Guild Wars 2

sorudo.9054:

a story i can’t complete because i need X mastery unlocked is exactly the reason why it’s flawed, i never heard of a single game or book that makes you do something completely unrelated to the story just to continue the story.

While I can certainly understand the desire not to have to grind through stuff, one of the features of Heart of Thorns is that the instances don’t tell the whole story. Part of the story is being told in the maps themselves. So having to get a bit of experience in the open world rather than just rushing through the instances is not actually making you do something unrelated to the story – it’s trying to push you to experience the parts of the story that aren’t in the instances.

Many of the event chains in Verdant Brink, for example, are essentially the epilogues to story instances. In fact, there is something of an order to them – you start with Torn from the Sky, then you have the Pale Reaver event chain, then the Pact Camp event chain, then Jungle Provides, then the Itzel chain after that, then Prisoners of the Dragon (possibly with a detour to the shipwrecked nobles chain beforehand) and finally the Ordnance Corps event chain. Now, one unfortunate side-effect of the way the system works is that you can end up doing things out of order, but every event chain is part of the bigger story.

Now, one consideration is that they may not all be part of the Pact Commander’s personal story. There are places, particularly in the later maps, where the Pact Commander is probably somewhere else when that event happened. For instance, the Pact Commander probably does not take part in the gerent event (the PC takes a different route into Dragon’s Stand), and the battle with the Mouth of Mordremoth is implied to be happening while the Pact Commander is in the final instance (or possibly the final two instances). However, these are still part of the story, and can be considered to be equivalent to when a novel, movie, or other medium switches scene away from the main protagonist to show what is happening elsewhere – in those events, it’s probably better to think of yourself as playing the role of a Pact soldier rather than the Dragonslayer.

At the bottom line, however, the events in the open world Heart of Thorns maps are part of the story, and if you don’t partake in at least some of them, you’re essentially skipping half of the story.

This is not to say that I fully agree with gating the story behind masteries. It was a bit jarring, for instance, being told to take Glint’s egg to Tarir ASAP, and then be told that you need to grind a mastery before you can do so. However, I don’t think the criticism that the open world events are “something completely unrelated to the story” is at all fair.

sorudo.9054:

a story i can’t complete because i need X mastery unlocked is exactly the reason why it’s flawed, i never heard of a single game or book that makes you do something completely unrelated to the story just to continue the story.

This is the issue I have with Mastery Points. Let’s stop doing the HoT story so I can go play some arcade games to get the MP I need to continue the story. And of course the Adventures are locked behind the Meta, so you either wait or give up and go do something else that doesn’t waste your game time. Just inane.

Yes, yes, there are other ways to get the MP. But sometimes it is a choice of 2 evils. Many of the Insights and Strongboxes are in locations that I can’t reach (specifically me, not talking about anybody else) without certain Masteries but I need MP to unlock them, etc.

Djinn.9245:

sorudo.9054:

a story i can’t complete because i need X mastery unlocked is exactly the reason why it’s flawed, i never heard of a single game or book that makes you do something completely unrelated to the story just to continue the story.

This is the issue I have with Mastery Points. Let’s stop doing the HoT story so I can go play some arcade games to get the MP I need to continue the story. And of course the Adventures are locked behind the Meta, so you either wait or give up and go do something else that doesn’t waste your game time. Just inane.

Yes, yes, there are other ways to get the MP. But sometimes it is a choice of 2 evils. Many of the Insights and Strongboxes are in locations that I can’t reach (specifically me, not talking about anybody else) without certain Masteries but I need MP to unlock them, etc.

You need exactly six mastery points to do the hot story. You can get six mastery points without EVER doing anything like an arcade game.

You get one mastery point for finishing the first story. It requires you train basic gliding. That means the mastery point you get is the mastery point you use. You need five more. There are more than five mastery points marked on the first map that you can get just from communing with them. Two of those are very hard to get without advanced gliding, but you still have enough commune mastery points to get to on the very first map, VB, to get all the points you need to finish the entire HoT story. So what are these games you need to do to get mastery points.

What you’re saying is you can’t five five mastery points on a map to get. And considering you get one mastery point for each chapter, every time you do a chapter, you get another. Which means once you train gliding you’d have another mastery point just doing the next story, so you don’t even need to get all of them in the zone.

So tell me, how is it you can’t complete the story without doing an unrelated arcade game? It’s far more like just leveling up. Particularly if you’re following the story it tells you the next mastery you need.

Vayne.8563:

You need exactly six mastery points to do the hot story. You can get six mastery points without EVER doing anything like an arcade game.

You get one mastery point for finishing the first story. It requires you train basic gliding. That means the mastery point you get is the mastery point you use. You need five more. There are more than five mastery points marked on the first map that you can get just from communing with them.

The problem with this is: you don’t know any of this, if you just started HoT. It’s not self-documented, it’s not intuitive. You just spend your available mastery points randomly. You don’t know which points are easy to get and which are impossible to reach with basic masteries.

They are all spent, when you realize for what you should have spent them in the first place. Which is probably halfway through the story. But now it’s too late to ask or to look into game documentation: the easy-to-get points are spent. Now you have to go after the tedious points to just make up for your wrong decisions.

I, for example, leveled all masteries evenly, because the first levels required the least XP and the least mastery points. My reasoning was to get the most levels with the least effort. That the first levels are the most important. And that the last levels of a mastery was only for the 24/7 power gamers as time sink. I was completely wrong. But I realized this only when it was too late and I was required to retrieve the harder mastery points. How I struggled to get them. It made me not visit HoT any more for perhaps a year.

Usually, that is the departure from the game for a player. I am still around only because I have real life friends in my guild I wanted to continue to play with, so I returned after a 2 month pause, and I returned to play mainly Fractals, not HoT.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

You need exactly six mastery points to do the hot story. You can get six mastery points without EVER doing anything like an arcade game.

You get one mastery point for finishing the first story. It requires you train basic gliding. That means the mastery point you get is the mastery point you use. You need five more. There are more than five mastery points marked on the first map that you can get just from communing with them.

The problem with this is: you don’t know any of this, if you just started HoT. It’s not self-documented, it’s not intuitive. You just spend your available mastery points randomly. You don’t know which points are easy to get and which are impossible to reach with basic masteries.

They are all spent, when you realize for what you should have spent them in the first place. Which is probably halfway through the story. But now it’s too late to ask or to look into game documentation: the easy-to-get points are spent. Now you have to go after the tedious points to just make up for your wrong decisions.

