Elite specs vs core specs
I never considered the trait line itself to be more powerful as such: it’s the builds that are more powerful, often because of the new weapon (that the trait line enhances) and more importantly the new class mechanic like Elemental Overloading.
None of the base trait lines give anything like that.
Nit picking
Elites are stronger and their stronger to get people to buy HoT
It would have been better to use the Ranger since that changes the role and is typically the one people use against power creep.
You didn’t mention Mesmer obviously because Chronomancer changes beans and instead adds on to the core class. You go from F1-4 skills to the same f1-4 skills plus an F5. In addition to the extra shatter the Mesmer is way to reliant on already they also have alacrity and built in speed buff freeing up your runes allowing greater freedom and diversity.
The time to argue about the power creep is long gone HoT launched a good while ago and aside classes like Druid that changed the role the power creep is pretty much fact at this point.
Who cares about PvE lol. You can play PvE with with literally no build.
The HoT specs dominate sPvP and WvW either due to insane sustain across the board or massive dps boost for the same sustain as core.
It would have been better to use the Ranger since that changes the role and is typically the one people use against power creep.
You didn’t mention Mesmer obviously because Chronomancer changes beans and instead adds on to the core class.
Note this part:
From a PVE point, they are NOT and I will go over some professions that I have experience with to explain why.
Who cares about PvE lol. You can play PvE with with literally no build.
The HoT specs dominate sPvP and WvW either due to insane sustain across the board or massive dps boost for the same sustain as core.
You can also play PvP WvW with no build if you wanted to. Doesn’t make that a good idea in any game mode though.
In short: In PVE, Elite specs are NOT more powerful than core specs, they are more powerful than the third core spec used to complete your build.
If a build which includes two core lines is stronger with the Elite line than with any of the other 3 core trait lines, then the entire build is stronger. When people talk about Elite lines being stronger, they’re talking about the new lines’ impact on the total build, not whether the new line is stronger than every core line.
If a build which includes two core lines is stronger with the Elite line than with any of the other 3 core trait lines, then the entire build is stronger. When people talk about Elite lines being stronger, they’re talking about the new lines’ impact on the total build, not whether the new line is stronger than every core line.
If the same 2 (or 1 in some cases) core trait lines are chosen by every build of a particular profession then aren’t those trait lines more problematic than the elite specs? That’s what I’m trying to say here, saying that Tempest is a problem because it’s mandatory and OP is missing how mandatory and OP Fire and Air trait lines are.
I don’t know what PvE builds you are running that you can’t get more out of elite builds than core ones.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
the thing is anet decided they are going to make a more traditional game
the classes will be balanced around elite specs and the core trait lines are there as bonuses
it will be much easier to balance the classes that way if they have few specific structures
the problem is that in order for this to work you need at least 2-3 elite specs per class and we only have one
imagine if in wow you had only one spec instead of 3.
its that level of ridicilous
I don’t know what PvE builds you are running that you can’t get more out of elite builds than core ones.
The meta builds from metabattle usually, I think I gave enough examples in my OP.
If the same 2 (or 1 in some cases) core trait lines are chosen by every build of a particular profession then aren’t those trait lines more problematic than the elite specs?
Not rly, to take your ele example: They play a dps role so they take dps traits. They don’t need the defense of earth or the healing from water. That’s completely normal tbh and doesn’t mean they’re overpowered.
For the record I agree with you about the elite specs when it comes to pve. There are some obvious examples you didn’t mention (condi ranger & any engi build), but I disagree with the word “problematic”.
I would say one of the biggest reasons certain traitlines don’t get used is the content doesn’t ask for it. When you need so little healing that druids need to use lifesteal food to fill up CA fast enough ppl don’t have the reflex to use a healing tempest. (also one of the reasons all but 4 classes are deleted from the game btw)
Another example is guardian. You say zeal is in every build, however, it hasn’t been in a proper PvP build for centuries.
