Guild Wars 2

Is there EVER some action on Dragon’s Stand? All the time I come there the map is deserted. So when is the best time to come there?

You should really look at group finder if you want to find a populated DS map. Join a group and join theirs DS map.

zomgbuffalo.5276:

You should really look at group finder if you want to find a populated DS map. Join a group and join theirs DS map.

This. Getting into a map with “action” can only occur realistically in one of two ways;

- At the start of the reset (which is fixed, so you can at least plan ahead)
- Using LFG to taxi in.

In game you can use /wiki event timer to see when the HoT metas will be cycling round.

First use a timer site, like gw2timer.com

When the dragon stand meta is up go there about ten minutes early. Open up your LFG and look for a group that’s going to do the new event.

I do dragon stand at least a couple of times a week. Tons of people doing it. But you can’t just drop by randomly. The whole zone is pretty much on a timer.

We wouldn’t have to resort to timers and taxis if the map timer didn’t start until a group was formed. :\ Hint, hint, ANet.

I usually zip into the zone kinda randomly if I’m working on hero challenges for elite specs, and I’ve only seen a map spontaneously organize once. If there wasn’t that thought of “Oh well, timer’s started, might as well never organize” we might not have to worry about all the taxiing to get a second map to get started.

etienne.1039:

Is there EVER some action on Dragon’s Stand? All the time I come there the map is deserted. So when is the best time to come there?

The best time to show up in DS is just before the map closes. Either use LFG or you can often just let the dragon clear the map and players will start filtering in to begin the event cycle. I think this is because there is so little reason to be on a DS map instance by yourself the next organized group has only your map to choose from when they begin. But LFG would be the surefire way.

What you don’t want to do is try and join a DS map in progress halfway through. Chances are you will be unable to zone in to the map because it’s already filled.

Absolutely. It’s routinely in LFG during the start of the meta, even when it isn’t the daily event zone, during US east and west coast evenings.

Well, they should give some mastery points for standing in this map, doing nothing, absolutely nothing..

There are probably a large number of players who figure they should just be able to play the game and never go to forums, wiki, etc. who think that DS and lots of other content is just broken. Cause really if you have to go research content outside the game it is kinda broken.

Are people really that helpless or are they too clouded to open the wiki or google it? It’s more work to begin a new thread than google it to find out within about 1 or 2 minutes how this map works.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Are people really that helpless or are they too clouded to open the wiki or google it? It’s more work to begin a new thread than google it to find out within about 1 or 2 minutes how this map works.

There are a number of people who have very limited time to play, and many MMOs that you CAN just get in and play without having to consult outside sources. If you only have 1 hour to play you want to spend that time playing the game, not reading about playing the game. And additionally there are probably people who will go to an empty DS and simply conclude that it is just not popular or not working. Why would they even think that they have to look it up online to “find out how it works”. Shouldn’t it just work or be made clear from within the game?

ProtoGunner.4953:

Are people really that helpless or are they too clouded to open the wiki or google it? It’s more work to begin a new thread than google it to find out within about 1 or 2 minutes how this map works.

You are both right and wrong;
I noticed the current generation is rather.. lazy.. or rather, they don’t seem able to think beyond their position. “if anet (or any game maker for that matter) doesn’t spoonfeed the information, it’s become inconceivable for the average gamer to know about it”

Now, sure, some hiccups were made to find the balance, a good example is the second Castlevania game (ever) where you need to have a flute and crouch in a certain spot for 15 seconds without anyone ingame telling you that, not even slightly hinting. That was a clear overreaction of leaving stuff to players to figure out.
But now you have the exact opposite, players apparantly enter an empty map, but no one bothers to look for a full map. They don’t open the looking for group tool to find or ask for another map.

I agree that anets mapping system is rather.. well.. just bad, it’s bad okay. Map travelling always seems to prioritize making new empty, dead maps. But we have the tools to correct anets lazyness of correcting this flaw, but if you don’t use those tools.. well, you’re just as lazy.

