Guild Wars 2

Why shouldn’t we have elites day one? I mean Rytlock got his elite day 1 of the expansion. Yes, I know he went into the mists and had some mystical experience or whatever. Well heck, our characters took down Zhaitan, Scarlet Briar saving Lion’s Arch, and we haven’t learned some awesome new skills along the way??? Come on… make it a story thing… I wanted to play through the expansion as an elite. There is already a mastery system that is supposed to mark your progression in HoT.

Gathslan.1870:

Playing the game is not a grind, you are not repeating a process again and again, there is thought put into the content.

What do you want, to just afk in lions arch or what?

I can’t actually play any of the new game though – elite specs and the story are gated behind masteries. I have to go grind for a billion hours to advance.

Just to add to my previous post, I’ve played these characters for 3 years already.

People want to use the new specs for the new content not play the old ones for 20+ hours then finally have the new spec only to have nothing to do.

Veneratio.1980:

Um no. The majority are playing the game and loving it. The very small yet vocal minority are here whingin about it.

Well the vast majority of the people I talked to today both in guild and out were not “loving it”. They were doing it because they had to, not because they wanted to. I liked the map, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t like that of the 6 HP challenges I found 4 wouldn’t let me interact with them due to not having the correct masteries.

Yes, this system is very flawed. It’s not alt friendly whatsoever, it makes me want to chug through/resent doing the new content (which should be the highlight of the experience), and then it feels like a waste of time because what else is there to do afterwards. It’s lovely to be like “Oh, I found one… nah it’s gated… oh wait found another one… gated again…”

For some classes, I’m at the point of “oh, just forget it” because it isn’t even worth it.

The vast majority of people on this topic are saying the same thing. We expected to be able to play the much touted elites within a reasonable time after release, and for that majority the 16,18,40 hrs or w/e it takes is just ridiculous.

The majority feels that mastery’s themselves are ok, but that locking them to elite’s is not.

The majority feels that personal elites should not be tied into group success scenarios.

The majority feels they should not have to play through most of the new HoT pve zones just to play how they want to play. That by doing so a grind mentality happens and the areas themselves become that, instead of adventures.

The majority feels that the wvw grind isn’t all that much better, because people want to be fighting using their new abilities and not mindlessly running in swarms just for the sake of a nuisance gate.

The majority with many alts are worried about the hundreds of additional hours of “gameplay” necessary to run around with specs they’re tired of simply to play the way they want to play

The majority feels they were promised new exiting roles to try and only upon entering HoT have they realized that their elites will be crippled to the tune of many many hours (which for many working people accounts for days and weeks of not being able to use their new spec) x any alt they have or may wish to create in the future and that this particular hero point system becomes a grind for fun.

The minority wishes for everything to take a long time to complete, and believes time itself gives satisfaction in all areas of the game.

The minority is afraid that if Anet caves on the elite grind they may do so in other areas of the game, no matter how many times the majority tells the minority this is not a global time involvement complaint, but simply restricted to elite hero point grind.

This is definitely a hot button issue right now and one that has attracted many people to voice their opinions.

Also Ty Gaile, for coming back on this topic and saying what you did about monitoring the concern for not an extraordinary amount of time before perhaps making some adjustments. Also ty for saying that it wasn’t your desire to diminish the concerns of people.

Eponet.4829:

Whalekisses.1345:

By this I mean allow players to grant even more strength to one legendary weapon by using these points. The system of doing so would be simple, use 400 hero points to make a stone after completing a series of difficult quests that can be placed into one legendary piece of equipment, thus further empowering a legendary weapon. When a legendary weapon is ascended past its limits it has greater power and grants a unique elite skill to the player specific to the legendary weapon (swapping weapons will not matter as long as the legendary is equipped to the player). Then if a player wants to use a different legendary he can remove the stone using a buyable item from arena net or completing a long series of quests that allow them to extract the stone

Uhh… no…

Making it statistically better would make legendary weapons turn from just a goal to work toward into a requirement for PuGs.

Then make this option available to ascended weapons as well and instead of giving a elite give the weapon a special attribute based on the weapon the stone is used on. Again this whole scenario is just a suggestion. I still believe that we should be entitled to this elite class just by playing HOT or completing some sort of specialization quest instead of this point system. I understand they used this point system for each other trait line, but this one is suppose to be different. So using a different system all together would probably be the most player friendly way of looking at this.

Reduces the grind, especially on classes we not interested as much in their core.

Make them account bound. This way you can keep your intended 30 hour grind, but we as players wont be punished by having to do this 9 times over.

its already hard to navigate the zones, and with most of them requiring a group to complete, they are extremely hard to complete. In this grind heavy mastery design, nobody likes wasting time sitting there waiting for other players to discover the same hero point you are standing at.

this is a decent quick patch up.

Kaiser.9873:

Veneratio.1980:

Um no. The majority are playing the game and loving it. The very small yet vocal minority are here whingin about it.

Well the vast majority of the people I talked to today both in guild and out were not “loving it”. They were doing it because they had to, not because they wanted to. I liked the map, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t like that of the 6 HP challenges I found 4 wouldn’t let me interact with them due to not having the correct masteries.

Kaiser.9873:

Veneratio.1980:

Um no. The majority are playing the game and loving it. The very small yet vocal minority are here whingin about it.

