Guild Wars 2

The logical thing is to keep dungeon rewards as they are now and add same for fractials and raids so people can choose what like to do but noooo again arenanet want to do some none sense decision and remove them to make us do fractials and dungeons well you should let us choose what to do and stop telling us what you want us to do. MMORPG is about what people likes not what you like and wants us to do. Thats why you have so many people left the game . You need to start doing what people like not what you want us to like ……. I regret I trusted you and bought the HOT

Agree totally. I don’t see myself buying the expansion..

GW2 is more “play how you like” than pretty much anything out there. I think the only thing posts like these prove is that people are bound to freak out and make big knee-jerk decisions when faced with big change.

I.e. Nothing new here. Good luck searching for your mystical unicorn.

ANet has pretty much abandoned dungeons since TA/AP received an underwhelming response. I also can’t believe ANet has been pleased with the large gold faucet caused by the combo of end-loaded rewards and skipping. Finally, it’s my guess that this is ANet trying to kill two birds with one stone again by removing a faucet and putting a dagger into the exclusionary speed-run gold farm. The likely outcomes are that gold farmers will find another spot, probably SW or its HoT equivalents. Challenge seekers will push FotM and raids. The only ones left doing dungeons are likely to be those doing it for fun, which will likely mean less exclusion.

Arenanet:
Dungeons are so full of exploitable loopholes for speedrun farming that it would take virtually the same effort as designing new fractals to fix them. So we’re making farming them non-viable but leaving the skins and old legendary recipies there so they have a purpose.

OP:
WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN’T FARM BROKEN CONTENT? I WANT TO PLAY MY WAY!

Dude. They’re moving to fractals specifically because fractals are content with more longevity and are a quicker development turnaround. They didn’t design dungeons so people could speedrun CoF1. They don’t see the value in fixing the dungeons when it’s as much work as adding whole new fractals.

On top of that, the new fractal system eliminates the ability to reroll for the exact fractal you want, so they’re comfortable with placing rewards in a system that is, at the very basic level of its design, unfarmable.

On top of that they’re moving the farm to the open world, where it should have always been in the first place. Facerolling through instances which are supposed to be challenging content wasn’t intended play like ever. It was smart players exploiting a broken system.

Seems that they already know that Fractals and Raids will not be as popular as dungeons, and try to force people to move by other means.

I really don’t like methods of “fixing” things by destroying everything else until it is worse than what we want to “fix”.

I still remember the time Anet tried that with Ranger Longbow, when instead of fixing what was wrong with it they instead tried to make it more desirable by nerfing shortbow into the ground. Which, incidentally, didn’t work at all, and in the end they did have to make the necessary fixes anyway. Notice however, that, Shortbow still remained nerfed.

Anet, if you want people to play the content you designed, do it by making that content appealing, not by making everything else unappealing.

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet has pretty much abandoned dungeons since TA/AP received an underwhelming response.

That’s because Twilight Assault was just badly designed and almost noone liked it. It having bad rewards was just a last nail in its coffin.

Now, it seems they want to avoid the same problem repeating with raids by making sure they have no competition.

No, they know dungeons are so broken that it would take as much effort as designing new content to revamp them. Thus, they’re leaving them broken and removing the incentive to farm the broken content long term.

You know, so you have to go play the game that they’ve designed after watching people break their previous instanced content.

I see it as they don’t want another gold farm in the game and they want people to play their pet content, so the logical way to accomplish this is to remove rewards and incentives for running dungeons.

PopeUrban.2578:

Arenanet:
Dungeons are so full of exploitable loopholes for speedrun farming that it would take virtually the same effort as designing new fractals to fix them. So we’re making farming them non-viable but leaving the skins and old legendary recipies there so they have a purpose.

OP:
WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN’T FARM BROKEN CONTENT? I WANT TO PLAY MY WAY!

Dude. They’re moving to fractals specifically because fractals are content with more longevity and are a quicker development turnaround. They didn’t design dungeons so people could speedrun CoF1. They don’t see the value in fixing the dungeons when it’s as much work as adding whole new fractals.

