Guild Wars 2

Over the past year, there have additions to SPvP and WvW, but nothing for dungeons. A-net revamped the SPvP rewards system, added a new SPvP map and is getting ready to add another, and added ways to customize your character in WvW with various buffs and a system of horizontal progression. But nothing has been done to improve or add to the current dungeons.

I like that SPvP and WvW have gotten a lot of attention, they are fun ways to enjoy the game, but by making them the sole focus of new content you are kind of forcing people into SPvP and WvW to enjoy the game. Dungeons have been reduced to an easy way to make a couple gold, and that’s it. Fractals are worse in a way because they are slightly harder and take more time, but with rewards that aren’t much better than normal dungeons.

I would like to not only see new, challenging, and enjoyable dungeons in HoT, but also a complete revamp of the dungeon reward system. Similar to the changes that were made to the SPvP rewards system.

I rather they focus on open world content. You know like the game originally promised.

uhohhotdog.3598:

I rather they focus on open world content. You know like the game originally promised.

They can do both.

OP im with you, i loved the dungeons in GW1 and i love the dungeons in GW2.

As much as I enjoy this game, I get absolutely zero enjoyment out of dungeons. I honestly miss the trinity design and it just feels like stack might and win is all that happens. I want to love dungeons, I loved them in WoW for years (not anymore since they have been garbage since MoP), but GW2 dungeons and fractals just don’t do anything for me.

Ralanost.8913:

As much as I enjoy this game, I get absolutely zero enjoyment out of dungeons. I honestly miss the trinity design and it just feels like stack might and win is all that happens. I want to love dungeons, I loved them in WoW for years (not anymore since they have been garbage since MoP), but GW2 dungeons and fractals just don’t do anything for me.

This. Got my skins and title long ago and never went back. Not sure how popular/enjoyed the dungeon meta (zerk) is for the community just based on these forums or my personal experience, but I don’t care for it no matter how challenging the dungeon is/was.

Incoming anti content parade. :P

Dungeons:
Pull your own weight

Open world content:
Be a dead weight who won’t even use a wp when he’s dead only to scale up an event

Lack talent or skills than complain about dungeons and rave how good open world is

No co ordination required just lay on the ground dead and collect ur loots after u rez

ANet should just merge dungeons with Fractals and then up the reward to 10g. Then there can be a tab to join fractal instance from anywhere.

People have been asking for some dungeon loving for… well 3 years almost now.

runeblade.7514:

ANet should just merge dungeons with Fractals and then up the reward to 10g. Then there can be a tab to join fractal instance from anywhere.

Here I see a problem of convenience vs lore / story. I think fractals are probably going to be the place we see new small group content (beyond LS). But I do kinda feel that there’s still a place for dungeons.

CureForLiving.5360:

People have been asking for some dungeon loving for… well 3 years almost now.

runeblade.7514:

ANet should just merge dungeons with Fractals and then up the reward to 10g. Then there can be a tab to join fractal instance from anywhere.

Here I see a problem of convenience vs lore / story. I think fractals are probably going to be the place we see new small group content (beyond LS). But I do kinda feel that there’s still a place for dungeons.

After 1000 runs, no one cares about the lore.

If ANet wants to keep lore, then ANet can make explorable path be a side story instance that can be done alone or with 5 people. Those would give a one time reward like a story mode path. This way, ANet doesn’t need to completely trash explorable path.

Then ANet put the short and harder path and more fun boss fights in Fractals.

It sounds like one of the big issues people who don’t want more dungeons is because the prevalence of the max efficiency speedclearing zerk dungeon meta stuff. You know what would help fix that? Brand spanking new dungeons that everyone has to learn together. Many of those issues COME from the fact we’ve done the current dungeons to death.

Personally, I really like smaller group content that’s meant for a single party to complete together. It’s rare to get that happening in the open world, and sometimes grouping up for dungeon instances is either a nice way to meet people ingame or a cool thing to do with friends or guildies where you can take things at your own pace. A lot of “Open World Content” ends up as ganging up in a big blob against a world boss on a 15 minute timer which isn’t as interesting to me.

