Guild Wars 2

a kind of tongue in cheek title woudl be kinda neat. “elitist”

Tollz.4152:

Labjax.2465:

I’m not saying your irritation isn’t legitimate, but you don’t need a title to brag. You did it before most people and not only is that something no one can take away from you, but it’s something you can brag about.

Let me pose an analogous scenario to you that happens in raiding games all the time: Top guilds compete to see who can kill the bosses first. Pretty soon, the top guilds get the bosses killed and get them on farm status (meaning they can kill the bosses without fail each weekly reset).

Fast-forward to a few months later. The top guilds have been farming the bosses for a long time and a few 2nd tier guilds are getting some kills, but most raiding guilds are struggling a lot with progressing. They are getting killed over and over by tight requirements and unforgiving mechanics. So to ensure that the bulk of the raiding population (the lower tier guilds) don’t give up on the game, they nerf some of the harder bosses. Inevitably some of the people in top guilds complain about this, but there is no special title for it.

The people in the top guilds already got their reward, in the form of 1) getting all the rewards before everybody else and 2) being able to brag about their accomplishments. In fact, they can now say “I killed X boss pre-nerf.”

This is usually how it works in MMOs, that for the first ones there, the thing that separates them from the people who came later is the feeling of knowing that they got to the finish line first. Like a race.

If you got this stuff before the nerfs, you already placed first. You won the race. Anet could give you a badge to say that you won the race, but I have to ask: Are you sure the medal is what you did it for, or was it for the feeling of beating the competition?

I get what you’re saying and I agree for the most part. In regards to you analogy to say WoW, Blizzard actually make certain achievements and titles unavailable after they nerf them to acknowledge those who were able to do it before the nerfs. I’m just saying Anet are listening to and rewarding a lot of crying about the amount of effort.

I did enjoy the time I put in, but now the next bloke gets to come along, put in half the time and get the same reward….. I hope you can see how that is rough.

Please don’t mind if I add a point. Even for the WoW achievement, afaik it’s gone when next raid is (going to) opened so people won’t be using the new equipment to finish the old raid.

Are we getting new ways for HPs, or did they just tune down the challenging part of the existingHPs? Nope. Seems not the same scenario for me than.

In addition, Blizzard gives you several weeks to challenge the boss before achievement is gone, and they did announce before that. Did Anet do so? Nope. Five days and it changed in a sudden. That’s what makes me feel bad, not the aspect of game play but PR.

*edit for spelling

what the hell is rorting?

i guarantee 90% of everyone doesnt have poison vine mastery yet so feel free leading people into the vine HPs in verdant brink… ;p

Wow, are you like… forced to play the game? I don’t understand all this QQ about these hero points. Both sides overreacting. First the impatient people that acted like their characters are utterly useless until they get 100% of their elite spec, and now on the other side all the people QQing about how their time was wasted, which is even bigger bullkitten.

Wasted time? Why do you guys play the game if you feel like something as simple as lowered spec unlock threshold made your time wasted?! Really for the life of me, I can’t wrap my mind around that kind of logic. What exactly is the attitude that brings you to play the game?

Myself, I came home from work, I opened up a beer and went playing HoT, not giving much of a kitten about anything else aside just… playing the game! Basically I didn’t even know what my progress to unlocked spec was until yesterday evening when I opened up the hero panel and saw that I have 280 hero points to spend on my spec. I also have to note here, that I’m not even a player that would do PvE unless I lack money or there is new content. I spend all my time in WvW (guild raids 5 days a week) and sPvP (the rest of my free time).

So just a simple suggestion for everyone. Do try to enjoy the game you’re playing, instead of trying to rush everything for whatever unimportant reason and also, they say, patience is a virtue.

Tollz.4152:

I get what you’re saying and I agree for the most part. In regards to you analogy to say WoW, Blizzard actually make certain achievements and titles unavailable after they nerf them to acknowledge those who were able to do it before the nerfs. I’m just saying Anet are listening to and rewarding a lot of crying about the amount of effort.

I did enjoy the time I put in and it was my reward, but now the next bloke gets to come along, put in half the time and get the same reward….. I hope you can see how that is rough.