On top of that, the new fractal system eliminates the ability to reroll for the exact fractal you want, so they’re comfortable with placing rewards in a system that is, at the very basic level of its design, unfarmable.

On top of that they’re moving the farm to the open world, where it should have always been in the first place. Facerolling through instances which are supposed to be challenging content wasn’t intended play like ever. It was smart players exploiting a broken system.

what are you talking about, the new fractal system lets you select any fractal you want to do.
Also fractals were just as exploitable, the main defense was the random nature of fractals.
expect COF p1 fractal farms now that they removed the randomized nature.

Also the numbering system on fractals is ungainly and will probably have to be redesigned before they start adding any new fractals.

mostly anet economy team just wanted to kill a gold faucet, decent gold earning should actually be in all content, with more earning the more skilled you are, though i dont enjoy dungeon meta, it best fits those ideas.

also dungeons was not the most effecient farm, and was also time gated

PopeUrban.2578:

No, they know dungeons are so broken that it would take as much effort as designing new content to revamp them.

And you assume that any new content won’t be broken in the beginning? Looking at some things they have shown us during last year, i’d say that yes, the new content will require at least the same amount of fixing, on top of designing it.
And (looking at the previous examples of content that anet left bugged because they’d rather make new content than fix older one) that new content will remain equally bugged.

Nah, it had nothing to do with it. It was simply the case of Anet wanting to buff up metrics for their new pet project because they knew it’d be a failure without it.

We’ve known for 2 years that they are moving away from dungeons as content. This is just the next logical step. Dungeons are the #1 source of inflation in GW2. By toning down the rewards there they can keep a much healthier game.

My favorite part of the blog post is “they’re often farmed”. And yet no mention about Silverwastes chest farming… How about removing a lot of rewards from that crap and put them behind actual content, like Verdant Brink (or other HoT zones) events and such.

@ZudetGambeous: if dungeons are #1 source of inflation in GW2 what is Silverwastes chest farming?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

We’ve known for 2 years that they are moving away from dungeons as content. This is just the next logical step. Dungeons are the #1 source of inflation in GW2. By toning down the rewards there they can keep a much healthier game.

inflation or lack of inflation doesnt equal a well designed game.
thats the flaw in the item design of gw2. Making the game suck, or having poor incentives does not make a better game.

this is why i say nothing good comes of tying anything to the economy reward wise in gw2. Because the goal of the economy in gw2 is that it should be should basically stay the same, and players exist to serve the economy, not vice versa.

I’ll rather farm SW than doing HoT raids with blue drops.

Its a sad fact of the game that people were doing repetitive dungeon paths, over and over, for three years, because, frankly, it gave them some form of income.

We are now at the stage where they have moved from shutting down farms into just shutting down even the miserable cash grinds that the game offers.

Which is sad as trading post flippers are going to be rolling in money on a scale that dungeon runners could only dream of.

Meh, I ran dungeons until I had enough gold to make twilight and craft full heavy ascended armor, it is definitely broken, I never dreamed that I would ever have enough to make a legendary before they changed the way rewards for dungeons worked. Before that change I probably had 100g at most at one time. it definitely had a gigantic impact on the economy.

It’s like “Buy HoT or you wont be able to earn gold efficiently”.

I dont mind farming gold through dungeons since there’s no other alternative for players to “become rich” (withouth paying with real money) although all this meta zerk stuff is really annoying so it’s nice to see that ANET is trying to create new alternative for us, but i’m afraid that all fract and raids paths will become as ’’wrecked’’ as dungeons are now.

All I want to say is that our community really needs new possibilities to earn gold and have fun ofc but I definitely wont weaken dungeons role since they really need some more improvements not worsening! Lets allow player to choose between equally valuable ways of gold farming (cause it’s impossible to remove this phenomenon from MMOs!!).

To be honest I DONT want to spend more money on this game than it’s necessary (not to mention the fact that old players have to pay twice for core version which is ’’free’’ ofc ) and I DONT want to spend much more of my daily free time on playing GW.

