Guild Wars 2

I’d be playing the game with my elite specialization and avoiding all the stuff that I hate, such as the hero points.

People are complaining because a lot of people don’t have the time to waste to unlock this content which was largely the reason they paid for the expansion to begin with, and/or they hate the notion of even playing PvE in such a face-smash way to optimize play-time for rewards instead of going at their own pace.

I’ve had so little free time to even complete the prologue story. I don’t understand how people have so much time to be able to make so much progress without having any responsibilities in the real world.

This is why you’re seeing people complain; the content used to be designed to let people jump in and jump out and play on their own schedules. The elite specs are not designed in such a way, and seeing as they have no pertinence to the jungle theme, it makes no sense to wall them off like this.

Galen Grey.4709:

Brownies.2901:

400 hero points is a lot of points to get when you completed world exploration years ago and had been using the points for crafting since then. I’m not sure how this idea got through QA testing but the pacing is just awful.

Why so many? On top of that exp gain from dungeons and other things seem to be so much lower now =’(

its not a lot of point, its just 40 challenges in the new area… though to be fair there is the issue that some of those challenges require you to unlock certain masteries before you can reach them… that however needs only be done once since its account wide.

what is frustrating tough is a) to find the points b) you dont find out if you have the requirements until you get there c) you have to do the same process for all alts as well

imo the grind would be less awful if you’d only had to do it once for your account and not for every char but even then its just not fun and you know, thats kinda what a game is supposed to be…it shouldnt be work – thats what you get money for, not pay for

I feel like a rat in a gigantic maze filled with dead ends and walls trying to go after the cheese. The ‘cheese’ being hero points. I am now rushing on main and will rush on my alts, so I am totally not payiing attention to story line, art, graphics, etc; I am grinding blindly just so I can get my elite and start to actually ENJOY the game. GG?

All these hero points need you to have masteries grinded and that should not be how it is imo….

Elite specs should NOT be tied to masteries, period.

A number like 40 seems like it is attainable in a small amount of time but in reality that is not the case. This elite grind is job and I do that enough in RL tyvm.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ragnarox.9601:

Heart of Thorns:
- If you want elite spec = grind
- If you want masteries = grind
- If you want to do story = grind
- If you want heropoints you need 20 ppl to kill champion
- Did I mention grind?

So where’s the fun gone? Doing things 100 times in a row is not fun.

or you know…. you could say

- if you want elite spec = earn Hero points
- if you want masteries = do any content that awards XP
- if you want to do story = unlock masteries
- if you want hero points = do challenges
- why do people keep calling this grind? I mean if arenanet did like you’re suggesting and remove all that you’re calling grind which would be events, adventures, challenges, raids, and anything else in the jungle that gives XP / Hero points… Exactly what will you be using your Elite specialization for?

Grey,

You and all who are opposing the complaints of others on this thread are in the minority yet your concerns are also valid. Finding common ground by recognizing what aspects of the complaints are legitimate is the only way this will be settled. It will not be settled by reframing the statements of others, or trying to tell people how their complaint is unjustified. Doing so is just as selfish as everyone else who wants their way (i.e. getting something for nothing). Instead seek common ground where the legitimate concerns of both the whiners and the satisfied players matter. Doing this would be more respectful; however, if you do not care about being respectful then you are doing nothing, but stirring the pot, which degrades your own credibility.

Its so simple.

Don’t gate what lets you personalize your character abilities. (how you play)

Gate status symbols, achievements and progression intended to provide very long term benefits (masteries).

I’ve never seen a game expansion do such a terrible job of recognizing this concept.

Nemesis.6938:

Galen Grey.4709:

Brownies.2901:

400 hero points is a lot of points to get when you completed world exploration years ago and had been using the points for crafting since then. I’m not sure how this idea got through QA testing but the pacing is just awful.

Why so many? On top of that exp gain from dungeons and other things seem to be so much lower now =’(

its not a lot of point, its just 40 challenges in the new area… though to be fair there is the issue that some of those challenges require you to unlock certain masteries before you can reach them… that however needs only be done once since its account wide.

what is frustrating tough is a) to find the points b) you dont find out if you have the requirements until you get there c) you have to do the same process for all alts as well

imo the grind would be less awful if you’d only had to do it once for your account and not for every char but even then its just not fun and you know, thats kinda what a game is supposed to be…it shouldnt be work – thats what you get money for, not pay for

while you do need to do the challenges on each alt thats not where the “issue” itself lies.. I mean i hope no one finds doing 40 challenges to fully unlock an elite profession excessive. The issue lies with masteries and thats something you just need to do once as its account bound. once you get that is no more requirements issue.

Why is it work? I mean lets assume you have all your elite professions unlocked, what would you be doing right now? Let me guess playing exactly the same content!

Rupture.7683:

Grey,

You and all who are opposing the complaints of others on this thread are in the minority yet your concerns are also valid. Finding common ground by recognizing what aspects of the complaints are legitimate is the only way this will be settled. It will not be settled by reframing the statements of others, or trying to tell people how their complaint is unjustified. Doing so is just as selfish as everyone else who wants their way (i.e. getting something for nothing). Instead seek common ground where the legitimate concerns of both the whiners and the satisfied players matter. Doing this would be more respectful; however, if you do not care about being respectful then you are doing nothing, but stirring the pot, which degrades your own credibility.

You misunderstand me, I am not trying to reframe no ones statement. My issue is people have got so used to throwing the word grind around that merely playing the game is being called grind just because there is a goal involved.

