Guild Wars 2

slashlizardy.9167:

Hang in there Djinn, yes, just skip over his posts….

When people start making claims like open world can’t be end game, because it’s not a dungeon or raid, ignoring stuff Anet themselves said about the end game of this game, then I’m going to call them on it every time.

This thread is about mastery points and many of the posts that have been made are made by people who for one reason or another can’t get mastery points for their characters.

I’ve agreed with people who said mastery points shouldn’t be locked behind adventures, but I do feel that some people want things to be easy enough where anyone can do them.

The issue with that is that that bar moves for each person. If you make something easy enough for say Djinn to do, and he says this is great, there’ll always been someone else who says it’s not easy enough for them.

Once you do that, you’ve made it too easy for other people, who then leave the game before it’s too easy. It’s all about finding the sweet spot.

But some people feel so strongly about their experience that they project that experience onto the largest part of the player base. I’ve said time and again, I don’t think any demographic has a true majority here. It’s all about tuning experiences so that most people are within the range that accept what you’ve done.

I agree some people feel getting mastery points is too hard. I don’t think anyone believes getting mastery points is too easy. The bar could be moved more toward easier.

However, that’s precisely what Anet has been doing. Each new zone provides more HOT mastery points than you need.

The real issue, for some people, is core Tyria mastery points. And that’s not really a Heart of Thorns issue, or a difficulty issue or a map is confusing issue.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

I am continuing, for the most part, to do the same sorts of things I enjoyed while leveling. Of course the mobs are more challenging than what I faced in Queensdale, but doing open world events, fighting mobs, gathering, and so on are pretty much what I did while leveling. The sorts of things haven’t changed completely and fundamentally, but there certainly has been some escalation of challenge…then again Orr was more challenging than Queensdale too…even if the sorts of things done there is fundamentally the same or very similar.

There are other things that were not present while leveling however…trying unsuccessfully to navigate a multi-tier map. Gliding. Jumping mushrooms. Those wallows and chutes, etc. Can’t say I like them that much. Actively dislike most of them.

In HoT I’m not doing the same things I did in core (“Queensdale” lol). In core I never had to worry about huge numbers of mobs with cc PLUS confusing maps PLUS continual group content. Interesting that given these MAJOR differences from core that you experience HoT exactly the same.

Odd, I specifically stated that I dont experience HoT exactly the same as I did core maps…and gave examples.

I do the same sorts of things, as previously outlined, for the most part. Running around the open world solo, doing events, gathering, killing mobs, viewing vistas, looking for POI, and so on. But the mobs are more challenging, the maps more convoluted. The differences in detail are not always for the better IMO, but still the same sorts of things.

So, the same sorts of things, but not experienced in exactly the same way. If a new map is going to be exactly the same there probably isnt a reason to spend the resources producing it.

In core maps did you ever do escort events?
Go to a vista?
Seek out a point of interest?
Take a moment or two to look at the scenery?
Defend an area against attack by monsters?
Attack an area held by monsters?
Gather crafting mats from nodes scattered around the open world?
Rez a fallen player character?
Participate in a fight against a boss or boss like mob alongside other players?

Ive done all of these sorts of things in both HoT and Core Tyria. The details may be different. Degree of difficulty as well. But the sorts of content are common to both.

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

I am continuing, for the most part, to do the same sorts of things I enjoyed while leveling. Of course the mobs are more challenging than what I faced in Queensdale, but doing open world events, fighting mobs, gathering, and so on are pretty much what I did while leveling. The sorts of things haven’t changed completely and fundamentally, but there certainly has been some escalation of challenge…then again Orr was more challenging than Queensdale too…even if the sorts of things done there is fundamentally the same or very similar.

There are other things that were not present while leveling however…trying unsuccessfully to navigate a multi-tier map. Gliding. Jumping mushrooms. Those wallows and chutes, etc. Can’t say I like them that much. Actively dislike most of them.

In HoT I’m not doing the same things I did in core (“Queensdale” lol). In core I never had to worry about huge numbers of mobs with cc PLUS confusing maps PLUS continual group content. Interesting that given these MAJOR differences from core that you experience HoT exactly the same.

Odd, I specifically stated that I dont experience HoT exactly the same as I did core maps…and gave examples.

Ashen.2907:

I am continuing, for the most part, to do the same sorts of things I enjoyed while leveling.

This was the first sentence. Yes you did go on to describe some things that you find different, but this sentence seemed to indicate that in the main you found the experiences the same.

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

Djinn.9245:

Ashen.2907:

I am continuing, for the most part, to do the same sorts of things I enjoyed while leveling. Of course the mobs are more challenging than what I faced in Queensdale, but doing open world events, fighting mobs, gathering, and so on are pretty much what I did while leveling. The sorts of things haven’t changed completely and fundamentally, but there certainly has been some escalation of challenge…then again Orr was more challenging than Queensdale too…even if the sorts of things done there is fundamentally the same or very similar.

There are other things that were not present while leveling however…trying unsuccessfully to navigate a multi-tier map. Gliding. Jumping mushrooms. Those wallows and chutes, etc. Can’t say I like them that much. Actively dislike most of them.

In HoT I’m not doing the same things I did in core (“Queensdale” lol). In core I never had to worry about huge numbers of mobs with cc PLUS confusing maps PLUS continual group content. Interesting that given these MAJOR differences from core that you experience HoT exactly the same.

Odd, I specifically stated that I dont experience HoT exactly the same as I did core maps…and gave examples.

Ashen.2907:

I am continuing, for the most part, to do the same sorts of things I enjoyed while leveling.

This was the first sentence. Yes you did go on to describe some things that you find different, but this sentence seemed to indicate that in the main you found the experiences the same.

Same sorts of things. Not exactly the same experience.

The cafe I am sitting in right now serves the best deli sandwiches I have ever eaten. Two doors down is a subway. They both serve the same sort of things (for the most part), but there is a reason I am sitting in Rrag’s cafe and not in the Subway. The experiences are not the same, despite serving the same sorts of things.

There is a local pizza place….serves the same sorts of dishes as Little Caesar’s. Not the same experience at all.

I guess the thing to take away from this is that I am hungry…and my lunch just arrived so off to eat the best smoked bacon and turkey club ever.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t build a game around the lowest 5% of the playerbase, or you lose the top 5%. Every game in existence is looking for that sweet spot, but the spot is different for everyone. My issue with your comments on HOT and mastery points is that you seem to believe you have some sort of majority. That what was done is actually something wrong with the game. I don’t believe that’s true.

But it does sadden me that you have to stoop to personal attacks. And I’m not particularly happy with how conveniently you forget what’s occurred in the past of this game.

Vayne.8563:

Okay it’s possible you don’t play that well.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t build a game around the lowest 5% of the playerbase

Yes, I’m the one with the personal attacks LOL. I only responded to your comments by saying you made me regret responding.

I don’t believe that it is only the lowest 5% of players who have problems with HoT. And I never asked for the game to be “built around” anyone. I am simply expressing my opinion. If enough people don’t like something it is up to the company to decide what they will do with that information.

Vayne.8563:

The Aetherblade dungeon has nothing to do with the Aetherblade path.

Ahh, okay.

Vayne.8563:

What was the dungeon part of the one in Kessex? The entire thing was a giant tower in the open world filled with bosses, much like an open world dungeon. You can only see the ruins today.

You wrote “…which is an open world dungeon”, hence it sounded like something that was still there.

Vayne.8563:

Whatever complaints still exist about hot are a vast minority.