Well the vast majority of the people I talked to today both in guild and out were not “loving it”. They were doing it because they had to, not because they wanted to. I liked the map, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t like that of the 6 HP challenges I found 4 wouldn’t let me interact with them due to not having the correct masteries.

By saying that you liked the map, I’m assuming that you mean in Verdant Brink.

I actually managed to get 8/11 of the hero points there with just gliding. So, there’s at most 3 that you can’t interact with without the correct masteries. I completely agree with you in principal though.

Gaile Gray.6029:

No one — especially me — is diminishing the thoughts, concerns, and input on this subject being shared by our forum members. But I believe that it is premature to make a comment about “forever” in the context of a game that has been playable for less than 24 hours.

I stand by that, for it is what I believe. I believe that time will give everyone a better view of this situation. The outcome may be that it’s seen that yes, the difficulty is too high. The outcome may be that eventually, the number is seen as reasonable and properly attainable.

I think that all of us — players and developers alike — do not have sufficient information yet to know what the “sweet spot” is. I suggest we allow us — as players and devs — to attain the necessary info to analyze this situation through gameplay and the passage of time. I want to assure you that I don’t mean months and months, either, but some amount of time on which to base an informed opinion.

I say this especially when I see this post:

Nike.2631:

It been just over 18 hours and I’ve unlocked everything I wanted for my main including the GM I intend to use. Needed one mastery level of gliding and one mastery level of mushroom bounce. Still trying to pick some ‘low-hanging fruit’ Hero Challenges, but basically I’m good to go anywhere.

Day one Dragonhunter. I can live with it. Still need another 90 points for the armor/runes, but I don’t plan to use either so that’s just showing off .

Im pretty sure the OP was using the term ‘forever’ in the slang parlance meaning longer than I envisaged/planned or wanted to take on a particular thing…

eg ‘Forever is a colloquial exaggeration, understood as “a very long time”.’

‘take forever – to happen very slowly I have an old microwave, the kind that takes forever to boil a cup of water. In rush-hour traffic, it takes forever to get home’

I just don’t think verbal eye rolling about a dramatic turn of phrase negates a valid point..and using one persons comments against another to make your point when the kittens flying is bad form really…

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Anet wants players to actually play the game? And you’re complaining about that?

I have no words…

Elite Specializations introduce unique play mechanics that are a core part of the HoT expanshion from a play mechanic standpoint. It makes sense most players would prefer a play mechanic aspect of the game to be something available you play the game through with not something you receive as a reward for finishing the game. Those going into HoT whe need the 400 points are looking at a very long grind. Not just for the Hero Points needed (which goes beyond the second map, but also Mastery’s needed to get there.

I realize you see the Elite Specializations as something that should be worked for. I respect that and agree to an extent. Having to finish perhaps 20-25% of the HoT content to do full functional unlock (e.g. all Elite Spec Trail lines and Utility skills, but no elite skins or weapon mods) is acceiptible, but as it’s implemented a player coming in without core game map compleition has to do about 70-75% of the HoT content before being able to construct an effective build for the level 80 maps in HoT. As implemented the Elite Specializations are essentially rewards for finishing HoT and not designed for a player to play though the game with them.

I was hoping I was wrong, like there had to be some way to actually get a build without all this, but it looks like you have to go linearly through the entire thing, unlocking every trait before you get to the end. This is just ridiculous. At least it would be less crazy if you could pick a trait from each tier and at least get a build with ~60 pts. But you actually have to pick up all the wells etc. it seems like, there is not quick way to get a playable elite build.

This is just kittening kittened and I’m glad I’m not alone in thinking this is bull kitten. Maybe Anet will rethink this crap.

Veneratio.1980:

Um no. The majority are playing the game and loving it. The very small yet vocal minority are here whingin about it.

Ah yes. The same thing John Smedley said during the NGE fiasco of SWG.

Shortly afterwards SWG lost most of it player base.. and were forced to refund the cost of an expansion to any player who asked for it. The magnitude of the mistakes made were reported in the Wall Street Journal.

Great reasoning there.

leftyboy.9358:

The vast majority of people on this topic are saying the same thing. We expected to be able to play the much touted elites within a reasonable time after release, and for that majority the 16,18,40 hrs or w/e it takes is just ridiculous.

The majority feels that mastery’s themselves are ok, but that locking them to elite’s is not.

The majority feels that personal elites should not be tied into group success scenarios.

The majority feels they should not have to play through most of the new HoT pve zones just to play how they want to play. That by doing so a grind mentality happens and the areas themselves become that, instead of adventures.

The majority feels that the wvw grind isn’t all that much better, because people want to be fighting using their new abilities and not mindlessly running in swarms just for the sake of a nuisance gate.

The majority with many alts are worried about the hundreds of additional hours of “gameplay” necessary to run around with specs they’re tired of simply to play the way they want to play

The majority feels they were promised new exiting roles to try and only upon entering HoT have they realized that their elites will be crippled to the tune of many many hours (which for many working people accounts for days and weeks of not being able to use their new spec) x any alt they have or may wish to create in the future and that this particular hero point system becomes a grind for fun.

The minority wishes for everything to take a long time to complete, and believes time itself gives satisfaction in all areas of the game.

The minority is afraid that if Anet caves on the elite grind they may do so in other areas of the game, no matter how many times the majority tells the minority this is not a global time involvement complaint, but simply restricted to elite hero point grind.

