Guild Wars 2

Hi Anet just to let you know you have ruined guild wars (in my eyes) with this new expansion and have made the game Pay to win/Pay to Expand. The fact that classes people have never played before or even for a few minutes can just spam skills and do mass amounts of damage while being sustainable is a joke.I know you may change this but you can’t nerf these classes hard enough to lose against Original Tyrian gw2 without an unfair advantage. Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason of you guys trying to make more money but making the game worse. Just an opinion pls post all your thought below ty.

If this game is pay to win then every MMO expansion for every game is pay to win. Not really what the term was meant to designate.

Pay to win was when you had to continually use microtransactions to stay current. Look up games like Maple Story. This game is not P2W. They’re selling an expansion.

In just about every MMO expansions raise the level cap, and you need to buy them to compete. Not sure why you think this is different.

Again?

Vayne.8563:

If this game is pay to win then every MMO expansion for every game is pay to win. Not really what the term was meant to designate.

Pay to win was when you had to continually use microtransactions to stay current. Look up games like Maple Story. This game is not P2W. They’re selling an expansion.

In just about every MMO expansions raise the level cap, and you need to buy them to compete. Not sure why you think this is different.

I have played maplestory for plenty of time and this expansion is exactly the same, its just not as extreme as what Maplestory is. it’s okay to defend the expansion if you clearly purchased it but you gotta face the facts

nickoboy.2063:

Vayne.8563:

If this game is pay to win then every MMO expansion for every game is pay to win. Not really what the term was meant to designate.

Pay to win was when you had to continually use microtransactions to stay current. Look up games like Maple Story. This game is not P2W. They’re selling an expansion.

In just about every MMO expansions raise the level cap, and you need to buy them to compete. Not sure why you think this is different.

I have played maplestory for plenty of time and this expansion is exactly the same, its just not as extreme as what Maplestory is. it’s okay to defend the expansion if you clearly purchased it but you gotta face the facts

Yes, I am facing the facts. The fact is there’s a difference between cash shop purchases and selling an expansion.

Is WoW pay to win? Because every expansion in that game raises the level cap.

The game is buy to play. It was always supposed to be a series of games that you bought, instead of paying a sub. That’s the business plan of the game.

By your reckoning, Anet could never add anything to the game that might give power, unless they gave it to everyone. In my reckoning that’s a failed business right there.

If you can’t tell the difference between an expansion for a game that sells once, three years after the game comes out and Maple Story there’s not a whole lot of point in continuing this conversation.

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

Vayne.8563:

Yes, I am facing the facts. The fact is there’s a difference between cash shop purchases and selling an expansion.

Is WoW pay to win? Because every expansion in that game raises the level cap.

The game is buy to play. It was always supposed to be a series of games that you bought, instead of paying a sub. That’s the business plan of the game.

By your reckoning, Anet could never add anything to the game that might give power, unless they gave it to everyone. In my reckoning that’s a failed business right there.

If you can’t tell the difference between an expansion for a game that sells once, three years after the game comes out and Maple Story there’s not a whole lot of point in continuing this conversation.

Well it’s flirting on the line if you ask me. An expansion should add content and give more option. That’s what they were telling us and that’s what we were expecting. The problem is not the expansion itself, it’s the power creep from the elite specs. It was a big debate pre-HoT. People were fearing that elite spec would be elite and would toss aside vanilla profession. I was of those who were defending Anet since they said that elite spec would be new ways to play the game, not just improved version of profession. And I was wrong because they are.

You can see it. In PvP, the vast majority of build are elite spec. Same with PvE. You don’t want elite spec to be bad so ya of course you want some of them to be meta, but ALL of them?

As for your question. If Anet could never add anything to the game that might give power, unless they gave it to everyone.

I answer that they should never add anything to the game that might make a power creep. Balancing profession yes. But not power creep.

You could say, hey lets upgrade the dps of the necro because it’s lower than most.

You could say, hey let’s make tempest improve condi ele since it’s wasn’t competitive.

But when tempest add dps to the direct damage elementalist, that’s when you brough Power Creep and it’s never a good idea that you give it to everyone or behind the expansion. But behind the expansion is ever worst.

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

Or just didn’t bother with 95% of it, even though they bought it; you’re welcome ANet. I bought it, but I am not happy with the direction they took with it, so I am playing something else.

Hint: it is more horizontal.

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

And your quantitative data showing most players have stopped playing is where?

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, I am facing the facts. The fact is there’s a difference between cash shop purchases and selling an expansion.

Is WoW pay to win? Because every expansion in that game raises the level cap.

The game is buy to play. It was always supposed to be a series of games that you bought, instead of paying a sub. That’s the business plan of the game.

By your reckoning, Anet could never add anything to the game that might give power, unless they gave it to everyone. In my reckoning that’s a failed business right there.

If you can’t tell the difference between an expansion for a game that sells once, three years after the game comes out and Maple Story there’s not a whole lot of point in continuing this conversation.

Well it’s flirting on the line if you ask me. An expansion should add content and give more option. That’s what they were telling us and that’s what we were expecting. The problem is not the expansion itself, it’s the power creep from the elite specs. It was a big debate pre-HoT. People were fearing that elite spec would be elite and would toss aside vanilla profession. I was of those who were defending Anet since they said that elite spec would be new ways to play the game, not just improved version of profession. And I was wrong because they are.

You can see it. In PvP, the vast majority of build are elite spec. Same with PvE. You don’t want elite spec to be bad so ya of course you want some of them to be meta, but ALL of them?

As for your question. If Anet could never add anything to the game that might give power, unless they gave it to everyone.

I answer that they should never add anything to the game that might make a power creep. Balancing profession yes. But not power creep.

You could say, hey lets upgrade the dps of the necro because it’s lower than most.

You could say, hey let’s make tempest improve condi ele since it’s wasn’t competitive.

But when tempest add dps to the direct damage elementalist, that’s when you brough Power Creep and it’s never a good idea that you give it to everyone or behind the expansion. But behind the expansion is ever worst.

I disagree. I played Guild Wars 1 too, which was also buy to play and there was definitely power creep in that game as well. People want to feel like they’re progressing. It’s very hard to do that without making them a bit more powerful. That said, it’s not TONS more powerful in most cases.

Then you have necros, which were less powerful over all and now have a spec they can use.

It’s simply more complex an image than you’re painting it.

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne.8563:

Yes, I am facing the facts. The fact is there’s a difference between cash shop purchases and selling an expansion.

Is WoW pay to win? Because every expansion in that game raises the level cap.

The game is buy to play. It was always supposed to be a series of games that you bought, instead of paying a sub. That’s the business plan of the game.