This is is because the actual “end-”gameplay in the HoT maps is really good and fun, and complaints mostly deal with preparing yourself and grinding away the obstacles.

Leveling your masteries, having to ramp up your character and getting used to the maps is an awful and tedious experience. The things that can be described with “getting ready to have fun” are no fun. But once you overcome all the obstacles, playing the HoT maps with events and meta-events is really fun. Even I have fun there these days, although I complained very much about HoT and hold up all my complaints.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t build a game around the lowest 5% of the playerbase, or you lose the top 5%. Every game in existence is looking for that sweet spot, but the spot is different for everyone. My issue with your comments on HOT and mastery points is that you seem to believe you have some sort of majority. That what was done is actually something wrong with the game. I don’t believe that’s true.

But it does sadden me that you have to stoop to personal attacks. And I’m not particularly happy with how conveniently you forget what’s occurred in the past of this game.

Vayne.8563:

Okay it’s possible you don’t play that well.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t build a game around the lowest 5% of the playerbase

Yes, I’m the one with the personal attacks LOL. I only responded to your comments by saying you made me regret responding.

I don’t believe that it is only the lowest 5% of players who have problems with HoT. And I never asked for the game to be “built around” anyone. I am simply expressing my opinion. If enough people don’t like something it is up to the company to decide what they will do with that information.

doesnt really matter what we believe, Anet have the statistics and they are building another expansion. They Invested in HOT, and they thought the response from the player base was enough payback to do it again. Less than 5% of people complain about HOT in a forum designed to give a voice to those that want to complain. Less than 5% of chat in game is about problems with hot. Where is the evidence that its over 5%?

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

You can’t build a game around the lowest 5% of the playerbase, or you lose the top 5%. Every game in existence is looking for that sweet spot, but the spot is different for everyone. My issue with your comments on HOT and mastery points is that you seem to believe you have some sort of majority. That what was done is actually something wrong with the game. I don’t believe that’s true.

But it does sadden me that you have to stoop to personal attacks. And I’m not particularly happy with how conveniently you forget what’s occurred in the past of this game.

Vayne.8563:

Okay it’s possible you don’t play that well.

Vayne.8563:

You can’t build a game around the lowest 5% of the playerbase

Yes, I’m the one with the personal attacks LOL. I only responded to your comments by saying you made me regret responding.

I don’t believe that it is only the lowest 5% of players who have problems with HoT. And I never asked for the game to be “built around” anyone. I am simply expressing my opinion. If enough people don’t like something it is up to the company to decide what they will do with that information.

Look at what you’ve just quoted. “It’s possible” that you don’t play that well. Pointing out a possibility can’t be construed as a personal attack. I didn’t say you do or don’t play that well. And you can’t build a game around the lowest 5%, again, it’s a fact whether or not you’re a part of it. On the other hand, you called my opinion laughable. Which is more offensive.

I have no problem with people expressing their opinion. However your opinion has ventured into territory that’s factually wrong. Anet has said dynamic events are part of end game on more than one occassion ( and someone provided a quote for that) and you’ve said other things along the way that are misleading, bordering on mistruth.

I’m not saying you can’t have your opinion. I respond to your posts when your opinions when being read by others are being stated as factual. If you find HoT difficult and I don’t, then it’s likely I do play better than you, I’m not sure why that’s an insult. However calling someone’s opinion laughable is absolutely an insult and can be taken no other way.; You know, glass houses and all.

There are even people who dislike HoT who are now starting to disagree with some of what you’re saying. But this thread isn’t about HOT it’s about mastery points specifically and even I’ve agreed with some of the criticism, with the explicit proviso that the Living World has rectified some of the problems people have with HOT by offering more mastery points than people need.

I don’t think and have never thought adventures were a good idea for mastery points. If nothing else, everyone with lower ping, including everyone outside the US is at a disadvantage and it feels bad man.

But that doesn’t change the fact that HoT isn’t close to dead, that people are getting mastery points and hero points there every single day and that I know this because I’m in HoT pretty much every single day.

Because I have guildies right now that are playing through HOT, getting everything they need and doing content. There are tons of people doing this who don’t mind using a timer site and the LFG tool. I’m sorry you don’t like these things but tools exist in the game to deal with many of the issues you bring up.

I’ve successfully done every meta in HoT in the last couple of weeks, and with the exception of T4 in VB, I wasn’t particularly trying for any of them. I’ve seen people getting hero points and mastery points. I’ve seen people killing vinetooth prime.

Is it exactly the same experience as core? No. But Queensdale is not exactly the same experience as Malchor’s Leap either. This game has always provided a variety of experiences. And those of us who play this game for the open world are entitled to harder more complex zones that we find fun because the core zones don’t bear repeating in the same way. HoT keeps people like me playing. I don’t think that’s a bad thing.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

Whatever complaints still exist about hot are a vast minority.

This is is because the actual “end-”gameplay in the HoT maps is really good and fun, and complaints mostly deal with preparing yourself and grinding away the obstacles.

Leveling your masteries, having to ramp up your character and getting used to the maps is an awful and tedious experience. The things that can be described with “getting ready to have fun” are no fun. But once you overcome all the obstacles, playing the HoT maps with events and meta-events is really fun. Even I have fun there these days, although I complained very much about HoT and hold up all my complaints.

This game has always been about the journey. When I was leveling, I couldn’t do everything. I did my zone. These zones are in a way like more than one zone. You can do the ground, but not the canopy in VB. But most stuff is on the ground.

To do VB effectively for 90% of it you need bouncing mushrooms, basic gliding and updraft use. If you play the game, ie do dynamic events and story, by the time you get to VB you have half of gliding trained. You need to train 2.5 masteries, ie level, to get to the next zone where you only need one extra mastery.

If this takes more than a day even without boosters, you’re just not playing well. But if you focus on what you’re doing ie the journey instead of focusing on what you can’t do, you’re playing the way the game, in my opinion, has been designed to play.

There are tons of people who say leveling is boring in this game and they’re grinding out levels because they’re focused on the goal instead of the journey.

If you play HoT like the core game, and stop worrying about masteries, it’s a much more fun experience. It’s all about focus.

If you are speaking of VB, let me tell you how my first open world experience looked like on that map. I just got out of the HoT prologue mission.

I saw a green mark somewhere on the fogged map for the next mission, and I said to myself: “well, let’s explore that new territory before I continue with the story”.

I saw a commander tag, and I saw an invitation from the commander in map chat for exploration. That was exactly what I was looking for. I joined his squad and tried to reach him. Unfortunately, it wasn’t possible to reach his tag. Either I was downed by enemies and had to start over. Or the tag was “over there” across, but no path leading to him. Or he was above me, or under me, and once I managed to get across, he was on the opposite part of the map. It was neither possible to reach his squad, nor possible to understand how that map and map navigation worked. I was constantly running and looking for contact with some group, but I wasn’t able to find any. Sometimes, I found a group, but it suddenly vanished into the void minutes later (they were flying away, porting away, jumping up or down as I now know).

That was my first experience in HoT, and it made me turn away from HoT for months. I simply wanted to play the game as it was presented to me, but it didn’t work. If there were not my guild, I would probably have left the game at this point.

Allowing such things as starting experience for a just released expansion is bad design.

Apparently, the devs focused solely on the endgame experience of a fully leveled and experienced player and totally forgot about the rookies that just started out. I sincerely hope that for the future expansion, Arenanet will invite players and not professional game QA testers to test and evaluate the starting and leveling experience of that expansion. We need people who test and evaluate how playing feels, not only QA that only ensure the non-existence of bugs.

