Guild Wars 2

Didn’t they something about raids being very hard for you pug?

Leo G.4501:

Yeah, because you can’t swap your utility skills or specializations in an instance…

During combat you can’t. During dungeon run, it’s almost never plausible. You can swap a couple utitility skills, but that’s not going to do a whole lot.

Leo G.4501:

Explain how a build isn’t a hybrid unless you completely ignore that you can take 2 other spec lines and you have the option swap in whatever utilities you want, use whatever gear types you want or what weapon skills you want to use.

Elite specs seem to me similar in concept to revenant, in that they’re made into complete ‘package’. Staff skills, glyphs, and elite spec line have a very clear theme – and in my opinion more singleminded than other elite specs. There’s a reason why they say it’s druid, not ranger. If you take on all of it, it fully defines your output, the only exception being the other weapon(set) you swap into, and your pet.

DPS and healing are two different focuses. ‘Not hybrid’ means tuning your stats and remaining traits to support playing the ‘druid way’ – e.g. being efficient with staff and glyphs. Being hybrid means giving up some of your healing potential to support DPS on your other weapon. And possibly swapping a couple of glyphs to other skills.

With celestial gear you might find some middle-ground. But the question is, how much use do you get from elite spec then, and would you be better served simply forgetting it and building a pure ranger spec. Unless you focus on being highly efficient healer, is there any point to it?

Leo G.4501:

And the spec line does have traits that do more than heal. There is soft and hard CC in the tree. Are you intentionally ignoring that?

And the staff autoattack can ‘DPS’. Are you serious? If you are talking in PvP context though, then that may be different – but my focus is in PvE. Whether druid is useful spec for PvP, I’ll leave that debate for someone who is more qualified to comment on it.

Leo G.4501:

You should preface your argument with PvP, WvW or PvE. Obviously you’re talking from a PvE point of view and I’d agree with you about most content not needed a lot of healing but that still doesn’t invalidate the other portions of the game that may benefit from a specific specialization.

However, I can’t agree with you because your speculation is far too close-minded. You’ve obviously jumped on the “It’s a healer ONLY” bandwagon and forewent any other possible combinations of skills resulting in new approaches for the Ranger. I mean, you do realize much of the complaints about Ranger in groups was their lack of group support, yes? Not only does the spec offer a good amount of possible healing but also the amount of CC (dazes and immobilize) can offer lots of added benefit for your group and your pet.

True – yes, I’m speaking purely from PvE side. Yes, anything can benefit from more healing, but I don’t believe it’s a net gain to focus on it – because GW2 balance just isn’t designed for it. I can keep up constant regen to party without druid spec, and throw in water field plus finisher in time of need – and I don’t need to give up a trait line and utility slots for it. I simply don’t believe that more than that is warranted at the cost it brings along.

Yes, I believe the druid spec is ‘healer only’. I did say you have option of making a hybrid, I do fully recognize that possibility. But the point is I believe the cost is too high for making a ‘hybrid’ when you can get ‘enough’ healing without the sacrifice. I can’t see the point to taking druid spec unless you capitalize on it, and that I feel is worthless to do.

Leo G.4501:

Posters like yourself, I can almost certainly read exactly your viewpoint like an open book: The Ranger didn’t get a perma-stow pet or non-pet spec option thus it already was a strike-out for you. It’d be a lot easier if you help the entire forum out if you just admit this first and cease all this “omg healz, DOOM” nonsense.

No, on that count you are entirely wrong. I picked ranger main -because- it’s the only true pet class in my opinion. Petless ranger would not be a ranger and I’d have no interest playing it. I’d rather pick a bow warrior. Being able to stow a pet during combat would be useful yes – but it would be a mixed blessing because then you’d be -expected- to do it frequently, and you’d be playing with one hand tied behind your back. FYI, I’ve always kept the pet-focused traitline in my builds.

One nice option for druid might have been a few ‘non-combat’ support type pets though – while by no means the only possibility, it would have given a different kind of gameplay option – a unique take to support mechanism if you will.

