Guild Wars 2

NoTrigger.8396:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

NoTrigger.8396:

ODB.6891:

They also appear to be trying to seriously diminish casual play? "this new system is about players working together and coordinating. I don’t think the people calling for this have really thought out how much this will also negatively affect them. They are actually less organized in most cases than zerk players…as most of them will just try to do their own separate things in encounters…whereas zerk usually coordinates the exact same strategy.

this will force people to wake up and l2p. once you have to earn your rewards in this game instead of getting everything for running around in circles mindlessly, the player base will become much better at playing it.

Or they complain hard enough for it to get nerfed.

sometimes it wouldnt be too bad if anet acted like wildstar devs:

https://twitter.com/stephanfrost/status/463005512066281472

and he left to pump out games for a Amazon studio? His Hardcore™ and involvement was hardly impressive if you take away initial hype sales.

I don’t see zerker going anywhere for the dungeon scene, but I hope it becomes less relevant w/HoT and its encounters.

zerker/ max dps still will be king. whoever thinks otherwise needs 2 l2p. every class has all the possibilities in the world mitigating all srs dmg while staying at full dps. only bad players that can’t handle this might have to switch.

Wetpaw.3487:

and he left to pump out games for a Amazon studio? His Hardcore™ and involvement was hardly impressive if you take away initial hype sales.

how exactly is that relevant?
the point is, so far they didnt nerf anything when people cried. other games however did.

you should have to get good and earn your rewards and not get them for free.

Zerker meta will stay. I simply don’t believe they will find a way to fix so many problems and exploits.

We will see more Enginners for CC, though.

Andred.1087:

As long as zerker is the highest DPS option, it will be top choice for PvE. And since the entire idea of ‘berserker’ is a glass cannon, I don’t think it will ever not have the highest damage output in general.

when we come to a point where a party of full zerker just cant stay alive and it becomes more viable to invest a bit into defensive stats and healing power, then other stat setups than 5 full zerkers will be the highest damage output.

The easiest way to start with that is by increasing a mob’s sustained damage and number of attacks. so you just cant get by with only dodges and stuff.

Yea lots of ways to change encounters so players just have to keep eating damage as a mitigation check rather than a DPS check. Changing the way blind works is a huge one.

Now if they mess with projectile reflects…haha…boom.

RashanDale.3609:

Andred.1087:

As long as zerker is the highest DPS option, it will be top choice for PvE. And since the entire idea of ‘berserker’ is a glass cannon, I don’t think it will ever not have the highest damage output in general.

when we come to a point where a party of full zerker just cant stay alive and it becomes more viable to invest a bit into defensive stats and healing power, then other stat setups than 5 full zerkers will be the highest damage output.

The easiest way to start with that is by increasing a mob’s sustained damage and number of attacks. so you just cant get by with only dodges and stuff.

and what exactly would be the point for doing that? the combat system was designed so that player skill > passive defense.
if a good player can avoid taking damage by being skilled enough and game understanding/knowledge, then thats good design.

Kodiak.3281:

Yea lots of ways to change encounters so players just have to keep eating damage as a mitigation check rather than a DPS check. Changing the way blind works is a huge one.

Now if they mess with projectile reflects…haha…boom.

changing the way blind works wont even make a difference.

ill give you a hint: using blind vs bosses was and still is beyond useless.

Killing the ‘zerker meta’ would just lead to them creating a ‘different meta’. People want to exclude, and they’ll find a way to build their filters.

Random notes:

Idiot twitter dev guy: An idiot or doing PR work via twitter. No good designer would be that doctrinaire about it.

Making bosses (or just enemies) moer like players: I think that players would actually hate that, they’d think the enemies were cheating.

and what exactly would be the point for doing that? the combat system was designed so that player skill > passive defense.
if a good player can avoid taking damage by being skilled enough and game understanding/knowledge, then thats good design.

The point would be to get some kittening variety.

RashanDale.3609:

The point would be to get some kittening variety.

I don’t think you understand that words “optimal” and “variety” are oxymorons.

rotten.9753:

RashanDale.3609:

The point would be to get some kittening variety.

I don’t think you understand that words “optimal” and “variety” are oxymorons.

I don’t think you understand what the word ‘oxymoron’ means, since what you are attempting to describe is not oxymoronic but mutually exclusive. An oxymoron is the use of two contradictory terms in conjunction to represent abstract thought or be purposely contradictory, mutual exclusion is the principle that two systems cannot operate simultaneously.

And ‘variety’ and ‘optimal’ are not mutually exclusive anyway. Something can be optimal for some content and inoptimal for other content, creating variety.

