Guild Wars 2

Mikeskies.1536:

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

Your character is alive. In GW2, leveling up and completing hero challenges unlocked progression for your character. For elite specialization, it should be self-evident that gaining access to them requires your character to complete challenges to achieve that. Your character will become elite through character growth, i.e. playing the game. How elite specializations are unlocked should be looked at as exciting to complete challenges to unlock the elite inside your character, not an inconvenience.

Sorry, but I don’t RP. My character is not alive; he is a computer-generated model in a video game. Sorry if it breaks your immersion, but I’d rather have access to my elite spec without having to specifically grind HoT hero challenges.

Coulter.2315:

ScribeTheMad.7614:

I’ll simplify it for you.

I wanted to play the new content as my Herald.

Not play the new content to get a herald at the end.

Ok lets take this example.

You want to play Herald in HoT this means you’re starting a NEW Rev, right?

You now need to level it (with tomes or regularly), by leveling you GAIN Hero points.

You reach 80 having SAVED enough Hero points to unlock Herald’s skills, traits etc.

You now SPEND those Hero points on Herald mechanics.

Congratulations you now get to play HoT as a Herald.

Nope. You have to buy all the core skills/traits before you can put one HP in the new skills/traits. Leveling to 80 with 0 challenges does not give you any more HPs than you need to unlock the core skills/traits.

nacario.9417:

My god this thread shows the dark side of the playerbase, a creation made by Anets casual philosphy over the years.

It’s more the complete neglect and about face of the time<skill philosophy they actively promoted as a point of difference since day one imo combined with retroactively changing the ease at which one attains a fully geared and specced character (trait changes, then the NPE, then etc, etc).

Don’t neglect many commenting are obviously players from the GW1 days where you could level and fully skill/gear out a toon in mere hours THEN start playing the game which is why many, like me, grew to love and support the franchise in the first place.

I mean people are bringing up WoW comparisons as a form of rebuttal.lol

I always thought the expansion would be like starting from scratch in this regard so I’m ok with this (gear grind, not so much but thats covered in other threads) but I get why many feel pretty annoyed at the moment, especially when Anet already got their money and I still have the option to wait and get it cheaper.

Can’t say I sympathize too much with the pre-purchase blues though. That mechanic was clearly proved fubar way before this game started in on it.

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

+1

Agemnon.4608:

Farming, time, and effort aren’t the problem, ludicrous amounts of it are.

I see this phrase popping up over and over. Could someone define for me very specifically what constitutes ludicrous? Cause I’ve been reading the same things you have and I have not seen anything that I could define as ludicrous. Some of this will take a fair amount of time, which is GOOD, because more time spent unlocking things means more time with the content, and not burning through it all in a week and then wondering why there isn’t more to do.

Even with that, I’m pretty certain some people will accomplish 100% Elites on day one. They may not accomplish anything else, but they’ll have that.

The only people this seems to hurt are the people with way too many characters, of which they need all to have elites, for some reason. I’ve got 13 characters, about, one doesn’t exist yet, but will in a couple days. Of those, though, I only plan on getting elites for 4, one of which can definitely wait until much later to go through the process.

If for some reason I absolutely needed all 13 characters to be elites, that would be a problem, but that would still only be a problem for me for having such an unruly number of characters. It’s not ANet’s fault nor problem. If it takes x amount of time to get the thing, then it should absolutely take x times the number of characters you want to up to elites in order to do that. That’s completely reasonable.

Mikeskies.1536:

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

Your character is alive. In GW2, leveling up and completing hero challenges unlocked progression for your character. For elite specialization, it should be self-evident that gaining access to them requires your character to complete challenges to achieve that. Your character will become elite through character growth, i.e. playing the game. How elite specializations are unlocked should be looked at as exciting to complete challenges to unlock the elite inside your character, not an inconvenience.

I could see your perspective if they had worked the Elite Specs into the lore of the instanced story. By that I mean 2-3 instanced story missions into HoT you begin unlocking the Elite Specialization because doing so is part of the story. But they didn’t go there with it. At this point Elite Specs are just a functional mechanic that helps distinguish HoT from the core GW2 game. They are part of what make HoT unique from a play mechanic stand point. The developer already has masteries a player works towards unlocking to alter play mechanic. The way it stands they give existing players not creating a new Rev nothing new functionally when they take an existing character into HoT. In expanshion game design theory you balance “new and shinny” that’s free to players that make the content feel distinguished from what must be worked to achieve. Their stance is that the new maps alone are all the novelty a player needs for the content to feel new and exciting. I find that very pretentious on their part. I made a few BWE#3 characters and spec’d them just like my current main and alts without the elite specs. The new maps were boring and really lacking without having access to the new mechanics. I enjoyed working towards mysteries to unlock new secondary play mechanics but strongly felt and still feel the Elite Specs are something every player who paid for HoT should be entitled to with reasonable existing investment (FYI anyone who values their free time is not likely to have map competition on all their alts nor should they GRIND to go obtain map competition for every alt just to get the foundation 218 hero points from the base game needed.)

This is the most kitten ridiculous, poorly thought out design decision ArenaNet has ever made regarding GW2. It undermines the casual gamer with a day job or full time student who loves the game but doesn’t have 24/7 to repeat the same content over and over again (world exploration on your alts is a type of grind. If you disagree you simply don’t value your free time as much as some of us). It’s a slap to the face of every gamer who bought into their philosophy of making an MMO for everyone.

Elite Spec should have been treated similar to weapon skill unlocks. The 60 hero points should not be required just to unlock the Elite Spec chain. That should be something you are given as part of your HoT purchase. From there 60 hero points should be all that’s required to take the Elite Spec chain from 0-max. The other 340 hero points required should be all about unique elite spec skins, weapon mods, etc… I am 100% ok with them requiring a player to have to work on unlocking the skins, etc… but the core play mechanics of the Elite spec should be available from the moment your level 80 enters HoT and all you should need is 60 hero points to max out the elite trait chain, the skins, etc.. optional and something you work for.

There is plenty of achievement based content to make players work towards in HoT without locking players who don’t want to grind out of being able to play with their Elite Specs. The new vertical maps, adventures, etc.. alone are not enough to give it much value. Having to work my way though 1/2 of the HoT game content just to get to the point where I have my Elite Spec trait line maxed and can actually begin using it is kitten ridiculous. Unacceptable and against the vision and philosophy behind the GW2 core game.

Sirendor.1394:

Nausicca.6038:

Since raising the level cap in GW2 wouldn’t make any sense like in other MMOs xpacs, Anet have decided to add new specs that we will be able to unlock ( level up) with HP.

Just consider HP as the new XP and elite spec the new level cap.

Interesting way to look at it Nausicca! There is indeed a striking resemblance between this and traditional level cap increases. Do you evaluate it possitively because of this or is this rather a criticism for pushing a “hidden level cap” on the players?

I think it’s a good compromise between a real level cap increases (making our current gear obsolete) and no progression at all. I’d rather having a lot of things to do in HoT than the opposite.

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

Elites aren’t time gated. If you can do the content in one day then you can have elites in one day. Time gating means that you cannot physically complete the content in less than a predefined period because you can only earn specific amounts toward it ever x period of time.

The need is, that’s how they wanted to do it. I would have preferred a different system too. Not the one everyone else seems to want, but still different than we got. But this is what we got, and there isn’t actually anything wrong with it, it’s just one way to do it. It isn’t wrong, it’s just one way.

