Guild Wars 2

Sorean.5379:

You only need 60 points to play the Specialization,is that too much ?

You need 400. 60 merely unlocks the specialization, not the traits and whatnot.

sirjarros.4107:

ColinJohanson.2394:

It’s 400 points total to unlock everything in an elite spec training line – I just can’t remember off hand how many points folks have currently if they have done all the existing ones, but it’s right around 200. The rest you’ll need to earn in jungle to unlock the deeper skills/traits/etc. in the training line.

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

While I am 100% on board with having to earn, train and unlock our elite specs, I think that 400 hero points is horribly excessive. Especially for WvW only players. (Note: I love PvX and have done world completion 3 times, but play mostly in WvW).

Many WvW purists hate PvE. They hate running around Tyria doing something that does not contribute to the weekly matchup. Which means, they are likely to have NO excess hero points because they have no map completion. So they will need to drum up the 400 points using the new WvW system.

Assuming the Notarized Scrolls of Maguuma Heroics give 10 hero points (which still needs to be confirmed) they would need 40 of these scrolls. At 5 ranks per scroll, that’s 200 ranks in WvW.

(Note: there still remains the unanswered question of being retroactively rewarded proofs in WvW based on current rank — something that Anet should seriously consider since that would be the new WvW hero point system equivalent and having finished world completion!!)

Now, 200 ranks is no small feat. Heck it took me nearly 2 months to go from 1100 to 1320, because I am on a lower tier server, mostly roam with my guild havoc squad and very rarely get in large scale zerg fights or take keeps, which generate the most WxP.

200 ranks will take a heck of a lot longer than finding 40 hero challenges in the jungle. I bet many PvE/PvX players will find their full 20-40 either on launch day or by the end of the 1st weekend.

I highly doubt anyone in this entire game has earned 100 ranks in one weekend of WvW. Even with a birthday booster one. If they have, they spent every waking moment doing it, hard core via EotM or zerg-festing.

And with the new borderlands map being so much bigger and taking longer to get across, we’re possibly looking at earning less WxP than the smaller alpine map has provided, because it takes longer to get somewhere to cap something to earn the WxP.

And what if you’re on a server where your role is to scout and defend? You’re getting even less WxP because defending rewards less than attacking. Which draws the time line out even further.

Then throw in the fact that MANY WvW players hate leveling and will use Tomes to level their Revenants. Meaning that WvW players who want to be a herald on launch day won’t be able to because they’ll have to wait to earn 30 ranks to unlock the elite line, which can easily take a week or more for some players, depending on play styles and amount of play time.

Suddenly WvW players are looking at several weeks to a month just to fully train their elite spec, when PvE purists will have it done in a matter of days. Simply because of their preferences for certain content types.

To make matters worse, if my assumption about scrolls is incorrect — if they give less than 10 hero points — then this timeline is extended even further.

I predict that if this is not remedied immediately, we’ll find WvW players are going to forget about their 1st week’s matchups and storm EotM armed with boosters to karma/rank train just to fully train their elite specs as fast as possible. That is NOT supportive of the new borderlands map or any of the great WvW changes coming. And I doubt this is what Anet is intending.

TL;DR: It takes much more effort and time to get 5 ranks in WvW than it does to find one Maguuma Jungle Hero Challenge. PvX friendly players will have their elite specs fully trained by Sunday. Meanwhile WvW only players will still be working on it for days, if not weeks to come and, will once again, feel pressured to play content they have no interest in, just to get their elite spec. This disparity is way out of balance and horribly unfair.

Thanks for listening!

This post is far back in the pages and I think it needs more attention. This is exactly how I feel why the design is of poor taste or at least really does not transpire much thought put into it, especially from a WvW player point of view.

People telling WvW players they will just have to rank up playing the content they like to do simply do not understand what it is like to play WvW as your main game mode.
PvErs are getting their elite specs before WvW players just because. It is so arbitrary, it needs to be looked at.

On top of that, it has been a focus on Anet to make the game more alt friendly and this is working directly against it. I do not understand why they are having a weird shift like this for HoT.

It isn’t about not working to get the content, it’s about how it’s presented and how it’s failing on the foundation this game has been built on and directed towards. This is a pure grind that is not engaging for MANY (too many) of players. There are many arguments why elite specs shouldn’t be gated at all – which are on their own entirely different than the simple argument that some of us are trying to put forward: The design is flawed and not at all beneficial to the customer.

sharkswithlazers.7632:

Sorean.5379:

You only need 60 points to play the Specialization,is that too much ?

You need 400. 60 merely unlocks the specialization, not the traits and whatnot.

Not the full 400 to get all the traits and skills. There are cosmetics and runes that will be unlocked also.