“Dungeons” or not, I would like more instanced small group content LIKE dungeons.

Living Story instances COULD be done in a way to satisfy that, but Ls2 does a pretty poor job on it, because of the story focus. Re-playing those instances are a major slog because of unskippable cutsceenes, long breaks in the action, and a lack of repeat rewards. The inability to have new party members join you mid-instance is occasionally problematic as well.

If we don’t get new dungeons, then new instances that operate similarly to LS instances, but with a better focus on replayability and gameplay, and a rewards system and some of the conveniences of dungeons (SKIPPABLE CUTSCEENES) might work well in HoT.

Open World is cool for exploration and pewpew particle effects, I like that for that matter. Difficulty, on the other side, belongs mostly to a well-planned, medium-sized party content like dungeons.

I wonder if they’ll ever give an utility to those recipes we drop from dungeons, dare I say they are rarer than precursors!

Open world content and dungeons are two different game modes which have two different ways two play them. They are not the same subject, and you can enjoy both. Really, the topic of open world content is out of place here, because A-net can add to both. We already know they are adding more open world content, and they already have in the past with Southsun, Dry-top, the various living world events, and Silverwastes. All the while dungeons have been completely neglected.

Yes, the zerker meta can be boring, and that is largely what I am talking about. They could make dungeons that are fun and challenging with mechanics that may not require you to run something other than the zerker meta, but reward you in some way for having members of your party who are running more tankier or healer type builds. Also, the dungeon rewards system needs to be better. As it stands, I can get much better rewards from both SPvP and open world content in the Silverwastes.

I don’t understand how the prefix of your gear changes whether an encounter is boring or not. Do you have some add-on that makes the prefix you’re wearing flash on your screen to remind you what it is? I’m not sure the connection between gear stats and your boredom.

The second point, about rewarding tanky gear, there is already a reward for wearing it: you don’t have to dodge as well/at all. That’s a pretty generous reward for a game based around action combat. Oh you want to have god mode survivability AND more utility? That’s strange. The game system encourages you to take off your training wheels as you learn the combat system better, not sure what message it would send to encourage you to keep them on. Perhaps the message would be, "stay bad forever!"

NikeEU.7690:

I don’t understand how the prefix of your gear changes whether an encounter is boring or not. Do you have some add-on that makes the prefix you’re wearing flash on your screen to remind you what it is? I’m not sure the connection between gear stats and your boredom.

The second point, about rewarding tanky gear, there is already a reward for wearing it: you don’t have to dodge as well/at all. That’s a pretty generous reward for a game based around action combat. Oh you want to have god mode survivability AND more utility? That’s strange. The game system encourages you to take off your training wheels as you learn the combat system better, not sure what message it would send to encourage you to keep them on. Perhaps the message would be, “stay bad forever!”

Im not sure how you got that out of what I said.

I also never meant to imply that I personally have a problem with the zerker meta. I run full zerker on every one of my characters. I was offering a suggestion concerning it since it is a major point of concern for a lot of players. When I suggested giving different rewards for running different builds, I was thinking something about the dungeon rewards system, not changing how combat works. Maybe give different rewards for no one going into down state during a fight, or killing a boss in a shorter amount of time.

Where did all this hostility come from in the forums recently? Just because you disagree with a player’s suggestions, doesn’t mean they are a bad player, or there is a need to throw around personal insults.

I wasn’t hostile and I didn’t insult you personally. I’m not sure how you got that out of what I said.

Gern.2978:

but reward you in some way for having members of your party who are running more tankier or healer type builds.

U wot m8?

Gern.2978:

Maybe give different rewards for no one going into down state during a fight, or killing a boss in a shorter amount of time.

This sounds a lot better.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Gern.2978:

but reward you in some way for having members of your party who are running more tankier or healer type builds.

U wot m8?

Gern.2978:

Maybe give different rewards for no one going into down state during a fight, or killing a boss in a shorter amount of time.

This sounds a lot better.

