Guild Wars 2

+1

I support this 100%, probably the best thread I have seen on these forums in a really long time. I really hope ArenaNet pays attention to this thread and all of the positive, on topic discussion and feedback associated along with it. As for being apart of a more recently formed off-hours WvW guild, I believe an offical gamemode like this would help get our feet wet into the GvG scene, and many others too. It would also, in my opinion, inevitably bring back many players/playerbases to the game from all timezones. Really would look forward to this if it became a reality.

:)

+1 and bump lads

Tyldor.9078:

I’d also like to touch the fairweather part that has became a huge thing in the GvG scene. Alot of guilds will not challenge a bigger/established guild to GvG because ‘’they know they will lose’‘. There’s a ton of guild leaders out there claiming they want to reach the top tier, yet they avoid fighting more experienced/skilled guilds. This blows my mind. Just go out there, fight whoever you can, learn from your losses and work on them.

So many good guilds who have retired or are about to retire because ’’it’s boring, not enough competition, decease of the crown’’ type of thing. But is there really anyone putting their shoulders under this scene and trying to help lesser guilds? Something you should ask yourself. ( This is a quite loaded subject as I can also understand the players in the good guilds, I’ve kinda been there myself a little bit aswell ).

I think this sort of pinpoints the reasons in which the scene has sort of died on multiple occasions, which is the fact that you have maybe 2 or 3 guilds that are hyper competitive with eachother, but are miles ahead of the next 4 best guilds on the “ladder”. So much so to the point where you can learn very little GvGing them because they just absolutely crush so hard.

I think it’s worthwhile to explore the fact that there needs to be a better dissemination of knowledge. I’m of the opinion that the basics of fighting is very simple (which leads to the conclusion that fighting is mindless) but that there are many nuances that veteran and casual WvW players alike don’t understand.

On the other hand, I also don’t think that it’s necessarily the responsibility of top tier guilds to take it upon themselves to help the guilds that are significantly behind. Logistically it doesn’t work to have these guilds go searching for guilds that want help. I think it comes down to less established guilds to seek out help from the better guilds.

My raid driver frequently points out that people won’t remember what you were, but what you are. If the less established guilds truly desire to get better, and take it upon themselves to find material and seek out help, when they finally reach a point where they become competitive with their peers, or even surpass them, no one will remember the learning period that guild went through, just the fact that now they’re good. But it all comes down to how resolved they are at wanting to get better. A lot of guilds sort of half kitten their way into the scene, and give up before they make a serious name for themselves.

I used to think the top guilds were untouchable, but now I think anyone can be beat as long as you put in the effort to improve as a group.

It’s sort of a chicken and egg problem, but I think the first step to solving it is to have a comprehensive collection of important and CORRECT information regarding how to fight.

Anyway +1. There’s definitely a good argument for the existence of the fight scene, whether it be open field raiding, or GvGs. Official support can definitely be argued on both sides, but I think the scene should definitely exist as it adds a new layer of complexity to the combat system not seen anywhere else in the game.

+1 and bump for the disscusion

+1.

This would be great for the GvG community and for people who enjoy to watch GvG’s.
It would be nice to see some effort from ANET for us who only play this game only because we enjoy the nice large scale combat it offers.

Exodus.6501:

I came here to post my support

Now that I had time to think on it a bit, try to address some points in the CDI Fallen&co.

1) How would the leaderboards work? If a MMR system was created that resembles the current PvP system, people could be sitting in queue for up to an hour before finding a match. Would it be easier to simply match you against a team that holds the closest leaderboard rank to your own guild? And then the team with the higher rank be forced to fight in the home turf of the lower ranked team?

2) Would the existing WvW system need to be changed? If another raid system was created, would this mean fewer people would play WvW? And if so, how much of a bad thing is this anyway? Currently it’s all about coverage. In the lower tiers you spend all evening/night trying to take over your own keeps etc only to wake up in the morning and see they’ve all been taken over by the people playing late into the night or early morning.

3) Rewards. Or are they unnecessary? Could make it a system where the leaderboards reset every couple months and the only thing you’re playing for is prestige. Or they can add some account-bound skins that cannot be traded so people don’t mess up the economy of the game that a new reward system can make happen.

4) There is a limit of 5 guilds that each person has in the game. How would you prevent a single person from joining different guilds and trying to stack them all at the top of the leaderboards to harvest the most rewards? Make a person locked in by the week (ie if you raid with a guild in a single week then you’re stuck being able to raid ONLY with that guild for that week) or would this not be enough since you could probably power house a guild into the top 10 within a week or two and then start playing as another guild to get that one to the top as well so you could just flip-flop between the two every other week and keep them both high for double the rewards. Could lock people in the same guild for the entirety of the leaderboard season but many guilds die within a week or two due to inactivity/friction, and I could see this happening even more in such a competitive environment.