Sorry not sorry,
kind regards, kid who grew up with 90’s games

One of the things I’m not keen on in modern gaming is the expectation that everyone will be using google, wiki and youtube to figure out what to do in the game. It’s fine to have that option but it should be possible to work out almost everything in the game without resorting to that stuff. There could be NPCs in each zone who can give you the lowdown if you ask them: what, where, when, who? It’s not just HoT stuff either. The first time I had a world boss on my daily list I zoned in to the map and, um, no clue. Those timer sites should be unnecessary.

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Are people really that helpless or are they too clouded to open the wiki or google it? It’s more work to begin a new thread than google it to find out within about 1 or 2 minutes how this map works.

There are a number of people who have very limited time to play, and many MMOs that you CAN just get in and play without having to consult outside sources. If you only have 1 hour to play you want to spend that time playing the game, not reading about playing the game. And additionally there are probably people who will go to an empty DS and simply conclude that it is just not popular or not working. Why would they even think that they have to look it up online to “find out how it works”. Shouldn’t it just work or be made clear from within the game?

If you only have an hour to play it wouldn’t matter anyway. DS takes longer than that. Play on a day when you have more time.

DoctorDing.5890:

One of the things I’m not keen on in modern gaming is the expectation that everyone will be using google, wiki and youtube to figure out what to do in the game. It’s fine to have that option but it should be possible to work out almost everything in the game without resorting to that stuff. There could be NPCs in each zone who can give you the lowdown if you ask them: what, where, when, who? It’s not just HoT stuff either. The first time I had a world boss on my daily list I zoned in to the map and, um, no clue. Those timer sites should be unnecessary.

You have it all wrong. You want to know how events work and when they begin without learning it yourself. For that, you go to outside websites. You always have the alternative option of simply playing the game and figuring it out as you go. Nobody is forcing you to come and ask on the forums or go to outside websites. But if the expectation is that everything should happen when you have a mind to participate and it should all be obvious, I think you need to temper your expectations.

DoctorDing.5890:

One of the things I’m not keen on in modern gaming is the expectation that everyone will be using google, wiki and youtube to figure out what to do in the game. It’s fine to have that option but it should be possible to work out almost everything in the game without resorting to that stuff. There could be NPCs in each zone who can give you the lowdown if you ask them: what, where, when, who? It’s not just HoT stuff either. The first time I had a world boss on my daily list I zoned in to the map and, um, no clue. Those timer sites should be unnecessary.

They are unnecessary: you could ask in map chat, and see if anyone else knew where to go, or you could wander around and try and find it, or you could follow the “event” guide tool that is built in to the UI.

This is really, really just “can I have the help given by google and the wiki, but in the form of an in-game NPC”. Would you be happier if the web browser was built in, like it is in The Secret World, so you don’t have to alt-tab for this?

AliamRationem.5172:

You have it all wrong. You want to know how events work and when they begin without learning it yourself. For that, you go to outside websites. You always have the alternative option of simply playing the game and figuring it out as you go. Nobody is forcing you to come and ask on the forums or go to outside websites. But if the expectation is that everything should happen when you have a mind to participate and it should all be obvious, I think you need to temper your expectations.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

They are unnecessary: you could ask in map chat, and see if anyone else knew where to go, or you could wander around and try and find it, or you could follow the “event” guide tool that is built in to the UI.

This is really, really just “can I have the help given by google and the wiki, but in the form of an in-game NPC”. Would you be happier if the web browser was built in, like it is in The Secret World, so you don’t have to alt-tab for this?

Yup, you are both completely missing my point. I guess no-one is perfect.

Djinn.9245:

There are probably a large number of players who figure they should just be able to play the game and never go to forums, wiki, etc. who think that DS and lots of other content is just broken. Cause really if you have to go research content outside the game it is kinda broken.

This is kind of like saying “if you have to read the manual to figure it out, it’s broken.”

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

There are probably a large number of players who figure they should just be able to play the game and never go to forums, wiki, etc. who think that DS and lots of other content is just broken. Cause really if you have to go research content outside the game it is kinda broken.

This is kind of like saying “if you have to read the manual to figure it out, it’s broken.”

More like, “if you have to use the wiki, the designers were being lazy.” :P
But that’s high-minded game philosophy claptrap and not relevant to this particular topic.