And before ppl start nitpicking, I realise some stuff is actually broken. Balance definitely isn’t perfect.
If the same 2 (or 1 in some cases) core trait lines are chosen by every build of a particular profession then aren’t those trait lines more problematic than the elite specs? That’s what I’m trying to say here, saying that Tempest is a problem because it’s mandatory and OP is missing how mandatory and OP Fire and Air trait lines are.
The telling point is not that the Elite Spec is more powerful than the least valuable trait line in a core-only build, it’s that the Elite line offers access to more things than any of the core lines do, with the opportunity cost being only that least valuable line. They offer a new (often better) profession mechanic, access to better buffs (especially in teams) and new skills (weapon and utility). This flat out means a player (or team) running (an) Elite Spec[s] has more options than one which is not. So no, one of these things is not like the others, even though all three are considered mandatory.
Very true Indigo. To turn this on is head a bit, no core specialisation offers new weapons, new skills or new mechanics.
I for one can’t see any reason to not bring Daredevil on my thief, the third dodge and the “free skill/attack” you get when dodging is just too good to pass up on. Sure I’ll take the two best core trait lines for what I want to do but Daredevil is first and foremost for me. So much so that I’ve been wondering just what they can possibly do in the next expansion to tempt me away.
It’d be more diverse if we had multiple especs but if they’re only adding them with xpacs that take 2 years to make… ehh
It depends what you’re using them for. I mostly play solo PvE on my Ranger, so I almost never set her to Druid – everything exciting the Druid can do is exciting in groups.
I picked druid on my power ranger to see what it did, I keep meaning to turn it off again (the answer is: not a lot for open world pve).
If the same 2 (or 1 in some cases) core trait lines are chosen by every build of a particular profession then aren’t those trait lines more problematic than the elite specs?
Are they? To get back to the example you set, auramancer healer is water, air, tempest. No fire. PvP ele builds don’t usually include fire as well (but they definitely include tempest).
That’s what I’m trying to say here, saying that Tempest is a problem because it’s mandatory and OP is missing how mandatory and OP Fire and Air trait lines are.
Except they aren’t.
Also, you are still missing the point. Yes, it’s clear that, say, every fresh-air based ele build will need to include Air, but that completely ignores the part where it becomes so strong only because of Overload Air. It’s synergy that makes the elite traitlines so strong. It’s not the traitlines themselves that are so OP compared to other traitlines, it’s the builds based around these traitlines that are OP compared to other builds.
Every single ele build that does not include tempest traitline can be made stronger within the same role by exchanging the least important traitline for elite one.
This is mostly true for elite traitlines of the other classes, with the addition that some of them, on top of making previously existing roles stronger, can also define a completely new roles for the class.
There are some exceptions of course (condi ranger, for example doesn’t benefit from the druid traitline), but they are just that – exceptions. Not a norm.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Every single ele build that does not include tempest traitline can be made stronger within the same role by exchanging the least important traitline for elite one.
Exactly what I’m saying. You are exchanging the least important spec for an elite one, while the important specs are still more powerful than the elite specs themselves. I believe that’s because their original system was designed to have 2 specs maxed and not 3, back before the specialization patch. So while the original specs are balanced under that system, the elite specs were designed to be the 3rd one on your bar.
Every single ele build that does not include tempest traitline can be made stronger within the same role by exchanging the least important traitline for elite one.
Exactly what I’m saying. You are exchanging the least important spec for an elite one, while the important specs are still more powerful than the elite specs themselves.
No. They are not more powerful. They’re just build-defining. You can have good ele builds without fire or air. I gave you examples of ones (which you promptly ignored). All those builds however, in their best form, include Tempest traitline.
You can say whatever you want about core traitlines being better, but that still won’t change the fact that almost all meta builds in the game currently (with maybe 2-3 exceptions) are elite spec builds. And that trying to recreate those builds without elite spec traitlines will be either flat out impossible, or be a significant nerf to that build within its role.