Silmar Alech.4305:

If you are speaking of VB, let me tell you how my first open world experience looked like on that map. I just got out of the HoT prologue mission.

I saw a green mark somewhere on the fogged map for the next mission, and I said to myself: “well, let’s explore that new territory before I continue with the story”.

I saw a commander tag, and I saw an invitation from the commander in map chat for exploration. That was exactly what I was looking for. I joined his squad and tried to reach him. Unfortunately, it wasn’t possible to reach his tag. Either I was downed by enemies and had to start over. Or the tag was “over there” across, but no path leading to him. Or he was above me, or under me, and once I managed to get across, he was on the opposite part of the map. It was neither possible to reach his squad, nor possible to understand how that map and map navigation worked. I was constantly running and looking for contact with some group, but I wasn’t able to find any. Sometimes, I found a group, but it suddenly vanished into the void minutes later (they were flying away, porting away, jumping up or down as I now know).

That was my first experience in HoT, and it made me turn away from HoT for months. I simply wanted to play the game as it was presented to me, but it didn’t work. If there were not my guild, I would probably have left the game at this point.

Allowing such things as starting experience for a just released expansion is bad design.

Apparently, the devs focused solely on the endgame experience of a fully leveled and experienced player and totally forgot about the rookies that just started out. I sincerely hope that for the future expansion, Arenanet will invite players and not professional game QA testers to test and evaluate the starting and leveling experience of that expansion. We need people who test and evaluate how playing feels, not only QA that only ensure the non-existence of bugs.

I don’t know that playing the game was intended to just follow a commander tag. I’m sorry you had that experience. Here’s mine.

I did the first story and when I was done I started looking around. I went off the plateau by the starting waypoint and there was an event right there. It’s the pale reavers event chain.

I followed the people who were there and the orange circle, and I did the event. It led to an event chain that took me through the zone. The chain is actually 9 events long. I had gliding finished by the time I finished that chain.

The problem is trying to find a commander halfway across a map on a map you’ve never visited like following a commander tag blindly is the game.

The map was made to be explored. It’s like Orr when you first got to it. Following a commander worked for farming, not for following the story of the zone.

I’ve had new players complain to be about the Frostgorge Sound champ train saying much the same thing you just did. They couldn’t figure out how to get to where the next event was with no waypoints They’d get everywhere too fast and get frustrated. This is why I disliked the Queendale champ train so much.

There are two slopes off the place where the first story of HoT leaves you. Both of them lead to event chains.

If you’d been not trying to follow a stranger halfway across the map and actually tried playing the game, maybe your experience would have been different. Mine was.

The masteries along the way and the skill points came from playing the zones by following the event chains in the zones.

It did take a while to get my “hot legs” under me, but not much longer than it took to get my “Orr legs” under me.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know that playing the game was intended to just follow a commander tag.

He didn’t say he “just” followed a commander tag. And the combination of a commander tag and an invitation for people to explore with the commander makes for a good reason to want to explore a new map with a commander + group.

Not everyone wants to play the way you (or Anet) wants them to.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know that playing the game was intended to just follow a commander tag.

He didn’t say he “just” followed a commander tag. And the combination of a commander tag and an invitation for people to explore with the commander makes for a good reason to want to explore a new map with a commander + group.

Not everyone wants to play the way you (or Anet) wants them to.

For a guy who doesn’t want to respond to my posts, you sure do it a lot. lol

My point still stands. He never tried to explore the zone he tried to get somewhere in the zone he couldn’t reach because he died repeatedly.

And that’s happened to people in Orr and even Frostgorge. People have felt that same frustration in other parts of the game before this. I’ve seen this same complaint before.

You’re focus on whether he’s playing right or not isn’t really relevant to the fact that HOT isn’t extremely different from Orr. There are contested waypoints, there are places that are harder to get to, and people were confused and died trying to get to commanders, whether he’s playing as intended or not.

The zones are designed to play to to run to a random place. Even in Kessex Hills if you enter through the wrong gate and you’re outleveled by everything around you could die trying to get a a commander. And if you did that you’d have to learn/figure out be told how to go through the other entrance from Queensdale into Kessex.

That’s what I’m trying to say…regardless of whether I think that it was the best way to approach the new zone or not.

Vayne.8563:

The problem is trying to find a commander halfway across a map on a map you’ve never visited like following a commander tag blindly is the game.

It was a new thing. Following a commander around to explore the map was never necessary and was never done on the old maps. If someone offered this on that new map, I thought it was a good idea to follow to ease the exploration, because the map looked a bit confusing from the first story mission. Before, I never followed farm trains or the like. I wanted to prepare. I thought it would be easier with some kind of guide – that commander tag. Apparently, I was wrong. I don’t blame the game for me being wrong, but I blame the game for prohibiting me reaching some person on that unexplored map in a very unpleasant way.

Looking back on that situation, I cannot find a fault in my initial reasoning. There was no event in sight, so I was totally free to do anything. I simply was unprepared for my task, so I failed. I blame the game to not prepare me for that moment. I know now that this was actually the design of the game: to get the player into trouble unprepared, just like Mordremoth caught the pact fleet unprepared and destroyed it.
Well, I can only say that this is a design that makes me abandon a game. I see this as a personal insult. Very personal. If the game designers send me to perish, I want to let the game perish in anger. I cannot see the slightest bit of fun or entertainment value in that. I never felt a connection between the pact fleet failure and my failure: the pact fleet failure is due to Mordremoth’s story, and my failure is due to the map design. Not due to the jungle being dangerous.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

The problem is trying to find a commander halfway across a map on a map you’ve never visited like following a commander tag blindly is the game.

It was a new thing. Following a commander around to explore the map was never necessary and was never done on the old maps. If someone offered this on that new map, I thought it was a good idea to follow to ease the exploration, because the map looked a bit confusing from the first story mission. Before, I never followed farm trains or the like. I wanted to prepare. I thought it would be easier with some kind of guide – that commander tag. Apparently, I was wrong. I don’t blame the game for me being wrong, but I blame the game for prohibiting me reaching some person on that unexplored map in a very unpleasant way.

Looking back on that situation, I cannot find a fault in my initial reasoning. There was no event in sight, so I was totally free to do anything. I simply was unprepared for my task, so I failed. I blame the game to not prepare me for that moment. I know now that this was actually the design of the game: to get the player into trouble unprepared, just like Mordremoth caught the pact fleet unprepared and destroyed it.
Well, I can only say that this is a design that makes me abandon a game. I see this as a personal insult. Very personal. If the game designers send me to perish, I want to let the game perish in anger. I cannot see the slightest bit of fun or entertainment value in that. I never felt a connection between the pact fleet failure and my failure: the pact fleet failure is due to Mordremoth’s story, and my failure is due to the map design. Not due to the jungle being dangerous.

And as I said twice now, people had the same problem in Orr at launch and even later. This is not a new complaint to HoT. People have died multiple times trying to reach a commander and got frustrated.

If you keep dying, you think maybe I should do something else, or at least that’s what I would think. Thinking I want to do this so it must be possible is, in my opinion, not the best way to play any game.

Is it frustrating, sure? But those limitations exist in all facets of the game. They’re called attrition mechanics. You simply ignored it.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know that playing the game was intended to just follow a commander tag.

He didn’t say he “just” followed a commander tag. And the combination of a commander tag and an invitation for people to explore with the commander makes for a good reason to want to explore a new map with a commander + group.

Not everyone wants to play the way you (or Anet) wants them to.

