Guild Wars 2

This is my review of the two blogs anet has put up regarding specializations Now it seems like a hate post but it’s not, its a warning to anet of what kind of problems will fall into the game if this isn’t stopped or at least seriously rethought and reworked..

1 line reduction:

So anet said that they will be limiting traits from 5 to 3 and merging ‘some’ traits together while moving or removing ‘useless’ traits.

The first problem with this is freeform builds, not everybody is compelled to spend 6 points to a line unless A: they want a grandmaster trait or B: they want to grab an extra adept or master trait. People who don’t spend 6 points in 2 lines will easilly be branching into 4-5 lines for their builds, collecting all the traits they feel makes their build special.

If anet hammers this change onto us we won’t be able to freeform build as much, because we will essentially be forced to spend 6/5/5 There won’t be any real freeform builds. Everyone will have to pick 3 lines then dedicate full into those lines while choosing just one of them to max out.

2 Trait ability choices:

As anyone can see in the image, we have a line connecting the dots, what was once a minor trait ability will now be a junction between our choices, that hasn’t changed.

BUT if you look at the sections between them, we have no more then 3 choices at those points in the line, 3 specific options, as you can see this line isn’t back tracking at all. That means if you max the bar out (which you don’t have much of a choice to with 3 lines) you’ll be only allowed to pick 1 out of 3 specific choices at each juncture no ability to make possibly unique combinations out of say 2 adept/master level choices, because you’ll be forced to accept a 1/3 choice each time.

This will completely limit us too a pool of options based on that juncture with no combination power at all with anything else in that pool like we currently have, plus if we see say 2 lines which traits we want but everything else in said line we view as not valuable to our builds we won’t have the option of spending there without having to put even more points into it which will give us traits we don’t want because of the 3 line limit and only 1 of them will be max which means no more double grandmaster trait builds so you are forced to choose just 1 and only 1 to include in your build.

3 Merged moved and removed traits:

We’ve been given some example of what traits might get merged, for the most part they seem ok.

HOWEVER we don’t know which traits are going to be merged together and which ones will be moved where and which ones hit the trash can.

A trait you love might get paired with a trait you think is absolutely useless cause you never bothered with it before while another trait you loved and used all the time gets moved someplace you cannot reach it or its simply taken away all together.

And thanks to the 3 line limitation and inability to combine traits from the same tier pool You won’t be able to pick and choose like you can currently. If the trait gets moved to a line you hate and is positioned high in it you’ll be fore to pick form traits you don’t like or ever use to obtain that one skill you know works for you.

Say you want a support build or your profession is bad at mitigating conditions you get, now normally you might spread your traits out to acquire several anti condition traits which could take points being spent in 4-5 lines easily depending on what you play. but with a 3 line limitation such things are completely denied too you.

You won’t be able to collect traits from various lines with careful spending to make a truly unique build that suites your play style, instead You’ll have to use whatever is shoved down your throat from a hard-lined limited option pool inside three specific lines.

Now i know some noticed the nine options they mentioned but it snot true, its three stages of a 1/3 choice, meaning that each time you can only pick one of that sections three choices and that’s it.

This is a grossly over limiting system compared to what we have right now, and a lot more builds will get killed off for it if this goes into the game.

4 Trai-er specialization vs specialization?~!:

Ok this is more then a little silly, arenanet said they want to eliminate confusion for new players, but this is gonna do the opposite.

Right now we have 5 lines called traits, but when this system goes up there will no longer be ‘traits’ at least in name, instead we are getting ‘specializations on top of our ’specialization’ that’s going to be unique to our profession.

Oh sure I know you’re gonna say but what was traits is now will be called CORE specializations while druid will be an ELITE specialization but here is what you’re not getting.

Doing this not only OVER uses the term/word specialization but will also cause confusion in events were players ask or refer to ‘specs’ and because its a a problem because of what I’m about to say next.

When anet first announced specializations we were all amazed and excited, some concerned of course, but one thing that wasn’t addressed then was how exactly we would be given access to them.

Thanks to these blogs we know now that instead of having some simple new UI toggle to flip between base profession and specialization profession we come to find that we are going to be forced into a tight hole.

That’s right, specializations like the druid won’t be so easily blended with current or future builds without some form of big brothering. So not only do we have to basically throw our builds through a shredder, then try and stitch new ones together via the 3 line restriction, we also have to decide weather or not we TRULY want our profession’s specialization, because all their skills the weapons and what not will be locked behind a special line we have to include in our three line choices.

A mesmer might say hey I wanna be a dueling domination illusionist toting a shield and making an utter mess of things NOPE stop right there, shield usage redistricted unless you forget one of those things, you can only be a [dueling chorno illusionist] or an [illusionary dominator of time] or a [chronological dueling dominator].

So on top of the 3 lines limiting our choices for builds it also severely restricts how we could play our specializations if we choose to take them. Specifically because they will be given to us in the from of trait lines which means if there is anything about it we want we have to sever an arm or a leg of our build to nit pick a few things out of it.

What we could be doing with specialization potential under the current system we have for builds is FAR better then what a 3 line limiter would allow us.

this reminds me badly of games like rift, where certain class/profession mechanics or skills were deemed required by content creators of the game. Even after selling the ‘play your way’ to get you in game, games like rift then continually dumped content on you that required specific builds in order to complete the content, and guilds especially had to go to great lengths to do this content because everyone had to bring an explicit build to the party.

If arenanet does this too us, we will have much of the same problem. because each of the lines won’t be dedicated purely too offense defense or support or such.

There has always been some measured mix of those things in each trait line even if its overall goal was one of them and retraining our options to 3 lines and making it so we can’t use our professions real specialization unless we sacrifice one of those lines to use it and be forced to use whatever trait choice sit offers us weather we want them or not is going to make the game more stagnant.