This should be an exciting time, and for most of us it is. But ANet didn’t start a witch hunt. That “privilege” lays soully on the player base who deluded themselves into thinking they could just have anything without putting any effort into it. That has never been ANet’s style.

Black Box.9312:

Mikeskies.1536:

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

Your character is alive. In GW2, leveling up and completing hero challenges unlocked progression for your character. For elite specialization, it should be self-evident that gaining access to them requires your character to complete challenges to achieve that. Your character will become elite through character growth, i.e. playing the game. How elite specializations are unlocked should be looked at as exciting to complete challenges to unlock the elite inside your character, not an inconvenience.

Sorry, but I don’t RP. My character is not alive; he is a computer-generated model in a video game. Sorry if it breaks your immersion, but I’d rather have access to my elite spec without having to specifically grind HoT hero challenges.

It is nothing to do with RP/immersion. That is how GW2 is designed. You participate in events and play through your personal story. Your character is part of a living world. Specializations have always required skill points/hero points, e.g. playing the game. You had to play GW2 for your character to reach level 80, so why should it differ now in an expansion?

Kal Spiro.9745:

Agemnon.4608:

Farming, time, and effort aren’t the problem, ludicrous amounts of it are.

I see this phrase popping up over and over. Could someone define for me very specifically what constitutes ludicrous? Cause I’ve been reading the same things you have and I have not seen anything that I could define as ludicrous. Some of this will take a fair amount of time, which is GOOD, because more time spent unlocking things means more time with the content, and not burning through it all in a week and then wondering why there isn’t more to do.

Even with that, I’m pretty certain some people will accomplish 100% Elites on day one. They may not accomplish anything else, but they’ll have that.

The only people this seems to hurt are the people with way too many characters, of which they need all to have elites, for some reason. I’ve got 13 characters, about, one doesn’t exist yet, but will in a couple days. Of those, though, I only plan on getting elites for 4, one of which can definitely wait until much later to go through the process.

If for some reason I absolutely needed all 13 characters to be elites, that would be a problem, but that would still only be a problem for me for having such an unruly number of characters. It’s not ANet’s fault nor problem. If it takes x amount of time to get the thing, then it should absolutely take x times the number of characters you want to up to elites in order to do that. That’s completely reasonable.

Gating elite specs does not add value to the content. The new content was going to be present either way, and the people who wanted to do it were going to do it regardless. The only thing this has accomplished is that players now feel pressured to complete the content faster without getting to play through it with the elite spec that they want in the first place.

This does not add time and value to content that was going to be played regardless.

Sirendor.1394:

Nausicca.6038:

Since raising the level cap in GW2 wouldn’t make any sense like in other MMOs xpacs, Anet have decided to add new specs that we will be able to unlock ( level up) with HP.

Just consider HP as the new XP and elite spec the new level cap.

Interesting way to look at it Nausicca! There is indeed a striking resemblance between this and traditional level cap increases. Do you evaluate it possitively because of this or is this rather a criticism for pushing a “hidden level cap” on the players?

Your quote is what I was trying to say and a little more.

It is not a hidden level cap as a Level cap prevents you from going forward in the game. Masteries would more be like a Hidden level cap in that case but not Hero Points.
There doesn’t have to be some kind of pregression in a game but it is pretty important to have progression in a game (atleast an MMO) to keep players playing the game. I am pretty happy that I have stuff to do in the game than just play through the story and then I am done.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Should also point out that datamining from a month ago put us at 250 HP for the elite spec, which is more than the currently acquirable 214. Which already refutes Menadena’s statement.

That 250 was a huge part of why many thought the numbers were not to be trusted and were obviously too high.

Black Box.9312:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Agemnon.4608:

Farming, time, and effort aren’t the problem, ludicrous amounts of it are.

I see this phrase popping up over and over. Could someone define for me very specifically what constitutes ludicrous? Cause I’ve been reading the same things you have and I have not seen anything that I could define as ludicrous. Some of this will take a fair amount of time, which is GOOD, because more time spent unlocking things means more time with the content, and not burning through it all in a week and then wondering why there isn’t more to do.

Even with that, I’m pretty certain some people will accomplish 100% Elites on day one. They may not accomplish anything else, but they’ll have that.

The only people this seems to hurt are the people with way too many characters, of which they need all to have elites, for some reason. I’ve got 13 characters, about, one doesn’t exist yet, but will in a couple days. Of those, though, I only plan on getting elites for 4, one of which can definitely wait until much later to go through the process.

If for some reason I absolutely needed all 13 characters to be elites, that would be a problem, but that would still only be a problem for me for having such an unruly number of characters. It’s not ANet’s fault nor problem. If it takes x amount of time to get the thing, then it should absolutely take x times the number of characters you want to up to elites in order to do that. That’s completely reasonable.

Gating elite specs does not add value to the content. The new content was going to be present either way, and the people who wanted to do it were going to do it regardless. The only thing this has accomplished is that players now feel pressured to complete the content faster without getting to play through it with the elite spec that they want in the first place.

This does not add time and value to content that was going to be played regardless.

That “pressure” is an illusion invented by yourself, not by what ANet did.

The main thing I’m worried about is how much of the space I’ll have to play through to get my elite spec. I looove reaper, and I want to experience the HoT content growing my necromancer into the movie monster that reaper represents. But I don’t want to play through the Xpac and end up getting my elite spec right at the end after I’ve done the content. And I really don’t look forward to repeating the content on all my characters I want to get elite specs for.

So OP you just want the most featured thing on the new expansion already unlocked on day 1? Did you realize we are not getting more levels and instead a new specialization?

Its 400 points to unlock the entire spec for that class.
its 60 points to gain the spec for that class.

If you have 60 points today, on day one you should be able to gain the scrapper spec, the 3 minor traits, access to the weapons and skill changes (F1-F5). the rest of the points (340) are to unlock the rest of the traits, all the skills, and the skins for the elite spec. Which falls in line with progression through HoT, IMHO.

its not as bad as everyone is saying it is, the sky is not falling. Just make sure your character has 60 points for release.

Mikeskies.1536:

Black Box.9312:

Mikeskies.1536:

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

Your character is alive. In GW2, leveling up and completing hero challenges unlocked progression for your character. For elite specialization, it should be self-evident that gaining access to them requires your character to complete challenges to achieve that. Your character will become elite through character growth, i.e. playing the game. How elite specializations are unlocked should be looked at as exciting to complete challenges to unlock the elite inside your character, not an inconvenience.

Sorry, but I don’t RP. My character is not alive; he is a computer-generated model in a video game. Sorry if it breaks your immersion, but I’d rather have access to my elite spec without having to specifically grind HoT hero challenges.

It is nothing to do with RP/immersion. That is how GW2 is designed. You participate in events and play through your personal story. Your character is part of a living world. Specializations have always required skill points/hero points, e.g. playing the game. You had to play GW2 for your character to reach level 80, so why should it differ now in an expansion?

Because my characters are already at level 80, which is still the maximum level, and I would kinda rather not have the efforts that I made completing the overworld challenges for the base game go almost entirely to waste. It would be one thing if unlocking the elite spec was simply a natural progression that happened just through playing the game, but instead we have to specifically rush through hero challenges in the jungle to get what we want. This makes it absolutely nothing like what players go through by simply leveling their character from 1 to 80.