Dragon Stand. Great map. Shoddy group execution. And we all know it.
Yes, one might sneak into the One Sacred Map if one tries hard enough, spamming LFG groups and trying to taxi via squad. It’s cluncky, and a player(ish)-driven mechanism to a problem that should be handled by the game’s internal systems.

The map could work in a way that didn’t actively encourage taxiing and rushing the map at just the right time. The biggest roadblock is the 2-hour cycle that enforces map closure, even if a meta never got started. Getting on at an off-start time basically means there’s no reason to do any organizing. Dead map.
Which is why I make the point that the timer shouldn’t begin until the three camps are populated. And probably add a victory buff at the end to squelch map-hopping. Making the meta available at any time would helps groups form up and make the map more playable.

Rauderi.8706:

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

There are probably a large number of players who figure they should just be able to play the game and never go to forums, wiki, etc. who think that DS and lots of other content is just broken. Cause really if you have to go research content outside the game it is kinda broken.

This is kind of like saying “if you have to read the manual to figure it out, it’s broken.”

More like, “if you have to use the wiki, the designers were being lazy.” :P
But that’s high-minded game philosophy claptrap and not relevant to this particular topic.

Dragon Stand. Great map. Shoddy group execution. And we all know it.
Yes, one might sneak into the One Sacred Map if one tries hard enough, spamming LFG groups and trying to taxi via squad. It’s cluncky, and a player(ish)-driven mechanism to a problem that should be handled by the game’s internal systems.

The map could work in a way that didn’t actively encourage taxiing and rushing the map at just the right time. The biggest roadblock is the 2-hour cycle that enforces map closure, even if a meta never got started. Getting on at an off-start time basically means there’s no reason to do any organizing. Dead map.
Which is why I make the point that the timer shouldn’t begin until the three camps are populated. And probably add a victory buff at the end to squelch map-hopping. Making the meta available at any time would helps groups form up and make the map more playable.

I actually think not timegating would kill the map, because of you know when it starts a buffer group gathers, otherwise people would go check from time to time and find nobody

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Are people really that helpless or are they too clouded to open the wiki or google it? It’s more work to begin a new thread than google it to find out within about 1 or 2 minutes how this map works.

There are a number of people who have very limited time to play, and many MMOs that you CAN just get in and play without having to consult outside sources. If you only have 1 hour to play you want to spend that time playing the game, not reading about playing the game. And additionally there are probably people who will go to an empty DS and simply conclude that it is just not popular or not working. Why would they even think that they have to look it up online to “find out how it works”. Shouldn’t it just work or be made clear from within the game?

If you only have an hour to play it wouldn’t matter anyway. DS takes longer than that. Play on a day when you have more time.

The meta takes more time, but how would a player know that? And what about the various events that you can do even if you’re not going for the meta? One would think that people might be in the map to just do events, gather, map complete, open pods, etc. like other maps, except that this isn’t the case most of the time.

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

There are probably a large number of players who figure they should just be able to play the game and never go to forums, wiki, etc. who think that DS and lots of other content is just broken. Cause really if you have to go research content outside the game it is kinda broken.

This is kind of like saying “if you have to read the manual to figure it out, it’s broken.”

Is GW2 the first MMO you’ve played? In MMOs there is no manual. The developers manage to make the game intuitive or they supply in-game hints if it isn’t. A gaming company should want players to spend time in the game…

Djinn.9245:

DarcShriek.5829:

Djinn.9245:

There are probably a large number of players who figure they should just be able to play the game and never go to forums, wiki, etc. who think that DS and lots of other content is just broken. Cause really if you have to go research content outside the game it is kinda broken.

This is kind of like saying “if you have to read the manual to figure it out, it’s broken.”

Is GW2 the first MMO you’ve played? In MMOs there is no manual. The developers manage to make the game intuitive or they supply in-game hints if it isn’t. A gaming company should want players to spend time in the game…

I’ve played a ton of MMOs and I"ve never played one where I didn’t have to go outside the game to find stuff out. Not once ever. Not in any game I’ve played. Some things just didn’t make sense.

The only exception is when I have someone in game teaching me things I wouldn’t have known.