You want common ground, fine, I’d love that too but first step towards that is to cut the huge level of hyperbole people seem to love using so much.

Respect goes both ways… people defend things they love. If you got to a fan of a sports team and tell them the player they’re a fun of is a thief just because you think tickets should be cheaper isnt going to create any common ground you’re going to get a retort of how that statment is false.

I assume what the guy wanted to say is how it takes too long in his opinion to unlock elite specialization… fine I could work with that but thats not what he said he essentially said playing the game is a grind and I just dont agree with that statement, a statement thats not only untrue but does great damage to the game i love. First step is correct that statement. When said person feels respectful enough to tackle the proper issues at hand I will be happy to discuss that too.

Xernth.8561:

Its so simple.

Don’t gate what lets you personalize your character abilities. (how you play)

Gate status symbols, achievements and progression intended to provide very long term benefits (masteries).

I’ve never seen a game expansion do such a terrible job of recognizing this concept.

And here we have a winner!

Xernth.8561:

Its so simple.

Don’t gate what lets you personalize your character abilities. (how you play)

Gate status symbols, achievements and progression intended to provide very long term benefits (masteries).

I’ve never seen a game expansion do such a terrible job of recognizing this concept.

Remember the previous trait system where you had to unlock traits. Did Anet actually think about how they could make it worse with elite specs?

DaShi.1368:

Xernth.8561:

Its so simple.

Don’t gate what lets you personalize your character abilities. (how you play)

Gate status symbols, achievements and progression intended to provide very long term benefits (masteries).

I’ve never seen a game expansion do such a terrible job of recognizing this concept.

Remember the previous trait system where you had to unlock traits. Did Anet actually think about how they could make it worse with elite specs?

It seems like it, yea.

My big gripe is not that Elite Spec costs hero points, it’s that they far more hero points than the abilities granted are worth! You are paying as much for 1 trait line and a small number of skills as you pay to unlock ALL other skills and traits. For that comparative cost, the Elite Specs should be so OP that you would HAVE to play them to be competitive.

Setting the cost to 2x or even 3x normal for a trait line (120 or 180 HP) would be reasonable. Over 6 1/2 times the cost of a full trait line? Are ANY Elite Specs good enough to justify that cost?

The issues as I see them:

• People have been waiting a long time for new ways to play the professions. For some, the old builds have been “old” for over three years. The HoT reveal was nine months before release. Both of those represent a long time waiting for new ways to play a character.
• While Elite Specs were represented as horizontal progression, the amount of points needed to attain them were not revealed until, what, 4 days before release. Before that — during all the waiting and anticipation — there were two precedents. One was the amount of points needed for core trait unlock. The other was the data mined amount, which was, I believe, 170 points (or thereabouts). Both precedents — which were the only information available — create the impression one could start HoT with an Elite Spec unlocked before doing anything.
• The bombshell regarding how many points it would take to unlock came at the last minute. Not only that, but no one knew until release how much Mastery completion would impact getting to the HoT Challenges.
• Players who ran around like crazy hitting all the HC’s in the base game before release had every reason to expect they would be able to start HoT with the new specs already unlocked. Also, they had no reason to expect they would need to do more HC’s in HOT until a few days ago.
• By valuing HoT challenges @ 10x the ones in the base game, the efforts of those who ran around getting the base game Hero Points were devalued.

The combination of all of these factors led to a mental climate of anticipation and expectation. The reality, when it finally came to light, was and is a big disappointment to those complaining, and doubtless to others who are not. I’ve said it before and I’m saying it now, ANet would be well-served by employing someone with a background in psychology.

What can be learned from the firestorm.

• ANet could be more up-front about their intentions. Letting the expectations of immediate access linger until the last minute was a mistake. They didn’t know the exact details? What would be wrong with, “Elite Specs are intended as a form of horizontal progression that will require you to play through some of the HoT content to obtain. We’re not looking to make this a lengthy delay, but don’t expect to just jump into HoT and play an Elite Spec as soon as it releases. We’ll provide details as we develop a firmer plan.”
• Elite Specs could be unlocked solely with HoT challenges and base game Hero Points could have been used for something else.
• The Hero Points from the base game could have been sufficient to unlock the traits and skills and the HoT challenges could have been used to unlock cosmetics. In addition to the armor/weapon skins, a glider skin might have been a good idea.

I’ll post more thoughts later if more thoughts come. That’s all I’ve got for now. I especially have not addressed the WvW concerns — and that’s mostly because I’m not sure how to, yet.

How Rytlock became a Herald:

One day, he fell into a dimensional fissure. This fissure is filled with air containing mist energy. After inhaling the air, Rytlock begin to fart mist energy. Rytlock is now a Herald.

No, really. He went into the mists to collect 400 Hero Points. That’s why he was gone for so long.

Elite Specializations have no story or lore. They are just there for the sake of offering players more build options. After all, our character were born with talents and magical powers that can’t be explained.

Instead of just collecting 400 Hero Points, Elite Specializations should have taken us, the players, on a journey enriched in lore that pertain to each of the Elite Specializations.

Halcyon.5340:

How Rytlock became a Herald:

One day, he fell into a dimensional fissure. This fissure is filled with air containing mist energy. After inhaling the air, Rytlock begin to fart mist energy. Rytlock is now a Herald.

No, really. He went into the mists to collect 400 Hero Points. That’s why he was gone for so long.