Black Box.9312:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Agemnon.4608:

Farming, time, and effort aren’t the problem, ludicrous amounts of it are.

I see this phrase popping up over and over. Could someone define for me very specifically what constitutes ludicrous? Cause I’ve been reading the same things you have and I have not seen anything that I could define as ludicrous. Some of this will take a fair amount of time, which is GOOD, because more time spent unlocking things means more time with the content, and not burning through it all in a week and then wondering why there isn’t more to do.

Even with that, I’m pretty certain some people will accomplish 100% Elites on day one. They may not accomplish anything else, but they’ll have that.

The only people this seems to hurt are the people with way too many characters, of which they need all to have elites, for some reason. I’ve got 13 characters, about, one doesn’t exist yet, but will in a couple days. Of those, though, I only plan on getting elites for 4, one of which can definitely wait until much later to go through the process.

If for some reason I absolutely needed all 13 characters to be elites, that would be a problem, but that would still only be a problem for me for having such an unruly number of characters. It’s not ANet’s fault nor problem. If it takes x amount of time to get the thing, then it should absolutely take x times the number of characters you want to up to elites in order to do that. That’s completely reasonable.

Gating elite specs does not add value to the content. The new content was going to be present either way, and the people who wanted to do it were going to do it regardless. The only thing this has accomplished is that players now feel pressured to complete the content faster without getting to play through it with the elite spec that they want in the first place.

This does not add time and value to content that was going to be played regardless.

That desire to unlock as fast as possible is a self-imposed state of mind. You can still take your time, enjoy the content, and not fall behind other players in any real way.

Progressional goals are good for the game. They give us ways to change how we play over time. Most MMOs do this with a leveling system that directly impacts the stats and power of your character. Im still glad Anet chose a different path – a way that modifies how we play rather than forces us down a power treadmill.

The only thing ANet did wrong was not making clear what the requirements for the Elite would be sooner so that we would know which characters to rush through hero points on before HoT. But only finding out three days before launch it’s more of an annoyance than anything.

I could definitely have had my three characters ready. Of course, I could have done that six months ago when HP requirements were first being discussed, but I didn’t know at the time which elites I might want.

For me, this isn’t about the requirement, but how you’ll have to achieve it.

Some folks are saying ‘but you had to level in the base game, so what’s the difference?’ Those people are 100% right about the first part, but there is a difference in the second part.

In the base game, you could take a level 79 to Queensdale and ding 80 by doing the events there. The elite specs force players into the jungle as it’s the only efficient way to max them.

The core game isn’t like WoW (despite the comparisons, and thankfully) in that you can take a max level toon and still enjoy early content. The jungle in this expac seems like not an addition to a huge and varied world, but a funnel. And yes, I know other MMOs do it like this.

Now the jungle might be great, but unless it’s absolutely huge and varied, like the base game’s world is, I’m going to view leveling elites on my alts as a chore. A real chore.

The real question is for those saying it’s no big deal, is it going to be fun? That remains to be seen.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

Elites aren’t time gated. If you can do the content in one day then you can have elites in one day. Time gating means that you cannot physically complete the content in less than a predefined period because you can only earn specific amounts toward it ever x period of time.

The need is, that’s how they wanted to do it. I would have preferred a different system too. Not the one everyone else seems to want, but still different than we got. But this is what we got, and there isn’t actually anything wrong with it, it’s just one way to do it. It isn’t wrong, it’s just one way.

This should be an exciting time, and for most of us it is. But ANet didn’t start a witch hunt. That “privilege” lays soully on the player base who deluded themselves into thinking they could just have anything without putting any effort into it. That has never been ANet’s style.

Actually that is your definition of time gating, imo time gating is anything that requires you to put in an excessive/lengthy amount of time. If you would have read my full post or any of my other posts for that matter you would have noted I’m not asking it to be handed to us with no strings attached. I would be ok with a small story line quest to unlock it, I would be ok with a realistic amount of HP, I’m not ok with either being forced into the jungle for the quickest method which still won’t be quick, I’m not ok with that slap in the face of an option for WvW players that is completely unrealistic.

Once again, just because Anet slapped the word Elite onto it doesn’t make it Elite. They themselves have stated multiple times that it is not meant to over shadow the core specs it is simply an optional addition.

Menadena.7482:

That 250 was a huge part of why many thought the numbers were not to be trusted and were obviously too high.

To be fair, people thought that was far too high based on getting one hero point per hero challenge.
You now need to do even less hero challenges than the assumed 170. 100% world completion is devalued somewhat in this case, but otherwise it’s still less required work overall.

Black Box.9312:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Agemnon.4608:

Farming, time, and effort aren’t the problem, ludicrous amounts of it are.

I see this phrase popping up over and over. Could someone define for me very specifically what constitutes ludicrous? Cause I’ve been reading the same things you have and I have not seen anything that I could define as ludicrous. Some of this will take a fair amount of time, which is GOOD, because more time spent unlocking things means more time with the content, and not burning through it all in a week and then wondering why there isn’t more to do.

Even with that, I’m pretty certain some people will accomplish 100% Elites on day one. They may not accomplish anything else, but they’ll have that.

The only people this seems to hurt are the people with way too many characters, of which they need all to have elites, for some reason. I’ve got 13 characters, about, one doesn’t exist yet, but will in a couple days. Of those, though, I only plan on getting elites for 4, one of which can definitely wait until much later to go through the process.

If for some reason I absolutely needed all 13 characters to be elites, that would be a problem, but that would still only be a problem for me for having such an unruly number of characters. It’s not ANet’s fault nor problem. If it takes x amount of time to get the thing, then it should absolutely take x times the number of characters you want to up to elites in order to do that. That’s completely reasonable.

Gating elite specs does not add value to the content. The new content was going to be present either way, and the people who wanted to do it were going to do it regardless. The only thing this has accomplished is that players now feel pressured to complete the content faster without getting to play through it with the elite spec that they want in the first place.

This does not add time and value to content that was going to be played regardless.

That’s if they want the elites on all their alts, for some one with 8-9+ alts, do they need to get the elite specs on all four guardians (insert any other random class) that they have on day one?

Kal Spiro.9745:

Black Box.9312:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Agemnon.4608:

Farming, time, and effort aren’t the problem, ludicrous amounts of it are.

I see this phrase popping up over and over. Could someone define for me very specifically what constitutes ludicrous? Cause I’ve been reading the same things you have and I have not seen anything that I could define as ludicrous. Some of this will take a fair amount of time, which is GOOD, because more time spent unlocking things means more time with the content, and not burning through it all in a week and then wondering why there isn’t more to do.

Even with that, I’m pretty certain some people will accomplish 100% Elites on day one. They may not accomplish anything else, but they’ll have that.

The only people this seems to hurt are the people with way too many characters, of which they need all to have elites, for some reason. I’ve got 13 characters, about, one doesn’t exist yet, but will in a couple days. Of those, though, I only plan on getting elites for 4, one of which can definitely wait until much later to go through the process.

If for some reason I absolutely needed all 13 characters to be elites, that would be a problem, but that would still only be a problem for me for having such an unruly number of characters. It’s not ANet’s fault nor problem. If it takes x amount of time to get the thing, then it should absolutely take x times the number of characters you want to up to elites in order to do that. That’s completely reasonable.