So if I understand correctly every mastery challenge gives 10 Hero points. That means everyone with world completion has to get about 20 in the jungle to max core spec line.

and all unfortunate alts have to get 40 (presuming they heave no extra acquired beyond the 398 you get from hitting 80)

I don’t think this is actually to terrible. imo the skill point challenges were the best part of world completion. It shouldn’t take long to get that for your main. It might be a bit much if your an alt-holic, but content wise it’s very tiny amount that shouldn’t take to long if you focus it…

Unless… Mastery requirements…

Just a flesh wound.3589:

sharkswithlazers.7632:

Sorean.5379:

You only need 60 points to play the Specialization,is that too much ?

You need 400. 60 merely unlocks the specialization, not the traits and whatnot.

Not the full 400 to get all the traits and skills. There are cosmetics and runes that will be unlocked also.

This, so we don’t actually know how many to unlock all traits and utilities, which is why I said heralds will have it the worst, they can’t unlock 1 utility and replace the other two with something else.

Fist off, I want to say that I don’t specifically have a problem with the requirement to fully unlock the elites.

I do have a problem with how ANet’s handled the situation.

1. Timing. 3 days before launch was well past time for this news to be posted. Ok, the exact number of Hero Points needed may not have been nailed down, but surely the “you must unlock all of the core” was nailed down. Or that you’d need more than 214 hero points (max you can have on any character level 80 with 100% map completion in every map and the krait shard) to max out the track.

1a. This is further exacerbated because players had been posting their desires to play elites on day one

2. Location of update. A reply to a post in a thread. Not in it’s own thread (Handful of HoT Notes would have been a good spot). Not in a blog post. But in a thread.

3. Quantity of Hero Points needed. Given the number needed to max out the core specializations, people will have a negative reaction to seeing 400 hero points needed for maxing out the elite spec. And it’s likely their first impression. First impressions are powerful.

4. Lack of posting further details on the issue afterward (or acknowledging that some do have an issue with it). And there’s been plenty of time for the appropriate dev to have been alerted to the problem.

If 3 of the 4 had changed, there likely wouldn’t have been as big of a back lash.

Seera.5916:

Fist off, I want to say that I don’t specifically have a problem with the requirement to fully unlock the elites.

I do have a problem with how ANet’s handled the situation.

1. Timing. 3 days before launch was well past time for this news to be posted. Ok, the exact number of Hero Points needed may not have been nailed down, but surely the “you must unlock all of the core” was nailed down. Or that you’d need more than 214 hero points (max you can have on any character level 80 with 100% map completion in every map and the krait shard) to max out the track.

1a. This is further exacerbated because players had been posting their desires to play elites on day one

2. Location of update. A reply to a post in a thread. Not in it’s own thread (Handful of HoT Notes would have been a good spot). Not in a blog post. But in a thread.

3. Quantity of Hero Points needed. Given the number needed to max out the core specializations, people will have a negative reaction to seeing 400 hero points needed for maxing out the elite spec. And it’s likely their first impression. First impressions are powerful.

4. Lack of posting further details on the issue afterward (or acknowledging that some do have an issue with it). And there’s been plenty of time for the appropriate dev to have been alerted to the problem.

If 3 of the 4 had changed, there likely wouldn’t have been as big of a back lash.

They seem to like shooting themselves in the foot, I’ll give them that.

Obviously a lot of people did not pay attention…if you had paid attention you would have already known that you would have to play the new content to unlock your Elite Spec…find the information yourself, I already knew it and I’m not finding it for you!

Sorean.5379:

You only need 60 points to play the Specialization,is that too much ?

Hi Sorean.

About the question you posed…

For young whippersnappers who have young whippersnapper coordination and have been playing computer games since infancy…no, that is not too much.

If you are old enough to be a granny with terrabad hand eye coordination, then going into the HoT jungle for Hero Points is akin to going to Orr at level 2 to do the Winterknell Maze by oneself…in this case, yes, the 60 Heropoints is indeed too much.

It depends on who you are asking

PopeUrban.2578:

It’s a matter of taste really. You prefer to pretend your characters have accomplished things. I prefer that my characters actually accomplished things. You’re not wrong, I simply don’t share your viewpoint.

And, whom said my characters have not accomplished things? The issue is the redundancy as we, the real life human being, are the actual entity experiencing and accomplishing things. Now nothing prevents a player from doing content over again per character for their own personal experience. Though forcing players to do content over and over and over again is completely different. A design that will lead to repetitive and non engaging game play. For example, I’m betting the majority of character’s in game do not have map complete. Why is that, because the human being doesn’t want to do it again and again. Especially when it’s such a poor experience to do but, that’s a different conversation. Though most players I’ve come in contact with have expressed they did it once and never want to do it again. That’s why the game has to be designed around the human experience and not the pixels.

