Guild Wars 2

Ayrilana.1396:

Which was why I singled that map as being different than the others. Read the bolded.

Running around was just the tactic created by a guild when they first completed meta event. It’s not the tactic that the map was designed for. Having the tower boss not being able to regenerate promotes players being able just zerg each tower which is something that a large percentage of the playerbase complained about with LS1 events.

So it’s better to let people keep running and doing the same thing for 10 mins 20 mins or even more and doesn’t allow one mistake?

Rauderi.8706:

Ayrilana.1396:

Rauderi.8706:

Ayrilana.1396:

deesbaby.8726:

Ayrilana, you can’t progress on the map at all when the map is dead, even after a reset the map you can’t go beyond the WP’s as they are blocked so your still screwed lol

Put up a LFG?

Did that. 30 minutes in advance. Did that too.

No squad? People leave.
LFG size too small? People leave.
Other map taxiing? People leave.

“Put up LFG” is not the catch-all answer to a broken system, and it’s particularly lazy and flippant as a response.

It’s not a broken system. That entire map relies on a substantial number of players working together in each lane. That is how that particular map was designed. Just because you don’t like that doesn’t mean that is is broken. Especially if any issues are coming from the players themselves where they leave maps with no commander tags and so on.

LFG is very much an adequate solution to you problem. You lack the people. LFG is used to bring players onto maps. This is what we have been doing since megaservers. Also, because you disagree with it doesn’t mean that the response was lazy and flippant.

Just because you say it isn’t broken doesn’t mean it isn’t broken. That’s denial. If the megaserver can’t justly sort out people into a map when they rightly show up for a meta-event, there is a problem.

And LFG fails, as I already described. Therefore, not the magical solution you make it out to be. Clinging to that insistence is indeed lazy. “It works for me, so it works for everyone” is utterly short-sighted is callous an unhelpful in a forum.

Unfortunately, this is an issue that needs ANet intervention to resolve, and it’s a highly complicated, technical problem. Probably complicated enough that they’re not interested in cleaning up the logistical clusterbomb involved, even though it might advance their megaserver algorithms for the whole game.

Sadly, Dragon Stand doesn’t even require that many people, if the starting ‘event’ is any indication. Twelve people total to get it started. If I’m not on the Sacred Dragon Stand Taxi Map, I don’t even see more than three other people, so it’s impossible to organize anyway.

Megaserver works just fine if players don’t map hop. The issue has nothing to do with how the map and meta event series was designed.

LFG works if you do it as the map resets which is what I had said. The longer you wait, the less likely you will be able to fill a map as people will stop looking. However, you should still be able to get enough to progress the events far enough to unlock the electric wyverns.

We started maps 30 minutes after reset and were still able to beat MoM. All it takes is a little initiative.

I don’t particularly see an issue with the Dragon Stand events. That’s what I’m primarily arguing about. Now if you want to argue about the flaws of the megaservers, how they killed PvE server identities, and so on, then I’m game.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Ayrilana.1396:

Which was why I singled that map as being different than the others. Read the bolded.

Running around was just the tactic created by a guild when they first completed meta event. It’s not the tactic that the map was designed for. Having the tower boss not being able to regenerate promotes players being able just zerg each tower which is something that a large percentage of the playerbase complained about with LS1 events.

So it’s better to let people keep running and doing the same thing for 10 mins 20 mins or even more and doesn’t allow one mistake?

Versus scaling everything up, including the boss, and taking just as long, if not longer, to beat all three towers?

Ayrilana.1396:

Versus scaling everything up, including the boss, and taking just as long, if not longer, to beat all three towers?

No it won’t, like the gerent after patch, it could let people spread out to help if one lane is doing too bad.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Ayrilana.1396:

Versus scaling everything up, including the boss, and taking just as long, if not longer, to beat all three towers?

No it won’t, like the gerent after patch, it could let people spread out to help if one lane is doing too bad.

Try stacking an entire map at a tower. It doesn’t work.

Ayrilana.1396:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Ayrilana.1396:

Versus scaling everything up, including the boss, and taking just as long, if not longer, to beat all three towers?

No it won’t, like the gerent after patch, it could let people spread out to help if one lane is doing too bad.

Try stacking an entire map at a tower. It doesn’t work.

They don’t have to do it, just finish one tower and wait for others and help if some other lane is needed.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Ayrilana.1396:

Slowpokeking.8720:

Ayrilana.1396:

Versus scaling everything up, including the boss, and taking just as long, if not longer, to beat all three towers?

No it won’t, like the gerent after patch, it could let people spread out to help if one lane is doing too bad.

Try stacking an entire map at a tower. It doesn’t work.

They don’t have to do it, just finish one tower and wait for others and help if some other lane is needed.

DS doesn’t need to be nerfed.