Will add more below if I think of more, time to get back to work

+1, loved doing the bit of GvG I did do. I really enjoyed WvW for the fights, but when those dried up and GvG became less prevalent as the WvW people who were into it stopped being around… well, it’s sad. Happy to see there are still people around, and enough to make it comparable to the sPVP side fo things it looks like, and that’s with a bunch of people having already left because ANet didn’t support this type of play.

ANet make the smart move and put this in the game please.

Jinn.7948:

Tyldor.9078:

I’d also like to touch the fairweather part that has became a huge thing in the GvG scene. Alot of guilds will not challenge a bigger/established guild to GvG because ‘’they know they will lose’‘. There’s a ton of guild leaders out there claiming they want to reach the top tier, yet they avoid fighting more experienced/skilled guilds. This blows my mind. Just go out there, fight whoever you can, learn from your losses and work on them.

So many good guilds who have retired or are about to retire because ’’it’s boring, not enough competition, decease of the crown’’ type of thing. But is there really anyone putting their shoulders under this scene and trying to help lesser guilds? Something you should ask yourself. ( This is a quite loaded subject as I can also understand the players in the good guilds, I’ve kinda been there myself a little bit aswell ).

I think this sort of pinpoints the reasons in which the scene has sort of died on multiple occasions, which is the fact that you have maybe 2 or 3 guilds that are hyper competitive with eachother, but are miles ahead of the next 4 best guilds on the “ladder”. So much so to the point where you can learn very little GvGing them because they just absolutely crush so hard.

I think it’s worthwhile to explore the fact that there needs to be a better dissemination of knowledge. I’m of the opinion that the basics of fighting is very simple (which leads to the conclusion that fighting is mindless) but that there are many nuances that veteran and casual WvW players alike don’t understand.

On the other hand, I also don’t think that it’s necessarily the responsibility of top tier guilds to take it upon themselves to help the guilds that are significantly behind. Logistically it doesn’t work to have these guilds go searching for guilds that want help. I think it comes down to less established guilds to seek out help from the better guilds.

It definately has to come from both sides, I also did not mean the good players have to leave their current guild to help out less experienced guilds, but usually I see ‘’informative posts’’ with mediocre builds. The guilds will always give out a good direction of where to go, but it’s never the proper build that a decent/top guild actually runs. After having done so many GvG’s myself, it’s not Build Wars 2. Any experienced player who you do not want them to have your real builds ( Cause that’s the only reason good established guilds will not publish their builds ) will figure out what you run anyway. Not 100% accurately, but atleast 80-90% of your builds is something you can pick up by just fighting you or looking at gameplay video’s/streams from you/your members.

We as a community should put more attention to the few people making guides, posting up builds and explaining nuanced tactics. This should close the gap by miles and make it more interesting already. Once we got to the point that we tried that, then it’s time to point fingers at others. ( And yes, I understand that is is kind of a long-term investment not fixing our problems instantly. )

The problems are seen in a wrong kind of direction. It’s; WvW didn’t meet expectations > GvG was born > Top guilds fought it out > ANet implemented stupid stuff like the +75% or 80% ( correct me if I’m wrong ) damage on Arrow Carts etc making guilds doubt ANets intentions for WvW > The oldschool guilds left cause they either reached their goals or felt ignored by ANet as they saw their beloved gamemode slowly being taken over by mechanics that support blobbing or hugging objectives.

After that whole mechanical story, people’s ego’s got in the way aswell. Fairweather became a trend and all the other stuff I mentioned in my other post. The original problem is the WvW Borderlands and how ANet turns them into a casual friendly environment using AI and/or big numbers to win. Not ‘’hardcore fighting friendly’’.

This discussion is going kind of off-topic tho. I still support the idea of getting more attention towards GvG’s/getting a new gamemode which focuses around fighting with a ‘’raid sized’’ group and all that kind of stuff that has been mentioned. Just don’t do it for the wrong reasons – eSports/tournaments and all that stuff.

Rabidd.9458:

Now that I had time to think on it a bit, try to address some points in the CDI Fallen&co.

1) How would the leaderboards work? If a MMR system was created that resembles the current PvP system, people could be sitting in queue for up to an hour before finding a match. Would it be easier to simply match you against a team that holds the closest leaderboard rank to your own guild? And then the team with the higher rank be forced to fight in the home turf of the lower ranked team?

2) Would the existing WvW system need to be changed? If another raid system was created, would this mean fewer people would play WvW? And if so, how much of a bad thing is this anyway? Currently it’s all about coverage. In the lower tiers you spend all evening/night trying to take over your own keeps etc only to wake up in the morning and see they’ve all been taken over by the people playing late into the night or early morning.