That’s why I WANT YOU TO KNOW ANET THAT I REPOSE MY TRUST IN YOU, DONT SCREW UP! Cheers

phys.7689:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

We’ve known for 2 years that they are moving away from dungeons as content. This is just the next logical step. Dungeons are the #1 source of inflation in GW2. By toning down the rewards there they can keep a much healthier game.

inflation or lack of inflation doesnt equal a well designed game.
thats the flaw in the item design of gw2. Making the game suck, or having poor incentives does not make a better game.

this is why i say nothing good comes of tying anything to the economy reward wise in gw2. Because the goal of the economy in gw2 is that it should be should basically stay the same, and players exist to serve the economy, not vice versa.

I think you are heavily underestimating the importance of the in-game economy in terms of the design of Guild Wars 2. The economy is an integral part of how we are rewarded for doing anything in the game. And it’s not just important to GW2, it’s important to any MMO with an in-game economy and cash shop especially. Decisions on what items are account bound/soul bound/not bound at all, whether they are RNG drops or tokens for content, and when and were we get drops are all tied to having and maintaining a functional economy. I would argue that both my and your enjoyment of the game is tied to having an economy that works. The presence of over-inflation is not, as I think you meant to say, the sole metric for good game design. I’m sure many agree.

But back to dungeons, you can’t have this argument about fractal rewards vs dungeon rewards without remembering why fractals were created. Fractals were a vehicle to offer greater challenge and obtain a higher tier gear than the vanilla dungeons/content. Better rewards in Fractals are largely gated behind Agony resistance as compared to vanilla dungeons which were not intended to be gated at all. This concept was in response to the part of the player base who was clamoring for more difficult content and that exotics were too easy to get. Not everyone mind you was asking for this but enough were for Anet to take notice. Guild Wars 2 offers different tiers of rewards for different types of content, and how they are moving forward with Fractals, I don’t believe it’s out of line given our history as a community.

nightwulf.1986:

phys.7689:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

We’ve known for 2 years that they are moving away from dungeons as content. This is just the next logical step. Dungeons are the #1 source of inflation in GW2. By toning down the rewards there they can keep a much healthier game.

inflation or lack of inflation doesnt equal a well designed game.
thats the flaw in the item design of gw2. Making the game suck, or having poor incentives does not make a better game.

this is why i say nothing good comes of tying anything to the economy reward wise in gw2. Because the goal of the economy in gw2 is that it should be should basically stay the same, and players exist to serve the economy, not vice versa.

I think you are heavily underestimating the importance of the in-game economy in terms of the design of Guild Wars 2. The economy is an integral part of how we are rewarded for doing anything in the game. And it’s not just important to GW2, it’s important to any MMO with an in-game economy and cash shop especially. Decisions on what items are account bound/soul bound/not bound at all, whether they are RNG drops or tokens for content, and when and were we get drops are all tied to having and maintaining a functional economy. I would argue that both my and your enjoyment of the game is tied to having an economy that works. The presence of over-inflation is not, as I think you meant to say, the sole metric for good game design. I’m sure many agree.

But back to dungeons, you can’t have this argument about fractal rewards vs dungeon rewards without remembering why fractals were created. Fractals were a vehicle to offer greater challenge and obtain a higher tier gear than the vanilla dungeons/content. Better rewards in Fractals are largely gated behind Agony resistance as compared to vanilla dungeons which were not intended to be gated at all. This concept was in response to the part of the player base who was clamoring for more difficult content and that exotics were too easy to get. Not everyone mind you was asking for this but enough were for Anet to take notice. Guild Wars 2 offers different tiers of rewards for different types of content, and how they are moving forward with Fractals, I don’t believe it’s out of line given our history as a community.

nope, the other MMOs usually have much higher inflation, but they also tend to feel a lot more rewarding for players.

heres the thing every game has an economy, its more important how that economy reacts with players, than that it be stable.

I know that john smith doesnt believe this, he said early on in gw2 early release, he believes stability is the key factor for an economy. After trying his method, then going and playing some wildly imbalanced economy online games, like mtgo, ffxiv, swtor, diablo. marvel heroes etc, i realized that stability is highly overated when compared to reward design. All of those games felt more rewarding, but the economy was far from stable. In those games rewards were motivators rather than demotivators.

nightwulf.1986:

I would argue that both my and your enjoyment of the game is tied to having an economy that works.

