Guild Wars 2

So, here I am, trying to start the legendary armor collection and I’m stumped.

I’ve been trying to get in raids for the past few months since my guild is very small. How can you get these collections from raids when no one will accept you? I’ve been able to get the Vale Guardian collection, but Gors and Sab I cannot because people say Dragonhunters don’t do enough damage or provide enough utility.

Raiding is about adaptability, practice playing something more desirable and you won’t have too much of an issue.

Have you tried forming your own raid?

Yes, I have a set of almost all could-be raid required armor sets + weapons. Yet no one will take me because I’m a “Guardian.” The only one I can get into is VG as a tank.

Also, I get “you might have been invited but you’ve never beaten it, let alone tried it.” But how is someone supposed to try it or beat it when no one will let you in?

Vulcan.7035:

Yes, I have a set of almost all could-be raid required armor sets + weapons. Yet no one will take me because I’m a “Guardian.” The only one I can get into is VG as a tank.

Also, I get “you might have been invited but you’ve never beaten it, let alone tried it.” But how is someone supposed to try it or beat it when no one will let you in?

lots of people don’t like wasting time, events like this every single player is important… if people don’t want guardian, join a bigger guild with a mumble server or something so you can VoIP, some classes will be flawed without good communication.

We’ve killed all bosses with a DH in the group, its not really any issue and forming your own group looks to be the best bet if pugs are being difficult.

I suggest starting a guild and inviting your friends who are interested in raiding, decide a schedule and then make adverts fro the roles/classes you’re missing. Explain your attitude to raiding and learn as a group (there is plenty info on youtube to help you).

Vulcan.7035:

Yes, I have a set of almost all could-be raid required armor sets + weapons. Yet no one will take me because I’m a “Guardian.” The only one I can get into is VG as a tank.

Also, I get “you might have been invited but you’ve never beaten it, let alone tried it.” But how is someone supposed to try it or beat it when no one will let you in?

Be there on day 1 when raids released and nobody had it done.

This is something that happens in MMOs – content is released – everyone starts doing it – but if you’re not part of those people who got on it right away you might find yourself excluded later because of lack of experience -and for good reason.

It makes sense that with Raids being difficult you want people with experience.

My advice to you is to try the raid as a different class OR set-up your own teams.

It’s the same as the real world’s : will only hire people with experience – but nobody will hire you if you don’t have experience so how are you supposed to get the experience to get hired in the first place?

You can always make a herald and faceroll through all the bosses.

I wanna roll my guard too, but… I play what I’m told to play. Such is the way of team effort and loyalty to the “shirt”.

Altair.8402:

You can always make a herald and faceroll through all the bosses.

This is what I find so frustrating that I can’t play my main character and progress forward with things I’d like to do.

And this is why I hate raids with a passion. People can’t get their foot in the door and others (understandably) want to get it done quickly and efficiently.

I honestly couldn’t care less about some reward chest at the end, but not being able to experience content because I have a full time job and can’t dedicate so many hours to one long run, messing around with a larger than usual group… yeah… no. Scale it down and let me at it solo or with a small group, it’d be done no problem. It’s just the group size and the mentality large group content encourages that are the obstacles.

Vulcan.7035:

Altair.8402:

You can always make a herald and faceroll through all the bosses.

This is what I find so frustrating that I can’t play my main character and progress forward with things I’d like to do.

I get you, but unfortunately that’s one of the problems with this kind of content. People want to complete it with the least amount of problems as possible and that means only taking the classes they deem best for such.

I think this one is really funny: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/13427956?t=28m05s

I mean yeah it’s probably possible to do a raid with 3x thief dps, 3x ranger dps, 2x necros dps, a ele healer and a guard tank. But you are shooting yourself into the shoe.

Also not to mention the requirement to have the right gear. Yeah you can be a condi player as what ever profession you have, but you need the equipment first anyway.

Neox.3497:

I think this one is really funny: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/13427956?t=28m05s

I mean yeah it’s probably possible to do a raid with 3x thief dps, 3x ranger dps, 2x necros dps, a ele healer and a guard tank. But you are shooting yourself into the shoe.

Also not to mention the requirement to have the right gear. Yeah you can be a condi player as what ever profession you have, but you need the equipment first anyway.

Wow, I never saw that. What he says is the exact opposite of what is happening. ;(

Vulcan.7035:

Neox.3497:

I think this one is really funny: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/13427956?t=28m05s

I mean yeah it’s probably possible to do a raid with 3x thief dps, 3x ranger dps, 2x necros dps, a ele healer and a guard tank. But you are shooting yourself into the shoe.

Also not to mention the requirement to have the right gear. Yeah you can be a condi player as what ever profession you have, but you need the equipment first anyway.

Wow, I never saw that. What he says is the exact opposite of what is happening. ;(

Oh and the two minutes earlier are also interesting: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/13427956?t=26m59s

I really love how the ‘holy-trinity’ gets bashed over and over and when we have these “my class in not viable in XYZ” nobody thinks that’s its because of the lack of ACTUAL roles. Maybe dd, tank and healer is boring and stale but at least it works and is most important ‘balanced’.

Also don’t try to come with “damage, control and support” it’s not the same and doesn’t work. The main problem is how (because of the lack of actual roles that multiple professions can fulfill) some professions BECOME a role and most other profession aren’t able to fill that role (or much worse).

Some ‘role’ examples are the warrior for banners, thief/engie for a lot of stealth, mesmer for alacrity and in general the imbalance of max DPS of professions.