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Are people really that helpless or are they too clouded to open the wiki or google it? It’s more work to begin a new thread than google it to find out within about 1 or 2 minutes how this map works.

There are a number of people who have very limited time to play, and many MMOs that you CAN just get in and play without having to consult outside sources. If you only have 1 hour to play you want to spend that time playing the game, not reading about playing the game. And additionally there are probably people who will go to an empty DS and simply conclude that it is just not popular or not working. Why would they even think that they have to look it up online to “find out how it works”. Shouldn’t it just work or be made clear from within the game?

If you only have an hour to play it wouldn’t matter anyway. DS takes longer than that. Play on a day when you have more time.

Or accept that the game design doesn’t allow you to ever complete that portion of the game and be left feeling deflated.

A lot of people with jobs have ‘only’ an hour to play at any one time- perhaps after putting the kids to bed and their own bedtime. Hence why DS is such a bad design. The map itself should always be accessable to be able to complete it and grab the mastery points.

Locking content behind ‘mega’ events, timers, having to search outside sources, bringing in masteries locked behind all sorts of ‘content’ that looks like it fell off SMB8’s cutting room floor, etc to name but a few, puts people off.

Baldrick.8967:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Are people really that helpless or are they too clouded to open the wiki or google it? It’s more work to begin a new thread than google it to find out within about 1 or 2 minutes how this map works.

There are a number of people who have very limited time to play, and many MMOs that you CAN just get in and play without having to consult outside sources. If you only have 1 hour to play you want to spend that time playing the game, not reading about playing the game. And additionally there are probably people who will go to an empty DS and simply conclude that it is just not popular or not working. Why would they even think that they have to look it up online to “find out how it works”. Shouldn’t it just work or be made clear from within the game?

If you only have an hour to play it wouldn’t matter anyway. DS takes longer than that. Play on a day when you have more time.

Or accept that the game design doesn’t allow you to ever complete that portion of the game and be left feeling deflated.

A lot of people with jobs have ‘only’ an hour to play at any one time- perhaps after putting the kids to bed and their own bedtime. Hence why DS is such a bad design. The map itself should always be accessable to be able to complete it and grab the mastery points.

Locking content behind ‘mega’ events, timers, having to search outside sources, bringing in masteries locked behind all sorts of ‘content’ that looks like it fell off SMB8’s cutting room floor, etc to name but a few, puts people off.

Thank god then that there is this thing called single player games that you can play for an hour at a time and complete everything on your own

Baldrick.8967:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Are people really that helpless or are they too clouded to open the wiki or google it? It’s more work to begin a new thread than google it to find out within about 1 or 2 minutes how this map works.

There are a number of people who have very limited time to play, and many MMOs that you CAN just get in and play without having to consult outside sources. If you only have 1 hour to play you want to spend that time playing the game, not reading about playing the game. And additionally there are probably people who will go to an empty DS and simply conclude that it is just not popular or not working. Why would they even think that they have to look it up online to “find out how it works”. Shouldn’t it just work or be made clear from within the game?

If you only have an hour to play it wouldn’t matter anyway. DS takes longer than that. Play on a day when you have more time.

Or accept that the game design doesn’t allow you to ever complete that portion of the game and be left feeling deflated.

A lot of people with jobs have ‘only’ an hour to play at any one time- perhaps after putting the kids to bed and their own bedtime. Hence why DS is such a bad design. The map itself should always be accessable to be able to complete it and grab the mastery points.

Locking content behind ‘mega’ events, timers, having to search outside sources, bringing in masteries locked behind all sorts of ‘content’ that looks like it fell off SMB8’s cutting room floor, etc to name but a few, puts people off.

Not everyone wants cookie cutter games that fit your extremely limited schedule. It’s not bad design.

Just as a side note, today I ran through two complete DS meta cycles, and left while a third was running. All with good leadership, etc. So, uh, the US is doing the meta routinely…

Seems pretty bad if you have to be on the map so long before an event that is already over an hour long or spend the next 30+ mins hoping you get onto a full map.

This won’t be a problem when the next expansion hits as everyone will leave these areas empty practically for new ones, then only new people going through will be screwed trying to get enough people to go through.