They told us on Oct 15th that to unlock the elite specs would require playing in the new areas (and therefore it wasn’t a automatic unlock). Truthfully I was expecting something much more grindy. Zero unlock and a several million mastery line type unlock system. So to hear I can have it mostly unlocked by PvE hero challenges and the rest in the new area meant it is far easier than I had been imagining it to be.

Oct 15th: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/its-the-final-countdown/
Our journey is nearly over—very soon, you will be gliding through the jungle canopy, battling to level 100 in fractals, building a guild hall with your friends, overcoming challenges in the jungle to unlock your elite specialization,

Does A-Net realize that the karma train in EotM is gonna be a HUGE thing? That’s the most efficient way for a WvW player to earn the hero points. I HATE EotM, but it’s better than PvE… so I’m gonna spend several MONTHS running in a karma train (to get the elite on all 19 toons) rather than fighting in WvW as I’d rather be doing.

To all of those that seem to be floored by this announcement…you just proved that the human race does not pay attention very well. I’ve known for a long time it would take HP to unlock the Elite Spec and you wouldn’t be able to get all of it right off the bat. What I refuse to do though is tell you where the information is at, find it for yourself…the only thing we didn’t know what the total number of HP needed, but I knew my ~200 existing on several character wasn’t going to be enough to unlock the entire Elite Spec!

Zaklex.6308:

To all of those that seem to be floored by this announcement…you just proved that the human race does not pay attention very well. I’ve known for a long time it would take HP to unlock the Elite Spec and you wouldn’t be able to get all of it right off the bat. What I refuse to do though is tell you where the information is at, find it for yourself…the only thing we didn’t know what the total number of HP needed, but I knew my ~200 existing on several character wasn’t going to be enough to unlock the entire Elite Spec!

Congratz, you just completely proved your own theory by not reading 99% of this thread lol. Wow just wow, open mouth insert foot.

Zaklex.6308:

To all of those that seem to be floored by this announcement…you just proved that the human race does not pay attention very well. I’ve known for a long time it would take HP to unlock the Elite Spec and you wouldn’t be able to get all of it right off the bat. What I refuse to do though is tell you where the information is at, find it for yourself…the only thing we didn’t know what the total number of HP needed, but I knew my ~200 existing on several character wasn’t going to be enough to unlock the entire Elite Spec!

We, the ignorant and illiterate masses, beseech thee, o Great Zaklex, to bestow upon us yet more morsels of thine overflowing wisdom. We thank thee in advance for thine patience with such simpletons as we.

Zaklex.6308:

To all of those that seem to be floored by this announcement…you just proved that the human race does not pay attention very well. I’ve known for a long time it would take HP to unlock the Elite Spec and you wouldn’t be able to get all of it right off the bat. What I refuse to do though is tell you where the information is at, find it for yourself…the only thing we didn’t know what the total number of HP needed, but I knew my ~200 existing on several character wasn’t going to be enough to unlock the entire Elite Spec!

And you just proved your own post.

Most of the posters have been upset by the amount of hero points needed. Not that they needed more hero points than are currently available in the game.

Zaklex.6308:

To all of those that seem to be floored by this announcement…you just proved that the human race does not pay attention very well. I’ve known for a long time it would take HP to unlock the Elite Spec and you wouldn’t be able to get all of it right off the bat. What I refuse to do though is tell you where the information is at, find it for yourself…the only thing we didn’t know what the total number of HP needed, but I knew my ~200 existing on several character wasn’t going to be enough to unlock the entire Elite Spec!

Until Colin’s post yesterday, we had no idea that the elite spec would require us to 100% unlock the base class before letting us touch the new toys.

I expected a huge hero point investment. That’s why I saved 100-220 points on my level 80s in anticipation of elite specs. What I did not expect was that I’d have to dump literally hundreds of points into traits and skills that I will never use just to get the ability to start spending points on the fun new thing I paid for.

It doesn’t make any sense, and it doesn’t fit the pre-existing philosophy of the game. An engineer doesn’t have to learn elixirs before he or she can learn turrets, but for some reason has to learn both elixirs and turrets (as well as everything else) before being able to learn how to use drones?

These elite specs were touted by the development staff as “alternatives, not direct upgrades” and yet their pricing and unlock structure fits exactly what an “upgrade” would constitute: Completely max out your class, then you can experiment with the so-called side-grade/optional playstyle; The “optional playstyle” requires you to first invest hundreds of points into stuff that you literally cannot even use all at once in a single build. It simply doesn’t make sense.

It’s made even more frustrating the way that “old world” hero challenges are completely invalidated since they are only worth 1/10th of the Jungle hero challenges, effectively funneling everyone that wants an elite spec into the new zone and trivializing the value of the old world content.