For a guy who doesn’t want to respond to my posts, you sure do it a lot. lol

My point still stands. He never tried to explore the zone he tried to get somewhere in the zone he couldn’t reach because he died repeatedly.

He DID try to explore the zone – with a commander that presumably knew the zone because the commander was offering a tour.

Vayne.856

And that’s happened to people in Orr and even Frostgorge. People have felt that same frustration in other parts of the game before this. I’ve seen this same complaint before.

And yet neither Silmar, nor myself, nor anyone else I have read on these forums, have mentioned having similar trouble in Core. In fact nearly every complaint about HoT being confusing that I have read has specifically stated that they did not have this problem in Core Tyria.

I’m not really sure where you’re going with this one, Vayne. If HoT is no different than core, why do we love it so much? Isn’t it the challenging combat and huge, multi-layered maps? And is that not also what many other players hate about HoT? Are you going to tell them that they’re wrong for having their own opinions?

I know you’ve opened the eyes of many players to the joys of HoT (and so have I), but that just isn’t going to work on everyone. Some players just aren’t into that kind of gameplay and nothing you say or do is going to change that.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know that playing the game was intended to just follow a commander tag.

He didn’t say he “just” followed a commander tag. And the combination of a commander tag and an invitation for people to explore with the commander makes for a good reason to want to explore a new map with a commander + group.

Not everyone wants to play the way you (or Anet) wants them to.

For a guy who doesn’t want to respond to my posts, you sure do it a lot. lol

My point still stands. He never tried to explore the zone he tried to get somewhere in the zone he couldn’t reach because he died repeatedly.

He DID try to explore the zone – with a commander that presumably knew the zone because the commander was offering a tour.

Vayne.856

And that’s happened to people in Orr and even Frostgorge. People have felt that same frustration in other parts of the game before this. I’ve seen this same complaint before.

And yet neither Silmar, nor myself, nor anyone else I have read on these forums, have mentioned having similar trouble in Core. In fact nearly every complaint about HoT being confusing that I have read has specifically stated that they did not have this problem in Core Tyria.

So you seem to be saying if you don’t have a problem no one does or that those that do don’t matter. Well then the said could say the same thing for you.

If there weren’t complaints about the difficulty of Orr why was it nerfed?

AliamRationem.5172:

I’m not really sure where you’re going with this one, Vayne. If HoT is no different than core, why do we love it so much? Isn’t it the challenging combat and huge, multi-layered maps? And is that not also what many other players hate about HoT? Are you going to tell them that they’re wrong for having their own opinions?

I know you’ve opened the eyes of many players to the joys of HoT (and so have I), but that just isn’t going to work on everyone. Some players just aren’t into that kind of gameplay and nothing you say or do is going to change that.

I’m not saying HoT is no different from Core. I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

People are saying that HoT has fundamentally changed the game that the devs were trying to provide. Yet the experience in Orr is very much like the experience in VB. You have long event chains that open outposts, or temples which have an effect.

Creatures in Orr had stuns and pulls and knockbacks and people died. They couldn’t find their way around. Most waypoints in Orr were always contested. They complained.

No one claims Cursed Shore is like Queensdale. But Orr is significantly harder than the zones before it. Southsun was harder than Orr. Difficulty in games progress for a reason.

Saying that I couldn’t get to a commander in VB and so VB frustrated me is a commend I’ve heard about Orr and even about Frostgorge. One of my more casual guildies tried to follow the Frostgorge champ train and couldn’t keep up and she was all kinds of frustrated.

I’m saying that HoT IS harder, but so was Orr. That people complained about Orr and like HOT it got nerfed.

But Anet had always intended to include a level of challenge in this games open world. It launched with a level of challenge. If you were around you’d know how much has been changed and nerfed since release.

The game has been made easier and easier due to people complaining about difficulty. But the whole time people were complaining about difficulty, other people were complaining it was too easy.

This game hasn’t changed as drastically as some claim it has. They simply complained until Anet “fixed” THEIR problem without realizing it was causing other problems for a different demographic of players.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know that playing the game was intended to just follow a commander tag.

He didn’t say he “just” followed a commander tag. And the combination of a commander tag and an invitation for people to explore with the commander makes for a good reason to want to explore a new map with a commander + group.

Not everyone wants to play the way you (or Anet) wants them to.

For a guy who doesn’t want to respond to my posts, you sure do it a lot. lol

My point still stands. He never tried to explore the zone he tried to get somewhere in the zone he couldn’t reach because he died repeatedly.

He DID try to explore the zone – with a commander that presumably knew the zone because the commander was offering a tour.

Vayne.856

And that’s happened to people in Orr and even Frostgorge. People have felt that same frustration in other parts of the game before this. I’ve seen this same complaint before.

And yet neither Silmar, nor myself, nor anyone else I have read on these forums, have mentioned having similar trouble in Core. In fact nearly every complaint about HoT being confusing that I have read has specifically stated that they did not have this problem in Core Tyria.

So you seem to be saying if you don’t have a problem no one does or that those that do don’t matter. Well then the said could say the same thing for you.

If there weren’t complaints about the difficulty of Orr why was it nerfed?

Your criticism was that he was trying to get somewhere to join up with someone instead of exploring on his own. The reason this made a difference for him is because VB is a confusing map (especially the minimap). Trying to get from A to B in Orr is not even remotely as confusing.

Orr mobs were nerfed simply because they didn’t fit in the difficulty progression of core Tyria.

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know that playing the game was intended to just follow a commander tag.

He didn’t say he “just” followed a commander tag. And the combination of a commander tag and an invitation for people to explore with the commander makes for a good reason to want to explore a new map with a commander + group.

Not everyone wants to play the way you (or Anet) wants them to.

For a guy who doesn’t want to respond to my posts, you sure do it a lot. lol

My point still stands. He never tried to explore the zone he tried to get somewhere in the zone he couldn’t reach because he died repeatedly.

He DID try to explore the zone – with a commander that presumably knew the zone because the commander was offering a tour.

Vayne.856

And that’s happened to people in Orr and even Frostgorge. People have felt that same frustration in other parts of the game before this. I’ve seen this same complaint before.

And yet neither Silmar, nor myself, nor anyone else I have read on these forums, have mentioned having similar trouble in Core. In fact nearly every complaint about HoT being confusing that I have read has specifically stated that they did not have this problem in Core Tyria.

So you seem to be saying if you don’t have a problem no one does or that those that do don’t matter. Well then the said could say the same thing for you.

If there weren’t complaints about the difficulty of Orr why was it nerfed?

Your criticism was that he was trying to get somewhere to join up with someone instead of exploring on his own. The reason this made a difference for him is because VB is a confusing map (especially the minimap). Trying to get from A to B in Orr is not even remotely as confusing.

Orr mobs were nerfed simply because they didn’t fit in the difficulty progression of core Tyria.

There are places in Orr it’s very hard to get to. You just don’t remember. Like trying to get to the other side of Straits of Devestation when the event isn’t on and the bone door is blocking the entrance. There are two ways to get around but you have to find those ways and people died before they did.

I didn’t criticize what he did. I simply thought it was the wrong way to go about it. An attrition mechanic is designed to make people stop and think about what they’re doing. That includes coming into Straits at level 70 and running to the other side to get to a commander with level 75 foes. You would die, probably a lot. And you’d realize, I’d hope, that maybe there’s another way to do this. Because that’s what games are.

You try something, it doesn’t work and you try something else.

It’s like saying I’m level 10 and I want to fight level 20 foes, so I’ll just go here.

