Guild Wars 2

If I’m reading the changes correctly, existing level 80s that have everything unlocked but don’t have a lot of map completion/skill challenges done will have to work to re-unlock all of that. Is this correct, or am I misreading something?

Hero Points will be limited, and they’ll be earned strictly through what are currently called skill challenges (these will become known as hero challenges) and leveling up. A level 80 character that’s done none of the hero challenges should be able to unlock more than enough skills, specializations, and traits to make several unique full builds. A single character who’s done a fair amount of the hero challenges should be able to unlock all of the core specializations, skills, and traits.

Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge.

I can understand enforcing this on new characters, but are they actually going to take away what our existing characters have already had for ages?

Crystal ball says “Dang unlikely.”

We saw grandfathering of all unlocked abilities to characters who were made before the changes last time they re-wrote the trait system from the ground up. Likely the same courtesy will be extended again.

It’s not like this is the first time this has happened in GW2.

Your existing lvl 80s with full map completion will have more than enough HPs to unlock everything.

Nike.2631:

Crystal ball says “Dang unlikely.”

We saw grandfathering of all unlocked abilities to characters who were made before the changes last time they re-wrote the trait system from the ground up. Likely the same courtesy will be extended again.

It’s not like this is the first time this has happened in GW2.

This is what I’m hoping for. It seems like the logical thing for them to do, it’s just that the wording there points in the other direction and leaves that question. If I recall, they did clarify the grandfathering along with the announcement of the previous changes.

Good chance that not clarifying is just an oversight, but I hope they make the clarification sometime soon.

lordkrall.7241

Your existing lvl 80s with full map completion will have more than enough HPs to unlock everything.

The characters I’m concerned about are the ones that don’t have map completion, but do already have everything unlocked. Those unlocks were still earned, and it would be pretty crappy if they did take them away.

mrstealth.6701:

The characters I’m concerned about are the ones that don’t have map completion, but do already have everything unlocked. Those unlocks were still earned, and it would be pretty crappy if they did take them away.

You will have 400 HPs at lvl 80. You will need 465 HPs to unlock everything currently available (except for those things that are removed). That means that if you have completed 65 skill challenges (which is rather few) you will have enough HPs to unlock everything you currently have.

lordkrall.7241:

You will have 400 HPs at lvl 80. You will need 465 HPs to unlock everything currently available (except for those things that are removed). That means that if you have completed 65 skill challenges (which is rather few) you will have enough HPs to unlock everything you currently have.

This still leaves the fact that earned unlocks (gold, time, etc) would be thrown away if they don’t grandfather in existing chars.

Myself, and many others, have leveled characters entirely in wvw, where there are very few skill challenges. These unlocks were still earned, just through other means.

Aye, have one of those as well.
The problem however would be that by grandfathering everything in, people with older characters will have a clear advantage over those that don’t (such as an overflow of HPs and such). It is also an issue with certain traits being changed and/or combined and so on.

They would only have to grandfather in the actual unlocks, not giving extra HP. Just give full unlock of core specs/skills, and leave the character with however many HP they would have if they had spent them on unlocks. That being 0 HP for characters that had little map completion.

For example, if I am level 80 with 100 skill challenges done, the update could leave me with full core unlocks and 35 HP to spend on future skills/specs.

But it would still leave them with an overflow of HPs, seeing as you would need much less HP to unlock the traits/skills compared to a new character. You would still be able to get just as many HPs from skill challenges, but you would need less of them, since everything would basically only be unlocked.

And that still doesn’t address the fact with combined and/or removed traits.

lordkrall.7241:

But it would still leave them with an overflow of HPs, seeing as you would need much less HP to unlock the traits/skills compared to a new character. You would still be able to get just as many HPs from skill challenges, but you would need less of them, since everything would basically only be unlocked.

And that still doesn’t address the fact with combined and/or removed traits.

It’s the same thing that happened with the previous trait overhaul. Existing characters, even if they had few skillpoints/completion, where grandfathered into having full unlocks.

It’s a trade off of giving some younger characters a partial free ride to prevent others from being stripped of unlocks they have already earned.

And I don’t really see combined traits as a major issue. If anything, you’d have put in more effort to unlock those 2-3 traits that are now a single trait. You aren’t really losing anything outside of the few traits that are totally removed. It seems pretty minor in comparison to losing a significant amount of unlocks with the HP system.

