Guild Wars 2

The main thing I think was a waste in Elite Specializations is the Specialization weapon. I think I am only bothering with them on 2 of my characters: Rev and Guardian.

I really like the idea of elite specs. The problem now is that there is only one specialization. It will be better when there is more than one and we have more options. Right now everyone is more or less the same specialization. Very few people go the core route, outside of condi ranger, and some theif builds. but when we have 2 or 3 specializations it will be much better experience for all of us. I wish they would release new specialization regularly instead of waiting for an xpac to do so. It would keep the hype train going and keep people excited to try new things. Like say, one specialization with an xpac, and one added in the middle of an xpac would be perfect. If they added one more in HoT as a content update, we’d potentially have 5 specizliations for each class to choose from in another 2 year period.

Issue with ES being better than core class is mostly created by players themselves.

Because there’s meta. There’s one and only one way to play each class, and if you step away from it – you are doing it wrong. Or, that’s what people will tell you in raids and PVP. Does new elite spec offer 5% damage increase over core class? There, it’s mandatory, and you will be burned alive if you don’t use it. Does new ES dare to offer some new form of group support? Druids and Chronos say hi. Does it offer some niche things that offer interesting sidegrades but don’t fit into meta? Say hello to Scrapper – part of no build I’m aware of.

There’s no win here. It either will be mandatory, or will not be used at all. Because meta. And honestly, since unlocking them require effort and does spice up class gameplay, I’d rather go with “mandatory” route.

Wintermute.5408:

Issue with ES being better than core class is mostly created by players themselves.

Because there’s meta.

Of course. If there is something that is “the best”, what person would say “I don’t want the best, I want something that is less good than that”?

Certainly there are a few people with strong enough personalities to go against the Meta and have a character they want that does something different. But most people won’t do that.

Djinn.9245:

Wintermute.5408:

Issue with ES being better than core class is mostly created by players themselves.

Because there’s meta.

Of course. If there is something that is “the best”, what person would say “I don’t want the best, I want something that is less good than that”?

Certainly there are a few people with strong enough personalities to go against the Meta and have a character they want that does something different. But most people won’t do that.

That wasnt even it before HOT though.

At ESL level you saw power warriors who used stances and rampage and then you saw the shoutbow warrior who used shouts. Neither build was better then the other in the 5 vs 5 aspect.

Same with shout guardian and burn guardian.

You didnt have to fight the meta, other then the D/D meta in PvP. Classes had weaknesses and all skill levels.

The new Specs in PvP is still destroying PvP because a gerbil with 1 hand could play a trap DH and find its way to silver/gold. Yet a player really trying to learn thief, rev and now warrior will sit in bronze not understanding how to compete.

And its really not that simple, people say silly things like this is how you play against a DH. I laugh because Darek aka That ESL guardian is top 5 on the LB no matter what playing DH.

Elite specs were horrible in that sense, it created a unfun environment and going anti-meta against builds with no weakness has become impossible.

They should have converted the profession mechanic trait line into a core tyria elite spec when HoT dropped, giving everyone 2 elites to pick from (and preventing the profession mechanic traits from being used at the same time as the new elite specs, which limits build diversity but improves class balance).

mtpelion.4562:

They should have converted the profession mechanic trait line into a core tyria elite spec when HoT dropped, giving everyone 2 elites to pick from (and preventing the profession mechanic traits from being used at the same time as the new elite specs, which limits build diversity but improves class balance).

That would have worked if they didn’t make elite spec mechanics that were direct upgrades to core class mechanics.

Elementalist: Attunements
Tempest: Attunement Overloads

Warrior: Bursts
Berserker: Enrage and Primal Bursts

Guardian: Virtues
Dragonhunter: Improved Virtues

All three of those are direct upgrades to the core mechanics.

There would also still be the issue of weapons being locked behind the new elite specs.

What would have been fine is if elite specs changed the whole class… provided a new set of weapon skill on all weapons, replaced class mechanics and possibly replaced utility skills…. but of course then why not just add all new classes at that point.

Elite specs just never should have happpened.

Panda.1967:

mtpelion.4562:

They should have converted the profession mechanic trait line into a core tyria elite spec when HoT dropped, giving everyone 2 elites to pick from (and preventing the profession mechanic traits from being used at the same time as the new elite specs, which limits build diversity but improves class balance).

That would have worked if they didn’t make elite spec mechanics that were direct upgrades to core class mechanics.

Elementalist: Attunements
Tempest: Attunement Overloads

Warrior: Bursts
Berserker: Enrage and Primal Bursts

Guardian: Virtues
Dragonhunter: Improved Virtues

All three of those are direct upgrades to the core mechanics.

There would also still be the issue of weapons being locked behind the new elite specs.

What would have been fine is if elite specs changed the whole class… provided a new set of weapon skill on all weapons, replaced class mechanics and possibly replaced utility skills…. but of course then why not just add all new classes at that point.

Elite specs just never should have happpened.

Part of the reason they are a “direct improvement” is because you can also take traits that improve the base mechanic which translates into a double boost for the HoT Elite. If you prevent the HoT Elite traits from being used at the same time as the core mechanic traits, a degree of balance could have been achieved.

mtpelion.4562:

Panda.1967:

mtpelion.4562:

They should have converted the profession mechanic trait line into a core tyria elite spec when HoT dropped, giving everyone 2 elites to pick from (and preventing the profession mechanic traits from being used at the same time as the new elite specs, which limits build diversity but improves class balance).

That would have worked if they didn’t make elite spec mechanics that were direct upgrades to core class mechanics.