Baldrick.8967:

A lot of people with jobs have ‘only’ an hour to play at any one time- perhaps after putting the kids to bed and their own bedtime. Hence why DS is such a bad design. The map itself should always be accessable to be able to complete it and grab the mastery points.

Locking content behind ‘mega’ events, timers, having to search outside sources, bringing in masteries locked behind all sorts of ‘content’ that looks like it fell off SMB8’s cutting room floor, etc to name but a few, puts people off.

This is a very harmful approach for game design. All this “I’m adult, I don’t have time for this, so make it suit me”. If you want to go to cinema with friends/family you manage your free time to fit it in. That is what adults do, right? Work more today so you can have more rest tomorrow, and you have your 2 free hours after work or on a weekend. What you don’t do is bombarding film directors with demand to make AAA movies 30 min long.
Same with Dragon Stand. It was ment to be a long, hard and epic fight. Its the directors vision if you wish. If you can’t find time for it – sorry, this content is not for you.

etienne.1039:

Is there EVER some action on Dragon’s Stand? All the time I come there the map is deserted. So when is the best time to come there?

That’s because the meta takes place on a different map.

You join a squad about 15 mins before it starts (either on location or via LFG); then the whole squad “dies” and is teleported to the actual event version of the map. And yes, that one’s the biggest action event you’ve seen in GW2 so far.

For the exact times, check this website: http://gw2timer.com/

Djinn.9245:

I have played many MMOs from Everquest on. In almost every single one, I have not gotten to an area and thought “what do I do here?” And those MMOs which people have not been able to figure out what to do in-game I consider badly designed or broken.

I have to admit that this is indeed the case in GW2. It is anything but self-explanatory and difficult to master for newbies. There are no tutorials, no manuals, no explanations, no guides. You have to gather all information by either asking or looking things up on GW2 Wiki or Google. It’s truly one of GW2’s weak spots.

Sorry, but it’s a freaking MMO, they are complex game, rather among the most complex games. Therefor it is needed to google stuff. And besides: asking in the forum and waiting for an answer takes a lot longer than just goolge it within 1-2 minutes.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Just as a side note, today I ran through two complete DS meta cycles, and left while a third was running. All with good leadership, etc. So, uh, the US is doing the meta routinely…

Are you calling 2 times “routinely” or did you leave out information that you have run it on a regular basis with the same success?

Ashantara.8731:

Djinn.9245:

I have played many MMOs from Everquest on. In almost every single one, I have not gotten to an area and thought “what do I do here?” And those MMOs which people have not been able to figure out what to do in-game I consider badly designed or broken.

I have to admit that this is indeed the case in GW2. It is anything but self-explanatory and difficult to master for newbies. There are no tutorials, no manuals, no explanations, no guides. You have to gather all information by either asking or looking things up on GW2 Wiki or Google. It’s truly one of GW2’s weak spots.

Yep, if you think about it asking your players to spend “game time” looking at something that is not your game is a terrible idea.

Djinn.9245:

Ashantara.8731:

Djinn.9245:

I have played many MMOs from Everquest on. In almost every single one, I have not gotten to an area and thought “what do I do here?” And those MMOs which people have not been able to figure out what to do in-game I consider badly designed or broken.

I have to admit that this is indeed the case in GW2. It is anything but self-explanatory and difficult to master for newbies. There are no tutorials, no manuals, no explanations, no guides. You have to gather all information by either asking or looking things up on GW2 Wiki or Google. It’s truly one of GW2’s weak spots.

Yep, if you think about it asking your players to spend “game time” looking at something that is not your game is a terrible idea.

I have yet to play a game in which all the mechanics and quests were covered in a way that them accessible to the majority of players. As an extreme example, the Wizardry series of single-player RPGs prided itself on making some things difficult to learn.

In an MMO, it makes sense that developers would want to encourage players to cooperate to figure out how to complete large group content.

Besides that, MMOs are so vast these days that it’s nearly impossible for them to offer all the information in game that folks might reasonably expect. That’s why ANet funds server/tech to support the wiki.