Slowpokeking.8720:

Ayrilana.1396:

Versus scaling everything up, including the boss, and taking just as long, if not longer, to beat all three towers?

No it won’t, like the gerent after patch, it could let people spread out to help if one lane is doing too bad.

You can still do the same in DS. In one of my runs my Commander sent 4-5 people to help kill the bosses in the other two lanes who had difficulty in doing so, while we kept running around killing Preservers. We succeeded, which means you can still help the other lanes without nerfing the current map.

Ayrilana.1396:

Megaserver works just fine if players don’t map hop.

But they do.
If megaserver tech can’t help account for the fact that players taxi, then it’s failed in its job. If players are getting to pick which map they end up on, then ANet ought to find a way for megaserver tech to resurrect GW1 districts. It’s what players have been wanting anyway.

LFG works if you do it as the map resets which is what I had said. The longer you wait, the less likely you will be able to fill a map as people will stop looking.

And if I can’t be there right at that exact moment when The Sacred Map of Our Taxiing Lady is visiting Dragon Stand to benevolently grace it with Her presence? Then I’m locked out for two solid hours, LFG or no. I’ve tried LFG after map reset and gotten zero results, just like last night and many nights like it. Stop clinging to this pollyanna notion that LFG just magically generates players who will run content.

We started maps 30 minutes after reset and were still able to beat MoM. All it takes is a little initiative.

I can show up 30 minutes before reset and still come away without a group. So I’m supposed to flail around doing nothing for an hour and expect to maybe, finally, complete an event?

I don’t particularly see an issue with the Dragon Stand events. That’s what I’m primarily arguing about.

Not really, no. Your claim is “LFG is the bestest, prettiest way of experiencing all content ever, including Dragon Stand.” Which is only true in the sense that it’s the best we have to limp along and gather participants in a slim 10-minute window, once every two hours. Otherwise, it’s “gg, have fun waiting to have fun.”

The most frustrating thing is, I like what Dragon Stand is trying to do. The Mouth fight is a crazy little ride that I can enjoy, if I can ever get past the part where the do-nothing Pact scraps can stop waiting for the 12 chosen ones to show up and start the show.
But, all the boring waiting and taxi finagling has many players tired. They find the events and rewards not worth the effort of forcefully prying their way into the one good map, so if they miss that, nearly zero chance of participating at all. So instead, once they have the rewards they need, they leave it behind forever, much like they do with Adventures.

Rauderi.8706:

Ayrilana.1396:

Megaserver works just fine if players don’t map hop.

But they do.
If megaserver tech can’t help account for the fact that players taxi, then it’s failed in its job. If players are getting to pick which map they end up on, then ANet ought to find a way for megaserver tech to resurrect GW1 districts. It’s what players have been wanting anyway.

LFG works if you do it as the map resets which is what I had said. The longer you wait, the less likely you will be able to fill a map as people will stop looking.

And if I can’t be there right at that exact moment when The Sacred Map of Our Taxiing Lady is visiting Dragon Stand to benevolently grace it with Her presence? Then I’m locked out for two solid hours, LFG or no. I’ve tried LFG after map reset and gotten zero results, just like last night and many nights like it. Stop clinging to this pollyanna notion that LFG just magically generates players who will run content.

We started maps 30 minutes after reset and were still able to beat MoM. All it takes is a little initiative.

I can show up 30 minutes before reset and still come away without a group. So I’m supposed to flail around doing nothing for an hour and expect to maybe, finally, complete an event?

I don’t particularly see an issue with the Dragon Stand events. That’s what I’m primarily arguing about.

Not really, no. Your claim is “LFG is the bestest, prettiest way of experiencing all content ever, including Dragon Stand.” Which is only true in the sense that it’s the best we have to limp along and gather participants in a slim 10-minute window, once every two hours. Otherwise, it’s “gg, have fun waiting to have fun.”

The most frustrating thing is, I like what Dragon Stand is trying to do. The Mouth fight is a crazy little ride that I can enjoy, if I can ever get past the part where the do-nothing Pact scraps can stop waiting for the 12 chosen ones to show up and start the show.
But, all the boring waiting and taxi finagling has many players tired. They find the events and rewards not worth the effort of forcefully prying their way into the one good map, so if they miss that, nearly zero chance of participating at all. So instead, once they have the rewards they need, they leave it behind forever, much like they do with Adventures.

Megaservers in itself work just fine. It’s just that players got themselves accustomed to map hopping which then became the norm. I hate that we lost the server communities but it does successfully put players onto maps. Now I would personally prefer that they raise the threshold before new instances are created though.

I have never said that LFG magically generates players. Have you not read by previous posts completely? I’ve always been able to fill maps within 30 minutes of reset. If you can come to the map 30 minutes prior to reset, and still not get a map, you’re probably doing something wrong like not using the LFG. Having to rely on the LFG is a situation that the players themselves created with Anet opening the doors for that with the megaservers.