This is definitely a hot button issue right now and one that has attracted many people to voice their opinions so anet will, and I hope soon, address it with more than just snarky remark towards people who just bought their game.

Yes yes yes this so this

Sounds like they hired Paul Christoforo for consulting for HoT.

By using the word “elite” to describe the new trait lines for each profession, Anet thinks that justifies grinding out 400 hero points just to achieve it. Some of those “elite” trait lines and corresponding new weapons aren’t as good as the original profession’s(looking at you Tempest). Now if I am wrong and those “elites” truly are more powerful and worth all those shiny hero points then we would have a pay to win issue(non-expansion players vs expansion players) These really aren’t elites they are more like alternate professions. 400 hero points is ludicrous.

The Onion Knight.9435:

Take out the stupid hero points so we don’t have to grind and just have it as a slot in our masteries to level up to gain hero points. Easy, there, fixed. Wala. How in the world do you expect us to level our alts elite specs after leveling one is taking forever.

What about removing endboss in fractal/raids and dungeons so you get rewarded right after u enter without playing the game mechanic ?

Peoples still dont get what a game is made for and lack alot of logic.

I feel like ANet dove in headfirst into this concept they mentioned about trying to “stretch” content so there’s less pressure to produce new material and as a result packed every last square inch of the game with gold sinks and time sinks, not thinking about how that degrades the actual gameplay experience. Everywhere I turn in HoT I’m met with hurdle after hurdle after hurdle. There’s NOTHING in this expansion to just dive into. It’s all gated behind gold, or masteries, or hero challenges. All of it.

You can’t try the new PvP amulets or runes without paying a horrendous 10g a pop for them. You can’t advance the personal story without grinding out gliding mastery. You can’t play your elite spec. You can’t start a precursor collection. You can’t do anything at all without first paying a massive price in time or money to “unlock” it.

And there was feedback on this in previous BWEs. And there was feedback on the elite spec unlocks prior to launch. And no one likes having to pay 10g for the few amulets and runs already gated in pvp. Players have zero indication they were interested in this approach and numerous indications that they were opposed to it.

And somewhere here we are anyhow.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

leftyboy.9358:

Gaile gray’s post implies people who have a problem with long grind for their basic elite skills and traits are in some way just silly.

But… all the complaints are silly. The common denominator for all of them is “I don’t want to play to unlock this, I want it now.” Anet Devs said previously that they pay attention to legitimate complaint posts, the ones that actually provide constructive feedback. And they take that feedback and make changes to the game.

Edit – Somewhere buried in the forums, Colin or MO actually gave examples of changes they made based on player feedback.

People have provided constructive feedback. Lots of it. Just because there is whining mixed in doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. In fact, I’m sure there are loads of people playing this game who would be happy to have sat down in the development stages of HoT and helped the devs make a system for elite specializations that most people would be happy with. But as far as I know, there was no such conversation.

So you can be an apologist and talk about how they respond to feedback, but we both know they tend to be slow-moving when it comes to anything beyond bug fixes. Talking about giving them feedback now, when the stuff is done and released, when they could have gotten such feedback months ago by being a bit more forthcoming with details… it’s a bit insulting.

I’m not saying they should have consulted us. It is their game and their business model. But if you are going to talk as if we should be telling them how we want the game to be, then they have to give us details before it’s too late to make changes. It’s a two-way street and we are the ones paying them, not the other way around.

I am tired and cranky, and frankly annoyed at the attitude of “please give constructive feedback!” As if we are worker bees and owe it to the queen bee to act in a certain way. It’s not just guild wars 2 that grinds my gears about this. There’s almost this extremism effect in video games now, where players whine more and devs ask for more from players. Instead of a balanced environment, it’s “we want what we want, give it to us” (players) and “then you make the game for us” (devs).

Almost like it’s reaching this point where the devs are just like, f it, you design the game and we’ll put a bow on it so it looks fancy. Except then the devs inevitably go off in some other direction half the time because they have an internal process and are never as in-touch with their playerbase as they’d like to be because none of them have the time to log 16 hour days. And because they have their own ideas and aspirations about what a game should and shouldn’t be. And because they have the almighty dollar hanging over their heads at every turn.

I mean, honestly, maybe these companies should pay a few people to log 16 hour days… people who really love their game and would play that much anyway… and report back to them on what the game is and what the playerbase is like and what they want. Cause no matter what they say about playing the game themselves, I’ve yet to see a company that truly understands its own game in the way that most of its players do. They are always one step behind because their long work days mean they are going to be casual and detached most of the time.

Sinzaku.2980:

The Onion Knight.9435:

Take out the stupid hero points so we don’t have to grind and just have it as a slot in our masteries to level up to gain hero points. Easy, there, fixed. Wala. How in the world do you expect us to level our alts elite specs after leveling one is taking forever.

What about removing endboss in fractal/raids and dungeons so you get rewarded right after u enter without playing the game mechanic ?

Peoples still dont get what a game is made for and lack alot of logic.

Or you do not get that there is a lot of players that have a lot of alts. I have 16 alts, which 4 i play every day in different gamemodes, mostly wvw though. 4 i play several times a week and the rest when i feel like it. I would like to continue to do so, but this would require roughly me grinding 4000 hero points.