Of course ANet can (and imo, should) do better, ensuring that players learn and can practice basics. Currently, the game gates content for those who haven’t learned active defense or how to break defiance, without offering tools for learning those things. There are any number of ways they could make that easier (and more obvious).

All the same, I don’t expect that everything I want to learn about this game is going to be found in the game; there’s plenty of “basics” that almost require someone experienced (or clever) to explain them.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Sorry, but it’s a freaking MMO, they are complex game, rather among the most complex games. Therefor it is needed to google stuff. And besides: asking in the forum and waiting for an answer takes a lot longer than just goolge it within 1-2 minutes.

Nobody is complaining about the complexity of the game — it’s what makes it fun to play! The complaint was about the lack of ways to grasp the game’s complexity without doing extensive research on your own via third party mechanics (websites, guides etc.). GW1 was less complex, true, and it had tutorials GW2 is sorely missing. How much fun do you think I am having explaining the same basics over and over (and over) again to newbies in my guild or in the big cities? It’s ridiculous how little information is being provided by the game itself even about the most basic elements of the game.

Ashantara.8731:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Sorry, but it’s a freaking MMO, they are complex game, rather among the most complex games. Therefor it is needed to google stuff. And besides: asking in the forum and waiting for an answer takes a lot longer than just goolge it within 1-2 minutes.

Nobody is complaining about the complexity of the game — it’s what makes it fun to play! The complaint was about the lack of ways to grasp the game’s complexity without doing extensive research on your own via third party mechanics (websites, guides etc.). GW1 was less complex, true, and it had tutorials GW2 is sorely missing. How much fun do you think I am having explaining the same basics over and over (and over) again to newbies in my guild or in the big cities? It’s ridiculous how little information is being provided by the game itself even about the most basic elements of the game.

I don’t really see it as a problem, I regularly asked wiki back in GW1, and so I did in WoW. Sometimes a little extra thinking is just necessary, and you can either complain about it, or just do it. I mean, is it really that much effort to open wiki every once in a while?

Djinn.9245:

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Just as a side note, today I ran through two complete DS meta cycles, and left while a third was running. All with good leadership, etc. So, uh, the US is doing the meta routinely…

Are you calling 2 times “routinely” or did you leave out information that you have run it on a regular basis with the same success?

I am, in fact, omitting the times that I ran through a successful DS meta recently on the path to obtaining the plated (and, thus, machined) weapons, and the from-noxious-pod collection items, used to unlock elite spec ascended weapons on my various alts.

I would, however, call “three meta cycles in a row, no gaps, on a single day” also compelling evidence that this is being done successfully on a routine basis – even if it is only on Saturday.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Ashantara.8731:

Djinn.9245:

I have played many MMOs from Everquest on. In almost every single one, I have not gotten to an area and thought “what do I do here?” And those MMOs which people have not been able to figure out what to do in-game I consider badly designed or broken.

I have to admit that this is indeed the case in GW2. It is anything but self-explanatory and difficult to master for newbies. There are no tutorials, no manuals, no explanations, no guides. You have to gather all information by either asking or looking things up on GW2 Wiki or Google. It’s truly one of GW2’s weak spots.

Yep, if you think about it asking your players to spend “game time” looking at something that is not your game is a terrible idea.

I have yet to play a game in which all the mechanics and quests were covered in a way that them accessible to the majority of players. .

I don’t know what games you play, but we have almost completely opposed experiences. I enter a game and play. Usually it is obvious what I am supposed to do.

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Ashantara.8731:

Djinn.9245:

I have played many MMOs from Everquest on. In almost every single one, I have not gotten to an area and thought “what do I do here?” And those MMOs which people have not been able to figure out what to do in-game I consider badly designed or broken.

I have to admit that this is indeed the case in GW2. It is anything but self-explanatory and difficult to master for newbies. There are no tutorials, no manuals, no explanations, no guides. You have to gather all information by either asking or looking things up on GW2 Wiki or Google. It’s truly one of GW2’s weak spots.

Yep, if you think about it asking your players to spend “game time” looking at something that is not your game is a terrible idea.

I have yet to play a game in which all the mechanics and quests were covered in a way that them accessible to the majority of players. .