Criteria-based rewards is a really awesome idea seen in many MMOs. To an extent, it just comes to my mind the PvP Leaderboards, you’re ranked differently depending on some variables in place (how “well” you fight, your own ranking, your team’s ranking, etc). The “how well” is something PvE should borrow from PvP. They could make temporary statistics for that dungeon run to determine more stuff, like enhancing one’s odds at getting more T6, or gaining a cool buff (10min. -5% condi duration?) for the next difficult boss.

PvE definitely should be more complex, or have more variables to play a role in overall gaming experience.

Frankly, Dungeons need a rework to discourage zerker-meta speed running. How about add some incentive for supportive gameplay and high-toughness, lower health enemies to incentivize some build/gear diversity in the party

NikeEU.7690:

I wasn’t hostile and I didn’t insult you personally. I’m not sure how you got that out of what I said.

Well…

NikeEU.7690:

The game system encourages you to take off your training wheels as you learn the combat system better, not sure what message it would send to encourage you to keep them on. Perhaps the message would be, “stay bad forever!”

You have to admit, that comes off as a tad hostile. Or at least a bit elitist. Telling someone they’re a “Bad Player” for “keeping their training wheels on” may not be outright hostile, but you can see how people might take it that way, right?

Anyway, the “Zerk meta” being bad for dungeons isn’t so much about the stat set, it’s that it’s also associated with the stacking tactic, which is a really boring way to fight things. If it’s the go-to strategy for most of the dungeon, it’s really repetitive, and doesn’t feel like the way much of the game was designed to play like. It’s not directly a zerk thing since you could stack defensive characters if you wanted, but it’s mostly optimal with zerk melee heavies, hence the association. I think dungeons might be more interesting, and require more skill, if more encounters were designed to punish stacking and encourage more creative battle tactics. To be fair, that’s an open world issue too, sometimes.

Gern.2978:

Maybe give different rewards for no one going into down state during a fight, or killing a boss in a shorter amount of time.

Please no! That would be very toxic to the PUG community. If one person got downed and the rest of the group was “punished” for it, that would result in a lot of arguments and blaming when those rewards are failed. If the rewards are more like the living story achievements where YOU get an extra individual prize for not getting downed, that would possibly work, though. Or if it goes the other way, where the whole group’s rewarded if some people do really well at something, like say someone interrupts a bosses special attack, that could also be interesting, but “nobody makes a mistake” rewards would go south quickly.

The basic idea is pretty good, you’d just need to be careful about the objectives.

MattyP.6954:

Frankly, Dungeons need a rework to discourage zerker-meta speed running. How about add some incentive for supportive gameplay and high-toughness, lower health enemies to incentivize some build/gear diversity in the party

…so you’re saying the game needs 3 Zerker 2 Sinister meta speed-running?

timmyf.1490:

MattyP.6954:

Frankly, Dungeons need a rework to discourage zerker-meta speed running. How about add some incentive for supportive gameplay and high-toughness, lower health enemies to incentivize some build/gear diversity in the party

…so you’re saying the game needs 3 Zerker 2 Sinister meta speed-running?

Selective reading of my comment is selective. O.o

Arioso.8519:

You have to admit, that comes off as a tad hostile. Or at least a bit elitist. Telling someone they’re a “Bad Player” for “keeping their training wheels on” may not be outright hostile, but you can see how people might take it that way, right?

Is this some kind of new correctness to not tell anyone about their performance? Especially that after playing for some time you should remove those training wheels.

MattyP.6954:

timmyf.1490:

MattyP.6954:

Frankly, Dungeons need a rework to discourage zerker-meta speed running. How about add some incentive for supportive gameplay and high-toughness, lower health enemies to incentivize some build/gear diversity in the party

…so you’re saying the game needs 3 Zerker 2 Sinister meta speed-running?

Selective reading of my comment is selective. O.o

Meta speedrunning is meta speedrunning even if you change the meta.

And anyway, there’s tons of support in the current meta, there’s just not a lot of gear diversity.