3) Rewards. Or are they unnecessary? Could make it a system where the leaderboards reset every couple months and the only thing you’re playing for is prestige. Or they can add some account-bound skins that cannot be traded so people don’t mess up the economy of the game that a new reward system can make happen.

4) There is a limit of 5 guilds that each person has in the game. How would you prevent a single person from joining different guilds and trying to stack them all at the top of the leaderboards to harvest the most rewards? Make a person locked in by the week (ie if you raid with a guild in a single week then you’re stuck being able to raid ONLY with that guild for that week) or would this not be enough since you could probably power house a guild into the top 10 within a week or two and then start playing as another guild to get that one to the top as well so you could just flip-flop between the two every other week and keep them both high for double the rewards. Could lock people in the same guild for the entirety of the leaderboard season but many guilds die within a week or two due to inactivity/friction, and I could see this happening even more in such a competitive environment.

Will add more below if I think of more, time to get back to work

I think a good thing to note, that was sort of touched upon before was that maybe it shouldn’t be a queue system, and that rewards aren’t necessarily important.

Queuing naturally doesn’t work for something so large scale, but a system to organize raids better I think would be welcome.

+1 Great thread, great idea

I’d be happy to see something as simple as an arena system that supports up to 20 on each side and utilizes pve/wvw gear rather than pvp amulets. The single most limiting factor in the TDM gvg style is that it’s directly related to your wvw server. This forces guild members to all be on the same server, competition is limited to the two other servers in your wvw matchup, and guilds can’t fight each other if they’re on the same server.

GvG is a very popular format, even for those who don’t actively participate. The vast majority of gw2 players aren’t even aware of its existence, and yet it’s still a thriving game mode (admittedly the NA scene is less active at the highly competitive level right now.) I can only imagine how huge the scene might be if it ever received official support from Anet.

Plenty of material out there. http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki The top gvg guilds already released their builds months ago. There are plenty of videos going back to the early days that teach the basics of GvG. Maybe someone could compile them here for people who are curious to take a look at.

I think Anet said something over a year ago on why they couldn’t provide GvG battles, I forget the article (someone post the link please.) They provided the Sanctum in WvW but it’s a boneyard unless two Guilds go over and paln accordingly. Still sucks there isnt a playlist that supports GvG instead of player created events.

+1 this.

Great idea. Well thought out. Perhaps us as the community can work on something to show that we can implement it. And then have them officially support it. Anyone remember game battles back in the day?

Building off of what was mentioned earlier then, it’s going to boil down to us as the leading guilds/players in WvW to tone down our guild sizes when we enter maps. Groups such kitten, SG, GH (EU’s Golden Horde), and other guilds that only run at least 30-40 of guilded members, on TOP of being pinned up for all of the maps pugs to follow are part of the reason why there seems to be a race to get guilds bigger and bigger to try and take them on. ESPECIALLY with SE and GH, because not only have the decided on running at least 30-40+, but have also adapted some of the cheesier meta nuances (Venom wells and Corrupt booning opposing drivers, because that’s totally necessary to do when you’re 50v25ing). It’s not really the greatest thing to admit here, but what we sort of need to do have from ArenaNet and the other players and guilds in WvW is a general shaming of groups that do this. For one, I know in EU that when any associated guild with 20-25 runs into GH once, GH gets that one 50vWho Cares steamroll before that guild will just avoid GH for the rest of the night. And this will happen with EVERY guild GH runs into until literally no one will fight GH for the rest of the night. And that’s exactly what they deserve for being that level of kittenhead, running 40-50 AND meta cheese. That’s not fun to fight against, and no one is going to support you running it by allowing you to steamroll them over and over again.

The problem is, we don’t exactly have something like that over in NA. In fact, most guilds can’t even freaking count their opponents successfully. It’s quite hilarious listening in Teamspeak when two groups will initially run into each other, and what you have is a few heinous scout reports that will claim that the enemy has up to 10-15 more than what they actually have, somehow justifying in the larger blobs’ minds that they won’t feel bad steamrolling over a group half their size, and will even credit themselves on their skill and courage. It’s just more and more nonsense and self-destructive attitudes that has lead to this sad state of WvW that we have been left with after almost 3 years of gameplay.

What I think many of us fighters want to see is to have an overall toning down of the sheer amount of players on a single tag. Sure pug forces can still exist, but maps during primetime should be filled with guild groups of 10-25 members, with a final portion of the map being reserved for roamers. If those two are correct, then the final piece of the pug group taking up map space should only be allowed to be about 30 at max. And please, please, please just learn how to count. If you see two groups of 20-25 already duking it out in an area, don’t just walk in with your extra 20-30 just to steamroll “for the bags”. You’re not cute, you’re not good, you’re just rude. I’m looking directly at you, [KILL].