Elementalist: Attunements
Tempest: Attunement Overloads

Warrior: Bursts
Berserker: Enrage and Primal Bursts

Guardian: Virtues
Dragonhunter: Improved Virtues

All three of those are direct upgrades to the core mechanics.

There would also still be the issue of weapons being locked behind the new elite specs.

What would have been fine is if elite specs changed the whole class… provided a new set of weapon skill on all weapons, replaced class mechanics and possibly replaced utility skills…. but of course then why not just add all new classes at that point.

Elite specs just never should have happpened.

Part of the reason they are a “direct improvement” is because you can also take traits that improve the base mechanic which translates into a double boost for the HoT Elite. If you prevent the HoT Elite traits from being used at the same time as the core mechanic traits, a degree of balance could have been achieved.

Example?

zealex.9410:

mtpelion.4562:

Panda.1967:

mtpelion.4562:

They should have converted the profession mechanic trait line into a core tyria elite spec when HoT dropped, giving everyone 2 elites to pick from (and preventing the profession mechanic traits from being used at the same time as the new elite specs, which limits build diversity but improves class balance).

That would have worked if they didn’t make elite spec mechanics that were direct upgrades to core class mechanics.

Elementalist: Attunements
Tempest: Attunement Overloads

Warrior: Bursts
Berserker: Enrage and Primal Bursts

Guardian: Virtues
Dragonhunter: Improved Virtues

All three of those are direct upgrades to the core mechanics.

There would also still be the issue of weapons being locked behind the new elite specs.

What would have been fine is if elite specs changed the whole class… provided a new set of weapon skill on all weapons, replaced class mechanics and possibly replaced utility skills…. but of course then why not just add all new classes at that point.

Elite specs just never should have happpened.

Part of the reason they are a “direct improvement” is because you can also take traits that improve the base mechanic which translates into a double boost for the HoT Elite. If you prevent the HoT Elite traits from being used at the same time as the core mechanic traits, a degree of balance could have been achieved.

Example?

I think I understand a little on what he’s trying to suggest… but it honestly wouldn’t solve the underlying issue with the classes I pointed out… A Tempest would still be inherently better than an Elementalist due to actually having Overloands + Attunements despite lack of any Core traits that trigger from attunement switching…. same with the others…

But if I understand him correctly he’s suggesting pulling all of the traits that affect the Core Class Mechanics directly from all spec lines, replacing them with new spec specific traits, and creating a new Core Elite Spec for each class that houses those traits…

The problem though is that the traits alone are NOT the issue… the issue is that every elite spec offers a new mechanic that is used side-by-side with the core mechanic, or directly improves the core mechanic. His suggestion would reduce the amount of power gained by SOME elite specs by a tiny amount… reason being, most of the class mechanic traits for most classes don’t actually bring anything valuable to the table, losing access to them has very little impact.

Panda.1967:

zealex.9410:

mtpelion.4562:

Panda.1967:

mtpelion.4562:

They should have converted the profession mechanic trait line into a core tyria elite spec when HoT dropped, giving everyone 2 elites to pick from (and preventing the profession mechanic traits from being used at the same time as the new elite specs, which limits build diversity but improves class balance).

That would have worked if they didn’t make elite spec mechanics that were direct upgrades to core class mechanics.

Elementalist: Attunements
Tempest: Attunement Overloads

Warrior: Bursts
Berserker: Enrage and Primal Bursts

Guardian: Virtues
Dragonhunter: Improved Virtues

All three of those are direct upgrades to the core mechanics.

There would also still be the issue of weapons being locked behind the new elite specs.

What would have been fine is if elite specs changed the whole class… provided a new set of weapon skill on all weapons, replaced class mechanics and possibly replaced utility skills…. but of course then why not just add all new classes at that point.

Elite specs just never should have happpened.

Part of the reason they are a “direct improvement” is because you can also take traits that improve the base mechanic which translates into a double boost for the HoT Elite. If you prevent the HoT Elite traits from being used at the same time as the core mechanic traits, a degree of balance could have been achieved.

Example?

I think I understand a little on what he’s trying to suggest… but it honestly wouldn’t solve the underlying issue with the classes I pointed out… A Tempest would still be inherently better than an Elementalist due to actually having Overloands + Attunements despite lack of any Core traits that trigger from attunement switching…. same with the others…

But if I understand him correctly he’s suggesting pulling all of the traits that affect the Core Class Mechanics directly from all spec lines, replacing them with new spec specific traits, and creating a new Core Elite Spec for each class that houses those traits…

The problem though is that the traits alone are NOT the issue… the issue is that every elite spec offers a new mechanic that is used side-by-side with the core mechanic, or directly improves the core mechanic. His suggestion would reduce the amount of power gained by SOME elite specs by a tiny amount… reason being, most of the class mechanic traits for most classes don’t actually bring anything valuable to the table, losing access to them has very little impact.

The issue for me with elite specs is simple. This first tier just does to many things. A tempest can be support and a dps a berserker a power build or a condi a dd focushes on mobility as well as dmg.

I think as boring as this moght be that elite specs should strictly fovus on 1 think enchancing that. So when the next elite specs that does something else comes you need to change up your build to benefit.

Inb4 we have the reaper scourge meme where both compete for a slot as both play condi.

Panda.1967:

The very concept of Elite Speciaizations was a terrible idea from the very start. First off the very name denotes that they are better than other specializations. The method of aquiring them requires you to unlock all traits in every other specialization, which reinforces the “better tham other specs” stigma. The player base at large insists on everyone using Elite Specs… This is NOT ok.