Elite Specializations have no story or lore. They are just there for the sake of offering players more build options. After all, our character were born with talents and magical powers that can’t be explained.

Instead of just collecting 400 Hero Points, Elite Specializations should have taken us, the players, on a journey enriched in lore that pertain to each of the Elite Specializations.

Now see this I agree with 100%, I love how they did precursor crafting, would have been great if unlocking elite specialization had a similar method of unlock. Perhaps collecting teachings or constructing a weapon and imbuding it with energies that unlock your hidden potential or something.

Of course such a system would still have ended up locked behind masteries so not sure this would have made many people any happier but it would have been a much more exciting system imho.

Halcyon.5340:

No, really. He went into the mists to collect 400 Hero Points. That’s why he was gone for so long.

I lol’d. Sadly, it’a a true story.

does P4F accounts , counts towards the demografic for the population’s segments and the content that will get +1% more resources /manpower , till the next x-pack ?

At first I made a stand alone post, but it didn’t get any feedback at all, so I’ll repost it here, where all the people seems to hangout.
In short:
I suggest and request to make Hero Points Account bound, rather than Soulbound.

The rest wall of text of my thoughts in the original post:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Hero-Points-suggestion-request/first#post5648621

My feeling about the elite traitline’s requirements is a big fat “…eh.”

400 hero points is a massive, massive sink. Even my main, the one that has done silverwastes and dungeons repeatedly, gained two legendary precurses with, ‘only’ had enough points to go halfway into the elite traitline. The hero point challenges give solid amounts of points though, so while it feels obnoxious you’re able to get a little way in fairly quickly. Once you get past that massive 60 point hurdle, of course…

Once you get to hero challenges you don’t need masteries for (and some that need masteries to get to) you start the challenge and… you discover (with no warning) this it’s a group event and if you’re trying to solo it you’re going to be mauled rather nastily. I like that bosses are not solo-able, however it makes trying to unlock them solo a collossal chore at best.
It’s doubly compounded because you need mastery points to get to/attempt some of the hero challenges. I’m finding mastery points are actually pretty difficult to get, because while there are events, there doesn’t seem to be that many, and they’re long/lacking rewards. It sometimes feels I could get 2 tyrian mastery points (themselves requiring you to level up your character again, because… reasons?) in the time it would take to get partially to a single maguuma point. I’ve just managed to get all three of the reaper minor traits unlocked in about… twelves hours playtime, beelining for the hero events. My necromancer had 49 traits to start with, so I’d probably have just unlocked the first minor trait. This is the first time I’m using the ‘new’ skill unlock system from scratch too, and being forced to pick certain traits and skillpoint before I can get the ones I want is another downer. I’m simply not enjoying trying to unlock the elite tree for this single character. I understand the masteries are account wide but it’s still going to be a drag getting all the kitten ed points needed for my various characters.

For my less played characters I think I will just simply not bother trying to unlock the elite traitlines, the current system is so artificially lengthened.

Don’t misunderstand me-I think it’s good you don’t just get it dropped into your lap, it helps you appreciate it, much like going out and hunting down an elite skill in guildwars 1 was. Other people have mentioned, this feels far too grindy for a traitline that is designed to simply offer a playstyle and not actually be superior to the class it’s expanding upon. The effort : reward ratio is far too heavily slanted towards the effort side right now, I feel.

I really enjoy the scrapper specialization however the class engineer and specialization scrapper should be able to weapon swap between the standard usable weapon skills and the scrapper weapon skills and im not talking about the elixer gun or flame thrower i mean able to swap between rifle and pistols and hammer skills because i would like to weapon swap during combat on the scrapper.

I’m sorry, I don’t like it. The Elite Specs look like so much fun! But I can’t play them because I need over 60 hero points just to unlock weapon usage, 75 for the next part, and so on. Really? I can’t LEVEL with my Trickster Thief and play him, and learn him while moving up? I have to wait and hope to God it MIGHT be fun and worth the hero point grind?

I can appreciate grind in an MMO, I really can, but this is ridiculous. You’re doing what WoW did: Locking everything behind atunements and other forms of grind just so we can get around and play the fun stuff. Wildstar DID THIS, and WHAT DID IT DO TO THE GAME? Yeah. Not a good story. No one wants Vanilla WoW back except for the people with rose-colored sunglasses…

I feel that the revenant class could have a bit more weapon variaty perhaps a 2 hand sword skill for melee strikes.

Let me see this one solution that might work

Add Hero points to the gem store they said that they want it ‘hard working’ right? well what do you think money is? money is the universal language is it not? people work hard for money right? so that should be the equal trade beside business talks the money language that way the player has to give something up and Anet gets the profit to it’s a equal trade and thus Anet don’t have to change anything to the game they can leave the whole map alone and how they get hero points

Or they can lower the champs down to vets and lower the cost down or turn the whole you earn Mastery into another new Mastery to earn you’re Elite since I find the whole Mastery system not that bad doing like you finish a Mastery you get a hero point or something but that my idea I have no idea what Anet is thinking right now I know they want people to adept to it right? but they have to know some players don’t like change that much even no matter how many times you tell them or growl at them they can’t force a player to change or get better at the game so they have to look for alternative to this solution or else they will lose players who will look for different online game so whatever Anet is going to do I wish them luck they are going to need it

It’s not that I would like to unlock things without playing the content. I just want to be able to explore the content as a Herald Revenant. It’s crummy that by the time we can play around with Herald, we’ve basically explored most of the content already. Besides, giving us the elite spec earlier would allow us to enjoy the content at our own pace instead of rushing through just to play as the elite spec.