Gating elite specs does not add value to the content. The new content was going to be present either way, and the people who wanted to do it were going to do it regardless. The only thing this has accomplished is that players now feel pressured to complete the content faster without getting to play through it with the elite spec that they want in the first place.

This does not add time and value to content that was going to be played regardless.

That “pressure” is an illusion invented by yourself, not by what ANet did.

It’s absolutely not an illusion. Nobody will be doing any sort of group content that doesn’t involve the hero challenges, because why would they? The reward that they want isn’t there. It may not be directly caused by the decision to gate elite specs, but the beauty of cause and effect is that it does not have to be direct. There’s no denying that the pressure wouldn’t still be there if the elite specs weren’t gated.

Menadena.7482:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Should also point out that datamining from a month ago put us at 250 HP for the elite spec, which is more than the currently acquirable 214. Which already refutes Menadena’s statement.

That 250 was a huge part of why many thought the numbers were not to be trusted and were obviously too high.

Too high? Not at all; considering they essentially gutted the whole objective of hero points when they caved and made it so everyone got enough points for the core content just by leveling to 80. This at least gives us reason to go hunt them again, while also ensuring that those that have map completing still have reason to continue to gathering HP in the new zones.

Random.4691:

Once again, just because Anet slapped the word Elite onto it doesn’t make it Elite. They themselves have stated multiple times that it is not meant to over shadow the core specs it is simply an optional addition.

They have, however, also stated that the elite spec system is a part of their horizontal progression mechanics set moving forward. One of the primary goals of which is to give people something to work towards over time.
I’m not saying it’s set up as well as it could be, but I think expecting it to take a while to master the spec is pretty reasonable.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Agemnon.4608:

Farming, time, and effort aren’t the problem, ludicrous amounts of it are.

I see this phrase popping up over and over. Could someone define for me very specifically what constitutes ludicrous? Cause I’ve been reading the same things you have and I have not seen anything that I could define as ludicrous. Some of this will take a fair amount of time, which is GOOD, because more time spent unlocking things means more time with the content, and not burning through it all in a week and then wondering why there isn’t more to do.

Even with that, I’m pretty certain some people will accomplish 100% Elites on day one. They may not accomplish anything else, but they’ll have that.

The only people this seems to hurt are the people with way too many characters, of which they need all to have elites, for some reason. I’ve got 13 characters, about, one doesn’t exist yet, but will in a couple days. Of those, though, I only plan on getting elites for 4, one of which can definitely wait until much later to go through the process.

If for some reason I absolutely needed all 13 characters to be elites, that would be a problem, but that would still only be a problem for me for having such an unruly number of characters. It’s not ANet’s fault nor problem. If it takes x amount of time to get the thing, then it should absolutely take x times the number of characters you want to up to elites in order to do that. That’s completely reasonable.

WRONG. Veteran GW2 players who have spent most of their time on a main who played the game 3-6 months after lunch, left and came back in the past six months are also getting burned on this. Many of us used our hero points for crafting purposes back in 2012-2013. While we were gone ArenaNet changed a lot of things. We came back to find we have few hero points (still) but not only that some of our core specializations that we unlocked are now locked again and have to be re-opened with hero points. With hero challenges tapped out our only option is to take our character into HoT and work though 1/2 the game of HoT to be able to obtain the level of mastery needed to even get to those first 20 hero challenges and unlock the full trait line.

The answer is to roll a Revenant and enjoy it’s new play mechanics or to just stick with the PvP side of the game and pretend the new PvE maps don’t exist. Earn the hero points in WvW over time and once you have them all continue on with the HoT story from the beginning so you can experience it as your Elite Spec. This is how you compensate for their incredibly poor, unforgivable design which shows no respect to vertran players or to the casual players who have been using the gem store as a way to compensate for not being able to play as much as some of the hardcore crowd, but still enjoy the game on the same level. It’s very sad that they are doing away with that aspect of the game. There is no way to advance your hero points through gem store purchase so they are forcing all of us to grind content. This is a huge paradigm shift as given enough gold even the casual player committing only 8 hours a week could still buy a legendary (if they were going to force grind for anything they should have done it for legendariles not something that is a core play mechanic, see how kitten backwards this is?). The difference is someone who can only commit maybe 8 hours a week to play will end up spending months to be able to enjoy their Elite Spec in PvE. Whoever at ArenaNet made this decision made a very, very poor decisions.

Black Box.9312:

It’s absolutely not an illusion. Nobody will be doing any sort of group content that doesn’t involve the hero challenges, because why would they? The reward that they want isn’t there. It may not be directly caused by the decision to gate elite specs, but the beauty of cause and effect is that it does not have to be direct. There’s no denying that the pressure wouldn’t still be there if the elite specs weren’t gated.

Lol. My partner and I will be entering the expansion together at launch.
She is entering first on a character where she doesn’t even plan to play the elite spec… And I on one I am not in a hurry to unlock.
So yeah. We will be doing all of the things we come across. Perhaps don’t assume every player is you.

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

This is one of the most lucid and honest post in the entire thread.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Menadena.7482:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Should also point out that datamining from a month ago put us at 250 HP for the elite spec, which is more than the currently acquirable 214. Which already refutes Menadena’s statement.

That 250 was a huge part of why many thought the numbers were not to be trusted and were obviously too high.

Too high? Not at all; considering they essentially gutted the whole objective of hero points when they caved and made it so everyone got enough points for the core content just by leveling to 80. This at least gives us reason to go hunt them again, while also ensuring that those that have map completing still have reason to continue to gathering HP in the new zones.

I wouldn’t call that Caving, that was common sense. If a p[layer has spent X time and unlock everything it would be absolutely moronic to take that away and make them redo it. That is a terrible example, taking away progression is a game killer, people hate rollbacks what do you think would happen if they rolled back all your progression ? Only the foolish would remain.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Random.4691:

Once again, just because Anet slapped the word Elite onto it doesn’t make it Elite. They themselves have stated multiple times that it is not meant to over shadow the core specs it is simply an optional addition.

They have, however, also stated that the elite spec system is a part of their horizontal progression mechanics set moving forward. One of the primary goals of which is to give people something to work towards over time.
I’m not saying it’s set up as well as it could be, but I think expecting it to take a while to master the spec is pretty reasonable.

Mastering a build comes by playing with it, not by unlocking it. You don’t magically acquire the skills to excel with a new character in a fighting game just by unlocking him. You have to fight with him, learn how his moves and combos work, and figure out what works best in a given situation.

Nobody is going to master an elite spec as soon as they have access to all of the skills and traits. It makes no difference whether this point is reached instantaneously, or with a grind through specific content that some people might not be so inclined to do. Either way, they’re going to have to put time and effort into playing THE WHOLE THING in order to become skilled with THE WHOLE THING.

Black Box.9312:

Mastering a build comes by playing with it, not by unlocking it. You don’t magically acquire the skills to excel with a new character in a fighting game just by unlocking him. You have to fight with him, learn how his moves and combos work, and figure out what works best in a given situation.

Nobody is going to master an elite spec as soon as they have access to all of the skills and traits. It makes no difference whether this point is reached instantaneously, or with a grind through specific content that some people might not be so inclined to do. Either way, they’re going to have to put time and effort into playing THE WHOLE THING in order to become skilled with THE WHOLE THING.