Basically, every single way this is set up reeks of “traditional linear theme park MMO expansion” where “increased level cap from 80 to 90” is replaced with “grind hero points in the new zones” and I thought Guild Wars 2 was supposed to be the different, special snowflake, not a grindy content funnel into the new parts of the map.

^ THIS. So much this. I’m simply amazed at how utterly hypocritical this unlock structure is given the original manifesto.

Daddar.5971:

^ THIS. So much this. I’m simply amazed at how utterly hypocritical this unlock structure is given the original manifesto.

ANET could at least be honest and clearly state that the manifesto is not guiding their work. I really hate it when companies aren’t direct with customers.

The design of HoT is not guided by the manifesto.

The design of HoT is directly contrary to the manifesto. It’s as if the original developers were killed off by the Grind Grinch.

And this reminds me why I did not preorder the game. I think I’ll wait a while and see how this gets resolved.

As a casual player, this pretty much kills the game for me.

What really concerns me though with HoT is there is now, ANOTHER controversy about the xPack. Why did they just not release all this information long time ago and not within 72hrs of launch?

Both sides are on pretty solid ground regarding this topic. The reality is that for some the enjoyment comes from exploring new content on a new profession(ish). Playing through that content on an old profession means less content to explore when they finally do unlock the spec.

For others an elite spec is something to work toward. A goal. A reason to play.

Both are right in their approach to enjoying new content and new specs. This is a situation where Anet was going to leave some people dissatisfied no matter what they did and so they erred on the side of addressing along standing complaint…something to earn in game.

FinalPatriot.8034:

And this reminds me why I did not preorder the game. I think I’ll wait a while and see how this gets resolved.

As a casual player, this pretty much kills the game for me.

What really concerns me though with HoT is there is now, ANOTHER controversy about the xPack. Why did they just not release all this information long time ago and not within 72hrs of launch?

Because they knew players would be kittened off and they didn’t want to take away from the hype

That something is called legendary weapons and armor. You shouldn’t have to grind in order to play as your chosen profession. If you want a grinding goal, co craft some legendary. Let the players unlock their flippin’ specs so they can USE THEM.

Daddar.5971:

Does A-Net realize that the karma train in EotM is gonna be a HUGE thing? That’s the most efficient way for a WvW player to earn the hero points. I HATE EotM, but it’s better than PvE… so I’m gonna spend several MONTHS running in a karma train (to get the elite on all 19 toons) rather than fighting in WvW as I’d rather be doing.

Of course they do, then they will just use that as an excuse to turn WvW into a EotM scenario because EotM was soooo popular during HoT launch.

Sad part is I can 100% see them doing this.

Pezz.4758:

please dont take this as rage or hate or anything but i gotta vent im a little ….meh.

So i main necro, followed the scrapper hype all through the info releases. After trying it on the beta weekend i was hooked. I had a partially leveled engy, so i finished it, grinded out all his skills, all his exotics, some ascended, crafting , bought skins went HAM.

now i find out, to even play the elite spec, i have to grind ANOTHER at least 170 points.

So doing the math, thats either basically doing map complete now in 3 days to find enough to unlock it. OR waiting till HoT, where they are 10 points each. BUT assuming 5-10 per map like currents maps, i will be half way through HoT open world content BEFORE even being able to use the spec properly.

Like i said im not raging but i cant lie, kinda killed the hype for release when i know its just going to be a grind to even START playing.

“Play how you want” ha, ya right.

I feel your pain and truly hate that they have made this decision. It is an attack on the casual player in GW2. Have only 4-8 hours to spend a week in-game? Your choice is grinding for those beefy 10 point hero challenges in HoT (which will require HoT map completion) or just enjoy playing through the game casually doing the story missions and getting to meet/unlock your first Elite spec sometime in 2016 after it’s old hat . It is designed to make you grind and want to be on 24/7 just like every other trash MMO out there. GW2 core game was above that and strived to be casual player friendly. Apparently that’s not as lucrative as appeasing a more hard core crowd.

If you are a casual player your best bet is to focus on WvW or PvP those two aspects aren’t any more or less casual friendly than they already were, actually PvP is probably more casual friendly thanks to the league system.

For PvE roll a Revenant and endure level 1-80 again (hopefully you’ll have one of those instant level 30 scrolls from a b-day gift and a boat load of tomes of knowledge packed away, if not it’s all good, you’ll just have to play though all the core game content again I’m sure level 80 won’t take long. You’ll get new mechanics of Revenant but you won’t have the new maps to play him on (your guild mates can describe the new maps to you on team speak, so you have that). Why are you being so greedy and wanting both new maps and new play mechanics right away for your $50? If ArenaNet did that how would they get you to spend money on boosters in the gem store? How would they pay for all the F2P accounts they are now hosting? You need to be a good GW2 citizen and understand the business model. _Hopefully you know I’m being sarcasitc, but truthfully I’ve made peace with it. After raging about it, I’ve accepted it. I’ve had a lot of fun for not much investment in this game. Their decision to make the expansion anti-casual friendly is their right and at least the PvP side of the game will have leagues. It’s not like I won’t be getting my moneys worth one way or another.