Also, just to clear this up: I have nothing against trinity system per se. FFXIV for example has a balance that’s fully centered around tank/heal/DPS, and it works very well – I’ve had great fun there. And it so happens I usually play as a healer in dungeons – and once you get a bit further in levels it’s in no way boring or simple. I wouldn’t really have minded if GW2 was based around similar system – but it isn’t. It largely revolves around stack-stack-stack deps-deps-deps stack-stack-stack deps-deps-deps, as it is. I’m not saying that’s a good thing, but I’m saying bringing a fully healing-focused elite spec into the mix isn’t going to make it better.

This whole argument is based around this idea that you’re going to PUG raids like dungeons.

They flat out said on twitch that PUGs will most likely not be a thing for raids due to the high level of mechanical difficulty requiring your raid group to actually build around one another.

Will people eventually come up with a “Raid PUG Meta”? Of course they will. It’ll likely be whatever party composition makes the “world first clear” video.

If just picking the PUG meta builds was enough to pull off a raid, it’s not a very well designed raid. The whole idea is that everyone in your group really has to be on the ball. Raids are usually not PUG content for this reason. More than one or two randoms in a raid group in most games throws off your timing or performance enough that it’s not worth the failure risk.

Make no mistake that this content isn’t designed around PUGs. It’s designed to encourage people to develop regular raiding groups that learn the content and develop strategies together, and practice them until they get it down.

PopeUrban.2578:

This whole argument is based around this idea that you’re going to PUG raids like dungeons.

They flat out said on twitch that PUGs will most likely not be a thing for raids due to the high level of mechanical difficulty requiring your raid group to actually build around one another.

Will people eventually come up with a “Raid PUG Meta”? Of course they will. It’ll likely be whatever party composition makes the “world first clear” video.

If just picking the PUG meta builds was enough to pull off a raid, it’s not a very well designed raid. The whole idea is that everyone in your group really has to be on the ball. Raids are usually not PUG content for this reason. More than one or two randoms in a raid group in most games throws off your timing or performance enough that it’s not worth the failure risk.

Make no mistake that this content isn’t designed around PUGs. It’s designed to encourage people to develop regular raiding groups that learn the content and develop strategies together, and practice them until they get it down.

I’m thinking less about raids and more about current dungeons/fractals. I’m mostly worried that when you see a druid in dungeon/fractal party, first thought people will have is ‘oh crap, it’s going to be slow clear’.. and if they see two, they’ll figure they may as well give up and find a better group.

Raids may be designed for guilds, but if they allow pugs too, then they have to be eventually toned down so pugs -can- do them, or there will be a huge kitten storm on the forums. Fractals are easier for people to understand because they progress naturally and higher tiers are gated behind your progress. Raids would also have to have that kind of mechanic for people to accept their difficulty/impossibility (for pugs).

Basically if you are allowed to try it, then you expect you should have a reasonable chance to finish it. GW2 is designed to hold your hand like that, and it would be very difficult to change that now. The simplest way for raids would probably be to allow people to queue a particular raid only after they’ve finished it at least once in a pre-made group. That way when they queue in PUG, they have an idea what they’re getting into. Otherwise a single first-timer will probably drag down a group of vets, and no one will be happy about that.

Once raids settle down so they are PUG-viable, they’ll have same issues as dungeons/fractals, only more pronounced – because if they are more difficult, then unbalance in a group is more likely to lead into failure, instead of just slowing down the clear.

Their entire goal structure with raids is not just that they’re challenging, but that they remain so throughout the life of the game.

I’m not saying Anet hasn’t reversed course on things before, but they did go out of their way to hire entirely new staff to set up and maintain this system, and they’re intentionally putting the wings on a drip feed so that they can revise the design in the instance that it becomes too easy.

They’re heavily invested in the concept of challenge for this content. From Anet’s point of view raids are not “big dungeons” but rather their answer to where dungeons failed.