I’m not saying HoT has no flaws. I’m talking about trying to get to a commander and dying repeatedly is a bad reason to give up on a zone, because it’s happened to other people in the past.

Djinn.9245:

Orr mobs were nerfed simply because they didn’t fit in the difficulty progression of core Tyria.

The only nerf to Orr was in the form of mob density reduction in some areas of Cursed Shore and Malchor’s Leap. Other areas remain unchanged. For anyone who wonders what it was like before, there are a few underwater areas in Straits of Devastation where the mob density is similar to how the rest of the Orr maps were.

In fact, in early 2013, the Risen army was buffed. Some Risen mobs were given a lot more damage — Veteran Nobles and higher are one example. Risen Pirates were given the Fire Field, leap and Aura, with significant burn damage. Risen Farmers/Fishers were given an underwater attack similar to Necro Spear 2, which to this day can take a huge chunk of one’s health if not dealt with.

The Krait army was buffed also, at a similar time. It was instructive to see people downed all over the place by Krait Hypnos condi fields, for instance. My opinion is that ANet was going to revamp other core armies, but shortly after those two army revamps, they changed tactics with Living World Season 1. The Molten Alliance were buffed Dredge/Female Legion. The Toxic Alliance were buffed Nightmare Court and re-buffed Krait (yes, the Toxic Krait got to keep the Krait revamp buff). The Aetherblades were a new army with mobs much more dangerous than Ogres, Jotun, etc.

So, the difficulty in content aimed at max level players has been ramping up since more than two years prior to HoT. Mordrem might (or might not, really) be a touch harder than some of the alter Living World stuff. There’s not really a dramatic upswing in mob difficulty in HoT. What there is are mobs that seem more difficult because they are designed to make players use more of the skills the game gives them. I had (and still do have) trouble with Shadowleapers, but frankly it’s because I didn’t want to switch my build to counter them. When I do, they melt and I don’t.

I think you’re forgetting what it was like to encounter these enemies unprepared. It isn’t just the shadowleapers, although they are probably the best example: highly mobile, evasive enemies with potent ranged offensive capabilities. There are many enemies in HoT that are simply more dangerous than what you encounter in Orr.

I didn’t start playing GW2 until after HoT released, and I remember doing quite well in Orr with my first 80 (a dagger/pistol thief running a shadow arts build). I also remember entering the jungle for the first time and falling flat on my face.

Don’t get me wrong. I love HoT. If I had to list my top three favorite maps in the game there’s no question: 1. TD, 2. VB, 3. AB. I can’t get enough of maps like this! But it’s precisely because of those complex, layered maps and challenging combat that these maps are my favorites.

What does that say for people who dislike the combat and the layouts? Are they wrong? I’m not sure there’s much to be gained from trying to convince people that this is simply a natural progression as if it invalidates their preferences. It doesn’t. They like what they like just as I like what I like.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know that playing the game was intended to just follow a commander tag.

He didn’t say he “just” followed a commander tag. And the combination of a commander tag and an invitation for people to explore with the commander makes for a good reason to want to explore a new map with a commander + group.

Not everyone wants to play the way you (or Anet) wants them to.

For a guy who doesn’t want to respond to my posts, you sure do it a lot. lol

My point still stands. He never tried to explore the zone he tried to get somewhere in the zone he couldn’t reach because he died repeatedly.

He DID try to explore the zone – with a commander that presumably knew the zone because the commander was offering a tour.

Vayne.856

And that’s happened to people in Orr and even Frostgorge. People have felt that same frustration in other parts of the game before this. I’ve seen this same complaint before.

And yet neither Silmar, nor myself, nor anyone else I have read on these forums, have mentioned having similar trouble in Core. In fact nearly every complaint about HoT being confusing that I have read has specifically stated that they did not have this problem in Core Tyria.

So you seem to be saying if you don’t have a problem no one does or that those that do don’t matter. Well then the said could say the same thing for you.

If there weren’t complaints about the difficulty of Orr why was it nerfed?

Your criticism was that he was trying to get somewhere to join up with someone instead of exploring on his own. The reason this made a difference for him is because VB is a confusing map (especially the minimap). Trying to get from A to B in Orr is not even remotely as confusing.

Orr mobs were nerfed simply because they didn’t fit in the difficulty progression of core Tyria.

There are places in Orr it’s very hard to get to. You just don’t remember. Like trying to get to the other side of Straits of Devestation when the event isn’t on and the bone door is blocking the entrance. There are two ways to get around but you have to find those ways and people died before they did.

Very few, specific, places. Not practically everywhere because it is a 3D map.

AliamRationem.5172:

I think you’re forgetting what it was like to encounter these enemies unprepared. It isn’t just the shadowleapers, although they are probably the best example: highly mobile, evasive enemies with potent ranged offensive capabilities. There are many enemies in HoT that are simply more dangerous than what you encounter in Orr.

I didn’t start playing GW2 until after HoT released, and I remember doing quite well in Orr with my first 80 (a dagger/pistol thief running a shadow arts build). I also remember entering the jungle for the first time and falling flat on my face.

Don’t get me wrong. I love HoT. If I had to list my top three favorite maps in the game there’s no question: 1. TD, 2. VB, 3. AB. I can’t get enough of maps like this! But it’s precisely because of those complex, layered maps and challenging combat that these maps are my favorites.

What does that say for people who dislike the combat and the layouts? Are they wrong? I’m not sure there’s much to be gained from trying to convince people that this is simply a natural progression as if it invalidates their preferences. It doesn’t. They like what they like just as I like what I like.

Well said, but I don’t have problems with the combat of HoT, my main issue is the platforming collection of Mastery points. I hate that we totally disagree on map design, where I can’t stand a map that I can’t see pass ugly green trees. The kind of map I prefer is gorgeous landscaped maps like a view that you would get looking down the Washington Mall from Lincoln’s Memorial. You have been the voice of reason constantly, and again I will state that my fervent hope for the next expac is for a design built for us all in mind.

Vayne.8563:

I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

There is some truth in that, but there is also a fundamental difference between HoT (VB) and Orr:
For Orr, you could always go back to the previous and easier maps and build your character and abilities until you felt ready for Orr. In contrast, for HoT, you had to play in HoT to prepare for HoT. You had to prepare in the same area you were preparing for. That’s one of the crucial downsides of HoT.

In a way, I did go back and prepared elsewhere: I played Fractals for a year instead of HoT. But I don’t think that was expected and intended gameplay. It was expected that if a player buys HoT, he will play HoT and not an old game area.

slashlizardy.9167:

AliamRationem.5172:

I think you’re forgetting what it was like to encounter these enemies unprepared. It isn’t just the shadowleapers, although they are probably the best example: highly mobile, evasive enemies with potent ranged offensive capabilities. There are many enemies in HoT that are simply more dangerous than what you encounter in Orr.

I didn’t start playing GW2 until after HoT released, and I remember doing quite well in Orr with my first 80 (a dagger/pistol thief running a shadow arts build). I also remember entering the jungle for the first time and falling flat on my face.

Don’t get me wrong. I love HoT. If I had to list my top three favorite maps in the game there’s no question: 1. TD, 2. VB, 3. AB. I can’t get enough of maps like this! But it’s precisely because of those complex, layered maps and challenging combat that these maps are my favorites.

What does that say for people who dislike the combat and the layouts? Are they wrong? I’m not sure there’s much to be gained from trying to convince people that this is simply a natural progression as if it invalidates their preferences. It doesn’t. They like what they like just as I like what I like.