I didn’t wanna post since it’s so early into the expansion but I also feel like 400 hero points is way too much for the elite specs. I’ve spent a fair few hours on the Revenant and I’ve only managed around 60 points out of the 400 and that’s spending a lot of the time going for the hero challenges and trying to get them through WvW, the thought of doing the rest then doing my other characters is driving me mad. I love the game, but I don’t have the energy for that.

I’ve already let it be known that I dislike the current situation, and I’ve explained a lot of why I feel that way, so let’s skip that part and go right to “How would I fix it?”

• Reduce the cost of the new specs to 1/2 what it is now, 200 points.
• Turn all Hero Point Champions into Vets.

And…. for the fix, that’s it. However, let’s go a bit further, shall we?

• Find a new use for excess Hero Points. This one’s entirely optional because they DO have a use until you’ve earned everything, and even then they’re still part of map completion. It won’t hurt anyone to have extra points just sitting around, anyone that does all HP challenges will have that anyway.

• Add a Challenge Mote to all downscaled Hero Point locations that allows a party (1-5 people) enter an instance and take on the full Champion version of the fight. Each one gives a minor token that’s part of a collection to get a special title and maybe a small cosmetic item. (A halo of thorns, for example.)This way, people can still take on the harder fights if they want to, and still get something to show for it.

Refund me 150 Hero Points I wasted already for the new elite spec
Make it 200 to fully unlock it.

Everyone will be happy.

CaelestiaEmpyrea.2617:

My big gripe is not that Elite Spec costs hero points, it’s that they far more hero points than the abilities granted are worth! You are paying as much for 1 trait line and a small number of skills as you pay to unlock ALL other skills and traits. For that comparative cost, the Elite Specs should be so OP that you would HAVE to play them to be competitive.

Setting the cost to 2x or even 3x normal for a trait line (120 or 180 HP) would be reasonable. Over 6 1/2 times the cost of a full trait line? Are ANY Elite Specs good enough to justify that cost?

This annoys me to no end. I have to grind millions of xp, to be able to stand in poison, to be able to unlock hero points, to be able to gain a trait that adds a whopping two whole seconds to Shield of Courage, a trait I do not want and will never use.

Just brilliant design here. For the first time in a long time I don’t have the desire to play anymore. These specs are too generic for the cost and are often no better than what you already have.

I just finished my Dragonhunter today. I would say moderate is the effort required. It wasn’t too hard, wasn’t too easy.

Maybe a slight lessening of hero points required but not too much.

So I’ve had nothing but free time to play over the last 2 days and my revenant is now 20 hours old (about 3-5 hours of AFKing in there too). I’ve managed to complete 11 hero points and my Herald is now 27.5% complete. I hate PVE and I find it mind-numbingly boring but I honestly don’t think it’s as bad as you guys are making it out to be. You put the work in, you get rewarded with more build diversity, a new weapon and new play-styles. It’s really not that bad at all and this is coming from somebody who hasn’t done an hour of PvE in GW2 for the past 2 years, and I’ll probably never do PvE again when I have unlocked the elite specs I want. Oh and I probably won’t finish my rev’s elite spec for another week or two due to less available play time but I still don’t have too much of a problem with that. Those of you who play the game for PvE and are complaining I absolutely cannot make sense of that in the slightest… it’s about the journey not the end goal.

Pyriel.4370:

I just finished my Dragonhunter today. I would say moderate is the effort required. It wasn’t too hard, wasn’t too easy.

Maybe a slight lessening of hero points required but not too much.

It’s not the effort that bothers me, it’s the time required. I’ve played for about 9 hours on my Revenant at level 80 doing the Maguuma stuff, WvW etc primarily going for the hero points and I’m still under 100/400 for Herald, in 9 hours. Going at this kind of pace it’ll take me nearly 40 hours for one Elite spec and that doesn’t include me going to play the halloween stuff or exploring the maps for fun. Coupled with my plan to have the Elites on a fair few characters, it’s going to take way too long in my opinion.

The masteries I have no issue with, they were supposed to be the thing to work towards for a long time with HoT. The Elite specs were never hinted to take quite that long.

I know it doesn’t seem like a grind to a lot of people, but for Guild Wars 2 it’s pretty grindy.

The following is a list of suggestions from myself, some are stolen from others, but I will highlight them all with pros and cons:

1. Allow the specs to be played throughout the new HoT areas, instead of having to nearly complete the area to fully unlock the spec
-This suggestion seems to be what a lot of PVE players would like to see, they have been playing with the same build for 3 years up to the expansion, and would like to be able to spice things up and continue through the story/map completion etc… while learning the new class.
-An argument against this has been: “the specialization is available at under 400 HP so just take the traits you unlock until you get the full thing.” That discounts the fact that people will be playing with a largely subpar build, and WvW players will be shafted because the build will likely be all but useless, largely due to not being able to choose which traits to unlock.