By your reckoning, Anet could never add anything to the game that might give power, unless they gave it to everyone. In my reckoning that’s a failed business right there.

If you can’t tell the difference between an expansion for a game that sells once, three years after the game comes out and Maple Story there’s not a whole lot of point in continuing this conversation.

Well it’s flirting on the line if you ask me. An expansion should add content and give more option. That’s what they were telling us and that’s what we were expecting. The problem is not the expansion itself, it’s the power creep from the elite specs. It was a big debate pre-HoT. People were fearing that elite spec would be elite and would toss aside vanilla profession. I was of those who were defending Anet since they said that elite spec would be new ways to play the game, not just improved version of profession. And I was wrong because they are.

You can see it. In PvP, the vast majority of build are elite spec. Same with PvE. You don’t want elite spec to be bad so ya of course you want some of them to be meta, but ALL of them?

As for your question. If Anet could never add anything to the game that might give power, unless they gave it to everyone.

I answer that they should never add anything to the game that might make a power creep. Balancing profession yes. But not power creep.

You could say, hey lets upgrade the dps of the necro because it’s lower than most.

You could say, hey let’s make tempest improve condi ele since it’s wasn’t competitive.

But when tempest add dps to the direct damage elementalist, that’s when you brough Power Creep and it’s never a good idea that you give it to everyone or behind the expansion. But behind the expansion is ever worst.

Would you consider the Guild Wars 1 standalone campaigns and expansion P2W?

Ayrilana.1396:

Would you consider the Guild Wars 1 standalone campaigns and expansion P2W?

I didn’t play GW1 so I can’t answer that. And tbh I don’t care about labelling any game as P2W, B2P or whatever. My only point is Elite Spec should have been equal in power to the core specs and not so much more powerful like they are now. That’s my only point here.

Vayne.8563:

I disagree. I played Guild Wars 1 too, which was also buy to play and there was definitely power creep in that game as well. People want to feel like they’re progressing. It’s very hard to do that without making them a bit more powerful. That said, it’s not TONS more powerful in most cases.

Then you have necros, which were less powerful over all and now have a spec they can use.

It’s simply more complex an image than you’re painting it.

I’m just gonna leave that here.

Power Creep is a very bad design decision. You said it yourself.

‘’People want to feel like they’re progressing. It’s very hard to do that without making them a bit more powerful.’’

Power creep is an easy way to achieve that, but it have a lot of bad side effects on the game, especially on the long run. Think about it for a second.

My guardian used to do around 6-7k dps back at launch with level 80 full exotic gear. And I’m talking with full buffs on. Now? We are doing more around 18k and we one of the worst dps profession. Lupi which was one of the biggest boss at launch with 1 or 2 million HP is ridiculous compare to the 20+ millions hp from raid boss. People complained that dungeon were way too easy. That’s what happen when you can explode mobs in second bypassing their mechanics.

Again like you said, it’s complex. Some buffing is needed. Some profession are weak in certain content and certain build are weak for certain professions. That’s where elite spec should have buffed their profession. Not buff everything into a power creep.

I wouldn’t mind if elite specs were slightly better, but some of them are completely broken. Anyone who has played the game since HoT would surely agree with that. It really ruins the pvp experience.

Thaddeus.4891:

Some buffing is needed. Some profession are weak in certain content and certain build are weak for certain professions. That’s where elite spec should have buffed their profession. Not buff everything into a power creep.

That’s what I would have hoped Elite specs to do. Fill in some gaps that may not have been appropriate or designed for in the core class. Berserker gives Burning/condi play that Warrior was weak in, and added a burst-ier damage mechanic with Primal Bursts. Thing is, it also attempted to do stuff that Warrior’s core needed: namely Taunt and Stability.
But the core class is still suffering with shoddy traits and ages-old weapon skills that haven’t been updated, and an utter lack of survivability for a class that should be a natural damage sponge. Sure, you can trait for it, sort of, but then that’s all you’re doing.
Elite specs, and Revenant, if focused on good game design, were supposed to be options and different play styles, but many of them feel too powerful, so now other classes/specs need to be brought up, or the others toned down. Which, weirdly enough, depends on how much the devs want Toughness to matter.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ayrilana.1396:

Would you consider the Guild Wars 1 standalone campaigns and expansion P2W?

I didn’t play GW1 so I can’t answer that. And tbh I don’t care about labelling any game as P2W, B2P or whatever. My only point is Elite Spec should have been equal in power to the core specs and not so much more powerful like they are now. That’s my only point here.

The thing is that this has been in the series since the beginning and practically every other MMO does the same. The OP is also using the term incorrectly.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ayrilana.1396:

Would you consider the Guild Wars 1 standalone campaigns and expansion P2W?

I didn’t play GW1 so I can’t answer that. And tbh I don’t care about labelling any game as P2W, B2P or whatever. My only point is Elite Spec should have been equal in power to the core specs and not so much more powerful like they are now. That’s my only point here.

Vayne.8563:

I disagree. I played Guild Wars 1 too, which was also buy to play and there was definitely power creep in that game as well. People want to feel like they’re progressing. It’s very hard to do that without making them a bit more powerful. That said, it’s not TONS more powerful in most cases.

Then you have necros, which were less powerful over all and now have a spec they can use.

It’s simply more complex an image than you’re painting it.

I’m just gonna leave that here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

Power Creep is a very bad design decision. You said it yourself.

‘’People want to feel like they’re progressing. It’s very hard to do that without making them a bit more powerful.’’

Power creep is an easy way to achieve that, but it have a lot of bad side effects on the game, especially on the long run. Think about it for a second.

My guardian used to do around 6-7k dps back at launch with level 80 full exotic gear. And I’m talking with full buffs on. Now? We are doing more around 18k and we one of the worst dps profession. Lupi which was one of the biggest boss at launch with 1 or 2 million HP is ridiculous compare to the 20+ millions hp from raid boss. People complained that dungeon were way too easy. That’s what happen when you can explode mobs in second bypassing their mechanics.

Again like you said, it’s complex. Some buffing is needed. Some profession are weak in certain content and certain build are weak for certain professions. That’s where elite spec should have buffed their profession. Not buff everything into a power creep.

Power creep needs to be controlled, that’s absolutely true. But I’ve never played a game without power creep. Certainly not an MMO. Not Guild Wars 1. Power creep is a fact of life.

It has to be controlled. This game is actually made so that power creep means a bit less than other games, because of scaling. In other games, power creep is really bad, because everything is meaningless.

In this game, that’s not really the case. I can go have a good time in DredgeHaunt or Mount Maelstrom, because of downscaling. It doesn’t completely nullify power creep but it certainly mitigates some of it.

