Guild Wars 2

Is it certain only the elite spec can “hold” the weapon newly introduced to the class?
This would mean when you drop the Spec, the weapon would have to automatically be unequipped (and what if your inventory is full?), or put up a message you can’t unequip the spekittenil you change your weapon, which just seems dunce to me.
I can understand dropping hero point into training in order to unlock the new weapon, but the rest doesn’t make sense.
Same with the new utilities. A little easier to achieve elite spec exclusivity, because the skill bar is so easy to manipulate, but still clunky.
Now the elite spec should certainly improve the new weapon and utilities to warrant picking it when building like that, but exclusivity it should not.
Even if current design was exclusivity, I’m sure we will see a roll into core later down the line.

So basically: People with the expansion should be mechanically stronger by having access to Elite Specializations?

That is not really what Guild Wars 2 is about.

If anything they just need to buff several of the racial skills to a more useable level. For example, Warband Support is a poor man’s Thieves Guild, with the NPCs doing little damage and barely take a hit before disappearing, making it a horrible Elite skill. Buff the damage and the life on those NPCs a bit so they’re decent in both categories instead of kitten poor.

However I admit several other racial skills don’t need to be touched at all because they’re at a perfect level, such as Prayer to Dwayna, Battle Roar, and Grasping Vines.

RyuDragnier.9476:

If anything they just need to buff several of the racial skills to a more useable level. For example, Warband Support is a poor man’s Thieves Guild, with the NPCs doing little damage and barely take a hit before disappearing, making it a horrible Elite skill. Buff the damage and the life on those NPCs a bit so they’re decent in both categories instead of kitten poor.

However I admit several other racial skills don’t need to be touched at all because they’re at a perfect level, such as Prayer to Dwayna, Battle Roar, and Grasping Vines.

But that is exactly what the Racial skills are supposed to be. Weak versions of profession skills.
Making them strong would more or less “force” people to choose a specific race for a specific profession in order to be “viable”.

lordkrall.7241:

So basically: People with the expansion should be mechanically stronger by having access to Elite Specializations?

That is not really what Guild Wars 2 is about.

Ppl with HoT have more options for building their characters indeed. Though they are not mechanically stronger.

It’s a matter of horizontal progression not vertical.

VodCom.6924:

Ppl with HoT have more options for building their characters indeed. Though they are not mechanically stronger.

It’s a matter of horizontal progression not vertical.

Indeed, but the OP seems to want that the Elite Specs should be stronger than the Core ones, and thus it would make people mechanically stronger.

I’m not sure where you got that from my op. In short, aftering unlocking the new weapon, it makes no sense that it can only be equipped with the elite spec slotted. Mechanically, what would the game do about un equipping skills and weapons when I change the elite out? What if I switch out on accident and now I have to reset everything?
Are you saying it’s not fair I can use new paid content unless it locks in 1/3 of my spec selection? This must be on the belief the new content puts out more damage. See guardian and ele elite specs to disprove that.

From here:

Now the elite spec should certainly improve the new weapon and utilities to warrant picking it when building like that, but exclusivity it should not.

I read that as you want them to be stronger, but reading it again now I see how I might have misunderstood it.

The reason for the exclusivity however is that you have to make a choice. Why else would anyone not use the Elite Spec?

lol lordkrall, he wants to know if the new weapon being introduced to each class is going to be exclusive to HoT buyers, and won’t be part of the professions core weapons, and if that’s the case he wants the weapon to be core and the elite spec to enhance the weapon/utilities

To which the answer is yes, you can only equip a new weapon if you use the elite specialization, an elementalist will not be able to use warhorn, only tempests

Also, the elite spec DOES enhance your utilities and weapon you get, on top of getting an exclusive weapon.

However, a tempest and an elementalist will be on even playing field still. You get locked out of one of your usual trait lines and are forced to take certain traitline that you may not actually want, to be able to use warhorn, utilities, and overload. You to choose whether you want to lose Fire, Lightning or Arcane trait lines, all of which have some very good grandmasters in them.

There’s already a mechanism in place that alerts you when you try to add items to your inventory when your bags are full (it opens up a tiny inventory window that shows you what’s waiting to be added to your inventory, giving you time to trash/sell/consume things), there’s no reason why the same thing wouldn’t happen if you try to add a weapon to a full inventory when swapping out of your elite specialization.