Yes it is OK. You’re trying to defend a position of having more freedom of choice when creating a build. The problem is, freedom of choice doesn’t create fun to play builds. Using elite specs to define a playstyle allows the devs to design said playstyle and make sure it’s a fun one, rather than relying on a fun gameplay emerging somehow from a random mix of traits and mechanics. Which more often than not produces broken gameplay rather than fun one.

So no, the elite specs are a good idea. The only problem with them is we have a single one for each class, which makes it feel a bit shallow. But this issue is on its way to be remedied soon™ when the expansion launches.

Feanor.2358:

Panda.1967:

The very concept of Elite Speciaizations was a terrible idea from the very start. First off the very name denotes that they are better than other specializations. The method of aquiring them requires you to unlock all traits in every other specialization, which reinforces the “better tham other specs” stigma. The player base at large insists on everyone using Elite Specs… This is NOT ok.

Yes it is OK. You’re trying to defend a position of having more freedom of choice when creating a build. The problem is, freedom of choice doesn’t create fun to play builds. Using elite specs to define a playstyle allows the devs to design said playstyle and make sure it’s a fun one, rather than relying on a fun gameplay emerging somehow from a random mix of traits and mechanics. Which more often than not produces broken gameplay rather than fun one.

So no, the elite specs are a good idea. The only problem with them is we have a single one for each class, which makes it feel a bit shallow. But this issue is on its way to be remedied soon™ when the expansion launches.

WHAT?

Anet did not create a fun style of game play with there new spec. Also they did not balance it correctly so there were builds in WvW and PvP destroying actual game play.

Prior to HOT in PvP alone you had a choice, there were builds used in AG (semi competitive) where all 5 trait lines could be used.

Prior to HOT you saw a shoutbow warrior who used shouts with longbow and sword/shield. Then there was a DPS warrior which used stances and with hammer or mace shield with greatsword.

Not only did these 2 builds use at least 1 different spec line, they used different utility skills, a different elite skill and different weapons. They were also played different with 1 being a support and the other being a glass cannon.

When HOT allowed warrior to have a actual build. Everyone used mace shield and either longbow or Greatsword and the other thing that made these 2 builds different was the amulet. That is it.

I use this as a example in PvP, there are many more if you wanted it broken down. I will not go into WvW as well as raids and the lack of team comp diversity there as well.

I just want you to know you are way off, build diversity is alot more fun when multiple builds are viable with different play styles. Elite specs destroyed that.

You’re not talking about fun but rather optimality. Optimal builds will always be a select few, because of the nature of “optimal”. So that’s a moot point. If you want build diversity, you can have it. You only lose being optimal but you can play what’s fun for you.

Feanor.2358:

You’re not talking about fun but rather optimality. Optimal builds will always be a select few, because of the nature of “optimal”. So that’s a moot point. If you want build diversity, you can have it. You only lose being optimal but you can play what’s fun for you.

You do realize the huge difference though right?

I use to use a kill shot build with hammer and play against some of the better players in the game.

There were multiple builds to choose from with multiple play styles and lesser builds were only a little bit behind. Hot with its elite spec made it so in S1 of PvP only 3 classes were being used at the end of it. I can tell you that no build diversity is no fun especially when the fun of PvP is coming up with unique builds.

Also i dont understand that logic, you are talking fun. Yet some how you want to defend elite specs by saying its fun for everyone to play the same build? Anet came out a long time with the concept of play it your way.

If you want to play warrior with a sword or mace or axe you can play it. They would feel different and play different and effect a enemy different. That is where the fun is, when you take away that choice. The concept and the game are not fun.

Explain the idea of fun when it comes to only 1 build available per class in raids, WvW and PvP in HOT and having multiple builds with different play styles prior to HOT.

Nonsense. Optimal builds and those “a little behind” are always a very small subset of the possible builds. It was like that pre-HoT, it’s like that now. Nothing really changed.

Feanor.2358:

Nonsense. Optimal builds and those “a little behind” are always a very small subset of the possible builds. It was like that pre-HoT, it’s like that now. Nothing really changed.

What are you talking about?

Have you even entered PvP or WvW?

S1 of PvP everyone used a rev, mesmer, ele or ranger. If you werent you were not playing at a high level. Warrior was near useless the first 2 seasons of PvP.

Seriously you were speaking for the positive for the elite specs yet you are truly saying nothing.

If you are talking PvE yeah sure you can run what ever you want, heck even dungeons and fractals.

But when it comes to raids, WvW and PvP elite specs destroyed fun, build diversity, team comp diversity, zerg diversity, and the ability to play your own style.

Please explain how warrior used 5 out 5 spec lines before HOT and how they have only used 3 out of 6 in competitive play for WvW, raids and PvP since the release of HOT. Or simply reframe your argument for elite specs.

No one likes being forced to be a clone of someone else.

kdaddy.5431:

No one likes being forced to be a clone of someone else.

Exactly why I spent most of my time on GW1 making creative new builds that I enjoyed… most of which out performed what was considered “meta” at the time even… sadly GW2 doesn’t give anywhere near the same level of freedom to our builds… unlike GW1 there arn’t really any “untested potentials”… which results in us being shoehorned into specific builds to participate in any group content or else we have to spend 20x as long trying to find a group that will accept non-meta builds… and with how the meta is lately all they have to do is look at your class icon, see that you’re not using your elite spec and “nope”.

Meta exists in every game and there’s no point complaining about it being rigid. It will always be. Allow me to remind you can always set up your own group.