I, for example, leveled all masteries evenly, because the first levels required the least XP and the least mastery points. My reasoning was to get the most levels with the least effort. That the first levels are the most important. And that the last levels of a mastery was only for the 24/7 power gamers as time sink. I was completely wrong. But I realized this only when it was too late and I was required to retrieve the harder mastery points. How I struggled to get them. It made me not visit HoT any more for perhaps a year.

Usually, that is the departure from the game for a player. I am still around only because I have real life friends in my guild I wanted to continue to play with, so I returned after a 2 month pause, and I returned to play mainly Fractals, not HoT.

If you start out HOT, and you don’t know anything at all, and the only thing you do is follow the story, the story itself tells you what you to do, directly. First it tells you you need to level gliding. Then it tells you you need to level jumping mushrooms. There’s zero guesswork unless you don’t bother to read the quest tracker.

And I’m talking about the minimal number of points here. Not the maximum. You need 6 points one of which you get from the story (and you get others from the story along the way). There are a couple of dozen points in each zone.

Let’s pretend someone doesn’t have a guild, refuses to look on the forums or the wiki or dulfy, doesn’t have any friends in game to ask, and doesn’t pay attention to the story… that person probably can get the four easy lock boxes which are easy to get,. and get 4 points just from those.

Yes, I get the description of what to do is not in your face. Which doesn’t make it that much of a problem even if you choose wrong.

The fact that each successive mastery requires more and more points would stop someone who can’t get points from getting higher masteries anyway. Most likely those people would end up going for the 1 point stuff, and with the exception of updraft, that’s pretty much what you need, the one point stuff.

Seriously this is a non-issue.

Edit: Even what you did, leveling all masteries evenly would have worked out to get you the masteries you needed for the story. Maybe not in the right order, but it doesn’t take a long time to train 5 masteries.

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

I never said easy or clear. I said that what you did worked out for what you needed for the story. Period. That’s a fact. If you did the low level stuff first, the easiest to get stuff, which is what a lot of people did, then you did what you needed to do to get through the story.

How would you know? Because when you try to get through the story it tells you what you need and you’d probably do that at that time.

There are not “so many” threads complaining about this. We know what complaints are like. We see them.

There were a TON of complaints that the hero points required for unlocking your elite spec was too high and Anet changed it because of that response. There was a response that was huge about having poison lore as necessary for the story and Anet removed it almost immediately.

I’ve seen a tiny handful of threads complaining about this. I’ve also seen threads complaining about not having mounts, in much larger quantity than this.

The fact is, a few people on the forums saying this doesn’t make this a tidal wave of complaints.

It’s no more or less confusing than the rest of the game. This game has always been terrible at messaging and teaching people how to play it from day one. It’s no easier to figure out how to trait for most new players. Combo fields and break bars are barely mentioned anywhere at all. Those are real problems.

I’m not sure why the messaging in general is so bad in this game, over all, but this particular complaint, because the required masteries are so low, is a non-issue. Even if you spent all your points leveling up gliding all the way, you’d only need like 3 more points do everything else you needed for the story.

And I don’t believe I’ve met anyone who leveled nuhoch all the way up before they leveled gliding.

IndigoSundown.5419:

sorudo.9054:

a story i can’t complete because i need X mastery unlocked is exactly the reason why it’s flawed, i never heard of a single game or book that makes you do something completely unrelated to the story just to continue the story.

Did you play the original GW NIghtfall as an Elonian character? When you get to the story quest “And a Hero Shall Lead Them,” Elonian characters need to attain the General Rank in the Sunspear Rank Title Track to qualify to continue the story. Depending on what you did prior to that point in the game, that might or might not be more involved than getting a particular Mastery.

knowing that the grind for the rank is extremely easy and the sunspeer title is the easiest of the entire game (i would know, i maxed it), you are comparing a meter with a kilometer.
and yes, i played it from the get go and even have the CE, GW1 however is penuts in comparison.

The biggest problem with mastery system, that kinda went away when Season 3 started rolling, but will be reintroduced in next expansion, is the fact that it’s map-locked.

When HoT released, i was still fairly new player, and had a lot of base game to explore. However, all of core Tyria, with all of its dungeons, all of world bosses and entire fractal system – yeah, you guessed it, was only giving XP to 3 small mastery tracks, with none of them being useful to me like, at all. The only reason I even leveled kitten things was because i was farming Tequatl at the time.

Magus Falls had many more masteries, and they were much cooler and more useful – needed to get profession weaponry and finish explorations. However, the only way to get those masteries was to grind same 4 maps, over and over and over again, without being able to effectively traverse them in the beginning. At some point I started to kittening hate those maps because of how overdone they were at this point – with no end to it in sight.

Untie mastery from regions. Allow us to level expansion specific masteries in core regions and in other expansions. Otherwise, when new expansion lands, it will be same kitten all over again.

Vayne.8563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

I never said easy or clear. I said that what you did worked out for what you needed for the story. Period. That’s a fact. If you did the low level stuff first, the easiest to get stuff, which is what a lot of people did, then you did what you needed to do to get through the story.

How would you know? Because when you try to get through the story it tells you what you need and you’d probably do that at that time.

There are not “so many” threads complaining about this. We know what complaints are like. We see them.

There were a TON of complaints that the hero points required for unlocking your elite spec was too high and Anet changed it because of that response. There was a response that was huge about having poison lore as necessary for the story and Anet removed it almost immediately.

I’ve seen a tiny handful of threads complaining about this. I’ve also seen threads complaining about not having mounts, in much larger quantity than this.

The fact is, a few people on the forums saying this doesn’t make this a tidal wave of complaints.

It’s no more or less confusing than the rest of the game. This game has always been terrible at messaging and teaching people how to play it from day one. It’s no easier to figure out how to trait for most new players. Combo fields and break bars are barely mentioned anywhere at all. Those are real problems.

I’m not sure why the messaging in general is so bad in this game, over all, but this particular complaint, because the required masteries are so low, is a non-issue. Even if you spent all your points leveling up gliding all the way, you’d only need like 3 more points do everything else you needed for the story.

And I don’t believe I’ve met anyone who leveled nuhoch all the way up before they leveled gliding.

Players who didn’t start the story first, but explored first would miss the hints the story gives as to the best order to unlock the masteries to traverse the HoT maps.

As for me, I’ve got the mastery points, I don’t have the experience. Because I’ve been focused on finishing up my precursor for Meteorlogicus which I’ve been doing via the collections and therefore spending most of my time in core Tyria which doesn’t progress the mastery experience bar for the HoT masteries. Luckily, I’ve got alts and story steps do give decent amount of experience and the mastery experience bars are account wide. So when I do feel like continuing the story on my main, I’ve got characters I can push through the story.