They didn’t opt to fix the dungeons for the same reason they didn’t make old legendaries account bound. Past a certain point content and the way players use it becomes fixed. Making the dungeons shift with the meta people figured out to run them would drastically shift the difficulty in acquiring rewards going forward.

This new raids initiative, and HoT PvE in general, is their last straw to retain players that have been the harshest critics of the PvE in this game. They don’t use the words ’living narrative" as the selling point for the PvE. They use the words “progression” and “challenge” for a reason.

They built the entire release cadence around making sure if peope find a broken comp to easy-mode wing one, that broken comp and the encounter design will be tweaked before wing two is released, and so on for wing 3, and the next raid, etc.

They’re looking at raids like they look at living world releases, as a major portion of the ongoing live release strategy. They haven’t reversed course on living world because it is, for them, a huge selling point for the game and something they care about. They have been invested in it from day 1 as an idea and have done tons of design and software enhancements to improve that system because, hey, they thought it more important that new content is good than that old content is bad.

That’s something they never said about dungeons. They never said “dungeons are an important part of our live release strategy” or “we want dungeons to remain challenging”

Dungeons are considrered “finished” content. Anet has already adjusted the rewards around cheesing them, so they’re okay with people cheesing them. It’s a decent half-step between the open world and their new raids. They also built a set of expectations with dungeons that I don’t think they want to continue. The whole “story and 3 explorable paths” thing is a LOT of work for one piece of content of medium difficulty.

For the actual challenging content they’re focused on raids (which are big releases) and fractals (which can be developed like dungeons but in much smaller chunks without the expectation of voiced plotline or multiple lengthy paths)

You were allowed to try any content in GW1, and they never went out of their way to dumb it down. Doing Kanaxi, Urgoz, UW, or FoW today is just as challenging as it was at release. That’s what they’re attempting to do with raids and fractals going forward. Bring back a sense of accomplishment to group instances, not make those instances easy to find groups for.

Beldin.5498:

Extreme.8350:

You are not gonna wait around for druid its the second most played class
but everyone tell them to re roll guardian because it sucks but there will be
plenty of healers if it turns out to be meta which you don’t know.

But all those healer suck hard because they run around with bears, no matter
that maybe cats will die in 2 seconds at raids anyway .. but better a dead cat
than a bear

Oh .. and btw. @Iason Evan.3806 : there you have your “stow pet” function .. just let it die ^^

Aren’t drakes almost as tanky while still having high power, and, against non-moving targets, possess one of the most damaging attacks of any pet.

Kitsune.1902:

PopeUrban.2578:

This whole argument is based around this idea that you’re going to PUG raids like dungeons.

They flat out said on twitch that PUGs will most likely not be a thing for raids due to the high level of mechanical difficulty requiring your raid group to actually build around one another.

Will people eventually come up with a “Raid PUG Meta”? Of course they will. It’ll likely be whatever party composition makes the “world first clear” video.

If just picking the PUG meta builds was enough to pull off a raid, it’s not a very well designed raid. The whole idea is that everyone in your group really has to be on the ball. Raids are usually not PUG content for this reason. More than one or two randoms in a raid group in most games throws off your timing or performance enough that it’s not worth the failure risk.

Make no mistake that this content isn’t designed around PUGs. It’s designed to encourage people to develop regular raiding groups that learn the content and develop strategies together, and practice them until they get it down.

I’m thinking less about raids and more about current dungeons/fractals. I’m mostly worried that when you see a druid in dungeon/fractal party, first thought people will have is ‘oh crap, it’s going to be slow clear’.. and if they see two, they’ll figure they may as well give up and find a better group.

Raids may be designed for guilds, but if they allow pugs too, then they have to be eventually toned down so pugs -can- do them, or there will be a huge kitten storm on the forums. Fractals are easier for people to understand because they progress naturally and higher tiers are gated behind your progress. Raids would also have to have that kind of mechanic for people to accept their difficulty/impossibility (for pugs).