Intellectually, I definitely get why it is rough. Emotionally, I’m not sure I can relate on a personal level. I’m thinking back to when I was in similar situations, but I played a raiding game for 2-3 years with the philosophy of passing on gear for others half the time because I was part of the leadership and wanted to help prove the point that our “loot council” type setup was not biased (it didn’t really need proving, but some people get paranoid). I enjoyed getting showy items and titles, but I was never playing for that back then, so I may not be familiar with living such a mindset. I encountered it all the time in other people, but I was always pushing myself in the direction of being satisfied with other things.

For example, the quiet satisfaction of wearing an outfit that I spent two hours putting together. That kind of thing gave me an outlet of accomplishment in a game that no one could nerf, or take away from me.

Narrrz.7532:

Seera.5916:

And don’t kid yourself, players want to play with fully unlocked elite specs when they say they want to play with elite specs before anyone claims that that was possible before the change.

I contest that the people who actually wanted to play with their elite specs went out and unlocked or began unlocking hero points for them as soon as they knew they wanted it. Even before i knew it was going to cost 400 hero points i started (and finished) a fourth world completion on my necromancer so that i’d have access to it as soon as physically feasible.
People who actually want things go out and do what it takes to get them. people who merely feel they should have something, or perhaps feel they are entitled to that thing, they are the people who have been complaining.

And some of them went: “Screw this. This is too much. I’m out of here.”

The major problem that caused this was a communications failure on ANet’s end.

They hyped up the elite specs. They don’t give any details on the numbers it will take to get the spec fully unlocked. Or even how it will unlock (order wise and if skills will be on the same track as traits or not, etc). Then, in the betas we’re given the elite specs fully unlocked with the hero challenges not even present in the world. There is mention of work to get the elite specs. But I have to work at getting dungeon armor. But it doesn’t take that long to get them, just 2 days of running each path once. But I still have to work towards it. So, some players figured it wouldn’t take that long for the average player to unlock the elites. And elite skills aren’t that hard to earn and that’s the only elite thing we have related to builds. Certainly not tedious for alts.

So then fast forward to 3 days before launch. Colin answers a post in a thread and gives up the total amount needed. Many players go WTF that’s too many. A decent amount go: maybe it’s only 200 for the spec and 200 for the skins and that would be fine, let’s wait until launch to review the system. No dev response at all after the initial post until after launch. Despite players asking for more details.

The game launches and people see the exact numbers and see how challenging the hero challenges are and see how many masteries are blocking them and you can imagine how those who got the impression it wouldn’t be tedious or long to get the elite specs unlocked go wtf.

Their communications policy keeps them from doing the whole precursor scavenger hunt again, but it allows things like this to happen when someone is given permission to release a small bit of information or accidentally says something.

It also meant they can’t say anything beyond, “we’re looking into it” until they’re just about ready to release the fix/change/new thing.

MrH.2591:

You simply need to understand you’re the minority, most people can’t play all day, every day. Content will never be balanced around you.

Content should be balanced around those who don’t play the game. If it takes more than an hour to do than it’s too hardcore for the guild wars crowd….

I don’t understand what “rorted” means. Also, giving you a title for your two-day achievement would be a huge slap in the face to players who spent a year or more getting to level 100 in fractals and then got reset down to level 30 when ANET first had the idea of implementing a leaderboard (which is still not in the game). Those people really got swept under the rug. I don’t think you’re going to get acknowledgement (nor do I think you should) because you’re feeling rorted.

Heh. Stuff happens.

Coming as someone who spent many, many hours getting guard stacks in WvW when Wxp boosts weren’t as common and many more getting supply capacity only to have the first two removed and the third devalued because it’s easier to get, I would ultimately admit it’s better for the good of the game because it improves accessibility and no way devalues my own experiences to get there.

But we can take turns playing the victim I guess.

I had nearly unlocked my chronomancer before the change hit. Another day would have done it.

But I am really happy about this change. I did have fun doing it the first time around. The thought of unlocking alts though was really off putting to me. There are characters I would have left to rot with the old requirement – for instance I wanted to unlock a Druid at some point since I’ve always played a healer in other mmos, but don’t overly enjoy the ranger class, and I’m not the only one. Next time you’re doing difficult content in the jungle you might get a few heals thrown your way. Druid is not a spec I’ve seen much of so far.

