Elite Specialization cost too high
When gw2 launched and for the 1st year and a half of its existence, you could do anything you wanted in pve and progress your character. There weren’t any designated content that was mandatory. Yes, there were skill points but you could ignore those as you were rewarded skill points every time you leveled.
With hero/mastery points you are forced to do that content to progress your character.
Here is the problem with that logic; Anet didn’t link character progression to play how you want ideology or any other accomplishment in the game; that’s a fabrication of your own making. I know it makes proving your points super easy when you invent these relationships, but we were never given any indication from Anet that was their intent. They never said “you can play how you want for all character progression things”. There was never anything that specific.
While it is true what you say, it still doesn’t mean that Anet did anything to violate what they determined to be the context for play how you want ideology. You’re simply painting too broadly with your belief to what that statement should be related to and it’s meaning.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I am not saying that Anet violated anything. I am saying they had it right at launch. I have 18 characters and plan to make more. It really gets old going to designated points over and over. It really is silly too. I could be in the heart of Maguuma doing event chains day after day after day and never progress. In fact, my character could be in the jungle for years and never progress unless he did these specific tasks. Years in the jungle and learned nothing…… 3 seconds of communing and bam wow I know things now!!!
I am not saying that Anet violated anything. I am saying they had it right at launch. I have 18 characters and plan to make more. It really gets old going to designated points over and over. It really is silly too. I could be in the heart of Maguuma doing event chains day after day after day and never progress. In fact, my character could be in the jungle for years and never progress unless he did these specific tasks. Years in the jungle and learned nothing…… 3 seconds of communing and bam wow I know things now!!!
So what you’re saying is you rolled 18 characters and you don’t like doing the same thing over and over?
I am honestly confused.
Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
The only thing I have to do over and over are the hero points……. Just because I rolled 18 characters doesn’t mean I leveled each one of them the same way…. Just the stupid hero points.
Man guys, I dont know I think the cost is way to high for skills in this rpg im playing right now, is it to much to ask to max my character in 2 hours? I only paid 60 bucks for it plus dlc, geesh its not like ill get bored with it having all my skills nearly instant in an rpg then actually progressing towards it with great pacing through the content itself.
Like seriously rpgs are suppose to only last an hour or two dont you know this?
Some people are interested in playing the new specs, but not in earning them. Others prefer to earn them. Some people can make RPG’s last a long time without the game providing time sinks. Others can’t.
I am not saying that Anet violated anything. I am saying they had it right at launch. I have 18 characters and plan to make more. It really gets old going to designated points over and over. It really is silly too. I could be in the heart of Maguuma doing event chains day after day after day and never progress. In fact, my character could be in the jungle for years and never progress unless he did these specific tasks. Years in the jungle and learned nothing…… 3 seconds of communing and bam wow I know things now!!!
Well, I know I’m not crazy; you said “The whole mastery point/hero point system defeats the “play as you want” aspect of the game …” I’m not sure how to take that other than Anet has the play how you want ideology and they threw that out with the MP/HP system in HoT. My problem with that statement is that you don’t know if the play how you want was intended by Anet to be applicable to character progression; seems to me that the context of ‘play how you want’ has more to do with not be tied to a specific role in the game like tank or healer because every class has the same basic set of defensive and offensive capabilities.
Just as a fictitious example: I could say that I should be able to earn a reward simply by standing AFK in LA because that’s playing how I want. Obviously, that would be rather stupid for me to do such a thing because there is no logical connection between playing how I want and what rewards I’m after; the fact that you could progress your character in Core playing how you want is simply a coincidence.
Listen, if your complaint is that you don’t like having to do hero points to get elite specs on 18 characters … OK, but bringing play how you want ideology into this and saying you can’t do that to get those hero points makes no sense because you don’t know if that’s the context of that ideology in the first place.
Go ahead and complain, but use some critical thinking doing it.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
The first year and a half of gw2 was truly “play as you want”. When I refer to “play as you want”, I am referring to how the game was the 1st year and a half not Anet’s manifesto. I think the system Anet had in place truly enabled players to play what they wanted in pve and always progress. There was no content that you were forced into to progress your character.
If you will read my first post in this thread, Obtena, I clearly said the “play as you want” aspect of this game was strong at launch. I never stated that this was what the developers meant by “play as you want”. However, I do find it odd that gw2 launched as a truly play as you want game.
I am not trying to define Anet’s policy on “play as you want”. I am saying that the system they had in place originally was the best for player freedom. I think forcing players into content that is either tedious or offputting(adventures, gold sink mastery points, etc.) in the name of character progression is not a good thing for the game
(edited by Dashingsteel.3410)
Man guys, I dont know I think the cost is way to high for skills in this rpg im playing right now, is it to much to ask to max my character in 2 hours? I only paid 60 bucks for it plus dlc, geesh its not like ill get bored with it having all my skills nearly instant in an rpg then actually progressing towards it with great pacing through the content itself.
Like seriously rpgs are suppose to only last an hour or two dont you know this?
Some people are interested in playing the new specs, but not in earning them. Others prefer to earn them. Some people can make RPG’s last a long time without the game providing time sinks. Others can’t.
It doesnt mean it should change for them either, it doesnt matter what kind of style that like rpg is a specific style and this is an mmorpg. I am sure there is certain online games where you start with everything unlocked.
(edited by Ryou.2398)
The first year and a half of gw2 was truly “play as you want”. When I refer to “play as you want”, I am referring to how the game was the 1st year and a half not Anet’s manifesto. I think the system Anet had in place truly enabled players to play what they wanted in pve and always progress. There was no content that you were forced into to progress your character.