2. Create a PVP reward track that allows players to get HP, ~100 per track completion
-This is a suggestion I would like to see implemented personally, as I primarily play pvp and wvw, but occasionally cross into world bosses/fractals/dungeons with friends, so I would like to be able to unlock the specs in a game mode I enjoy playing, and I’m sure I’m not alone in this crowd.
-100 may seem like a lot of HP for a reward track completion, but having to do the reward track 4 times per character with the current system seems reasonable, that way people can say “we worked for our specs,” because 4 reward tracks does take quite a few matches.
-A potential issue is this may lead to pvers meandering into pvp, which does anger a lot of the more skilled pvpers who don’t like having people that don’t understand how to play pvp on their teams.
-It could also lead to people farming quick join, however the rank points earned there are lower than unranked, so it would take them a long while to complete 4 reward tracks. Maybe to prevent farming this, make it so rank points can only be gained from unranked/ranked arena. This will negatively impact the prior issue though, as then the PVErs who would rather come to PVP, maybe to unlock the spec before doing the new area, would essentially be forced to play with the pvpers that don’t want them.

3. Increase the hero point gain in WVW
-Hear me out on this, I know it isn’t as bad as it was first predicted, however it still takes around 50 hours of PVD on each character to unlock the new line. That is a long time, and this has led to some zergs cooperating in normal wvw to essentially karma train, which destroys the whole purpose of wvw being a massive player vs player area.
-EOTM is filled with players all out zerging for essentially one purpose, getting HP, badlands players often get the shaft though because other zergs from OG and FR often have much more populated player bases so they can HP train while crushing a smaller BL zerg on occasion, giving them an advantage of more WXP per hour, while badlands has to work extra hard. I say the faster it is to get the HP done and out of the way, the faster we can be back to playing normal WVW, or even just go straight back to normal wvw and end up with the elite specs in a reasonable amount of time just playing.
-It will also be a slight relief to folks that primarily roam, because it would take them ages to get one elite spec under the current system.

4. Make Elite Specs Baseline
-The elite specs don’t really outshine many of the prior core spec lines in a way that many players think that they really are working too hard to unlock something that is not really worth the effort put in.
-The most common counter argument is: “Why should they be handed to you on a silver platter.” Well in all reality they aren’t. First, you paid fifty dollars for an expansion, fifty dollars that at some point in your life you ideally worked a real job to earn. So it is logical to me that many players want to be able to use what they paid for and not have to “work for it” in a game, which should really be about playing and having fun. When a game gets to the point that you have to work to be able to play a core mechanic, you might as well just get a second part time job and earn some real life money on the side than work virtually.
-A more reasonable counterpoint is: “There should be some feeling of progression.” The issue in large with this is that feeling just is not created as the specs are largely gated behind having to play PVE content, and having to get masteries and struggle through content that isn’t enjoyable to players that don’t do open world, or to players that like to go at a casual pace. And is that not the point of the mastery system- to progress your character, I for one enjoy playing the gliding stuff, but hate navigating the new map in a mad rush to unlock what I want for WVW, fractals, dungeons etc…

5. Go back to the old system where you could go to a vendor and refund hero points to switch up your trait line for a few silver.
-This is an idea I saw presented earlier today, so I kinda stole it, but I REALLY LIKE THIS ONE. Essentially you go to a vendor and purchase a refund for hero points and can spend them in unlocking different trait lines. People will still want to get hero points for convenience of not having to revisit the vendor every time they change builds, and it will allow folks to play how they want, keeping the current system to unlock the mastery skins, while allowing players to play the new content in whatever way they would like.
-I haven’t seen the counter-argument to this, though I imagine there is some elitist crumudgeon out there that would gladly come up with one. ( I welcome folks to input their thoughts, I for one would like to see, and if the devs end up implementing something along the lines of this I would like to see it polished… same goes for all the other suggestions.)

6. Allow Hero Points to be purchased through other currencies.
-I have seen many suggestions floating around about having an exchange of spirit shards for hero points, gems for hero points, gold for hero points etc…
-The thing I see as benefits of having hero points being purchasable, is you can have them in exchange for fractal/dungeon tokens, for spirit shards that seem to build up like crazy, allowing people who do those game modes, but not open world PVE or WVW an option that will allow them to continue dungeon running and fractal running in peace.
-Gems I’m kind of torn on, I think this would look bad on A-net, because plenty of players would be prone to buy out of frustration more than just pure support of the game, but at the same time, some people would rather pay a little bit than waste time doing map completion content they don’t enjoy, because after all, time is money.

7. Lower the amount of hero points required to unlock the elite spec, keep 400 for the skins.
-People really enjoy cosmetics in guild wars, that’s why people are willing to work for legendary weapon skins, armor skins etc… It is informally known as fashion wars for a reason.
-Progression and status can be shown through weapon/armor skins, not to mention some of the new skins are worth the time to get, please just don’t make players have to wait for the new core mechanics along with the skins.
-Elitists will argue: “Well veteran players that do all this “hard” work should be able to play more better than all you pugs that don’t like farming hero points in this new map that I’m leet at.” Veteran players get there status from achievement points, weapon skins, fractal level, pvp rank, wvw rank etc… not from being able to play a class that is gated off to a large group of people that, just frankly, don’t enjoy playing the same content as them, or enjoy playing it differently.

These are some of the suggestions I have made, or come across, please feel free to add your own, mixing and matching the suggestions also works, lets let the devs have something to work off of so Gaile isn’t cherrypicking through the thread to find the one person that says “its working as intended.”

MyriadStars.5679:

Farzo.8410:

It’s an MMORPG, you’re bound to grind and work towards your rewards.

That’s exactly what people meant: Anet made false promises. They said GW2 is different from traditional MMORPGs, but in the end, it’s just another MMORPG.