Even with stats removed from trait/core specialization lines we will still be given very few choices, we won’t be able to run three core lines and an elite line, we will have to choose, 3 core or 2 core and 1 elite.

Arenanet even said that the specializations would be toggle-able out of combat, but what of say two years down the road when every profession has 2 or more specializations will we be able to mix them together or will these things we be yet more walls restricting our choices of how we want to play in exchange for a new skill or weapon.

I for one don’t see this as a good call, I’d much rather have the real specializations restrained to a ui where i choose if its on/off and which spec it is rather then get my traits restricted to 3 lines and then be told i can’t use my spec unless I throw away one of those lines to access it.

But given heart of thorns has no release date yet hopefully arenanet will think it over before they drop the hammer on us. Because this is a bombshell of a change and it certainly is carrying more cons then pros into the game. Because as it stands my build will die just because of the 3 line limit, but when looking to specializations forget modifying/upgrading my build, its gonna get butchered just to even use the specialization my profession gets.

So there you have it, my feedback on this recent blog about specializations anet has dropped on us, I hope they read this and think hard and long before they make anything a fact of what will happen in heart of thorns because this is a very huge gamble right now at being a good call since it takes away a huge amount of player choice for builds.

That’s all I have to say, so hope you all have a good day and take care.

You really don’t have enough information to be saying anything negative about it. Also any developer that takes input from someone not familiar with a system is a terrible developer.

I have enough info to be positive about it because it completely divorces stats from traits.

silvermember.8941:

You really don’t have enough information to be saying anything negative about it. Also any developer that takes input from someone not familiar with a system is a terrible developer.

I have enough info to be positive about it because it completely divorces stats from traits.

You clealry A: didn’t read everything or B: clearly misread everything

I don’t have much issue with losing stats off trait lines my problem is the huge lose of build diversity being taken away form players who put hard work into their builds and will not be able to truly play how they want with three lines which will end up being nearly identical to other player show chose the same line due to the explicitly limited amount of choices inside that field.

So you are saying you want to be a special snowflake with a 14/14/14/14/14 build? Traits needed an overhaul years ago. Game balance needed an overhaul 3 years ago. This is potentially all good news.

Gyler.8150:

So you are saying you want to be a special snowflake with a 14/14/14/14/14 build? Traits needed an overhaul years ago. Game balance needed an overhaul 3 years ago. This is potentially all good news.

clearly you got it completely wrong, only an idiot wants to max all lines on a wide line choice.

What anet is doing is confining us to 3 lines, and those lines automatically are maxed or near maxed depending on whether you want 5/6/5 or 6/6/4 and options in each line is extremely limited, there won’t be any originality in builds nor diversity.

We currently don’t have lots of information so calm down.

What i read and see for myself i think its a nice thing a good turn to the right way.

This should have been the way to go from the start.

As an ele main for example, i have many useless traits, what we currectly have are 2 viable builds for pvp and pve, maybe this one will give us more diversity over becoming DPS or tanky or healer, etc.

Ranatoa.4869:

Galeskyring.9617:

This is my review of the two blogs anet has put up regarding specializations Now it seems like a hate post but it’s not, its a warning to anet of what kind of problems will fall into the game if this isn’t stopped or at least seriously rethought and reworked..

1 line reduction:

So anet said that they will be limiting traits from 5 to 3 and merging ‘some’ traits together while moving or removing ‘useless’ traits.

The first problem with this is freeform builds, not everybody is compelled to spend 6 points to a line unless A: they want a grandmaster trait or B: they want to grab an extra adept or master trait. People who don’t spend 6 points in 2 lines will easilly be branching into 4-5 lines for their builds, collecting all the traits they feel makes their build special.

If anet hammers this change onto us we won’t be able to freeform build as much, because we will essentially be forced to spend 6/5/5 There won’t be any real freeform builds. Everyone will have to pick 3 lines then dedicate full into those lines while choosing just one of them to max out.

More power! You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

So basically everyone is spending 6/6/6 not 6/5/5 as you suggest. Meaning we can max out 3 lines instead of the 2 we curgently can. Seeing as you can’t even read the very limited information we have available perhaps you should reserve judgement before writing a novel based on incorrect information…

Another person who didn’t bother to even read carefully why do you people strike my posts when you don’t stop to even understand what I just said.

This is MY FEEDBACK TO anet for what they posted and I’m not the only person unhappy here the forums are flooding with people unhappy about it because its going to robe them of their build diversity and force them to sit in a small cubical build with no real options on how to play.

Galeskyring.9617:

Gyler.8150:

So you are saying you want to be a special snowflake with a 14/14/14/14/14 build? Traits needed an overhaul years ago. Game balance needed an overhaul 3 years ago. This is potentially all good news.

clearly you got it completely wrong, only an idiot wants to max all lines on a wide line choice.

What anet is doing is confining us to 3 lines, and those lines automatically are maxed or near maxed depending on whether you want 5/6/5 or 6/6/4 and options in each line is extremely limited, there won’t be any originality in builds nor diversity.

You pick 3 lines now. There’s no chosing of how many points to put in. It’s always 6/6/6. Your choise now lies in which specializations you run and what traits you pick in the line.

You should re-read the whole articles, as clearly you’ve misinterpreted the first things they said already.

Yes, it limits choises. But your choises are more meaningful than they are now, thus actually giving more viable choises in the end. That is their idea.

eekzie.5640:

Galeskyring.9617:

Gyler.8150:

So you are saying you want to be a special snowflake with a 14/14/14/14/14 build? Traits needed an overhaul years ago. Game balance needed an overhaul 3 years ago. This is potentially all good news.

clearly you got it completely wrong, only an idiot wants to max all lines on a wide line choice.

What anet is doing is confining us to 3 lines, and those lines automatically are maxed or near maxed depending on whether you want 5/6/5 or 6/6/4 and options in each line is extremely limited, there won’t be any originality in builds nor diversity.