Nausicca.6038:

Since raising the level cap in GW2 wouldn’t make any sense like in other MMOs xpacs, Anet have decided to add new specs that we will be able to unlock ( level up) with HP.

Just consider HP as the new XP and elite spec the new level cap.

Some of us bought this game because it lacked treadmills.

Boy, were we wrong.

Daddar.5971:

Does A-Net realize that the karma train in EotM is gonna be a HUGE thing? That’s the most efficient way for a WvW player to earn the hero points. I HATE EotM, but it’s better than PvE… so I’m gonna spend several MONTHS running in a karma train (to get the elite on all 19 toons) rather than fighting in WvW as I’d rather be doing.

Any estimate on how long it’ll take to earn the necessary hero points for a single character’s elite spec? I haven’t run EotM in ages.

Swagger.1459:

FinalPatriot.8034:

And this reminds me why I did not preorder the game. I think I’ll wait a while and see how this gets resolved.

As a casual player, this pretty much kills the game for me.

What really concerns me though with HoT is there is now, ANOTHER controversy about the xPack. Why did they just not release all this information long time ago and not within 72hrs of launch?

Because they knew players would be kittened off and they didn’t want to take away from the hype

That’s the thing, if they had stated this info much earlier, there wouldn’t be as much issue with the amount needed. Players would have time to adjust expectations and have a reasonable amount of time to get max hero points on all characters they planned to get the elite on except revenant.

FinalPatriot.8034:

And this reminds me why I did not preorder the game. I think I’ll wait a while and see how this gets resolved.

As a casual player, this pretty much kills the game for me.

What really concerns me though with HoT is there is now, ANOTHER controversy about the xPack. Why did they just not release all this information long time ago and not within 72hrs of launch?

I just figure I will just play Halloween content but I have no idea what I will do when it is over. I have not been enthused about even logging in since we got the news. I thought HOT was going to be great but the closer it gets the more I am actually dreading it instead.

Another controversy? Do I even want to know what they said now?

It all depends on the commander and the zerg size. At its best, you could gain up to maybe 5 WvW levels per hour.

Seera.5916:

Swagger.1459:

FinalPatriot.8034:

And this reminds me why I did not preorder the game. I think I’ll wait a while and see how this gets resolved.

As a casual player, this pretty much kills the game for me.

What really concerns me though with HoT is there is now, ANOTHER controversy about the xPack. Why did they just not release all this information long time ago and not within 72hrs of launch?

Because they knew players would be kittened off and they didn’t want to take away from the hype

That’s the thing, if they had stated this info much earlier, there wouldn’t be as much issue with the amount needed. Players would have time to adjust expectations and have a reasonable amount of time to get max hero points on all characters they planned to get the elite on except revenant.

Eh I don’t think so for many players, because that still means slogging through maps over and over and over and over and over…

Maybe slightly less stress for wvwers if they were allowed to start buying these notarized scrolls 6 months ago.

Overall, I call foul and this hype train jumped on the dhuum tracks with this one. Just wait until the players who don’t visit the forums open up their character panel on launch day lol

I think 5 is stretching it, that would require the perfect storm, you know, all commanders on all sides agreeing to do the giant Karma train in unison. Realistically maybe 2 per hour so 100 hours divided by the amount of hours you spend in game daily = X days.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

/sigh

(Silver platter) here yah go. The whole game unlocked for you. Enjoy.

People keep repeating this like programmed drones…
specs are not content, they are the means to play it. It’s not that I don’t want to work for something, I don’t mind that, I just want my spec while doing it.

I want to play hot with a Chronomancer, not play hot and get a chronomancer at the end.

When Nightfall came out, did you get heroes automatically or did you have to play the new game to get them?
When Eye of the North came out, did you get PvE skills automatically or did you have to play the new expansion to get them?
When any of GW1’s games came out did you automatically have all skills – both normal and elites – unlocked?
When you start a new character on GW2 do you have all skills and specializations unlocked and accessible right away?
When you played Mass Effect games did you get all abilities unlocked and accessible right away?

Those are not content. Those are how you play the game. So according to you, they should all be free. Every skill, every ability, every gear should be free. Because “they are the means to play it.”

I’m “sorry” to say but unlocking more means to play a game is part of playing the game.

Every game with progression – which is just about every game ever – has this.

You do not start a Metroid game with the best armor, weapons, and all abilities. You do not start a DOOM game with all guns. You do not start Batman Arkham games with all abilities unlocked. You do not start an Assassin’s Creed game with all weapons and abilities. You do not start ANY game with everything unlocked.