They changed GW2. It was no traditional mmorpg. It never had gated progression. You could choose the part you liked and now it’s a complete different direction the game is going.

hurrado.2346:

7. Lower the amount of hero points required to unlock the elite spec, keep 400 for the skins.
-People really enjoy cosmetics in guild wars, that’s why people are willing to work for legendary weapon skins, armor skins etc… It is informally known as fashion wars for a reason.
-Progression and status can be shown through weapon/armor skins, not to mention some of the new skins are worth the time to get, please just don’t make players have to wait for the new core mechanics along with the skins.

I really like this suggestion, actually. My major problem is with not being able to play my elite spec without swapping a full trait line for one with a bunch of gaps. If I could earn all my traits by like 150 points, spend the next 150 on the new utilities, then the last 100 on cosmetics, that would be perfect.

In the 25 hours following the release of expansion (so, 12:01am Pacific on the 23rd until 1:00am Pacific on the 24th) I had been logged into GW2 for at least 12 cumulative, non-consecutive hours.

Two of those hours were spent on my ‘former main’ — a Warrior — hanging out in Lion’s Arch. I (foolishly) stockpiled several hundred coin purses and seed pouches as well as dozens of rare and masterwork gear bags. I also had a couple dozen of each of the four flavors of boxes from daily Tequ kills. Nobody should ever do this. By Zeus’ beard was my inventory a trainwreck. This isn’t the fault of the game, though, this was me being a lazy hoarder. I’m just mentioning this as an admission I wasn’t grinding for the full amount of time.

Apart from the aforementioned 2 hours, and one round of Mad King Says, I have been in the jungle on my fledgling Reaper. It should be noted that I hate base Necromancer. Not because it’s underpowered (even though it kind of is) and not because it doesn’t have any group synergy (even though it doesn’t) but simply because it’s boring. My best loadout involves sending out the locusts (I like to say “NOT THE BEES!” every time I push warhorn 5 because it gives me something to do) and then mashing my 1 key. Dagger, Shroud, Lich, it doesn’t matter. Send out the bees, mash 1 — That’s what 3 years of gameplay evolution has led Necromancer to. Is it effective? Mostly. Is it fun? Never.

Here are some lowlights from my adventures into Reaper frustration, for any that are interested:

• I had 220 points going into the expansion. Prior to the announcement earlier this week, I figured I was “safe” to be able to unlock a good chunk, if not all, of Reaper. By the time I finished filling out all of the traits and skills for the core class (which is a stupid requirement since we can’t use all that stuff at the same time anyway) I had 57 points left. Not even quite enough for the Reaper unlock.
• I fumbled my way to the first Hero Point I came across in the Jungle. It required a bit of exploration, the mobs were a little dense and frustrating, but the experience wasn’t that bad. I found the thing (in the ruins south of the starting point) and pushed F and got my 10 points. I was disheartened by being forced to waste 163 points on junk that I wasn’t going to use for the core class, but things were looking up. I had Reaper ‘unlocked’ and getting that first challenge wasn’t miserable. I could do this.
• I equipped Reaper. I didn’t even get the shroud — that comes in another 15 points. Whatever, I equipped it, got the skin (which is slick, love that skin) and slapped it on my ascended sword. The greatsword is amazingly well designed. I can let theorycrafters pick apart the numbers all they want, but the feel of the thing is just fantastic. Each one of the 5 weapon skills has purpose, reasons to push or to not push, to burn immediately or wait for an opening, to create or abuse field synergy. As a Necromancer, this is an especially amazing feeling. Remember, all we’re used to is mashing 1. Getting 2-4 (and having 5 be something other than creating a persistent DoT) is a huge deal for us. Anet did solid on this. It’s just fun. Something on Necromancer is actually fun!
• I “find” a few more Hero Challenges and by “find” I mostly mean “Well, I see them on the map, but I can’t get to them because I don’t have the masteries necessary.” but I do get to a couple that I can reach and solo. One was a jumping thing that would have been easier with shroom bouncing, but I was able to clamber up the stepped wall. Another was a bunch of wasps followed by a Veteran fight that was easy enough to sidestep and whittle down. In the course of this, I unlock basic gliding.
• I get my Reaper Shroud unlock. I don’t know why the entirety of a minor trait simply unlocks the class mechanic that should be part of the initial Reaper investment, but whatever. Again, I have more buttons! The new shroud, like the Greatsword, offers a lot of flexibility and a good, responsive, fun toolkit. My days of mashing 1 are over!
• More and more of the Hero Challenges I encounter are either unreachable, unusable (because if I glide to the point I’m still not ‘worthy’) or are Champion fights, which park me squarely on my bum until enough people congregate to make the fight possible. This could be as little as a few seconds or as long as several dozen minutes depending on how out-of-the-way the Challenge is. If the points aren’t ludicrously out of the way, they’re in or behind thickets of several dozen enemies, hard to solo pull, and hard to run through or from.

After 10+ hours of playing in the Jungle, I have unlocked the following for Reaper: The elite specialization itself (which I had 95% of already, going into the Jungle), the first Minor Trait, the first skill, and the first adept trait. That’s it. I can hamstring myself by effectively not having any traits (Augury of Death doesn’t do much since I only have one shout to use, and it’s my heal, and Shroud Knight does nothing except grant me the class mechanic that I should have gotten at 60 points with the Greatsword) in one of my lines, or I can go back to the “full build” of Dagger/Borehorn and resume mashing 1 until my fingernail falls off but at least I’ll have 3 trait lines like a level 80 is supposed to and expected to have.