I don’t hate the system, but I do see the flaws in the system. It’s best suited to players who want to do the story first or explore as they do the story. It’s troublesome for players who prefer to do exploration first and then the story.

It would have been made a little easier if they allowed for the experience to be earned in any region but still kept the points to region specific.

Each story step gives you a mastery point, so when the story tells you you need a mastery, it’s usually just given you the mastery point you need to unlock it. The only problem I could see there is the step that requires updraft mastery, as that requires two points. In that case, if you’ve been brashly spending all your points in other trees, you might have an issue… but it should also only take finding one more point to resolve it.

Seera.5916:

I don’t hate the system, but I do see the flaws in the system. It’s best suited to players who want to do the story first or explore as they do the story. It’s troublesome for players who prefer to do exploration first and then the story.

Which is also why I hated the LS3 zones being story locked. I play GW2 as the ‘play your way’ system it was marketed as and prefer to do the story whenever, which is never on patch day. I look up on the wiki and such for the information I need when they do stuff like this but it makes the story pretty pointless rather than being something I have yet to do and have no idea about.

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

to put it another way, for the first 10-20 hours of gameplay you will be playing the first couple of zones in HOT either doing the quest lines or events, or exploring, or mini games. that first 10-20 hours of game play nearly 2 years ago give acccess to any masteries you want.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

No such thing as new players, huh? lol

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

Solid point. I think that a good counterpoint might be that we should, politely, encourage new players to hold off on jumping into endgame content while they are learning to play the game. A game whose endgame content is not a struggle for people new to the game is going to have problems providing any challenge at all to people who have been playing for a while.

Of course some new to gw2 players are very experienced mmo players and will become skilled here very quickly.

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

Solid point. I think that a good counterpoint might be that we should, politely, encourage new players to hold off on jumping into endgame content while they are learning to play the game. A game whose endgame content is not a struggle for people new to the game is going to have problems providing any challenge at all to people who have been playing for a while.

Of course some new to gw2 players are very experienced mmo players and will become skilled here very quickly.

HoT is not “end game” content any more than any level 80 zone is “end game” content. If Anet would like to make it “end game” content they will have to find a way to communicate that in-game so that everyone is clearly informed.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

Solid point. I think that a good counterpoint might be that we should, politely, encourage new players to hold off on jumping into endgame content while they are learning to play the game. A game whose endgame content is not a struggle for people new to the game is going to have problems providing any challenge at all to people who have been playing for a while.

Of course some new to gw2 players are very experienced mmo players and will become skilled here very quickly.

HoT is not “end game” content any more than any level 80 zone is “end game” content. If Anet would like to make it “end game” content they will have to find a way to communicate that in-game so that everyone is clearly informed.

ANet does not communicate that stuff in game. Most developers don’t. Blizzard never told me that max level dungeons were endgame content. It was just assumed.

Around launch, Anet was saying, “The whole game is endgame.” Technically, that would mean that HoT is most certainly endgame because it is part of the whole game. However, Ashen was in all likelihood referring to endgame content to mean max level content, especially in an area where ANet had announced their intent to make the persistent zone content more challenging.

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs. They have to write the blogs as advertising anyway, and having to then put the same information into the game itself would be redundant. Your expectation may even be reasonable, it just isn’t industry standard.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

Solid point. I think that a good counterpoint might be that we should, politely, encourage new players to hold off on jumping into endgame content while they are learning to play the game. A game whose endgame content is not a struggle for people new to the game is going to have problems providing any challenge at all to people who have been playing for a while.

Of course some new to gw2 players are very experienced mmo players and will become skilled here very quickly.

HoT is not “end game” content any more than any level 80 zone is “end game” content. If Anet would like to make it “end game” content they will have to find a way to communicate that in-game so that everyone is clearly informed.

ANet does not communicate that stuff in game. Most developers don’t. Blizzard never told me that max level dungeons were endgame content. It was just assumed.

One GW2 level 80 zone is not differentiated from another level 80 zone except once you start playing them.

A “dungeon” in an open-world game is, by definition, differentiated from open-world content. A “max level” dungeon would then be the most difficult of the dungeons.

If all GW2 level 80 (“max level”) zones were of equivalent difficulty, there would be no confusion.

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

I agree. There are those people who won’t read and just want to play and those people will never really make it in the end game of ANY MMO.

Even in Guild Wars 1, without having one of the meta builds for Underworld no one was going to let you into their pug group. Sabway, I-way whatever the flavor of the month was, you had to have it, which meant you had to have a clue, usually by going to PVX-wiki.com if nothing else.

The same is true here. As to HoT not being any more end game than the rest of the game, Anet was clear that HOT was harder from the outset, and if that wasn’t enough, there was a beta and people were saying it.

Before you buy any product you should do a modicum of research. If you don’t, that’s on you.

I understood before HoT launched that it was meant to be more difficult end game content. Anyone who doesn’t know that isn’t paying attention and those same people would suffer in the end game of any MMO.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

I agree. There are those people who won’t read and just want to play and those people will never really make it in the end game of ANY MMO.

Even in Guild Wars 1, without having one of the meta builds for Underworld no one was going to let you into their pug group. Sabway, I-way whatever the flavor of the month was, you had to have it, which meant you had to have a clue, usually by going to PVX-wiki.com if nothing else.

The same is true here. As to HoT not being any more end game than the rest of the game, Anet was clear that HOT was harder from the outset, and if that wasn’t enough, there was a beta and people were saying it.

Before you buy any product you should do a modicum of research. If you don’t, that’s on you.

I understood before HoT launched that it was meant to be more difficult end game content. Anyone who doesn’t know that isn’t paying attention and those same people would suffer in the end game of any MMO.

“End Game” in every MMO I know about is differentiated from regular content by barriers to entry. End Game is usually raids or dungeons which require multiple people. Sometimes it is gated by other requirements. It is laughable for ANYONE to insist that HoT is “end game” content.

Other MMOs also have progressive open world zones. However, their zones are generally balanced so that all level 30 zones are of similar difficulty, etc. GW2 is the only MMO I know that has level 80 zones that are WILDLY more difficult than other level 80 zones. This means that people used to playing MMOs will not (and did not) expect the huge disparity of HoT zones. This is why they should have had a better description when purchasing HoT and an in-game warning as well.

It’s like going into a restaurant that serves some food that is spicy (lvl 80). All the food that is spicy is noted by a little pepper next to the name (lvl 80 label). You’ve eaten at this restaurant before, so you know you like the level of spice in their food. But you order a new dish and put a bite in your mouth and it burns your mouth off. Now there is a description at the bottom of the menu in fine print that this dish is much spicier than the rest of the dishes on the menu, but you didn’t go out of your way to look for it because you naturally assumed that a spicy dish would be of the same level of spiciness as the others in the menu.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

I agree. There are those people who won’t read and just want to play and those people will never really make it in the end game of ANY MMO.