So yeah I’m not asking for a ‘holy-trinity’ but for more ‘balance’ between the professions by making the ‘meta-roles’ (the op-roles) more accessible to other professions and more balanced in general.

Chameleon Dude.1564:

And this is why I hate raids with a passion. People can’t get their foot in the door and others (understandably) want to get it done quickly and efficiently.

Same can be said for the entire HOT expansion, if you weren’t in the land rush at the beginning you’re SOL, maps are often empty, no one’s doing many of the events due to poor rewards, too much of a PITA, etc.

If you are trying to pug your way into raids via lfg understand that you are a stranger to them. They dont owe you anything John Snow, and they cherry pick people off lfg based on their needs, what is best, what is safe. They do this because as you said raids have been out for months and theyve failed in the past, they dont want to spend more time in raids due to individuals being subpar. A guardian is nothing like that in the “meta”, at least thats what the majority thinks, and it is true to an extent.

If you relay on strangers and outsiders, you must accept that you have to cater to their needs. It’s like applying for a job that requires some CV. Make a Warrior, a herald, mesmer, druid, or a Tempest, and once you’ve proven yourself in one or a few pugs, ask them to add you or add them, so that next week you may have some to play with. Thats what I did, and Im no longer a benchwarmer cuz I stepped up my game. It’s a cold world out there, it aint for all son.

Neox.3497:

Vulcan.7035:

Neox.3497:

I think this one is really funny: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/13427956?t=28m05s

I mean yeah it’s probably possible to do a raid with 3x thief dps, 3x ranger dps, 2x necros dps, a ele healer and a guard tank. But you are shooting yourself into the shoe.

Also not to mention the requirement to have the right gear. Yeah you can be a condi player as what ever profession you have, but you need the equipment first anyway.

Wow, I never saw that. What he says is the exact opposite of what is happening. ;(

Oh and the two minutes earlier are also interesting: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/13427956?t=26m59s

I really love how the ‘holy-trinity’ gets bashed over and over and when we have these “my class in not viable in XYZ” nobody thinks that’s its because of the lack of ACTUAL roles. Maybe dd, tank and healer is boring and stale but at least it works and is most important ‘balanced’.

Also don’t try to come with “damage, control and support” it’s not the same and doesn’t work. The main problem is how (because of the lack of actual roles that multiple professions can fulfill) some professions BECOME a role and most other profession aren’t able to fill that role (or much worse).

Some ‘role’ examples are the warrior for banners, thief/engie for a lot of stealth, mesmer for alacrity and in general the imbalance of max DPS of professions.

So yeah I’m not asking for a ‘holy-trinity’ but for more ‘balance’ between the professions by making the ‘meta-roles’ (the op-roles) more accessible to other professions and more balanced in general.

Regardless of what professions can do what role – the profession that does it better will become that role. That’s a given because that’s how people work.
You’re asking for classes to be brought closer together in terms of performance for certain roles but that throws a wench in class balance and uniqueness.

nacario.9417:

If you are trying to pug your way into raids via lfg understand that you are a stranger to them. They dont owe you anything John Snow, and they cherry pick people off lfg based on their needs, what is best, what is safe. They do this because as you said raids have been out for months and theyve failed in the past, they dont want to spend more time in raids due to individuals being subpar. A guardian is nothing like that in the “meta”, at least thats what the majority thinks, and it is true to an extent.

If you relay on strangers and outsiders, you must accept that you have to cater to their needs. It’s like applying for a job that requires some CV. Make a Warrior, a herald, mesmer, druid, or a Tempest, and once you’ve proven yourself in one or a few pugs, ask them to add you or add them, so that next week you may have some to play with. Thats what I did, and Im no longer a benchwarmer cuz I stepped up my game. It’s a cold world out there, it aint for all son.

Yes – but this is hard. And people don’t want hard – they want it easy. They want to pick up raids whenever and have teams full of people 9/10 ready for them to go.
They don’t want to go through the trouble of finding a team, learning, putting in the time ( or making the time to put in) – they want to just roll over raids like it’s some open world event and they have a 40 man zerg on their side.

Harper.4173:

nacario.9417:

If you are trying to pug your way into raids via lfg understand that you are a stranger to them. They dont owe you anything John Snow, and they cherry pick people off lfg based on their needs, what is best, what is safe. They do this because as you said raids have been out for months and theyve failed in the past, they dont want to spend more time in raids due to individuals being subpar. A guardian is nothing like that in the “meta”, at least thats what the majority thinks, and it is true to an extent.

If you relay on strangers and outsiders, you must accept that you have to cater to their needs. It’s like applying for a job that requires some CV. Make a Warrior, a herald, mesmer, druid, or a Tempest, and once you’ve proven yourself in one or a few pugs, ask them to add you or add them, so that next week you may have some to play with. Thats what I did, and Im no longer a benchwarmer cuz I stepped up my game. It’s a cold world out there, it aint for all son.

Yes – but this is hard. And people don’t want hard – they want it easy. They want to pick up raids whenever and have teams full of people 9/10 ready for them to go.
They don’t want to go through the trouble of finding a team, learning, putting in the time ( or making the time to put in) – they want to just roll over raids like it’s some open world event and they have a 40 man zerg on their side.

Then as you say they should stick with the other open content GW2 has to offer which caters to many golly gee.
I agree that it isnt easy to get into a pug as a random, some times during days theres no interest in the lfg. But raids will always be about understanding the mechanic and execute accordingly to succeed, something all other content dont have, which is the new type of thing part from fractals. New is good, it adds to the diversity GW2 needs.

Here my two cents from my raid group point of view.