Conncept.7638:

And ‘variety’ and ‘optimal’ are not mutually exclusive anyway. Something can be optimal for some content and inoptimal for other content, creating variety.

Which is what we have currently. Zerker is optimal in dungeons which are dead and deserted anyway, soldier is optimal on world bosses and some condition damage gear is optimal on husks. Since we won’t get any dungeons at all, anet doesn’t have to balance it.

And thanks for the correction, I’ll make sure to remember it.

Crit chance/damage remains=optimal zerker for life.

It’s funny how we can’t build full tank/healing/condi but you can for dps,3 stats doing the same while 1 for others, sure great balance. No matter how many changes they make zerker with crit will always be optimal unless they slap non critable mobs on you which is lame I would much rather have them remove those two if they are looking to improve stats customization if not just say it already.

Sagat.3285:

Crit chance/damage remains=optimal zerker for life.

It’s funny how we can’t build full tank/healing/condi but you can for dps,3 stats doing the same while 1 for others, sure great balance. No matter how many changes they make zerker with crit will always be optimal unless they slap non critable mobs on you which is lame I would much rather have them remove those two if they are looking to improve stats customization if not just say it already.

You can do exactly that (with 1 class) the issue is that the content is doable without doing that so why bother?

Right now you can build full tank and massive healing (even group healing) into 1 character at a noticable but not crippling loss of dps. The fact that people have that possibility (and it’s avery well known build) and don’t do it anyways probably says as much as you need to know.

RashanDale.3609:

and what exactly would be the point for doing that? the combat system was designed so that player skill > passive defense.
if a good player can avoid taking damage by being skilled enough and game understanding/knowledge, then thats good design.

The point would be to get some kittening variety.

There is already variety, plenty of people do not care about zerker meta. It is the few people who do.
We’re talking about an optimal where zerker is the best choice. And people, such as yourself, want to change this optimal.
But your suggestion will not lead to more variety in the optimal, but less.

Professions are not made the same. If you enforce a certain level of damage on the players it won’t affect all professions equally.
Some will still be able to truck on in full zerker, while others cannot and need to invest into healingpower, vitality and toughness. And by doing so these professions will fall behind in damage.

The result is that professions who are natively less durable will simply be tossed at the wayside in this optimal scenario, by these pug lords.
“LF1m, zerker must” will simply become something like “LF1m, zerker gear must, no ProfessionX”.

Zetsumei.4975:

ODB.6891:

Harper.4173:

Nike.2631:

Galespark.7835:

Adding to Conncepts post, I just assume good players wearing zerker will not be knocked into those firefields since they can dodge/block, or keep an ace up their sleeves for when it does happen to them (teleport, invulnerability…).

I entirely agree, with the key word being “good”. There are a lot of mediocre people in Berserker gear because the game’s a lot more forgiving than folks realize. If I have an agenda its not to see Berserker rendered useless, it’s to see it rendered risky enough that people accept that even if they personally have spider-sense and can hit every crucial dodge, not everyone should roll that way for fear of excessive floor-licking.

You do realize the majority of players are not in zerker gear do you?

This^

I pretty much pug exclusively because I prefer the convenience of just grabbing a quick random fractal group, whenever I happen to be online. I would say more than 60% of players I’ve encountered are wearing something other than zerker gear. That 60% is probably and understatement. It amazes me how players are so caught up in trying to find and justify ways to penalize players who wear zerker gear. Its not as if the entire PvE model isn’t based on one shot mechanics already….that by default…penalize zerker gear more than any other gear type.

I’m actually in favor of mechanics that involve strategy…versus always staying in a stack…not that I don’t like the stack either though. Just so long as the strategies aren’t gimmicks that become tedious after the first couple of times or that require you to gear differently to avoid getting an unavoidable one shot.

I don’t see the taunt mechanic as being a PvP only thing…as someone else pointed out…it will apparently be a contributor to the defiance/break bar in PvE apparently. I’m just wary of the slippery slope of introducing more and more things into the game that could eventually lead to requiring groups to bring someone to control aggro…hence an eventual tank requirement.

One shot mechanics promote zerker meta. If there is someone wearing full zerker and someone wearing full pvt but both insta-down to the same one-shot attack if they dont dodge, then whats the point of having any toughness or vitality stats. There should be a viable option to build for sustain otherwise atleast where pve is concerned, all those fancy traitlines and stat combinations are just for show and obselete.

But 90% of the times the PVT guy won’t get 1 hit killed by the same attack that 1 hit kills a zerker. That’s the whole point.