People keep “repeating this like programmed drones” because that’s what it is – it’s asking to be handed an intregal part of the expansion on a silver platter.

You might as well be asking for the function of legendary armor to be given just because you bought the expansion.

Does this mean that their method of locking the elite spec is good? No. But should elite specializations just be automatically unlocked for purchasing HoT? Also no.

Lue.6538:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Grind is not “time consuming”. Grind is not “playing through the game’s content multiple times.”

Grind in the context of video games refers to the repetitious act of repeating the same singular activity over and over.

Doing 40 different hero challenges? Not grind.

Doing 40 different hero challenges on multiple characters? Not grind.

Doing the same singular hero challenge over and over? Grind.

Doing the same singular event in hopes of getting that RNG drop called Sam? Grind.

Please people, get your dictionaries out and know what the words you are using actually mean!

By this logic farming keys from the level 10 story isn’t a grind as it is done on different characters.

Not at all.

Farming keys is the same act – doing the chapter 1 personal story over and over for its reward. It doesn’t matter if you’re doing it on one character or multiple characters, you’re still doing the same singular act.

Now, if you were to do a different chapter then one could argue it isn’t grind, but I would disagree. It’s just a farm that has multiple possible routes. And yes, I would consider farming to be grinding – because they’re both acts of doing the same thing for the same reward.

In GW1, it’d be like farming ecto – there were many ways to do it, but ultimately you’re doing the same thing: go into Underworld, head to location specified in guide, kill all the things, leave Underworld, start from step 1.

Sirendor.1394:

In the context of a video game like GW2… making the game timeconsuming (but easy) is the same as making it grindy. The game is timeconsuming in the fact that it requires you to repeat easy actions countless times (= grindy).

I didn’t want to include all hidden premisses, thought it was clear to everyone? But yeah I wouldn’t mind doing different content each time, but repeating hero challenges PER character is obviously grindy in the sense that it’s timeconsuming, and timeconsuming in the sense that it’s grindy.

You wanna list grind in GW2? Sure.

Slayer achievements are grind (especially that dreaded Giant Slayer one). Weapon Master achievements are grind. Fractal Frequenter, Hobby Dungeon Explorer, and just about all PvP and WvW achievements are grind.

World completion is not grind.

Doing something on multiple playthroughs is not grind.

Time consuming != grind. Time consuming is boring. Grind is also boring.

People are using the term “grind” interchangeably with “boring due to time consuming” but they are NOT the same. It’s just that both result in the same feeling: Bored.

Why do people keep using GW1 or other games as examples ? This is clearly not GW1 or we would have split classing and not be able to jump, it’s also not Metroid because this isn’t 1930.

Chaba.5410:

A Portrait of the Player as a WvW Regular

- Two accounts (actually I have three but only purchased HoT for these two).
- Twelve level 80s
- Two above 60 hero points
- Only one with 100% map completion
- 75% of toons under 20% map completion
- 5904 combined total gaming hours
- No Legendary
- No full sets of ascended gear
- Purchaser of gems with real cash
- 1892 combined WXP rank (677 and 1215 respectively)

How can you help me? Can I hire you to get the hero points for my toons?

not including my alt account because i didn’t purchase HoT for it:
-10 characters, all of them level 80.
-2770 hours played across all characters, most of that time spent in WvW
-my “main” character has 100% map, 1 legendary, and 4 pieces of ascended armor, all 4 of which came as loot, 3 of which came from level up chests in WvW. she has 207 Hero points.
-my secondary character has 48 Hero points and 19% map.
-the rest of my characters range from 15 completion all the way down to 1.
-ALL of my characters with the exception of my main were leveled with a combination of WvW, crafting, and later on tomes and +20 level scrolls.
-WvW rank 665 (i took almost a year break, so my rank is way lower than it would be if i had played straight through)
-i have bought hundreds of dollars worth of gems over the last 3 years, and bought the $100 xpack flavor.

hmmmm :-/

Random.4691:

Why do people keep using GW1 or other games as examples ? This is clearly not GW1 or we would have split classing and not be able to jump, it’s also not Metroid because this isn’t 1930.

People use GW1 because it’s also made by ArenaNet.

My post was using the other games to prove that every single game in existence has the very system that people are complaining about right now. Needing to play content in order to progress your playing capabilities.

And just so it’s clear:

Locking elite specs behind doing HoT content is not the problem. This should be done.

It’s how they locked elite specs behind doing HoT content that’s the problem.

Seriously the lack of red post, not that I should be surprised, it’s like that child that was caught doing something they shouldn’t so they just hide because that makes everything better. I guess they really didn’t learn from their FAQ scandal.