The problem is with the finite (465) number of points each char can get to unlock skills and traits. If they give a char extra unlocked traits and then the char goes out and does all the Hero Challenges it doesn’t have, what happens to the finite number of points? That char will have extra. Maybe it won’t be a big deal, and maybe it will cause that char to be bugged so, idk, maybe the traits are stuck and don’t unlock properly. Or that char is bugged in some other manner. If they don’t have an easy way to remove excess hero points, that char might not be fixable or it may take a long time for them to fix the bug.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

The problem is with the finite (465) number of points each char can get to unlock skills and traits. If they give a char extra unlocked traits and then the char goes out and does all the Hero Challenges it doesn’t have, what happens to the finite number of points? That char will have extra. Maybe it won’t be a big deal, and maybe it will cause that char to be bugged so, idk, maybe the traits are stuck and don’t unlock properly. Or that char is bugged in some other manner. If they don’t have an easy way to remove excess hero points, that char might not be fixable or it may take a long time for them to fix the bug.

There are far more than 465 hero points available. That is just the amount it takes to unlock core skills and specs.

Getting to level 80 gets you 400, and there are currently 189 pve skill challenges(not including wvw, and Dry Top/Silverwastes). That’s over 600 possible Hero Points in the existing content.

Everyone is capable of obtaining a significant excess of hero points.

Hmm..maybe that is why Skill Challenges have been removed from the maps. Perhaps, there will no longer be an over-abundance of what will become Hero Challenges.

Time will tell. /shrug

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Hmm..maybe that is why Skill Challenges have been removed from the maps. Perhaps, there will no longer be an over-abundance of what will become Hero Challenges.

Time will tell. /shrug

Have they said anything about removing some of them? Skill challenges are going to become Hero Challenges.

Hero Points will be limited, and they’ll be earned strictly through what are currently called skill challenges (these will become known as hero challenges) and leveling up.

Maybe the number 465 isn’t right, it’s a number that I’ve seen several times, but that the number of hero points being finite is correct and so is the possible problems with a char getting more than the game allows.

It’s one of the reasons skill point scrolls are being removed, so we can’t get any extra skill points/hero points.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Maybe the number 465 isn’t right, it’s a number that I’ve seen several times, but that the number of hero points being finite is correct and so is the possible problems with a char getting more than the game allows.

465 may change, but it is the number that they said you would need to unlock CORE skills and traits

you will likely need the rest to unlock elite specializations.

So no matter what, you are going to be heading out there and hunting hero points.

As for the rest of the people
the only way they could grandfather charachters in is by changing the system itself, or automatically completing skill points for existing charachters.

but this gets messy.
what about the people who havent unlocked all their skills?
what about the people who have only unlocked 15 traits?

• they cant just give you unlocks because hero points is finite, and will be your resource for unlocking elite specializations/skills. You cant have more than you are supposed to, and you cant have unlocks without having spent the right amount of Hero points. It would basically give old charachters more hero points than they should ever be able to get

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Maybe the number 465 isn’t right, it’s a number that I’ve seen several times, but that the number of hero points being finite is correct and so is the possible problems with a char getting more than the game allows.

It’s one of the reasons skill point scrolls are being removed, so we can’t get any extra skill points/hero points.

It’s more accurate to say that skillpoints are being separated. Those earned by leveling and skill challenges become hero challenge points. Those earned via scrolls and “leveling” beyond 80 are being converted into a different currency to buy items that currently cost skillpoints.

465 is just the amount it takes to get all core unlocks. The information provided suggests that there will be more available hero points than needed to fully unlock everything.

A single character who’s done a fair amount of the hero challenges should be able to unlock all of the core specializations, skills, and traits.

If a “fair amount” gets you all core unlocks, and HoT 1 includes specialization and a small selection of skills, I don’t expect a full unlock to be much higher.

Yes, but it still leaves the point that the hero points are limited in number and giving a character free unlocks means that the char can get more hero points than the game will allow and possibly end of bugged because of it.

I don’t see it causing a bug. Right now we can have a massive amount of skillpoints beyond the number of skill challenges available.

It would only be a problem if the number of hero points were married to the number of completed hero challanges. And that is not the case, because leveling also contributes to hero points. The number of possible hero points already exceeds the number of hero challenges.

65 skill challenges is not a trivial number.

That’s 1/3rd of all skill challenges currently in game. That means running across 1/3 of the zones with a fully unlocked WvW character to get back to where they are now.

mrstealth.6701:

I don’t see it causing a bug. Right now we can have a massive amount of skillpoints beyond the number of skill challenges available.

It would only be a problem if the number of hero points were married to the number of completed hero challanges. And that is not the case, because leveling also contributes to hero points. The number of possible hero points already exceeds the number of hero challenges.

Right now the number of skill points to can get is unlimited. After the update for this, it will be limited to a finite number. From what they said, you will get them by leveling up to 80 then get the remainder allowed by doing the set, available number of Hero Challenges. You will not get more by leveling after level 80 because your XP bar will change over to a Mastery bar, which doesn’t use experience to progress.

Gibson.4036:

65 skill challenges is not a trivial number.