This ludicrous point grind is forcing me to choose between ‘fun’ and ‘function.’ Is there any possible, rational explanation as to why a formerly “max-level” character is forced to make this choice, other than to simply pad out content via grinding? I don’t want something for nothing, but is it too much to ask for the Elite Specs to be acceptable alternatives out of the gate rather than direct downgrades until several hundred hero points are spent getting a full trait line?

When going from level 1 to 80, it makes sense to slowly fill in new functions, mechanics, and perks. It makes sense — as you level a character, it gets more powerful. It doesn’t make sense that a level 80 is forced to reduce the power of his or her character in order to experience the so-called “horizontal progression.” There’s nothing horizontal about downgrading yourself and then having to scale a mountain to get back up to an “alternative, optional” playstyle.

It’s taken me over 10 hours to go from “totally hobbled” to “still totally hobbled” because my only trait affects skills I don’t have access to, and those skills (and the rest of the traits I’m ‘sacrificing’ by using an incomplete spec) are still several hundred arduous “Hero Points” away. It’s simply not fun. It isn’t fun to feel like I have to choose between being underpowered but liking my new playstyle, or going back to my former function but being bored to tears because core Necro is a one-dimensional snore-fest.

And all of this is on my main. I’m not even thinking about my alts at this point. I wanted to try a Staff/Pistol+Pistol Daredevil. Nope. I wanted to tome a Revenant to 80 and try Herald. Nope. Dragon Hunter? I wasn’t impressed with it during the BWE, but thought maybe I’d still try it. Nope. This feels like a complete about face and the total antithesis of what I thought GW2 was supposed to be about. I thought cosmetics and rare loot were supposed to be the hook, the timesink, the reason to grind. I didn’t think basic character functionality and a major selling point of the expansion were supposed to be awards handed out only after ‘beating’ most of the game. At this rate, you should make it so that people can’t use their Elite Specialization until after they’ve completed the raid, in addition to the Jungle.

Sorry for the wall-of-text. I just feel like when Gaile quotes out a powergamer that did “everything he wanted” (the phrasing tells me he got one grandmaster, didn’t get the other two, and didn’t get the elite skill, so even that guy wasn’t ‘done’) in 18 hours and is all “There, see, it’s doable if you don’t eat or sleep, and only use the bathroom at your desk, everything’s fine!” then it’s only fair to give a detailed account from the perspective of someone who is utterly frustrated by this expansion release, when I should be excited and enjoying it.

TL;DR: I’ve spent at least 10 hours in the Jungle within the first 25 hours of release. I still don’t have a mathematically viable elite spec. I’m not even remotely close. I still won’t be mathematically viable for dozens more in-game hours, given my current rate of progress and the way the rewards are staggered. I won’t be able to play 10 hours per day every day. Friday was an anomaly and a launch celebration for me. Today, for example, I haven’t had time to get in-game at all. I was crazy-exited for this expansion. I couldn’t wait for it to come out. Now I have to seriously consider if I want to log in.

Tbf how I got my dragonhunter maxed was going around doing hero points in the maguuma (10 points per challenge) on my char with World Completion.

I can see why others would have complaints though but it isn’t that huge an issue for me personally.

they need to have the elite spec have it’s own exp it gets….so when you get exp, it goes to ur current mastery and ur elite spec when you have it equipped so you can level it up as you go through the new content

My suggestion. Keep the 400 point cost for the first play through, but reduce it by half for alts.

Jordo.5913:

they need to have the elite spec have it’s own exp it gets….so when you get exp, it goes to ur current mastery and ur elite spec when you have it equipped so you can level it up as you go through the new content

A “hero scroll” for each level of mastery would probably make it a bit more achievable.

Kind of like how it used to be when you levelled up a level 80 character in the past, you got a skill point scroll.

Even then I still think the number needs to be reduced a bit.

Endlos nails the problem. Until you get like 300 points in, you don’t have a full trait line. And then if you want your new weapon/mechanic, you’re down by a full trait line in a zone that’s designed to be harder than the rest of the world. Totally unsatisfying experience.

This screenshot is of my Charr warrior. I got 100% world map completion before WvW was no longer a requirement for that.

9 skills unlocked for elite specialization with 10 to go. This means out of all the work and months I put into actually playing the game I have to do just as much if no more to get the rest of the hero points needed for my elite spec. From what I’ve seen there is way less HoT content compared all all of the core game, yet you have to do just as much work.

I admit I haven’t even started the HoT stuff yet because I’m working on Halloween stuff first, but still it’s disappointing to see this. I was expecting to have most of my elite spec completed with needing to do some HoT stuff to finish it off, while all HoT and other stuff would be needed for masteries.

Edit: For a long time people have been requesting that world map completion was made account wide. This is a perfect example of that. All the months I spent working on it (and at times it was rather difficult and annoying), only to find I have to force myself to do it on each and every character to get what is needed for their elite specializations.

I actually like grinding my masteries and how it requires xp so it incentivises players to get out there and participate in events once they’ve completed them.

The only issue is that I would like to grind it out while playing as the elite specs. For a revenant wanting to go Herald, this takes doubly long as other professions.