Well said, but I don’t have problems with the combat of HoT, my main issue is the platforming collection of Mastery points. I hate that we totally disagree on map design, where I can’t stand a map that I can’t see pass ugly green trees. The kind of map I prefer is gorgeous landscaped maps like a view that you would get looking down the Washington Mall from Lincoln’s Memorial. You have been the voice of reason constantly, and again I will state that my fervent hope for the next expac is for a design built for us all in mind.

Wow! That’s high praise! Thanks!

AliamRationem.5172:

I think you’re forgetting what it was like to encounter these enemies unprepared. It isn’t just the shadowleapers, although they are probably the best example: highly mobile, evasive enemies with potent ranged offensive capabilities. There are many enemies in HoT that are simply more dangerous than what you encounter in Orr.

Shadowleapers are the most egregious example. Their evasion mechanic seems to offer no counter-play. At least, I haven’t found a way to deal with it other than to wait it out. It just seems to proc periodically, and run on a timer. I’ve even ambushed some before they aggro (i.e., it’s just walking on a path) and I get the “Miss” message. That part I find to be counter-intuitive. Sure, the unknown is always a factor. When the revamped Risen and Krait were new, there was just as much outrage over Vet Risen Nobles and Krait Hypnos as there was over Mordrem Snipers,

I didn’t start playing GW2 until after HoT released, and I remember doing quite well in Orr with my first 80 (a dagger/pistol thief running a shadow arts build). I also remember entering the jungle for the first time and falling flat on my face.

Of all the complaints about the lack of difficulty with core mobs, the one Anet looked to address with HoT was the lack of need in core to adjust one’s build or one’s approach to encounters. That’s why a lot of HoT mobs have mechanics that can be countered by character abilities that most don’t bother with in core. However, once you remove that as a factor, most HoT mobs don’t really do more damage than some core mobs. Higher-tier Risen Nobles and any Krait Hypnos can kill you just as much as a Shadowleaper or Chak Zapper, it’s just that their mechanic (AoE fields in both cases) is something that any player who leveled a character in core has seen many times. More Hot mob mechanics are designed to be countered by something other than dodge, and that’s much rarer in core.

Don’t get me wrong. I love HoT. If I had to list my top three favorite maps in the game there’s no question: 1. TD, 2. VB, 3. AB. I can’t get enough of maps like this! But it’s precisely because of those complex, layered maps and challenging combat that these maps are my favorites.

What does that say for people who dislike the combat and the layouts? Are they wrong? I’m not sure there’s much to be gained from trying to convince people that this is simply a natural progression as if it invalidates their preferences. It doesn’t. They like what they like just as I like what I like.

No, there’s no right or wrong in this. Game PvE combat is always going to involve a learning curve unless it’s designed to be a no-brainer. However, when you look at mob numbers (i.e., how much damage they do versus how much damage you need to do to defeat them), there has been a natural progression, even without LS2. Where the gap is is in the need for a more varied — and different — response to mob abilities in HoT than in core.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

There is some truth in that, but there is also a fundamental difference between HoT (VB) and Orr:
For Orr, you could always go back to the previous and easier maps and build your character and abilities until you felt ready for Orr. In contrast, for HoT, you had to play in HoT to prepare for HoT. You had to prepare in the same area you were preparing for. That’s one of the crucial downsides of HoT.

In a way, I did go back and prepared elsewhere: I played Fractals for a year instead of HoT. But I don’t think that was expected and intended gameplay. It was expected that if a player buys HoT, he will play HoT and not an old game area.

you just summarized exactly my problem with this, a new expansion can add new stuff but should never scare player away just so they can prepare.

one thing i really don’t like is the part where masteries are region locked, there is absolutely no reason why i can only learn masteries in HoT maps but nowhere else.
that’s like saying i can only learn to ride a bike in a city instead of down town, really makes absolutely no sense.

i can understand linguistics, you can’t learn a language in an area where they never use it and have nothing to learn from.
same with the toads, it only grows there so you can’t learn how to use it unless you have it close by, that’s logical.

sorudo.9054:

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

There is some truth in that, but there is also a fundamental difference between HoT (VB) and Orr:
For Orr, you could always go back to the previous and easier maps and build your character and abilities until you felt ready for Orr. In contrast, for HoT, you had to play in HoT to prepare for HoT. You had to prepare in the same area you were preparing for. That’s one of the crucial downsides of HoT.

In a way, I did go back and prepared elsewhere: I played Fractals for a year instead of HoT. But I don’t think that was expected and intended gameplay. It was expected that if a player buys HoT, he will play HoT and not an old game area.

you just summarized exactly my problem with this, a new expansion can add new stuff but should never scare player away just so they can prepare.

one thing i really don’t like is the part where masteries are region locked, there is absolutely no reason why i can only learn masteries in HoT maps but nowhere else.
that’s like saying i can only learn to ride a bike in a city instead of down town, really makes absolutely no sense.

i can understand linguistics, you can’t learn a language in an area where they never use it and have nothing to learn from.
same with the toads, it only grows there so you can’t learn how to use it unless you have it close by, that’s logical.

The reason masteries are region locked has to do with gameplay not with logic. That is to say if you have easier places to get mastery a percentage of the playerbase will take the easy road, even if they might enjoy the harder road. It’s just human nature.

You make an expansion and you need to give people reason to play/farm that expansion. Being fun isn’t enough for everyone. Perhaps it’s not enough for most people even.

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

There is some truth in that, but there is also a fundamental difference between HoT (VB) and Orr:
For Orr, you could always go back to the previous and easier maps and build your character and abilities until you felt ready for Orr. In contrast, for HoT, you had to play in HoT to prepare for HoT. You had to prepare in the same area you were preparing for. That’s one of the crucial downsides of HoT.

In a way, I did go back and prepared elsewhere: I played Fractals for a year instead of HoT. But I don’t think that was expected and intended gameplay. It was expected that if a player buys HoT, he will play HoT and not an old game area.

you just summarized exactly my problem with this, a new expansion can add new stuff but should never scare player away just so they can prepare.

one thing i really don’t like is the part where masteries are region locked, there is absolutely no reason why i can only learn masteries in HoT maps but nowhere else.
that’s like saying i can only learn to ride a bike in a city instead of down town, really makes absolutely no sense.

i can understand linguistics, you can’t learn a language in an area where they never use it and have nothing to learn from.
same with the toads, it only grows there so you can’t learn how to use it unless you have it close by, that’s logical.

The reason masteries are region locked has to do with gameplay not with logic. That is to say if you have easier places to get mastery a percentage of the playerbase will take the easy road, even if they might enjoy the harder road. It’s just human nature.

You make an expansion and you need to give people reason to play/farm that expansion. Being fun isn’t enough for everyone. Perhaps it’s not enough for most people even.

if they need a reason they need to do a better job, locking it down in an expansion that already scares ppl away shows lack of reason and bad design.
also, everyone has a different idea of fun, my fun is to have a goal and story to follow, the HoT maps are so chaotic and the story is so locked down behind masteries that fun isn’t high in the list when i run around there.

Ryou.2398:

Masteries is quite a unique feature in any mmorpg, I do not think I ever played an mmorpg to have something like this and it is quite clever solving the standard lets become a gear and stat treadmill of illusion, trust me these masteries are an amazing addition and we should be thanking anet for coming up with something so clever and unique that will hopefully give a better standard to mmorpgs in the future.

I have seen allot of complaints, but people do not realize they are trying to give you a good challenge/reward to give us incentive for the later content. Trust me it is far more fun then grinding for adding a new stat here and there.