There is some balance issue and that’s anet fault. True enough some profession will always be better, but right now, there is some issue like the fact that pretty much all the advantages of the guardian are near useless or done better by the herald for raid.

That said, raid is all about adaptability. I run in guild and our group is now about 20+ in size. We don’t mind any decent build as long as we can form a working squad with it. We kill bosses with thief, guardian, zerker necros, etc. It’s not a problem. But we also ask of our fellow raider to create other profession for raid so we can have better groups and always have the possibility to fill important role like buffer, tanks and healers.

IMO this is an important thing in raid. You should have several option available to your group when they need it. That you want to stay on your main is legitimate, but don’t really work with the raid mentality. My main is a guardian too, but I have a lot of fun on my engineer and elementalist for raid. I still play my guardian 90% of my time in game, just not in raids. Who know, maybe the next wing will have a raid boss where aegis, protection and reflect will be important at the same time.

Tbh honest. Pugs also have a lot of trouble with raids. 1-2 Guardian is fine a VG and 2 Guardian hammer is actually good at sabethar. But pugs fear to waste hours with a bad groups, so they ask for the best they know. (which isn’t always the best in-game).

My guess is that professions that are left out now will have specific sections where they’ll be more effective in coming wings.

Pugs are right to not waste time and go for the most popular strategies that work.

The attitude the OP describes is exactly why I stopped bothering with Raids. The proffesion/role requirement is so strict and demanding, that there is no more fun in going there.
And of course the twitch link is hilarious. Promising something that would be awesome, delivering the exact opposite.

There is plenty of challenging content in HoT that can go wrong (Tarir south, Garenth) because of poor communication or understading of the mechanic. It does not however completely invalidates or excludes a large amount of players, never able to do the content because of a player generated (and Anet created) skill wall.

Faab.8049:

The attitude the OP describes is exactly why I stopped bothering with Raids. The proffesion/role requirement is so strict and demanding, that there is no more fun in going there.
And of course the twitch link is hilarious. Promising something that would be awesome, delivering the exact opposite.

There is plenty of challenging content in HoT that can go wrong (Tarir south, Garenth) because of poor communication or understading of the mechanic. It does not however completely invalidates or excludes a large amount of players, never able to do the content because of a player generated (and Anet created) skill wall.

I disagree. We killed the first two bosses with different compo (Sabetha we only killed her 2-3 times yets, so we didn’t had a chance to try different comps for now). We have no problem with diversity when it come to composition for raid.

Of course, there is some serious balance that need to be done to make things better, but you can’t base your assumptions from pugs. They used to ask heavy only or a number of AP as requirement in dungeon.

@Thaddeus.
It could have been that I had a few bad experiences too many. I’ll give it a go in a few weeks again when the mechanics are better understood. I agree that Pugs are a bad metric for experiences, and indeed Dungeons had the same thing in the beginning.

Thaddeus.4891:

Faab.8049:

The attitude the OP describes is exactly why I stopped bothering with Raids. The proffesion/role requirement is so strict and demanding, that there is no more fun in going there.
And of course the twitch link is hilarious. Promising something that would be awesome, delivering the exact opposite.

There is plenty of challenging content in HoT that can go wrong (Tarir south, Garenth) because of poor communication or understading of the mechanic. It does not however completely invalidates or excludes a large amount of players, never able to do the content because of a player generated (and Anet created) skill wall.

Of course, there is some serious balance that need to be done to make things better, but you can’t base your assumptions from pugs. They used to ask heavy only or a number of AP as requirement in dungeon.

This is the exact reason I just don’t bother with raids now. Anet went ahead and used a guild that specialises in raid content, they took advice from them and tailored raids to only be truly functional for people who dedicate their time to raids or have an extremely high skill level which is unrealistically high. They should of taken random players from the game and tested raid content with PuG’s as that makes up the majority of content played by players, then they could have found a legitimate challenge level that was reasonable. Extremely large blunder on their part.

I don’t mind a bit of difficulty and complexity, but that’s not what raids offer. It offers an unnecessary skill wall that punishes teams for players who may make small errors or suffer from latency. In essence they also created a pocket of content that encourages finger pointing and toxicity in regards to individual play styles, skill level and game choices. Then this is enforced by immature kids yelling “oh just make your own raid group, or use the meta, etc”, players like this need to grow up and realise they are just as culpable at supporting a toxic environment the OP was talking about.

All of this would be addressed if they added a normal raid and then an elite raid level, you know like x-amount of other MMOs out there.

Sernius Alathar.6538:

This is the exact reason I just don’t bother with raids now. Anet went ahead and used a guild that specialises in raid content, they took advice from them and tailored raids to only be truly functional for people who dedicate their time to raids or have an extremely high skill level which is unrealistically high. They should of taken random players from the game and tested raid content with PuG’s as that makes up the majority of content played by players, then they could have found a legitimate challenge level that was reasonable. Extremely large blunder on their part.

Balancing Raids around clueless pugs would have been the blunder, I cannot believe you would even suggest Raids be balanced for random selection.. Ok Raids aren’t for you but no need to try and destroy them just because you don’t meet the skill or interest requirements.

If you genuinely want to Raid I suggest you try and find (or make with friends) a Raid Guild, get yourself educated on builds and tactics but do not ask Anet to reduce in difficulty a good part of the game.

Also giving you solutions to your prroblem isn’t toxic and frankly you’re acting like a child, “I demand I am able to do all content with my playstyle and if I can’t it needs broken for me.”