In the mean time, you have the problem of having to sell the expansion. Plenty of people are simply cheap. They won’t spend the money unless you give them a kitten ed good reason to pay the money. So people who only PvP, they really have no reason to spend money on an expansion if you give them everything.

You have to give them options that are desirable, or an entire segment of the population has no reason to buy the expansion. That’s just logical from a business point of view.

This isn’t a charity. It’s a business. Businesses try to make money. But since there’s not an MMO I can think of where this situation doesn’t exist, trying to single this game out when ever subscription games have the issue is a red herring.

Ayrilana.1396:

Thaddeus.4891:

Ayrilana.1396:

Would you consider the Guild Wars 1 standalone campaigns and expansion P2W?

I didn’t play GW1 so I can’t answer that. And tbh I don’t care about labelling any game as P2W, B2P or whatever. My only point is Elite Spec should have been equal in power to the core specs and not so much more powerful like they are now. That’s my only point here.

The thing is that this has been in the series since the beginning and practically every other MMO does the same. The OP is also using the term incorrectly.

Well, it depend on what we are talking about here. Again. My only point ever was about the power creep so I guess if you quoting me you are talking too about power creep.

It’s not because a lot of MMO are doing it and it was in GW1 that it’s a good things. Watch the video that I linked. Power Creep in gw2 is a bad thing. Ascended, Specialisation and Elite Spec being the 3 main power creep element added to the game. That’s the reason why most World boss are so freaking easy now, why dungeon can be done under 5min with a pug group, etc.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ayrilana.1396:

Thaddeus.4891:

Ayrilana.1396:

Would you consider the Guild Wars 1 standalone campaigns and expansion P2W?

I didn’t play GW1 so I can’t answer that. And tbh I don’t care about labelling any game as P2W, B2P or whatever. My only point is Elite Spec should have been equal in power to the core specs and not so much more powerful like they are now. That’s my only point here.

The thing is that this has been in the series since the beginning and practically every other MMO does the same. The OP is also using the term incorrectly.

Well, it depend on what we are talking about here. Again. My only point ever was about the power creep so I guess if you quoting me you are talking too about power creep.

It’s not because a lot of MMO are doing it and it was in GW1 that it’s a good things. Watch the video that I linked. Power Creep in gw2 is a bad thing. Ascended, Specialisation and Elite Spec being the 3 main power creep element added to the game. That’s the reason why most World boss are so freaking easy now, why dungeon can be done under 5min with a pug group, etc.

How is it really a bad thing? I guess that’s what I’m not understanding. Unlike other MMO’s, the power creep (via expansion) comes solely from the elite specs. It’s normally assumed that most players will purchase expansions so players will essentially have access to these right off the bat (provided they get the needed HP).

This will likely be something we won’t agree on.

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

Source?

Vayne.8563:

In the mean time, you have the problem of having to sell the expansion. Plenty of people are simply cheap. They won’t spend the money unless you give them a kitten ed good reason to pay the money. So people who only PvP, they really have no reason to spend money on an expansion if you give them everything.

That doesn’t even make sense dude. They sold their elite spec on the very fact that it wasn’t a power creep and they were equal, just different way to play your profession. You don’t remember? All those tread and qqing about how elite spec could be pure upgrade and it was bad. And all those fanboy (me including) that were defending anet since they clearly said that

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Elite-Specs-No-Diversity/first#post5069916

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Pay-to-win/first

Here two that I could found.

They don’t need to make the profession more powerful to sell the expansion. They could sell the expansion by promoting the NEW roles these spec would give to the professions, not by improving where they are already good at. And you know what, that’s exactly what they did. Take a look at the Elite spec page right now.

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/specializations/

brand-new way for you to progress, adding nine entirely new ways to play, a twist on your standard profession mechanic.

They always talked about how they would unlock different way to play the character and never talked to improve current strength of these profession.

Ask yourself. What do you prefer to play and what would sell the most?

Hey come play the new PS Beserker and the new Staff Tempest. Which are pretty much basically the exact same thing as the PS Warrior and Staff Elementalist, but with just a little twist with your F keys and more powerful.

or

Hey come play the Condi Reaper the first time Necromancer can finally be powerful in PvE. Come play the Chronomancer who can buffing the party with crazy with quickness and alacrity. Come play the first truly competitive Condi Warrior. Come play the Healing Druids. Come play an auramancer support with the tempest, etc, etc.

Those are what are selling the new specs because they bring completely new ways to play your characters. That sell way more than pressing F1 and F3 on a staff elementalist that play otherwise exactly the same, but with more dps.

Of course some are a bit too powerful. Chronomancer perma quickness is a bit much, condi Warrior dps is crazy, etc. But the point is that making profession more powerful is not what sell the best. Giving new ways to play your characters is what sold the elite spec to the players base. They just included a power creep into that.

Ayrilana.1396:

How is it really a bad thing? I guess that’s what I’m not understanding. Unlike other MMO’s, the power creep (via expansion) comes solely from the elite specs. It’s normally assumed that most players will purchase expansions so players will essentially have access to these right off the bat (provided they get the needed HP).

This will likely be something we won’t agree on.

Watch that. It will flesh out why power creep is bad way better than I can. It also talked about why power creep is so ever present in the game industrie, especially in MMO and a couple of ways to limit it’s effects.

More options will always have the potential to make you more powerful due to the possibility of better optimizing your character. An elite spec could be weaker in comparison to other options for example, but if it provides what you were lacking, it makes you stronger, potentially countering your counter. It doesn’t matter how balanced they are, those without access will always complain unless no one wants it.

P2W is usually in regards to pvp, the competitive side of games. It’s when you pay to gain an advantage(win) over others (class, spec, trait, talent, skill, potions, boosters etc.). Which directly affects other players in pvp (hence why you get complaints), while in pve it doesn’t (they don’t usually complain about it in those situations). If you want to argue about P2W for pve for stuff like say, stat boosters, then GW2 has always been P2W because boosters have been available on the gem store since day 1.

So in regards to this expansion being P2W? Absolutely, because in a lot of cases the elite specs are better than the vanilla specs with regards to pvp, and with free accounts, regular accounts, hot accounts all able to pvp together, it affects everyone. In pve who cares? they help you kill stuff faster. Other than raiding which imposes limits on players and classes, but then you need the expansion to raid, so you have access to all those specs anyways.

P2W has also in some regard entered WvW, because of the elite specs and also guild hall upgrades for stuff such as the new dragon banner. Mind you those can be set so that anyone has access to them at the claimed structure, so it’s not that bad.

I’m sure at some point Anet will balance them out, I’m sure that’s always the goal, well after they sell as much expansion boxes as they can anyways. But given that it’s 9 new elite specs, 1 entirely new class (and they’ve never managed to balanced the original specs in the first place), I don’t expect that to happen anytime soon if ever, so pvp and wvw will always be semi broken with class balance.