You pick 3 lines now. There’s no chosing of how many points to put in. It’s always 6/6/6. Your choise now lies in which specializations you run and what traits you pick in the line.

You should re-read the whole articles, as clearly you’ve misinterpreted the first things they said already.

]

stop posting, you didn’t read a word or understand it.

3 lines PERIOD 1 line max ALWAYS 2nd line is only maxed if you choose not to spend evenly on the last line and 2nd, that’s not really a choice, one line is always gonna be max and the other lines will either be even 5s or you lessen one to 4 to max a 2nd its not a true diversity.

Galeskyring.9617:

Ranatoa.4869:

Galeskyring.9617:

This is my review of the two blogs anet has put up regarding specializations Now it seems like a hate post but it’s not, its a warning to anet of what kind of problems will fall into the game if this isn’t stopped or at least seriously rethought and reworked..

1 line reduction:

So anet said that they will be limiting traits from 5 to 3 and merging ‘some’ traits together while moving or removing ‘useless’ traits.

The first problem with this is freeform builds, not everybody is compelled to spend 6 points to a line unless A: they want a grandmaster trait or B: they want to grab an extra adept or master trait. People who don’t spend 6 points in 2 lines will easilly be branching into 4-5 lines for their builds, collecting all the traits they feel makes their build special.

If anet hammers this change onto us we won’t be able to freeform build as much, because we will essentially be forced to spend 6/5/5 There won’t be any real freeform builds. Everyone will have to pick 3 lines then dedicate full into those lines while choosing just one of them to max out.

More power! You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

So basically everyone is spending 6/6/6 not 6/5/5 as you suggest. Meaning we can max out 3 lines instead of the 2 we curgently can. Seeing as you can’t even read the very limited information we have available perhaps you should reserve judgement before writing a novel based on incorrect information…

Another person who didn’t bother to even read carefully why do you people strike my posts when you don’t stop to even understand what I just said.

This is MY FEEDBACK TO anet for what they posted and I’m not the only person unhappy here the forums are flooding with people unhappy about it because its going to robe them of their build diversity and force them to sit in a small cubical build with no real options on how to play.

Because you didn’t bother to read and understand the original blog post. Half of your feedback is based on incorrect information.

Galeskyring.9617:

stop posting, you didn’t read a word or understand it.

3 lines PERIOD 1 line max ALWAYS 2nd line is only maxed if you choose not to spend evenly on the last line and 2nd, that’s not really a choice, one line is always gonna be max and the other lines will either be even 5s or you lessen one to 4 to max a 2nd its not a true diversity.

You’re wrong is what everyone is telling you. Re-read the article. 3 lines, yes… that’s what I said. You will unlock all 9 major traits. You will have 6/6/6 once you’ve unlocked it via the new Hero System. It’s right in the article.
Every line is maxed.

Galeskyring.9617:

stop posting, you didn’t read a word or understand it.

3 lines PERIOD 1 line max ALWAYS 2nd line is only maxed if you choose not to spend evenly on the last line and 2nd, that’s not really a choice, one line is always gonna be max and the other lines will either be even 5s or you lessen one to 4 to max a 2nd its not a true diversity.

You pulled this from where?.

Ranatoa.4869:

Galeskyring.9617:

Ranatoa.4869:

Galeskyring.9617:

This is my review of the two blogs anet has put up regarding specializations Now it seems like a hate post but it’s not, its a warning to anet of what kind of problems will fall into the game if this isn’t stopped or at least seriously rethought and reworked..

1 line reduction:

So anet said that they will be limiting traits from 5 to 3 and merging ‘some’ traits together while moving or removing ‘useless’ traits.

The first problem with this is freeform builds, not everybody is compelled to spend 6 points to a line unless A: they want a grandmaster trait or B: they want to grab an extra adept or master trait. People who don’t spend 6 points in 2 lines will easilly be branching into 4-5 lines for their builds, collecting all the traits they feel makes their build special.

If anet hammers this change onto us we won’t be able to freeform build as much, because we will essentially be forced to spend 6/5/5 There won’t be any real freeform builds. Everyone will have to pick 3 lines then dedicate full into those lines while choosing just one of them to max out.

More power! You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

So basically everyone is spending 6/6/6 not 6/5/5 as you suggest. Meaning we can max out 3 lines instead of the 2 we curgently can. Seeing as you can’t even read the very limited information we have available perhaps you should reserve judgement before writing a novel based on incorrect information…

Another person who didn’t bother to even read carefully why do you people strike my posts when you don’t stop to even understand what I just said.

This is MY FEEDBACK TO anet for what they posted and I’m not the only person unhappy here the forums are flooding with people unhappy about it because its going to robe them of their build diversity and force them to sit in a small cubical build with no real options on how to play.

Because you didn’t bother to read and understand the original blog post. Half of your feedback is based on incorrect information.

stop talking, you clearly don’t know what I’m saying.

We’re not going to lose build diversity, but we are going to lose some build types (and gain others.) There is a difference. If you are among the populace who will lose access to a certain type of build and you REALLY loved it, then that sucks and I’m sorry. But there will also be people who fall in love with a new build option, so balance will be preserved.

Also you do mention a lot in your comments how much we don’t know about how they are merging/culling traits, which is true. So it has equal potential to turn out awesome or horrible.

You say you want anet to read this and think about the consequences of going with these changes, but you need to understand these changes ARE happening. The exact execution of how may change, but they will occur. You’d be better spent identifying specific functionality you currently have in a class build and asking for/suggesting a way for it to exist in the new system (they have said they are trying to preserve as many builds as possible so make sure they are aware of yours.)

Let me post a quote from the blog post again since you appear to have missed it several times now…

More power! You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

Galeskyring.9617:

stop talking, you clearly don’t know what I’m saying.