Sernius Alathar.6538:

This is the exact reason I just don’t bother with raids now. Anet went ahead and used a guild that specialises in raid content, they took advice from them and tailored raids to only be truly functional for people who dedicate their time to raids or have an extremely high skill level which is unrealistically high. They should of taken random players from the game and tested raid content with PuG’s as that makes up the majority of content played by players, then they could have found a legitimate challenge level that was reasonable. Extremely large blunder on their part.

I don’t mind a bit of difficulty and complexity, but that’s not what raids offer. It offers an unnecessary skill wall that punishes teams for players who may make small errors or suffer from latency. In essence they also created a pocket of content that encourages finger pointing and toxicity in regards to individual play styles, skill level and game choices. Then this is enforced by immature kids yelling “oh just make your own raid group, or use the meta, etc”, players like this need to grow up and realise they are just as culpable at supporting a toxic environment the OP was talking about.

All of this would be addressed if they added a normal raid and then an elite raid level, you know like x-amount of other MMOs out there.

This is wrong – they did things right by balancing against top teams.
The stated goal of raids is that they are designed to be challenging for the top 1-5% of players – that means balancing against organized guild teams consisting of good players with a high skill cap.

If raids were balanced against “randoms” then Raids would be what dungeons were – hard for a bit at the start until everyone figures out the right strats and then easy as heck.

This was already attempted with the game – they naively thought they could balance the end-game content against the average player and that things would work out – they did that with dungeons and it failed miserable – not in the fact that dungeons weren’t done but in the fact that they utterly failed the mark of being difficult group end-game content.

To go back and make the same mistake just because some people can’t put in the time and effort to raid would invalidate the whole premise of raids.
If they wanted to do that they might as well have kept making dungeons.

I get that you dislike people “pointing fingers” but nobody is under any obligation to carry anybody else.
You can play whatever play style you want but you can’t make others play with you if they dislike your play style.
It’s that simple.

Oh – and that thing that the “kids” are saying – that you can make your own group – it’s true – if you want a play how you want casual no pointing fingers raid group – start your own and see how it goes.

Harper.4173:

You can play whatever play style you want but you can’t make others play with you if they dislike your play style.
It’s that simple.

So wait, let me get this straight.
I can play whatever way I want, but can’t force others to play with me if they don’ t like it. Sounds reasonable, if others return that favor to me.
So let’s turn that around for a moment. Why is it OK for others to force me to play a certain way, if they dont like my way?

I’m sure you can understand the contradiction in your statement? Why would anyone else’s opinion or playstyle preference be more right?

Your statement actually underlines the whole problem with Raids from the start. It encourages elite group play, discourages participation, replaces ’ having fun’ with ‘preparing to have fun’ and in general removes the whole ‘fun’ part from the game once you get verbal abuse on it. Jolly…. Rewatch that Twitch link a few posts back, where they promised something that is simply not present.

The problem with designing content that only 1% -5% can do is that the other 95%-99% payed for it.And on this planet that just dont work.People just dont/wont pay for other peoples entertainment.

eldrin.6471:

The problem with designing content that only 1% -5% can do is that the other 95%-99% payed for it.And on this planet that just dont work.People just dont/wont pay for other peoples entertainment.

They payed for the expansion not the raid alone. They also said raids is part of the expansion and very hard.

Oh and if you buy something you don’t like or is too hard for you it’s your fault.

Yes its our fault we trusted anet not to take our money and lock us out of what we paid for,shame on us,wont happen again.

eldrin.6471:

Yes its our fault we trusted anet not to take our money and lock us out of what we paid for,shame on us,wont happen again.

“Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, introduces the ultimate challenge: our first raid, which is made up of three distinct raid wings. Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that’s a challenge unlike anything we’ve previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.”

https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/raids

Well… however I have to agree that this one is quite far fetched:

“Bring the professions you love to play into our raids. They take advantage of our innovative, fluid combat roles, so you can tackle the content with parties of any composition. Bring your friends together and experiment with your builds to take on the bosses and encounters inside the raids.”

You guys are off base here. Sure there are some balancing issues between classes but Anet isn’t the reason you’re not getting into raids. There is nothing in the game’s code that stops any particular class from joining a raid. What’s stopping you is other players. When people decide what works best, it’s hard to convince them otherwise, even when evidence is right in front of their faces.

Remember way back at launch, staff eles were considered too weak to run dungeons with? Hell, remember when people said dungeons were way too hard? I even remember my ignorant moments when I swore Blink was a useless skill because all it did was teleport you a short distance away and I considered full signet build on a mesmer to be awesome. I even ran around in carrion gear while mainly using a greatsword.

I’m embarrassed just thinking about it.

My advice to you is to get your own raid party and I’m not talking about starting your own pug. If you really want to do raids, find 9 other people just like you, get a voip program and become close enough to each of them that you know what kind of toilet tissue they prefer. Seriously. If you want to do well at raiding, you need teamwork that is so ingrained in each of you that you start coordinating without speaking.

Faab.8049:

So wait, let me get this straight.
I can play whatever way I want, but can’t force others to play with me if they don’ t like it. Sounds reasonable, if others return that favor to me.
So let’s turn that around for a moment. Why is it OK for others to force me to play a certain way, if they dont like my way?

I’m sure you can understand the contradiction in your statement? Why would anyone else’s opinion or playstyle preference be more right?

Your statement actually underlines the whole problem with Raids from the start. It encourages elite group play, discourages participation, replaces ’ having fun’ with ‘preparing to have fun’ and in general removes the whole ‘fun’ part from the game once you get verbal abuse on it. Jolly…. Rewatch that Twitch link a few posts back, where they promised something that is simply not present.