At least in other games the players with the new toys have to go higher in levels, and therefore end up in a different areas and brackets that doesn’t affect the rest who didn’t get the expansion.

nickoboy.2063:

I have played maplestory for plenty of time and this expansion is exactly the same, its just not as extreme as what Maplestory is. it’s okay to defend the expansion if you clearly purchased it but you gotta face the facts

Maplestory is probably a bad example.

But other typical mmorpg raise level cap in their expansion. How are you going to pvp in those games?

I can tell you no one playing those mmorpg ever talk about pay to win.

laokoko.7403:

nickoboy.2063:

I have played maplestory for plenty of time and this expansion is exactly the same, its just not as extreme as what Maplestory is. it’s okay to defend the expansion if you clearly purchased it but you gotta face the facts

Maplestory is probably a bad example.

But other typical mmorpg raise level cap in their expansion. How are you going to pvp in those games?

I can tell you no one playing those mmorpg ever talk about pay to win.

That’s because, like stated above 9/10 people agree that bringing out the Elite specs in regards to competitive aspects of the game ( so not regarding PvE ) has made them much stronger, for example. I don’t remember a normal Tyrian Gw2 Guardian auto attacking for 3.4k dmg every second and a half with a longbow, and then using another skill on the longbow that has a 6 second cooldown that does almost 10k damage. Or maybe a revenant who has basically all classes put together to make it, if a thief fights a revenant (even though thief has been turned into a evade spamming button mashing class now which is why i don’t main it anymore) what can it do? thief only has so much stealth and if you don’t have the expansion you can only dodge twice instead of dodging 7 times to evade a simple revenant sword 3 skill. ( i forgot to add that this also adds evasion to the attack aswell making it even more stronger.) HoT was added to give an unfair advantage in competitve terms of the game which is why myself and many others above are calling it P2W.

Rauderi.8706:

That’s what I would have hoped Elite specs to do. Fill in some gaps that may not have been appropriate or designed for in the core class.

That should have been a design goal but clearly wasn’t when looking at tempest for example.

morrolan.9608:

Rauderi.8706:

That’s what I would have hoped Elite specs to do. Fill in some gaps that may not have been appropriate or designed for in the core class.

That should have been a design goal but clearly wasn’t when looking at tempest for example.

That depends on which Tempest you are looking at. Melee ranged skills do not go well with glassy staff tempests.

Roxanne.6140:

morrolan.9608:

Rauderi.8706:

That’s what I would have hoped Elite specs to do. Fill in some gaps that may not have been appropriate or designed for in the core class.

That should have been a design goal but clearly wasn’t when looking at tempest for example.

That depends on which Tempest you are looking at. Melee ranged skills do not go well with glassy staff tempests.

What? Ele as a class already had 2 melee range specs, it didn’t need another.

Thaddeus.4891:

Vayne.8563:

In the mean time, you have the problem of having to sell the expansion. Plenty of people are simply cheap. They won’t spend the money unless you give them a kitten ed good reason to pay the money. So people who only PvP, they really have no reason to spend money on an expansion if you give them everything.

That doesn’t even make sense dude. They sold their elite spec on the very fact that it wasn’t a power creep and they were equal, just different way to play your profession. You don’t remember? All those tread and qqing about how elite spec could be pure upgrade and it was bad. And all those fanboy (me including) that were defending anet since they clearly said that

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Elite-Specs-No-Diversity/first#post5069916

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Pay-to-win/first

Here two that I could found.

They don’t need to make the profession more powerful to sell the expansion. They could sell the expansion by promoting the NEW roles these spec would give to the professions, not by improving where they are already good at. And you know what, that’s exactly what they did. Take a look at the Elite spec page right now.

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/specializations/

brand-new way for you to progress, adding nine entirely new ways to play, a twist on your standard profession mechanic.

They always talked about how they would unlock different way to play the character and never talked to improve current strength of these profession.

Ask yourself. What do you prefer to play and what would sell the most?

Hey come play the new PS Beserker and the new Staff Tempest. Which are pretty much basically the exact same thing as the PS Warrior and Staff Elementalist, but with just a little twist with your F keys and more powerful.

or

Hey come play the Condi Reaper the first time Necromancer can finally be powerful in PvE. Come play the Chronomancer who can buffing the party with crazy with quickness and alacrity. Come play the first truly competitive Condi Warrior. Come play the Healing Druids. Come play an auramancer support with the tempest, etc, etc.

Those are what are selling the new specs because they bring completely new ways to play your characters. That sell way more than pressing F1 and F3 on a staff elementalist that play otherwise exactly the same, but with more dps.

Of course some are a bit too powerful. Chronomancer perma quickness is a bit much, condi Warrior dps is crazy, etc. But the point is that making profession more powerful is not what sell the best. Giving new ways to play your characters is what sold the elite spec to the players base. They just included a power creep into that.

Actually saying the sold the elite spec on the fact that it was just equal is a bit of an overstatement. They sold the elite spec on the very idea that it gave you a new way to play a profession.

Now, we don’t know how those professions will be adjusted now that they’re in game and people are using them.

Years ago, warriors were OP and now they’re not. They didn’t sell the original game on the idea that warriors are OP.

Also not all the new specializations are OP. And the idea that most people are playing them because they’re OP is also wrong. Many people will be playing them because they’re new also.

As an example, my burn guardian in PvE is just as effective as a guardian as he is as a dragon hunter for the content I do. I still play the dragon hunter, because I like the new skills. Not because it’s OP.

So, new stuff comes out, its’ not balance, game is pay to win. No. Not even close.

We have to watch balance patches to see where it goes in the future, because there have always been more powerful professions in this game.

When there were a zillion ham/bow warriors running around the situation isn’t much different than it is now.

And you know it’s hard to introduce a bunch of new stuff and know where the meta will go.

But my understanding of these specs, how they were SOLD was that they were new ways to play your existing characters, which is what most people were asking for.

nickoboy.2063:

laokoko.7403:

nickoboy.2063:

I have played maplestory for plenty of time and this expansion is exactly the same, its just not as extreme as what Maplestory is. it’s okay to defend the expansion if you clearly purchased it but you gotta face the facts

Maplestory is probably a bad example.

But other typical mmorpg raise level cap in their expansion. How are you going to pvp in those games?

I can tell you no one playing those mmorpg ever talk about pay to win.