MattyP.6954:

Selective reading of my comment is selective. O.o

I’m not sure how it is selective. Berserker’s gear works best against normal enemies and Sinister works best against heavy armoured enemies. Support is already there and isn’t dependant on your gear.

rotten.9753:

Arioso.8519:

You have to admit, that comes off as a tad hostile. Or at least a bit elitist. Telling someone they’re a “Bad Player” for “keeping their training wheels on” may not be outright hostile, but you can see how people might take it that way, right?

Is this some kind of new correctness to not tell anyone about their performance? Especially that after playing for some time you should remove those training wheels.

In context (that is important, you know), calling someone out for not “removing training wheels” by running a build with Toughness (or Survivability in general) is kind of a crappy thing to do. It comes down to a group of players insisting that every player play like they play and bow to the Zerker dungeon Meta, and the comment that they “need to learn the combat system” is hilarious given that the dungeon strategy du jour involves exploiting level design to stand in a corner and dps race the mobs. That is even less active and requires less skill than a WoW 5-man.

uhohhotdog.3598:

I rather they focus on open world content. You know like the game originally promised.

Oh my, why?
Why on earth would you want more of that?
There is open world overload.
I can’t handle any more.

Please, give us actual content. I’m begging.
Add more dungeons.
Revamp the rewards.
Give us an end game.
Please.

MattyP.6954:

In context (that is important, you know), calling someone out for not “removing training wheels” by running a build with Toughness (or Survivability in general) is kind of a crappy thing to do. It comes down to a group of players insisting that every player play like they play and bow to the Zerker dungeon Meta, and the comment that they “need to learn the combat system” is hilarious given that the dungeon strategy du jour involves exploiting level design to stand in a corner and dps race the mobs. That is even less active and requires less skill than a WoW 5-man.

You must be really heavy to carry if that’s what you do.

I have a few suggestions for dungeons that would promote more diverse builds than the current zerker meta.
1. A boss that is immune to direct damage but take twice the condi damage. (perhaps in combination with a boss that is immune to condis).
2. Some rooms applying so many conditions and strips so many boons that a designated support class is needed to keep the party alive. (This’d kill necros though…)
3. A boss that has an AoE hard hitting move (unavoidable) that would down any player without Vitality or Toughness in 1 move.
4. A boss that has hard hitting moves for immobile players? (much like some vine attacks in SW, but more potent)
5. A boss that drains Endurance, forcing players to take a hit from time to time.
6. A boss that takes damage from healing, a zombie of some kind.

There is so much potential that could end the Zerker meta, so many ways dungeons could become more fun and rewarding, but instead we’re mostly given champions with a bit more HP.
I could describe a really cool dungeon using various elements, but that’d probably fall on deaf ears so I’ll post these few ideas for now

Roseblood.6793:

1. A boss that is immune to direct damage but take twice the condi damage. (perhaps in combination with a boss that is immune to condis).

That what we will end up with i think.

Roseblood.6793:

2. Some rooms applying so many conditions and strips so many boons that a designated support class is needed to keep the party alive. (This’d kill necros though…)

I am pretty sure that current guardian meta build can do that.

Roseblood.6793:

3. A boss that has an AoE hard hitting move (unavoidable) that would down any player without Vitality or Toughness in 1 move.

Forced tanking/healing check in mmo with no trinity? And it kinda ignores the basics of gw2 combat system.

Roseblood.6793:

4. A boss that has hard hitting moves for immobile players? (much like some vine attacks in SW, but more potent)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Imbued_Shaman this guy has this sort of attacks.
By the way this little vines that spawn under you in sw and deal damage can be avoided by standing in melee range of a thrasher that spawns them.

Roseblood.6793:

5. A boss that drains Endurance, forcing players to take a hit from time to time.

Could be interesting. Would force guardians to learn how to use aegis.

Roseblood.6793:

6. A boss that takes damage from healing, a zombie of some kind.

No comments lol.

Here we go again boiz´n´grils. Oh well…

Roseblood.6793:

1. A boss that is immune to direct damage but take twice the condi damage. (perhaps in combination with a boss that is immune to condis).