Yes, that’s partly due to the fact that originally the traits weren’t designed around the idea of having full 3 traitlines, but that’s also because elite traitlines were designed very differently than the core ones. While core traitlines were made to enhance a specific role, elites were meant to enhance the class as a whole. That’s why they are the best as the third pick. And that’s why the elite spec builds (as opposed to elite traitlines) are OP compared to the core ones.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
You can have good ele builds without fire or air. I gave you examples of ones (which you promptly ignored).
That’s a different role (Healer role) of course it won’t use Fire, there was no reason to comment on that.
And that trying to recreate those builds without elite spec traitlines will be either flat out impossible, or be a significant nerf to that build within its role.
Of course, but it’s equally impossible to re-create those builds without their non-elite specs. There are some builds where Elite specs actually define them (Aurancer healer, Chronomancer, Druid, Herald) Where the elite spec is the actual “master” trait line, in other builds, the core specs are what define the build and the elite spec is the “best third option”.
It’s simple, finding use for the under-used core specializations is more important than nerfing Elite specs in order to make those under-used core specs look better.
Elites are stronger and their stronger to get people to buy HoT
^Pretty much this.
Rohan Blackraven | Allister Mortis | Mindblower Torxx
It’s simple, finding use for the under-used core specializations is more important than nerfing Elite specs in order to make those under-used core specs look better.
Massive oversimplification.
Core lines are designed around the idea that sustain, soak and glass are different things, and you cannot have all three because glass requires (at least) 2 lines. What’s so about the Elite lines is the drawbacks to glass are less prevalent due to things like increased access to invulnerability, evasion, sustain, condi remove, etc. are more readily available with the Elite Spec. There’s also the increased options thing which you conveniently ignore.
Let’s face it. Elite specs are not going to be nerfed too much, because that reduces their appeal, which could (will) diminish sales. And you’re barking up the wrong tree and cherry picking who to respond to while ignoring other points of view that you (apparently) have no counter for.
It’s simple, finding use for the under-used core specializations is more important than nerfing Elite specs in order to make those under-used core specs look better.
Massive oversimplification.
Core lines are designed around the idea that sustain, soak and glass are different things, and you cannot have all three because glass requires (at least) 2 lines. What’s so about the Elite lines is the drawbacks to glass are less prevalent due to things like increased access to invulnerability, evasion, sustain, condi remove, etc. are more readily available with the Elite Spec. There’s also the increased options thing which you conveniently ignore.
Let’s face it. Elite specs are not going to be nerfed too much, because that reduces their appeal, which could (will) diminish sales. And you’re barking up the wrong tree and cherry picking who to respond to while ignoring other points of view that you (apparently) have no counter for.
I doubt they will nerf the elite specs in any significant way, the only kind of nerf that would “help” is reducing the options they provide, and that’s not likely to happen. Reducing a few numbers here and there won’t make the elite specs less desirable because as you say the elite specs bring to builds more options and number tweaking can’t help much with that.
Buffing the under-performing trait lines on their respective “build” can open up builds. Like, if there is no condi build for a profession and there is a trait line that offers better condition damage (that nobody uses) buff that trait line so the condi damage build is competitive. Of course that can happen only if the next elite specs aren’t going to nerf core specs again.
You can have good ele builds without fire or air. I gave you examples of ones (which you promptly ignored).
That’s a different role (Healer role) of course it won’t use Fire, there was no reason to comment on that.
You kept mentioning that all the ele builds use fire, so it seemed as if you were unaware that there are other builds than just PvE dps ones. Or as if they didn’t fit your thesis, so you ignored them.
And that trying to recreate those builds without elite spec traitlines will be either flat out impossible, or be a significant nerf to that build within its role.
Of course, but it’s equally impossible to re-create those builds without their non-elite specs.
Yes. But again, you seem to ignore the fact, that there are roles that use different core traitlines. Not all of them use fire and air. And yet, all of them do use Tempest.