With the change, every new unlock will bring a fresh experience of the new content. I can take my fiancé without world completion through the content. I can get my mother in law to give the game a fair shake, and there are some shinies in the gem store I was holding off on buying I’m getting this weekend because I can now see myself unlocking all the mastery lines and eventually going back to old content with fresh skills.

I think it’s brilliant.

Narrrz.7532:

Imagine that all the content of this expansion were reduced to be obtainable immediately, or after the most minimal participation. You do a single hero challenge and can fully unlock your elite spec. Unlock your elite spec and immediately have the Ascended item associated with it. Open a single crate of airship salvage and you can afford to buy everything obtainable with the currency.
Do you feel any incentive to do anything anymore? I sure wouldn’t.

Ah, so you wouldn’t like to play through the storyline to see what happens next?

You wouldn’t like to explore the maps and see what’s actually in them?

You wouldn’t like to see the game’s art or hear the new soundtracks?

You would take that “more content now than there has ever been before” and completely ignore it just because it wouldn’t give you any new reward?

So yep, by your own words, you are not playing the game – you are grinding the game just to get rewards. It’s easy to understand that you would feel cheated if those rewards were made easier to acquire, but I’m sorry to say – it’s not that ArenaNet has wasted your time, you are wasting your time doing something you don’t enjoy for meaningless rewards.

I have a legendary sword. Do you know what I would feel if everyone woke up with the same sword in their inventory, without doing any “work” for it?

Nothing.

I don’t have any delusion about an item giving me “prestige” or “exclusivity” in a game. And just because I did something that took a long time, it doesn’t mean everyone has to also wait a long time. I got the sword because I like the skin – and the skin won’t change, no matter if there are 1, 100 or 1.000.000 of that sword around, or it other people got it after 1 or after 10.000 days.

That’s a healthy response – I wasn’t wasting my time through an experience I didn’t enjoy so I would regret if the reward in the end had changed. Can you honestly say the same?

Test.8734:

Narrrz.7532:

Imagine that all the content of this expansion were reduced to be obtainable immediately, or after the most minimal participation. You do a single hero challenge and can fully unlock your elite spec. Unlock your elite spec and immediately have the Ascended item associated with it. Open a single crate of airship salvage and you can afford to buy everything obtainable with the currency.
Do you feel any incentive to do anything anymore? I sure wouldn’t.

Ah, so you wouldn’t like to play through the storyline to see what happens next?

You wouldn’t like to explore the maps and see what’s actually in them?

You wouldn’t like to see the game’s art or hear the new soundtracks?

You would take that “more content now than there has ever been before” and completely ignore it just because it wouldn’t give you any new reward?

After all my talk about repeatable content, this is what you take away? talk about soundbite…

I absolutely would play through – once. Every living story mission (barring perhaps that stupid centaur one-) was immensely fun simply for the sake of it, but the rewards are what has led me to take every alt through it and i fully intend to put my rev through her paces too once she finishes up the personal story.

Test.8734:

So yep, by your own words, you are not playing the game – you are grinding the game just to get rewards. It’s easy to understand that you would feel cheated if those rewards were made easier to acquire, but I’m sorry to say – it’s not that ArenaNet has wasted your time, you are wasting your time doing something you don’t enjoy for meaningless rewards.

people throw that word around a lot on the forums – grinding. I’m not sure if you’ve ever used a grinder but the reason for the association is that its a very monotonous activity characterised by doing a single action, sometimes for an extended period of time.

The only thing i can think of in the game that could draw a literal comparison is afking on the easier world bosses, where you legitimately only do a single thing for an extended amount of time.

If, on the other hand, you consider something like the silverwastes… however monotonous you might have found it to do the meta event there, there’s really no sense in which you can call it grinding without utterly mutilating the proper definition of the word.

I don’t consider the gameplay of the new zones the least bit ‘grindy’ even insofar as the term could be applied in the sense that people usually use it. As to meaningless rewards… Well, they weren’t, until this change. I still enjoy the activities (i’ve helped several guildies do the hero points or other elements of map completion, and begun bringing my other characters into HoT zones) – i only take issue with the rewards being useless.
An activity which rewards you with something you have no use for is less rewarding than one which offers no reward save the experience of doing it.