Zetsumei.4975:

You avoid that by making bosses more like players and therefore needing a varied party comp for the unique things each profession brings to the table. I think people too often forget to compare with PvP when talking about changing Pve. For example if bosses relied on having a skill which applies a very long stability buff to them rather being invulnerable to CC or having long protection and regen rather than lazily slapping on a bigger health bar then professions like necros and mesmers would be needed for their boon strip. You can see what I’m getting at.

I’m going to have to remind you here that GW2 aims at a casual player base that has casual goals and doesn’t exactly want their PVE experience to be PVP.

People go into general PVE to win, get loot and feel like a hero. Fighting PVP-tier mobs diminishes that greatly and ruins the “hero experience” for the vast majority of players that are at an average or below average level of experience and skill.

If people wanted to fight PVP tier opponents they’d be doing PVP.

See- Anet can’t have their cake and eat it – they can’t make the game harder by making it more PVP like without alienating players that need their hero empowerment fantasy. The moment Casual Chris(not related to any real person) gets stomped by just mobs over and over again is the moment the mirage of him being awesome and good at the game vanishes. So too will his interest die out in the majority of cases. And with his interests in the game going down the drain so too will Anet’s revenue.

Kodiak.3281:

Yea lots of ways to change encounters so players just have to keep eating damage as a mitigation check rather than a DPS check. Changing the way blind works is a huge one.

Now if they mess with projectile reflects…haha…boom.

This is just absurd.

Why would they “mess with projectile reflects”? Why do we even have them in the game in the first place? That’s right – to reflect projectiles. So why would we mess with something that was put in the game in the first place and is working as intended?

Why not mess with let’s say “stealth”. Why not mess with other mechanics? What’s the point?

Also do you realize how blind worked vs bosses?

RashanDale.3609:

and what exactly would be the point for doing that? the combat system was designed so that player skill > passive defense.
if a good player can avoid taking damage by being skilled enough and game understanding/knowledge, then thats good design.

The point would be to get some kittening variety.

This is wrong. You wouldn’t get any variety. You’d get the “most damaging set that can survive the encounter” meta.
That’s right – the “zerker meta” would become the “knight’s meta” or whatever gear/stat combo produced the next in line best results after the “defunct zerker”.

Amazing variety right there.

If you think that people who go “zkers or kick” and who enforce the zerker meta would suddenly embrace all other gear sets if only zerker was nerfed – you’re in for an unpleasant surprise.

It’d just change the tune – it’d be “knight’s or kick” and they’d enforce a knights meta.

Conncept.7638:

rotten.9753:

RashanDale.3609:

The point would be to get some kittening variety.

I don’t think you understand that words “optimal” and “variety” are oxymorons.

I don’t think you understand what the word ‘oxymoron’ means, since what you are attempting to describe is not oxymoronic but mutually exclusive. An oxymoron is the use of two contradictory terms in conjunction to represent abstract thought or be purposely contradictory, mutual exclusion is the principle that two systems cannot operate simultaneously.

And ‘variety’ and ‘optimal’ are not mutually exclusive anyway. Something can be optimal for some content and inoptimal for other content, creating variety.

But :

1. We already have that since what works in dungeons doesn’t necessarily work in the open world events ( Teq, Wurm), or in PvP, WvW or even in FOTM.

2. You’ll always have that “optimal” solution for each content type which will still create the “adhere to the meta or kick” situations players are so upset about right now.
It won’t make meta players more inclined to keep you in their party since your spec and gear are meta for another part of the game. They’ll kick you unless you’re in the right meta and gear for the part of the game they’re doing.

I fail to see the variety.

Harper.4173:

Zetsumei.4975:

You avoid that by making bosses more like players and therefore needing a varied party comp for the unique things each profession brings to the table. I think people too often forget to compare with PvP when talking about changing Pve. For example if bosses relied on having a skill which applies a very long stability buff to them rather being invulnerable to CC or having long protection and regen rather than lazily slapping on a bigger health bar then professions like necros and mesmers would be needed for their boon strip. You can see what I’m getting at.

I’m going to have to remind you here that GW2 aims at a casual player base that has casual goals and doesn’t exactly want their PVE experience to be PVP.

People go into general PVE to win, get loot and feel like a hero. Fighting PVP-tier mobs diminishes that greatly and ruins the “hero experience” for the vast majority of players that are at an average or below average level of experience and skill.

If people wanted to fight PVP tier opponents they’d be doing PVP.

See- Anet can’t have their cake and eat it – they can’t make the game harder by making it more PVP like without alienating players that need their hero empowerment fantasy. The moment Casual Chris(not related to any real person) gets stomped by just mobs over and over again is the moment the mirage of him being awesome and good at the game vanishes. So too will his interest die out in the majority of cases. And with his interests in the game going down the drain so too will Anet’s revenue.