Or ANet could just let you keep the weapon equipped but dummy out all the skills it gives.

lordkrall.7241:

RyuDragnier.9476:

If anything they just need to buff several of the racial skills to a more useable level. For example, Warband Support is a poor man’s Thieves Guild, with the NPCs doing little damage and barely take a hit before disappearing, making it a horrible Elite skill. Buff the damage and the life on those NPCs a bit so they’re decent in both categories instead of kitten poor.

However I admit several other racial skills don’t need to be touched at all because they’re at a perfect level, such as Prayer to Dwayna, Battle Roar, and Grasping Vines.

But that is exactly what the Racial skills are supposed to be. Weak versions of profession skills.
Making them strong would more or less “force” people to choose a specific race for a specific profession in order to be “viable”.

Not necessarily. Why should any class take the Warband Support elite when every other elite is miles above it? Even if they were to buff the NPCs HP and damage a bit, it still wouldn’t be found as useful as the other skills. Every single one of these skills has a niche use, so it wouldn’t hurt to buff the near useless ones to decent level…most of the time they will not replace the regular healing, utility, or elite skills. Even if brought to such a decent level they’d still not replace the regular skills your class gets 80% of the time, so why not buff the useless ones so people can have fun with them in PvE?

OR, Anet can actually skill balance their game like they said they would and make it so the new skills/specs aren’t more powerful than the core stuff and therefore it won’t matter.

Seriously if I decide to buy this expansion and later find out I can’t spec my character to use the new weapon if I’m not using the new spec as well I’ll be real kittened off.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Seriously if I decide to buy this expansion and later find out I can’t spec my character to use the new weapon if I’m not using the new spec as well I’ll be real kittened off.

Good news, you won’t have to find out later, because you can find out now!

New Weapons

Elite specializations will always introduce a single new weapon type for your character. The ranger’s druid specialization will allow the ranger access to the staff weapon, while some other lucky profession will finally get access to a hammer. This means players of every profession will have a new moment-to-moment combat style to master. Some professions will be getting a single main-hand or off-hand weapon, but each weapon should really open up some new playstyles for a given profession. In order to equip this new weapon, you’ll have to both unlock and equip the appropriate elite specialization.

(Well, technically three months ago)

lordkrall.7241:

From here:

Now the elite spec should certainly improve the new weapon and utilities to warrant picking it when building like that, but exclusivity it should not.

I read that as you want them to be stronger, but reading it again now I see how I might have misunderstood it.

The reason for the exclusivity however is that you have to make a choice. Why else would anyone not use the Elite Spec?

I dont think you read wrong lordkrall, Yes OP says he wants weapon use on both core and elite specs but.

He then turns around and say the elite spec should boost said weapon making it stronger then when used for only core specs and thats as you pointed out aint what gw2 is about.

Thanks for the source quote that says you have to equip the elite spec to use the new weapon. I’m still curious what will happen to the weapon when the spec is dropped.
We’ve not seen forced disarming in the tech yet.

There are weapon improvement traits in most every spec (except ele). Which spec would you put the new weapon improvement traits but the elite one? It’s not to give an advantage over core. You should see I want to ex. equip war horn without tempest. The tempest spec only adds ally stun break. I do believe you need HOT to be able to use it though. Pay for new content. Same with shouts. Equipping tempest would be smart if you want bonuses for that skill type, but what if one skill has good utility with the rest of the core kit. I have to equip an entire spec for one skill? It would be like Mesmer needing inspiration to run time warp because it’s a glamour.

Matt H.6142:

Thanks for the source quote that says you have to equip the elite spec to use the new weapon. I’m still curious what will happen to the weapon when the spec is dropped.
We’ve not seen forced disarming in the tech yet.

There are weapon improvement traits in most every spec (except ele). Which spec would you put the new weapon improvement traits but the elite one? It’s not to give an advantage over core. You should see I want to ex. equip war horn without tempest. The tempest spec only adds ally stun break. I do believe you need HOT to be able to use it though. Pay for new content. Same with shouts. Equipping tempest would be smart if you want bonuses for that skill type, but what if one skill has good utility with the rest of the core kit. I have to equip an entire spec for one skill? It would be like Mesmer needing inspiration to run time warp because it’s a glamour.

That is the way they have designed it, yes. For example, the Reaper’s minor adept trait reads as follows:

You can equip greatswords and use reaper shouts. Death Shroud is replaced with Reaper’s Shroud, which has more melee oriented skills.