Wait what? Who forced you to play a style you didn’t want? I’m sure people asked you to change your playstyle and you could simply respond no and move on no?

I raid everyweek. In fact I raid several times a week. Usually it take me 2 hours on monday and everything is finish. Still I keep raiding because I like to raid and help the rest of my group to do the raid each week. So far we still have a ton of fun. True we ask for people to work toward other profession so that they have 2-3 profession ready just in case. That way we always have a decent composition. But we never put pressure on new raiders to do so. We did raid with Thieves, Guardian, Zerker Necros, etc, etc. As long as we have a decent composition, there is always a place for 1-2 less meta build.

The problem with designing content that only 1% -5% can do is that the other 95%-99% payed for it.And on this planet that just dont work.People just dont/wont pay for other peoples entertainment.

And where that 1-5% number come from? So far in my guild of 450 people we have about 25 people that are hardcore in raids, about 40 which are part of one of our 2 regular raiding group and about 60 people we do raid in general. That’s more near 10-15% and this number continue to grow. Each week we make more and more guildmate join our raiding group and we teach them.

It’s also not like raid are the only thing in the expansion that exist. You paid for the expansion and part of that won’t necessarily be for you. If we all started to be like you what would be left in the game. Oh noboby do dungeon so lets get rid of them, too few people do raid so lets get rid of them, same with WvW, same with 80% of the old maps. Won’t be long because you only get PvP and 10 PvE maps left in the game.

eldrin.6471:

The problem with designing content that only 1% -5% can do is that the other 95%-99% payed for it.And on this planet that just dont work.People just dont/wont pay for other peoples entertainment.

People paid for the expansion, of which the Raid is just one fraction. I don’t do WvW, but you don’t hear me complaining that they added new Borderlands maps that are completely useless to me. There is so much content in Heart of Thorns that I am still getting my money’s worth. And we each decide for our own what is worth our money. It is not up to you or anyone else to decide that. And yes, when it comes to MMO’s people do pay for other people’s entertainment. We paid for the core game, we paid for the expansion, and it enables a lot more people to also have fun. If we don’t pay, the game dies and this particular form of entertainment called Guild Wars 2 will be taken from all of us, paying and non-paying players. There is a picture here that’s bigger than all of us, and that is the infinitely varied community of Guild Wars 2. It sounds like you see content you don’t like and consider your money spent is a waste, regardless of content you do like. I see content I do like and consider my money spent well, regardless of content I don’t like. The difference is perception, which directly influences how you experience things.

Faab.8049:

Your statement actually underlines the whole problem with Raids from the start. It encourages elite group play, discourages participation, replaces ’ having fun’ with ‘preparing to have fun’ and in general removes the whole ‘fun’ part from the game once you get verbal abuse on it. Jolly…. Rewatch that Twitch link a few posts back, where they promised something that is simply not present.

Once again, perception. Raids encourage improving your gameplay. It’s not the Raid that discourages participation, it’s the people who take an elitist stance regarding said content. Don’t blame the Raid for the idiot kittens that play it. Verbal abuse is not a result of the Raid, it’s a result of kittenty personalities. You’ll find those same personalities throwing abuse in open world if something doesn’t suit their taste. That doesn’t make the open world elite gameplay, nor does it take the fun out of it if you just put it aside and laugh at their frustration while you’re having fun. Oh, and about that. Fun. It’s a subjective term. Fun is an opinion, not a fact. If Raids aren’t fun to you it’s just not your cup of tea. Just like WvW is not my cup of tea. It says nothing about the content. It only says something about you and me.

Me and my guild (a casual guild with a few (semi-)hardcore players here and there, me being one of those) have been doing the Raid on 1 to 2 nights each week for about a month and a half now, and we managed to defeat the Vale Guardian twice (both times on Sunday, so we haven’t had the time to get the Gorseval fight down yet). We did it with different people at times, and some of those people are at an average skill level. Yet during those weeks we’ve been having fun. There was no raging going on. In fact, we failed a few times because we were having too much fun! :P Whenever we didn’t have enough guild members we invited pugs, who all patiently sat through our failed attempts and helped us where they could, and who received our gratitude for said patience and help. So the problem here is not the Raid, it’s some of the people that do this type of content. They are more competitive, have a thing for status, and for them the game is much more than just a game. They don’t only want to complete the Raid, they want the beauty price for it as well. To me it’s a great chance for truly challenging content and improving my gameplay even more (like dungeons and Fractals have before). It’s all about how you approach said content, your perception of it, and yes, finding the right people. But finding the right people is an issue in all aspects of life. And the right people means the right people for you specifically, or for me, who could very well be the wrong kind of people to someone else (too elitist, too casual, or whatever). I firmly believe that if you do find the right people for you, your perception of the Raid will change as well. It might never completely be your cup of tea, but you might not dislike as much anymore either.

Faab.8049:

Harper.4173:

You can play whatever play style you want but you can’t make others play with you if they dislike your play style.
It’s that simple.

So wait, let me get this straight.
I can play whatever way I want, but can’t force others to play with me if they don’ t like it. Sounds reasonable, if others return that favor to me.
So let’s turn that around for a moment. Why is it OK for others to force me to play a certain way, if they dont like my way?

I’m sure you can understand the contradiction in your statement? Why would anyone else’s opinion or playstyle preference be more right?