Bad idea, it would not only hurt/invalidate beserker´s gear but any stat combination not having condi damage or vice versa.
Mobs with high toughness and low health like husks? Yes please. Total immunity against either direkt damage or condis? Nope.

Roseblood.6793:

2. Some rooms applying so many conditions and strips so many boons that a designated support class is needed to keep the party alive. (This’d kill necros though…)

There is no designated support class in this game, pls get over it already
Besides that, almost all of the current “zerker meta” builds are supportive builds, both offensive as well as defensive.

Roseblood.6793:

3. A boss that has an AoE hard hitting move (unavoidable) that would down any player without Vitality or Toughness in 1 move.

Content that forces even the very best players to take extra Vita and/or Toughness is bad. Making content even more punishing than it already is in certain instances can´t be the solution.
My god, I can almost hear the tortured screams and the pitiful woes of all average-joe players, down through the ages, right into my livingroom (too much coffee, sry \OuO/)

Roseblood.6793:

4. A boss that has hard hitting moves for immobile players? (much like some vine attacks in SW, but more potent)

I´d like more mordrem-like mobs actually as something like the thresher´s tentacle attack punishes lazy play. I still miss the old retal-wolves. They were nasty, but in a good way =,(

Roseblood.6793:

5. A boss that drains Endurance, forcing players to take a hit from time to time.

Similar issue as with your “unavoidable attacks” suggestions. Dedicated players will just bring what is necessary (e.g. take double energy sigils, bring more vigor, etc.) and more casual players would probably hate and avoid it.

Roseblood.6793:

6. A boss that takes damage from healing, a zombie of some kind.

Eeerr… no… just no. I doubt something like that can work at all in the first place, but how would that be promoting “build diversity”?
Every class has access to heals and healing power scales so poorly that it wouldn´t even be worth it for most people to invest into extra healing gear just for one encounter. It´s much easier to just swap out some traits, weapons and/or utility skills, which is exactly what people are doing right now anyways if it gives them a considerable advantage in certain situations.

Roseblood.6793:

There is so much potential that could end the Zerker meta, so many ways dungeons could become more fun and rewarding, but instead we’re mostly given champions with a bit more HP.
I could describe a really cool dungeon using various elements, but that’d probably fall on deaf ears so I’ll post these few ideas for now

Why are you and so many others under the impression that the “zerker meta” is what makes dungeons an unpleasant experience for you these days?

So, for the umpteenth time:

1. Even if you personally are not happy with the current meta, there are enough people that DO like it the way it is now.
2. “Nerf it because I don´t like it” is not a reasonable argument.
3. Fun is a very subjective thing. I for example LOVE IT when mobs get obliterated by a hail of AoEs and I feel really pleased and rewarded if I manage to execute one of the more difficult skips/trash runs flawlessly.
4. If you don´t like something in this game, that´s ok! Just don´t do it then =) You are not forced to use meta builds or skip or LoS mobs to successfully complete any dungeon you wish to do.
5. The current dungeon/fractal content is old and stale for a lot of people by now because they´ve completed them over and over and over again. Maybe that´s the problem and not “the meta”?
6. Some of the old encounter design is outright bad and very one-dimensional. I think nobody is trying to deny that and most people that still do dungeons on a regular basis wish it was different. But adding things like hard dps-checks, more time-gating or artificially forcing “build diversity” by excluding certain stat combination by design wont help to improve the situation at all I think.

Did I forget something important? I´m tired…

In relation to WvW and sPvP, I believe that dungeons are time-intensive to create and result in little (comparative) time played in them. For this reason, I believe it would be wise to concentrate on improving the other end-game (I said it) modes.

-for the record, I identify myself primarily as a WvW player.

Roseblood.6793:

I have a few suggestions for dungeons that would promote more diverse builds than the current zerker meta.
1. A boss that is immune to direct damage but take twice the condi damage. (perhaps in combination with a boss that is immune to condis).

It would probably be better to suggest bosses that have phases where they could become immune to either, for a limited time. One of the strengths of conditions, is their long duration, so they can keep ticking, even if the boss is out of range, or invulnerable. Bosses could also demand that players time their burst damage, to take advantage of the moment when they are vulnerable again.