If you will read my first post in this thread, Obtena, I clearly said the “play as you want” aspect of this game was strong at launch. I never stated that this was what the developers meant by “play as you want”. However, I do find it odd that gw2 launched as a truly play as you want game.
I am not trying to define Anet’s policy on “play as you want”. I am saying that the system they had in place originally was the best for player freedom. I think forcing players into content that is either tedious or offputting(adventures, gold sink mastery points, etc.) in the name of character progression is not a good thing for the game
Well it was certainly play as you want to level. It was not play as you want to get a legendary. It wasn’t even play as you want to get dungeon armor and weapons. Specific goals required specific content to be completed since launch.
When Anet made the PvP reward tracks, that was a step toward play as you want, because then PvP players could get dungeon armor and weapons.
At launch there were many things that WvW players had to do to get what they wanted in the game.
I should also mention ascended gear was introduced only two months after the game launched. From that point on, the game was a whole lot less play as you want for some portion of the player base.
Now, you could argue you don’t need ascended gear, and you’d be right…technically. But certain players feel they need it and thus they need it. No saying you don’t need it to those people will convince them. And then those people could no longer play as they wanted, two months after launch.
The same exact thing can be said for masteries. Masteries are not required for most content. There are only a handful of masteries you need to get and you can get the point for them by either playing the story or getting a few lock boxes and mastery point communes in game.
The rest of it is optional. If you want it, you go for it. Of course, some people will say it’s not optional, in the way I argue that raids aren’t optional if you want legendary armor.
The point is, it’s play as you want for what you need and always has been. It remains that way, more or less, even now.
It only changes when you feel you need something that is only necessary to your way of thinking or your play style.
Man guys, I dont know I think the cost is way to high for skills in this rpg im playing right now, is it to much to ask to max my character in 2 hours? I only paid 60 bucks for it plus dlc, geesh its not like ill get bored with it having all my skills nearly instant in an rpg then actually progressing towards it with great pacing through the content itself.
Like seriously rpgs are suppose to only last an hour or two dont you know this?
Some people are interested in playing the new specs, but not in earning them. Others prefer to earn them. Some people can make RPG’s last a long time without the game providing time sinks. Others can’t.
It doesnt mean it shouldn’t change for them either, it doesnt matter what kind of style that like rpg is a specific style and this is an mmorpg. I am sure there is certain online games where you start with everything unlocked.
Online games maybe, but I seriously, seriously doubt there’s a single mmoRPG that starts with everything unlocked.
If you play RPGs (and MMORPGS are just an extension of that genre) the expectation it to progress through stats or skills or gear. Even the original D&D which the RPG genre is pretty much based on had such progression in pen and paper.
Taking the progression out of an RPG, even an MMORPG, is like taking the combat out of an FPS.
Man guys, I dont know I think the cost is way to high for skills in this rpg im playing right now, is it to much to ask to max my character in 2 hours? I only paid 60 bucks for it plus dlc, geesh its not like ill get bored with it having all my skills nearly instant in an rpg then actually progressing towards it with great pacing through the content itself.
Like seriously rpgs are suppose to only last an hour or two dont you know this?
Some people are interested in playing the new specs, but not in earning them. Others prefer to earn them. Some people can make RPG’s last a long time without the game providing time sinks. Others can’t.
It doesnt mean it shouldn’t change for them either, it doesnt matter what kind of style that like rpg is a specific style and this is an mmorpg. I am sure there is certain online games where you start with everything unlocked.
Online games maybe, but I seriously, seriously doubt there’s a single mmoRPG that starts with everything unlocked.
If you play RPGs (and MMORPGS are just an extension of that genre) the expectation it to progress through stats or skills or gear. Even the original D&D which the RPG genre is pretty much based on had such progression in pen and paper.
Taking the progression out of an RPG, even an MMORPG, is like taking the combat out of an FPS.
I meant to say should not shouldn’t, anyways that’s exactly what I was saying and that’s why I said online game not mmorpg.
(edited by Ryou.2398)
The first year and a half of gw2 was truly “play as you want”. When I refer to “play as you want”, I am referring to how the game was the 1st year and a half not Anet’s manifesto.
It’s always been the case that some content was not play how you want from day one so it’s silly that people randomly apply that to whatever game element they are talking about. No, it wasn’t truly ‘play how you want’ for the first year and a half. The game was launched as a play how you want FOR SPECIFIC elements of the game, not any game element that random gamer decided it should be applicable to.
I could care less about the manifesto. Anyone invoking the play how you want card for an explanation of why they don’t like something in HoT better have a really good understanding of the context of that ideology in the first place.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Obtena, please utilize your critical thinking skills when you read posts. I was clearly saying that the pve aspect of the game was play as you want. All my posts were how player progression in pve were play as you want the first year and a half. Quit trying to set up a strawman argument against me.
No problem … many elements of PVE were not play how you want since day 1. How is this for critical thinking … just because you recognized that player progression was play as you want in Core doesn’t mean that Anet consciously intended or designed player progression around that ideology.