And yes, I have entered WvW. I actually still do, on a regular basis. And you know what I see? Plenty of non-DH guards. Core eles and mesmers aren’t a rare sight either. So there goes your thesis of elite specs “shoehorning” everyone into a single build.

Let’s be honest here- of course the Elite specs are better than their vanilla counterparts because it’s a way to get people to buy HoT. Would anyone buy an expac if your main class was not made better? It’s simple marketing and getting the most sales you can. You think the new expac specs will be worse than the HoT specs? I highly doubt it! Otherwise no one would be interested in trying out the new specs!

scorekeeper.6524:

Let’s be honest here- of course the Elite specs are better than their vanilla counterparts because it’s a way to get people to buy HoT. Would anyone buy an expac if your main class was not made better? It’s simple marketing and getting the most sales you can. You think the new expac specs will be worse than the HoT specs? I highly doubt it! Otherwise no one would be interested in trying out the new specs!

Except that the devs explicitly stated in an interview that Elite Specs will NOT be an upgrade from normal specs, they would simply offer a new option to the class. And with the design that GW2 was sold on, having elite specs as an upgrade is NOT a selling point. The freedom to “Play it your way” was the selling point… people were excited when they announced that Elite Specs would not be an upgrade. The fact that they were not supposed to be an upgrade was actually a selling point.

scorekeeper.6524:

Let’s be honest here- of course the Elite specs are better than their vanilla counterparts because it’s a way to get people to buy HoT. Would anyone buy an expac if your main class was not made better? It’s simple marketing and getting the most sales you can. You think the new expac specs will be worse than the HoT specs? I highly doubt it! Otherwise no one would be interested in trying out the new specs!

When i played rifle i used arms, when i used hammer/ mace shield and Greatsword i would of used power. When i used a longbow i would of used tactics.

People buy expansions all the time for the ability to play something new and fun.

I was buying the expansion with the idea that the new spec gave me a different style of play. Warrior got torch and i was hoping to have some kind of condi warrior build where i could use the power trait line for bleeds and confusion with mace-shield and use the sword torch.

I was buying the expansion hoping for more story lines and the new maps of PvE but they ended up being 3 meta zerg maps.

I bought the expansion thinking it would give me some new things to play with, with some new harder content but sticking to the GW2 core style of play.

I and many guild members have taken extended periods of time away from the game because simply this wasnt what GW2 core was about and now its just a generic grindy MMO.

GW2 was different then Star Trek online, Swot , BDO, FF etc etc. It had its own feel when it came to questing and combat. Anet increased the speed of the game 10X and simply threw out eveything so it could look like these other MMO.

OP, I agree. At the end of the day, elite specializations made gw2 worse not better. Elite specs broke the game, pure and simple. These specs grant boons, conditions, power and defenses all in one build. There’s no tradeoffs. Worse, I think elite specs created a “skill gap” between players between those who bought HoT and those who didn’t. They should’ve never existed.

The next expansion is around the corner. Sadly, the best I and others can hope for is that the next set of elite specs are not overpowered to oblivion. That they’re on par with HoT. Core specs will be stuck in the bottom, as usual. If this is going to be the new order of business with every upcoming expansion, then there’s no point in playing PvP. The new FOTM will be the order of the day and we all have to wait until it’s nerfed. Then next expansion comes. Rinse and repeat.

What I remember is that elite specs were supposed to be an addition, not an upgrade. I remember pre-HoT beta weeks. EVERYBODY in these forums were complaining that elite specs weren’t strong enough. ANet, I believe, was taking suggestions and feedback. Unfortunately, they made a HUGE mistake by buffing them in their design. And so….here we are….

JTGuevara.9018:

OP, I agree. At the end of the day, elite specializations made gw2 worse not better. Elite specs broke the game, pure and simple. These specs grant boons, conditions, power and defenses all in one build. There’s no tradeoffs. Worse, I think elite specs created a “skill gap” between players between those who bought HoT and those who didn’t. They should’ve never existed.

The next expansion is around the corner. Sadly, the best I and others can hope for is that the next set of elite specs are not overpowered to oblivion. That they’re on par with HoT. Core specs will be stuck in the bottom, as usual. If this is going to be the new order of business with every upcoming expansion, then there’s no point in playing PvP. The new FOTM will be the order of the day and we all have to wait until it’s nerfed. Then next expansion comes. Rinse and repeat.

What I remember is that elite specs were supposed to be an addition, not an upgrade. I remember pre-HoT beta weeks. EVERYBODY in these forums were complaining that elite specs weren’t strong enough. ANet, I believe, was taking suggestions and feedback. Unfortunately, they made a HUGE mistake by buffing them in their design. And so….here we are….

You know whats funny about the beta testing in PvP.

I was running my full trap ranger vanilla. I could catch people if played vanilla builds sometimes, not alot but i even caught ESL players if they didnt know.

I was fighting a rev and he ran into my traps and he was using mallyx and he had perma resistance. I said that was broken.

In the same match i was facing a scrapper and he had full boons, 25 might, 10 stacks of stability etc etc etc.

I posted a thread and said it was way to much and a majority (not all) said i was using a crap build and i should lose. Which i was taken back by because GW2 was suppose to be about skill.

Anet catered to casuals who want to feel OP without having to give up anything.

Panda.1967:

Except that the devs explicitly stated in an interview that Elite Specs will NOT be an upgrade from normal specs, they would simply offer a new option to the class. And with the design that GW2 was sold on, having elite specs as an upgrade is NOT a selling point. The freedom to “Play it your way” was the selling point… people were excited when they announced that Elite Specs would not be an upgrade. The fact that they were not supposed to be an upgrade was actually a selling point.