Personally, I have nothing against GvG as a concept. Organizing 20 people to fulfill a goal isn’t, hasn’t and never will be a problem.

However, the problem that I see is in the spectators and in the eSports aspect. Quite obviously, people will watch 20v20s, that’s not an issue. But sanctioning it from ANet’s side is not feasible. Just organizing the broadcasting would be a logistics nightmare. Who would you use as the perspective? You clearly can’t keep switching between 20 people, but not doing that downplays the value of individual players. And how many shoutcasters would you need?

Another aspect that would be a complete clusterkitten: LAN tournaments. You literally could never, ever, hold a tournament using 20 people teams. Even if you only LANed the final, that’d be 40 people that you need to fly and house in a single location. That’s an extremely difficult task.

And one thing that you need to note: Sports in general love talking about individual talent. People are less interested in which teams are playing and more which players are playing. Now, how exactly would that work with 20 player teams? Unless you can justify every single individual player without relying on the system restriction of 5 player parties, you can’t say that a 20 player team size is appropriate.

if at least they put an arena like obsidian sanctum in EOTM where guilds from all servers can join. The rest can be done by the community like leaderboards.

I’ll address a few issues that ANet seems to have (the few times they even acknowledged GvG):

1) The name. It’s unfortunate that GvG refers to something entirely different in Guild Wars 1 and 2. But it made sense to the players who created the format. It’s a Guild vs Guild battle. If ANet goes official with this game mode, they could call it Guild Battle, for example. Magic: The Gathering (the card game) has a format called Commander. But it wasn’t always called that. For years, players called it Elder Dragon Highlander (EDH). It was entirely supported by the playerbase, including a rules committee. As this community grew, Hasbro finally realized they were leaving money on the table. Now they release special Commander decks, and release cards for Commander in their regular sets. I should note that MtG saw a huge surge in players following the official adoption of EDH. I don’t think its a coincidence. EDH started as a niche, but now Commander is the most popular format in Magic.

2) Disrupting WvW. Giving the GvG players (and duelists) the arena in Obsidian Sanctum solved most of these issues. But GvG guilds still try to influence their server’s placement, in order to face different opponents. Sometimes this means losing WvW matches on purpose. Not cool. A separate arena, like PvP has, would resolve this issue. Give us custom 20v20 servers, and charge triple. This would also serve as a source of steady income. Every serious WvW guild would want their own arena, even if it was only for practicing amongst themselves.

3) Exclusivity. I don’t think ANet has mentioned this directly, but it shows in the entire game’s design. They don’t want players to feel left out. This issue is easier to avoid than it seems. Make a separate, unranked queue for big deathmatch battles. Create a simple, custom map. Heck, ArenaNet could even reuse old assets, like the current arena in Obsidian Sanctum, or even the Charr arena near Black Citadel. Casual players, who make up the majority of this game, would get a fun, hectic game-mode to play around in outside of WvW. Guild battles would still have their place in custom arenas. Most importantly, we don’t need an official leaderboard for GvG. We don’t need this to be an eSport. ANet is welcome to try that, of course. But the community has done just fine with their own leaderboards, and most of us never cared about who was the best guild.

GvGers just want a place to have big, fair fights, without all the hassle. And we’re willing to spend money to get that.

Keep in mind this topic is not strictly about the current state of WvW or our version of GvG within WvW. While we can learn valuable lessons from our experiences of WvW and “GvG”, the purpose of this topic is the implementation of a COMPETITIVE and official mode or sub-mode which supports “raid-size” teams.

We all know that WvW is casual, not competitive, and our version of GvG is an unsanctioned mode for a multitude of reasons. The purpose of this discussion and the upcoming community-driven CDI is to brainstorm and attempt to develop something feasible for ArenaNet to create a supported competitive scene for players that wish to PvP on a raid scale (10-20v).

Appreciate the constructive comments. Keep them coming, and keep bumping!

EDIT: Bleachi made a good point about Magic: The Gathering, and how that game mode took off after development by the community. Look at DotA. DotA started out as a player-made map within WC3, which was a strategy game. Now DotA and games like it are some of the biggest esport venues in the world.

In response to people talking about it disrupting everyday WvW:

All the fights guild would still likely spend a good amount of time in everyday WvW running around, fighting blobs, practicing, all that good stuff, which would unfortunately mean alot of guilds would try to flock together in the tier that provides the most fights, and get an opportunity to also run into each other in the open field, which is what we see now anyways. So, unfortunately, that won’t change, what will change is that all the guilds will still have access in some way shape or form to fight each other in these new arena if they are implemented.