No. That’s not what I’m saying about the LFG. Refer back to my statement again that I see no issues with the dragon stand events themselves.

Ayrilana.1396:

Megaservers in itself work just fine. It’s just that players got themselves accustomed to map hopping which then became the norm. I hate that we lost the server communities but it does successfully put players onto maps. Now I would personally prefer that they raise the threshold before new instances are created though.

That’s the exact opposite of what needs to happen. Just tossing out numbers for an example. Given:
115 players for a map population
100 player map cap
If the Sacred Map is full, that’s a distribution of:
100 players on a meta map
15 players on a dead map

Lower that cap to 70, and the same number of players distributes to:
70 players on a meta map
45 players available on a second meta-capable map
And with scaling the way it is, both maps get better boss scaling for faster kill times.

I don’t know the actual thresholds, obviously, but it’s a case of splitting up the zerg, not mushing more into one group.

I’ve always been able to fill maps within 30 minutes of reset. If you can come to the map 30 minutes prior to reset, and still not get a map, you’re probably doing something wrong like not using the LFG.

“Have you not read by previous posts completely?” You’re deliberately doing this. -_-
I already said I use LFG. I already said why it doesn’t always work. Please read other peoples’ posts in their entirety before responding.

No. That’s not what I’m saying about the LFG. Refer back to my statement again that I see no issues with the dragon stand events themselves.

The events themselves are fine, yes. Being able to start a map with only 12 people is actually fairly generous. Ruddy shame that LFG can’t even farm that many in a reliable capacity. It is, sadly, our only approach as players, because ANet seems to have a blind eye turned toward their metrics, and they seem unwilling to re-tool map limits to spread players out more.

If nothing else, let’s drive the innovation with some better ideas. There’s no excuse to force map cycling strictly to an specific hour. That’s just for convenience and predictability. So that the code works.
But what if, like with world bosses, a guild could hop into an unstarted map, slam down a flag, and restart the map timer so they can post a guild run to LFG? No need for waiting for the map with 35 minutes left to uselessly time out, but use the active instance and actually do something with it.

tl;dr:

• Lower Dragon Stand population caps
• Give Guilds the ability to restart inactive maps
• [Add other ideas to the list]

Rauderi.8706:

Ayrilana.1396:

Megaservers in itself work just fine. It’s just that players got themselves accustomed to map hopping which then became the norm. I hate that we lost the server communities but it does successfully put players onto maps. Now I would personally prefer that they raise the threshold before new instances are created though.

That’s the exact opposite of what needs to happen. Just tossing out numbers for an example. Given:
115 players for a map population
100 player map cap
If the Sacred Map is full, that’s a distribution of:
100 players on a meta map
15 players on a dead map

Lower that cap to 70, and the same number of players distributes to:
70 players on a meta map
45 players available on a second meta-capable map
And with scaling the way it is, both maps get better boss scaling for faster kill times.

I don’t know the actual thresholds, obviously, but it’s a case of splitting up the zerg, not mushing more into one group.

I’ve always been able to fill maps within 30 minutes of reset. If you can come to the map 30 minutes prior to reset, and still not get a map, you’re probably doing something wrong like not using the LFG.

“Have you not read by previous posts completely?” You’re deliberately doing this. -_-
I already said I use LFG. I already said why it doesn’t always work. Please read other peoples’ posts in their entirety before responding.

No. That’s not what I’m saying about the LFG. Refer back to my statement again that I see no issues with the dragon stand events themselves.

The events themselves are fine, yes. Being able to start a map with only 12 people is actually fairly generous. Ruddy shame that LFG can’t even farm that many in a reliable capacity. It is, sadly, our only approach as players, because ANet seems to have a blind eye turned toward their metrics, and they seem unwilling to re-tool map limits to spread players out more.

If nothing else, let’s drive the innovation with some better ideas. There’s no excuse to force map cycling strictly to an specific hour. That’s just for convenience and predictability. So that the code works.
But what if, like with world bosses, a guild could hop into an unstarted map, slam down a flag, and restart the map timer so they can post a guild run to LFG? No need for waiting for the map with 35 minutes left to uselessly time out, but use the active instance and actually do something with it.

tl;dr:

• Lower Dragon Stand population caps
• Give Guilds the ability to restart inactive maps
• [Add other ideas to the list]

The thing is that players want a full map. Lowering the population caps (opposite of what I was suggesting) will just make your problem worse. You’ll have even more empty maps as players then transfer to more fuller ones. My suggestion with higher population threshold needed before a new instance was created would reduce the need for players to hop maps as they’ll already be on a near full one or one in the process of becoming full.