Even in Guild Wars 1, without having one of the meta builds for Underworld no one was going to let you into their pug group. Sabway, I-way whatever the flavor of the month was, you had to have it, which meant you had to have a clue, usually by going to PVX-wiki.com if nothing else.

The same is true here. As to HoT not being any more end game than the rest of the game, Anet was clear that HOT was harder from the outset, and if that wasn’t enough, there was a beta and people were saying it.

Before you buy any product you should do a modicum of research. If you don’t, that’s on you.

I understood before HoT launched that it was meant to be more difficult end game content. Anyone who doesn’t know that isn’t paying attention and those same people would suffer in the end game of any MMO.

“End Game” in every MMO I know about is differentiated from regular content by barriers to entry. End Game is usually raids or dungeons which require multiple people. Sometimes it is gated by other requirements. It is laughable for ANYONE to insist that HoT is “end game” content.

Other MMOs also have progressive open world zones. However, their zones are generally balanced so that all level 30 zones are of similar difficulty, etc. GW2 is the only MMO I know that has level 80 zones that are WILDLY more difficult than other level 80 zones. This means that people used to playing MMOs will not (and did not) expect the huge disparity of HoT zones. This is why they should have had a better description when purchasing HoT and an in-game warning as well.

It’s like going into a restaurant that serves some food that is spicy (lvl 80). All the food that is spicy is noted by a little pepper next to the name (lvl 80 label). You’ve eaten at this restaurant before, so you know you like the level of spice in their food. But you order a new dish and put a bite in your mouth and it burns your mouth off. Now there is a description at the bottom of the menu in fine print that this dish is much spicier than the rest of the dishes on the menu, but you didn’t go out of your way to look for it because you naturally assumed that a spicy dish would be of the same level of spiciness as the others in the menu.

I love how you use words like laughable to try to denigrade people’s opinions. HoT is end game, because legendary weapons are end game and you have to play HOT to make hot legendaries. This isn’t most MMOs. This MMO didn’t even launch with raids.

HoT IS end game for the open world. Something this game has always focused on…unlike other MMOs.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

I agree. There are those people who won’t read and just want to play and those people will never really make it in the end game of ANY MMO.

Even in Guild Wars 1, without having one of the meta builds for Underworld no one was going to let you into their pug group. Sabway, I-way whatever the flavor of the month was, you had to have it, which meant you had to have a clue, usually by going to PVX-wiki.com if nothing else.

The same is true here. As to HoT not being any more end game than the rest of the game, Anet was clear that HOT was harder from the outset, and if that wasn’t enough, there was a beta and people were saying it.

Before you buy any product you should do a modicum of research. If you don’t, that’s on you.

I understood before HoT launched that it was meant to be more difficult end game content. Anyone who doesn’t know that isn’t paying attention and those same people would suffer in the end game of any MMO.

“End Game” in every MMO I know about is differentiated from regular content by barriers to entry. End Game is usually raids or dungeons which require multiple people. Sometimes it is gated by other requirements. It is laughable for ANYONE to insist that HoT is “end game” content.

Other MMOs also have progressive open world zones. However, their zones are generally balanced so that all level 30 zones are of similar difficulty, etc. GW2 is the only MMO I know that has level 80 zones that are WILDLY more difficult than other level 80 zones. This means that people used to playing MMOs will not (and did not) expect the huge disparity of HoT zones. This is why they should have had a better description when purchasing HoT and an in-game warning as well.

It’s like going into a restaurant that serves some food that is spicy (lvl 80). All the food that is spicy is noted by a little pepper next to the name (lvl 80 label). You’ve eaten at this restaurant before, so you know you like the level of spice in their food. But you order a new dish and put a bite in your mouth and it burns your mouth off. Now there is a description at the bottom of the menu in fine print that this dish is much spicier than the rest of the dishes on the menu, but you didn’t go out of your way to look for it because you naturally assumed that a spicy dish would be of the same level of spiciness as the others in the menu.

I love how you use words like laughable to try to denigrade people’s opinions. HoT is end game, because legendary weapons are end game and you have to play HOT to make hot legendaries. This isn’t most MMOs. This MMO didn’t even launch with raids.

HoT IS end game for the open world. Something this game has always focused on…unlike other MMOs.

If HoT is end game why are they making an expansion? That doesn’t seem accurate to me, unless you are thinking the expansion will stay in the same area, even then that would suggest HoT wasn’t the end.

while i see your point that it is a way to have a “continues grind for x,y,z” while not being a “powercreeper”, the negative of the grind itself is the same as with any other “mindless forced grind”. as it makes you feel you “HAVE to grind” to be able to play and enjoy the game as you like.
the point of horizontal progression systems is to eliminated that negative feeling of “you have to grind for x hours or you are either handicapped stats wise or you cannot access feature y”.

GW2 was the only mmorpg on the market (reasonably popular one at least) which didn’t make you feel you “HAD” to do something after the first 1-2 weeks of playing. it was a really nice enjoyment to feel you could play as you wanted without the constant min/max monkey jumping your back.

while i think they improved the story elements a lot (and i am enjoying it after returning, especially the amount of voice acting), i do feel with the “stats increase of legendaries, and the ascended gear” there is a reasonable amount of “grind” already added.
adding even more by forcing you to grind a specific area to gain the “points” to be able to use “basic” movement in that area to explore with, is pushing it towards a wrong direction(although by baby steps, so no panic over it hehe
although as a returning player i find it a little bit discouraging to see how long i will need to “grind” before i can just relax and enjoy doing stuff i come across on the map ^^
(i will admit the amount of time i need to use seems minor, but coming from BDO i almost get a sick feeling when there is stuff i feel i “Need” to do to be able to fully enjoy hehe. but in reality i doubt it is that bad, think in 1 week or so i will have everything needed mastery wise by casual play)

when all that is said: NO ONE yet have found a really good way to do horizontal progression in mmo’s GW2 is the closest we have gotten to it.

(and personally bc of how well its done i would never have taken a long break from GW2 if it wasn’t for the extreme slowdown of movement in combat and the downing system. both systems something i despise and believe to force every build towards the same brawler setup while making combat feel less engaging.)

edit:
in the end it all comes down to how far they push it. if it is minor grind time it is all fine and just adds a little extra incentive to do some specific stuff for a hours over a week or so to get the needed stuff, like gaining skills early on, or maybe like getting your full gear before ascended gear now (no idea how long it takes to get now, but when it was introduced it actually took quite a lot of grind to get full ascended accessories; too much time for Stats imho.)