Matt H.6142:

Thanks for the source quote that says you have to equip the elite spec to use the new weapon. I’m still curious what will happen to the weapon when the spec is dropped.

I just created a character, went into HotM, equipped an off-hand weapon (unlocks at level 6), and hopped back into PvE; all that happens is the off-hand weapon has a lock icon appear over it (you can still unequip it) and the associated skills are disabled.

It’s reasonable to expect the same thing will happen if you’re wielding a weapon you no longer qualify to use: it’ll stay in your hand, but it and all its skills will be locked.

Pandaman.4758:

I just created a character, went into HotM, equipped an off-hand weapon (unlocks at level 6), and hopped back into PvE; all that happens is the off-hand weapon has a lock icon appear over it (you can still unequip it) and the associated skills are disabled.

It’s reasonable to expect the same thing will happen if you’re wielding a weapon you no longer qualify to use: it’ll stay in your hand, but it and all its skills will be locked.

Nice. Thank you. Very clever.
Still, I’m petitioning that after unlocking the new weapon, it can be used regardless of specialization. Leave the spec to augment the new content though.

Yes you can elite spec anywhere so weapons will work anywhere as long as you have the elite spec.

This is something that’s been bothering me about the design of the elite specs since the beginning. They’re completely self-contained, nothing that an elite spec introduces now will ever have any relevance to anything new that anet adds to the same class later down the road.

Want to bring along longbow on swap for your guard for that one boss but don’t want to have to adjust your traits to fit dragonhunter in? Oh well. Like the new warhorn offhand but think that you would prefer a different mainhand to pair with it? Well it’s too bad, then, because when you get that new mainhand with the next elite spec, you won’t be able to equip a warhorn at the same time.

We don’t need to take weapon traits to use core weapons as it is, they just make them (ostensibly) perform better. I’d like to see them expand that to elite spec weapons (and utilities?) as well. This would make things harder to balance, comparatively, but the way it works now just seems so limited for the long run.

Misconceptions people are getting:

•You’ll be stronger in an Elite spec. If you don’t have the expack purchased, you’re missing out.

•Weapons assigned to each elite spec can be used without the elite spec in your specialization bar.

Answer
No, Elite specs are only and will be only a glorified subclass. Not having this spec will NOT give you an insane power boost over the core class. You get a set of skills, utilities, a heal and an elite. That’s it. If you don’t have the expansion purchased, you’re not disadvantaged from someone who does.

Weapons that come with the elite spec can be used only when the elite spec is your elite spec specialization bar. You cannot use the weapon otherwise. Just like Necromancer can’t use GS without the Reaper spec and so on.

Then Anet has frankly failed at a very base level. Unlocking the elite spec should only allow your character to use the weapon as any other weapon, regardless if the elite spec is chosen or not.

This inability to use the weapon if you’re not using the spec actively flies in the face of player choice (again) and shows that Anet has had no intention to balance these new specs with the old.

@CH: if there is no real viable way for a core class to counter the new specs/weapons, then no it will not just be a glorified subclass, and the fact that Anet is making it so you’d HAVE to be in the spec to even use the new weapon hints that even THEY think those skills can be abused when used with other spec load outs.

If I bought the xpac and wanted to play with a bow on my guardian, but not use the DH spec line I should be allowed to do that as long as I have unlocked that spec line.

When you become a Druid, for example, you’ll get a new professional icon, you’ll have access to the new weapon and the new trait line. I don’t think ANet wants “half Druids” or “half Tempest,” people who are using the new traits or using the new weapon without the traits. How would the game put the new icon on the char if they did that? They want clear separations between the old profession and the new elite profession, possibly for programming reasons or WvW/PvP reasons. How about later when people get a new off hand and a new main hand? Can they mix those. Possibly a trait line from a third elite profession later in time?

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Then Anet has frankly failed at a very base level. Unlocking the elite spec should only allow your character to use the weapon as any other weapon, regardless if the elite spec is chosen or not.

This inability to use the weapon if you’re not using the spec actively flies in the face of player choice (again) and shows that Anet has had no intention to balance these new specs with the old.

What is sounds like you are suggesting flies in the face of what Anet has said they don’t want to do ever which is create a situation like in GW1 where they keep adding so many choices that it becomes impossible to balance. That degree of player choice was arguably destructive to the balance of the game. At least, Anet has said as much. Limiting the number of combinations an elite spec has access to reduces the permutations that Anet has to account for when balancing new elite specs in the future. There has been some criticism of how elite specs are being rolled out and what it means when more elite specs are added, some of which is valid, but I disagree with adding new weapons for core specs.