There are some builds where Elite specs actually define them (Aurancer healer, Chronomancer, Druid, Herald) Where the elite spec is the actual “master” trait line, in other builds, the core specs are what define the build and the elite spec is the “best third option”.
Yes. And in such a case, they are almost uniformly the best third option. Because, when you create a specialized build, and you’d need at most 2 traitlines to define that specialization, you’d almost always use the traitline that supports this very role, over one that gives you bonuses for things that lie outside that role.
It’s simple, finding use for the under-used core specializations is more important than nerfing Elite specs in order to make those under-used core specs look better.
That would require completely redoing those core lines to the point where they wouldn’t be role-defining anymore.
If, for example, you change Fire into a traitline that will benefit all the roles, it will no longer be the dps traitline (because, to gain something you need to lose something).
Buffing the under-performing trait lines on their respective “build” can open up builds. Like, if there is no condi build for a profession and there is a trait line that offers better condition damage (that nobody uses) buff that trait line so the condi damage build is competitive.
We can’t do that. Why? Because that build would also be enhanced by going elite spec. Currently almost no core traitline is designed to be the third one (the one that enhances a build, instead of shaping it). You can buff them, but that will only make them more desirable as the main traitlines. And then use the elite in the third slot, and make that just buffed build even stronger.
The only way to bring core builds up to par is to make sure that every class has one “general purpose” traitline designed in similar way as Elites are now (In some cases, such traitlines do already exist, they are just way too weak compared to elite ones – in case of Ele, that would be Arcane). And that this traitline and elite one must be mutually exclusive. And you’d need either uncouple skills and weapon from elite specs, or make a similar attached option (weapon and skill type) unique to that traitline.
In short, you’d need to make Core Elite Specs.
There must be a meaningful choice in picking elite. Currently there is none – you gain a lot by sacrificing almost nothing. That (again) is why elite specs are OP compared to core. They offer a straight upgrade to the class, against what was originally promised.
.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
(edited by Astralporing.1957)
This is getting really about Eles and not elite specs in general but oh well.
You kept mentioning that all the ele builds use fire, so it seemed as if you were unaware that there are other builds than just PvE dps ones. Or as if they didn’t fit your thesis, so you ignored them.
The most used Ele builds use Fire because even though the Auramancer build exist it’s not the top healer on most encounters, it’s a rare build anyway. Maybe using Warrior or Thief would be better examples.
If, for example, you change Fire into a traitline that will benefit all the roles, it will no longer be the dps traitline (because, to gain something you need to lose something).
That’s so sad, you must’ve forgotten how each core spec has 9 different traits. They can make each specialization fulfill 3 distinct roles with those traits.
Let’s take Fire for example, Burning Precision, Pyromancer’s Training and Persisting Flames are the go-to damage traits, one is condition based but damage nonetheless. Then you have Burning Fire and Blinding Ashes which are defensive abilities, both have a use and back in the day were used by Eles in PVP a lot. Unfortunately there is no good Adept defensive trait to complete that role.
The remaining traits are just lame. One with Fire tells us that some developer wanted Fire to be a condition damage trait line, combined with Burning Precision, but it’s completely underwhelming. There is no grandmaster trait for a condition build while Pyromancer’s Puissance and Conjurer are struggling to find any use.
In other words, Fire can support 3 roles, direct damage, condition damage and defensive / condition removal (mostly for PVP due to blind being useless against bosses in PVE). Direct damage combined with Air, condition damage combined with Earth and defensive combined with either Earth or Water (or both). However, as we are now, the only usage for Fire is for damage builds because the other roles aren’t supported enough by the Fire traits. There is also a possibility if they made Conjurer better to combine Fire/Water in a Conjure build (using Piercing Shards in Water will be a DPS boost)
The other specializations are similar.
Air is mostly power damage spec with some crowd control, but offers two distinct ways of playing a power damage build.
Earth is about bleeds and protection, offering anti condition and anti-power abilities.
Water is about healing, cleansing and power damage.