I play this game a lot, and i don’t mind having to put effort in to this, i already grind several hours a day for other things i want and need and i have 6 worldcompletions. Unfortune only 2 of those are on characters i play everyday. So imo this is to much and it is puting a restrain on my game play, and i will probably make 2 of the elitespecs, and the rest of the characters will probably be sitting there, and in the end i will get bored and play less because i do not have the choice to pick what i want to play with anymore. And that is what is bothering me.

I thought I was a relatively hard core player, but I have not yet even unlocked the traits on the elite spec on my main which started with world completion and has something like 3k hours on her. So I haven’t been using it at all, because why would I do the content with a weakened character?

I thought this would be a pretty straight forward process and pretty much ignored all discussions prior to launch, but this current set up does seem excessive. There is no way I’m going through all this on my alts. Maybe I can use the WvW method, I haven’t messed around with that yet.

Elite trait line should cost exactly the same as any other trait line. Elites really aren’t any better than existing professions…. some are better, some are worse… The unlocking part should be for the unique armors and weapons that are elite based.. Why throw all that junk in with the trait lines anyway???? We want to play the elites…..

Gaile Gray.6029:

Eponet.4829:

The difficulty isn’t too high. The fact that by the time you get it, you’ve already gone through more than half the maps is the issue. If they were all put in the first area, there would at least be three maps to experience at our own pace and explore for the sake of exploring instead of because we’re forced to in order to get the class mechanics (Which were designed to fill holes in the base classes) to function fully.

I feel that’s very valuable feedback. Thanks for that insight.

I agree with that this is valuable feedback (looking at most of the other posts in this thread) but I disagree with the content of it. I believe that mastering an elite specialization is something that should take time, just as it takes time to level a character and get the “normal” specializations. The only “valid” point of this post is that it takes exploration to get the elite specialization. I do like to do map completion so that doesn’t bother me, but I can see the point. What I don’t understand is why it is so necessary to rush through three maps to get your elite specialization. But that is probably the main issue here. I believe that the elite specialization is something to work for and will come in time. Many here believe it should have been available at the start of HoT.

I feel like something that really needs to be highlighted is the experience of this system for Heralds/Revs. Every single Revenant is starting from scratch, and the class is particularly affected by the heavy gating. Due to the nature of legends, a new Herald is basically stuck with a shield and Facet of Nature for a LONG time, in addition to the usual incomplete talent tree. Taking Glint is a straight up LIABILITY for a long time because you can’t just fill in the facets you don’t have yet with something else. It feels like a punishment, and because of how many points you need the ‘journey’ ends up feeling more like a hurdle to pass. This is the elite for the NEW class that should, and one which many deem game changing for the class, yet it’s gated behind most of the new content. Which is such a huge shame.

I’m not stranger to grinding. I grinded Netherwing rep like a mofo in Burning Crusade, and knew the flight paths for that like the back of my hand. Hell, I played EQ back in the day and got my Magician Epic 1.0 which included camping the notoriously-difficult-to-find Quillmane for a week; I turned in wine for hours to get friendly with the Dark Elves and killed undead frogloks for days on end for an illusion clicky. But….I was also 13 years old, and playing MMOs in an era where grind was expected.

The rest of this game has minimal grind, and this just doesn’t synergize with it at all. And weirdly enough, Heralds are the prime example of that: legends are made with the assumption that minimal grind is needed for a leveling character to fill out a legend’s track, and specs are(more generally speaking) laid out similarly. To suddenly have a spec that adds a legend at end-game in hard PvE content which you can’t quickly flesh out, and a trait line which you similarly can’t flesh out quickly(yet are required to take), throws the gameplay of a progressing Herald off. Because the game isnt balanced around progressing characters because basic character progression should be quick. Masteries are amazing(they remind me of AA points, speaking of EQ) and serve the mildly-grindy progression role well already. We really don’t need, nor want, Elites to serve that role either.

I was really expecting to be able to use the new content (the elite specializations) in the new areas and experiment with them. If we are required to explore the entire place just to get them… what is even the point? Instead of being able to enjoy the new content and experience it at it’s full, I’m rushing around trying to find the fastest way to get these hero points so I can actually play the content. By the time I get them all, which will not be any time soon the way it’s been going, I will have already been everywhere and there will be no fun use of what I’ve just unlocked.

Basically:
Right now – Forced to rush through content and not enjoy it, only to unlock something that we will have little place to experiment with since we’ve already been to every location.

What I suggest – Unlock the specializations in the starter area, so we can experiment with it while enjoying the rest of the content.

My concern is players being able to use content that we have waited so long for and paid for without spending 80+ hours (for a casual gamer this could take weeks or even months to achieve) on a game we’ve been playing for so long. Most players have 1000+ hours spent in the game playing pvp, wvw, and pve. The way this expansion should have turned out is to give a new experience to the players and make them feel like they not only have a entirely new game to play, but to at least give them the content they were promised on the release of this content. The way this turned out was basically a big F-you to all players who spent their 1000+ hours on things they enjoy, for the players who did enjoy map completion, of course they are enjoying this new expansion because it’s rewarding them for playing a part of the game not everyone likes to play. This gives them a edge in the game itself and they are happy to have it. On the other hand even those players that do have this map completion they may not have this on each character they enjoy playing and even they will soon feel the negative affects of this endless grind to get what you paid for. I personally don’t see myself playing until this is fixed because I expected to go through this new HoT campaign with the “reaper” class. I have a lot of different suggestions to fix these problems, but I know most will just fall to nothing. Even compensating people with the ability to gain hero points through pvp rank, wvw rank and other means would make this better, but I actually still don’t agree with this, because I believe we should all be able to use these elite classes shortly after beginning the HoT campaign.