Honor, Kindness, Patience, are Virtues; Virtues are practiced~ Loyalty & respect are earned

Regard others as you would normally, the internet is not justification for mistreating others

You see you’re looking at this all wrong. Forcing people into 3 lines instead of allowing people to spread their points around actually leads to more diversity between builds.

In the current system people spend their points in order to overcome as many weaknesses in their build as possible. This leads people taking very similar builds as to minimize their short comings.

In the new system you will have to make a decision as to what you character will be strong in and what he will be weaker in. This means there will be more skill involved as you will be strong in a few areas and have to make up your short comings in you build with skill rather than just picking traits to get yourself out of it. Alternatively, you will be forced to rely more on your team to make up for those short comings. This makes support builds actually viable in the game.

The new system should make your character weaker in a few areas. This is what leads to diverse builds in the community. Rather than everyone picking the go to build, they have to decide, do I want a max dps build, do I want to be harder to kill to hold points in PVP or do I want to be a support build to help keep the DPS up during dungeon fights.

Think about this, currently the go to build for pretty much every class is DPS. The reason for this is it’s too easy for a pure DPS build to get enough survivability while spreading out their points. If in the new system you have to sacrifice more of that survivability in order to get the best possible DPS then it will create incentive for other people to actually run a support build. As they will be needed in the team in order to make up the difference on the survivability of the DPS in the group.

This will actually make other builds viable in the system. Will this new system destroy some of the current builds? Most likely yes, and that is the beauty of it. People will be forced to come up with new builds in order to be relevant. This new system should allow more builds to be viable, rather than everyone just going straight DPS all the time.

So see, you’re just kind of looking at this all wrong my friend.

Ranatoa.4869:

Let me post a quote from the blog post again since you appear to have missed it several times now…

More power! You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

In addition:
In addition, there will be nine major traits tied to each specialization. There are three different tiers of traits: adept, master, and grandmaster. Once a specialization has been equipped, a character will be able to select a single trait for each tier to help customize that specialization

6/6/6. You get base traits in addition to 9 customized traits. Which means you get more traits than you do now….MORE!

The problem with people criticizing at this point is their relative view. All anyone has to reference back to is how the current system is set up. Until you understand the final system you can’t say anything of value. This is the time to read and learn, not write and try to give feedback.

It’s ludicrous to imagine that ANet is not already fully aware of every issue the players can imagine from what they’ve told us. They’re the ones who kittening designed the whole system!!

Who do you (everyone trying to give feedback right now) think you are that you can identify problems they haven’t been considering since before they even started implementing it?

Galeskyring.9617:

What anet is doing is confining us to 3 lines, and those lines automatically are maxed or near maxed depending on whether you want 5/6/5 or 6/6/4 and options in each line is extremely limited, there won’t be any originality in builds nor diversity.

For reference, each baseline profession will have 196,830 trait builds available to it, and each elite specialisation will add another 196,830 trait builds. Just the 393,660 trait builds this will give us for each profession at the launch of the expansion is enough that the game could grow its playerbase fivefold without there ever needing to be two people online with the same build.

The raw numbers say that build diversity and originality will be just fine, thanks.

And build diversity and originality aren’t even about the raw number of possible builds anyway. They’re about the number of builds that aren’t utterly worthless crap. That number is more likely to grow than not with the expansion, because a smaller raw number of choices means more attention given to each build, and thus a much smaller proportion of worthless crap.

EDIT: fixed a very incorrect statistic about the game’s playerbase.

Galeskyring.9617:

Thanks to these blogs we know now that instead of having some simple new UI toggle to flip between base profession and specialization profession we come to find that we are going to be forced into a tight hole.

That’s right, specializations like the druid won’t be so easily blended with current or future builds without some form of big brothering. So not only do we have to basically throw our builds through a shredder, then try and stitch new ones together via the 3 line restriction, we also have to decide weather or not we TRULY want our profession’s specialization, because all their skills the weapons and what not will be locked behind a special line we have to include in our three line choices.

A mesmer might say hey I wanna be a dueling domination illusionist toting a shield and making an utter mess of things NOPE stop right there, shield usage redistricted unless you forget one of those things, you can only be a [dueling chorno illusionist] or an [illusionary dominator of time] or a [chronological dueling dominator].

So on top of the 3 lines limiting our choices for builds it also severely restricts how we could play our specializations if we choose to take them. Specifically because they will be given to us in the from of trait lines which means if there is anything about it we want we have to sever an arm or a leg of our build to nit pick a few things out of it.

I don’t know why you are complaining about this now. They said from Day 1 that specializations would be a trade off—that you might want to be a Druid one day and Ranger the next, and now we know why. It was always stated that gaining the new spec meant losing something from the original class. The good news is, you still get to pick which specs you want to combine with the new Elite spec line, instead of the new trait line replacing the old class trait line, as some speculated.

It isn’t obvious that build diversity will be reduced in practice, even if the possible number of mathematical combinations is reduced.

It is similar to the GW1 vs GW2 problem – GW1 had more possible builds in theory, but in practice most were trash.

Much hinges on having more viable traits for each slot.

Galeskyring.9617:

Ranatoa.4869:

Galeskyring.9617:

Ranatoa.4869:

Galeskyring.9617:

This is my review of the two blogs anet has put up regarding specializations Now it seems like a hate post but it’s not, its a warning to anet of what kind of problems will fall into the game if this isn’t stopped or at least seriously rethought and reworked..

1 line reduction:

So anet said that they will be limiting traits from 5 to 3 and merging ‘some’ traits together while moving or removing ‘useless’ traits.

The first problem with this is freeform builds, not everybody is compelled to spend 6 points to a line unless A: they want a grandmaster trait or B: they want to grab an extra adept or master trait. People who don’t spend 6 points in 2 lines will easilly be branching into 4-5 lines for their builds, collecting all the traits they feel makes their build special.