Which is a problem with the implementation, not the idea itself.

I think the idea itself was a good one, for the problems it was looking to solve. The problems that have been discussed here are mostly relating to them being too powerful. There ARE viable core builds in various environments, but not as many as there should be, statistically speaking, and when having an elite spec is an obvious choice and you only have one, that does impact build diversity.

(Although don’t go looking back at the pre-HoT days with rose-tinted glasses. There always was a relatively small set of truly competitive builds.)

The period after HoT launched and people realised that the elite specs were almost always better than a third core spec, however, are probably going to prove to be where the problem was worst. ArenaNet have been toning down the elite specs over time, and it’s plausible they’ll eventually get to the point where choosing between an elite spec or a third core spec remains an interesting choice for any build that doesn’t rely on the elite spec to function. Meanwhile, unless the second set of specs prove so OP that the current set get dropped entirely, build variation should open up again after the second expansion.

Elites should be Split from core in pvp. You play à core build in pvp, you’ll most likely get trashed by your team
or ,in some rare cases, death treathened.

Edit 04/07/5:13 am : Or remove elite specs from pvp and wvw and Only keep it to pve. Radical change to radical problems.

Alek Seven.2374:

Elites should be Split from core in pvp. You play à core build in pvp, you’ll most likely get trashed by your team
or ,in some rare cases, death treathened.

Now THIS I can get behind one hundred percent!

JTGuevara.9018:

Alek Seven.2374:

Elites should be Split from core in pvp. You play à core build in pvp, you’ll most likely get trashed by your team
or ,in some rare cases, death treathened.

Now THIS I can get behind one hundred percent!

humm need to start going with core guardian spirit weapon build to rank pvp… :|

and start being anoying to the team asking every time if i was helpfull

Panda.1967:

Except that the devs explicitly stated in an interview that Elite Specs will NOT be an upgrade from normal specs, they would simply offer a new option to the class. And with the design that GW2 was sold on, having elite specs as an upgrade is NOT a selling point. The freedom to “Play it your way” was the selling point… people were excited when they announced that Elite Specs would not be an upgrade. The fact that they were not supposed to be an upgrade was actually a selling point.

Lol, claims that elite specs were not upgrades, fails to see almost every class using said elite specs in almost every game mode meta.

“Just” turn the old class lines (soul reaping, beastmastery, discipline, arcane, tools, invocation, trickery, virtues and illusions) into elite specs in their own right so that we have either core classes or elite-classes.

Yes, that would fix a lot. I’ve seen in this thread, after having said so often myself, that the elite-specs are somewhat a double boost. That’s true, look at the chronomancer in PvP, the condi version uses both, almost every dare devil uses trickery, lot’s of druids take beastmastery.

The problem is that we are technically in a state of dual-classing with this.
If the core-class-lines were a stand-alone option for the elite-slot though this wouldn’t happen, and yes, that would need a lot of rebalance.

Here’s the thing, who’s to say that the next elite specs won’t have the same problem?

My 2 problems:

- Core GW2 classes should have an elite spec (same power, dif. orientation) that the expansions

- Weapons shouldn’t be related to elite specs to equip -traits are fine- (It limits build diversity, specially when 2 or more expas can potentially bring more variants with main hand+offhand)

Naurgalen.2374:

My 2 problems:

- Core GW2 classes should have an elite spec (same power, dif. orientation) that the expansions

- Weapons shouldn’t be related to elite specs to equip -traits are fine- (It limits build diversity, specially when 2 or more expas can potentially bring more variants with main hand+offhand)

If we want core and elite to be different classes though we should have weapons, and their respective utility skills, be limited to each other in some way.
Honestly i’m fine with DH having the longbow but core guard not having that option, just like Tempest can have the warhorn but Ele not have it.

If anything i think the old class lines, should they ever get the elite-treatment, should limit a line of skills and a weapon too.
That way you’d actually have to make a choice. Technically more build diversity is great but only to a point, limitations promote growth in a different way.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Naurgalen.2374:

My 2 problems:

- Core GW2 classes should have an elite spec (same power, dif. orientation) that the expansions

- Weapons shouldn’t be related to elite specs to equip -traits are fine- (It limits build diversity, specially when 2 or more expas can potentially bring more variants with main hand+offhand)

If we want core and elite to be different classes though we should have weapons, and their respective utility skills, be limited to each other in some way.
Honestly i’m fine with DH having the longbow but core guard not having that option, just like Tempest can have the warhorn but Ele not have it.

If anything i think the old class lines, should they ever get the elite-treatment, should limit a line of skills and a weapon too.
That way you’d actually have to make a choice. Technically more build diversity is great but only to a point, limitations promote growth in a different way.

Weapons requiring the elite spec slotted is A MAJOR PART OF THE PROBLEM.

In nearly every class, the Elite spec’s weapon is by far their most effective weapon, or fills a void that should have been filled from day one.

Elementalist – Warhorn fills the offensive ranged offhand role for an elementalist as opposed to the more control/defense oriented Focus and the close ranged Dagger. It also provides a ranged Support offhand for Water Attunement, as opposed to the oddly offensive nature of the Focus in Water Attunement.

Guardian – Longbow provides an actual ranged offense option. Their Staff is a Support weapon, and Scepter is a Control weapon, and both of them have very short ranges still too.