Oh btw, from a game design standpoint, having a level 80 go through an incremental unlock process with a new spec makes no sense. It makes sense when leveling and when you are leveling, the content is designed for incomplete builds and limited ability use. Level 80 is balanced around full specs and full gear.

So basically, anyone who uses a partially unlocked elite spec is going to be gimping themselves for no good reason in content that is designed for fully unlocked specs.

Bottom line: Incremental unlock is a big no-no. Make it instant once you’ve filled out the requirements. As in, you get it all at once or not at all. Halfway specs are for games with true level cap increases and content to match, not games putting you in level 80 content for level 80 characters with level 80 specializations unlocked.

Gaile Gray.6029:

No one — especially me — is diminishing the thoughts, concerns, and input on this subject being shared by our forum members. But I believe that it is premature to make a comment about “forever” in the context of a game that has been playable for less than 24 hours.

I stand by that, for it is what I believe. I believe that time will give everyone a better view of this situation. The outcome may be that it’s seen that yes, the difficulty is too high. The outcome may be that eventually, the number is seen as reasonable and properly attainable.

I think that all of us — players and developers alike — do not have sufficient information yet to know what the “sweet spot” is. I suggest we allow us — as players and devs — to attain the necessary info to analyze this situation through gameplay and the passage of time. I want to assure you that I don’t mean months and months, either, but some amount of time on which to base an informed opinion.

I say this especially when I see this post:

Nike.2631:

It been just over 18 hours and I’ve unlocked everything I wanted for my main including the GM I intend to use. Needed one mastery level of gliding and one mastery level of mushroom bounce. Still trying to pick some ‘low-hanging fruit’ Hero Challenges, but basically I’m good to go anywhere.

Day one Dragonhunter. I can live with it. Still need another 90 points for the armor/runes, but I don’t plan to use either so that’s just showing off .

I think the example you chose is unfair to a good number of players, like myself, who are not part of this niche group that enjoys, and is good at map completion. I have under 20% map completion on all my characters, because, even before expansion I did not enjoy that aspect of the game, it made me frustrated, now I come to the new zone and I’m falling off every ledge getting lost, have no idea where to go and in general had a poor experience trying to rush to get the heck out of there.

Well I ended up not getting a single hero point due to my frustration causing me to leave, though I did find the glider quite enjoyable and would like to see that implemented somewhat in wvw if it would be plausible.

Then I went and commanded for an hour and a half in EOTM, with the sole purpose of farming hero point shard things, and only got 17 of those, I don’t like how the elite specs have been so immensely timegated for folks who aren’t like the guy you quoted, we are the ones who feel the shaft the hardest, I’m sure the guy you quoted enjoyed the map completion content much more than myself and other players are.

Some options for players like me would be:
-Make it more reasonable for wvw to get specs, or if you get the spec it unlocks all of them for all characters. B/C it discourages actual wvw play and encourages the player vs. door.
-Make a reward track in pvp to unlock them for the other game modes, this is much more comfortable for myself, and many of my guildies who are struggling in the map completion.
-Add rewards in fractals to purchase the specs.
-Lower the amount of hero points required, significantly, allow players to enjoy the new areas with their new elite specs, instead of dragging on with the builds we have been playing. (other than rev, which I find to be an enjoyable new class, if only I could try out herald…)
-Maybe then make the 400 hero point grind more for the skins, than for the class itself, I think this would be reasonable, and fashion is the content most folks enjoy working towards, whether you enjoy the new “progression” or not, people like working on their own unique wardrobe… and guess what it doesn’t damage the playing experience for any groups of players. Besides, the skins are pretty well done for the most part, I would joyfully play on the elite specs I find exciting for quite some time through normal wvw and what not to get those skins.

And I would respectfully disagree on there not being enough time to see how it pans out. The 400 cap per character is absolutely appalling, and to altoholics like me I would have a heart attack and die going through that map completion on every single one of my alts, over and over again. I can’t even do it once, and don’t plan on going back to the new area until I’m not frustrated about the fact that I’m being forced out of the game areas I enjoy to the area of the game I avoid at all costs to try and rush through the hoarding of hero points, just so I can have my elite spec for the times I do fractals/dungeons/world bosses with friends.

I would just like to comfortably play pvp and wvw without HP training and without worrying about my specs in other game modes, since I model them after my pvp specs as closely as possible.

Thank you Gaile for sticking your head in the fire again, it’s good to see the devs looking into a solution to this.

Labjax.2465:

Oh btw, from a game design standpoint, having a level 80 go through an incremental unlock process with a new spec makes no sense. It makes sense when leveling and when you are leveling, the content is designed for incomplete builds and limited ability use. Level 80 is balanced around full specs and full gear.

So basically, anyone who uses a partially unlocked elite spec is going to be gimping themselves for no good reason in content that is designed for fully unlocked specs.

Bottom line: Incremental unlock is a big no-no. Make it instant once you’ve filled out the requirements. As in, you get it all at once or not at all. Halfway specs are for games with true level cap increases and content to match, not games putting you in level 80 content for level 80 characters with level 80 specializations unlocked.