Your statement actually underlines the whole problem with Raids from the start. It encourages elite group play, discourages participation, replaces ’ having fun’ with ‘preparing to have fun’ and in general removes the whole ‘fun’ part from the game once you get verbal abuse on it. Jolly…. Rewatch that Twitch link a few posts back, where they promised something that is simply not present.

They aren’t allowed to force you – and nobody is.
The problem is you wanting to go with groups that only want a certain composition that you do not want to play. And you feel “forced” but honestly you’re not.

Nobody is forcing you into meta groups. If you want to run your way – you’re free to make your group or find groups that play your way.

You have no right to try to get people that don’t want to play with you to take you along against their wishes.

It’s their right to advocate how their group works and how they want the game played – and you have the same right provided you make your own groups.
But don’t go off joining groups that don’t want to play your way and insisting they change because you feel they should.

Nobody is forcing you to play with them.
I don’t remember meta zerk elitist raid groups whispering play how I want players out of the blue and spamming them with " YOU’RE GOING TO GO ON THIS RAID WITH US AND YOU MUST HAVE THIS GEAR OR ELSE!!"

There is no contradiction in my statement.

You can’t force others to take you along.
They can’t force you to change your gear.
You can however choose whom you want to play with and they can as well.
If you are not what they want to play with they will simply not play with you – this does not mean they are forcing you to do anything because nowhere is it stipulated that you have to play with that specific group.

A preference is a preference – but don’t mix people of different preferences by force.
You should know better than joining groups that want a specific build/gear combo if you don’t have that.

It’s their choice whom they allow into their group.

If you don’t find groups that will have you – then either:

1.Change and accept that most players want to play a certain way – and that your way of playing is not desirable and thus people don’t want you in their groups.

2.Make your own groups and find like-minded individuals and play with them.

Elite group play and preparing to have fun are fun for some people.
Your fun isn’t the same as my fun.
There’s really no reason for verbal abuse – I don’t understand people that do it.
If I ask for a certain requirement and people don’t meet it I don’t insult them – I just kick them.

One thing that a bunch of people in my guild had to work on was building a second character(if the didn’t already have it) to raid on. For myself, I main Guardian(DH). However in the first wing of the raid it is, frankly, sub par. With the exception of tanking on VG, which other classes can do just as well or better.

So I took all my Zerker ascended gear. Tossed it onto a P/S warrior and am raiding with that. Hopefully in future wings it wont just be a DPS race in every encounter and then the group utility that the Guardian brings will become vitally important.

So ya, it sucks but your Guardian isn’t cutting it for the first raid wing. Is it doable, sure. But if the option is to take a DH for DPS and a Burn Warrior. You are not going to get into the group.

BloodyNine.7504:

One thing that a bunch of people in my guild had to work on was building a second character(if the didn’t already have it) to raid on. For myself, I main Guardian(DH). However in the first wing of the raid it is, frankly, sub par. With the exception of tanking on VG, which other classes can do just as well or better.

So I took all my Zerker ascended gear. Tossed it onto a P/S warrior and am raiding with that. Hopefully in future wings it wont just be a DPS race in every encounter and then the group utility that the Guardian brings will become vitally important.

So ya, it sucks but your Guardian isn’t cutting it for the first raid wing. Is it doable, sure. But if the option is to take a DH for DPS and a Burn Warrior. You are not going to get into the group.

Tbh honest. Guardian is good enough for VG and Sabetha. Not the most optimal, but I have no problem killing either of those two boss with 1-2 Guardian. That said, it would be nice to have future raid where Reflection, Aegis and blind are important.

Thaddeus.4891:

BloodyNine.7504:

One thing that a bunch of people in my guild had to work on was building a second character(if the didn’t already have it) to raid on. For myself, I main Guardian(DH). However in the first wing of the raid it is, frankly, sub par. With the exception of tanking on VG, which other classes can do just as well or better.

So I took all my Zerker ascended gear. Tossed it onto a P/S warrior and am raiding with that. Hopefully in future wings it wont just be a DPS race in every encounter and then the group utility that the Guardian brings will become vitally important.

So ya, it sucks but your Guardian isn’t cutting it for the first raid wing. Is it doable, sure. But if the option is to take a DH for DPS and a Burn Warrior. You are not going to get into the group.

Tbh honest. Guardian is good enough for VG and Sabetha. Not the most optimal, but I have no problem killing either of those two boss with 1-2 Guardian. That said, it would be nice to have future raid where Reflection, Aegis and blind are important.

Good enough, yup. But If you had a guild mate that had a fully ascended DH and Fully Ascended P/S Warrior. And they told you they could bring either, they didn’t care which. You would say bring the P/S Warrior. The bottom line is it is more useful and does more DPS than the other.

I am looking forward to encounters in other wings not being straight DPS races and actually using the utility a Guardian can bring.

BloodyNine.7504:

I am looking forward to encounters in other wings not being straight DPS races and actually using the utility a Guardian can bring.

It will always be a dps race. Whatever they do, we will always want to finish it ASAP. With or without timers. The point here is to push enough mechanics that need support and to work with the strength of more profession. The strength of the guardian is reflection, condi removal, blocks and blind. Non of which are needed in the current raid.

The other thing they could do is to rebalance the current guardian to make him a viable healer option. Something like make AH heal allies too and maybe rebalance the guardian healing power ratio, which a very bad compare to Celestial Avatar or Elemental Bastion.

Thaddeus.4891:

BloodyNine.7504:

I am looking forward to encounters in other wings not being straight DPS races and actually using the utility a Guardian can bring.