I don’t know what games you play, but we have almost completely opposed experiences. I enter a game and play. Usually it is obvious what I am supposed to do.

For me, sure: most of the time, I just play. A lot of stuff is obvious. Are you claiming that everything in every game you played was obvious to you and to everyone else? There’s always techniques, mechanics, and yes, even quests in which how to proceed isn’t clear if you misunderstand the game’s hints.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Ashantara.8731:

Djinn.9245:

I have played many MMOs from Everquest on. In almost every single one, I have not gotten to an area and thought “what do I do here?” And those MMOs which people have not been able to figure out what to do in-game I consider badly designed or broken.

I have to admit that this is indeed the case in GW2. It is anything but self-explanatory and difficult to master for newbies. There are no tutorials, no manuals, no explanations, no guides. You have to gather all information by either asking or looking things up on GW2 Wiki or Google. It’s truly one of GW2’s weak spots.

Yep, if you think about it asking your players to spend “game time” looking at something that is not your game is a terrible idea.

I have yet to play a game in which all the mechanics and quests were covered in a way that them accessible to the majority of players. .

I don’t know what games you play, but we have almost completely opposed experiences. I enter a game and play. Usually it is obvious what I am supposed to do.

For me, sure: most of the time, I just play. A lot of stuff is obvious. Are you claiming that everything in every game you played was obvious to you and to everyone else? There’s always techniques, mechanics, and yes, even quests in which how to proceed isn’t clear if you misunderstand the game’s hints.

No, I’m not talking about a tiny portion of any game. I’m talking about the majority of the game. HoT maps are an entire expansion and a huge portion of GW2.

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Djinn.9245:

Ashantara.8731:

Djinn.9245:

I have played many MMOs from Everquest on. In almost every single one, I have not gotten to an area and thought “what do I do here?” And those MMOs which people have not been able to figure out what to do in-game I consider badly designed or broken.

I have to admit that this is indeed the case in GW2. It is anything but self-explanatory and difficult to master for newbies. There are no tutorials, no manuals, no explanations, no guides. You have to gather all information by either asking or looking things up on GW2 Wiki or Google. It’s truly one of GW2’s weak spots.

Yep, if you think about it asking your players to spend “game time” looking at something that is not your game is a terrible idea.

I have yet to play a game in which all the mechanics and quests were covered in a way that them accessible to the majority of players. .

I don’t know what games you play, but we have almost completely opposed experiences. I enter a game and play. Usually it is obvious what I am supposed to do.

For me, sure: most of the time, I just play. A lot of stuff is obvious. Are you claiming that everything in every game you played was obvious to you and to everyone else? There’s always techniques, mechanics, and yes, even quests in which how to proceed isn’t clear if you misunderstand the game’s hints.

No, I’m not talking about a tiny portion of any game. I’m talking about the majority of the game. HoT maps are an entire expansion and a huge portion of GW2.

Yes, it is an entire expansion and a huge portion of the game. But then are you claiming that everything (or let’s say “most things”) in HoT are not obvious or at least obvious enough and with sufficient information provided that a player cannot figure it out on their own?

I can agree that I would rather just log in and play. But I don’t think Dragon’s Stand is broken simply because it doesn’t work that way. It is my least favorite map of HoT, but I like that it exists because it offers a unique experience you won’t see in any other map in the game. That this requires a different way of doing things is not unreasonable, in my opinion.

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

No, I’m not talking about a tiny portion of any game. I’m talking about the majority of the game. HoT maps are an entire expansion and a huge portion of GW2.

Yes, it is an entire expansion and a huge portion of the game. But then are you claiming that everything (or let’s say “most things”) in HoT are not obvious or at least obvious enough and with sufficient information provided that a player cannot figure it out on their own?

I can agree that I would rather just log in and play. But I don’t think Dragon’s Stand is broken simply because it doesn’t work that way. It is my least favorite map of HoT, but I like that it exists because it offers a unique experience you won’t see in any other map in the game. That this requires a different way of doing things is not unreasonable, in my opinion.