No guild spends all their time fighting in the OS, there’s a lot of potential good practice in the open field when going face to face with a blob double your size, so I don’t think in all honesty everyday WvW would be affected too much.

Tyldor.9078:

+1 ofcourse.
…
My opinion is that Anet could have done more to support the organized raid sized groups rather than promoting blobbing, but the real GvG feeling is something that the developers can’t boost, it’s the GvG community really.

…
A competetive scene is created together, with guilds putting time and effort into getting better for the sole purpose of being recognized as the best guild around. Acknowledgement of Anet could boost this consent to get good, but will it revive the scene? It’s not a new game anymore, WvW maps will be changed into PPT/ defensive objective hugging environments and the revenant hype will die down sooner or later. I doubt Esports, tournaments and leaderboards are a good idea for the GvG scene. Like someone mentioned earlier, GvG was a gamemode designed to escape the harsh reality called WvW. Whenever Anet drops the idea of turning WvW into a huge Point Per Tick environment and actually adds elements ( without outside-combat mechanics ) which encourage fighting, the scene will more likely revive than having eSport hype train coming over ( something that will never happen because GvG’s are too complicated to turn into eSports ).

…
…
The only problem that this community has, is that the newer/less experienced guilds are getting smashed if they’d try to go higher up. The difference between top tier GvG scene and the other tier(s) of the scene are too big. They’re going through evolution the majority of us posting here gone through 2 years ago. The only way to close this gap quicker would be publicing and ecouraging more informative posts. Most veteran GvG players will mention synergy, coordination and communication to be the key part of their success, but we forget that the lower tier GvG guilds are still figuring out builds and trying traits that we flagged off 2 years ago.

TL;DR – A more open communication and cohersion between top- and lower tier GvG guilds would boost the community up.

Oh Tyldor you put it so nicely in your posts. Exactly to the point! Please everyone backtrack and read these.

It is not esports, leadersboards and such things that will make WvW and GvG grow.
It is the improvement of the average guild, increase in skill and number of solid guilds, that will change the WvW environment and make GvG scene the best it can be!

( I talked alot about this a page back)
The core issue is in how WvW is played and what kind of numbers are used that is key to solve for healthy WvW (more like GvG). It is also hard for a average guild to become better when they can always just say ‘they were more, 10 pugs’ and so on, people don’t run similar numbers, they never have to face it and say ‘ok we lost in fair battle, what can we do better?’.

There is a huge difference between top ~4 and other guilds in each region. But this huge difference comes from very simple things that are done better.
The hardest part of improving is starting it, once you get it rolling the it all happens automatically. That is why triggers like leader change, reqruits, new patch, new video, new month what ever excuse you can find is key to improve as a guild. Time to go over the basics againg, perfect things to make everyone to be on the ball and what is the plan. Instead of staying average, you will never improve from there without asking simple questions like hey I know this seems simple but when are you useing your waters againg?, when are you timeing your shouts? Stability? What weapon should I open the fight? … These are the questions that a average guild never asks because for some reason there is this embarrasment of going through basic stuff and perfecting it. This is why “#1” guild can kill “#10” without talking in TS with troll builds, everybody knows their basics and what is the plan.

+1 for GvG and improving average skill level of guilds and making WvW to be guild centered.
-1 for leaderboards (sure go ahead as a after tough when everything is good), esports, queing systems.

I really just want a personal arena area (in guild halls, would be perfect) that can support a leaderboard cough the day anet knows how to work a leaderboard cough and a set of rules with a locked roster (maybe even builds) at the start of the GvG. Anything else is too much to ask, they will never give a complete gamemode with all that fancy stuff with queues when they already have a problem with making it work 5v5 sPvP.

PS: Stop calling guilds that tries “kitten” just to put yourself back up on that pedestal. It shouldn’t be a reason not to try but really what the kitten does that accomplish? It doesn’t help the community grow and you know it.

What can i say more but +1 for this topic ?

Expectations are real. We do not need a lot. Guild housing with 50 slots could be so kittening huge already.

You’ve all my support guys !

Let’s hype for HoT. Make it better, make it together !

Aya.
[HoW] Leader.

+1 for the post. Ive been in the GvG scene for a while now and its one of the main reasons I play the game. I had great fights with my NA buddies when we went to EU last week. Thanks all the guilds who came and fought us.

I hope the devs take a second look at gvg.

Most productive GvG thread I’ve ever seen. Some of my thoughts.