I guess where I’d take the discussion here is to ask people whether they feel adding new weapons to the core spec is vertical progression or horizontal progression or neither? For those proposing adding new weapons to the core spec for the forseeable future, what are the risks associated with doing so?

Matt H.6142:

I’m not sure where you got that from my op. In short, aftering unlocking the new weapon, it makes no sense that it can only be equipped with the elite spec slotted. Mechanically, what would the game do about un equipping skills and weapons when I change the elite out? What if I switch out on accident and now I have to reset everything?
Are you saying it’s not fair I can use new paid content unless it locks in 1/3 of my spec selection? This must be on the belief the new content puts out more damage. See guardian and ele elite specs to disprove that.

It will do the same thing it does to lower level characters that leave the Mist with off hand weapon equipped before you unlock offhand slot..

Not like something like that isn’t already in the game, like the example I just gave.

lordkrall.7241:

So basically: People with the expansion should be mechanically stronger by having access to Elite Specializations?

That is not really what Guild Wars 2 is about.

Well the developers outright stated that they did not want specializations to be a power increase.

But… I’m looking at the tempest warhorn, and all I can see is the dagger on a herculean amount of steroids.

All the fields last longer, are larger, freaking move, AND it has an extra water field. It doesn’t have a blast finisher but can boon stack, share, and buff without blast finishers so that’s not really a detraction.

And the only skill that has longer CDs than the base off hands, is the water field. It has the same average CD of 40 seconds as the base offhands. And when it comes to tbe base off hands, we’re not talking about godmode OP skills here, we’re talking about 40 second CD skills that do nothing but apply an aura or lay down a field for five seconds.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Then Anet has frankly failed at a very base level. Unlocking the elite spec should only allow your character to use the weapon as any other weapon, regardless if the elite spec is chosen or not.

This inability to use the weapon if you’re not using the spec actively flies in the face of player choice (again) and shows that Anet has had no intention to balance these new specs with the old.

That’s conflating a whole set of competing concepts into one big mess.

• Player choice remains: choose the elite spec…or don’t; it’s up to you.
• Balancing elite vs non-elite spec has nothing to do with whether a single weapon can or cannot be wielded. Builds have to be balanced for PvP, WvW, and PvE.

Maybe the problem is that people are confused by the word “elite,” which means “the best” of a group, whereas in GW2/HoT, an elite spec is just one that is limited to people who own the expac. Perhaps they should have called it, “Expansion Specialization,” since that’s all it is.

I’m not saying the system is perfect. I am saying let’s try to focus the criticism on things that are actually a problem; we don’t need to invent issues.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Then Anet has frankly failed at a very base level. Unlocking the elite spec should only allow your character to use the weapon as any other weapon, regardless if the elite spec is chosen or not.

Not that you can really do that now. How many people make condition warriors with greatswords or power necromancers with scepters?

Sure, you have the option to try to use any weapon as any other weapon, but weapons are currently balanced to favor one form of DPS over the other and traits are basically designed to enhance them; it’s hardly traits dictating what sort of weapons you can use, but what weapons you choose to use dictating what traits you should take.

Conncept.7638:

Well the developers outright stated that they did not want specializations to be a power increase.

But… I’m looking at the tempest warhorn, and all I can see is the dagger on a herculean amount of steroids.

Look closer. It might actually be a downgrade. The way Tempest is now (as was shown on PoI), i’d be loath to use its spec to replace one of the spec lines i am currently using.
Of course the Tempest currently seems to be the worst of all elite specs shown, it may be different for others (Chronomancer for example does look useful).

Pandaman.4758:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Then Anet has frankly failed at a very base level. Unlocking the elite spec should only allow your character to use the weapon as any other weapon, regardless if the elite spec is chosen or not.

Not that you can really do that now. How many people make condition warriors with greatswords or power necromancers with scepters?

Sure, you have the option to try to use any weapon as any other weapon, but weapons are currently balanced to favor one form of DPS over the other and traits are basically designed to enhance them; it’s hardly traits dictating what sort of weapons you can use, but what weapons you choose to use dictating what traits you should take.