Test.8734:

I have a legendary sword. Do you know what I would feel if everyone woke up with the same sword in their inventory, without doing any “work” for it?

Nothing.

I don’t have any delusion about an item giving me “prestige” or “exclusivity” in a game. And just because I did something that took a long time, it doesn’t mean everyone has to also wait a long time. I got the sword because I like the skin – and the skin won’t change, no matter if there are 1, 100 or 1.000.000 of that sword around, or it other people got it after 1 or after 10.000 days.

That’s a healthy response – I wasn’t wasting my time through an experience I didn’t enjoy so I would regret if the reward in the end had changed. Can you honestly say the same?

Actually… yes! yes i can. I made my own Sunrise a good couple of years down the track – i suppose if i was looking for prestige i would have gone for Twilight, since it seems generally regarded as the ‘better’ legendary, and Dusk was the precursor i had drop, but i much prefer the skybox of Sunrise.
Since i waited so long to make it, it wasn’t exactly an uncommon sight around the place – honestly, my ascended rifle is probably a much rarer skin, and i’ve even transmogged that away to something i felt suited my character’s theme better.

If you felt like you had accomplished something then how is it any different now? Just because anet balanced something to fit more players needs doesn’t mean your “feeling of accomplishment” need be diminished.

Is your complaint that, or is it that you’re kinda kittened now that it’s easier and you did it the hard way?

Great thread OP.

Even though I’m stoked with the recent change to the HP requirement it’s so nice to actually get a well worded take on your experience as opposed to “casual whiners ruined the whole game!!!” or equivalent rant. I can sympathize a lot more with how some, certainly not all, players like you feel now.

Much respect.

Now it’s my understanding that all these HP’s will be needed for the new legendary gear, happy to be corrected, and if so does this not have relevance or bearing to an eventual and rewarding long time goal you can display for your efforts that shows the effort you put in? I mean most casuals, starting to hate that generalization but I digress, will probably just do what they can to unlock the spec and then just go back to what they enjoy while you will have partial access to some pretty awesome rewards.

For my part I don’t think game mechanics like the elite spec and their acquisition should be used as a symbol of status.

Would be interested to garner your thoughts.

Yes.. It would be way better if they nerf it like 2 months after expansion you think?
They did it now, cause they knew not many people achieved it yet. They didn’t wanted to create even bigger rage later.
Yes, it would be nice if they would give people who used 400 points some little bonus, not just refund. I myself used just 300 but I understand people who rushed to get spec 2 days after premier. Maybe if i were still in high school I would do it too…

Anyway as you know from real world I guess.. It’s hard to create situation where wolf is fed and sheep is still alive..

I had to buy 10th character slot right after I bought expansion, so I spend more money than I wanted so.. I’m afraid you won’t get something in return from reaching 400 HP. Good luck tho~

fireflyry.7023:

Great thread OP.

Even though I’m stoked with the recent change to the HP requirement it’s so nice to actually get a well worded take on your experience as opposed to “casual whiners ruined the whole game!!!” or equivalent rant. I can sympathize a lot more with how some, certainly not all, players like you feel now.

Much respect.

Now it’s my understanding that all these HP’s will be needed for the new legendary gear, happy to be corrected, and if so does this not have relevance or bearing to an eventual and rewarding long time goal you can display for your efforts that shows the effort you put in? I mean most casuals, starting to hate that generalization but I digress, will probably just do what they can to unlock the spec and then just go back to what they enjoy while you will have partial access to some pretty awesome rewards.

For my part I don’t think game mechanics like the elite spec and their acquisition should be used as a symbol of status.

Would be interested to garner your thoughts.

I don’t think acquiring an elite spec should be a symbol of status either, but it should require work. Let me put something in perspective.

last night I logged onto my Mesmer alt that just hit 80 before xpac, I had 3 hero points, it took me an hour with the masteries I had unlocked and the knock down to 250HP for me to fully unlock Chronomancer…. wow I felt nothing, it was the same as sitting there crafting to 80 or clicking tomes, there was nothing.