Random.4691:

Well Colin/Anet do you have anything to say about this crap show you created ? Or will you just tuck tail and hide as usual ?

Man up, either come out and say “sorry sucks to be you” or “we understand this may not have been the wises of choice and will have a work around before launch”.

They won’t change a thing. I believe this has been carefully architected for months. In fact the 170 hero point requirement that was found during data mining was probably planted so the data miners would find it and report it and soften the blow when they dropped the bomb on just how much it would really cost.

They have the data to know that when players play more they also spend more in the cash shop. So all the 2011 GW2 manifesto rhetoric about anti-grind and causal friendly play is being retired to impelment a new strategy of “whatever keeps them playing all the time” agenda. They no longer care about your other time commitments. If they loose the casual adult players well they’ve run the numbers. We aren’t their best customers so instead of encouraging us to come in they are now holding the exit door open for us and pointing the way “thanks for playing, thanks for your money… too bad you couldn’t sacrifice time with your girlfriend, kids, college degree, second job, sick grandmother, etc… You should have known our original manifesto was a pipe dream that would not be sustainable. Thanks for believing and good luck”.

katz.8376:

Chaba.5410:

A Portrait of the Player as a WvW Regular

- Two accounts (actually I have three but only purchased HoT for these two).
- Twelve level 80s
- Two above 60 hero points
- Only one with 100% map completion
- 75% of toons under 20% map completion
- 5904 combined total gaming hours
- No Legendary
- No full sets of ascended gear
- Purchaser of gems with real cash
- 1892 combined WXP rank (677 and 1215 respectively)

How can you help me? Can I hire you to get the hero points for my toons?

not including my alt account because i didn’t purchase HoT for it:
-10 characters, all of them level 80.
-2770 hours played across all characters, most of that time spent in WvW
-my “main” character has 100% map, 1 legendary, and 4 pieces of ascended armor, all 4 of which came as loot, 3 of which came from level up chests in WvW. she has 207 Hero points.
-my secondary character has 48 Hero points and 19% map.
-the rest of my characters range from 15 completion all the way down to 1.
-ALL of my characters with the exception of my main were leveled with a combination of WvW, crafting, and later on tomes and +20 level scrolls.
-WvW rank 665 (i took almost a year break, so my rank is way lower than it would be if i had played straight through)
-i have bought hundreds of dollars worth of gems over the last 3 years, and bought the $100 xpack flavor.

hmmmm :-/

The worst thing about all this is that anet has all the data… They know how many millions of characters there are, the average characters per account, how many characters have map completion vs those that don’t… Yet still made this decision. Pretty crappy if you ask me.

Random.4691:

Seriously the lack of red post, not that I should be surprised, it’s like that child that was caught doing something they shouldn’t so they just hide because that makes everything better. I guess they really didn’t learn from their FAQ scandal.

Given that the vast majority of the complaints in this thread are by a small handful of people and that most of it was posted during Anet’s downtime, this really shouldn’t be a surprise.
People are trying to be very loud about their complaints, but so far the actual number of people complaining really isn’t that high.

Really? Not high? You DO realize we are on page 28 already, right? This is also not the only thread or forum discussing this.

And typically the number of active forum posters in online games is < 1% of the players actually playing.

A lot of people aren’t even aware about this yet.

If it wasn’t against the ToS to rally players/boycott services, I’d have already been on that. At first I was going to just join the trains to get through HoT content as fast as humanly possible, but I’d rather not give ANet the metrics of that people are playing the content.

There are far less white knights defending the 400 hp than there are people complaining about it.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Random.4691:

Seriously the lack of red post, not that I should be surprised, it’s like that child that was caught doing something they shouldn’t so they just hide because that makes everything better. I guess they really didn’t learn from their FAQ scandal.

Given that the vast majority of the complaints in this thread are by a small handful of people and that most of it was posted during Anet’s downtime, this really shouldn’t be a surprise.
People are trying to be very loud about their complaints, but so far the actual number of people complaining really isn’t that high.

Yet it’s a sample of the anger still to come. This is the calm before the storm…

Developers make big mistakes sometimes and this is a big mistake.

Swagger.1459:

Seera.5916:

Swagger.1459:

FinalPatriot.8034:

And this reminds me why I did not preorder the game. I think I’ll wait a while and see how this gets resolved.

As a casual player, this pretty much kills the game for me.

What really concerns me though with HoT is there is now, ANOTHER controversy about the xPack. Why did they just not release all this information long time ago and not within 72hrs of launch?

Because they knew players would be kittened off and they didn’t want to take away from the hype

That’s the thing, if they had stated this info much earlier, there wouldn’t be as much issue with the amount needed. Players would have time to adjust expectations and have a reasonable amount of time to get max hero points on all characters they planned to get the elite on except revenant.