No I am not deliberately not reading your posts. That comment was in regards to your claim that I was stating that LFG was the bestest, prettiest way of experiencing all content. I was not saying that. LFG is not perfect but it does work.

Retool map limits to spread players out more? So instead of like 1-3 full maps and a couple near empty instances we have 5 maps with barely enough players to complete the meta while also ignoring that people are going to ferry onto maps regardless? I’ll pass.

Ayrilana.1396:

Retool map limits to spread players out more? So instead of like 1-3 full maps and a couple near empty instances we have 5 maps with barely enough players to complete the meta while also ignoring that people are going to ferry onto maps regardless? I’ll pass.

Again, not reading what was already presented, in the interest of presenting an ‘argument’.

We already know that players will gravitate toward full maps, and they’ll condemn megaserver for putting them elsewhere. If there is no option to hop to the Sacred Map of Meta Completion, they’ll have to stick to another map, and be more likely to have other people on that map.

Exemplary numbers, again:

Assume 161 players.
Assume map cap of 150.
That’s one full taxi map.
And one map with 11 people.
11 people leave the map with no progression.

161 players, reduce cap to 100.
One full taxi map.
One map with 61 players, enough to initiate and succeed at meta.
Room enough for late-comers to join.

161 players, map cap 70
Two full taxi maps.
One map with 21 players, enough to initiate the meta.
Metas all succeed faster due to better scaling.
-or without taxiing:
Two well-populated maps (50-60)
One smaller population map (20-40)
All can achieve meta without hitting the map cap, no need to taxi.

161 players, map cap at 200
Technical limitation reached. Everyone gets in, lag kills everyone, meta fails.

Not being an employee, I’m not privy to the actual numerical limitations and algorithms, so it’s all conjecture anyway, but what does become apparent is that the smaller discreet units are better able to handle population chunks. This could be even more apparent if new maps open after some maps soft cap.

Not to say that all maps would need this sort of treatment, though. Dragon Stand is unique in how its meta works, so it needs special consideration in how the server treats its population cap.

Rauderi.8706:

Ayrilana.1396:

Retool map limits to spread players out more? So instead of like 1-3 full maps and a couple near empty instances we have 5 maps with barely enough players to complete the meta while also ignoring that people are going to ferry onto maps regardless? I’ll pass.

Again, not reading what was already presented, in the interest of presenting an ‘argument’.

We already know that players will gravitate toward full maps, and they’ll condemn megaserver for putting them elsewhere. If there is no option to hop to the Sacred Map of Meta Completion, they’ll have to stick to another map, and be more likely to have other people on that map.

Exemplary numbers, again:

Assume 161 players.
Assume map cap of 150.
That’s one full taxi map.
And one map with 11 people.
11 people leave the map with no progression.

161 players, reduce cap to 100.
One full taxi map.
One map with 61 players, enough to initiate and succeed at meta.
Room enough for late-comers to join.

161 players, map cap 70
Two full taxi maps.
One map with 21 players, enough to initiate the meta.
Metas all succeed faster due to better scaling.
-or without taxiing:
Two well-populated maps (50-60)
One smaller population map (20-40)
All can achieve meta without hitting the map cap, no need to taxi.

161 players, map cap at 200
Technical limitation reached. Everyone gets in, lag kills everyone, meta fails.

Not being an employee, I’m not privy to the actual numerical limitations and algorithms, so it’s all conjecture anyway, but what does become apparent is that the smaller discreet units are better able to handle population chunks. This could be even more apparent if new maps open after some maps soft cap.

Not to say that all maps would need this sort of treatment, though. Dragon Stand is unique in how its meta works, so it needs special consideration in how the server treats its population cap.

I read what you were saying but didn’t realize you were referring to the actual map cap for how many players can be on at the same time. I took it in the context of what causes a new map to spawn. There’s no reason to artificially force the map population cap down just so you can get more active maps.

You gave an example of 161 players trying to get into a map with 150 slots leaving 11 players out of luck. You stated your solution of making the cap of 70 slots would then be more beneficial. Yes, for that specific player count. Let’s say that there are only 150 players trying to do DS. So that leaves 10 players who are just out of luck which is no different than it is right now.

As far as lag on a higher population map, reduce the number of player models on screen. That solves most of the lag problems right there. Very easy to test at Maw during the last phase with the shaman.

Some rebalance is needed. Playing south lane, the Tag(leader) didn’t explain the needed things. We wasted an entire DS cycle trying to finish. The next cycle, a better leader ( and the questions asked during the first failure) help us have a fast completion on South.

It is too dependent on ‘good players’ announcing the requirements to the group. Next time, I won’t be a newbie at south, but the issue will remain. The fight mechanics should mention the requirements, since the humans don’t do it reliably.

In VB and AB, I’m experienced. Beyond shouldn’t be so secret . . .