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Vayne.8563:

I love how you use words like laughable to try to denigrade people’s opinions. HoT is end game, because legendary weapons are end game and you have to play HOT to make hot legendaries. This isn’t most MMOs. This MMO didn’t even launch with raids.

HoT IS end game for the open world. Something this game has always focused on…unlike other MMOs.

If HoT is end game why are they making an expansion? That doesn’t seem accurate to me, unless you are thinking the expansion will stay in the same area, even then that would suggest HoT wasn’t the end.

There are multiple definitions for MMO endgame. One is, “The hardest content in the game.” The other is, “The portion of the game that becomes relevant after getting to the highest level attainable.” Neither definition implies that “endgame content” means it’s the last content the game will have. In most MMO’s, prior content is no longer considered endgame when a new expansion hits, because expansions usually include level cap raises. GW2 HoT did not include a level cap raise, and I will be surprised if the new XPac does. If so, HoT will still be endgame by the second definition. Whether it will be by the first remains to be seen.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

I agree. There are those people who won’t read and just want to play and those people will never really make it in the end game of ANY MMO.

Even in Guild Wars 1, without having one of the meta builds for Underworld no one was going to let you into their pug group. Sabway, I-way whatever the flavor of the month was, you had to have it, which meant you had to have a clue, usually by going to PVX-wiki.com if nothing else.

The same is true here. As to HoT not being any more end game than the rest of the game, Anet was clear that HOT was harder from the outset, and if that wasn’t enough, there was a beta and people were saying it.

Before you buy any product you should do a modicum of research. If you don’t, that’s on you.

I understood before HoT launched that it was meant to be more difficult end game content. Anyone who doesn’t know that isn’t paying attention and those same people would suffer in the end game of any MMO.

“End Game” in every MMO I know about is differentiated from regular content by barriers to entry. End Game is usually raids or dungeons which require multiple people. Sometimes it is gated by other requirements. It is laughable for ANYONE to insist that HoT is “end game” content.

Other MMOs also have progressive open world zones. However, their zones are generally balanced so that all level 30 zones are of similar difficulty, etc. GW2 is the only MMO I know that has level 80 zones that are WILDLY more difficult than other level 80 zones. This means that people used to playing MMOs will not (and did not) expect the huge disparity of HoT zones. This is why they should have had a better description when purchasing HoT and an in-game warning as well.

It’s like going into a restaurant that serves some food that is spicy (lvl 80). All the food that is spicy is noted by a little pepper next to the name (lvl 80 label). You’ve eaten at this restaurant before, so you know you like the level of spice in their food. But you order a new dish and put a bite in your mouth and it burns your mouth off. Now there is a description at the bottom of the menu in fine print that this dish is much spicier than the rest of the dishes on the menu, but you didn’t go out of your way to look for it because you naturally assumed that a spicy dish would be of the same level of spiciness as the others in the menu.

I love how you use words like laughable to try to denigrade people’s opinions. HoT is end game, because legendary weapons are end game and you have to play HOT to make hot legendaries. This isn’t most MMOs. This MMO didn’t even launch with raids.

HoT IS end game for the open world. Something this game has always focused on…unlike other MMOs.

Why do you say that Legendaries are “end game”? And what about non-HoT Legendaries? No “end game” is required for those…

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

Solid point. I think that a good counterpoint might be that we should, politely, encourage new players to hold off on jumping into endgame content while they are learning to play the game. A game whose endgame content is not a struggle for people new to the game is going to have problems providing any challenge at all to people who have been playing for a while.

Of course some new to gw2 players are very experienced mmo players and will become skilled here very quickly.

HoT is not “end game” content any more than any level 80 zone is “end game” content. If Anet would like to make it “end game” content they will have to find a way to communicate that in-game so that everyone is clearly informed.

HoT was marketed as max level content for players who were ready for increased challenge over the core game. It fits gw2’s endgame definition pretty well. Sure we have instanced stuff too, but open world has always been described as part of this game’s approach to endgame.

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

Solid point. I think that a good counterpoint might be that we should, politely, encourage new players to hold off on jumping into endgame content while they are learning to play the game. A game whose endgame content is not a struggle for people new to the game is going to have problems providing any challenge at all to people who have been playing for a while.

Of course some new to gw2 players are very experienced mmo players and will become skilled here very quickly.

HoT is not “end game” content any more than any level 80 zone is “end game” content. If Anet would like to make it “end game” content they will have to find a way to communicate that in-game so that everyone is clearly informed.

HoT was marketed as max level content for players who were ready for increased challenge over the core game. It fits gw2’s endgame definition pretty well. Sure we have instanced stuff too, but open world has always been described as part of this game’s approach to endgame.

Apparently I didn’t see that “marketing”, nor any comments regarding open world being part of end game.

In every MMO I can think of, end game isn’t simply “the highest level zone” in the open world. It is a part of the game that you must approach with deliberation – it requires some kind of progression, organization, and planning. If Anet truly has stated that open world = “end game” in GW2, that would be very strange indeed.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

Solid point. I think that a good counterpoint might be that we should, politely, encourage new players to hold off on jumping into endgame content while they are learning to play the game. A game whose endgame content is not a struggle for people new to the game is going to have problems providing any challenge at all to people who have been playing for a while.

Of course some new to gw2 players are very experienced mmo players and will become skilled here very quickly.

HoT is not “end game” content any more than any level 80 zone is “end game” content. If Anet would like to make it “end game” content they will have to find a way to communicate that in-game so that everyone is clearly informed.

HoT was marketed as max level content for players who were ready for increased challenge over the core game. It fits gw2’s endgame definition pretty well. Sure we have instanced stuff too, but open world has always been described as part of this game’s approach to endgame.

Apparently I didn’t see that “marketing”, nor any comments regarding open world being part of end game.

In every MMO I can think of, end game isn’t simply “the highest level zone” in the open world. It is a part of the game that you must approach with deliberation – it requires some kind of progression, organization, and planning. If Anet truly has stated that open world = “end game” in GW2, that would be very strange indeed.

This isnt every other MMO, or any MMO I can think of.

A complaint that some have voiced about HoT is that it requires some of that deliberation you mention. More care on the player’s part than is the case in core maps.

Sorry, but my search fu is limited when forumizing from my phone, but comments to the effect of the entire game being endgame were tossed around from early on precisely because ANet didnt want to be exactly like every other MMO.