1) This has been said before in this thread. I don’t think most GvG’rs are asking for strictly a Team Deathmatch. There’s lots of potential for many interesting game modes for large scale PvP. There’s so many classic game modes like CTF, Conquest, GW1 style GvG, etc. that would be immensely fun at a larger scale with GW2s combat system. Variety and a lack of NPCs are the most important things.

2) It doesn’t have to be an e-sport, it just has to be fun. Yes, a 15-20 man GvG would be difficult to hold official events for. What benefit does a game being an e-sport really bring to the non-professional players? Many other MMOs and many games have had successful organized PvP gamemodes that never were and were never intended to be e-sports.

If A.net were to respond, an official GvG game mode with multiple modes would obviously be a long way off. At very least give us some show of support. Allow the Obsidian Sanctum arena to work similar to EOTM.

Sabull.5670:

2/2
Why did the WvWvW culture develop into 50+man zone blobs. Instead of 2020202020 split. This is a subject of what ifs for the beta days.
What Anet failed to do (didn’t want to) was to incentivise a static raid sizes and focus on guilds. There are multiple small things there could have been to start of the evolution of WvW to the right direction, like (at launch), the WvW became runaway arms race with numbers (10 man cannot kill the guild, guild cannot kill the blob, megaguild becomes 30+ and kills the blob, guild cannot kill the megaguild) (first blob guilds and blobs (50+) were national guilds and server). This has since toned down, the time of megaguilds is dead (actual good guilds running regular 30+), and amount of static king of ruins fights have increased because killing a full zone blob is very difficult with 20-25 compared to 35.

Private commander tags, colored tags, commander guild tag on map, maximum squad size and a reason to join it (master calls, alert or something, commander skills), guild size has to be upgraded for larger, guild banner you can carry, guild tabard, guild halls, guild banner shown in LA if you the king, these are just things with “commander” and “guild” in them there is plenty more from mechanics, map layout blablabla and so on.
OS with 20v20 showmatches “supported” (aknowledged, encouraged) by Anet at and after launch, w/e (so people know 20 is your goal, not 35).
Big part of the 20 man ideology (24) was born from WAR because that was our idea of WvW, without this influence WvW would be a mess.

So… The moment I see someone mention e-sports and money with GvG I cry of anger and frustration because simply that is not possible even in the wildest dreams so don’t even mention that (cmon).
Then people mention que systems with supported tournaments, I cry out of sadness – the WvW culture could be different and we wouldn’t have to be thinking about these things. I think of practicalities and it is not really possible because takeing away GvG guilds from WvW means death of WvW and the people in these guilds want both spontanious openfield fighting and controlled GvGs, not just latter! Aka not possible or good for the guilds nor WvW.
If people ever pick up on the core issues of " WvW should be different so we wouldn’t need GvG" or how Anet should have and should design new maps (EotM), guild&commander changes and all changes to guide and push the culture to be guild centered not random community blob centered. I jump of joy and I don’t have to do these posts.

TLDR

hide spoiler

TLDR:
GvG was born because WvW should be more like “GvG” (equal numbers, 20man guild centered). GvG was not born and does not work for esports, money, queing systems because of … practicalities. Please do not talk about such.

More work should have been done by Anet to guide the WvW culture toward 20/20/20/20/20 man guild split in a maxed zone instead of 50/30/—, and fighter guilds are forced to have static king of hill fights with each other every day instead of spontanious fair fights.

GvG community should have more faith and courage to create new guilds, train new players ( if you need help trying to train up your lowly guild sure gimme a tell ) and encourage more players to play like we do and think like we do.
Anet should design new changes and maps to encourage the general meta to be more like multiple gvgs all around the map rather than a single blob.

More “gvg” -> Less skill lag, more FPS

+1 Top post,
I certainly can see a way of Arena Net Supporting some sort of league system that happens once in a while with maybe a Gem reward for 3rd 2nd and 1st place.
It’s not a #Esports game mode at all, nor should it be, Community made tornys with Arena Net support, that i can see.

+1

you are sitting on an absolute goldmine here. it almost seems like you guys don’t realise what a phenomenal game you have made.

I just came here to support everything that has been said.
No much to add, just that GvG scene is the most passionate there is in the game, and i dying slowly.. Wont spoil, but many team currently disbanding cuz of lack of interest and competition.
A little support would bring lot of old players, and be really business-full for Anet with cash-shop related stuff.

Anyway, big support for this and thanks to every guild we fought (most recently thanks to USA for making the trip over EU).

Siegh – HoW

I agree with Sabull about WvW, but changes to WvW are not going to fix another main reason why GvG came to be. The ability to fight other groups of identical numbers without interference from other players/ guilds. To have strict group compositions without randoms to rallybot. Put 3 servers with 5 guilds of 20 players each on one map and its going to get crowded quick.