There is no strawman here; you are making assumptions about Anet’s intent for what play how you want means based on your observation you played how you wanted as you progressed your character. That’s just a hypothesis, an unproven one, and your using it to suggest that the OP’s complaint that elite specs are too grindy has merit.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Nope, that is the strawman you are creating. I haven’t assumed Anet’s intent. I directly said that the system they had at launch supported play as you want. I did not say that was their overarching intent for the game. I am just saying that they should go back to the original system as the hero point/ mastery point is forcing players into tedious or offputting content(adventure, gold sink mastery points)
I’m saying play how you want is not applicable to earning HP/MP, so suggesting those rewards should be ‘more like’ playing how you want to earn them is utter nonsense. I don’t think you could be more disingenuous here; I know you don’t believe players should dictate how they decide to obtain rewards they want, EVEN in Anet’s context of a ‘play how you want’ game environment, EVEN in Core before HoT existed.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I am suggesting getting rid of hero points and mastery points. Why is filling up the mastery bar not enough to buy that particular mastery bar. Why does there have to be this idiotic mastery point to seal the deal… It was to force players into content. Experience should be the end all and be all.
I am suggesting getting rid of hero points and mastery points. Why is filling up the mastery bar not enough to buy that particular mastery bar. Why does there have to be this idiotic mastery point to seal the deal… It was to force players into content. Experience should be the end all and be all.
That’s a completely different discussion and one I haven’t seen yet. Removal of hero points is a fantasy; it’s a fundamental approach to how characters progress, even in Core. It’s not even worth mentioning removing them at this point in the game.
Mastery points I could do away with, but I see what Anet is doing with them and I think for the most part, it works. It does seem to be an unnecessary layer to advancement.
Removal of hero points wouldn’t be such a fantasy if they went back to the skill point system and actually allowed leveling up to award you with a skill/hero point…….. We can keep it hero points but allow the leveling reward past 80…….. I am not saying they will ever do this. I just think it was a better system.
Just an edit…. I don’t want to remove the hero points from the map….. It is the hero point system where leveling past 80 doesn’t give you another hero point that I want to do away with…… I want it like the old skill point system
(edited by Dashingsteel.3410)
No problem … many elements of PVE were not play how you want since day 1. How is this for critical thinking … just because you recognized that player progression was play as you want in Core doesn’t mean that Anet consciously intended or designed player progression around that ideology.
You’re ignoring obvious facts. Progression in core was leveling. The game, by design, threw XP at players for doing literally anything. ergo, players could play how they wanted and progress.
I’m saying play how you want is not applicable to earning HP/MP, so suggesting those rewards should be ‘more like’ playing how you want to earn them is utter nonsense.
While you are correct that MP/Hp are not “play how you want” (HC’s never were, just ask any WvW only player), you are incorrect in suggesting that a suggestion is nonsense because it ignores the way things are. Suggestions, by their very nature, are requests for change, are that player’s preference, and thus cannot be nonsense. That you disagree they should be accommodated means you disagree, not that you get to try to belittle the idea by appealing to the status quo.
All that said, the _facts- are that “Play how you want” has a specific meaning to Anet. From the FAQ on the Wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions
“Technically, yes. During development, ArenaNet specifically stated that they were not trying to make another World of Warcraft clone. Their core ideals of accessibility, playing how you want to play, the ability to play with your friends, and not having to wait until maximum level to “begin playing the game” were prominently mentioned in the press for the game."
So, yes, it does seem as if ANet stepped away from that as it relates to progression when deciding to create an incentive for players to play “adventures” by using MP as a carrot. That, unfortunately, has little to do with this thread topic, which is Elite Specs via HC’s. As noted above, HC’s have never been part of the “play how you want” philosophy.
Actually it does because the excessive amount of hero point cost that these elite specs cost force people into tedious content. If we still got our skill/hero point reward for leveling after 80 these costs wouldn’t have been much of an issue.
No problem … many elements of PVE were not play how you want since day 1. How is this for critical thinking … just because you recognized that player progression was play as you want in Core doesn’t mean that Anet consciously intended or designed player progression around that ideology.
You’re ignoring obvious facts. Progression in core was leveling. The game, by design, threw XP at players for doing literally anything. ergo, players could play how they wanted and progress.
I’m saying play how you want is not applicable to earning HP/MP, so suggesting those rewards should be ‘more like’ playing how you want to earn them is utter nonsense.
While you are correct that MP/Hp are not “play how you want” (HC’s never were, just ask any WvW only player), you are incorrect in suggesting that a suggestion is nonsense because it ignores the way things are. Suggestions, by their very nature, are requests for change, are that player’s preference, and thus cannot be nonsense. That you disagree they should be accommodated means you disagree, not that you get to try to belittle the idea by appealing to the status quo.
All that said, the _facts- are that “Play how you want” has a specific meaning to Anet. From the FAQ on the Wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions
“Technically, yes. During development, ArenaNet specifically stated that they were not trying to make another World of Warcraft clone. Their core ideals of accessibility, playing how you want to play, the ability to play with your friends, and not having to wait until maximum level to “begin playing the game” were prominently mentioned in the press for the game."
So, yes, it does seem as if ANet stepped away from that as it relates to progression when deciding to create an incentive for players to play “adventures” by using MP as a carrot. That, unfortunately, has little to do with this thread topic, which is Elite Specs via HC’s. As noted above, HC’s have never been part of the “play how you want” philosophy.
I missed nothing; I recognize all of what you said and I don’t see how it changes my position. These are not suggestions we are talking about; these are claims forming the basis of people’s arguments. Ergo, those arguments are faulty to begin with. If play how you want was an ideology that Anet did not intend for character progression, the idea that HoT MP/HP should return to play how you want ideals because they are character progression elements is nonsense.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
No problem … many elements of PVE were not play how you want since day 1. How is this for critical thinking … just because you recognized that player progression was play as you want in Core doesn’t mean that Anet consciously intended or designed player progression around that ideology.