It will always be a dps race. Whatever they do, we will always want to finish it ASAP. With or without timers. The point here is to push enough mechanics that need support and to work with the strength of more profession. The strength of the guardian is reflection, condi removal, blocks and blind. Non of which are needed in the current raid.

The other thing they could do is to rebalance the current guardian to make him a viable healer option. Something like make AH heal allies too and maybe rebalance the guardian healing power ratio, which a very bad compare to Celestial Avatar or Elemental Bastion.

I would agree on all points. The exact mechanics are something I have thought of. But one thing I thought might be fun for a raid encounter would be a type of survival encounter. You can’t “beat” the boss. You need to survive for a time. In that way the current Guardian skills very well may be lifesavers.

theres really something wrong with Guardian/Dragon Hunter in PVE. I did hot history with warrior, guardian, reaper and revenant, and Guardian is more squished than warrior, detail that in my warrior i use 0 defensive traits.

Thaddeus.4891:

BloodyNine.7504:

I am looking forward to encounters in other wings not being straight DPS races and actually using the utility a Guardian can bring.

It will always be a dps race. Whatever they do, we will always want to finish it ASAP. With or without timers. The point here is to push enough mechanics that need support and to work with the strength of more profession. The strength of the guardian is reflection, condi removal, blocks and blind. Non of which are needed in the current raid.

The other thing they could do is to rebalance the current guardian to make him a viable healer option. Something like make AH heal allies too and maybe rebalance the guardian healing power ratio, which a very bad compare to Celestial Avatar or Elemental Bastion.

We’ve killed all 3 bosses multiple times with a DH in the group, being good at playing your class and being comfortable is so much more important than playing a high theoretical DPS class (you’ll probably end up doing more DPS playing a DH you’ve played for years than a class you aren’t familiar with because it has higher theoretical DPS).

ugrakarma.9416:

theres really something wrong with Guardian/Dragon Hunter in PVE. I did hot history with warrior, guardian, reaper and revenant, and Guardian is more squished than warrior, detail that in my warrior i use 0 defensive traits.

I think the big problem is that you need to use full zerker to get any kind of decent DPS out of them. So with them being a small health pool class, it is tough. Mine has under 12k hp.

I would say I never had a ton of problems in the HoT zones even in full Zerker gear on my DH. However, the same gear on my warrior(~20k hp). I have an even easier time, with a class that does much higher DPS. For sure a balance change needs to come in here, imo. Will be interesting to see what happens!

@Coulter

I would agree with you. The difference for me is that the same player. With the same skill level on both, say, a DH and P/S Warrior for this example. With the same gear. The Warrior brings more to the table. Because what you need from these encounters is DPS. The vast majority of skills the DH brings are wasted on these encounters.

RAIDS come down to 3 issues (the same 3 issues that plague every other MMO out there)

1. Community
2. personal skill level
3. willing to work with others

I definitely am seeing issue with #1 and #3 with in the raid system right now. While #2 is more of a learning curve most of the time.

IMHO, the raiding community just sucks. The Ego’s are high, the insults fly, and the cost of dealing with that is just not worth it within the Pug scene. Which is why there are Guilds.

But, a lot of Guilds are starting to go way of the Pug community now too. They think ‘Oh we can beat this super hard raid, we are kitten and deserve better players!’.

its an endless cycle that hits every MMO, and IMHO, the current raids are not worth this stress from it. They offer NOTHING that you cannot get from other areas of the game (except ‘legendary’ armor, big Woop!).

Raids were supposed to be a challenge for players that felt the rest of the PVE mode was not enough. But now its turned into this uncontrollable ego power house.

And yes, I bought HoT so I can raid. Yes, Anet said they would be challenging. But the current form of raids are beyond anything that was promised and its tearing the community apart.

Something is going to have to change.

sirsquishy.8531:

Raids were supposed to be a challenge for players that felt the rest of the PVE mode was not enough. But now its turned into this uncontrollable ego power house.

And yes, I bought HoT so I can raid. Yes, Anet said they would be challenging. But the current form of raids are beyond anything that was promised and its tearing the community apart.

Something is going to have to change.

Disagree completely. I just don’t feel that stress, ego power house or tearing of the community. I think that raid are their core are pretty good right now. But there is some stuff that could help a lot on the periphery.

1) A raid section in the LFG, that work with the Squad system.

2) A raid lobby so that people can discuss and find squamates while building their squad. Ideally with a guild bank and vendor like with PvP lobby.

3) More ways to get ascended gear. Not easier ways, just different ways. Right now you better like pole dancing in Fractal or do some serious crafting if you want some ascended gear.

4) Limit the difference in price for some specific gear like Zealot or Viper which are very higher in price then zerker for exemple.

5) Balance patch to make more build good. Like more type of healer, and condi build. each profession should have at last 2 type of build that work well in raid.

That would help a lot of people to get their gear, and bring a lot of quality of life to pugging raid.

sirsquishy.8531:

RAIDS come down to 3 issues (the same 3 issues that plague every other MMO out there)

1. Community
2. personal skill level
3. willing to work with others

I definitely am seeing issue with #1 and #3 with in the raid system right now. While #2 is more of a learning curve most of the time.

IMHO, the raiding community just sucks. The Ego’s are high, the insults fly, and the cost of dealing with that is just not worth it within the Pug scene. Which is why there are Guilds.

But, a lot of Guilds are starting to go way of the Pug community now too. They think ‘Oh we can beat this super hard raid, we are kitten and deserve better players!’.

its an endless cycle that hits every MMO, and IMHO, the current raids are not worth this stress from it. They offer NOTHING that you cannot get from other areas of the game (except ‘legendary’ armor, big Woop!).