I completely disagree with blaming the community for the failures of GvG. It is entirely 100% due to the lack of support from Arena.net. The lack of balancing(literally no one likes the current Pirate Ship Meta), The lack of cross-tier GvGing, The lack of incentives and rewards. I’ve seen amazing people successfully train and improve lower level guilds. But it’s not something that should fairly be expected by anyone. We’re hear to play a game and have fun. It is up to Arena.net to foster a community and make the game fun and competitive for us.

I, Lord Reaver Jericho first of his name, King of NA, Usurper of EU, Sacker of Blackgate, Captain of the Aggression Sellsword Company, approve of this message.

+1 to OP and Sabull

I am here to show my support to GVG

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/GvG-community-ignored-again-why/first#post4780149

I can’t find the original quote the dev was referencing but this question has been answered already.

gjop.8612:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/GvG-community-ignored-again-why/first#post4780149

I can’t find the original quote the dev was referencing but this question has been answered already.

The difference here is that they haven’t shut down this thread yet. They even let it go for at least 3 pages. I think there’s merit in discussing what may and may not work. We already acknowledge the fact that a 4th mode to maintain and split the player base is probably out of the question, but that doesn’t mean that a compromise can’t be made.

gjop.8612:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/GvG-community-ignored-again-why/first#post4780149.

“I’m sorry this is a disappointment to some of you, but our focus is currently on the three existing game modes, PvE, WvW and PvP.”

“…but our focus is currently on the three existing game modes, PvE, WvW and PvP.”

“…focus…on….WvW…”

AHA. AHAHAHAAHA. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OH GOD THAT’S RICH.

PredatoR.5247:

I, Lord Reaver Jericho first of his name, King of NA, Usurper of EU, Sacker of Blackgate, Captain of the Aggression Sellsword Company, approve of this message.

I take it someone is watching GoT?

+1
This is really a no-brainer.
If my memory serves even developers who went to GvG guilds during the Adopt-A-Dev program had a blast.
Any game mode lacking a central focus on NPCs and the use of siege and instead requiring players to actually play their class will have huge support.

I 100% agree to this. This is what the community has asked for and wanted since before this game came out. This is what the the community will continue to ask for until this happens.

+1 Support this post!

Here to support this

I’ve put lots of work in this community and would love to see some more support

+1

Support for the GvG community!

+1

As a causal WvWer, I dont even GvG or do 20v20 but anyone can recognize the significance of having more game modes (and ones that can easily be created at that) or having a boarder appeal for prospective players.

Definitely agree with you about GW2’s combat being unique and perfect for 10-20sv10-20s. There is definitely a lot of untapped potential here that could be harnessed greatly. GW2 could even sport saying it has a brand new unique game-mode all its own. This is great!

Lets not flame. Just keep this constructive and positive.

The WvW community is too hostile and toxic for ANet to be able to market it. Ironically enough, the best way to verify this claim is simply to look at the OP’s conduct on other forums where this supposedly-thriving community hangs out. Spoiler: it ain’t pretty. There’s not much salvageable in this place. It’s a very small percentage of players, to be honest, and that small percentage isn’t particularly pleasant (to put it lightly).

That’s a -1 from me

+1

I just read through each and every post on this thread.

For what it’s worth, I too hope to see some sort of official GvG support from Anet.

As for the toxicity of the community… I dunno. I try to be positive and respectful. (I’ll PM people in WvW and say “nice fight,” in hopes to set up more duels, etc.)

But I know tempers can flare in any competitive scenario. I don’t think that’s a reason to just write off what could be a great game mode.

+1

Wanted to reinforce a few key points. It is disheartening to see so many arguments on the forums between folks who don’t like this game mode and those who do largely over what its being called. Often they mock it as ZergvZerg and make comparisons to GW1 GvG. I think it would go a long way to agreeing on a unique name for this game mode so that people not interested or misinformed don’t contribute so much negativity surrounding the topic. Personally, I support calling it Raid Scale PvP (rPvP) or gPvP and stick to referring to GvG from GW1 as just that: GW1 GvG.

Secondly, I think the emphasis on esports, leaderboards, business opportunities and queues should be avoided. This is not a larger version of sPvP, it’s a distinct game mode and the infastructure and marketing should not be mimicked. Queues obviously won’t work, the times would be gargantuan. Just implement instanced arena’s that hold up to 20 players that uses WvW gear. Make a few bucks selling them on the gem store and let the community organize their own matchups. This would allow matches between guilds in different tiers and eliminate trolls.

Finally, just wanted to reiterate the massive number of hours top guilds have invested in perfecting gameplay and theorycrafting, the passion is definitely evident. The Magic the Gathering reference with Commander was spot on and is evidence that a community invented game mode can succeed and how to properly incorporate such a game mode.