The point is, I can choose to run those weapons with whatever trait (spec) loadout I want. That is on me to find a way to make it work or not make it work. What Anet is doing now is basically telling me that if I want to even run this weapon then I HAVE to choose the spec line its tied to or not even bother. That kills build diversity IMO and amounts to them telling me how to play my toon.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Pandaman.4758:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Then Anet has frankly failed at a very base level. Unlocking the elite spec should only allow your character to use the weapon as any other weapon, regardless if the elite spec is chosen or not.

Not that you can really do that now. How many people make condition warriors with greatswords or power necromancers with scepters?

Sure, you have the option to try to use any weapon as any other weapon, but weapons are currently balanced to favor one form of DPS over the other and traits are basically designed to enhance them; it’s hardly traits dictating what sort of weapons you can use, but what weapons you choose to use dictating what traits you should take.

The point is, I can choose to run those weapons with whatever trait (spec) loadout I want. That is on me to find a way to make it work or not make it work. What Anet is doing now is basically telling me that if I want to even run this weapon then I HAVE to choose the spec line its tied to or not even bother. That kills build diversity IMO and amounts to them telling me how to play my toon.

Be fair, it limits diversity, but it hardly kills it. You still have two other trait lines that you’re free to be completely inefficient with

stof.9341:

Or ANet could just let you keep the weapon equipped but dummy out all the skills it gives.

I think this is likely what will happen. You will keep the weapon equipped but will not be able to use any of the skills.

No you need to be elite speced to use the new weapon if you leave the spec you will not be able to use the weapon.

I’d Like to see Weapons and utility-skills be usable for core specs (that own the X-pac)
and only when we get the 2-nd elite spec to separate them

so for example: if we get a Spell-sword for eles next
we can split to core-ele/horn-shout-tempest/and sword-??-spellSword

and all the Elite spec does is changing the proff mechanics and give us the traits

Pandaman.4758:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Pandaman.4758:

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Then Anet has frankly failed at a very base level. Unlocking the elite spec should only allow your character to use the weapon as any other weapon, regardless if the elite spec is chosen or not.

Not that you can really do that now. How many people make condition warriors with greatswords or power necromancers with scepters?

Sure, you have the option to try to use any weapon as any other weapon, but weapons are currently balanced to favor one form of DPS over the other and traits are basically designed to enhance them; it’s hardly traits dictating what sort of weapons you can use, but what weapons you choose to use dictating what traits you should take.

The point is, I can choose to run those weapons with whatever trait (spec) loadout I want. That is on me to find a way to make it work or not make it work. What Anet is doing now is basically telling me that if I want to even run this weapon then I HAVE to choose the spec line its tied to or not even bother. That kills build diversity IMO and amounts to them telling me how to play my toon.

Be fair, it limits diversity, but it hardly kills it. You still have two other trait lines that you’re free to be completely inefficient with

This is very true. I just wish they gave us that option. By limiting it they are also further putting our playing on rails, and I don’t like that.

I get some of the reasons why, but it still doesn’t sit right with me.

Rin.1046:

stof.9341:

Or ANet could just let you keep the weapon equipped but dummy out all the skills it gives.

I think this is likely what will happen. You will keep the weapon equipped but will not be able to use any of the skills.

I just tested this on my Reaper. Swapping out of the Reaper spec tossed my GS into inventory and emptied all my utilities that were using Reaper-specific ones. I loaded up some other utilities, then reactivated the Reaper spec. The changed utilities remained and the GS stayed in my backpack. I right click equpped it and it replaced my staff in my second weapon set instead of filling in the top set. I had to reset the utilities once more and put my weapons where I wanted them. (I also had to reassign the trait selection, but that’s standard since there are no build templates).

So it’s not at all convenient to just swap back and forth between Elite and Core. If you get shoved into combat right after you pick a new spec you’re hosed, and I don’t know what happens if your bags are full when your weapon gets removed.

“You are encumbered”

GS floats in the “Take all” box that is generally reserved for my chest rewards!! ^ ^

That sounds like a great way to lose an expensive weapon. I hope they come up with a more secure and faster means of spec swapping.

Donari.5237:

I don’t know what happens if your bags are full when your weapon gets removed.

Likely the typical encumbered dialog pops up. That being said personally I’d prefer it gave us one skillbar for core and another for (each) specialization and just blanked the weapon skills when you have say a greatsword as a non-reaper necro. This would for example allow one weapon set to be for necro another for reaper (if you want the ability to swap quickly ooc, essentially would still mean sacrificing weapon swap for this).