You’re ignoring obvious facts. Progression in core was leveling. The game, by design, threw XP at players for doing literally anything. ergo, players could play how they wanted and progress.
I’m saying play how you want is not applicable to earning HP/MP, so suggesting those rewards should be ‘more like’ playing how you want to earn them is utter nonsense.
While you are correct that MP/Hp are not “play how you want” (HC’s never were, just ask any WvW only player), you are incorrect in suggesting that a suggestion is nonsense because it ignores the way things are. Suggestions, by their very nature, are requests for change, are that player’s preference, and thus cannot be nonsense. That you disagree they should be accommodated means you disagree, not that you get to try to belittle the idea by appealing to the status quo.
All that said, the _facts- are that “Play how you want” has a specific meaning to Anet. From the FAQ on the Wiki:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frequently_Asked_Questions
“Technically, yes. During development, ArenaNet specifically stated that they were not trying to make another World of Warcraft clone. Their core ideals of accessibility, playing how you want to play, the ability to play with your friends, and not having to wait until maximum level to “begin playing the game” were prominently mentioned in the press for the game."
So, yes, it does seem as if ANet stepped away from that as it relates to progression when deciding to create an incentive for players to play “adventures” by using MP as a carrot. That, unfortunately, has little to do with this thread topic, which is Elite Specs via HC’s. As noted above, HC’s have never been part of the “play how you want” philosophy.
I missed nothing; I recognize all of what you said and I don’t see how it changes my position. These are not suggestions we are talking about; these are claims forming the basis of people’s arguments. Ergo, those arguments are faulty to begin with. If play how you want was an ideology that Anet did not intend for character progression, the idea that HoT MP/HP should return to play how you want ideals because they are character progression elements is nonsense.
It isn’t necessary to have a philosophy statement. One can judge intent by results. Since one can progress in the core game by doing almost anything (other than playing the TP or standing around chatting), it is obvious that Anet’s intent with regard to progression was one which promoted accessibility and choice. It’s also obvious that intent changed when Masteries hit. This is not the only time they’ve changed their tune, and this is not the only time people have complained and made suggestions about returning to prior ways of doing things.
Also, you seem to like to throw the word “nonsense” around. You should then be aware that it does not make sense to insist that a player saying “ANet ought to do this because reasons.” is anything but a suggestion. Justification for a suggestion is still part of the suggestion.
HP’s, of course, were never “play how you want.” so rail about that all you want and you’ll hear nothing from me.
Now that HoT zones are for the most part empty outside of primetime hours, I find it difficult to get the hero points I need to unlock my elite spec on a new account. Even in WvW (and I play in T2) there’s no action outside of the few NA primetime hours. So having to unlock elite specs now is a pain in my rear.
Note I’m a seasoned vet, already done it on my main account, maxed masteries and all elite specs unlocked. But for fun I started a new account just to see what a brand new player sees and feels. With no masteries other than basic gliding unlocked, and HoT zones mostly empty, it’s really quite frustrating unlocking elite specs now.
So I think for the sake of player retention and to make sure players who just purchased HoT won’t quit out of frustration, I think Anet needs to do more to help people get their elite specs unlocked. It’s just how I feel now that I started over on a new account in an attempt to unlock an elite spec. I’m finding myself just logging out when I see empty HoT zones and a non-active WvW outside of primetime hours.
force people into tedious content.
And there we have it.
You just don’t want to do something for that reward. This is fair enough, there’s plenty of things I don’t want to do like the legendary quests. I don’t expect to get a legendary at the end of not doing it however.
If you just don’t want to walk up to something and commune at it, just say. I can see how that would be tedious to some and if they gave us hearts to feed some cows at or some turnips to dig up, that would be much better content.
Blame Abaddon, he loves your tears.
pve, raid, pvp, fractal, dungeon, world clearing, legendary questing.. Zapped!
pve, raid, pvp, fractal, dungeon, world clearing, legendary questing.. Zapped!
Now that HoT zones are for the most part empty outside of primetime hours
What hours do you consider primetime? Also are you aware that there are timers so you can see when the meta is on? It’s easy to get to a map late and end up in an empty version of it whilst there are 200 people mowing down Mordrem in a different instance to you.
Have a look at dulfy.net for a handy HoT timer and try to turn up a bit early for the start of a meta. Ten minutes is not unreasonable.
Blame Abaddon, he loves your tears.
pve, raid, pvp, fractal, dungeon, world clearing, legendary questing.. Zapped!
pve, raid, pvp, fractal, dungeon, world clearing, legendary questing.. Zapped!
I was not talking about getting a legendary. When the game 1st started, character progression was free of forced content. The game has changed in that respect. I think the change is bad for the game.
Acquiring legendaries and special items is a totally different thing. My point was only for character progression.
Actually acquiring legendaries and special items are exactly the same thing as character progression in terms of game play satisfaction; both are rewards for doing a set of activities, both give a feeling of achievement, both are something you work towards. The only difference is that you are OK with being told what to do get certain kinds of rewards and with others, you aren’t. I guess that makes it convenient for your side of the discussion to paint them with a different brush though.