This way there’s a moment when you want condition damage, and a moment when you want DPS, and both have a role in the same battle. Lastly, you’d want to find a role for support and control.

Roseblood.6793:

l2. Some rooms applying so many conditions and strips so many boons that a designated support class is needed to keep the party alive. (This’d kill necros though…)

Rooms that affect game mechanics are interesting. Not sure if I would want to go the required support class route though. I prefer options.

Roseblood.6793:

I3. A boss that has an AoE hard hitting move (unavoidable) that would down any player without Vitality or Toughness in 1 move.

That seems a bit binary. I think it would be better to scale up the effectiveness of vitality and toughness. Currently there is not much of a difference between someone fighting a boss in zerker gear, and someone fighting a boss in toughness gear, apart from the raw numbers they put out. They are just about as squishy. So that seems to be a problem that deserves being addressed. The goal should not be to completely eliminate squishy high damage builds, but to open up the options.

Roseblood.6793:

I4. A boss that has hard hitting moves for immobile players? (much like some vine attacks in SW, but more potent)

Why do you think this would be a good idea?

Roseblood.6793:

I5. A boss that drains Endurance, forcing players to take a hit from time to time.

This seems to pidgeonhole players once again into speccing toughness, while also hitting classes with the least amount of endurance the hardest.

Roseblood.6793:

I6. A boss that takes damage from healing, a zombie of some kind.

Could be fun, but kind of gimmicky.

Roseblood.6793:

IThere is so much potential that could end the Zerker meta, so many ways dungeons could become more fun and rewarding, but instead we’re mostly given champions with a bit more HP.

The goal should not be to end zerker builds, but to open up the meta to other builds.

Arioso.8519:

NikeEU.7690:

I wasn’t hostile and I didn’t insult you personally. I’m not sure how you got that out of what I said.

Well…

NikeEU.7690:

The game system encourages you to take off your training wheels as you learn the combat system better, not sure what message it would send to encourage you to keep them on. Perhaps the message would be, “stay bad forever!”

You have to admit, that comes off as a tad hostile. Or at least a bit elitist. Telling someone they’re a “Bad Player” for “keeping their training wheels on” may not be outright hostile, but you can see how people might take it that way, right?

I didn’t call him a bad player. Read more carefully. The point I was making is, when the game system encourages you to not take off your EZ mode training wheels the game system is telling you to never improve. I want the game system to encourage people to develop their combat skills the more they play.

The goal should not be to end zerker builds, but to open up the meta to other builds.

“zerker” isn’t a build, it’s a gear prefix denoting a specific stat combination. All of the so-called zerker builds you see on metabattle can and are run with any prefix you want to run them with. For a game designer I’m surprised this aspect of the game’s design eluded you.

NikeEU.7690:

“zerker” isn’t a build, it’s a gear prefix denoting a specific stat combination. All of the so-called zerker builds you see on metabattle can and are run with any prefix you want to run them with. For a game designer I’m surprised this aspect of the game’s design eluded you.

Are you done with your ad hominems yet? Because I still have a pedicure today.

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy whereby one criticize san idea by attacking the person presenting it in order to discredit the idea. My correction of your (probably) willful misinformation doesn’t fit that description.

NikeEU.7690:

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy whereby one criticize san idea by attacking the person presenting it in order to discredit the idea. My correction of your (probably) willful misinformation doesn’t fit that description.

There is no wilful misinformation on my part.

You are attacking me as a person, not addressing the argument. In fact, you go out of your way to derail the discussion into personal attacks, based on false presumptions about me.

spoj.9672:

Incoming anti content parade. :P

Its the same like.. 2-4 people in every thread asking for content that come in and derail it. Can almost call them out by name at this point if I didnt feel it came close to violating TOS.

Girl that comes in insulting someones use of a specific word without owning a dictionary herself, then making not so vague additions to let us know shes a she.

Then that guy that blindly insists on statistics to prove instanced content isnt financially viable without having said numbers. Just wants to let us know we should all give up hope because he super duper believes in A.net.