If only they didn’t value their economy higher that the players’ enjoyment of the game.

nightwulf.1986:

But back to dungeons, you can’t have this argument about fractal rewards vs dungeon rewards without remembering why fractals were created. Fractals were a vehicle to offer greater challenge and obtain a higher tier gear than the vanilla dungeons/content. Better rewards in Fractals are largely gated behind Agony resistance as compared to vanilla dungeons which were not intended to be gated at all. This concept was in response to the part of the player base who was clamoring for more difficult content and that exotics were too easy to get. Not everyone mind you was asking for this but enough were for Anet to take notice. Guild Wars 2 offers different tiers of rewards for different types of content, and how they are moving forward with Fractals, I don’t believe it’s out of line given our history as a community.

Actually, it is out of line. You’d realize it after actually reading what you’ve just wrote. Yes, they made Fractals (and then Raids) as a response to a small part of playerbase that wanted to grind for better gear and was clamoring for more difficult content.

It was meant for a small part of playerbase. And now that other content, that doesn’t require that gear grind, is getting axed. The balance between contents is getting pushed more and more towards that small but vocal group of players.

Astralporing.1957:

PopeUrban.2578:

No, they know dungeons are so broken that it would take as much effort as designing new content to revamp them.

And you assume that any new content won’t be broken in the beginning? Looking at some things they have shown us during last year, i’d say that yes, the new content will require at least the same amount of fixing, on top of designing it.
And (looking at the previous examples of content that anet left bugged because they’d rather make new content than fix older one) that new content will remain equally bugged.

Nah, it had nothing to do with it. It was simply the case of Anet wanting to buff up metrics for their new pet project because they knew it’d be a failure without it.

Your (continued) bias is showing.

dungeons have been garbage for so long who cares

phys.7689:

PopeUrban.2578:

Arenanet:
Dungeons are so full of exploitable loopholes for speedrun farming that it would take virtually the same effort as designing new fractals to fix them. So we’re making farming them non-viable but leaving the skins and old legendary recipies there so they have a purpose.

OP:
WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN’T FARM BROKEN CONTENT? I WANT TO PLAY MY WAY!

Dude. They’re moving to fractals specifically because fractals are content with more longevity and are a quicker development turnaround. They didn’t design dungeons so people could speedrun CoF1. They don’t see the value in fixing the dungeons when it’s as much work as adding whole new fractals.

On top of that, the new fractal system eliminates the ability to reroll for the exact fractal you want, so they’re comfortable with placing rewards in a system that is, at the very basic level of its design, unfarmable.

On top of that they’re moving the farm to the open world, where it should have always been in the first place. Facerolling through instances which are supposed to be challenging content wasn’t intended play like ever. It was smart players exploiting a broken system.

what are you talking about, the new fractal system lets you select any fractal you want to do.
Also fractals were just as exploitable, the main defense was the random nature of fractals.
expect COF p1 fractal farms now that they removed the randomized nature.

Also the numbering system on fractals is ungainly and will probably have to be redesigned before they start adding any new fractals.

mostly anet economy team just wanted to kill a gold faucet, decent gold earning should actually be in all content, with more earning the more skilled you are, though i dont enjoy dungeon meta, it best fits those ideas.

also dungeons was not the most effecient farm, and was also time gated

“One of the core changes we’re making is that each fractal run will only consist of one island from a static list instead of the current rotation of three random islands with a random boss fractal. This change to “1 fractal = 1 island” means that you’ll be able to run a fractal over your lunch break but still have the flexibility of running three or four fractals in the evening with your friends just like before. It also means that there will be a lot less pressure to find a group of people who can commit to 30–60 minutes in a single sitting or over 90 minutes on longer runs.

The new static schedule will allow you to practice a given fractal and learn its challenges with your friends, removing the necessity of rerolling fractals in order to find the fractal of your choice. This will also give you common ground to share similar experiences when you’re talking about a given fractal scale with other players. The lower scales will be adjusted to help make them more approachable to players to aid them in learning the mechanics of individual fractals before they scale up and become too difficult."