General Health has it exactly right; people are just not willing to do what is necessary to get certain rewards. It’s simple as that. We see it for legendaries, precursors, elite specs; name whatever reward you can think of, someone has complained about it; it’s a common theme and it’s called entitlement “I want this now and I want it my way because I’m me”. They invoke silly reasons like ‘play how you want clause’, make it sound like Anet has screwed the game over, insists it needs correction and hope correction has acceptable ways to get the rewards they don’t want to work for.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I am fine with how gw2 started. Which was no forced content for pve progression, while earning skins and legendaries had specific tasks. I am just a fan of at launch gw2 system.
By the way I’ve crafted 2 legendaries so I don’t know what you are on about.
Your attempts at strawman arguments fail again.
I guess your real beef is with at launch gw2 system.
(edited by Dashingsteel.3410)
Actually acquiring legendaries and special items are exactly the same thing as character progression in terms of game play satisfaction; both are rewards for doing a set of activities, both give a feeling of achievement, both are something you work towards. The only difference is that you are OK with being told what to do get certain kinds of rewards and with others, you aren’t. I guess that makes it convenient for your side of the discussion to paint them with a different brush though.
General Health has it exactly right; people are just not willing to do what is necessary to get certain rewards. It’s simple as that. We see it for legendaries, precursors, elite specs; name whatever reward you can think of, someone has complained about it; it’s a common theme and it’s called entitlement “I want this now and I want it my way because I’m me”. They invoke silly reasons like ‘play how you want clause’, make it sound like Anet has screwed the game over, insists it needs correction and hope correction has acceptable ways to get the rewards they don’t want to work for.
You might consider that if you have to resort to invoking pejoratives like “silly reasons” or strawmen like “don’t want to work,” then your argument lacks merit in and of itself.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
Actually acquiring legendaries and special items are exactly the same thing as character progression in terms of game play satisfaction; both are rewards for doing a set of activities, both give a feeling of achievement, both are something you work towards. The only difference is that you are OK with being told what to do get certain kinds of rewards and with others, you aren’t. I guess that makes it convenient for your side of the discussion to paint them with a different brush though.
General Health has it exactly right; people are just not willing to do what is necessary to get certain rewards. It’s simple as that. We see it for legendaries, precursors, elite specs; name whatever reward you can think of, someone has complained about it; it’s a common theme and it’s called entitlement “I want this now and I want it my way because I’m me”. They invoke silly reasons like ‘play how you want clause’, make it sound like Anet has screwed the game over, insists it needs correction and hope correction has acceptable ways to get the rewards they don’t want to work for.
You might consider that if you have to resort to invoking pejoratives like “silly reasons” or strawmen like “don’t want to work,” then your argument lacks merit in and of itself.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
Excuse me? Do you even know the mmo genre? Lets go back to everquest 1 and 2 both took ages to fully level including your alternate advancement after you hit max levels, and I mean it took a very long time, look at wow, yea leveling didnt take as long as eq1 or 2 but to get better gear it certainly did, you would be grinding raid after raid after raid, atleast guild wars 2 gives you more options.
What about star wars galaxies where it would take time sinks to gather mats and craft because everything was craft only.
Actually acquiring legendaries and special items are exactly the same thing as character progression in terms of game play satisfaction; both are rewards for doing a set of activities, both give a feeling of achievement, both are something you work towards. The only difference is that you are OK with being told what to do get certain kinds of rewards and with others, you aren’t. I guess that makes it convenient for your side of the discussion to paint them with a different brush though.
General Health has it exactly right; people are just not willing to do what is necessary to get certain rewards. It’s simple as that. We see it for legendaries, precursors, elite specs; name whatever reward you can think of, someone has complained about it; it’s a common theme and it’s called entitlement “I want this now and I want it my way because I’m me”. They invoke silly reasons like ‘play how you want clause’, make it sound like Anet has screwed the game over, insists it needs correction and hope correction has acceptable ways to get the rewards they don’t want to work for.
You might consider that if you have to resort to invoking pejoratives like “silly reasons” or strawmen like “don’t want to work,” then your argument lacks merit in and of itself.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
Excuse me? Do you even know the mmo genre? Lets go back to everquest 1 and 2 both took ages to fully level including your alternate advancement after you hit max levels, and I mean it took a very long time, look at wow, yea leveling didnt take as long as eq1 or 2 but to get better gear it certainly did, you would be grinding raid after raid after raid, atleast guild wars 2 gives you more options.
What about star wars galaxies where it would take time sinks to gather mats and craft because everything was craft only.
Yeah, all of which is different than playing a min-game that has nothing to do with the actual game I bought to max progression. Thanks for supporting my point.
Actually acquiring legendaries and special items are exactly the same thing as character progression in terms of game play satisfaction; both are rewards for doing a set of activities, both give a feeling of achievement, both are something you work towards. The only difference is that you are OK with being told what to do get certain kinds of rewards and with others, you aren’t. I guess that makes it convenient for your side of the discussion to paint them with a different brush though.
General Health has it exactly right; people are just not willing to do what is necessary to get certain rewards. It’s simple as that. We see it for legendaries, precursors, elite specs; name whatever reward you can think of, someone has complained about it; it’s a common theme and it’s called entitlement “I want this now and I want it my way because I’m me”. They invoke silly reasons like ‘play how you want clause’, make it sound like Anet has screwed the game over, insists it needs correction and hope correction has acceptable ways to get the rewards they don’t want to work for.
You might consider that if you have to resort to invoking pejoratives like “silly reasons” or strawmen like “don’t want to work,” then your argument lacks merit in and of itself.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
Excuse me? Do you even know the mmo genre? Lets go back to everquest 1 and 2 both took ages to fully level including your alternate advancement after you hit max levels, and I mean it took a very long time, look at wow, yea leveling didnt take as long as eq1 or 2 but to get better gear it certainly did, you would be grinding raid after raid after raid, atleast guild wars 2 gives you more options.