Agree with the overwhelming majority. This is a ridiculous amount of grind, which is further compounded by the gated story(really anet? you were that insecure about how short the story content would be?), clusterkitten maps, and other pure grind elements. GW2 was supposed to stand out as a game that is accessible and “my pace”, and many if not most people play the game because it doesn’t feel like a part time job. You could go in, enjoy the story, and if you wanted to, you could optionally grind for cosmetic skins and other prestiges. But overall, most all content was available for you to enjoy. I’m sorry, but this isn’t fun. At all. I only got 50 of the hero points (5 locations) because the other areas apparently require certain masteries just to get them (further hours of event grinding) and I already want to quit the game. I’m not saying everything should be spoonfed to us, but this is blatant grind in order to make the game feel longer. If this is supposed to be a “journey”, it’s almost certainly one through hell. It just isn’t fun at all.

I literally have to grind in order to be able to grind. Think about that for a second.

At this point, I have to beat most of HoT just to enjoy the new HoT spec line. If that doesn’t scream “ridiculous”, it’s made worse 100 fold when you have to do it on multiple characters. I have 30 character slots, 27 of which are level 80 and fully geared. You could say it’s first world problems when I now have to pick and choose who I make an elite spec, but when you don’t even want to finish the first character, you know something is wrong. When you exit GW2 to play some single player game like Mad Max on the weekend of release, you know something is wrong.

And that’s not even the bigger issue here. For those that can’t sit around and grind for ages, they cannot access the elite spec line that in many classes gives an advantage over other players. This isn’t something you make difficult to get. Cosmetics are understandable. Optional titles and prestige are understandable. But this is a bit much. You are asking people to grind in order to grind in order to enjoy a new spec you SHOULD be playing WHILE you play HoT. What’s worse? You can’t even solo the hero points! That’s right folks, in addition to grinding these bad boys out, you are REQUIRED to do a number of them with a group of people. Some with even more people (champion spawns). Yup, a champion in a zone that’s supposed to be significantly harder than all other zones spawns in order for you to get 10 measly little points out of 400. There’s no excuse for that. The mastery grind made sense, though grinding the same events over and over is still a pain, but it still made sense. The masteries were optional perks that made the game more exciting and would unlock certain lore related content. That was the impression many of us were under. Gated personal story and gated spec, however, is another story altogether. There’s a simple fix here. It simply involves HP and story gates. That’s it. Most people would be happy if all we had to grind were the cosmetic/lore based content.

I wanted to enjoy this, I really, really did. But at this point it really just isn’t fun. If this is the direction GW2 is taking, then there’s little reason for me to stay. I’ve been with this game since beta of GW1, and HoT was sort of my “last chance” in-faith purchase for what I’d hoped would turn the sequel around. I had low expectations for HoT, because it’s been something of a norm with GW2 content and it’s much nicer to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed, but I really didn’t expect this. I think it’s time I finally grew up and moved on. The magic of GW1 is long gone, and if this is the direction GW2 is headed, I can’t see any reason not to adopt other, more polished games that also include grind elements, such as Black Desert which was in most ways a much more enjoyable experience (maxed out in the korean beta, it was a lot of fun). What a shame.

By removing what set this game apart from the common rabble, you’ve entered it into the playing field. A field in which alternatives exist.

It looks to me that over time, Anet has shifted their target audience. They have moved away from the casuals and more to the hard core type of player. Perhaps this is a sound business decision, and if so, I can’t blame them. Unfortunately, they are leaving me out in the cold.

I think it is time for me to take an extended break from this game. Maybe things will get better sometime in the future.

Gating core play mechanics like character trait lines behind massive massive MASSIVE grind (with enforced repetition again and again and again across EVERY character) makes me totally distrust the Anet devs. These devs appear to be building a korean grindfest mmo.

What happened to the devs who promised “Arenanet don’t make grindy games?”

redcomyn.4651:

It looks to me that over time, Anet has shifted their target audience. They have moved away from the casuals and more to the hard core type of player. Perhaps this is a sound business decision, and if so, I can’t blame them. Unfortunately, they are leaving me out in the cold.

I think it is time for me to take an extended break from this game. Maybe things will get better sometime in the future.

The move away from casuals is a mistake. ANET wants the hyperactive no-lifers, not working people who see gaming as a pleasurable diversion.

Until they fix the Elite spec grind, I’m not spending money in the TP, or buying any products from ANet. I know at least six others personally who are doing the same. I am not upgrading two other family accounts as neither player wants to in the game’s current state. All tolled, the people no longer paying for GW2 have put a lot of money into the game and TP.

I have no problem with things for casuals and things for hardcore players. They just need to be aware of where those kinds of players intersect and be sure not to make the experience intolerable for either. With the NPE, they went too far towards the casuals. With HoT they went too far towards the hardcore. Hopefully, they’ll realize this and make some adjustments.

Kalan.9705:

Gating core play mechanics like character trait lines behind massive massive MASSIVE grind (with enforced repetition again and again and again across EVERY character) makes me totally distrust the Anet devs. These devs appear to be building a korean grindfest mmo.

What happened to the devs who promised “Arenanet don’t make grindy games?”

ANET doesn’t care about those who were mislead about elite specs.

Guild Wars was a great game for people who have a life. WAS.

And furthermore, gating core play mechanics behind group content is just wrong.
Some of us have other responsibilities in life, and cannot play when the content is fresh and the zergs are rolling through.

In a few days, when the new zones have quieted down, it will be very hard to find groups to do the hero point challenges. And then what? Sorry, no elite spec for you…

All hero point challenges should be soloable. No exceptions.

400hp is not horrible… problem is if you have alts. After 6 hours playing I unlock 7 skills. (And I also focus masteries). So, if i image my 6 alts.. 6×400= 2400hp… phew.. Please nerf elite hp req for alts.