I read this as “You can not reroll fractals. Your fractal is statikittenil you complete it, and every 4th fractal will be a boss”

I think maybe the both of us need some clarification on exactly how the static list works. I agree it would be a bad idea to allow people to endlessly farm swamp or jellyish.

phys.7689:

nope, the other MMOs usually have much higher inflation, but they also tend to feel a lot more rewarding for players.

Other MMO’s also have very deliberate inflation with level cap increases. This is a very important aspect as GW2 claims to never intend to increase the level cap. Inflation is much more important when you aren’t manipulating the market so drastically every year or so…

I’m not a vocal minority. I’m just a single player. I’ve been playing GW2 for just over 2 years, and I’m not an economist.

I’ve tried Dungeons and while they are interesting places I can’t stand the toxic “elite” player thing going on there. Getting into a pug in a Dungeon is an exercise in self abuse.

I really like Fractals. They are fun and get harder as you go. And more important the groups that form there tend to be helpful, encouraging, and fun. (a few exceptions)

From my perspective, Fractals will break only if they loose their friendly population of players to the Elite meta farmer, speed runner crowd.

PopeUrban.2578:

Arenanet:
Dungeons are so full of exploitable loopholes for speedrun farming that it would take virtually the same effort as designing new fractals to fix them. So we’re making farming them non-viable but leaving the skins and old legendary recipies there so they have a purpose.

OP:
WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN’T FARM BROKEN CONTENT? I WANT TO PLAY MY WAY!

Dude. They’re moving to fractals specifically because fractals are content with more longevity and are a quicker development turnaround. They didn’t design dungeons so people could speedrun CoF1. They don’t see the value in fixing the dungeons when it’s as much work as adding whole new fractals.

On top of that, the new fractal system eliminates the ability to reroll for the exact fractal you want, so they’re comfortable with placing rewards in a system that is, at the very basic level of its design, unfarmable.

On top of that they’re moving the farm to the open world, where it should have always been in the first place. Facerolling through instances which are supposed to be challenging content wasn’t intended play like ever. It was smart players exploiting a broken system.

But they have already worked out how fractals will work, what what instability works with what maps, so I would not expect any new maps for fractals anytime soon.

To be fair, it would seem ANet wants us out in the world, so every map looks alive. That’s why we have mega servers. Remember what some servers where like before they where implemented? You could do a whole map and not see anyone, unless it was world boss time or dungeon entrance, but then that was no guarantee. I remember mapping sparkfly and seeing Teq raging begin his bone wall. It was.not good for the game at all.

Azure.8670:

dungeons have been garbage for so long who cares

I agree, dungeons are one of the biggest diseases of this game and I’m am glad anet is taking actions. These were the main reason the berserker meta was born, with lame exploiting tactics like stalking in one place and hitting 1 just for gold farming. It is time people start to learn how to play this game the way it is meant to be, I’m glad to see raids being introduced.

At this point, I could care less about dungeons, it absolutely sucks that Arena-net have just abandoned them at this point, seems any promises they had of improving them or adding more of them in the future are now dead, but dungeons are dead and non-content at this point, so I can’t say I care too much, I’ll be glad to see all of the “elites” that run dungeons like a kittening slave camp where unless you are playing zerker meta you are instantly kicked whine and cry about how players can avoid them now

I’ve ran a guild for about 3 years we are pretty large do a lot of dungeons and fracts. I bought HOT but been underwhelmed by the beta so far. Guild Halls OK nice. Raids with 10 people good. However raids are once a week reward thing. yeah we speed ran dungeons too. You don’t speed run over night takes right gear and teaching people. We speed run Fracts too. I always liked dungeons and fracts. WvW has always left me cold run around with big zergs pick on smaller ones takes no talent. try soloing a lot of Arah. that isn’t quick takes talent. I have soloed some fracts also takes some talent. So you revamping WvW but you just dont care about teh dungeon runners huh? The expansion was way to slow lets hope they do another in a year or so. But, if they leave out teh dungeons doubt ill buy the next one. The sylvari were probably the least interesting race of the lot Asura would have been better or Charr. I’m hoping after it comes out i like it better than what i have seen. The beta some of the new skills are fun but i spent more time in the old maps than the new ones. Open world boss huntting gave up a long time ago big zergs no skill. I loved the temple runs none of those in expansion either. Seems like Arenanet should have asked people who play teh game instead of there designers.You build a product for your clients not your designers