Now if you want to compare it to something like the alternate advancement in eq2 well then that is indeed comparable since eq2 actually added new abilities to earn but in a way gw2 does as well with the elite skill.

Just my 2 cents, anet thank you, impressive job.

Its not the mastery system, but the lack of different ways to obtain enough of them. The adventures and jumping puzzles are just too infuriating.

I don’t play this game to platform, or transform into something where I can’t use my actual skills. I play it to kill stuff. The active combat system is what keeps me going throughout and I would like to have combat options to get the points, or at least a HOT mastery respec option of some sort.

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

There is some truth in that, but there is also a fundamental difference between HoT (VB) and Orr:
For Orr, you could always go back to the previous and easier maps and build your character and abilities until you felt ready for Orr. In contrast, for HoT, you had to play in HoT to prepare for HoT. You had to prepare in the same area you were preparing for. That’s one of the crucial downsides of HoT.

In a way, I did go back and prepared elsewhere: I played Fractals for a year instead of HoT. But I don’t think that was expected and intended gameplay. It was expected that if a player buys HoT, he will play HoT and not an old game area.

you just summarized exactly my problem with this, a new expansion can add new stuff but should never scare player away just so they can prepare.

one thing i really don’t like is the part where masteries are region locked, there is absolutely no reason why i can only learn masteries in HoT maps but nowhere else.
that’s like saying i can only learn to ride a bike in a city instead of down town, really makes absolutely no sense.

i can understand linguistics, you can’t learn a language in an area where they never use it and have nothing to learn from.
same with the toads, it only grows there so you can’t learn how to use it unless you have it close by, that’s logical.

The reason masteries are region locked has to do with gameplay not with logic. That is to say if you have easier places to get mastery a percentage of the playerbase will take the easy road, even if they might enjoy the harder road. It’s just human nature.

You make an expansion and you need to give people reason to play/farm that expansion. Being fun isn’t enough for everyone. Perhaps it’s not enough for most people even.

if they need a reason they need to do a better job, locking it down in an expansion that already scares ppl away shows lack of reason and bad design.
also, everyone has a different idea of fun, my fun is to have a goal and story to follow, the HoT maps are so chaotic and the story is so locked down behind masteries that fun isn’t high in the list when i run around there.

There’s always going to be something that scares someone away. Take away stuff that scares people away, and you might as well close the game down.

As an example, when this game launched, people were scared away by dungeons,. scared away by Orr and even having to complete WvW to get world complete.

There has never been a time when people weren’t scared away.

Make a game that has nothing that scares anyone and it’s a game I probably wouldn’t play.

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

There is some truth in that, but there is also a fundamental difference between HoT (VB) and Orr:
For Orr, you could always go back to the previous and easier maps and build your character and abilities until you felt ready for Orr. In contrast, for HoT, you had to play in HoT to prepare for HoT. You had to prepare in the same area you were preparing for. That’s one of the crucial downsides of HoT.

In a way, I did go back and prepared elsewhere: I played Fractals for a year instead of HoT. But I don’t think that was expected and intended gameplay. It was expected that if a player buys HoT, he will play HoT and not an old game area.

you just summarized exactly my problem with this, a new expansion can add new stuff but should never scare player away just so they can prepare.

one thing i really don’t like is the part where masteries are region locked, there is absolutely no reason why i can only learn masteries in HoT maps but nowhere else.
that’s like saying i can only learn to ride a bike in a city instead of down town, really makes absolutely no sense.

i can understand linguistics, you can’t learn a language in an area where they never use it and have nothing to learn from.
same with the toads, it only grows there so you can’t learn how to use it unless you have it close by, that’s logical.

The reason masteries are region locked has to do with gameplay not with logic. That is to say if you have easier places to get mastery a percentage of the playerbase will take the easy road, even if they might enjoy the harder road. It’s just human nature.

You make an expansion and you need to give people reason to play/farm that expansion. Being fun isn’t enough for everyone. Perhaps it’s not enough for most people even.

if they need a reason they need to do a better job, locking it down in an expansion that already scares ppl away shows lack of reason and bad design.
also, everyone has a different idea of fun, my fun is to have a goal and story to follow, the HoT maps are so chaotic and the story is so locked down behind masteries that fun isn’t high in the list when i run around there.

There’s always going to be something that scares someone away. Take away stuff that scares people away, and you might as well close the game down.

As an example, when this game launched, people were scared away by dungeons,. scared away by Orr and even having to complete WvW to get world complete.

There has never been a time when people weren’t scared away.

Make a game that has nothing that scares anyone and it’s a game I probably wouldn’t play.

i never ever asked to take things away, i ask to put some masteries in a global category (that works in both core and HoT).
in HoT and LS3 the further you go the more you need your glider, it would be a really good thing to make gliders global so when you’re high enough (or maxed out) it’s less a choir to play ether and more an enjoyment.

Mastery is nothing new conceptually in gaming. It is a way to progress a character post max level. It gives as sense of progression without constantly raising the level cap. Diablo 3 did something comparable but did it well as opposed to the poor implementation by Anet.

In Diablo 3 you have the paragon system where players earn points by playing the game. The mechanism is XP. With GW2 it’s possible to play the game everyday, craft several sets of ascended gear, and participate in open world content assiduously and not earn a single mastery point. I actually did this myself where I played several months without a single point gained.

My assumption here is that reward should come from playing the game and it should come from playing it your way as much as possible. “Mastery” progression works beautifully in D3, it doesn’t work at all in GW2 if your playstyle doesn’t align perfectly with that prescribed by Anet.

In order to make it work in GW2 points would have to be awarded for playing the game and the best way to do that is through XP. My two cents.

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

There is some truth in that, but there is also a fundamental difference between HoT (VB) and Orr:
For Orr, you could always go back to the previous and easier maps and build your character and abilities until you felt ready for Orr. In contrast, for HoT, you had to play in HoT to prepare for HoT. You had to prepare in the same area you were preparing for. That’s one of the crucial downsides of HoT.

In a way, I did go back and prepared elsewhere: I played Fractals for a year instead of HoT. But I don’t think that was expected and intended gameplay. It was expected that if a player buys HoT, he will play HoT and not an old game area.

you just summarized exactly my problem with this, a new expansion can add new stuff but should never scare player away just so they can prepare.

one thing i really don’t like is the part where masteries are region locked, there is absolutely no reason why i can only learn masteries in HoT maps but nowhere else.
that’s like saying i can only learn to ride a bike in a city instead of down town, really makes absolutely no sense.

i can understand linguistics, you can’t learn a language in an area where they never use it and have nothing to learn from.
same with the toads, it only grows there so you can’t learn how to use it unless you have it close by, that’s logical.

The reason masteries are region locked has to do with gameplay not with logic. That is to say if you have easier places to get mastery a percentage of the playerbase will take the easy road, even if they might enjoy the harder road. It’s just human nature.

You make an expansion and you need to give people reason to play/farm that expansion. Being fun isn’t enough for everyone. Perhaps it’s not enough for most people even.

if they need a reason they need to do a better job, locking it down in an expansion that already scares ppl away shows lack of reason and bad design.
also, everyone has a different idea of fun, my fun is to have a goal and story to follow, the HoT maps are so chaotic and the story is so locked down behind masteries that fun isn’t high in the list when i run around there.

There’s always going to be something that scares someone away. Take away stuff that scares people away, and you might as well close the game down.

As an example, when this game launched, people were scared away by dungeons,. scared away by Orr and even having to complete WvW to get world complete.

There has never been a time when people weren’t scared away.