I 100% agree with this. This should be something completed in higher levels (maybe 60-80) than other specs, but not a full 80 hour grind after reaching level 80. Even after reaching level 80 a small quest to obtain this class is acceptable, but not a grind to get what you paid for.

leftyboy.9358:

The vast majority of people on this topic are saying the same thing. We expected to be able to play the much touted elites within a reasonable time after release, and for that majority the 16,18,40 hrs or w/e it takes is just ridiculous.

The majority feels that mastery’s themselves are ok, but that locking them to elite’s is not.

The majority feels that personal elites should not be tied into group success scenarios.

The majority feels they should not have to play through most of the new HoT pve zones just to play how they want to play. That by doing so a grind mentality happens and the areas themselves become that, instead of adventures.

The majority feels that the wvw grind isn’t all that much better, because people want to be fighting using their new abilities and not mindlessly running in swarms just for the sake of a nuisance gate.

The majority with many alts are worried about the hundreds of additional hours of “gameplay” necessary to run around with specs they’re tired of simply to play the way they want to play

The majority feels they were promised new exiting roles to try and only upon entering HoT have they realized that their elites will be crippled to the tune of many many hours (which for many working people accounts for days and weeks of not being able to use their new spec) x any alt they have or may wish to create in the future and that this particular hero point system becomes a grind for fun.

The minority wishes for everything to take a long time to complete, and believes time itself gives satisfaction in all areas of the game.

The minority is afraid that if Anet caves on the elite grind they may do so in other areas of the game, no matter how many times the majority tells the minority this is not a global time involvement complaint, but simply restricted to elite hero point grind.

This is definitely a hot button issue right now and one that has attracted many people to voice their opinions so anet will, and I hope soon, address it with more than just snarky remark towards people who just bought their game.

Playing since the release of the game, mostly a wvw player and i agree with your post. Quoting it because not goot enough in english to tell what i think.
I will add that i like the design and verticality of Hot, masteries are funs too. But this grinding for HP/Elits disappoint me a lot…

Hope something will be done… Fast!

Agree with hurrado. I am a WvW player no map completion and don´t find any kind of jumping puzzles enjoyable… I often play only 30 minutes a day with some exeptions. I group with freinds or go out solo for quick dailes in WvW. HoT feels frustrating. Don´t know how to reach 400 hero points in a resonable timeframe.

Rose Solane.1027:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Eponet.4829:

The difficulty isn’t too high. The fact that by the time you get it, you’ve already gone through more than half the maps is the issue. If they were all put in the first area, there would at least be three maps to experience at our own pace and explore for the sake of exploring instead of because we’re forced to in order to get the class mechanics (Which were designed to fill holes in the base classes) to function fully.

I feel that’s very valuable feedback. Thanks for that insight.

I agree with that this is valuable feedback (looking at most of the other posts in this thread) but I disagree with the content of it. I believe that mastering an elite specialization is something that should take time, just as it takes time to level a character and get the “normal” specializations. The only “valid” point of this post is that it takes exploration to get the elite specialization. I do like to do map completion so that doesn’t bother me, but I can see the point. What I don’t understand is why it is so necessary to rush through three maps to get your elite specialization. But that is probably the main issue here. I believe that the elite specialization is something to work for and will come in time. Many here believe it should have been available at the start of HoT.

No one’s saying it shouldn’t take time. Just that the current amount of time is high considering how many players have multiple alts and the game has recently made strides to become more alt friendly. This decision is not alt friendly.

The lack of communication that ANet considered elite specs as part of the progression (I believe they had only talked about masteries being that progression) and more details on the system didn’t come out until 3 days from launch meant players got the expectation that getting 100% map completion in Central Tyria with regards to hero points would be enough progression to unlock them (or within 2-3 challenges at most) fully. And they based their expectations on the fact that ANet had been more alt friendly lately and the core specs. If this had come out pretty much on top of releasing details on elite specs themselves, the degree of anger would be less as players wouldn’t be upset about learning about that 3 days from launch (on top of the anger at the amount) and would have had plenty of time to judge whether they wanted to buy the game or not. Or get a refund or not.

As for me, I think it is too high, but I can’t really say for sure as I haven’t really been trying for it. I got frustrated after failing to find hero challenges (I had a long day at work so my frustration could have come from being exhausted from the long day) and decided to work toward my personal story and masteries.

This expansion is a big punch in the face to pvp players. For a pvp player to unlock all this on one character is unlikely, but a pvp player to do this on the few characters that aren’t fully developed in pve is ridiculous. Also for me to not be able to play pvp at it’s full extent because some players have a entirely new spec I can’t enjoy any aspect of this game anymore. They should at least make these specs available for everyone in pvp if not everything, without the pve grind of a the century.

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

A simple quest line that allows players to unlock the new elite spec, or simply unlocking the spec by playing the HoT storyline?

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

Eponet.4829:

A better solution would be removing the automatic awarding of the skins, reducing the cost of what’s already on the track, and then putting those skins as unlockables at the end of the track.

People could unlock the mechanics that give a statistical advantage, then, as they progress through and unlock more hero points, get the extra cosmetics. People could unlock the mechanics and actually play as the class they bought the expansion to play as, and then unlock the items that complement that look with the hero points they just happen to gather in the course of normal play.