Astralporing.1957:

nightwulf.1986:

I would argue that both my and your enjoyment of the game is tied to having an economy that works.

If only they didn’t value their economy higher that the players’ enjoyment of the game.

nightwulf.1986:

But back to dungeons, you can’t have this argument about fractal rewards vs dungeon rewards without remembering why fractals were created. Fractals were a vehicle to offer greater challenge and obtain a higher tier gear than the vanilla dungeons/content. Better rewards in Fractals are largely gated behind Agony resistance as compared to vanilla dungeons which were not intended to be gated at all. This concept was in response to the part of the player base who was clamoring for more difficult content and that exotics were too easy to get. Not everyone mind you was asking for this but enough were for Anet to take notice. Guild Wars 2 offers different tiers of rewards for different types of content, and how they are moving forward with Fractals, I don’t believe it’s out of line given our history as a community.

Actually, it is out of line. You’d realize it after actually reading what you’ve just wrote. Yes, they made Fractals (and then Raids) as a response to a small part of playerbase that wanted to grind for better gear and was clamoring for more difficult content.

It was meant for a small part of playerbase. And now that other content, that doesn’t require that gear grind, is getting axed. The balance between contents is getting pushed more and more towards that small but vocal group of players.

Ok. I read the article the OP was clearly referring to and it gives a bit more context to the conversation. I think questions of how rewarding content is as a matter of perception is extremely important. I’m sure the devs do too. There are some interesting studies on economies and player perception out there for a good read. However, what I read from the recent blog post is that vanilla dungeons were deemed problematic in terms of design. Looking at their history, that should be obvious. The devs were being intentionally vague as to how exactly they were problematic. I won’t pretend to know their reasons but the common perception among players was that vanilla dungeons were on the way out for a while and this confirms that. It’s pretty much legacy content officially. The devs have openly said the dungeons weren’t designed well and it’s entirely possible they feel that fractals/raids are in a much better position to reward players appropriately than dungeons. That’s up for debate of course but that’s what I’m reading from the recent dev post. I think we’ll get a better idea of just what position the dungeons are in when HOT launches.

As for fractals being the desire of a small group of players, I didn’t say that group was small. I don’t think any of us knows just how big that demand was, but all I can say is it happened. We lost some players to it and retained others because of it. Only Anet knows how much damage was done and what was gained.

This is a terrible change and a terrible idea, based off the information they’ve offered us right now. Completely cutting off support for dungeons is as smart as cutting off your own leg after stubbing your toe on a wall.

The problem with dungeons is, and always shall be time investment vs reward. The reward for running shorter dungeons has always been greater than running longer, more challenging dungeons. And dungeons have always been a subpar way of farming, when you have SW and other more recent events popping up. Who even runs dungeons anymore? One of the reasons I lack all the armor sets that I want is because it’s a ludicrous grind to get the armor, and no one is ever willing to run it. If this change goes through, they may as well make dungeons soloable content, or just remove them entirely and allow us to earn all of the rewards through other means.

thewaterguy.4796:

At this point, I could care less about dungeons, it absolutely sucks that Arena-net have just abandoned them at this point, seems any promises they had of improving them or adding more of them in the future are now dead, but dungeons are dead and non-content at this point, so I can’t say I care too much, I’ll be glad to see all of the “elites” that run dungeons like a kittening slave camp where unless you are playing zerker meta you are instantly kicked whine and cry about how players can avoid them now

I hate to tell you this, but those mean old zerkers are just going to switch to whatever the raid meta is and set up camp there, and the raid meta will make the dungeon meta look downright welcoming by comparison.