Then the remainder are likely a bunch of people who claim everything they run is ‘full zerker’ without truly knowing why but ‘hate it’ because for some reason even though FGS was nerfed forever ago and LOS is a thing that you dont ‘fix away’, they’re all masters of the game because they stack in a bloody corner for everything!

lol..

I’m pretty sure we already have a troll in a dungeon somewhere, so you can drop that Just PM each other.

Back on topic:
I know some of my recommendations aren’t THE solution, but some of them would promote the use of something other than zerker gear. I would love to see the other gears used as much in the game as the rest. These were just some examples that’d promote this (also note that I didn’t mean to give all bosses these abilities, but I’d really like to see a dungeon where zerker gear just isn’t as viable as anywhere else )

Roseblood.6793:

I know some of my recommendations aren’t THE solution, but some of them would promote the use of something other than zerker gear. I would love to see the other gears used as much in the game as the rest.

“A” suggestion, is always better than “no” suggestion. I’m simply discussing your ideas because I want to expand on them. Which I think is better for discussion than all the nay sayers.

One of the things I really wonder about is how zerkers are any different from people who pack heavy defense. I know they have a statistical difference. But from a mechanical point of view, what is the advantage of having more defense against damage while dealing little of it yourself, when you could also be taking no damage while dealing a lot of damage? Mechanically, it doesn’t seem like there is a trade off here. One is objectively better than the other.

rotten.9753:

MattyP.6954:

In context (that is important, you know), calling someone out for not “removing training wheels” by running a build with Toughness (or Survivability in general) is kind of a crappy thing to do. It comes down to a group of players insisting that every player play like they play and bow to the Zerker dungeon Meta, and the comment that they “need to learn the combat system” is hilarious given that the dungeon strategy du jour involves exploiting level design to stand in a corner and dps race the mobs. That is even less active and requires less skill than a WoW 5-man.

You must be really heavy to carry if that’s what you do.

Carrying would imply a lack of skill where it’s required. No skill is required to stack in the corner and dps race the mobs. It’s just a loot farm and contains no rewarding gameplay.

MattyP.6954:

rotten.9753:

MattyP.6954:

In context (that is important, you know), calling someone out for not “removing training wheels” by running a build with Toughness (or Survivability in general) is kind of a crappy thing to do. It comes down to a group of players insisting that every player play like they play and bow to the Zerker dungeon Meta, and the comment that they “need to learn the combat system” is hilarious given that the dungeon strategy du jour involves exploiting level design to stand in a corner and dps race the mobs. That is even less active and requires less skill than a WoW 5-man.

You must be really heavy to carry if that’s what you do.

Carrying would imply a lack of skill where it’s required. No skill is required to stack in the corner and dps race the mobs. It’s just a loot farm and contains no rewarding gameplay.

Have you tried doing not AC?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

MattyP.6954:

rotten.9753:

MattyP.6954:

In context (that is important, you know), calling someone out for not “removing training wheels” by running a build with Toughness (or Survivability in general) is kind of a crappy thing to do. It comes down to a group of players insisting that every player play like they play and bow to the Zerker dungeon Meta, and the comment that they “need to learn the combat system” is hilarious given that the dungeon strategy du jour involves exploiting level design to stand in a corner and dps race the mobs. That is even less active and requires less skill than a WoW 5-man.

You must be really heavy to carry if that’s what you do.

Carrying would imply a lack of skill where it’s required. No skill is required to stack in the corner and dps race the mobs. It’s just a loot farm and contains no rewarding gameplay.

Have you tried doing not AC?

I lol’d.

Serious offer here: for people who complain dungeons have no mechanics and it’s all stack in the corner cheese, I’d be delighted to let you run with my guild and take you through a few dungeon paths.

• Bring whatever gear and build you like
• You can pick the dungeon and path
• If you’re new to it, you’re welcome to watch the cutscenes
• If you think I’m an elitist jerk, watch me and my friends play Living Story while “voice acting” all the lines. See, we love dungeons, and we love story and lore too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBGzAXTSCiI

Just ping me in-game or something. My name’s over there. I’m on NA.