Engineer – The only ACTUAL Power weapon… Rifle is more of a Hybrid weapon and Control focused at that… Pistol is obviously Condition…

Mesmer – Shield is their only defensive weapon

Warrior – Torch is their strongest condition offhand…

Necro – Greatsword is their strongest Power weapon…

Ranger – Staff is their only support weapon besides Warhorn

I just don’t see the problem.
More often then not in PvP i see more Scepter/Shield DH’s with a melee setup in the other set than one with a longbow.
Warhorn on the Tempest is rarely seen too.
Greatsword on the necro, sure, it’s a nice power-melee weapon but you can manage without and if you want it: Go reaper.

My point still stands that chosing a setup, sticking with it, isn’t bad.
Going by what you said people would still choose these weapons if they were available to the core classes and if that comes up: Why not go elite then by default?

Opening these weapons up to the core classes doesn’t change anything. Balancing core-classes alongside elite-specs (through elite-class lines) would be the more sensible approach in the long run.

Soooo…. how long until the topic title is changed to “elite specs were the best thing since sliced bread”

Amaimon.7823:

Soooo…. how long until the topic title is changed to “elite specs were the best thing since sliced bread”

Who claimed that was the case?

Amaimon.7823:

Soooo…. how long until the topic title is changed to “elite specs were the best thing since sliced bread”

never

LouWolfskin.3492:

I just don’t see the problem.
More often then not in PvP i see more Scepter/Shield DH’s with a melee setup in the other set than one with a longbow.
Warhorn on the Tempest is rarely seen too.
Greatsword on the necro, sure, it’s a nice power-melee weapon but you can manage without and if you want it: Go reaper.

My point still stands that chosing a setup, sticking with it, isn’t bad.
Going by what you said people would still choose these weapons if they were available to the core classes and if that comes up: Why not go elite then by default?

Opening these weapons up to the core classes doesn’t change anything. Balancing core-classes alongside elite-specs (through elite-class lines) would be the more sensible approach in the long run.

If they were available to Core, it would open up more build possibilities. Some of us want the new weapons but DO NOT want the elite spec. And with new elite specs coming it’s even more likely that people will want weapons from one Elite Spec to use with the other. To be perfectly clear, every class should have had every weapon at launch.

It’s a little concept known as build diversity.

Panda.1967:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I just don’t see the problem.
More often then not in PvP i see more Scepter/Shield DH’s with a melee setup in the other set than one with a longbow.
Warhorn on the Tempest is rarely seen too.
Greatsword on the necro, sure, it’s a nice power-melee weapon but you can manage without and if you want it: Go reaper.

My point still stands that chosing a setup, sticking with it, isn’t bad.
Going by what you said people would still choose these weapons if they were available to the core classes and if that comes up: Why not go elite then by default?

Opening these weapons up to the core classes doesn’t change anything. Balancing core-classes alongside elite-specs (through elite-class lines) would be the more sensible approach in the long run.

If they were available to Core, it would open up more build possibilities. Some of us want the new weapons but DO NOT want the elite spec. And with new elite specs coming it’s even more likely that people will want weapons from one Elite Spec to use with the other. To be perfectly clear, every class should have had every weapon at launch.

It’s a little concept known as build diversity.

No, it’s a version of total freedom that in the long run would hurt build diversity more than it would help.

Choice and having weight to that choice is not a bad thing and you should stop acting as if it were.
Or do you go into an italian restaurant and complain that they don’t have indian cooking on the menu?
Do you play chess and say: Well… you know, every of the pieces should have the move set of the queen from the start, the inventors of chess just didn’t think about it clearly enough.

Limitations are what gives your choices weight.
You want the new weapons, play the elite specs. You don’t want that? Than life with that choice.

PS: Do you even realize what you are saying in terms of balance? We have, at least, 21 weapons (not counting the off-hand doubles like sword and stuff), we have 9 classes that means, at launch, you’d want to have 189 skills, not counting that a full weapon set on ele has 20 skills.
And seeing how bunked balance is already how do you even think that would work in terms of work force.

LouWolfskin.3492:

Panda.1967:

LouWolfskin.3492:

I just don’t see the problem.
More often then not in PvP i see more Scepter/Shield DH’s with a melee setup in the other set than one with a longbow.
Warhorn on the Tempest is rarely seen too.
Greatsword on the necro, sure, it’s a nice power-melee weapon but you can manage without and if you want it: Go reaper.

My point still stands that chosing a setup, sticking with it, isn’t bad.
Going by what you said people would still choose these weapons if they were available to the core classes and if that comes up: Why not go elite then by default?

Opening these weapons up to the core classes doesn’t change anything. Balancing core-classes alongside elite-specs (through elite-class lines) would be the more sensible approach in the long run.

If they were available to Core, it would open up more build possibilities. Some of us want the new weapons but DO NOT want the elite spec. And with new elite specs coming it’s even more likely that people will want weapons from one Elite Spec to use with the other. To be perfectly clear, every class should have had every weapon at launch.

It’s a little concept known as build diversity.

No, it’s a version of total freedom that in the long run would hurt build diversity more than it would help.

Choice and having weight to that choice is not a bad thing and you should stop acting as if it were.
Or do you go into an italian restaurant and complain that they don’t have indian cooking on the menu?
Do you play chess and say: Well… you know, every of the pieces should have the move set of the queen from the start, the inventors of chess just didn’t think about it clearly enough.

Limitations are what gives your choices weight.
You want the new weapons, play the elite specs. You don’t want that? Than life with that choice.