There is no “damage specialization”. Each specialization has a variety of options, it’s just some of them are useless meaning only a few of the traits from each spec even get picked and used.
We can’t do that.
Earth is supposed to be the condition and toughness trait line but there is no competitive condition damage build for Eles. They could make it so Earth and Fire are the go-to trait lines for an Ele condition damage build. That’s the kind of buff I’m talking about. If they can’t buff Earth because it will still use Tempest as the third spec, then the only way Eles will ever get a valid condition specialization would be in a future elite spec. Why do we have to wait for another elite spec to get a valid condition damage build for Eles?
Earth is supposed to be the condition and toughness trait line but there is no competitive condition damage build for Eles. They could make it so Earth and Fire are the go-to trait lines for an Ele condition damage build. That’s the kind of buff I’m talking about.
Then the condi build would use Fire, Earth, and Tempest traitlines.
If they can’t buff Earth because it will still use Tempest as the third spec, then the only way Eles will ever get a valid condition specialization would be in a future elite spec. Why do we have to wait for another elite spec to get a valid condition damage build for Eles?
We don’t, but we were not talking about buffing up unused traits and traitlines (which, by the way, i fully agree with). We were talking about how elite specs are or aren’t OP compared to core. And in this discussion, buffing the core traitlines for specific roles will not change much.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Buffing the under-performing trait lines on their respective “build” can open up builds. Like, if there is no condi build for a profession and there is a trait line that offers better condition damage (that nobody uses) buff that trait line so the condi damage build is competitive. Of course that can happen only if the next elite specs aren’t going to nerf core specs again.
One question is, “Are the under-used traits under-performing, or are they simply not perceived to be needed in most aspects of PvE?” My answer is, “The under-used traits are not out-of-balance, they are perceived as not needed.” Another question is, “If a trait or line boosts one’s survival, but you have to sacrifice (group) damage to get it, would meta players do that even if the survival/other trait/line is buffed to be obscenely OP?” My answer is, “Such traits would be incorporated into a meta only if their use was deemed mandatory to beat the content, as we see in raids with unavoidable damage necessitating a healer.”
To my mind, the prevalence of damage-based, particularly team damage-based traits in PvE meta builds is a very old issue. Elite Specs weren’t going to change that, but they do add greater capability across all builds. That’s what people are talking about when they say Elites are too good. It’s not just that they’re a better third option in a given build. It’s more like they are the better option across all (or at least most) builds.
Let’s face it. Elite specs are not going to be nerfed too much, because that reduces their appeal, which could (will) diminish sales..
I see this idea everywhere, and it’s wrong.
There is no data or evendience that links power with sales. Class balance and power is the concern of existing customers not potential customers.
Nobody says “Hey that expac has a cool trailer, I wonder what the balance is like.” Flashy trailers and content are what sell copies. If GW2’s F2P is engaging enough players will buy into the expac regardless of elites, simply to access the content. If they aren’t interested in the content then they probably won’t buy regardless of what elites are like.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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Let’s face it. Elite specs are not going to be nerfed too much, because that reduces their appeal, which could (will) diminish sales..
I see this idea everywhere, and it’s wrong.
There is no data or evendience that links power with sales. Class balance and power is the concern of existing customers not potential customers.
Nobody says “Hey that expac has a cool trailer, I wonder what the balance is like.” Flashy trailers and content are what sell copies. If GW2’s F2P is engaging enough players will buy into the expac regardless of elites, simply to access the content. If they aren’t interested in the content then they probably won’t buy regardless of what elites are like.
Unless you’re a PvP player. In which case, you need to buy HoT merely to be on the same playing field as your competitors.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Let’s face it. Elite specs are not going to be nerfed too much, because that reduces their appeal, which could (will) diminish sales..
I see this idea everywhere, and it’s wrong.
There is no data or evendience that links power with sales. Class balance and power is the concern of existing customers not potential customers.