That’s because, like stated above 9/10 people agree that bringing out the Elite specs in regards to competitive aspects of the game ( so not regarding PvE ) has made them much stronger, for example. I don’t remember a normal Tyrian Gw2 Guardian auto attacking for 3.4k dmg every second and a half with a longbow, and then using another skill on the longbow that has a 6 second cooldown that does almost 10k damage. Or maybe a revenant who has basically all classes put together to make it, if a thief fights a revenant (even though thief has been turned into a evade spamming button mashing class now which is why i don’t main it anymore) what can it do? thief only has so much stealth and if you don’t have the expansion you can only dodge twice instead of dodging 7 times to evade a simple revenant sword 3 skill. ( i forgot to add that this also adds evasion to the attack aswell making it even more stronger.) HoT was added to give an unfair advantage in competitve terms of the game which is why myself and many others above are calling it P2W.

And raising the level cap isn’t an unfair advantage. Do you think if you were level 70 and everyone else was 80 you do well. Or if everyone was level 100 and you remained at level 80.

In PvP in most MMOs the level cap raises. This includes all the AAA MMOs I can think of except for Guild Wars 2.

Pray tell, can you name a single AAA MMO that you don’t need the expansion for to remain competitive.

This is what exists INSTEAD of paying a sub. Calling it pay to win is simply wrong.

Vayne.8563:

When there were a zillion ham/bow warriors running around the situation isn’t much different than it is now.

Actually there is a difference, because everyone had the base game before so if you wanted to roll up a ham/bow warrior yourself you could, with the expansion not everyone has access to the new specs, there is now a line drawn between equal play to pay to win, whether that changes depends on Anet and how they go about their balancing and how long it takes them to even do so.

Again P2W is in regards to competitive play which affects all account types in this case because they are all forced to play together in pvp and wvw. I don’t care how much more damage you can or cannot do in pve with your old or new class unless of course your new class is suddenly doing like 20k more dps then obviously something needs adjusting. There’s no dps meters in gw2 so even there the pve is not very competitive.

Mmo classes are not built to be equal, but their have their roles to balance each other, and that’s expected more so in pvp. You will never achieve perfect balance but you of course don’t expect to have classes than can 1-2 shot you, or man handle the old specs so bad that it becomes expected to upgrade to continue to compete on a more even ground.

It’s like you’re playing vanilla iron man, and the expansion comes out and someone buys it and gets hulk and starts wrecking other players, you can still try to take on hulk but prepare for limbs being torn off, eventually you’ll be forced to just p2w and get access to the hulk buster instead.

Vayne.8563:

In PvP in most MMOs the level cap raises. This includes all the AAA MMOs I can think of except for Guild Wars 2.
Pray tell, can you name a single AAA MMO that you don’t need the expansion for to remain competitive.

The other mmo’s raise their caps along with access to new skills/traits, thus creating the separation in pvp between the old and new specs. A level 90 doesn’t have to face a level 100 character with the new skills, they would face others around their level. In GW2 everyone from free to play, regular, and expansion accounts are all pooled together, there’s no separation from the elite specs, now those with the expansion have the advantage until Anet manages to balance them.

Xenesis.6389:

Vayne.8563:

When there were a zillion ham/bow warriors running around the situation isn’t much different than it is now.

Actually there is a difference, because everyone had the base game before so if you wanted to roll up a ham/bow warrior yourself you could, with the expansion not everyone has access to the new specs, there is now a line drawn between equal play to pay to win, whether that changes depends on Anet and how they go about their balancing and how long it takes them to even do so.

Again P2W is in regards to competitive play which affects all account types in this case because they are all forced to play together in pvp and wvw. I don’t care how much more damage you can or cannot do in pve with your old or new class unless of course your new class is suddenly doing like 20k more dps then obviously something needs adjusting. There’s no dps meters in gw2 so even there the pve is not very competitive.

Mmo classes are not built to be equal, but their have their roles to balance each other, and that’s expected more so in pvp. You will never achieve perfect balance but you of course don’t expect to have classes than can 1-2 shot you, or man handle the old specs so bad that it becomes expected to upgrade to continue to compete on a more even ground.

It’s like you’re playing vanilla iron man, and the expansion comes out and someone buys it and gets hulk and starts wrecking other players, you can still try to take on hulk but prepare for limbs being torn off, eventually you’ll be forced to just p2w and get access to the hulk buster instead.

Sure and when new stuff is released it often takes months in most MMOs to get the balance right. So we see new professions, they’re being used a lot, people jump on the band wagon and then stuff gets nerfed, just like warriors got a nerf at some point.

It doesn’t happen instantly.

In a year from now, we’ll see if things haven’t balanced out but it’s not going to happen right now, and no one can say the game is pay to win just because it’s out of balance right now. It’s a misuse of the term.

nickoboy.2063:

laokoko.7403:

nickoboy.2063:

I have played maplestory for plenty of time and this expansion is exactly the same, its just not as extreme as what Maplestory is. it’s okay to defend the expansion if you clearly purchased it but you gotta face the facts

Maplestory is probably a bad example.

But other typical mmorpg raise level cap in their expansion. How are you going to pvp in those games?

I can tell you no one playing those mmorpg ever talk about pay to win.

That’s because, like stated above 9/10 people agree that bringing out the Elite specs in regards to competitive aspects of the game ( so not regarding PvE ) has made them much stronger, for example. I don’t remember a normal Tyrian Gw2 Guardian auto attacking for 3.4k dmg every second and a half with a longbow, and then using another skill on the longbow that has a 6 second cooldown that does almost 10k damage. Or maybe a revenant who has basically all classes put together to make it, if a thief fights a revenant (even though thief has been turned into a evade spamming button mashing class now which is why i don’t main it anymore) what can it do? thief only has so much stealth and if you don’t have the expansion you can only dodge twice instead of dodging 7 times to evade a simple revenant sword 3 skill. ( i forgot to add that this also adds evasion to the attack aswell making it even more stronger.) HoT was added to give an unfair advantage in competitve terms of the game which is why myself and many others above are calling it P2W.

Of course Anet want you to buy the expansion.

That being said, do anyone playing Wow say “Oh I need to buy the expansion else I’ll get pawned by higher level people”, “or I’ll need to buy the expansion else I won’t be able to compete in competitive pvp”?

In mmorpg you buy expansion. That’s pretty much the buttom line. If you don’t like it, try to play other pvp games which isn’t a mmorpg.

Vayne.8563:

Sure and when new stuff is released it often takes months in most MMOs to get the balance right. So we see new professions, they’re being used a lot, people jump on the band wagon and then stuff gets nerfed, just like warriors got a nerf at some point.
It doesn’t happen instantly.