Which is exactly what a lot of people were expecting considering how many people would responded to the initial 400 hero point announcement critics with “It’s fine, you don’t need all 400, the majority is just cosmetics” or “The bulk of it is unnecessary things”
_________________________________________________________________________

Or, allow players to pick and choose what to unlock so that they can pick a build, and then from there spend the rest of their points to unlock alternate trait combinations/skills.
_________________________________________________________________________

Or even just reorder the unlocking process so that it starts with an adept trait, then a major master trait+minor master, then a major grandmaster+minor grandmaster, then returns to the current system. It feels much, much better when you have a full trait line, even if some of the traits aren’t ideal and then unlock additional options rather than having the feeling of ‘wasting’ slots by not having a single master/grandmaster trait to put in them.

Whalekisses.1345:

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

A simple quest line that allows players to unlock the new elite spec, or simply unlocking the spec by playing the HoT storyline?

This for the first time completed. Evryone, casual, new, PvP, WvW player should be able to unlock one character´s elite by playing as they want.

Give us what we paid for?

Whalekisses.1345:

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

A simple quest line that allows players to unlock the new elite spec, or simply unlocking the spec by playing the HoT storyline?

Just reducing the absurd amount of hero points needed to unlock the traits/skills is enough. I went into this with ~180 points thinking I was safe.

God was I wrong. It was just enough to unlock one adept trait and one utility skill.

Druid is boring enough already. Playing it like that is just pointless.

Wolfric.9380:

Whalekisses.1345:

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

A simple quest line that allows players to unlock the new elite spec, or simply unlocking the spec by playing the HoT storyline?

This for the first time completed. Evryone, casual, new, PvP, WvW player should be able to unlock one character´s elite by playing as they want.

That would make to much sense. It’s funny because what you said is what arena net promised. play how we want, guess they lied.

Substance E.4852:

Whalekisses.1345:

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

A simple quest line that allows players to unlock the new elite spec, or simply unlocking the spec by playing the HoT storyline?

Just reducing the absurd amount of hero points needed to unlock the traits/skills is enough. I went into this with ~180 points thinking I was safe.

God was I wrong. It was just enough to unlock one adept trait and one utility skill.

Druid is boring enough already. Playing it like that is just pointless.

I still don’t agree with this in regards to using these specs in pvp. Unless they made all specs available in pvp and lowered the hero points needed to something like 60 or 100.

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

Solution: Elite Spec mastery.

Level 1: Provides access to a special merchant. Completing Level 1 completes a related achievement, which gives a token you can exchange at the merchant for 400 Hero Points. (This way you can get the elite spec on character of your choice, too, regardless of who you did the mastery unlock on.)
XP Cost: The cost of a normal, base mastery.

Level 2: Completes related achievement, which gives token… you get the idea.
Cost: 1.5 cost of first one.

Level 3: Same as 2.
Cost: 3x cost of first one.

Level 4: Same as 2.
Cost: Same as 3.

Level 5: Same as 2.
Cost: Same as 3.

All the way up to 9, for 9 elite specs.

Basically, set up so that first elite spec is really easy to get. Then if you want to unlock more, it goes up a bit in XP cost. Doing it the challenges way would remain intact, but now you have an alternate way that you can do while playing maguuma. Something more ignorable.

That would be my proposal. Simple and straightforward.

Another way would be a repeatable mastery, but I dunno if their software would allow that.

My biggest problem with the current system isn’t that it will take a while for those who play casually (though, I certainly understand that that will be a problem for some). My issue is that it goes against the “play how you like” philosophy that the game has seemed to embrace. To use myself as an example: I don’t play Necromancer or Thief to any appreciable degree. I have friends who love them and who excel at them, but they have just never clicked with me or my playstyle. When I leveled them, I did so mostly through scrolls and crafting, in the hopes that I’d cross a magical threshold at 80 that would reveal all their glory to me.

Unfortunately, they didn’t.

But then the funniest thing happened. Of all the elite specs that I played during multiple beta weekends for HoT, I spent the majority of my time on Reaper and Daredevil. What your developers did with those professions was pure magic for me. I loved nearly every moment I played on them. For me, Heart of Thorns wasn’t just an opportunity to do more exploring, it was an opportunity to experience these two professions from a completely different angle… one that I was extremely excited to play. In my opinion, Elite Specializations were best when they weren’t used as an opportunity to “play the same profession, but more” (which is why, despite my love for Mesmer and Warrior, I ended up disappointed that Chronomancer and Berserker just felt like +1 versions of their predecessors).

Now, it turns out, I’m going to have to play quite a bit of the core Necro and Thief before I’m allowed to touch Reaper and Daredevil. And it’s made me re-prioritize my strategy, earning Masteries on other professions so that getting Hero Points for the two elites that I was most excited about becomes as minimally frustrating as possible.

In my perfect scenario, Hero Challenges and Hero Points would work similarly to World XP, where the point totals are account-wide, but they can be spent individually for each character.

As I see it, this would result in the following:

• Hero Challenges worldwide would only have to be completed once, ever. This has the side-effect of making subsequent World Completion attempts slightly less repetitive for those with numerous alts.
• Players would still be required to work their way through Masteries and complete the Hero Challenges. But they’d only have to do so once. As has been stated previously, Guild Wars 2 has lauded its “No-Grind” philosophy in the past. And if it makes sense for Masteries and World XP abilities, then it should make equal sense for Hero Challenges.