Nobody says “Hey that expac has a cool trailer, I wonder what the balance is like.” Flashy trailers and content are what sell copies. If GW2’s F2P is engaging enough players will buy into the expac regardless of elites, simply to access the content. If they aren’t interested in the content then they probably won’t buy regardless of what elites are like.
In order for that idea to be wrong you should be able to disprove it. Otherwise it would be more accurate to say that the idea is unproven, not that it is wrong.
I, as an example, bought the expansion in spite of the off-putting trailers and content, not because of them.
Let’s face it. Elite specs are not going to be nerfed too much, because that reduces their appeal, which could (will) diminish sales..
I see this idea everywhere, and it’s wrong.
There is no data or evendience that links power with sales. Class balance and power is the concern of existing customers not potential customers.
Nobody says “Hey that expac has a cool trailer, I wonder what the balance is like.” Flashy trailers and content are what sell copies. If GW2’s F2P is engaging enough players will buy into the expac regardless of elites, simply to access the content. If they aren’t interested in the content then they probably won’t buy regardless of what elites are like.
What’s wrong is saying that factor A is the entirety of what drives sales while factor B has no bearing whatsoever. Businesses make money by offering products that appeal to as many people as possible. Sure, ANet might make “enough” money to keep the business going via the initial customer rush, most of which is generated by some combination of hype and/or customer loyalty.
However, there are going to be people who don’t opt in over the hype. Some of those people are going to adopt later due to various reasons, one of which is going to be staying relevant in game metas. All the evidence you need for that is to see the many posts complaining that to stay relevant the player needs to buy access to the Elite Specs. Diminished sales means just that, not diminished below what’s enough to stay open. Have you ever seen a business which would turn its back on more sales?
Now, maybe the thought never crossed the minds of anyone at Anet that there were going to be people who would buy solely to avoid being at a disadvantage in competitive play. I prefer to think that’s not the case. Ymmv.
What about Necromancer? Power builds are Spite/BM/Reaper. Condi builds are Curses/DM/Reaper or Curses/BM/Reaper. most popular PvP build is Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper, and Wuv it’s Curses/Soul Reaping/Reaper. (the Spite one, by the way, is also seen a lot in classic dungeon runs where you don’t need the life steal or minions to sustain against T4 fractal encounters)
In all of these, it’s the Elite spec- Reaper- that is the constant, and pretty much every Necro player will tell you that having Reaper is pretty much a necessity to functioning on the level they do today, whether it’s making chill another source of condition damage or extra crit from Vuln and a DS that actually does good damage or actual Stability and more CC and reduced damage from chilled foes.
You might be able to argue elite specs are only better than the bottom 3-4 specs for other professions, but please, tell me how Reaper isn’t better than Spite or Curses when running a regular Necro in anything is guaranteed to getting blamed for everything that ever goes wrong.
(edited by Foefaller.1082)
What about Necromancer? Power builds are Spite/BM/Reaper. Condi builds are Curses/DM/Reaper or Curses/BM/Reaper. most popular PvP build is Spite/Soul Reaping/Reaper, and Wuv it’s Curses/Soul Reaping/Reaper. (the Spite one, by the way, is also seen a lot in classic dungeon runs where you don’t need the life steal or minions to sustain against T4 fractal encounters)
In all of these, it’s the Elite spec- Reaper- that is the constant, and pretty much every Necro player will tell you that having Reaper is pretty much a necessity to functioning on the level they do today, whether it’s making chill another source of condition damage or extra crit from Vuln and a DS that actually does good damage or actual Stability and more CC and reduced damage from chilled foes.
You might be able to argue elite specs are only better than the bottom 3-4 specs for other professions, but please, tell me how Reaper isn’t better than Spite or Curses when running a regular Necro in anything is guaranteed to getting blamed for everything that ever goes wrong.
IMO necro is a pretty poor example considering they were terrible pre-HoT and they just slapped reaper on there as a band aid fix instead of actually changing stuff up. Anyway, from a pve perspective hopefully we’ll see some core abilities buffed next balance patch considering their “minor bugfix” made the class the most completely irrelevant class in the game.