Sure it happens, Death knights were op when they came out in wow, eventually they got toned down, no different than the Revenant. The difference also is those other companies usually have longer beta’s and test servers to test stuff out, a lot of times it’s just adding a couple new spells to the top end of leveling that needs balancing. GW2 meanwhile added 9 elite specs at once that changes entire classes and barely did any beta testing on them, we’re in fact still beta testing them.

Vayne.8563:

In a year from now, we’ll see if things haven’t balanced out but it’s not going to happen right now, and no one can say the game is pay to win just because it’s out of balance right now. It’s a misuse of the term.

A year from now? lol. Not when they’re trying to promote e-sports right now to grow their game. Balance patches need to come faster on obvious broken stuff, when a pro team had to quit a tournament match just to get some attention to a broken meta says a lot.

Please enlighten us on your definition of pay to win.

Arlee.7038:

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

And your quantitative data showing most players have stopped playing is where?

And your quantitative data showing most players haven’t stopped playing is where?

HoT’s three scenarios:

1) HoT is wildly successful. It’s attracted a huge, new player base, it’s the talk of the gaming community, servers have been added and the future of GW2 is secure.

2) Hot was meh. It brought in some new players, but also lost about the same amount. In this case, the game’s future is limited. HoT was not sold to it’s investors as a “wash” in revenue.

3) HoT has failed to expand the player base, and is losing players. It’s future is not secure (which might explain the lack of updates). It was a good 3 1/2 year run, but it’s pretty much all down hill from here.

You’d think that Anet would be shouting from the roof tops if the player base has grown tremendously or that it would be evident by having to add new servers, etc.

Which of the three scenarios is most likely?

nickoboy.2063:

laokoko.7403:

nickoboy.2063:

I have played maplestory for plenty of time and this expansion is exactly the same, its just not as extreme as what Maplestory is. it’s okay to defend the expansion if you clearly purchased it but you gotta face the facts

Maplestory is probably a bad example.

But other typical mmorpg raise level cap in their expansion. How are you going to pvp in those games?

I can tell you no one playing those mmorpg ever talk about pay to win.

That’s because, like stated above 9/10 people agree that bringing out the Elite specs in regards to competitive aspects of the game ( so not regarding PvE ) has made them much stronger, for example. I don’t remember a normal Tyrian Gw2 Guardian auto attacking for 3.4k dmg every second and a half with a longbow, and then using another skill on the longbow that has a 6 second cooldown that does almost 10k damage. Or maybe a revenant who has basically all classes put together to make it, if a thief fights a revenant (even though thief has been turned into a evade spamming button mashing class now which is why i don’t main it anymore) what can it do? thief only has so much stealth and if you don’t have the expansion you can only dodge twice instead of dodging 7 times to evade a simple revenant sword 3 skill. ( i forgot to add that this also adds evasion to the attack aswell making it even more stronger.) HoT was added to give an unfair advantage in competitve terms of the game which is why myself and many others above are calling it P2W.

So people bought and expansion, got access to elite specs and won? That’s a nice story.

Redefine P2W all you want, that’s not what it means.

The bottom line is that A-Net badly misread what its market wanted, delivering mostly the exact opposite. It’s not P2W, but it’s broken balance and PvE intrusion into WvW that killed it for me. I’m done, and very sad about it. I’ll linger on the forums occasionally to see whether anything changes (it won’t, because they won’t be throwing more money at this, ever) while I actively play a different game (on which I just spent what I normally would have put into gems).

Soon.5240:

Arlee.7038:

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

And your quantitative data showing most players have stopped playing is where?

And your quantitative data showing most players haven’t stopped playing is where?

HoT’s three scenarios:

1) HoT is wildly successful. It’s attracted a huge, new player base, it’s the talk of the gaming community, servers have been added and the future of GW2 is secure.

2) Hot was meh. It brought in some new players, but also lost about the same amount. In this case, the game’s future is limited. HoT was not sold to it’s investors as a “wash” in revenue.

3) HoT has failed to expand the player base, and is losing players. It’s future is not secure (which might explain the lack of updates). It was a good 3 1/2 year run, but it’s pretty much all down hill from here.

You’d think that Anet would be shouting from the roof tops if the player base has grown tremendously or that it would be evident by having to add new servers, etc.

Which of the three scenarios is most likely?

Burden of proof falls on the one making the claim.
If you claim people are leaving you’ve to provide a source
Let’s look @ your reasoning in other context:

You: I have fairies in my garden.
Anyone: Proof?
You: Proof that I don’t?

Looking foward to the sweet and reliable source in your next post

Anet did not raise the level cap in GW2.

They did, however, add an option to spend real money to buy something that provides an advantage in PvP (at the same character level) over those who do not buy it.

Pay real money to have a competitive advantage over characters of your level.

It fits the term Pay to Win.

That said, I do not think that this is intentional. I believe that Anet did intend for the Elite Specs to be more about variety than power creep. I also believe that Anet intends to address the imbalances, but fully expect that this may take quite some time. Anet has seemed to struggle with game and class balance throughout the game’s history and I do not expect that to change any time soon.

Xenesis.6389:

Vayne.8563:

Sure and when new stuff is released it often takes months in most MMOs to get the balance right. So we see new professions, they’re being used a lot, people jump on the band wagon and then stuff gets nerfed, just like warriors got a nerf at some point.
It doesn’t happen instantly.

Sure it happens, Death knights were op when they came out in wow, eventually they got toned down, no different than the Revenant. The difference also is those other companies usually have longer beta’s and test servers to test stuff out, a lot of times it’s just adding a couple new spells to the top end of leveling that needs balancing. GW2 meanwhile added 9 elite specs at once that changes entire classes and barely did any beta testing on them, we’re in fact still beta testing them.

Vayne.8563:

In a year from now, we’ll see if things haven’t balanced out but it’s not going to happen right now, and no one can say the game is pay to win just because it’s out of balance right now. It’s a misuse of the term.

A year from now? lol. Not when they’re trying to promote e-sports right now to grow their game. Balance patches need to come faster on obvious broken stuff, when a pro team had to quit a tournament match just to get some attention to a broken meta says a lot.

Please enlighten us on your definition of pay to win.

I’ve given my definition of pay to win again and again on these forums. But I’ll try again.

Pay to win is a game that sells power directly through micro transactions. That it to say the best weapons or power can be bought only in the gem store and you have to buy that to pay for those specific weapons or armor. Or buffs.

I haven’t ever seen pay to win refer to an expansion in any game, though some expansions will add stuff to the cash shop to make it pay to win. I’ve never seen pay to win refer to anything except cash shop purchases.

For example, WoW comes out with an expansion that raises the level cap. To compete you must buy that expansion but no one calls WoW play to win. The same is true in virtually every MMO I can think of. The levels go up and when an expansion comes out. Expansions are like season passes. You’re expected to buy them to stay current. That’s normal for the genre.