What about star wars galaxies where it would take time sinks to gather mats and craft because everything was craft only.
Yeah, all of which is different than playing a min-game that has nothing to do with the actual game I bought to max progression. Thanks for supporting my point.
No it doesn’t support your point at all, getting hero points I’d literally like any other rpg, its not a mini game, its something you do as you play ghe content, you donf need to do anything beyond the path your taking throughout Cote gake and hots content
Actually acquiring legendaries and special items are exactly the same thing as character progression in terms of game play satisfaction; both are rewards for doing a set of activities, both give a feeling of achievement, both are something you work towards. The only difference is that you are OK with being told what to do get certain kinds of rewards and with others, you aren’t. I guess that makes it convenient for your side of the discussion to paint them with a different brush though.
General Health has it exactly right; people are just not willing to do what is necessary to get certain rewards. It’s simple as that. We see it for legendaries, precursors, elite specs; name whatever reward you can think of, someone has complained about it; it’s a common theme and it’s called entitlement “I want this now and I want it my way because I’m me”. They invoke silly reasons like ‘play how you want clause’, make it sound like Anet has screwed the game over, insists it needs correction and hope correction has acceptable ways to get the rewards they don’t want to work for.
You might consider that if you have to resort to invoking pejoratives like “silly reasons” or strawmen like “don’t want to work,” then your argument lacks merit in and of itself.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
Excuse me? Do you even know the mmo genre? Lets go back to everquest 1 and 2 both took ages to fully level including your alternate advancement after you hit max levels, and I mean it took a very long time, look at wow, yea leveling didnt take as long as eq1 or 2 but to get better gear it certainly did, you would be grinding raid after raid after raid, atleast guild wars 2 gives you more options.
What about star wars galaxies where it would take time sinks to gather mats and craft because everything was craft only.
Yeah, all of which is different than playing a min-game that has nothing to do with the actual game I bought to max progression. Thanks for supporting my point.
No it doesn’t support your point at all, getting hero points I’d literally like any other rpg, its not a mini game, its something you do as you play ghe content, you donf need to do anything beyond the path your taking throughout Cote gake and hots content
While the topic is indeed about HP, a tangent developed with regard to MP, which are part of the the HoT progression system. My conversation with Obtena was more about MP, specifically those in adventures, than HP — had you followed it back. HP were obtained in only one way, going back to one to when they were skill points. In fact, acquiring HP now is more accessible than it used to be because they can be gained in WvW. I have no issue with objections to the OP’s complaint about HP. I’m sorry if that was not specified in every post I made.
A maxed out character with everything done will have about 364 hero points left over. That’s 36 Hot Hero challenges not done. Given there is a total of 40 hero challenges (of which around 20 are soloable easily), I don’t see the problem.
The Hero points system and elite specialisations were specifically added as progression and already altered twice to accommodate players with less desire to grind. As is, I was able to take a fresh 80 (high there tomes of knowledge) and get her maxed on elite specialisation within 2 hours of simply getting the simplest HoT challenges spliced in with some Tyria mastery points while helping a friend.
As far as WvW, simply play wvw and unlock via Proof of Heroics (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Proof_of_Heroics). Absolutely no reason to set s single foot in PvE if not desired.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
I’m open to this challenge … if you think it’s not, then go ahead and tell us why. I’ve already given several reasons why character progression is very similar to other rewards ingame. I mean, just saying it’s no where near other rewards doesn’t just magically make that true. So go ahead, we are listening.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
I’m open to this challenge … if you think it’s not, then go ahead and tell us why. I’ve already given several reasons why character progression is very similar to other rewards ingame. I mean, just saying it’s no where near other rewards doesn’t just magically make that true. So go ahead, we are listening.
MMO’s have different types of progression. They offer leveling, achievements, gear chases, tiers of instanced content, PvP ranks, etc. Of those, leveling is always the most accessible, in that different types of activities grant XP, whereas the other forms all require some engagement with specific content, with in some cases the benefits being awarded via a second means (like gear with approximate benefits to raid gear gained in PvP). The only way that GW2 is different in this regard is that XP can be gained by a broader range of activities, making leveling even more accessible than in other MMO’s. This is why I say that leveling is different than other forms of progression.
Expansions in the genre generally have a level cap increase in addition to an infusion of other progressive goals. As with basic leveling, that type of progression is much more accessible than the other forms. Again, there is a difference.
When Anet announced HoT, they established that there would be no level cap raise, and that Masteries would serve as horizontal progression instead. Thus, the Mastery System is intended as a stand-in for XPac leveling. The XP component of Masteries is just like leveling with regard to accessibility. The Mastery Point system is not.
Players who — in other MMO’s — would choose to get to the new level cap by doing specific activities they prefer do not have that choice with regard to the level cap increase stand-in. Gaining XP is worthless without the points.
The benefits of masteries are — with a few exceptions — region specific. Leveling. of course, would not be. Thus, limiting the access to HoT masteries through XP and points gained in HoT seems appropriate. However, exploring and “questing” (events) in Hot requires one gain certain Masteries. There are places one cannot get to without certain mid or high-tier Masteries, and some events that cannot be enjoyed without other mid-high tier ones (try enjoying the Ax-Master boss without Stealth Detection).