Then the condi build would use Fire, Earth, and Tempest traitlines.
I think you are forgetting that before HoT the “3rd traitline” of Eles was always Arcane. It’s not like the issue of having a fixed build is new with HoT.
And in this discussion, buffing the core traitlines for specific roles will not change much.
Depends on the kind of buff they will get. The alternative is what? Nerf elite specs?
One question is, “Are the under-used traits under-performing, or are they simply not perceived to be needed in most aspects of PvE?” My answer is, “The under-used traits are not out-of-balance, they are perceived as not needed.”
I disagree and I gave an example with how the fire traits for Eles should work to support condition damage and a defensive playstyle but they do not because the traits are underwhelming for that job. Missing traits for those roles is another problem, there is no major defensive trait in Fire, and no Grandmaster condition trait. In my opinion each specialization should be given 3 roles and support all 3 equally. Or offer a clear variation of single role (like Air having 2 different damage role options)
It’s more like they are the better option across all (or at least most) builds.
I’m not sure about all builds but for certain professions I’m sure in the “old days” before HoT that third trait slot was taken by a very specific traitline for nearly all builds. Thief builds were using Trickery as their third line, Elementalists were using Arcane and Guardians were using Virtues. Now they are using Daredevil, Tempest and Dragonhunter respectively (although sometimes you can mix Dragonhunter and Virtues). If you remove elite specs then the “problem” is still there as there was always a traitline that was a better option for most builds, it’s usually the one that buffed the profession mechanics. And in most cases it’s the one that was swapped out for the elite spec.
Maybe if they turned those into elite specs it would help
If you remove elite specs then the “problem” is still there as there was always a traitline that was a better option for most builds, it’s usually the one that buffed the profession mechanics. And in most cases it’s the one that was swapped out for the elite spec.
Maybe if they turned those into elite specs it would help
The problem with core builds is that there aren’t any builds that need traits from three core lines to function. The third traitline was always a “whats the best leftover traitline.” Elite specs offer something valuable to put in that less that necessary traitline spot.
This is because of how core traitlines are designed. Traitlines each fulfill one area: 1 defensive line, 1 power offensive line, 1 condi offensive line, 1 utility/support line, and 1 class mechanic line.
The problem is that builds are never designed to be filling three roles, so that third line is always a weak pick for any build. Hence the dominance of Especs.
Sanity is for the weak minded.
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The arguments of OP are not correct, explained in this thread several times. But for example I run a condi ranger build and it’s stronger than a druid build, same goes with condi engineer being stronger than scrapper. So there is some diversity. But generally speaking, yes the elite specs make the classes better in many ways.
‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong
‘would of been’ —> wrong
Gonna have to comment on op thief stance. DD is a must imo. The mobility alone is so much better than anything core can offer.
Serenity now~Insanity later
The arguments of OP are not correct, explained in this thread several times. But for example I run a condi ranger build and it’s stronger than a druid build, same goes with condi engineer being stronger than scrapper. So there is some diversity. But generally speaking, yes the elite specs make the classes better in many ways.
Druid and Scrapper are pretty much the sole exceptions as they are extremely focused on non-dps related roles – support and healing for Druid, tanking and PvP utility for Scrapper. In those situations, you will always see them, but when it comes maximizing their personal damage -especially Condi damage- those specs have little-to-nothing to offer on that front.
Once in a blue moon you might see a pure Guardian, but the conditions where that is better than a Dragonhunter (basically as the 2nd Guardian of a group that has little-to-no other sources of group might and other support) are rather rare.
Everyone else, the benefits you get with the elite spec outstrip anything you could pick in it’s place in pretty much every situation, PvE, PvP, or Wvw.