Disclaimer: I am not saying that open world is a good approach, or bad for that matter, merely that it is part of Anet’s approach for this game.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

You can try to hold Anet to your standards as to what constitutes an announcement. However, most developers expect fans to read their blogs.

Do they? I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself. Perhaps you can tell me the source of your information?

The fact that developers in every game I’ve ever played put information about the game into blogs, interviews and forum posts which never makes it into the game. That’s about as specific as your “facts,” so if you want a list of games you’re going to have to pony up your info. By the way, if you are all aggrieved because GW2 did not in game tell you what to expect from HoT, does that mean you read developer statements for other games but not this one? In other words, just where did you get, “I have seen from various MMO developers that only around 10% of a game population regularly reads information outside the game itself?”

People pick and choose how much they want to read about any subject. As far as games go, some people just want to play, and then there are various levels of “fan” that want additional information besides what is in the game. I’m pretty sure that the professionals at Anet know this and don’t think that every player is going to read their blog.

I could go find quotes regarding the percentage of players that read additional material, but since you are not concerned enough to bother to support your claim, neither am I to that extent. However I will support it by one anecdote I know by heart: I almost never read the GW2 blogs. I didn’t read the one about HoT you are referencing. And I am one of the more active players on the forums.

I agree. There are those people who won’t read and just want to play and those people will never really make it in the end game of ANY MMO.

Even in Guild Wars 1, without having one of the meta builds for Underworld no one was going to let you into their pug group. Sabway, I-way whatever the flavor of the month was, you had to have it, which meant you had to have a clue, usually by going to PVX-wiki.com if nothing else.

The same is true here. As to HoT not being any more end game than the rest of the game, Anet was clear that HOT was harder from the outset, and if that wasn’t enough, there was a beta and people were saying it.

Before you buy any product you should do a modicum of research. If you don’t, that’s on you.

I understood before HoT launched that it was meant to be more difficult end game content. Anyone who doesn’t know that isn’t paying attention and those same people would suffer in the end game of any MMO.

“End Game” in every MMO I know about is differentiated from regular content by barriers to entry. End Game is usually raids or dungeons which require multiple people. Sometimes it is gated by other requirements. It is laughable for ANYONE to insist that HoT is “end game” content.

Other MMOs also have progressive open world zones. However, their zones are generally balanced so that all level 30 zones are of similar difficulty, etc. GW2 is the only MMO I know that has level 80 zones that are WILDLY more difficult than other level 80 zones. This means that people used to playing MMOs will not (and did not) expect the huge disparity of HoT zones. This is why they should have had a better description when purchasing HoT and an in-game warning as well.

It’s like going into a restaurant that serves some food that is spicy (lvl 80). All the food that is spicy is noted by a little pepper next to the name (lvl 80 label). You’ve eaten at this restaurant before, so you know you like the level of spice in their food. But you order a new dish and put a bite in your mouth and it burns your mouth off. Now there is a description at the bottom of the menu in fine print that this dish is much spicier than the rest of the dishes on the menu, but you didn’t go out of your way to look for it because you naturally assumed that a spicy dish would be of the same level of spiciness as the others in the menu.

I love how you use words like laughable to try to denigrade people’s opinions. HoT is end game, because legendary weapons are end game and you have to play HOT to make hot legendaries. This isn’t most MMOs. This MMO didn’t even launch with raids.

HoT IS end game for the open world. Something this game has always focused on…unlike other MMOs.

If HoT is end game why are they making an expansion? That doesn’t seem accurate to me, unless you are thinking the expansion will stay in the same area, even then that would suggest HoT wasn’t the end.

Every game has end game and still makes expansions. End game is more or less a list of things you can do once you level, and that’s all it is. In this game there are more viable end games than most other games, but if you look back at threads about it dating years, most people will tell you there’s a lot you can do at end game and then they list those things.

HoT was designed to be what you do at max level, thus it is end game by definition.

Djinn.9245:

Why do you say that Legendaries are “end game”? And what about non-HoT Legendaries? No “end game” is required for those…

That’s not true. Dungeons were part of the original end game and non-hot legendaries did require 9 dungeon runs at launch to get them. In addition when you ask about what you can do after level 80 (which is what most people see as the definition of end game anyway), you’ll see making a legendary listed.

And in it’s original format, don’t forget you had to play WvW including completing all 4 WvW zones to get a core legendary. Sure you could buy one from the TP, which meant farming gold, which is something considered end game in this game, ie, something you can do at 80, after you’ve leveled.

There’s no magical definition of end game that says it’s just dungeons and raids, even though in SOME games, people say that is end game. However, in this game, the idea of the entire game is end game has been around for years. Anet has said it and I’m sure you’ve heard it.

It’s meant to say that this game is different from most games and the things you do while leveling are the things you continue to do after level 80, so obviously Anet doesn’t believe that raids and fractals are the only PvE end game.

I mean it’s clear to me that Dragon Stand was designed as a open world raid anyway. And if you remember how hard TD was at launch, before they toned it down, that was an open world raid as well. Triple Trouble is pretty much an open world raid.

Instanced content in other games is predominantly how you can get gear in the game with the best stats. But stats are easier to get in this game, so the emphasis is on getting the most desirable skins. Here even achievement hunting would have to be considered end game because it’s the only way to get pinnacle weapons and a complete set of radiant or hellfire.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Seera.5916:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Silmar Alech.4305:

If it is so easy and clear as you write, well, why do threads like these constantly pop up since HoT release, where people write about their problems, which are all the same since release? For you it might all be easy and clear, but for (too) many people it seems not, and that fact is proved by the pure existence of these threads. A non-issue would generate none of these forum threads.
Don’t look at the design itself, look at the people how they deal with the design. They clearly have their problems with it.

you know HOT came out nearly 2 years ago right? People saying they are still struggling after nearly 2 years of gameplay are either being disingenuous or are going to struggle with every game known to man. People don’t post for non issues, that’s why the vast majority don’t complain about the difficulty of HOT, because actually its not really a difficult game. Dark Souls is a difficult game, or a tightly tuned raid is difficult, even some GW1 elite zones, but GW2 lol, no.

Or they could be new to the game and not a veteran who was around before HoT launched. Given the level 80 boost, a good portion may enter HoT areas within a short time frame of joining the game because they want the elite spec.

Solid point. I think that a good counterpoint might be that we should, politely, encourage new players to hold off on jumping into endgame content while they are learning to play the game. A game whose endgame content is not a struggle for people new to the game is going to have problems providing any challenge at all to people who have been playing for a while.

Of course some new to gw2 players are very experienced mmo players and will become skilled here very quickly.