Contrast that with specific progression goals in other MMO’s. Raid gear, for instance, can be used anywhere, but is really only needed in raids. Many other MMO goals offer no benefits other than bragging rights (achievements, titles, skins) or the benefits are specific and can be gained where they are useful (reputation in WoW, crafting increases).
This is why I believe we see complaints specifically about Mastery Points. Players need enough of them to max certain benefits, which are needed in certain content. However, playing that content does not allow enough points to gain these benefits given the facts of tiers within Mastery lines and the fact that different lines hold movement Masteries and things like Stealth Detection/Poison Mastery and Exalted Gathering. Couple that with the expectation that Masteries are the level-cap increase stand-in and leveling in GW2 is the most accessible form of progression in any MMO I’ve seen, and we see the complaints.
If you don’t agree, then fine. However, I believe you’d be ignoring the comparison drawn between Masteries and Leveling and the way leveling works versus more content-specific forms of progression in the genre.
To return — hopefully for good — to the thread topic, I do not accept the OP’s complaint that HP should be more accessible. They are arguably more accessible than they were in core due to the WvW acquisition method put in last winter. I do have concerns about how viable Group Event challenges will be as HoT ages, but so far that has not been as much of an issue as I though it might — at least as far as I’ve seen.
Peace.
Actually acquiring legendaries and special items are exactly the same thing as character progression in terms of game play satisfaction; both are rewards for doing a set of activities, both give a feeling of achievement, both are something you work towards. The only difference is that you are OK with being told what to do get certain kinds of rewards and with others, you aren’t. I guess that makes it convenient for your side of the discussion to paint them with a different brush though.
General Health has it exactly right; people are just not willing to do what is necessary to get certain rewards. It’s simple as that. We see it for legendaries, precursors, elite specs; name whatever reward you can think of, someone has complained about it; it’s a common theme and it’s called entitlement “I want this now and I want it my way because I’m me”. They invoke silly reasons like ‘play how you want clause’, make it sound like Anet has screwed the game over, insists it needs correction and hope correction has acceptable ways to get the rewards they don’t want to work for.
You might consider that if you have to resort to invoking pejoratives like “silly reasons” or strawmen like “don’t want to work,” then your argument lacks merit in and of itself.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
Excuse me? Do you even know the mmo genre? Lets go back to everquest 1 and 2 both took ages to fully level including your alternate advancement after you hit max levels, and I mean it took a very long time, look at wow, yea leveling didnt take as long as eq1 or 2 but to get better gear it certainly did, you would be grinding raid after raid after raid, atleast guild wars 2 gives you more options.
What about star wars galaxies where it would take time sinks to gather mats and craft because everything was craft only.
Yeah, all of which is different than playing a min-game that has nothing to do with the actual game I bought to max progression. Thanks for supporting my point.
No it doesn’t support your point at all, getting hero points I’d literally like any other rpg, its not a mini game, its something you do as you play ghe content, you donf need to do anything beyond the path your taking throughout Cote gake and hots content
While the topic is indeed about HP, a tangent developed with regard to MP, which are part of the the HoT progression system. My conversation with Obtena was more about MP, specifically those in adventures, than HP — had you followed it back. HP were obtained in only one way, going back to one to when they were skill points. In fact, acquiring HP now is more accessible than it used to be because they can be gained in WvW. I have no issue with objections to the OP’s complaint about HP. I’m sorry if that was not specified in every post I made.
Considering the topic title saids hero points, then yea you might want to make it more clear since your going off topic.
And no, character progression is nowhere near the same thing as every other reward in the game. Examine the MMO genre, as well as how GW2 worked pre-HoT.
I’m open to this challenge … if you think it’s not, then go ahead and tell us why. I’ve already given several reasons why character progression is very similar to other rewards ingame. I mean, just saying it’s no where near other rewards doesn’t just magically make that true. So go ahead, we are listening.
MMO’s have different types of progression. They offer leveling, achievements, gear chases, tiers of instanced content, PvP ranks, etc. Of those, leveling is always the most accessible, in that different types of activities grant XP, whereas the other forms all require some engagement with specific content, with in some cases the benefits being awarded via a second means (like gear with approximate benefits to raid gear gained in PvP). The only way that GW2 is different in this regard is that XP can be gained by a broader range of activities, making leveling even more accessible than in other MMO’s. This is why I say that leveling is different than other forms of progression.
Expansions in the genre generally have a level cap increase in addition to an infusion of other progressive goals. As with basic leveling, that type of progression is much more accessible than the other forms. Again, there is a difference.
When Anet announced HoT, they established that there would be no level cap raise, and that Masteries would serve as horizontal progression instead. Thus, the Mastery System is intended as a stand-in for XPac leveling. The XP component of Masteries is just like leveling with regard to accessibility. The Mastery Point system is not.
Players who — in other MMO’s — would choose to get to the new level cap by doing specific activities they prefer do not have that choice with regard to the level cap increase stand-in. Gaining XP is worthless without the points.
The benefits of masteries are — with a few exceptions — region specific. Leveling. of course, would not be. Thus, limiting the access to HoT masteries through XP and points gained in HoT seems appropriate. However, exploring and “questing” (events) in Hot requires one gain certain Masteries. There are places one cannot get to without certain mid or high-tier Masteries, and some events that cannot be enjoyed without other mid-high tier ones (try enjoying the Ax-Master boss without Stealth Detection).
Contrast that with specific progression goals in other MMO’s. Raid gear, for instance, can be used anywhere, but is really only needed in raids. Many other MMO goals offer no benefits other than bragging rights (achievements, titles, skins) or the benefits are specific and can be gained where they are useful (reputation in WoW, crafting increases).