Pay to win was a way of differentiating between games that required you to spend money in the cash shop on a relatively consistent basis, rather than selling an expansion after three years.

If you call Guild Wars 2 pay to win for an expansion you would have to call every single MMO I’ve ever played pay to win. Once you start calling every MMO pay to win, pay to win has lost it’s original definition which was to divide the good guys from the bad guys.

People have have played actual pay to win games can see the difference.

Ashen.2907:

Anet did not raise the level cap in GW2.

They did, however, add an option to spend real money to buy something that provides an advantage in PvP (at the same character level) over those who do not buy it.

Pay real money to have a competitive advantage over characters of your level.

It fits the term Pay to Win.

That said, I do not think that this is intentional. I believe that Anet did intend for the Elite Specs to be more about variety than power creep. I also believe that Anet intends to address the imbalances, but fully expect that this may take quite some time. Anet has seemed to struggle with game and class balance throughout the game’s history and I do not expect that to change any time soon.

It fits the words pay to win only if you have no experience with how the words are used. It’s like when you see three phone booths and the center one has a sign that says out of order, you don’t wonder if it belongs before the first one or after the third. Not all combinations of three words were meant to be taken literally. According to the urban dictionary this is the definition of pay to win:

“Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.”

Now Guild Wars 2’s HoT wouldn’t fit this definition. You can’t make more powerful items. However, just about every other MMO would fit this definition of pay to win. This is the reason people require context and shouldn’t take words literally.

When Free to play games first came out, some games required you to pump money into the consistently to get anywhere or to be competitive. Those games were considered pay to win.

Every single major MMO has had expansions since the very beginning, and all of them raise the level cap and provide a new tier of gear, without which you can not be competitive

Therefore, by your definition every single MMO is pay to win. But the term wasn’t coined and hasn’t be used to cover expansions. The term has been coined and used to cover microtransactions.

By the literal definition of pay to win, Guild Wars 2 is the least guilty of it compared to any MMO, since it hasn’t raised the level cap or offered a new tier of gear.

The word loses it’s original meaning if you try to use it literally but even then, Guild Wars 2 is an improvement over the competition.

tldr; If you take the words pay to win literally, Guild Wars 2 does better than the competition anyway, but you probably shouldn’t take every term used literally because words have context.

Raziel.4216:

Burden of proof falls on the one making the claim.
If you claim people are leaving you’ve to provide a source
Let’s look @ your reasoning in other context:

You: I have fairies in my garden.
Anyone: Proof?
You: Proof that I don’t?

Looking foward to the sweet and reliable source in your next post

Lol,

You completely missed the point. I did not claim that people are leaving the game. Read again.

Ashen.2907:

Anet did not raise the level cap in GW2.

They did, however, add an option to spend real money to buy something that provides an advantage in PvP (at the same character level) over those who do not buy it.

Pay real money to have a competitive advantage over characters of your level.

It fits the term Pay to Win.

That said, I do not think that this is intentional. I believe that Anet did intend for the Elite Specs to be more about variety than power creep. I also believe that Anet intends to address the imbalances, but fully expect that this may take quite some time. Anet has seemed to struggle with game and class balance throughout the game’s history and I do not expect that to change any time soon.

This isn’t MOBA.

Which mmorpg don’t require you to buy expansion if you want to pvp at the top tier?

That being said, it’s probably not a bad idea for Anet to make their spvp free for everyone. Or give people the ability to earn elite spec as a f2p player(or base game).

Vayne.8563:

…
Pay to win was when you had to continually use microtransactions to stay current. Look up games like Maple Story. This game is not P2W. They’re selling an expansion.
…

So, to start off, just want to say that HoT is far from P2W – whether that’s supporting the white knighting that’s going on or not.

The thing that erks me though is the way you define P2W, “to stay current”…

My definition is: Micro-transactions that give you a clear (number-wise) advantage.

In the case of Maple Story, at least way back when i played it (ver. 0.25 to 0.40, yes long kitten time ago), they began transitioning into becoming P2W with the introduction of 100% success scrolls whilst providing stats that only normal 10% scrolls did – from what I vaguely remember. (For those that don’t know how the scroll/weapon upgrade system works in MS – from what I remember – is you could use scrolls that could fail and destory an item or succeed and give a stat boost… So like normal 100% scroll would give +1 damage (let’s say), 50% scroll would give +5 damage, and 10% would give +10 damage… Then came the cash-shop scrolls, where cash-shop-bought 100% scroll would give you +10 damage…)

In the case of RF Online, you could buy ceramic/fire/poison ammo – that gave either either elemental damage, or a flat damage increase. This ammo was not found anywhere else besides the cash shop. That’s a clear P2W example… (Though, it didn’t have as much weight as one would think…)

Essentially, a system that allows you to pay to increase stats, and you can pay more to increase more (without much of a cap, or well, might be a cap for the sane people not willing to drop +$2k)…

My definition is far from perfect too, you can be a “lawyer” and find loop-holes and say “but the elite specs give a clear advantage” or something of the like…

Just, from time to time I pop into these kinds of threads, discussing P2W… and notice that the definition (or well, the tolerance) has been stretched way too thin… To the point of making seem, like me having a better internet connection or a “better” mouse means P2W…

Expansions are, generally, far from P2W… that’s like kittening that SC1:BroodWars was P2W – because hey, you got new units and more content than those owning just SC1.

What expansions do, generally, mean is that the game moved onto the next stage if you will… Comparing the new stage of the game versus the old stage of the game, is a bit silly in itself, and then tagging on that it’s P2W is a bit absurd… – You are allowed to compare things like, how much content was brought in vs how much was in the vanilla and the prices of each (hot topic!)…. If you choose to remain (for whatever reason) on the old stage of the game, then you should keep w/e judgement you have within the limits of the old stage of the game…

The major point of P2W, is micro-transactions…. MICRO TRANSACTIONS…. But yeah, +$50 for some is a “micro-transaction”…

(man… i can go on one of my late night rumbles… but I will just stop here..)
(Oh and, Vayne, though I quoted you, the post isn’t entirely directed at you…)
(Meh, sadly, this discussion won’t change anything, there will remain those that think the expansion is p2w… gamers in general are a much sadder beings than they were a decade ago (Yeah, I’m no better since I’m swimming in the same place as you))

Soon.5240:

Raziel.4216:

Burden of proof falls on the one making the claim.
If you claim people are leaving you’ve to provide a source
Let’s look @ your reasoning in other context:

You: I have fairies in my garden.
Anyone: Proof?
You: Proof that I don’t?

Looking foward to the sweet and reliable source in your next post

Lol,

You completely missed the point. I did not claim that people are leaving the game. Read again.