HoT maps have “meta” events which reward currencies that it are very difficult to get in other ways. The only non-HoT meta that even approaches the complexity of HoT metas (imo) is Triple Trouble. But no special currency is locked behind doing TT. Certainly players can figure out the smaller events that make up the metas, but those smaller events aren’t the goal to get those currencies. That’s why so few people hang out in DS. In HoT maps, (generally) almost no one is there if they aren’t doing the Meta.

So it really doesn’t matter if players can figure out the smaller events. If all you need is XP / Karma / gold, you go to Core Tyria where there aren’t a hoard of ccing mobs.

As for DS: something can be broken and still be good. (Venus de Milo, etc.) That doesn’t mean it is MORE desireable in a broken state than it would be if it wasn’t broken.

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

No, I’m not talking about a tiny portion of any game. I’m talking about the majority of the game. HoT maps are an entire expansion and a huge portion of GW2.

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Snip

HoT maps have “meta” events which reward currencies that it are very difficult to get in other ways. The only non-HoT meta that even approaches the complexity of HoT metas (imo) is Triple Trouble. But no special currency is locked behind doing TT. Certainly players can figure out the smaller events that make up the metas, but those smaller events aren’t the goal to get those currencies. That’s why so few people hang out in DS. In HoT maps, (generally) almost no one is there if they aren’t doing the Meta.

So it really doesn’t matter if players can figure out the smaller events. If all you need is XP / Karma / gold, you go to Core Tyria where there aren’t a hoard of ccing mobs.

As for DS: something can be broken and still be good. (Venus de Milo, etc.) That doesn’t mean it is MORE desireable in a broken state than it would be if it wasn’t broken.

This is mostly not true. It’s not true that if you’re not doing the meta you don’t hang out in HoT maps. There are definitely people who are doing the meta and that’s all they do, but it’s not all people, and not even necessarily most people. I’m on HoT maps all the time for reasons other than doing the meta.

Hero points runs reward currency and people do them all the time. It’s one reason to be on HoT maps other than the meta, but there’s more.

You can easily, EASILY get currency in VB and TD without doing the meta. In fact, it’s probably easier to get the TD currency without doing the meta.

The fact that people who don’t run this content all the time make these judgements about it, and then promote this “knowledge” on the forums, doesn’t help the new zones. If you don’t go there, and you don’t know the zones, it’s probably best to stop making definitive statements about the zones.

In TD for example, you get most of your currency from caches, which are opened with chak acid. Most events reward chak acid, so you can open those chests without spending currency.

You get 75 ley-line crystals (that’s the currency of TD) from beating the meta. I can make many many times that without doing the meta in the same amount of time it takes to do the meta.

In fact, many caches reward you with 30 ley-line crystals. Open three of those and you get more crystals than you get for doing the meta. Furthermore, I can solo most events in most chains, if I have to, but with only 2 or three people I can do just about all the events.

And remember, hero points reward 20 leyline crystals, so 4 hero points will give you as much currency as doing the meta.

You say no one goes into HOT maps except to do the meta, but the VB daytime events have nothing to do with the meta anymore. Night and day were decoupled back in the April patch 9 months ago. Since then, I still see people doing day chains, even though there’s no attachment to the meta. Again events reward crossbars, which give you currency from the crates you pry open. You do not need to run the meta to get credit in VB or TD.

AB it’s faster to do the meta, because so many chests are locked behind a successful meta. However, you can open those chests, even if you don’t participate in the meta. You won’t get the hero’s choice chest with the extra keys. But you can just do events, get keys, and then wait until the meta is done (it often succeeeds in AB) and then you can loot the chests. So there’s three zones you don’t have to do the meta, and you can get currency.

Dragonstand is by far the hardest zone to get currency in and you can get that currency without doing the meta, even solo. It means learning how to avoid foes, while going into maps and farming the pods that are there. There’s not many. It’s a long, slow process, but it’s absolutely doable.

Of course, Dragon Stand is not hard to get the meta done. Evidence. I’ve been needing crystaline Ore for the minis sold in guild halls and every single time I go to DS I get into the group and we beat the meta.

You don’t like the HoT maps, so you’re going to judge them based on your limited experience. Maybe there’s a think or two you don’t realize.