If anet hammers this change onto us we won’t be able to freeform build as much, because we will essentially be forced to spend 6/5/5 There won’t be any real freeform builds. Everyone will have to pick 3 lines then dedicate full into those lines while choosing just one of them to max out.

More power! You now get to select nine major traits instead of seven, including three grandmaster traits.

So basically everyone is spending 6/6/6 not 6/5/5 as you suggest. Meaning we can max out 3 lines instead of the 2 we curgently can. Seeing as you can’t even read the very limited information we have available perhaps you should reserve judgement before writing a novel based on incorrect information…

Another person who didn’t bother to even read carefully why do you people strike my posts when you don’t stop to even understand what I just said.

This is MY FEEDBACK TO anet for what they posted and I’m not the only person unhappy here the forums are flooding with people unhappy about it because its going to robe them of their build diversity and force them to sit in a small cubical build with no real options on how to play.

Because you didn’t bother to read and understand the original blog post. Half of your feedback is based on incorrect information.

stop talking, you clearly don’t know what I’m saying.

You misread the article, just accept it and adjust your views accordingly. Everyone will pick 3 trait lines and those 3 trait lines WILL get maxed out. You get 3 of each adept, master, and grand master traits in EACH line.

If you are going to complain about it, please base your complaints about the facts that were pointed out, not what you thought it said.

Edit: you get 3 of each, not 2. my bad.

MiniEquine.6014:

You misread the article, just accept it and adjust your views accordingly. Everyone will pick 3 trait lines and those 3 trait lines WILL get maxed out. You get 2 of each adept, master, and grand master traits in EACH line.

Exactly. The reason the pictures in the blog post look show a line stopping at the fourth or fifth trait of a specialisation rather than extending all the way to the sixth is that that player doesn’t have all of the traits for that specialisation unlocked via hero points yet.

@Galeskyring:
I think you SERIOUSLY misunderstood the info presented by ANet.

This is what I understood:
-You have 5 available trait lines, same as now
-You pick and fully progress 3 of these lines, and ignore the remaining 2
-You get 3 predetermined minors from each trait line
-You pick 1 major, adept, and grandmaster for each of the 3 trait line, for a total of 9 traits
-Stats are no longer linked to trait lines
-Elite Specialization will replace a specific trait line

Pros:
-Each trait will supposedly be more viable and competitive = greater build variety
-No more wonky stat lines associated with the trees = greater build freedom
-Creates a solid foundation = additional specializations can be easily added going forward

Cons:
-Less options at each individual selection – However one might argue that 3 viable choices is better than 1 viable choice and 5 useless choices.

-Slightly less freedom to dive halfway into multiple trait lines – Again, one could argue that the stat removal adds more freedom than this takes away, for an overall net gain in build freedom

Honestly, I’m very optimistic about this news. The system seems fun from a build perspective, balanced (or easily rebalancable… is that a word?) from a mechanical perspective, and scalable from an future content perspective.

Yes there are drawbacks, but I feel the overall result is a MUCH better system than whats currently in place.

Instead of everyone hammering on Gale, look at what it means for builds.

Yes, there IS a possibility of more build diversity by divorcing stats from traits, BUT how many people max out, say Air Magic for the Precision, rather than Fresh Air? I’d wager most people select traits based on the trait, not stats, so that’s a non-issue.

The main point as I see it is that this flowchart style of trait selection won’t allow players to “double up” on traits as we’ve done in the past. Slotting a Master level trait in a Grandmaster slot has been common practice because many traits are useless, non-functional, or both. Players also tend to spread out trait points, for the express purpose of maxing DPS, survivability or both, usually ending up with builds that max one line at 6, have another (or two) at 4, and a couple with 2. Sometimes going 1, 3 or 5 points is also acceptable, and even optimal based on what traits are selected.

Now what this means at launch and in the long run is that ANet is going to have to re-work and re-balance EVERY single selectable trait in every single traitline for every single profession to make selecting 1 out of 3 traits a meaningful choice. If one has to choose between a 20% damage/<33% health trait like Bolt to the Heart and a Precision converted to Healing Power: 7% trait like Soothing Winds, its not much of a choice.

With their current and past track record of, for lack of a better term, “mishandling” profession balance and bug fixes, I don’t have a lot of hope that yet another new system of progressive unlocking is either viable or healthy for the game. The NPE was a clear mistake, and rather than just revert to the original system which, as far as I know, no one complained about, we’re getting ANOTHER system that likely won’t be playtested, come with multiple bugs, and may make balancing professions even more of a nightmare, AND take longer between iterative patches.

So while I hold out hope for ANet, pragmatically I can’t believe they’re serious. Its a nice GUI (maybe someone’s been playing a little FF), but functionality of traits should be paramount.

Kaleban.9834:

Instead of everyone hammering on Gale, look at what it means for builds.

Yes, there IS a possibility of more build diversity by divorcing stats from traits, BUT how many people max out, say Air Magic for the Precision, rather than Fresh Air? I’d wager most people select traits based on the trait, not stats, so that’s a non-issue.

The main point as I see it is that this flowchart style of trait selection won’t allow players to “double up” on traits as we’ve done in the past. Slotting a Master level trait in a Grandmaster slot has been common practice because many traits are useless, non-functional, or both. Players also tend to spread out trait points, for the express purpose of maxing DPS, survivability or both, usually ending up with builds that max one line at 6, have another (or two) at 4, and a couple with 2. Sometimes going 1, 3 or 5 points is also acceptable, and even optimal based on what traits are selected.

Now what this means at launch and in the long run is that ANet is going to have to re-work and re-balance EVERY single selectable trait in every single traitline for every single profession to make selecting 1 out of 3 traits a meaningful choice. If one has to choose between a 20% damage/<33% health trait like Bolt to the Heart and a Precision converted to Healing Power: 7% trait like Soothing Winds, its not much of a choice.