Make a game that has nothing that scares anyone and it’s a game I probably wouldn’t play.

i never ever asked to take things away, i ask to put some masteries in a global category (that works in both core and HoT).
in HoT and LS3 the further you go the more you need your glider, it would be a really good thing to make gliders global so when you’re high enough (or maxed out) it’s less a choir to play ether and more an enjoyment.

Yep, I know what you asked for and I believe it would be bad for the game.

Part and parcel of making any MMO is traffic control. You have to direct people where you want them to go, mostly through rewards. People say they love challenging content but without reward most people wouldn’t do it. They want their time and energy to be rewarded.

The MMO player base is its own worst enemy. Where as you personally may really want to just stay in core Tyria forever, others may say they want to and yet they’ll get bored not being forced into that new zone and they’ll leave the game. Not everyone is analytical enough to know why they stay or why they leave a game.

The need to put people in new zones, means you have to make sure the rewards are exclusive to those zones. Which is why what you’re asking for isn’t likely to ever happen.

And when the new expansion comes out, should there be masteries (and I’m guessing their will be), then they’re going to make leveling those masteries unique to those zones.

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Vayne.8563:

sorudo.9054:

Silmar Alech.4305:

Vayne.8563:

I’m saying that HoT is not much different from Orr on release, or at least, I remember seeing the same kinds of posts about it.

There is some truth in that, but there is also a fundamental difference between HoT (VB) and Orr:
For Orr, you could always go back to the previous and easier maps and build your character and abilities until you felt ready for Orr. In contrast, for HoT, you had to play in HoT to prepare for HoT. You had to prepare in the same area you were preparing for. That’s one of the crucial downsides of HoT.

In a way, I did go back and prepared elsewhere: I played Fractals for a year instead of HoT. But I don’t think that was expected and intended gameplay. It was expected that if a player buys HoT, he will play HoT and not an old game area.

you just summarized exactly my problem with this, a new expansion can add new stuff but should never scare player away just so they can prepare.

one thing i really don’t like is the part where masteries are region locked, there is absolutely no reason why i can only learn masteries in HoT maps but nowhere else.
that’s like saying i can only learn to ride a bike in a city instead of down town, really makes absolutely no sense.

i can understand linguistics, you can’t learn a language in an area where they never use it and have nothing to learn from.
same with the toads, it only grows there so you can’t learn how to use it unless you have it close by, that’s logical.

The reason masteries are region locked has to do with gameplay not with logic. That is to say if you have easier places to get mastery a percentage of the playerbase will take the easy road, even if they might enjoy the harder road. It’s just human nature.

You make an expansion and you need to give people reason to play/farm that expansion. Being fun isn’t enough for everyone. Perhaps it’s not enough for most people even.

if they need a reason they need to do a better job, locking it down in an expansion that already scares ppl away shows lack of reason and bad design.
also, everyone has a different idea of fun, my fun is to have a goal and story to follow, the HoT maps are so chaotic and the story is so locked down behind masteries that fun isn’t high in the list when i run around there.

There’s always going to be something that scares someone away. Take away stuff that scares people away, and you might as well close the game down.

As an example, when this game launched, people were scared away by dungeons,. scared away by Orr and even having to complete WvW to get world complete.

There has never been a time when people weren’t scared away.

Make a game that has nothing that scares anyone and it’s a game I probably wouldn’t play.

i never ever asked to take things away, i ask to put some masteries in a global category (that works in both core and HoT).
in HoT and LS3 the further you go the more you need your glider, it would be a really good thing to make gliders global so when you’re high enough (or maxed out) it’s less a choir to play ether and more an enjoyment.

Yep, I know what you asked for and I believe it would be bad for the game.

Part and parcel of making any MMO is traffic control. You have to direct people where you want them to go, mostly through rewards. People say they love challenging content but without reward most people wouldn’t do it. They want their time and energy to be rewarded.

The MMO player base is its own worst enemy. Where as you personally may really want to just stay in core Tyria forever, others may say they want to and yet they’ll get bored not being forced into that new zone and they’ll leave the game. Not everyone is analytical enough to know why they stay or why they leave a game.

The need to put people in new zones, means you have to make sure the rewards are exclusive to those zones. Which is why what you’re asking for isn’t likely to ever happen.

And when the new expansion comes out, should there be masteries (and I’m guessing their will be), then they’re going to make leveling those masteries unique to those zones.

there are plenty of masteries that only work in HoT maps, gliding works globally.
it is actually a good idea to put gliding as a global mastery.

i know HoT needs something to lure ppl in, personally they hold ppl back and scare them away when it’s something that keeps them alive in an expansion.

one problem i see with masteries globally is that it’s a huge time consuming thing, something not made for ppl that barely have enough time to even get one mastery max within a year or so.
it needs way to much dedication, this is nice for ppl who are jobless with nothing else to do anyway but ppl with a full time job and just 2 hours a day to play on the PC masteries become a hell.

if you want at least one comprimise, make gliding faster and easier to max, that way a global mastery can be used faster by anyone regardless of time restrictions.
something like that you need less XP (if possible, half of what we need now) and less mastery points.

I just recently maxed out my non-raid masteries, and I can sure tell you I wish we could pick and choose which mastery to focus on instead of the growing tier system. Look at the LS3 masteries, and the only ones you really need are the first two and the vinegrowth slingshot. If we could focus on the more necessary to get around ones first (I know this causes trouble for the infinite glider stamina, maybe just keep that one tiered or require the advanced gliding mastery first?) Then after that the poison lore and the vendors tend to be the next logical ones after the required map movement ones for the HoTs story. The challenge the champion ones can be the last ones since they don’t provide as much of a benefit for the 6-8 MP they require, so you don’t feel like you have to waste points to get more necessary masteries.

Or allow a once per week (timeframe debatable) to refund and redo your point allotment. Then when you want to focus Dragon Stand, go ahead and stack into poison lore and the bounce shrooms and gliding, and empty everything else.

I personally feel that there need to be more options for getting masteries since I’m at a point where I cant really improve my adventures without some serious effort (terrible at jumping the fungus among us and sanctum sprint, both are barely at bronze for me) and gold are only on the blatantly easier golds like flying circus and the pit. I have enough saved up to hopefully unlock the final LS3 skill, and I don’t think I’d be able to get enough to push into raid mastery to finish it. I finally decided to fully unlock the specialization weapons and that made me get the adventures (and the stupid unlocks for their machined counterparts) and now I have seen dragon pass to the point of nausea to get the mastery points and machined weapon parts. I just wished dragon’s pass offered more HoTs tokens. But that’s not for this thread.

@sorudo.9054

Not a compromise. You take a universally usable skill that’s the most popular skill in the game, and you move it from HoT, particularly now that you have new zones that you can train it in that aren’t HoT and you ruin the entire balance.

Why would someone not playing HOT go into HOT to train nuhock wallows, when they’re not going to go into HOT in the first place. That doesn’t get people into HOT.

And since you don’t realize is, there are people who didn’t like HOT at first who liked it later. They died a few times and would have given up. But then they got the hang of HOT. Without gliding I’m not sure those people would have stayed.

Nope. I still think that would be bad for the game.

HOT maps are by design convoluted noodle piles that demand the use of mobility masteries to efficiently access. Locking mobility masteries behind task walls makes map access even more difficult. I understand and support locking combat skill specializations behind challenge walls, but I do not support locking map access mobility behind such walls. I find the logic somewhat flawed in design – “complete the map so that you can access the map easier”. I have the masteries – I’m just not going back to where I picked them up.