HoT is not “end game” content any more than any level 80 zone is “end game” content. If Anet would like to make it “end game” content they will have to find a way to communicate that in-game so that everyone is clearly informed.

HoT was marketed as max level content for players who were ready for increased challenge over the core game. It fits gw2’s endgame definition pretty well. Sure we have instanced stuff too, but open world has always been described as part of this game’s approach to endgame.

Apparently I didn’t see that “marketing”, nor any comments regarding open world being part of end game.

In every MMO I can think of, end game isn’t simply “the highest level zone” in the open world. It is a part of the game that you must approach with deliberation – it requires some kind of progression, organization, and planning. If Anet truly has stated that open world = “end game” in GW2, that would be very strange indeed.

Anet said many times the entire game is end game, which they explained to mean that you do the same thing at end game as you do when leveling. This is what was said, and I’ll paraphrase it because I wouldn’t begin to know where to look for the specific quote.

In most games, you play the game you get up to max level and the entire game changes. You were doing one thing, and then now you’re doing something else. Here, when you get to max level you continue to do the same sorts of things you enjoyed while leveling.

Now keep in mind the people who said this designed Orr, which was later nerfed, and they designed Southsun which is much harder than the core game. But they still have dynamic events.

How is Orr, part of the original end game as per the devs, different from the rest of the world? No hearts. The events there were meant to be part of the end game.

Anet advertised this game as a living breathing world. Clearly they didn’t mean us to be squirreled away in instances as part of their end game.

I’m not sure why anyone who proports to be a fan of this game could have some how missed that far more time was spend talking about the open world than dungeons, or raids, which didn’t even exist.

Orr was considered end game, because it was challenging open world content. Anet has talked about Orr as being part of the original end game. Not just because it was the highest level map. But because the focus of this game is dynamic events.

Keep in mind in most games, you have far fewer repeatable quests, because quests are just for leveling.

That’s simply not true here.

kdaddy.5431:

GW2 core also had 33 dungeons when it released.

What?! There were more dungeons earlier and they were all canned??? Nooooo! This is the first time I am hearing about this.

(Note: Even though I purchased the game at release in 2012, I didn’t really start playing it until late 2015.)

kdaddy.5431:

But i agree with you, if the HOT we have right now is what we got when released i would not have any negative comments other then simple preferences.

Errr… today’s HoT is no different than back when it came out. What are you referring to exactly?

Ashantara.8731:

kdaddy.5431:

GW2 core also had 33 dungeons when it released.

What?! There were more dungeons earlier and they were all canned??? Nooooo! This is the first time I am hearing about this.

(Note: Even though I purchased the game at release in 2012, I didn’t really start playing it until late 2015.)

kdaddy.5431:

But i agree with you, if the HOT we have right now is what we got when released i would not have any negative comments other then simple preferences.

Errr… today’s HoT is no different than back when it came out. What are you referring to exactly?

There was a big April patch, a year ago April. Changed HoT in many ways. Added veteran events for people who prefer to solo for example, in enough quantity to make a difference. Thinned out enemies. Changed some of the adventures to make it easier to get silver/gold. Changed some of the collections to need bronze instead of silver, decoupled day from night in TD, among other changes.

It was a pretty big deal.

Vayne.8563:

There was a big April patch, a year ago April. Changed HoT in many ways. Added veteran events for people who prefer to solo for example, in enough quantity to make a difference. Thinned out enemies. Changed some of the adventures to make it easier to get silver/gold. Changed some of the collections to need bronze instead of silver, decoupled day from night in TD, among other changes.

It was a pretty big deal.

Ooooh, thanks. As I was still leveling characters at the time (and wasn’t active in the community, nor reading the release notes), I completely missed out on this.

Ashantara.8731:

Vayne.8563:

There was a big April patch, a year ago April. Changed HoT in many ways. Added veteran events for people who prefer to solo for example, in enough quantity to make a difference. Thinned out enemies. Changed some of the adventures to make it easier to get silver/gold. Changed some of the collections to need bronze instead of silver, decoupled day from night in TD, among other changes.

It was a pretty big deal.

Ooooh, thanks. As I was still leveling characters at the time (and wasn’t active in the community, nor reading the release notes), I completely missed out on this.

Whatever complaints still exist about hot are a vast minority. Most people have moved and many who used to not be able to play HoT can play it now.

Ashantara.8731:

kdaddy.5431:

GW2 core also had 33 dungeons when it released.

What?! There were more dungeons earlier and they were all canned??? Nooooo! This is the first time I am hearing about this.

(Note: Even though I purchased the game at release in 2012, I didn’t really start playing it until late 2015.)

As far as I know, only one dungeon path was ever “canned”, and that was replaced by the Aetherpath. 33 dungeons would be the number you arrive at when you include every single path, including story paths. We still have 33.

Skittish.4539:

Ashantara.8731:

kdaddy.5431:

GW2 core also had 33 dungeons when it released.

What?! There were more dungeons earlier and they were all canned??? Nooooo! This is the first time I am hearing about this.

As far as I know, only one dungeon path was ever “canned”, and that was replaced by the Aetherpath. 33 dungeons would be the number you arrive at when you include every single path, including story paths. We still have 33.

Ahh, what a relief! The number almost gave me a heart attack.

Skittish.4539:

Ashantara.8731:

kdaddy.5431:

GW2 core also had 33 dungeons when it released.

What?! There were more dungeons earlier and they were all canned??? Nooooo! This is the first time I am hearing about this.

(Note: Even though I purchased the game at release in 2012, I didn’t really start playing it until late 2015.)

As far as I know, only one dungeon path was ever “canned”, and that was replaced by the Aetherpath. 33 dungeons would be the number you arrive at when you include every single path, including story paths. We still have 33.

Technically there was one dungeon path canned, but also the Aetherblade Dungeon and the Molten Facility only exist now as fractals and they’re somewhat different from the originals.

In addition there’s the Nightmare Tower which is more or less an open world dungeon.

Here’s the blog post from September 2012 about endgame

The Endgame reimagined

Essentially they described the end game for gw2 as large meta events, dungeons, obtaining Legendaries, world completion, etc…

Vayne.8563:

Anet said many times the entire game is end game, which they explained to mean that you do the same thing at end game as you do when leveling. This is what was said, and I’ll paraphrase it because I wouldn’t begin to know where to look for the specific quote.