That same argument could be made for any system where you have to play to unlock parts at a time. Like the entire levelling up process. And the same counter arguments are just as valid here.

fireflyry.7023:

I’m on the fence with this one but Anet does itself no favors with it’s BWE’s and using this as a selling point for pre-purchase. To me this is the catalyst of much of this complaint and I’m still of the opinion beta testing should be done by beta testers, not used as a sales pitch to customers.

I’ve played a fair few games where at the starting level your a fully kitted out uber-beast of death slaying everything in sight in some huge awe-inspiring battle with all skills unlocked and all weapons blazing full bore. Wahoo this game is friggin amazing!!!

end flashback/dream sequence

You wake up at level one naked holding a wet noodle realizing it will be a LONG time before you feel that way again.

From what I can garner this is exactly what has happened here with giving players everything for nothing to play with, then taking it away. Sure might work ok in an offline RPG but in this genre it just seems to kitten a lot of people off.

It is the same reason (although partly in reverse) of why I skipped most of the BWE content. I wanted to be surprised by the new stuff and I knew I would be getting a good chunk of it after paying $100 for the kittening thing. Not only would I be seeing all the content, but it would be ready for prime time. Now I wish I had done as much of the beta events as I could because I will not see the things I had a taste of for a VERY long time. Especially on all my characters. Oh well, at least I get to play with the revenant specs.

Like someone else said earlier, there is not a match between what new specs I was looking forward to the most with what existing specs I like. In fact, the new spec I like the most is on a spec I loathe and hoped it would reinvigorate the profession. What is the point of my first HOT experience being with a profession I can not stand? I would think they would want people to have as good an impression of the jungle as possible.

I wouldn’t mind “progressively” unlocking the elite spec on one of my characters, but doing the same grind over and over on all my alts? How did they overlook this, lol.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Lol. My partner and I will be entering the expansion together at launch.
She is entering first on a character where she doesn’t even plan to play the elite spec… And I on one I am not in a hurry to unlock.
So yeah. We will be doing all of the things we come across. Perhaps don’t assume every player is you.

That’s kittening fantastic. You know what’s even more kittening fantastic though? The fact that you and everyone else could do this very same thing even if elite specs were available to people immediately.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

That same argument could be made for any system where you have to play to unlock parts at a time. Like the entire levelling up process. And the same counter arguments are just as valid here.

Remember the part where I explained why this is not the same as leveling up from 1 to 80? No? You didn’t read that? Okay, I’ll put it here so that it’s easier for you:

Black Box.9312:

Because my characters are already at level 80, which is still the maximum level, and I would kinda rather not have the efforts that I made completing the overworld challenges for the base game go almost entirely to waste. It would be one thing if unlocking the elite spec was simply a natural progression that happened just through playing the game, but instead we have to specifically rush through hero challenges in the jungle to get what we want. This makes it absolutely nothing like what players go through by simply leveling their character from 1 to 80.

This is the exact reason why people were in such outcry when Anet made their original proposal that hero challenges would be required to max out a character, which they then changed because hey, maybe it actually makes more sense to not do that.

Burn.5401:

I wouldn’t mind “progressively” unlocking the elite spec on one of my characters, but doing the same grind over and over on all my alts? How did they overlook this, lol.

your the ones that made the alts, they should take up a lot of time and effort imo

Black Box.9312:

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Lol. My partner and I will be entering the expansion together at launch.
She is entering first on a character where she doesn’t even plan to play the elite spec… And I on one I am not in a hurry to unlock.
So yeah. We will be doing all of the things we come across. Perhaps don’t assume every player is you.

That’s kittening fantastic. You know what’s even more kittening fantastic though? The fact that you and everyone else could do this very same thing even if elite specs were available to people immediately.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

That same argument could be made for any system where you have to play to unlock parts at a time. Like the entire levelling up process. And the same counter arguments are just as valid here.

Remember the part where I explained why this is not the same as leveling up from 1 to 80? No? You didn’t read that? Okay, I’ll put it here so that it’s easier for you:

Black Box.9312:

Because my characters are already at level 80, which is still the maximum level, and I would kinda rather not have the efforts that I made completing the overworld challenges for the base game go almost entirely to waste. It would be one thing if unlocking the elite spec was simply a natural progression that happened just through playing the game, but instead we have to specifically rush through hero challenges in the jungle to get what we want. This makes it absolutely nothing like what players go through by simply leveling their character from 1 to 80.

This is the exact reason why people were in such outcry when Anet made their original proposal that hero challenges would be required to max out a character, which they then changed because hey, maybe it actually makes more sense to not do that.

Would it be easier to accept a level cap increase then? Anet could have easily done that instead, make you earn your way up to a max level of 90, and gain HP doing so.

Burn.5401:

I wouldn’t mind “progressively” unlocking the elite spec on one of my characters, but doing the same grind over and over on all my alts? How did they overlook this, lol.

That because on a alt, it be much easier, mastery unlock will do it. There also the fact we don’t know what needs to be done, so calling it a grind or not is kinda hard to say too.

Random.4691:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Menadena.7482:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Should also point out that datamining from a month ago put us at 250 HP for the elite spec, which is more than the currently acquirable 214. Which already refutes Menadena’s statement.

That 250 was a huge part of why many thought the numbers were not to be trusted and were obviously too high.

Too high? Not at all; considering they essentially gutted the whole objective of hero points when they caved and made it so everyone got enough points for the core content just by leveling to 80. This at least gives us reason to go hunt them again, while also ensuring that those that have map completing still have reason to continue to gathering HP in the new zones.

I wouldn’t call that Caving, that was common sense. If a p[layer has spent X time and unlock everything it would be absolutely moronic to take that away and make them redo it. That is a terrible example, taking away progression is a game killer, people hate rollbacks what do you think would happen if they rolled back all your progression ? Only the foolish would remain.

It was caving, they took the easy route and simply made it so being lvl 80 was enough. I get what you’re saying about not taking things away, but there were better options than completely gutting the hero point system. The primary issues coming from people that either didn’t do the pve content, or play wvw as their dedicated mode. The latter is being addressed with HoT – being able to use ranks and badges to purchase the challenges.

Black Box.9312:

PopeUrban.2578:

Black Box.9312:

PopeUrban.2578:

The people complaining about this are literally complaining that character progression systems scale linearly relative to the number of characters you want to progress.

Next you’ll be asking for waypoints to be account unlocks.

Even with your assumption that everyone is only worried about having to grind alts aside (Protip: That’s not the only reason people are unhappy about this), many people have already progressed their characters. Not everyone enjoys being told that the work that they did amounts to nothing.

People who want more “progression” can feel free to make a new character and start over. The rest of us would just like to be able to complete the new content with the elite spec of our choice fully fleshed out from the start. I’m not very satisfied with the thought of finally fully unlocking the Herald, only to realize that after rushing through the content and not having any fun that there’s none of it left to complete with my fancy new e-spec.

Elite specs were, from the very first reveal always advertised as anet’s new method of ongoing character progression

Not a thing they hand you as soon as it hits live, but progression That is used as the way to add new character build options.

The breakup of skill points and miyani currency was done specifically for this reason, just like the specialization system was done specifically for this reason. making hero points a limited commodity and converting all excess skill points from the old system was also done specifically for this reason. The whole game was redesigned around this progression system months ago, alongside very detailed blog posts as to why.