Sabull.5670:

2/2
Why did the WvWvW culture develop into 50+man zone blobs. Instead of 2020202020 split. This is a subject of what ifs for the beta days.
What Anet failed to do (didn’t want to) was to incentivise a static raid sizes and focus on guilds. There are multiple small things there could have been to start of the evolution of WvW to the right direction, like (at launch), the WvW became runaway arms race with numbers (10 man cannot kill the guild, guild cannot kill the blob, megaguild becomes 30+ and kills the blob, guild cannot kill the megaguild) (first blob guilds and blobs (50+) were national guilds and server). This has since toned down, the time of megaguilds is dead (actual good guilds running regular 30+), and amount of static king of ruins fights have increased because killing a full zone blob is very difficult with 20-25 compared to 35.

Private commander tags, colored tags, commander guild tag on map, maximum squad size and a reason to join it (master calls, alert or something, commander skills), guild size has to be upgraded for larger, guild banner you can carry, guild tabard, guild halls, guild banner shown in LA if you the king, these are just things with “commander” and “guild” in them there is plenty more from mechanics, map layout blablabla and so on.
OS with 20v20 showmatches “supported” (aknowledged, encouraged) by Anet at and after launch, w/e (so people know 20 is your goal, not 35).
Big part of the 20 man ideology (24) was born from WAR because that was our idea of WvW, without this influence WvW would be a mess.

So… The moment I see someone mention e-sports and money with GvG I cry of anger and frustration because simply that is not possible even in the wildest dreams so don’t even mention that (cmon).
Then people mention que systems with supported tournaments, I cry out of sadness – the WvW culture could be different and we wouldn’t have to be thinking about these things. I think of practicalities and it is not really possible because takeing away GvG guilds from WvW means death of WvW and the people in these guilds want both spontanious openfield fighting and controlled GvGs, not just latter! Aka not possible or good for the guilds nor WvW.
If people ever pick up on the core issues of " WvW should be different so we wouldn’t need GvG" or how Anet should have and should design new maps (EotM), guild&commander changes and all changes to guide and push the culture to be guild centered not random community blob centered. I jump of joy and I don’t have to do these posts.

TLDR

hide spoiler

TLDR:
GvG was born because WvW should be more like “GvG” (equal numbers, 20man guild centered). GvG was not born and does not work for esports, money, queing systems because of … practicalities. Please do not talk about such.

More work should have been done by Anet to guide the WvW culture toward 20/20/20/20/20 man guild split in a maxed zone instead of 50/30/—, and fighter guilds are forced to have static king of hill fights with each other every day instead of spontanious fair fights.

GvG community should have more faith and courage to create new guilds, train new players ( if you need help trying to train up your lowly guild sure gimme a tell ) and encourage more players to play like we do and think like we do.
Anet should design new changes and maps to encourage the general meta to be more like multiple gvgs all around the map rather than a single blob.

More “gvg” -> Less skill lag, more FPS

+1 for the community coming to the table with a great discussion. Thanks Sabull for this post in particular, really helping solidify steps going forward.

To those that think that the “poison” of the WvW community should block the implementation of this idea, every portion of a game has a toxic population that shouldn’t be considered the majority. Most consumers are smart enough to realize this. From my experiences in game, and from the simple fact that I do not know the OP personally, I can’t really say that the WvW community is majorly “toxic” and “hostile” enough to warrant blocking the addition of a game system that not only draws upon a well beloved game system from gw1 (GvG) but a much sought after system in the current game.

+1 Showing my support for this thread and the community.

My greatest experience in GW2 was being in a top WvW/GvG guild (PYRO) that fought against even or greater amounts of people, which allowed us as a guild to grow on an individual and group skill level. This led us to take on bigger and more skilled opponents and kept us interested in GW2 because we had fun seeing our guild grow into a fine-tuned fighting machine. The game is getting stale with the new pirate ship meta and a decreasing amount of fight groups around the 15-25 mark to fight (especially playing on Mag where it is usually the SBI pug blob, some roamers, or nothing since DB NA is dead).

What people said before, raid size competition with our WvW setup in an environment free from trolls, npcs, and environmental gimmicks will capture a lot of old (and hopefully new) players back into this game. We just need the means to fight each other in such a manner, which only Anet can provide. Hopefully then, the community will have enough competition to figure out the rest and make it big again.

And to those who complain about the ‘toxicity’ of the GvG scene, it is bound to happen in any competitive game. It is just a little extra spice that adds a bit of excitement for the players involved. From my experience, there is a lot of respect between guilds and players for all their hard work to be good at this game.