Eh I don’t think so for many players, because that still means slogging through maps over and over and over and over and over…

Maybe slightly less stress for wvwers if they were allowed to start buying these notarized scrolls 6 months ago.

Overall, I call foul and this hype train jumped on the dhuum tracks with this one. Just wait until the players who don’t visit the forums open up their character panel on launch day lol

I didn’t say it would go away. Just that it wouldn’t be as huge.

1. There would have been time for ANet to work out a compromise if they wanted to.

2. Players would have had a decent amount of time to get more core Tyria hero points to reduce the number needed when HoT launches.

3. Players wouldn’t have had the feeling that ANet might have kept quiet about it because they knew it would be an unpopular decision.

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Random.4691:

Seriously the lack of red post, not that I should be surprised, it’s like that child that was caught doing something they shouldn’t so they just hide because that makes everything better. I guess they really didn’t learn from their FAQ scandal.

Given that the vast majority of the complaints in this thread are by a small handful of people and that most of it was posted during Anet’s downtime, this really shouldn’t be a surprise.
People are trying to be very loud about their complaints, but so far the actual number of people complaining really isn’t that high.

That and we’re within 2 days of launch. The devs may not have time for posting on the forums that much or the permission to interrupt the devs that know the answers to the questions we have about this.

Seera.5916:

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Random.4691:

Seriously the lack of red post, not that I should be surprised, it’s like that child that was caught doing something they shouldn’t so they just hide because that makes everything better. I guess they really didn’t learn from their FAQ scandal.

Given that the vast majority of the complaints in this thread are by a small handful of people and that most of it was posted during Anet’s downtime, this really shouldn’t be a surprise.
People are trying to be very loud about their complaints, but so far the actual number of people complaining really isn’t that high.

That and we’re within 2 days of launch. The devs may not have time for posting on the forums that much or the permission to interrupt the devs that know the answers to the questions we have about this.

They have people who are working for them for the literal purpose of relaying messages to and from the community and dev teams. This is not a valid excuse.

Black Box.9312:

Seera.5916:

Lucifers Heaven.2167:

Random.4691:

Seriously the lack of red post, not that I should be surprised, it’s like that child that was caught doing something they shouldn’t so they just hide because that makes everything better. I guess they really didn’t learn from their FAQ scandal.

Given that the vast majority of the complaints in this thread are by a small handful of people and that most of it was posted during Anet’s downtime, this really shouldn’t be a surprise.
People are trying to be very loud about their complaints, but so far the actual number of people complaining really isn’t that high.

That and we’re within 2 days of launch. The devs may not have time for posting on the forums that much or the permission to interrupt the devs that know the answers to the questions we have about this.

They have people who are working for them for the literal purpose of relaying messages to and from the community and dev teams. This is not a valid excuse.

Yes, but the dev teams may be too busy to answer questions given how close we are to launch. So the messengers have told to only interrupt if it’s important and they may not view giving explanation for the choice as important enough to warrant an interruption.

BobbyT.7192:

Seera.5916:

The one to Rule.2593:

gavyne.6847:

The one to Rule.2593:

So…..get the elite specs?

That’s the core of the complaint, having the elite specs gated behind expansion content. This means we’ll have to play new expansion content with the same ‘ol characters we’ve played for the past 3 years. Likely have to do masteries in order to unlock some hero challenges.

It’s just boring and disappointing to have to play these same ‘ol characters in the new expansion, and have to repeat it over and over and over and over until you’ve done it for all your characters and unlocked their elite specs. All this just so we could play the new elite specs in the new expansion content both in PvE & WvW.

If you don’t understand this, then I’ve got nothing further to say to you. I wish Colin would come back and talk with the playerbase more so players don’t have to tear each other apart on behalf of Anet. It’s clear some are ok with it, some aren’t. No sense letting players kill each other over it because nobody’s going to change anybody’s minds here.

I understand it, it’s just ridiculous that people thought that they were just gonna get their elite specs with no work.

No one was expecting no work, but the amount needed seems high to some, especially to those who have a number of alts.

That’s the life one chooses when they decide to have alts, IMO alts are suppose to be expensive, and time consuming. I would be really rich if it wasn’t for my alts, ( seriously, I made my first legendary for an alt).
Thb, the amount of work is not that high, for what you need, could get done in a few hours.

See the PvE players keep saying, “You can get it done in a few hours.”, but the truth is no one knows how long it will take. What if 30 of the 40 Hero Challenges you need are xp gated behind masteries?

“Hey, want these 5 challenges? Okay master ley line gliding.” 16 million xp later you can go get those 5 challenges. “Hey here’s 7 more challenges, but you have to master super mario mushroom jumping first.” Okay there goes another giant time block. “Ahhhh learn to understand the mysterious language of C’thulu and gain access to 10 more hero challenges.” Get what I’m saying?