Raids were supposed to be a challenge for players that felt the rest of the PVE mode was not enough. But now its turned into this uncontrollable ego power house.

And yes, I bought HoT so I can raid. Yes, Anet said they would be challenging. But the current form of raids are beyond anything that was promised and its tearing the community apart.

Something is going to have to change.

Overreact much?

I myself am part of a guild that has set up several teams to complete content. Many of our better players who are on team one, spend extra nights a week helping players from Team 2 and 3 through the Raid content because those players are newer or need more practice with the content. There is a limit as to how much they can be rewarded during the week, but they still come back each time to help when ask.

There has been no ego trip and the whole “We are the best you are not so you have to leave/not be part of our raid group.” The only time anyone has ever been removed from a raid team as when they haven’t showed up for Raids and didn’t let anyone know, even then they are given a second chance about it.

I have even pugged raids a few times to see how it goes with a pug group. Becasue we all know PuGs can be toxic. But you know what, I was surprised that Even alot of the Pug groups I joined were nice and didn’t rage when there were deaths and wipes. We had people calling out things that needed improvement for other players. But I don’t see that as a bad thing. And I don’t see these Ego Powerhouses you speak of.

People need to not have such thin skin. Even before when there were all the complaints about how toxic zerker groups were. I found they were usually the most chill, relaxed and nicest pugs to be with, as long as you met the requirement they were asking for. You can’t blame people for being jerks or hostile if you are in yourself doing the same by not reading or following what is ask.

How long do you think a professional football team is going to put up with one player doing his own thing when the coach calls out a play? Instanced content easy -mode: Dungeons or the semi-harder mode: Raids is a team effort, you have to be a team player and part of the community if you expect anyone to accept you.

If I can join a random group of players and beat all three bosses, some of which without any of the group dying I don’t see where Raids are all that difficult that they are excluding players.

1. Community: There are bad members of the community. There are good members, there are scrubs there are pugs there are those special snowflakes who refuse to adapt. I know, I have people who fall into all those groups on my friends list.

2. Personal Skill level: It’s high time that Anet did something to encourage people to get better at this game. It was one of the easiest games I have ever played. People could litterly know next to nothing about the game, and still get carried through all the while making things harder on the rest of their group. I am sure all the comments from the community and other sources on the web about how GW2 was a kiddy game kinda hurt a bit. So if people want to raid, they have to decide to improve.

3. willing to work with others: Many of us are already willing to work with others. It’s a two way street. If the person I am taking into the Raid isn’t willing to change skills or customize their build for the encounter, then I don’t want them in my group. If that makes me an Ego Powerhouse, so be it.

Talyn.3295:

Overreact much?

I myself am part of a guild that has set up several teams to complete content. Many of our better players who are on team one, spend extra nights a week helping players from Team 2 and 3 through the Raid content because those players are newer or need more practice with the content. There is a limit as to how much they can be rewarded during the week, but they still come back each time to help when ask.

There has been no ego trip and the whole “We are the best you are not so you have to leave/not be part of our raid group.” The only time anyone has ever been removed from a raid team as when they haven’t showed up for Raids and didn’t let anyone know, even then they are given a second chance about it.

I have even pugged raids a few times to see how it goes with a pug group. Becasue we all know PuGs can be toxic. But you know what, I was surprised that Even alot of the Pug groups I joined were nice and didn’t rage when there were deaths and wipes. We had people calling out things that needed improvement for other players. But I don’t see that as a bad thing. And I don’t see these Ego Powerhouses you speak of.

People need to not have such thin skin. Even before when there were all the complaints about how toxic zerker groups were. I found they were usually the most chill, relaxed and nicest pugs to be with, as long as you met the requirement they were asking for. You can’t blame people for being jerks or hostile if you are in yourself doing the same by not reading or following what is ask.

How long do you think a professional football team is going to put up with one player doing his own thing when the coach calls out a play? Instanced content easy -mode: Dungeons or the semi-harder mode: Raids is a team effort, you have to be a team player and part of the community if you expect anyone to accept you.

If I can join a random group of players and beat all three bosses, some of which without any of the group dying I don’t see where Raids are all that difficult that they are excluding players.

1. Community: There are bad members of the community. There are good members, there are scrubs there are pugs there are those special snowflakes who refuse to adapt. I know, I have people who fall into all those groups on my friends list.

2. Personal Skill level: It’s high time that Anet did something to encourage people to get better at this game. It was one of the easiest games I have ever played. People could litterly know next to nothing about the game, and still get carried through all the while making things harder on the rest of their group. I am sure all the comments from the community and other sources on the web about how GW2 was a kiddy game kinda hurt a bit. So if people want to raid, they have to decide to improve.

3. willing to work with others: Many of us are already willing to work with others. It’s a two way street. If the person I am taking into the Raid isn’t willing to change skills or customize their build for the encounter, then I don’t want them in my group. If that makes me an Ego Powerhouse, so be it.

My experience has been much like yours. I haven’t seen any of the toxic attitudes people say are so prevalent.

Raids are not that awesome for me because of these reasons:

-People want you to grind ascended stuff which is really expensive now (over 1000g for light armors, I mean is this for real?)
-People want you to level up several classes you may not enjoy (I hate engi and mes, I play guard but it’s not what people want and how the raid is designed for us) and don’t have time for…
-People want you to have experience, but how do I even get that if I can’t join or form any group?
-Did I mention an amount of toxic players from dungeons are raiders?

I’m not touching that (unless I find a guild) until the balance patch, OP should do the same.