This is why I believe we see complaints specifically about Mastery Points. Players need enough of them to max certain benefits, which are needed in certain content. However, playing that content does not allow enough points to gain these benefits given the facts of tiers within Mastery lines and the fact that different lines hold movement Masteries and things like Stealth Detection/Poison Mastery and Exalted Gathering. Couple that with the expectation that Masteries are the level-cap increase stand-in and leveling in GW2 is the most accessible form of progression in any MMO I’ve seen, and we see the complaints.
If you don’t agree, then fine. However, I believe you’d be ignoring the comparison drawn between Masteries and Leveling and the way leveling works versus more content-specific forms of progression in the genre.
To return — hopefully for good — to the thread topic, I do not accept the OP’s complaint that HP should be more accessible. They are arguably more accessible than they were in core due to the WvW acquisition method put in last winter. I do have concerns about how viable Group Event challenges will be as HoT ages, but so far that has not been as much of an issue as I though it might — at least as far as I’ve seen.
Peace.
Its like you pulled the words right out of my mouth with a far more thoughtful and better explanation.
I see lots of reasoning that differentiates MP from leveling and I can’t disagree with most of what you said, but leveling and Hp/MP are fundamentally still rewards given for doing certain activities. That’s important to note because the point being discussed was that MP’s are ‘bad’ because they don’t let you play how you want to earn them, but in a hypocritical manner, other rewards that don’t let you play how you want to earn them didn’t seem to pose a problem. That’s just not recognizing the limitations of developing activities resulting in rewards in the game.
That kind of ‘selective’ application of logic is largely nonsense because if someone argues playing how you want for one reward offends so badly that the game should be changed, then that argument is applicable to any rewards that don’t let you play how you want; the whole game becomes suspect but really, it’s just faulty interpretation. Basically, this is an exercise in demonstrating how poorly understood and badly applied the whole ‘play how you want’ ideology is, rendering it useless as a point to reference for game changes.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
When the expansion first came out, it required you to accumulate 400 points. The change now that requires 200 is more than reasonable.
Anymore than that and you’re simply asking for an Easy Button, which would only be dumbing down the game even more than it is. So no thanks.
All you need are 20x 10 points and there’s groups/guilds that do map HP runs. Just join those.
Yes I’m a vet, yes I’m salty. Problem?
Considering that progression didn’t work off “rewards” at launch I do not think I am being selective. That is how at launch gw2 worked (no forced content for pve character progression, specific content for luxury items) Again, Obtena, I am saying that the at launch setup was better than what they have now. If anyone was selective, it was Anet who started gw2 at launch in this manner.
Keep trying to build your strawman.
(edited by Dashingsteel.3410)
Considering that progression didn’t work off “rewards” at launch I do not think I am being selective. That is how at launch gw2 worked (no forced content for pve character progression, specific content for luxury items) Again, Obtena, I am saying that the at launch setup was better than what they have now. If anyone was selective, it was Anet who started gw2 at launch in this manner.
Keep trying to build your strawman.
Yes and during beta the system was even more different. Launch is over 4 years ago, what is your point?
Arenanet was obviously displeased with how the skillpoint system worked during vanilla and have been working on “fixing” the issue in multiple patches since. It’s something they tried to take over from GW1 but noticed did not work well in GW2.
I will agree to the fact that now there are minor hurdles and requirements in place, but they are so low and have been adjusted multiple times, I just don’t see them as problems.
The current system allows for easier balance and expansion via limitations. The maximum amount of 364 hero points left over is almost an entire new character. You basically only need to finish 1/2 the required content to max out a character and are given multiple ways of doing so.
As someone has said, it was already lowered and much easier to reach. This progression for the elite spec is no different than filling out the rest of the spec trees, you have to go find all the points and fill it out slowly. The only difference is the fact you aren’t getting points from leveling up now.
It sounds like you wanted to make a hot only character when the game does not support that idea. Go out in the world and find like 2/3 of the points out there, then jump into Hot at about 50% completion and knock out another chunk with some solo points.
Elite Specialization cost too high
in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns
Posted by: penelopehannibal.8947
If you’ve got 100% Map Completion in Central Tyria (of all of the Hero Challenges at least) you only need about six Hero Challenges in the Heart of Maguuma to complete an elite spec. Before HoT was released, I made sure I had at least one of each class 100% complete in contemplation for this.
Blood & Merlot [Wine]
- content is about 40-50 hours to max out masteries. I spent about 100-200h on new maps. True, after you did most things, there’s nothing much to do.
- elite spec takes about 2-3 hours if you take it easy. That’s certainly not a lot.
‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong
‘would of been’ —> wrong
I really wish people would stop confusing their own impatience with bad game design, its the mmorpg genre hence the word rpg, hence a sense of progression, patience is a part of life the sooner you learn it the better and that means in everything even in video games, there are other genres if you don’t like this kind of design.
Considering that progression didn’t work off “rewards” at launch I do not think I am being selective. That is how at launch gw2 worked (no forced content for pve character progression, specific content for luxury items) Again, Obtena, I am saying that the at launch setup was better than what they have now. If anyone was selective, it was Anet who started gw2 at launch in this manner.
Keep trying to build your strawman.
progression indeed worked off rewards … you didn’t just get XP for standing around doing nothing. You did some kind of activity for it. I mean, at this point you don’t even make sense. You did something, you got a reward of XP for it. That’s just … true.
(edited by Obtena.7952)