Basically if you are allowed to try it, then you expect you should have a reasonable chance to finish it. GW2 is designed to hold your hand like that, and it would be very difficult to change that now. The simplest way for raids would probably be to allow people to queue a particular raid only after they’ve finished it at least once in a pre-made group. That way when they queue in PUG, they have an idea what they’re getting into. Otherwise a single first-timer will probably drag down a group of vets, and no one will be happy about that.

Once raids settle down so they are PUG-viable, they’ll have same issues as dungeons/fractals, only more pronounced – because if they are more difficult, then unbalance in a group is more likely to lead into failure, instead of just slowing down the clear.

That’s it, you’ve inspired me. Next BWE I wanna try running 5 man’s with an all druid group now. Should be interesting if nothing else.

Beldin.5498:

Extreme.8350:

You are not gonna wait around for druid its the second most played class
but everyone tell them to re roll guardian because it sucks but there will be
plenty of healers if it turns out to be meta which you don’t know.

But all those healer suck hard because they run around with bears, no matter
that maybe cats will die in 2 seconds at raids anyway .. but better a dead cat
than a bear

Oh .. and btw. @Iason Evan.3806 : there you have your “stow pet” function .. just let it die ^^

How dare those bearstaff druids run around with their condi cleanses and weakness. ;p

PopeUrban.2578:

Their entire goal structure with raids is not just that they’re challenging, but that they remain so throughout the life of the game.

If raids are not accessible enough that normal people can do them, they’ll fail. Many, many MMOs have learned the hard way that hardcore raiders make up a tiny fraction of the population, and Anet appears to be dead-set on repeating that mistake.

Anet can’t afford to pour their finite resources into content most people can’t do, that’s a recipe for disaster.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

PopeUrban.2578:

Their entire goal structure with raids is not just that they’re challenging, but that they remain so throughout the life of the game.

If raids are not accessible enough that normal people can do them, they’ll fail. Many, many MMOs have learned the hard way that hardcore raiders make up a tiny fraction of the population, and Anet appears to be dead-set on repeating that mistake.

Anet can’t afford to pour their finite resources into content most people can’t do, that’s a recipe for disaster.

GW2 is not so dependent on raids as other games. I don’t see a problem to make them harder so normal pugs won’t be able to complete them.

This whole thread in a nut shell: “omg I dont want a Ranger(druid) cry cry I’m too stuck up to lower myself to running a ranger in my pve raids.. cry cry.. salty salty salt salt….”

salty like the ocean..

Get over it, druid brings so much team support and you just want to be one sided, the class isn’t just about Raids either so get that straight ranger needed (on top of all the fixes it needs) alot of team support, yes it may not exactly be what EVERYONE wanted, but since its 1 elite spec out of many.. how about stop cry like like a man child and deal with it

Chicho Gosho.6507:

GW2 is not so dependent on raids as other games. I don’t see a problem to make them harder so normal pugs won’t be able to complete them.

They’re not dependent on raids yet, but a frightening number of people want them to be!

If they keep adding raids as often as they seem to want to, let alone as often as you think they will, that’s an awful lot of resources for something most people can’t do. Eventually they’ll end up developing them at the expense of other content (which will rightfully anger all those excluded players) or they’ll decide the return isn’t worth it and abandon raids just like they’ve abandoned so many other things.

Sylent.3165:

Scenario 1 – raids are truly difficult, a dedicated healer is needed. That would be a druid. So if that’s the case every one will need a druid, raids will be sitting in lfg needing a druid. Thus creating the issue anet stated this game would never have of needing a dedicated healer or tank to do things thus no queues.

Scenario 2 – druid isn’t needed. A full dps team or team with minimal valkyrie or knights armor can still beat the raids making druid 100% useless and simply not needed.

Is there a scenario 3 I’m missing? I just see this game slowly trying to turn into an mmo that’s been dying over the years and using the old mechanics of old mmos. I feel like guild wars 2 doesn’t want to be guild wars 2 anymore.