I googled “GW2 endgame” and found this:

https://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/flameseeker-chronicles-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-endgame/

“ArenaNet doesn’t want to give us a game that completely and fundamentally changes once you reach endgame. If the team did that, it would mean that once you reach endgame, either you do not have the game you paid for in the first place or you do not have the game you paid for until you reach endgame. I don’t know about you, but neither of those options is appealing to me. I’ll take the entertainment I paid for right out of the gate, thank you!…

Jon Peters’ quote: "Endgame is such a dirty word. We want our game to be the endgame. We don’t like the idea of a game that changes when you hit max level…

In most games, you play the game you get up to max level and the entire game changes. You were doing one thing, and then now you’re doing something else. Here, when you get to max level you continue to do the same sorts of things you enjoyed while leveling."

I guess according to you and the others I’m responding to, endgame is another place that Anet did a complete 180 from their original intent for the game.

I am continuing, for the most part, to do the same sorts of things I enjoyed while leveling. Of course the mobs are more challenging than what I faced in Queensdale, but doing open world events, fighting mobs, gathering, and so on are pretty much what I did while leveling. The sorts of things haven’t changed completely and fundamentally, but there certainly has been some escalation of challenge…then again Orr was more challenging than Queensdale too…even if the sorts of things done there is fundamentally the same or very similar.

There are other things that were not present while leveling however…trying unsuccessfully to navigate a multi-tier map. Gliding. Jumping mushrooms. Those wallows and chutes, etc. Can’t say I like them that much. Actively dislike most of them.

Ashen.2907:

I am continuing, for the most part, to do the same sorts of things I enjoyed while leveling. Of course the mobs are more challenging than what I faced in Queensdale, but doing open world events, fighting mobs, gathering, and so on are pretty much what I did while leveling. The sorts of things haven’t changed completely and fundamentally, but there certainly has been some escalation of challenge…then again Orr was more challenging than Queensdale too…even if the sorts of things done there is fundamentally the same or very similar.

There are other things that were not present while leveling however…trying unsuccessfully to navigate a multi-tier map. Gliding. Jumping mushrooms. Those wallows and chutes, etc. Can’t say I like them that much. Actively dislike most of them.

In HoT I’m not doing the same things I did in core (“Queensdale” lol). In core I never had to worry about huge numbers of mobs with cc PLUS confusing maps PLUS continual group content. Interesting that given these MAJOR differences from core that you experience HoT exactly the same.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Anet said many times the entire game is end game, which they explained to mean that you do the same thing at end game as you do when leveling. This is what was said, and I’ll paraphrase it because I wouldn’t begin to know where to look for the specific quote.

I googled “GW2 endgame” and found this:

https://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/flameseeker-chronicles-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-endgame/

“ArenaNet doesn’t want to give us a game that completely and fundamentally changes once you reach endgame. If the team did that, it would mean that once you reach endgame, either you do not have the game you paid for in the first place or you do not have the game you paid for until you reach endgame. I don’t know about you, but neither of those options is appealing to me. I’ll take the entertainment I paid for right out of the gate, thank you!…

Jon Peters’ quote: "Endgame is such a dirty word. We want our game to be the endgame. We don’t like the idea of a game that changes when you hit max level…

In most games, you play the game you get up to max level and the entire game changes. You were doing one thing, and then now you’re doing something else. Here, when you get to max level you continue to do the same sorts of things you enjoyed while leveling."

I guess according to you and the others I’m responding to, endgame is another place that Anet did a complete 180 from their original intent for the game.

Actually its’ not true. Since this game launched with Orr, which casual people complained as too hard even back then, it’s exactly the game Anet promised. Orr was NEVER too hard. It’s just that some people couldn’t cope with the increase in difficulty from the day of launch. It wasn’t that Anet changed the game from launch to HoT. It’s that players that couldn’t keep up complained so much that Orr was changed, and for every player that liked the changes to Orr, I’m convinced another player disliked them because Orr, which had be interesting, difficult and challenging, became a karma/XP farm zone.

The fact is, people said the same things about Orr at launch as they did about HoT.

You believe that the game has changed from core, but core had to change to get to the game you’re crowing about. And I liked it less after that nerf, not more.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

I am continuing, for the most part, to do the same sorts of things I enjoyed while leveling. Of course the mobs are more challenging than what I faced in Queensdale, but doing open world events, fighting mobs, gathering, and so on are pretty much what I did while leveling. The sorts of things haven’t changed completely and fundamentally, but there certainly has been some escalation of challenge…then again Orr was more challenging than Queensdale too…even if the sorts of things done there is fundamentally the same or very similar.

There are other things that were not present while leveling however…trying unsuccessfully to navigate a multi-tier map. Gliding. Jumping mushrooms. Those wallows and chutes, etc. Can’t say I like them that much. Actively dislike most of them.

In HoT I’m not doing the same things I did in core (“Queensdale” lol). In core I never had to worry about huge numbers of mobs with cc PLUS confusing maps PLUS continual group content. Interesting that given these MAJOR differences from core that you experience HoT exactly the same.

Okay it’s possible you don’t play that well. I’m doing the same thing. I’m doing the exact same thing I did in Queensdale. It doesn’t mean the mobs don’t get harder. It’s just harder dynamic events, harder mobs. It’s called progression.

Unless you’re saying the mobs in the Curse Shore are identical in difficulty to the mobs in Queensdale. Or the mobs in Southsun which was introduced two months after launch.

Vayne.8563:

Technically there was one dungeon path canned, but also the Aetherblade Dungeon and the Molten Facility only exist now as fractals and they’re somewhat different from the originals.

Uhm, I remember playing the Aetherblade path only half a year ago, so it’s still there.

Which dungeon was the Molten Facility part of?

Vayne.8563:

In addition there’s the Nightmare Tower which is more or less an open world dungeon.

Woot? Are you talking about the one in Kessex Hill? Where’s the “dungeon” part of it? I remember exploring that POI, and there were only underwater remains with a champion krait guarding the whole construct, right? What did I miss?

Ashantara.8731:

Vayne.8563:

Technically there was one dungeon path canned, but also the Aetherblade Dungeon and the Molten Facility only exist now as fractals and they’re somewhat different from the originals.

Uhm, I remember playing the Aetherblade path only half a year ago, so it’s still there.

Which dungeon was the Molten Facility part of?

Vayne.8563:

In addition there’s the Nightmare Tower which is more or less an open world dungeon.

Woot? Are you talking about the one in Kessex Hill? Where’s the “dungeon” part of it? I remember exploring that POI, and there were only underwater remains with a champion krait guarding the whole construct, right? What did I miss?

The Aetherblade dungeon has nothing to do with the Aetherblade path. If you weren’t here you never saw it. They turned it into two fractals.

What was the dungeon part of the one in Kessex? The entire thing was a giant tower in the open world filled with bosses, much like an open world dungeon. You can only see the ruins today.