PS: Do you even realize what you are saying in terms of balance? We have, at least, 21 weapons (not counting the off-hand doubles like sword and stuff), we have 9 classes that means, at launch, you’d want to have 189 skills, not counting that a full weapon set on ele has 20 skills.
And seeing how bunked balance is already how do you even think that would work in terms of work force.

It’s nothing like any of that. It’s more like going to an Itallian Restraunt and asking for Parmasan on your Pasta and being told “You can only get Parmasan if you order this one specific pasta”. The weapons are the tools of the class but do not define the class, the specs enhance the class but do not define the class, the class is still the same class regardless of your spec. Elite Specs do not suddenly change your class into a whole new class, they were meant to expand the class and open new paths for them, but instead they are just a giant powercreep. There’s no major problem with making the weapons have to be unlocked, but once they are unlocked they should be unlocked period. Don’t lock the weapons behind slotting the Elite Spec.

As for the weapons all be available to every class at launch, yes I do believe that is how it should have been. I expressed as much way back in Beta even, and there were tons of people who shared my opinion on that. Would it be more work? Yes and no… there are actually a lot of temporary weapons in the game that have abilities that would be fitting for various class weapons, simply re skinning those weapon abilities and tuning them to be on par with what the class should be doing for damage would be a quick easy way to cut back on the workload. In regards to balancing them, If they define different roles/play styles for each weapon they can easily create a benchmark for the weapon. Balance is actually a lot easier than most make it out to be.

You say 189 skills… lets check that…
What we got at launch was:
Warrior: MH=3 OH=5 2H=4 Total=39 skills
Guardian: MH=3 OH=3 2H=3 Total=30 skills
Engineer: MH=1 OH=2 2H=1 Total=12 skills
Ranger: MH=2 OH=4 2H=3 Total=29 skills
Thief: MH=3 OH=2 2H=1 Total=24 skills
Mesmer: MH=2 OH=4 2H=2 Total=24 skills
Necromancer: MH=3 OH=3 2H=1 Total=20 Skills
Elementalist: MH=2 OH=2 2H=1 Total=60 Skills
Total=238 weapons skills at launch.

Well we already got more than your 189 skills at launch…

Ideally though what we’d have had is:
Elementalist: MH=6 OH=8 2H=5 Total=236 (skills could have been virtually identical across all 4 attunements with different boons and conditions)
Thief: MH=6 OH=8 2H=5 Total=107
Others: MH=6 OH=8 2H=5 Total=59(354)
Total = 697 weapon skills at launch

Sure it’s over 2x the skills… but it would have lead to better build diversity, it also would have been more in line with how people played on GW1. Unconventional weapons for various professions was pretty common place.

Build diversity thrives on freedom of choice, it is stifled by required choices. Requiring us to slot an elite skill to use X weapon is counter to build diversity as it limits your options. Sure it may be more beneficial for the weapon to be paired with it’s spec, but that might not be ideal for the build itself.

Panda.1967:

Elementalist: Attunements
Tempest: Attunement Overloads

Warrior: Bursts
Berserker: Enrage and Primal Bursts

Guardian: Virtues
Dragonhunter: Improved Virtues

All three of those are direct upgrades to the core mechanics.

Of course, they could have been implemented as alternate takes on core mechanics that had pros and cons. DH virtues could lose the passive effects in favor of more powerful active effects on lower cooldowns. Tempest attunements could be on a shared cooldown. Berserk could replace the old burst altogether, constantly lose adrenaline at an increasing rate but last indefinitely until it runs out (or is used for a primal burst), and self-inflict unremovable debuffs once it does run out to represent burnout. Daredevils could trade PP for the extra dodge. Chronos and Reapers would just get alternate profession skills of similar power. Druids would be limited to one pet, and would need to use their heals to keep it upright. Engineers and Revs can’t really easily change their core mechanics, but they would get alternate skills and traits to create new builds and fill new roles.

But, they chose not to do that so that the expansion would provide a clear power boost. Like so many other things about GW2, it wasn’t the concept that was unsound as much as the implementation.

Panda.1967:

You say 189 skills… lets check that…
What we got at launch was:
Warrior: MH=3 OH=5 2H=4 Total=39 skills
Guardian: MH=3 OH=3 2H=3 Total=30 skills
Engineer: MH=1 OH=2 2H=1 Total=12 skills
Ranger: MH=2 OH=4 2H=3 Total=29 skills
Thief: MH=3 OH=2 2H=1 Total=24 skills
Mesmer: MH=2 OH=4 2H=2 Total=24 skills
Necromancer: MH=3 OH=3 2H=1 Total=20 Skills
Elementalist: MH=2 OH=2 2H=1 Total=60 Skills
Total=238 weapons skills at launch.

Well we already got more than your 189 skills at launch…

Ideally though what we’d have had is:
Elementalist: MH=6 OH=8 2H=5 Total=236 (skills could have been virtually identical across all 4 attunements with different boons and conditions)
Thief: MH=6 OH=8 2H=5 Total=107
Others: MH=6 OH=8 2H=5 Total=59(354)
Total = 697 weapon skills at launch

Sure it’s over 2x the skills… but it would have lead to better build diversity, it also would have been more in line with how people played on GW1. Unconventional weapons for various professions was pretty common place.

Build diversity thrives on freedom of choice, it is stifled by required choices. Requiring us to slot an elite skill to use X weapon is counter to build diversity as it limits your options. Sure it may be more beneficial for the weapon to be paired with it’s spec, but that might not be ideal for the build itself.