Keep in mind, I’m not unhappy with Heart of Thorns overall. We’re just one day in, and I’m already drawn in with more story and more places to explore (which are my two great joys in gaming). The design of the Desert Borderlands has me excited for WvW. And yes, actually playing the finished Elite Specs has me excited as well. But making Hero Points function similar to World XP just seems like the piece of the puzzle that’s conspicuously missing.

Whalekisses.1345:

Substance E.4852:

Whalekisses.1345:

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

A simple quest line that allows players to unlock the new elite spec, or simply unlocking the spec by playing the HoT storyline?

Just reducing the absurd amount of hero points needed to unlock the traits/skills is enough. I went into this with ~180 points thinking I was safe.

God was I wrong. It was just enough to unlock one adept trait and one utility skill.

Druid is boring enough already. Playing it like that is just pointless.

I still don’t agree with this in regards to using these specs in pvp. Unless they made all specs available in pvp and lowered the hero points needed to something like 60 or 100.

I don’t know what you’re on about. I just popped my necro in the lobby and she had full access to Reaper with no points put into the spec in pve mode.

If you paid for HoT and can’t use the specs in pvp I would suggest filling out a support ticket.

Substance E.4852:

Whalekisses.1345:

Substance E.4852:

Whalekisses.1345:

Knighthonor.4061:

So anybody have any solutions to this problem?

A simple quest line that allows players to unlock the new elite spec, or simply unlocking the spec by playing the HoT storyline?

Just reducing the absurd amount of hero points needed to unlock the traits/skills is enough. I went into this with ~180 points thinking I was safe.

God was I wrong. It was just enough to unlock one adept trait and one utility skill.

Druid is boring enough already. Playing it like that is just pointless.

I still don’t agree with this in regards to using these specs in pvp. Unless they made all specs available in pvp and lowered the hero points needed to something like 60 or 100.

I don’t know what you’re on about. I just popped my necro in the lobby and she had full access to Reaper with no points put into the spec in pve mode.

If you paid for HoT and can’t use the specs in pvp I would suggest filling out a support ticket.

I’ll be sure to do that seeing how I have no access to the elite spec at all.

Funny that Gaile who seems to be one of the responsible for this time-sink only seek out to quote the 1% in this thread.

I give the complaints again: I know how this game works. It doesn’t matter if its a new map, or obviously not a new expansion either: it’s basically the same game and the mechanics of events, mobs etc is just. the. same. I bought Heart of Thorns for the specializations for my characters because I like to use it in wvw and have fun as I did in beta. Now I need to force myself to really just stress around in Maguuma Jungle seeking shortest path to the hero points. This was a map I looked forward to explore without any sense of supreme award in the end but that sense is now destroyed by progress.

I have two options: play pvp where my elite is unlocked and enjoy it there, or just ignore the fact that HoT+Revenant+specializations is live, and just run around as usual in wvw. Wow, such a great expansion!

Why can’t we have another option: the option to just fully unlock elite specialization at once with the expansion itself. And if you complete the maguuma jungle hero points you get a full new glimmering armor or something, that would have give everyone what they want.

wel as a ’’veteran’’ player since launch , i was dissapointed with the way the hero point system works (to unlock them & how) . especialy bcuz i didn’t play that mutch of the new content still so far , but i went in the verdant brink with 1 of my 100% world completion toons , actualy with my main , witch is a warrior … now i have no intention in learning the elite spec of my warrior , witch is that awefull berserker i’ll only be running 4 alite builds MAX . BUT with all the classes i want to have that elite build on i have close to only 10 hero point’s left after i had spend training all the basics , now i ofcoarse used all my remaining 204 (or so) hero point’s i had left of my 100% completion toons , & i’m still 46.7% (or something like that) completed of the elite spec ….. a toon i played on for 3 years ….. now has to grind for i dont know how long to even get the elite spec running ? … RLY ? look the masteries are great (y) GG with that , but holy cow , the time/effort/grinding i’ll need to do to even get my 4(MAX) classes to elite & be able to FINALY run a fresh & new build with is horrible … sorry to say this but this concept is rediculous :s . i know it’s the new content don’t get me wrong , & i love the new area’s (somewhat) BUT don’t forget : this is not the only content in GW2 !!! there’s mutch mutch MUTCH more i can be doing & will be doing in gw2 so i gues for me to get those 4 (not mains for now) toons up it’ll take me a loooooooooooong time
BTW witch is not so fun when you rly wanted to play the new specs … trust me
cheerz guyz & arenanet pls bro’s cmooon listend to the comunity verry closely now !

Suggestion: REFUND HERO POINTS

I just saw a post in the core game discussion (so I can’t take credit) and it was about refunding hero points. The gist was that we could refund points to be able to put them into the elite trait line. Kind of like what we used to be able to do with trait points with the vendor in WvW when they were more permanent. There is still the inconvenience of having to go to specific vendor when you change your build frequently, but at least this way people could have access to that specialization much sooner. There are 2 trait lines I would never regret getting rid of on a couple of characters just so I could use the elite specs. Grind for everything else, just not that!!!

I preordered base game, I preordered HoT. Its the release day of HoT and I wanna quit the game and im probably not gonna pay again.The expansion grind hero point system killed it for me. i mean omg wtf…who designed this crap hero point system. I only have time to do wvw/pvp. Thats the only thing i enjoy about mmos. im not gonna be forced into spending extra time in crappy pve which i hate from the bottom of my heart

Hero point grind is an absolute joke thanks anet