That’s 1/3rd of all skill challenges currently in game. That means running across 1/3 of the zones with a fully unlocked WvW character to get back to where they are now.

if you are opposed to having to do skill challenges per charachter, you should try to get the system changed, because in the long term, you will end up doing waaay more than 65 points per charachter

traits is 60ish point
5 skills is like 25-30 points
then spec unlock/or mechanic unlock.

so probably 90-120 per elite spec
and they currently plan to add more later on. (though they may not do it any time soon)

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Right now the number of skill points to can get is unlimited. After the update for this, it will be limited to a finite number. After you get that number you are not going to get more by leveling. From what they said, you will get them by leveling up to 80 then get the remainder allowed by doing the set, available number of Hero Challenges. Exceeding this finite number can conceivably cause a bug.

That would be a pretty big oversight, and even if it were true we’re talking about something that would likely just be a display bug.

If they can count skillpoints separately based on how they were obtained, doing the same thing with hero points should be trivial. Hero challenges are just renamed skillpoints, after all.

It’s also logical to assume the number of hero challenges available is designed to increase over time. As more areas with new challenges are added, and the number of challenges required rises with new specializations, traits, and skills. Having it hard locked at a certain number, that will somehow break the game if exceeded, just doesn’t make any sense.

Characters will not be gaining experience after level 80. The Mastery bar will be progressing by a mechanism similar to experience (and not named) but is something that doesn’t get hero points.

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=35818&storypage=2
“The masteries seen in the demo are just the tip of what masteries will be available at launch, and the team will have more surprises for players. We wanted to know if all those consumables, like Tomes of Knowledge and Writs of Experience, would help players unlock all of these masteries faster. The short answer is that they won’t. The experience bar is going away and is being replaced by the mastery training bar. This training bar is in no way tied to experience, but fills up by going out and doing stuff in the world. So any item that gives you experience won’t help you train masteries.”

phys.7689:

if you are opposed to having to do skill challenges per charachter, you should try to get the system changed, because in the long term, you will end up doing waaay more than 65 points per charachter

traits is 60ish point
5 skills is like 25-30 points
then spec unlock/or mechanic unlock.

so probably 90-120 per elite spec
and they currently plan to add more later on. (though they may not do it any time soon)

Yes. That will be very difficult for WvWers in the future. I can accept, though, that new things may have new requirements that need to be met.

My biggest frustration is having to go back and get characters that already have unlocks back to where they are now. That’s unacceptable game design.

As mentioned in another thread, I have 14 level 80s. 2 have world completion. Of the remaining 12, 11 were level 80 before the trait system redesign, and were grandfathered in; several of these are missing some XIII grandmaster traits. The other, my NPE ele, has only a handful or two of traits unlocked.

So, what will I have to do to maintain the status quo?

I’m aware of how masteries work. And it really doesn’t have anything do with hero challenges. It’s a completely separate mechanic. It is somewhat replacing earning a skillpoint beyond 80, but the mechanic of it is entirely different. It’s not even based off of experience, as skillpoints currently are.

[edit]
In fact, it seems likely that the earning of skillpoints will be replaced in another way. Being rewarded Mystic Forge crafting mats upon leveling beyond 80.

Old skill points in excess of those earned by leveling and skill challenges will be converted into crafting materials for the Mystic Forge. Items and activities that were previously repeatable sources of skill points will now also provide that same crafting material.

Our main " activity that is a repeatable source of skill points" is leveling beyond 80.

I think it’s best to assume that when the new system hits, NOBODY will be grandfathered in. Want to make sure you’re not short some traits and skills when it hits? Go out and grab some easy skill points/challenges. Get some maps, then sweep through the lower level zones and grab all the skill points.

If it turns out that they find a way to grandfather old characters in after all, then it’s still not time wasted if you get HoT. Instead, you’ll be that much further along on unlocking the Elite Specialization.

Not grandfathering is going to be a very effective way of making a lot of people mad.

“Hey, we know you spent a lot of time and gold earning all of those unlocks…but we’ve decided that all of your effort doesn’t matter anymore. You can only have your traits and skills back if you earn them all over again. Oh, and you have to earn them the way we want you to.”

I seriously hope that is not the message we’re going to get.

What I thought I saw in the vid was Josh unlocking one of the five trait trees for 80 hero pts; then 35 more for some of the skills; the skills like auto attack/button 1 on the bottom bar. So the math for me is different; 400 for the trait lines and more for the various weapons skills we normally use. I also hope they do not take away what is already unlocked. If they grandfather us in then we won’t need the other, on map skill/hero challenges, but the way they are talking leaves room for doubt.

If my current level 80s that don’t have full map completion but have everything unlocked get abilities, traits or anything else locked because of these changes, I will likely rage quit for good. There is nothing enjoyable in them removing things I already spent time unlocking.

If we really do have to go back and re-unlock things, they might as well go back on their word and raise the level cap. It’s effectively the same thing. Resetting our characters back to being less than max, and requiring us to bring them back up again.