I get the feeling the real problem here is that we have two groups that have a lot of opinions about each other but very little in-game interaction. I’d be happy to help change that if you’d be willing.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There is no wilful misinformation on my part.

You used the term “zerker build” which you are probably aware is a term that is meaningless at best, misleading at worst. So which is it?

You are attacking me as a person, not addressing the argument. In fact, you go out of your way to derail the discussion into personal attacks, based on false presumptions about me.

So saying that you’re a game developer is a personal attack? A personal attack usually involves some kind of… I dunno… put down or attack. All I said was that since you say you’re a game developer it was surprising to me that you didn’t understand the term “zerker build” was a red herring. If a nuclear engineer didn’t understand what an electron was I would also express my surprise and just as well it wouldn’t be a personal attack. A personal attack in that example and yours would have been if I followed it up with another sentence that had some kind of pejorative insult.

Arioso.8519:

“Dungeons” or not, I would like more instanced small group content LIKE dungeons.

The entirety of the game should have been instanced like GW1. The “persistent world” concept promotes the zerging and exacerbates the terrible framerate issues that are getting worse with each content update.

I really don’t think they should change how combat in dungeons works like making bosses imune to direct damage, or a boss that forces you to run a tanky build. Those ideas don’t create an atmosphere promoting buidl diversity at all, they just change the meta from zerker to Dire.

In addition to new and entertaining dungeons, the idea that I had, and have kinda failed to articulate well, is that they still allow you to play how you want, but they give bonus loot for completing a boss fight in deferent ways. Such as, you get bonus loot (like obsidian shards or mystic clovers or some such) for no one in your party going below a certain HP level. You could also get that same bonus loot for killing the boss in a very short amount of time. You get the same bonus loot, but you only get it for completing one of these bonus challenges, whichever you complete first.

These two bonus challenges are just two ideas that come to mind first, they could have different ones. But basically I am saying they could structure these challenges in a way that you could complete them using whatever build you want, you can still avoid taking damage as a zerker build if you are skilled enough, but this way you get more out of a dungeon and have different ways of doing it if you want.

Gern.2978:

In addition to new and entertaining dungeons, the idea that I had, and have kinda failed to articulate well, is that they still allow you to play how you want, but they give bonus loot for completing a boss fight in deferent ways. Such as, you get bonus loot (like obsidian shards or mystic clovers or some such) for no one in your party going below a certain HP level. You could also get that same bonus loot for killing the boss in a very short amount of time. You get the same bonus loot, but you only get it for completing one of these bonus challenges, whichever you complete first.

I think you articulated it just fine and it was a fantastic idea.

Sadly, we can’t have a nice discussion about dungeons without a few people showing up, complaining about the balance of conditions and direct damage, and talking about how much better dungeons (which they don’t run anyway) would be if they just required X, where X is a thing that the interloper wants to run in dungeons.

Gern.2978:

I really don’t think they should change how combat in dungeons works like making bosses imune to direct damage, or a boss that forces you to run a tanky build. Those ideas don’t create an atmosphere promoting buidl diversity at all, they just change the meta from zerker to Dire.

In addition to new and entertaining dungeons, the idea that I had, and have kinda failed to articulate well, is that they still allow you to play how you want, but they give bonus loot for completing a boss fight in deferent ways. Such as, you get bonus loot (like obsidian shards or mystic clovers or some such) for no one in your party going below a certain HP level. You could also get that same bonus loot for killing the boss in a very short amount of time. You get the same bonus loot, but you only get it for completing one of these bonus challenges, whichever you complete first.

These two bonus challenges are just two ideas that come to mind first, they could have different ones. But basically I am saying they could structure these challenges in a way that you could complete them using whatever build you want, you can still avoid taking damage as a zerker build if you are skilled enough, but this way you get more out of a dungeon and have different ways of doing it if you want.

Yup, Gambits/challenge mode options, pretty sure most players agree they’d like to see this.

I’m not in support of forced diversity of gear at all, but I am very much up for challenges that are tough enough that I may want to grab some training wheels or a safety net.