I even popped on my commander tag and helped 2 dozen people also finish their specs. It was silly, the nerf was too hard and I now really can appreciate how much more rewarding the original 400 was.

I will say that it put me back a bit on how I first felt, I now do have a much larger feeling that it was really enjoyable the first time, it definitely feels cheap and silly now, sorry Anet this change was a little to much.

Anyone that originally got 400, well done, no one else will get that feeling Anet have cheapened this soo much.

In regards to the Legendaries requiring HP I had not heard anything, that would be nice I’d be okay with that.

I think everyone has also taken my original post too literally as well, I stated that a title or a skin or something should be given to those who got 400hp when needed, what I meant by this is that I just reckon that Anet has listened to the masses and not really recognised that people did their content, that we liked it, that we spent a lot of time doing it and they don’t care. Their two statements were basically a kick to the crotch pretty much said “you go you” and “you’re a champ” now we’re gonna make it easier HAH!

Malchir.4798:

Tollz.4152:

I understand why the community was crying about the difficulty

The biggest issue for people like me was: I wanted to play the new content, the new story, the new maps. but i wanted to do that with the new possibilities of my class, testing out different builds while progressing. That actually lead to me ignoring most of the new content (events, dialogues with NPCs) and getting the story spoiled by some random NPCs while just searching for Hero Point challenges to finally enjoying the game. In addition, some grinding was required to get enough experience for the masteries i needed to get the Hero Points.

That was dull and boring and not difficult at all. Just time consuming.
Yes, some Hero Point challenges are difficult – but you just have to wait until more players arrived.

Now i can finally explore the new world, the new NPCs, the Lore, look for details and take the time i need without having the feeling that my character is “incomplete” in some way… in other words, i can finally enjoy the game.

Well said this is really the nub of the issue and why anet probably made the change. So how about the elitist whingers actually give anet some credit for being in the best position to kitten an issue and make the correct call.

Narrrz.7532:

people throw that word around a lot on the forums – grinding. I’m not sure if you’ve ever used a grinder but the reason for the association is that its a very monotonous activity characterised by doing a single action, sometimes for an extended period of time.

Thats your definition, others define it more broadly.

morrolan.9608:

Malchir.4798:

Tollz.4152:

I understand why the community was crying about the difficulty

The biggest issue for people like me was: I wanted to play the new content, the new story, the new maps. but i wanted to do that with the new possibilities of my class, testing out different builds while progressing. That actually lead to me ignoring most of the new content (events, dialogues with NPCs) and getting the story spoiled by some random NPCs while just searching for Hero Point challenges to finally enjoying the game. In addition, some grinding was required to get enough experience for the masteries i needed to get the Hero Points.

That was dull and boring and not difficult at all. Just time consuming.
Yes, some Hero Point challenges are difficult – but you just have to wait until more players arrived.

Now i can finally explore the new world, the new NPCs, the Lore, look for details and take the time i need without having the feeling that my character is “incomplete” in some way… in other words, i can finally enjoy the game.

Well said this is really the nub of the issue and why anet probably made the change. So how about the elitist whingers actually give anet some credit for being in the best position to kitten an issue and make the correct call.

Hold on, so you’re position and “whining” about it being hard is the correct stance but our position is elitist and wrong and our “whining” is not allowed. The changed literally came from people like yourself crying about how hard it was to get it, which is fair it was hard… on purpose and you are allowed to be upset with it just like we are allowed to be upset that it changed. This is the most hypocritical statement I have seen on this thread.

Tollz.4152:

morrolan.9608:

Malchir.4798:

Tollz.4152:

I understand why the community was crying about the difficulty

The biggest issue for people like me was: I wanted to play the new content, the new story, the new maps. but i wanted to do that with the new possibilities of my class, testing out different builds while progressing. That actually lead to me ignoring most of the new content (events, dialogues with NPCs) and getting the story spoiled by some random NPCs while just searching for Hero Point challenges to finally enjoying the game. In addition, some grinding was required to get enough experience for the masteries i needed to get the Hero Points.