With their current and past track record of, for lack of a better term, “mishandling” profession balance and bug fixes, I don’t have a lot of hope that yet another new system of progressive unlocking is either viable or healthy for the game. The NPE was a clear mistake, and rather than just revert to the original system which, as far as I know, no one complained about, we’re getting ANOTHER system that likely won’t be playtested, come with multiple bugs, and may make balancing professions even more of a nightmare, AND take longer between iterative patches.

So while I hold out hope for ANet, pragmatically I can’t believe they’re serious. Its a nice GUI (maybe someone’s been playing a little FF), but functionality of traits should be paramount.

THANK YOU! someone who understands!

I read the blog posts. Twice. My summary:

What?

So confused.

What it sounds like is a player has to have a Grandmaster trait and cannot slot an additional Master Trait, as we do now in many build choices – because some of the Grandmaster traits are horrible.

Also, it sounds like a player cannot have more than 3 trait lines active. So, you cannot slot 2 points in a 4th trait line to get something from it you want (Say Ele’s, Blasting Staff, or Engineer’s Speedy Kits). We are constrained to 3 trait lines.

I see so much potential in the new system since it means a rework of all skills since they are getting a type and all traits. We can finally see some useless traits rolled in or changed in favour of better ones.

To me the new system seems streamlined and worthy and a great opportunity for Anet to balance the game! Also stats not being tied to trains means better build diversity and state diversity. You can get traits and no longer be lumbered with useless stats that ccoe with the line. It all makes sense to me. ets just see how they rework each trait line and class first before.

Only downsince is you must pick 3 instead of ranging between all 5 as you can and some builds do now, like meta medi guard. steamlined but hey you win some you ls some. in some cases its more free and its other its more restrictive but it should allow for better balance and trait introduction so we could potentially see them adding new specs all together thats arent elite specs.

Galeskyring.9617:

Kaleban.9834:

Instead of everyone hammering on Gale, look at what it means for builds.

Yes, there IS a possibility of more build diversity by divorcing stats from traits, BUT how many people max out, say Air Magic for the Precision, rather than Fresh Air? I’d wager most people select traits based on the trait, not stats, so that’s a non-issue.

The main point as I see it is that this flowchart style of trait selection won’t allow players to “double up” on traits as we’ve done in the past. Slotting a Master level trait in a Grandmaster slot has been common practice because many traits are useless, non-functional, or both. Players also tend to spread out trait points, for the express purpose of maxing DPS, survivability or both, usually ending up with builds that max one line at 6, have another (or two) at 4, and a couple with 2. Sometimes going 1, 3 or 5 points is also acceptable, and even optimal based on what traits are selected.

Now what this means at launch and in the long run is that ANet is going to have to re-work and re-balance EVERY single selectable trait in every single traitline for every single profession to make selecting 1 out of 3 traits a meaningful choice. If one has to choose between a 20% damage/<33% health trait like Bolt to the Heart and a Precision converted to Healing Power: 7% trait like Soothing Winds, its not much of a choice.

With their current and past track record of, for lack of a better term, “mishandling” profession balance and bug fixes, I don’t have a lot of hope that yet another new system of progressive unlocking is either viable or healthy for the game. The NPE was a clear mistake, and rather than just revert to the original system which, as far as I know, no one complained about, we’re getting ANOTHER system that likely won’t be playtested, come with multiple bugs, and may make balancing professions even more of a nightmare, AND take longer between iterative patches.

So while I hold out hope for ANet, pragmatically I can’t believe they’re serious. Its a nice GUI (maybe someone’s been playing a little FF), but functionality of traits should be paramount.

THANK YOU! someone who understands!

An example of this is the common Medi Guardian Build 0/1/6/1/6. In this build it is not unusual to use an adept or master trait in the grandmaster slot on the last line (Virtues).

Sometimes as a player you don’t want to use all six points in a line because the grandmaster slot isn’t worth it, even if there are 12 choices.
Now it seems we will be forced into using 6 points, and in the grandmaster slot, we will only be able to choose one of three (unless I’m reading it wrong, which is a strong possibility).

These changes are eerily similar to the changes made in WOW to their talent trees.

Why people on forum keep complaining about EVERYTHING, I’m disgusted.

This is pointless, reread the blog post…trait points will be non-existent…that is one of the reasons they’re going from 5 -3 trait lines. Also, if you had bothered to read both blog posts, when you chose your Elite specialization you can chose to use the other 2 trait lines that you couldn’t use the first time. You can choose 3 of the 5 lines, without having to put points in them…that is what it says. The rest you can argue about until you’re blue in the face.

Galeskyring.9617:

I for one don’t see this as a good call, I’d much rather have the real specializations restrained to a ui where i choose if its on/off and which spec it is rather then get my traits restricted to 3 lines and then be told i can’t use my spec unless I throw away one of those lines to access it.

Then why would you ever turn it off? In that case, Anet would unlock the weapon as part of the regular profession and be done with it.

An elite customization doesn’t just give you a new weapon to bash skulls with. It directly adds to your weapon skills, heal spell, utilities, elite spell and traits. It’s a meaningful choice you need to make when building your character.

So, yes, it replaces a trait line because you choose to build your character like that. And it’s for the better. For example, someone brought up a good point in the engi forums that wielding a hammer as an Engineer means you lose ranged pressure. The new bonuses that come with the specialization can help alleviate that.

Kenwe.8314:

You see you’re looking at this all wrong. Forcing people into 3 lines instead of allowing people to spread their points around actually leads to more diversity between builds.

In the current system people spend their points in order to overcome as many weaknesses in their build as possible. This leads people taking very similar builds as to minimize their short comings.

This is true. Champions Online, for example, let you mix and match skills from different power trees (a rough equivalent of other MMOs’ classes) to make a build, with only minor restrictions for stronger skills, like picking 2 skills for the same tree as a prerequisite.