They said this a whole lot during the trait update, the reveal of elite specs as a system, and continually during all the “hoT is really about designing expandable systems we will continue to use in the future.”

Again, they specifically stated progression is a thing they want to be ongoing but that they want to do it without a vertical gear treadmill

What part of any of the information we’ve had over the past year gave you the idea that elite specs weren’t designed from the ground up as a progression system?

It’s literally the GW2 version of adding new skill trainers and secondary class options. They’re major feature updates, intended to give characters additional horizontal avenues of progression beyond the previous limitations.

I really, for the life of me, don’t understand what people are so up in arms about.

It’s almost as if you expected to be at the end of expansion character progression the day the expansion released. That was never advertised or even implied. How everyone got it in their heads in the first place that they’d be running around in full on elite specs outside of sPvP is beyond me. It’s not how the game has ever worked, or has even ever been advertised as an intent

They intend that you complete new content to access new character build options

And when the next elite spec is released, you can bet it will come alongside new PvE maps and new WvW angry letters corresponding to those maps. It is literally half of the content of all open world maps moving forward by design because it was the only part of world completion that was meaningful aside from getting achievements in the first place

The other half of the system is masteries, and masteries are the account end of that progression system. This is the character end. The game is full of complimentary systems like these, generally limiting things useful across all characters as account systems (bank tabs, crafting, etc.) so that you don’t end up doing the same unlocks on wildly different characters, and things useful only on a given character (bag space, profession skill unlocks, gear) as character systems. In general the account unlocks help facilitate faster progress through character systems. The relationship of masteries to elite specs is no different.

Source? As far as I’ve read into, masteries were the only source of “progression” that we’d be getting in HoT. If they had said anything about elite specs requiring a grind that far exceeds anything possible in the base game, then people would have voiced their outcry much sooner and would not have bothered themselves to rigorously complete the map on as many characters as they possibly can for the exact reason of avoiding the extra grind now so that they can enjoy the new content the way that they want to.

Someone else in this thread brought up a great point regarding the artificial inflation of hero points as well: What happens when the next expansion and round of elite specs is released? Will each elite spec cost 4,000 hero points, with each challenge in the new zones being worth 100 points each? That’s a great way to ensure that nobody will ever be ahead of the curve, but it’s also a great way to ensure that nobody will care about any previous content once new stuff is released. It really ends up with an effect no different than if straight-up vertical progression were implemented in this game. The only difference is that instead of inferior skills with lower damage numbers, we have inferior content with devalued progression points that nobody will ever want to touch again because the new stuff has literally 10 times more of a reward for what will likely amount to roughly the same amount of effort.

Anet is setting a horrendous precedent with this. People who wanted to grind their way through HoT for the new elite specs could have freely done so by their own will. With the way they’re going about it now, however, we’re basically being told that any of our previous work amounts to nothing, and that there’s no reason to ever touch the base game content beyond the bare minimum. Why would you ever want to do map completion anymore, when you can achieve better results with 10% of the time and effort required in the jungle?

This is a horrendous design choice, and is a textbook example of exactly what not to do when designing an expansion for a game. People are going to rush through the new challenges while avoiding anything else, leaving any sort of extra group content to languish. Launch is now going to be an absolute mess, because they’ve literally devalued anything that isn’t a jungle challenge by a factor of 10.

They have been posting this stuff in blogs for months dude.

They’re not devaluing existing content. They’re setting a precedent for elite specs as relevant to content

An elite spec cost 400 hero points. This is a hard number we know now. This is an inherant part of that system. HoT challenges grant 10 because they wanted to ensure people could actually play nothing but HoT to gain them.

Of course it isn’t designed to allow you to entirely skip progression in new maps. That would be ridiculous. People would literally be saying “why would I waste my time doing hero challenges that don’t give me anything?” and the thread would be just as long and angst ridden as this one.

In stead they built a system in which mastering all of the optional core points means you can skip half of the new ones. Moving forward, you’ll likely see that system continue. You will never have enough hero points to instantly unlock an elite spec, but you’ll always have options in terms of how much of the content you want to do.

Like core world completion because it’s easy and there are more zones? Fantastic! That means you can skip half of the HoT challenges.

Don’t like the first elite spec? FANTASTIC save your ero points for the next one.

Making a comparison between the value of core content and HoT in terms of character progression is simply flawed thinking. Core content is intentionally unchanged, it is intentionally easier, and it is intentionally paced for leveling first and world completion as a secondary goal. HoT, and all content going forward is specifically built, progression wise, around the elite spec system.

Core specs aren’t considered optional. They’re considered “mastering your core class”

Elite specs, however, are optional and exclusive to one another

If you’re mad about devaluing old content, why aren’t you mad that taking an elite spec makes you drop a trait line? Why aren’t you mad every time they release another stat set for gear? Will you be mad when the next elite spec releases and you have to choose between them?

Having ten point challenges do nothing to devalue old content. You need to be 80 to get in to the jungle. If you’re 80, you have your core specs completed. now you can choose to do a lot of simple challenges, a lesser number of harder ones, or a mixture between the two. The entire system is designed so that the core content retains value by making sure all those extra hero point actually do something for you character besides being traded to miyani.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Black Box.9312:

It’s absolutely not an illusion. Nobody will be doing any sort of group content that doesn’t involve the hero challenges, because why would they? The reward that they want isn’t there. It may not be directly caused by the decision to gate elite specs, but the beauty of cause and effect is that it does not have to be direct. There’s no denying that the pressure wouldn’t still be there if the elite specs weren’t gated.

Lol. My partner and I will be entering the expansion together at launch.
She is entering first on a character where she doesn’t even plan to play the elite spec… And I on one I am not in a hurry to unlock.
So yeah. We will be doing all of the things we come across. Perhaps don’t assume every player is you.

Yet you will be running into people, or rather they will be running past you, to do the minimum that they have to. This in turn will scale events that they may have no intention of touching, moreso than it already would. I personally think the Hero Point Trains are going to run into serious roadblocks in the form of Masteries, though, so in that respect they will have to participate in events. However… this still pushes people to find optimal times to do things, so they can get elite specs as fast as possible. Would some have done this anyways? Of course. But why should even more be pushed into doing so? I’m concerned about the inevitable collision of those that want to enjoy it, and those rushing to finish things as fast as possible. So much that, I think a number of us might very well avoid HoT areas for a bit.

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Black Box.9312:

It’s absolutely not an illusion. Nobody will be doing any sort of group content that doesn’t involve the hero challenges, because why would they? The reward that they want isn’t there. It may not be directly caused by the decision to gate elite specs, but the beauty of cause and effect is that it does not have to be direct. There’s no denying that the pressure wouldn’t still be there if the elite specs weren’t gated.

Lol. My partner and I will be entering the expansion together at launch.
She is entering first on a character where she doesn’t even plan to play the elite spec… And I on one I am not in a hurry to unlock.
So yeah. We will be doing all of the things we come across. Perhaps don’t assume every player is you.

Yet you will be running into people, or rather they will be running past you, to do the minimum that they have to. This in turn will scale events that they may have no intention of touching, moreso than it already would. I personally think the Hero Point Trains are going to run into serious roadblocks in the form of Masteries, though, so in that respect they will have to participate in events. However… this still pushes people to find optimal times to do things, so they can get elite specs as fast as possible. Would some have done this anyways? Of course. But why should even more be pushed into doing so? I’m concerned about the inevitable collision of those that want to enjoy it, and those rushing to finish things as fast as possible. So much that, I think a number of us might very well avoid HoT areas for a bit.