That was dull and boring and not difficult at all. Just time consuming.
Yes, some Hero Point challenges are difficult – but you just have to wait until more players arrived.

Now i can finally explore the new world, the new NPCs, the Lore, look for details and take the time i need without having the feeling that my character is “incomplete” in some way… in other words, i can finally enjoy the game.

Well said this is really the nub of the issue and why anet probably made the change. So how about the elitist whingers actually give anet some credit for being in the best position to kitten an issue and make the correct call.

Hold on, so you’re position and “whining” about it being hard is the correct stance but our position is elitist and wrong and our “whining” is not allowed. The changed literally came from people like yourself crying about how hard it was to get it, which is fair it was kitten purpose and you are allowed to be upset with it just like we are allowed to be upset that it changed. This is the most hypocritical statement I have seen on this thread.

I didn’t whinge about it at least not in any OTT way. And it wasn’t hard just tedious and was all about preparing to have fun rather than having fun. As for your position being wrong as I said give anet some credit for being in the best position to judge as to whether it was right or wrong. They kept the other progression systems the same so it doesn’t look like some knee jerk reaction.

morrolan.9608:

Narrrz.7532:

people throw that word around a lot on the forums – grinding. I’m not sure if you’ve ever used a grinder but the reason for the association is that its a very monotonous activity characterised by doing a single action, sometimes for an extended period of time.

Thats your definition, others define it more broadly.

I feel like a lot of people equate grinding to ‘putting in any effort at all’

Congratulations for completing the “hardcore” mode that people who haven’t completed it will never get a chance to experience.

You got more content for the “same” amount of money. You should feel grateful.

Ashen.2907:

If the, " two large walls ," had been something particularly challenging rather than just time consuming I might agree with you.

While I don’t agree with the thread itself, this statement caught my attention because it tends to be false in most cases. Alot of people complain about grinding saying that it is not challenging and they rather want challenging content. However, I don’t know if you realize that people complain about ‘’challenging content’’ just as much because it is ’’impossible’’ to complete if you aren’t good enough at the game.

In the GW2 community, statements like ‘’we want challenging content, why don’t you understand Anet?’’ are so hypocritical, because GW2, used to be once upon a time more challenging from dungeons to other open world cotnent, however, due to constant complaints by the community, the game has gotten nerfed multiple times.

It is not that Anet can’t create challenging content, it is that a huge part of the community doesn’t want the game to be challenging. So since the game can’t be challenging for the most part, it has to be grindy. It is one of two more or less, the game is either grindy or hard, if neither of these excist then there won’t be content, and if there is, it will be run through quickly and nothing will be leftover in 2 weeks.

One of the main reasons that MMORPGs have been on the decline the past couple of years is because the community can’t decide what they want. They don’t want games to be hard but they don’t want them grindy either. This has lead to other genres suprassing MMORPGs by a mile, and now a single MOBA have more players than a dozen MMOs collectivly.

nGumball.1283:

It is not that Anet can’t create challenging content, it is that a huge part of the community doesn’t want the game to be challenging. So since the game can’t be challenging for the most part, it has to be grindy. It is one of two more or less, the game is either grindy or hard, if neither of these excist then there won’t be content, and if there is, it will be run through quickly and nothing will be leftover in 2 weeks.

So create content with different levels of difficulty. The base story level is casual then ramp up with harder group play and perhaps open world content with either scalable or varying levels of diffficulty. I reckon swtor has got a pretty good balance with this now although their issue is not enough content at the higher end ATM.

I reckon with the overall HOT design (once raids become available) anet has the makings of a really good base mmo design to carry forward into Guild Wars 3 but they just have to be acutely aware of issues like the hero challenge issue. Its such a good blend of theme park and open world content.

Hero Challenges are not repeatable content.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Hero Challenges are not repeatable content.

Actually, champion Hero Points reward a daily popup chest with decent rewards and exp. I do them each day if I run past them. You can solo/duo them and it’s not difficult to get a group together from map chat if need be.

These actually are really good for leveling masteries, and once you have a few masteries such as Gliding lean techniques, nuhoc wallows, and exalted (the first one.. recognition? I don’t remember) getting around the jungle is fun and intuitive.

So yeah they are repeatable and they are fun content.