Yes, there is another option you are missing. The almost infinite number of hybrid builds. Instead of having 1-2 dedicated healer builds, you can have 3-4 hybrid builds.

You are missing the fact that its not a single person game but a team game, and what matters is not the build or builds of a single person, but the total sum of capabilities of your team.

Also, within a raid, expect the team combo to change from encounter to encounter. I’m sure some encounters will be optimal using less heals or any sort of support, while some others will be the other way around.

In addition, your idea of support is focused entirely on healing, specifically druid line, but support can take many many forms other then that. Since originally the game was supposed to also have “Control” as part of the soft trinity, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some boss fights requiring this instead of healing entirely, or any mix of control / support to various degrees.

Chicho Gosho.6507:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

PopeUrban.2578:

Their entire goal structure with raids is not just that they’re challenging, but that they remain so throughout the life of the game.

If raids are not accessible enough that normal people can do them, they’ll fail. Many, many MMOs have learned the hard way that hardcore raiders make up a tiny fraction of the population, and Anet appears to be dead-set on repeating that mistake.

Anet can’t afford to pour their finite resources into content most people can’t do, that’s a recipe for disaster.

GW2 is not so dependent on raids as other games. I don’t see a problem to make them harder so normal pugs won’t be able to complete them.

Let me help you out then with a few examples from the top of my head.

The soccer mum problem:
“Oh, I cant afford to sit 5 hours in the warroom with my buddies because I have a familiy and a job. But I have some time to brwose in my workbreak for another game that has softer content and ask my friends to join there too so that we still can hang out together.”

The casual achiever problem:
“Hm, I really want the best equpiment, but can´t get it because I lack the time. Why bother playing when I will always stay KIND OF second rate?”

The talentless collector problem:
“I collected everything in this game, but basically suck at playing GW2. Skins are not on the TP and so out of my reach. What do I do now, pay my way in?”

So it is not so much of a problem of actual content, it potential accessibility and perception. GW2 has no monthly fee so it may actually work to play hardball with casuals, but it surely won´t be a selling argument for the big market of casual gamers. I am pretty Anet also knows this and wil bend over this problem over time.

Iason Evan.3806:

Beldin.5498:

Extreme.8350:

You are not gonna wait around for druid its the second most played class
but everyone tell them to re roll guardian because it sucks but there will be
plenty of healers if it turns out to be meta which you don’t know.

But all those healer suck hard because they run around with bears, no matter
that maybe cats will die in 2 seconds at raids anyway .. but better a dead cat
than a bear

Oh .. and btw. @Iason Evan.3806 : there you have your “stow pet” function .. just let it die ^^

:)

Dude bears (and moas) are going to be the best pets for healing…

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I can pretty well guarantee that dedicated healers will not be necessary for raids. Group healing may be, but dedicated healers will not.

Group healing is something that can be spread over the entire party. For example, a Guardian could run Healing Breeze instead of Shelter or Litany of Wrath in order to help the party survive. Necros could trait into Blood Magic for Transfusion instead of Curses or Soul Reaping. Thieves might even break out venom share with skelk venom!

There is also the possibility of using sets with Healing Power as a secondary stat like Zealot’s. Two Zealot’s geared party members could probably replace a Cleric’s geared and a Zerker’s geared in raid content.

Or you could centralize the healing duties onto one or two people, letting the others trait/build for more DPS and control.

Since all professions are capable of contributing to the healing effort, the need of an actual dedicated healer is really nonexistant. It’s a viable option, but not a hard requirement.

I agree with you on all classes having support skills, but why then would they even make so many healing changes to skills? Imo, it’s because they want more dedicated healers to be present in a group. Not necessarily a full healer, but more so than what we have now? The real question is how dedicated they want healers to be?
It definitely has potential to be a huge change in GW2, considering they are looking towards trinity more than they have in the past.