How is this any different than how the open world works already?

People are always running past one another to find the fastest route to whatever it is they’re after in the zone. People run past events to gather, or to get to personal story instnaces, or waypoints, or pois, or vistas, or whatever it is they happen to be personally after.

I don’t see how anything has changed.

PopeUrban.2578:

They have been posting this stuff in blogs for months dude.

They’re not devaluing existing content. They’re setting a precedent for elite specs as relevant to content

An elite spec cost 400 hero points. This is a hard number we know now. This is an inherant part of that system. HoT challenges grant 10 because they wanted to ensure people could actually play nothing but HoT to gain them.

Of course it isn’t designed to allow you to entirely skip progression in new maps. That would be ridiculous. People would literally be saying “why would I waste my time doing hero challenges that don’t give me anything?” and the thread would be just as long and angst ridden as this one.

In stead they built a system in which mastering all of the optional core points means you can skip half of the new ones. Moving forward, you’ll likely see that system continue. You will never have enough hero points to instantly unlock an elite spec, but you’ll always have options in terms of how much of the content you want to do.

Like core world completion because it’s easy and there are more zones? Fantastic! That means you can skip half of the HoT challenges.

Don’t like the first elite spec? FANTASTIC save your ero points for the next one.

Making a comparison between the value of core content and HoT in terms of character progression is simply flawed thinking. Core content is intentionally unchanged, it is intentionally easier, and it is intentionally paced for leveling first and world completion as a secondary goal. HoT, and all content going forward is specifically built, progression wise, around the elite spec system.

Core specs aren’t considered optional. They’re considered “mastering your core class”

Elite specs, however, are optional and exclusive to one another

If you’re mad about devaluing old content, why aren’t you mad that taking an elite spec makes you drop a trait line? Why aren’t you mad every time they release another stat set for gear? Will you be mad when the next elite spec releases and you have to choose between them?

Having ten point challenges do nothing to devalue old content. You need to be 80 to get in to the jungle. If you’re 80, you have your core specs completed. now you can choose to do a lot of simple challenges, a lesser number of harder ones, or a mixture between the two. The entire system is designed so that the core content retains value by making sure all those extra hero point actually do something for you character besides being traded to miyani.

A HoT hero challenge is worth 10 points. A base-game hero challenge is worth 1 point. For anyone who hasn’t already completed the existing challenges, they serve absolutely no purpose. Why waste your time doing things for 1 point, when you can just go to the jungle and do things for 10 points? “Devaluing” doesn’t get any more black and white than that.

Black Box.9312:

This is the exact reason why people were in such outcry when Anet made their original proposal that hero challenges would be required to max out a character, which they then changed because hey, maybe it actually makes more sense to not do that.

Except that, as other people have pointed out, you don’t need to rush those points. Playing through the maps ordinarily will likely get you what you need.
Yes the little number next to your character doesn’t increase, but that’s the point of turning the progression horizontal. From here it’s all about unlocking new options, getting stuff you might want because you want it, not because you need the increase to become more powerful. Horizontal levelling is just a form of progression, so horizontal progression is basically a form of levelling.
You also have to get specific points around the place to be able to progress gliding, you even have to do that in the new maps. Elite specs are basically the same, except that once unlocked you can use them everywhere. Heck, I was half expecting a mastery to be required to unlock the elite specs, at least this way you can unlock masteries and elite specs at the same time.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Black Box.9312:

This is the exact reason why people were in such outcry when Anet made their original proposal that hero challenges would be required to max out a character, which they then changed because hey, maybe it actually makes more sense to not do that.

Except that, as other people have pointed out, you don’t need to rush those points. Playing through the maps ordinarily will likely get you what you need.
Yes the little number next to your character doesn’t increase, but that’s the point of turning the progression horizontal. From here it’s all about unlocking new options, getting stuff you might want because you want it, not because you need the increase to become more powerful. Horizontal levelling is just a form of progression, so horizontal progression is basically a form of levelling.
You also have to get specific points around the place to be able to progress gliding, you even have to do that in the new maps. Elite specs are basically the same, except that once unlocked you can use them everywhere. Heck, I was half expecting a mastery to be required to unlock the elite specs, at least this way you can unlock masteries and elite specs at the same time.

You don’t need to rush, so what do you care if it is obtained easily ? If you don’t want to rush, don’t. Do you need Anet to hold your hand and tell you to slow down ?

Black Box.9312:

PopeUrban.2578:

They have been posting this stuff in blogs for months dude.

They’re not devaluing existing content. They’re setting a precedent for elite specs as relevant to content

An elite spec cost 400 hero points. This is a hard number we know now. This is an inherant part of that system. HoT challenges grant 10 because they wanted to ensure people could actually play nothing but HoT to gain them.

Of course it isn’t designed to allow you to entirely skip progression in new maps. That would be ridiculous. People would literally be saying “why would I waste my time doing hero challenges that don’t give me anything?” and the thread would be just as long and angst ridden as this one.

In stead they built a system in which mastering all of the optional core points means you can skip half of the new ones. Moving forward, you’ll likely see that system continue. You will never have enough hero points to instantly unlock an elite spec, but you’ll always have options in terms of how much of the content you want to do.

Like core world completion because it’s easy and there are more zones? Fantastic! That means you can skip half of the HoT challenges.

Don’t like the first elite spec? FANTASTIC save your ero points for the next one.

Making a comparison between the value of core content and HoT in terms of character progression is simply flawed thinking. Core content is intentionally unchanged, it is intentionally easier, and it is intentionally paced for leveling first and world completion as a secondary goal. HoT, and all content going forward is specifically built, progression wise, around the elite spec system.

Core specs aren’t considered optional. They’re considered “mastering your core class”

Elite specs, however, are optional and exclusive to one another

If you’re mad about devaluing old content, why aren’t you mad that taking an elite spec makes you drop a trait line? Why aren’t you mad every time they release another stat set for gear? Will you be mad when the next elite spec releases and you have to choose between them?

Having ten point challenges do nothing to devalue old content. You need to be 80 to get in to the jungle. If you’re 80, you have your core specs completed. now you can choose to do a lot of simple challenges, a lesser number of harder ones, or a mixture between the two. The entire system is designed so that the core content retains value by making sure all those extra hero point actually do something for you character besides being traded to miyani.

A HoT hero challenge is worth 10 points. A base-game hero challenge is worth 1 point. For anyone who hasn’t already completed the existing challenges, they serve absolutely no purpose. Why waste your time doing things for 1 point, when you can just go to the jungle and do things for 10 points? “Devaluing” doesn’t get any more black and white than that.

Again, because those points never existed primarily for progression purposes in the first place

Again

Core hero challenges are explicitly designed as optional objectives,supplemental to leveling

HoT hero challenges are explicitly designed as required objectives, to completely replace skill gains through leveling with skill gains through challenge completion

They have two different values for exactly this reason.

They’re not devalued, they were already of less value in the first place

BobbyT.7192:

Burn.5401:

I wouldn’t mind “progressively” unlocking the elite spec on one of my characters, but doing the same grind over and over on all my alts? How did they overlook this, lol.

your the ones that made the alts, they should take up a lot of time and effort imo

Yeah but the game openly embraced and encouraged Altoholics, they have always been welcomed by the designers with specific game mechanics to encourage this play style of mass re-rolling and character slot buying. Now they are being retroactively punished for spreading their time, now the most important resource in the game, and in many cases RL gold too thinly over to many toons.