I disagree and I gave an example with how the fire traits for Eles should work to support condition damage and a defensive playstyle but they do not because the traits are underwhelming for that job. Missing traits for those roles is another problem, there is no major defensive trait in Fire, and no Grandmaster condition trait. In my opinion each specialization should be given 3 roles and support all 3 equally. Or offer a clear variation of single role (like Air having 2 different damage role options)
OK? So, questions:
- How many roles are you going to support?
- Are they going to be traditional roles (tank, heal, damage, etc.) or more like the roles that have evolved in GW2 meta play (defensive boon support, bunker, might stacker, etc.)?
- What are you going to do with Minor traits, which mostly support one role as is (e.g., Water Minors are all healing related)?
- If one is going to adopt, for example, the condi damage role, would there be opportunity costs across trait lines, or would there just be three lines one would “need” to take, with the traits a no-brainer? Either way, how do you see that change adding diversity? Meta play is going to settle on the roles perceived as needed for the content and will identify the best build choices for that role. Even if your proposed change created other viable options, how would you force players looking for the optimal build to be willing to accept those other options?
I’m not sure about all builds but for certain professions I’m sure in the “old days” before HoT that third trait slot was taken by a very specific traitline for nearly all builds. Thief builds were using Trickery as their third line, Elementalists were using Arcane and Guardians were using Virtues. Now they are using Daredevil, Tempest and Dragonhunter respectively (although sometimes you can mix Dragonhunter and Virtues). If you remove elite specs then the “problem” is still there as there was always a traitline that was a better option for most builds, it’s usually the one that buffed the profession mechanics. And in most cases it’s the one that was swapped out for the elite spec.
Maybe if they turned those into elite specs it would help
So, someone who wanted a Beastmaster ranger would be unable to use Druid (not that I’d want to, but that may not hold if/when new Elite Specs for Rangers appear)? You’d kill a bunch of existing builds if you turned the profession line into an Elite Line. I’m sure there would be players in PvP/WvW who’d be happy to see some of the builds that currently use the profession and Elite lines take that hit.
- How many roles are you going to support?
3 at best. Something like Top 3 traits → 1 role, Mid 3 traits → 1 role, Bottom 3 traits → 1 role. Sometimes a spec can support the same role twice but with different playstyles or different weapons (like Air supporting two types of DPS, one with and one without Fresh Air).
- Are they going to be traditional roles (tank, heal, damage, etc.) or more like the roles that have evolved in GW2 meta play (defensive boon support, bunker, might stacker, etc.)?
Not like traditional roles like tank/healer/damage that wouldn’t fit the game at all. I’m not talking about reworking every single trait in the game, just those that nobody uses so they support a role better.
- What are you going to do with Minor traits, which mostly support one role as is (e.g., Water Minors are all healing related)?
Well since we can’t change minor traits that can indeed cause problems. One of the better features of the Elite specs is that their minor traits all buff their respective new abilities so they are always useful if you select the elite spec. That’s not really possible with the other specs (other than the “profession” specs like Strength and Trickery)
- Either way, how do you see that change adding diversity?
We can see it in the Ranger now, which is probably one of the better professions. You can spec for a Druid which is a great Healer, or not take Druid and spec for condition damage and be highly competitive as a condition damage dealer. If you take a look at the meta builds for Rangers every single specialization is used (with Skirmishing being used on every single build).
However even though all specs are used not all traits are being used because some traits are not powerful enough compared to others. For example in Skirmishing there are traits that give damage boost for both power (Most Dangerous Game) and condition builds (Light on your Feet) but they are overshadowed by Quick Draw, the more “general” trait, and not used in the Power and Condition builds. Because they aren’t so good traits.
You’d kill a bunch of existing builds if you turned the profession line into an Elite Line.
That’s true, but how many builds “died” with the specialization update? I’m sure way more since back then we could take traits from every specialization at the same time.
Killing builds is a touchy subject and it would be really hard to balance these “new” elite specs, I’m not even sure if they could do this properly, if they chose to do it. The balance team doesn’t inspire confidence.