While it seems like it would enable build diversity, it only led to cookie-cutter “tankmage” builds. Similarly:

Kaleban.9834:

Players also tend to spread out trait points, for the express purpose of maxing DPS, survivability or both, usually ending up with builds that max one line at 6, have another (or two) at 4, and a couple with 2. Sometimes going 1, 3 or 5 points is also acceptable, and even optimal based on what traits are selected.

It’s this mentality that creates min-max builds, and makes specialized build unattractive.

Galeskyring.9617:

What anet is doing is confining us to 3 lines, and those lines automatically are maxed or near maxed depending on whether you want 5/6/5 or 6/6/4 and options in each line is extremely limited, there won’t be any originality in builds nor diversity.

Considering you get 6/6/6?
Probably not taking advice from ya. Just sayin’.

It ties into the rebalancing of the traits, which from the look they’re substantially reworking, to the point of sometimes making the trait just part of the base skill.

They’re also explicitly making an effort to preserve existing builds that might be impossible in this setup — although I’d wager a lot of these little things (eg 1/6/1/6) aren’t as necessary for the build as people think.

Their challenge is to make each tier in each chosen line a meaningful, dramatic choice. Right now, there tends to be a whole bunch of choice that means very little… so many dead traits.

Zaklex.6308:

This is pointless, reread the blog post…trait points will be non-existent…that is one of the reasons they’re going from 5 -3 trait lines. Also, if you had bothered to read both blog posts, when you chose your Elite specialization you can chose to use the other 2 trait lines that you couldn’t use the first time. You can choose 3 of the 5 lines, without having to put points in them…that is what it says. The rest you can argue about until you’re blue in the face.

Hmm…I don’t understand this. Whether there are points to spend or not, you still are forced to use traits in only those 3 lines you choose. Whereas now you can diversify into all five. That’s why so many are upset.

Also, it appears there will be only nine major traits per line, and yet you can only choose one of three per tier.

Anet, please do add this new system, it looks better then the current one and should enable more builds then it invalidates. Thanks.

Sauncho.8076:

Zaklex.6308:

This is pointless, reread the blog post…trait points will be non-existent…that is one of the reasons they’re going from 5 -3 trait lines. Also, if you had bothered to read both blog posts, when you chose your Elite specialization you can chose to use the other 2 trait lines that you couldn’t use the first time. You can choose 3 of the 5 lines, without having to put points in them…that is what it says. The rest you can argue about until you’re blue in the face.

Hmm…I don’t understand this. Whether there are points to spend or not, you still are forced to use traits in only those 3 lines you choose. Whereas now you can diversify into all five. That’s why so many are upset.

Also, it appears there will be only nine major traits per line, and yet you can only choose one of three per tier.

I’d somewhat agree with you. A few of my character builds tend to dip in and out of trait lines to gain access to a few gems, thus sacrificing some specialization to get a desired effect. My Warrior can’t use full Strength, some Arms and vary points into Defense/Discipline. Now I have to decide do I want Defense line or Discipline.

BUT, l looking further into my build, rather than see what I can’t do, examine WHY I did what I did…

Strength, I max for the trait Burst Precision as well as either Slashing Power if I’m usuing my power build or whatever else if I’m using my hybrid power/condi build. The extra damage from the stats help for damage as do the minor traits but the rest of the line is more or less a necessity for BP.

Arms, I don’t care much for the GM traits so only go 2 major which are crucial. For the bleed on crit/bleed duration/damage bonus for sword on my hybrid build or Crack Shot/Forceful Greatsword on my power build. The minor traits are a bit wasted though.

Defense, also crucial, as being able to drop in Dogged March has saved me tons of escapes, Cleansing Ire and/or Sure Footed brings flavor to his build…

Discipline is usually there for the extra ferocity when using a power build + warrior’s sprint or signet mastery.

Now, with the de-coupling of the stats from the traits, that removes part of the reason I use Discipline and devalues Strength line a bit since my hybrid likely doesn’t need the strength tree at all. I could forsee going full into arms (no 100% crit on bursts which might hurt a bit but gives me access to other things such as increased crit on bursts. I might be able to turn his build into a quickness build instead!

With the power build, I might lose out on either discipline or defense but I stand to gain more than I lose. Slower recharges for my weapon swap, signets or slower run for a variety of defensive options such as Defy Pain or maybe Spiked Armor if they make it not suck!

With the ability to equip 3 grandmaster traits (especially if they are improved), that trumps practically all minor diversions into another trait line. As far as losing the ability to use multiple master/adept traits, that’s yet to be seen. I’m not 100% sure that was even stated.

All I can say is I’m optimistic but I’d like to wait and see what develops.

Leo G.4501:

Sauncho.8076:

Zaklex.6308:

This is pointless, reread the blog post…trait points will be non-existent…that is one of the reasons they’re going from 5 -3 trait lines. Also, if you had bothered to read both blog posts, when you chose your Elite specialization you can chose to use the other 2 trait lines that you couldn’t use the first time. You can choose 3 of the 5 lines, without having to put points in them…that is what it says. The rest you can argue about until you’re blue in the face.

Hmm…I don’t understand this. Whether there are points to spend or not, you still are forced to use traits in only those 3 lines you choose. Whereas now you can diversify into all five. That’s why so many are upset.

Also, it appears there will be only nine major traits per line, and yet you can only choose one of three per tier.

I’d somewhat agree with you. A few of my character builds tend to dip in and out of trait lines to gain access to a few gems, thus sacrificing some specialization to get a desired effect. My Warrior can’t use full Strength, some Arms and vary points into Defense/Discipline. Now I have to decide do I want Defense line or Discipline.

BUT, l looking further into my build, rather than see what I can’t do, examine WHY I did what I did…

Strength, I max for the trait Burst Precision as well as either Slashing Power if I’m usuing my power build or whatever else if I’m using my hybrid power/condi build. The extra damage from the stats help for damage as do the minor traits but the rest of the line is more or less a necessity for BP.