The 189 was a really, really quick estimate. As you could see, i didn’t even count offhands and i didn’t make the effort to count ele skills.

As you say Guild Wars 1…. -sighs- i wish people would stop a) comparing GW2 and GW1, they are not the same game and never will be; and b) remember that GW1 was a balance hell due to dual classing (which by the way, we have now too in this game).

But … i give up.
Limitations are bad, choice shouldn’t have any meaning behind it.

Djinn.9245:

Wintermute.5408:

Issue with ES being better than core class is mostly created by players themselves.

Because there’s meta.

Of course. If there is something that is “the best”, what person would say “I don’t want the best, I want something that is less good than that”?

Certainly there are a few people with strong enough personalities to go against the Meta and have a character they want that does something different. But most people won’t do that.

This would be far less of a problem if there was stronger distinction in rotation difficulty to performance output. The way Metabattle presents its builds makes 2 hugely kittenumptions….. that only perfect rotations matter, and that everyone is capable of it. There isn’t enough leeway in GW2 buildcraft in general that makes understanding these concepts intuitive to the player; and the overall encounter design almost never rewards players for finding those combinations on their own. Using the Engineer as the 2 most extreme examples…. the Fractal Condi build has the potentially highest DPS in the entire game, with whats easily the most complicated rotation to match. But a Power bomber build has competitive DPS, but only requires the player to spam 1. In fact…. it even goes as far as punishing the player’s DPS for doing anything that isn’t spamming 1.

So in the above situation, what would be the Meta? More importantly…. why are we not aware of any gradients between these 2 builds when it comes to difficulty vs output?

LouWolfskin.3492:

As you say Guild Wars 1…. -sighs- i wish people would stop a) comparing GW2 and GW1, they are not the same game and never will be; and b) remember that GW1 was a balance hell due to dual classing (which by the way, we have now too in this game).

Yes, and Elite Specs (dual classing in GW2) are more of a balance issue than GW dual classing ever was. I can’t even call it a balance problem, because most of the Elite Specs seem to just be out and out better by design.

LouWolfskin.3492:

The 189 was a really, really quick estimate. As you could see, i didn’t even count offhands and i didn’t make the effort to count ele skills.

As you say Guild Wars 1…. -sighs- i wish people would stop a) comparing GW2 and GW1, they are not the same game and never will be; and b) remember that GW1 was a balance hell due to dual classing (which by the way, we have now too in this game).

But … i give up.
Limitations are bad, choice shouldn’t have any meaning behind it.

limitations are bad yes… and choices that have meaning did exist before and were supposed to have been reinforced with Elite Specs… Elite Specs were supposed to give us something new in exchange for something else… they weren’t supposed to be a power creep. A meaningful choice with Elite Specs would have been “Gain this new mechanic, at the cost of losing this old mechanic” instead we got “Gain this new mechanic at the cost of nothing”… and the power creep turned that into “Take this new mechanic or be massively underpowered”

Panda.1967:

LouWolfskin.3492:

The 189 was a really, really quick estimate. As you could see, i didn’t even count offhands and i didn’t make the effort to count ele skills.

As you say Guild Wars 1…. -sighs- i wish people would stop a) comparing GW2 and GW1, they are not the same game and never will be; and b) remember that GW1 was a balance hell due to dual classing (which by the way, we have now too in this game).

But … i give up.
Limitations are bad, choice shouldn’t have any meaning behind it.

limitations are bad yes… and choices that have meaning did exist before and were supposed to have been reinforced with Elite Specs… Elite Specs were supposed to give us something new in exchange for something else… they weren’t supposed to be a power creep. A meaningful choice with Elite Specs would have been “Gain this new mechanic, at the cost of losing this old mechanic” instead we got “Gain this new mechanic at the cost of nothing”… and the power creep turned that into “Take this new mechanic or be massively underpowered”

What what is worse is that ANet likes how elites specs ended, even if borked up the game…
So im not expecting anything decent from the next expantion, the new specs will needto create the mandatory class progression system made by ANet the “must have feeling for new and easy gimmick”, wich will end with stupid gimmicks wars instead of a decent gamplay…

The thing is ANet even failled to manage theelite specializations wich make totally sense, since they never care or were good at managing the core.

Yeah, I don’t think they were well executed and did more harm than good overall. It sucks being basically forced to play one specific build out of many different possible builds because only one is competitive. They would have been better off implementing a multiclass system to expand build options, not restrict them. This is a fallacy many MMOs commit – that they need to restrict and railroad players for the sake of balance. It’s analogous to micromanaging people – it doesn’t actually help improve the gameplay and just frustrates players. IMO, it’s a lot of the reason GW2 failed to take off as well as it could have. If we basically had a system like GW1 with GW2’s engine, it would be phenomenal.

Of course, Anet (seems to have) gotten a lot of their ideas from Nike, who, IMO, isn’t as much of a game design luminary as he seems to think he is.

Is it totally unviable to not use the elite spec?

Xarnaroth.4589:

Is it totally unviable to not use the elite spec?

Deppends what damage output or support gimmick your class can pull, mostly HoT specs are all about that, ANet call it class progression….

If your not playing the new gimmick expect to do less, even if u are a better player, players with HoT gimmicks will have the upper hand, u will need twice the effort for the same result or very close to it.

Still deppends the class…

Xarnaroth.4589:

Is it totally unviable to not use the elite spec?

Depends on the class and application. Condi ranger doesn’t use elite and is among the best damage dealers in PvE. Core guardian is basically meta in WvW. But warrior for instance isn’t really played without its elite to my knowledge.