The source was requested for this claim, whomever made it:

Extreme.8350:

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

Vayne.8563:

Xenesis.6389:

Vayne.8563:

Sure and when new stuff is released it often takes months in most MMOs to get the balance right. So we see new professions, they’re being used a lot, people jump on the band wagon and then stuff gets nerfed, just like warriors got a nerf at some point.
It doesn’t happen instantly.

Sure it happens, Death knights were op when they came out in wow, eventually they got toned down, no different than the Revenant. The difference also is those other companies usually have longer beta’s and test servers to test stuff out, a lot of times it’s just adding a couple new spells to the top end of leveling that needs balancing. GW2 meanwhile added 9 elite specs at once that changes entire classes and barely did any beta testing on them, we’re in fact still beta testing them.

Vayne.8563:

In a year from now, we’ll see if things haven’t balanced out but it’s not going to happen right now, and no one can say the game is pay to win just because it’s out of balance right now. It’s a misuse of the term.

A year from now? lol. Not when they’re trying to promote e-sports right now to grow their game. Balance patches need to come faster on obvious broken stuff, when a pro team had to quit a tournament match just to get some attention to a broken meta says a lot.

Please enlighten us on your definition of pay to win.

I’ve given my definition of pay to win again and again on these forums. But I’ll try again.

Pay to win is a game that sells power directly through micro transactions. That it to say the best weapons or power can be bought only in the gem store and you have to buy that to pay for those specific weapons or armor. Or buffs.

I haven’t ever seen pay to win refer to an expansion in any game, though some expansions will add stuff to the cash shop to make it pay to win. I’ve never seen pay to win refer to anything except cash shop purchases.

For example, WoW comes out with an expansion that raises the level cap. To compete you must buy that expansion but no one calls WoW play to win. The same is true in virtually every MMO I can think of. The levels go up and when an expansion comes out. Expansions are like season passes. You’re expected to buy them to stay current. That’s normal for the genre.

Pay to win was a way of differentiating between games that required you to spend money in the cash shop on a relatively consistent basis, rather than selling an expansion after three years.

If you call Guild Wars 2 pay to win for an expansion you would have to call every single MMO I’ve ever played pay to win. Once you start calling every MMO pay to win, pay to win has lost it’s original definition which was to divide the good guys from the bad guys.

People have have played actual pay to win games can see the difference.

How exactly is it ok that we are still beta testing during the final form of the expansion? Usually when a game goes out of Beta, does it not mean that the product is ready for release? Yet, you say essentially we are still testing and that it is ok because they added 9 different specs all at once? WoW don’t release 9 specs, but they release new spells and talents that equal just about the same amount, and if not then more, abilities of a new class in GW2. That is not even considering each spec they have per class. So I don’t find that as an excuse for us having to pay to be current Beta testers. Sure, at some point they have to balance their skills , but that is the territory of any game especially PvP where things are balanced to keep metas or strong tatics in check. That is in any game, and even mobas.

And then what about some of the many bugs that some players have experienced in HoT which still persist today, is there an excuse still for so many of them? We are talking about a product that was sold for 40 – 100$ to millions of players, as a COMPLETE and READY game. I don’t find that ok, but to each their own.

Back to specs though. Some of the classes before elite specializations were STILL not balanced or on par with some of the stronger classes. Necro and Ranger for example come to mind. Both of them have been subpar in conquest almost since the release of the game. Thats been 2-3 years. Deathknights or any new class in WoW will probably be toned down in the coming arena seasons or within months of the new expansion being out. Not a whole entire 2 years.

On top of that, If I was to go into PVP right now and hope to do well as those main classes, im going to either get wrecked by the new specializations or have to work twice as hard to be just as good. And as it was advertised, these specializations were only ways to open up NEW opportunities to play, yet some of them improve what the main classes lacked and make them the BETTER or more powerful versions (Reaper, Chronomancer, Revenant). How is that ok?

In WoW, the way it works is that, if you want to continue playing beyond the last expansion and play its new content, your required to buy the new expansion. Most likely if your into the PVE, your going to do so, not to mention having access to new abilities. However, In PVP, your not forced to do so. Yes, in arenas or RBG you will since its endgame pvp. However, in normal battlegrounds, they even make a new bracket (80-89, 90-99, 100) so essentially, If I wanted to do just battlegrounds with my current character, I will still be on a equal playing ground until I hit the next level which would only come from me buying the expansion. I would not be thrown into the same game with elite specializations getting whooped and punished for not buying the expansion.

I think this is where the Pay to Win idea comes in. WoW has conditions to what you can and cant do, GW2 on the other hand just slaps everything on top of each other and hopes it works out for the best.

Raziel.4216:

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

Source?

I don’t have a source i just know the new maps are more desserted than before.
after just 1 week i saw many lvl 50-120 players.
OP dont have a source of bad class balance either.
In pvp i see all classes except for warriors there is lots of thieves but it still sucks.
Stacked teams usually lose except for dragonhunters.

Extreme.8350:

Raziel.4216:

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

Source?

I don’t have a source i just know the new maps are more desserted than before.
after just 1 week i saw many lvl 50-120 players.
OP dont have a source of bad class balance either.
In pvp i see all classes except for warriors there is lots of thieves but it still sucks.
Stacked teams usually lose except for dragonhunters.

What if someone else “just knows” that it’s doing fine. What do we do then?
Hitchen’s razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Raziel.4216:

Extreme.8350:

Raziel.4216:

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

Source?

I don’t have a source i just know the new maps are more desserted than before.
after just 1 week i saw many lvl 50-120 players.
OP dont have a source of bad class balance either.
In pvp i see all classes except for warriors there is lots of thieves but it still sucks.
Stacked teams usually lose except for dragonhunters.

What if someone else “just knows” that it’s doing fine. What do we do then?
Hitchen’s razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Then you can dismiss OP too because no evidence.

Extreme.8350:

Raziel.4216:

Extreme.8350:

Raziel.4216:

Extreme.8350:

nickoboy.2063:

Hopefully you have realised this already and understand that people quit for this reason

No most players quit because they finished hot already or 95% of it.

Source?

I don’t have a source i just know the new maps are more desserted than before.
after just 1 week i saw many lvl 50-120 players.
OP dont have a source of bad class balance either.
In pvp i see all classes except for warriors there is lots of thieves but it still sucks.
Stacked teams usually lose except for dragonhunters.

What if someone else “just knows” that it’s doing fine. What do we do then?
Hitchen’s razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Then you can dismiss OP too because no evidence.

I have.
His faulty reasoning and missuse of the term Pay to Win has been pointed out multiple times in this topic.