Arms, I don’t care much for the GM traits so only go 2 major which are crucial. For the bleed on crit/bleed duration/damage bonus for sword on my hybrid build or Crack Shot/Forceful Greatsword on my power build. The minor traits are a bit wasted though.

Defense, also crucial, as being able to drop in Dogged March has saved me tons of escapes, Cleansing Ire and/or Sure Footed brings flavor to his build…

Discipline is usually there for the extra ferocity when using a power build + warrior’s sprint or signet mastery.

Now, with the de-coupling of the stats from the traits, that removes part of the reason I use Discipline and devalues Strength line a bit since my hybrid likely doesn’t need the strength tree at all. I could forsee going full into arms (no 100% crit on bursts which might hurt a bit but gives me access to other things such as increased crit on bursts. I might be able to turn his build into a quickness build instead!

With the power build, I might lose out on either discipline or defense but I stand to gain more than I lose. Slower recharges for my weapon swap, signets or slower run for a variety of defensive options such as Defy Pain or maybe Spiked Armor if they make it not suck!

With the ability to equip 3 grandmaster traits (especially if they are improved), that trumps practically all minor diversions into another trait line. As far as losing the ability to use multiple master/adept traits, that’s yet to be seen. I’m not 100% sure that was even stated.

All I can say is I’m optimistic but I’d like to wait and see what develops.

I can appreciate the optimism in ANET’s ability to deliver on three worthwhile grandmasters. I, on the other hankitten ot so optimistic based on the last three years and having main’d a guardian. There was on only one grand master I ever used, Monk’s Focus. Now, I will be forced to use 3 GMs, even if I’d rather use an adept or major from a 4th/5th line.

Kaleban.9834:

Instead of everyone hammering on Gale, look at what it means for builds.

It will decrease the raw number of possible builds. This does not mean less build diversity, because build diversity is a lot more complicated than that. It does, however, mean an easier time balancing things in the long run, because having fewer combinations means that it’s harder to overlook things that might be problematic.

Now what this means at launch and in the long run is that ANet is going to have to re-work and re-balance EVERY single selectable trait in every single traitline for every single profession to make selecting 1 out of 3 traits a meaningful choice. If one has to choose between a 20% damage/<33% health trait like Bolt to the Heart and a Precision converted to Healing Power: 7% trait like Soothing Winds, its not much of a choice.

This is, however, work that only has to be done once. It’s short-term stuff, not long-term.

may make balancing professions even more of a nightmare, AND take longer between iterative patches.

It won’t. See above.

Balance is basically the whole point of this change, aside from the elite specialisations, which are there to expand the individual professions without creating too many new combinations to worry about.

I like the proposed system if they can make the choices better at each progressive lvl.
Right now we have lots of builds that take multiple adept traits in master slots and master traits in grandmaster slots. Lots of that is from so many traits being.. bad

They’re taking away the option for us to do this which seems icky to me mostly because they have a horrible track record of always making good new traits.

But hey! We havnt seen anything so who really knows…

Gale, I really do not think you read the blog post carefully. Yeah losing the ability to take various minor traits sucks but we don’t even know whats going baseline and what is not. An example being thrown around is losing fast hands on warrior, but anet confirmed that alot of the old traits are going baseline, so until we know what is baseline and what isn’t we can’t really begin to speculate on what builds are going away.

I also think people are making a kittenumption in that the current 3 Grandmaster traits in any line will be the 3 grandmaster traits in HoT. Considering it seems like anet wants to make the major traits (ones we pick) compelling choices I’m sure that some of the weaker traits will be either reworked or removed and replaced.

evilunderling.9265:

This is, however, work that only has to be done once. It’s short-term stuff, not long-term.

How long has the game been out? Traits, skills, even core profession mechanics are still unbalanced, bugged or flat out broken.

If ANet can’t balance/fix the base game after two and a half years, how much confidence do you honestly have that they’ll be able to introduce a new system, revamp the old one, and fix/balance it all upon HoT release?

Kaleban.9834:

evilunderling.9265:

This is, however, work that only has to be done once. It’s short-term stuff, not long-term.

How long has the game been out? Traits, skills, even core profession mechanics are still unbalanced, bugged or flat out broken.

If ANet can’t balance/fix the base game after two and a half years, how much confidence do you honestly have that they’ll be able to introduce a new system, revamp the old one, and fix/balance it all upon HoT release?

How are they going to balance/fix the game if you don’t want them to make changes? The old system needed more than a few number tweaks.

Kaleban.9834:

If ANet can’t balance/fix the base game after two and a half years, how much confidence do you honestly have that they’ll be able to introduce a new system, revamp the old one, and fix/balance it all upon HoT release?

1. Bug fixing is not the same thing as skill design and balancing, so you’re already inflating the scale of the problems you describe.
2. They launched the game in the first place, which is itself a pretty massive undertaking and far bigger than most of the subsequent work they’ve done.
3. Again, this is a system that’s specifically designed to make the balancing work easier.

Unfortunately “dumbing down” the way a game works just seems to be a formula all game developers follow in games that have any type of longevity (mainly MMOS). At the end of Guild Wars 1 people didn’t even know what Capture Signets were used for.

This continues to happen to World of Warcraft, and I hate to see it happen in GW2. The perceptions of “meta” is only perception. I know a lot of people that build their professions very Uniquely, and enjoy playing them that way. Eliminating choices, is eliminating customization, elimination of customization creates meta builds, creating meta builds makes every ones profession play the same as everyone else. I am strongly against that. I do not feel people who play this type of game, even new players need the system to be simplified. Nor do I see the system as being overly complex or confusing. I for one would enjoy more choices to be honest.

To be fair the Guild Wars team usually comes through, so perhaps looking at this information on the surface I am not seeing the big picture.