The requirements to keep this play style relevant and enjoyable just went way up.

I find it hard to focus on more than 2-3 toons in any game but I get why the Alties are grumpy.

Random.4691:

Kal Spiro.9745:

Random.4691:

There is more then enough content (if they get their crap together and release it .. cough raids cough) to keep everyone busy without time gating the Elites. We have Raids, Guild Halls, New Maps (for all modes), Fractals, Legendaries, Adventures, Events, Masteries, and I’m sure I’ve missed a few. I don’t see how time gating the Elites is productive, how does it affect anyone if you do it as a Necro or a Reaper for example. If they wanted to do something for elites they should have done a quest line of some sort.

The bottom line is, it hurts nothing to have elites playable, the rest of the content is still the same regardless of which class/spec you are using. There is simply no need and all this has done is divide the community and ticked off a lot of players. This is suppose to be an exciting time for GW2 and instead they have managed to turn it into a witch hunt.

Elites aren’t time gated. If you can do the content in one day then you can have elites in one day. Time gating means that you cannot physically complete the content in less than a predefined period because you can only earn specific amounts toward it ever x period of time.

The need is, that’s how they wanted to do it. I would have preferred a different system too. Not the one everyone else seems to want, but still different than we got. But this is what we got, and there isn’t actually anything wrong with it, it’s just one way to do it. It isn’t wrong, it’s just one way.

This should be an exciting time, and for most of us it is. But ANet didn’t start a witch hunt. That “privilege” lays soully on the player base who deluded themselves into thinking they could just have anything without putting any effort into it. That has never been ANet’s style.

Actually that is your definition of time gating, imo time gating is anything that requires you to put in an excessive/lengthy amount of time. If you would have read my full post or any of my other posts for that matter you would have noted I’m not asking it to be handed to us with no strings attached. I would be ok with a small story line quest to unlock it, I would be ok with a realistic amount of HP, I’m not ok with either being forced into the jungle for the quickest method which still won’t be quick, I’m not ok with that slap in the face of an option for WvW players that is completely unrealistic.

Once again, just because Anet slapped the word Elite onto it doesn’t make it Elite. They themselves have stated multiple times that it is not meant to over shadow the core specs it is simply an optional addition.

No, that’s what a time gate is. You can make up whatever definition you want for whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it so.

All the arguments have been heard and rehashed for many pages now. He said, she said, I disagree, you disagree, blah blah blah. There are clearly 2 sides of the camp and nobody’s going to change anybody’s minds here. People have their reasons for liking this design, just as people have very good reasons for not liking this design. Time for Anet to step in and comment again in my opinion.

PopeUrban.2578:

Black Box.9312:

PopeUrban.2578:

They have been posting this stuff in blogs for months dude.

They’re not devaluing existing content. They’re setting a precedent for elite specs as relevant to content

An elite spec cost 400 hero points. This is a hard number we know now. This is an inherant part of that system. HoT challenges grant 10 because they wanted to ensure people could actually play nothing but HoT to gain them.

Of course it isn’t designed to allow you to entirely skip progression in new maps. That would be ridiculous. People would literally be saying “why would I waste my time doing hero challenges that don’t give me anything?” and the thread would be just as long and angst ridden as this one.

In stead they built a system in which mastering all of the optional core points means you can skip half of the new ones. Moving forward, you’ll likely see that system continue. You will never have enough hero points to instantly unlock an elite spec, but you’ll always have options in terms of how much of the content you want to do.

Like core world completion because it’s easy and there are more zones? Fantastic! That means you can skip half of the HoT challenges.

Don’t like the first elite spec? FANTASTIC save your ero points for the next one.

Making a comparison between the value of core content and HoT in terms of character progression is simply flawed thinking. Core content is intentionally unchanged, it is intentionally easier, and it is intentionally paced for leveling first and world completion as a secondary goal. HoT, and all content going forward is specifically built, progression wise, around the elite spec system.

Core specs aren’t considered optional. They’re considered “mastering your core class”

Elite specs, however, are optional and exclusive to one another

If you’re mad about devaluing old content, why aren’t you mad that taking an elite spec makes you drop a trait line? Why aren’t you mad every time they release another stat set for gear? Will you be mad when the next elite spec releases and you have to choose between them?

Having ten point challenges do nothing to devalue old content. You need to be 80 to get in to the jungle. If you’re 80, you have your core specs completed. now you can choose to do a lot of simple challenges, a lesser number of harder ones, or a mixture between the two. The entire system is designed so that the core content retains value by making sure all those extra hero point actually do something for you character besides being traded to miyani.

A HoT hero challenge is worth 10 points. A base-game hero challenge is worth 1 point. For anyone who hasn’t already completed the existing challenges, they serve absolutely no purpose. Why waste your time doing things for 1 point, when you can just go to the jungle and do things for 10 points? “Devaluing” doesn’t get any more black and white than that.

Again, because those points never existed primarily for progression purposes in the first place

Again

Core hero challenges are explicitly designed as optional objectives,supplemental to leveling

HoT hero challenges are explicitly designed as required objectives, to completely replace skill gains through leveling with skill gains through challenge completion

They have two different values for exactly this reason.

They’re not devalued, they were already of less value in the first place

Please explain, given your above argument, how exactly this is different from a gear treadmill dungeon series that requires a set of gear from one dungeon in order to complete the next, and is purely sequenced from a “first” dungeon to a “last” dungeon.

PopeUrban.2578:

Lunacy Solacio.6514:

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Black Box.9312:

It’s absolutely not an illusion. Nobody will be doing any sort of group content that doesn’t involve the hero challenges, because why would they? The reward that they want isn’t there. It may not be directly caused by the decision to gate elite specs, but the beauty of cause and effect is that it does not have to be direct. There’s no denying that the pressure wouldn’t still be there if the elite specs weren’t gated.

Lol. My partner and I will be entering the expansion together at launch.
She is entering first on a character where she doesn’t even plan to play the elite spec… And I on one I am not in a hurry to unlock.
So yeah. We will be doing all of the things we come across. Perhaps don’t assume every player is you.

Yet you will be running into people, or rather they will be running past you, to do the minimum that they have to. This in turn will scale events that they may have no intention of touching, moreso than it already would. I personally think the Hero Point Trains are going to run into serious roadblocks in the form of Masteries, though, so in that respect they will have to participate in events. However… this still pushes people to find optimal times to do things, so they can get elite specs as fast as possible. Would some have done this anyways? Of course. But why should even more be pushed into doing so? I’m concerned about the inevitable collision of those that want to enjoy it, and those rushing to finish things as fast as possible. So much that, I think a number of us might very well avoid HoT areas for a bit.

How is this any different than how the open world works already?

People are always running past one another to find the fastest route to whatever it is they’re after in the zone. People run past events to gather, or to get to personal story instnaces, or waypoints, or pois, or vistas, or whatever it is they happen to be personally after.

I don’t see how anything has changed.

It’s forcing people to do it, just to unlock elite specs. Which is the crux of the entire thing. Being forced. Seems this is the intended gameplay now so that makes it ok to rush the new content?