It’s not just that of course, there’s a lot of false pride over what is actually fairly accessible content that goes on. PvP-hard content would alienate a lot of midcore-hardcore players as well.

People want to feel some challenge but also want reliably beatable content. It’s not just Chris Casual, but also Hardcore Harry that feels that way.

^^ absolutely Windsagio.

When people say they want “hard content” it’s not really an objective term that they mean. They mean they want content that stresses them, but is fun and beatable. This means that it’s going to have a completely different meaning to various people. Personally I still find Lupi to be hard, I can somewhat consistently solo him, but he still stresses me, a misstep and I fail, but he’s fun and beatable. I’m sure some folks out there like maybe Purple Miku, Dub or No Trigger who’ve soloed him so many times it’s become routine probably wouldn’t consider him hard at this point, I mean some people have soloed him with only dodge roll damage on warrior… that’s nuts.

Also, curious, what is the healing build you were talking about earlier in the thread? I’m a big fan of meta variations, I think there’s lots of strength in traits/utility/weapon choices that can make ones life much easier while still getting things done relatively quickly. For example Hammer guard and variations on traits from the standard 35042 damage build.

xDudisx.5914:

Haishao.6851:

This will hurt Solo a lot more than groups.

If the defience bar does not scale with the number of players in dungeons then bosses will be impossible to CC solo. There won’t be enough spike cc from 1 player to drain the bar and it will regen with time. I like this change because dungeons were not designed for be completed solo anyway. An example of this is cof p1 where you need 5 to activate the orbs and kill the controller.

Not sure why you thought I meant dungeons. There are champions all over the world too and they all have defiance.

Harper.4173:

Kodiak.3281:

Yea lots of ways to change encounters so players just have to keep eating damage as a mitigation check rather than a DPS check. Changing the way blind works is a huge one.

Now if they mess with projectile reflects…haha…boom.

This is just absurd.

Why would they “mess with projectile reflects”? Why do we even have them in the game in the first place? That’s right – to reflect projectiles. So why would we mess with something that was put in the game in the first place and is working as intended?

Why not mess with let’s say “stealth”. Why not mess with other mechanics? What’s the point?

Why would they? The only person who could answer that is Arena Net for sure. As the person who threw that entirely hypothetical idea out there I’d hazard a guess at to disrupt the meta and get people to do different things.

If you are trying to imply reflects aren’t pretty darned important to the Zerker meta I kinda don’t got a response to that one because it’s just so out there. It’s like saying water isn’t wet.

RashanDale.3609:

and what exactly would be the point for doing that? the combat system was designed so that player skill > passive defense.
if a good player can avoid taking damage by being skilled enough and game understanding/knowledge, then thats good design.

The point would be to get some kittening variety.

What does the prefix of the gear you wear have to do with build variety? It’s almost as if you think wearing berserker means you’re roleplaying as a berserker, a cleric a cleric. You do know that the name of the prefix is meaningless right?

Reflect is important as it does make alot of fights easier but I am 100% positive if they removed every single reflect spell from the game, zerker meta will still be dominant. Only thing would change is that mesmer would become necro tier.

hybrid.5027:

What does the prefix of the gear you wear have to do with build variety?

That’s a load of bullcrap and you know it.

It makes as much a difference as your choice in utilities or weapons or traits, since it decides the efficacy of all the previously mentioned and more. Put dire gear on your warrior and run through any dungeon without a bow or sword and then come tell us that armor choice made no difference. Or better yet, put dire gear on a whole party, then go ahead and clear a dungeon with as many condition based abilities as you want. Stream it if you can, we could all use a laugh.

I think the question people should put thought into is why they think it is acceptable to try to make it difficult for any specific group of players to complete content? I’ve seen this same theme repeated in so many posts. There is always someone…usually more than one…posting “ideas” of how to make zerker players die and fail at completing content. The ideas range from making reflects not work anymore, making blinds not work anymore, making mobs attack faster to make incoming damage unavoidable, applying constant aoe damage to make low hp pool players die…or have to resort to wearing toughness/vitality gear, changing encounter/AI mechanics to somehow kill anyone not wearing toughness/vitality gear. All of these “ideas” are full of hypocrisy and completely absurd. The reason why are they are full of hypocrisy and so completely absurd follows:

1. Would it be okay if ANET added enrage timers to make all champs or higher kill anyone not doing enough damage after a certain amount of time in combat? This would be the equivalent to your “ideas” to kill zerk players, only it would affect soldier/cleric/nomad/and possibly condi sets instead. How good of an idea would it be if your “ideas” were turned on you instead of targeting zerk players who are not making any similar suggestions to make the game unplayable for you?

2. What exactly is the presence of a minority of players (zerk/assassin) doing to stop you from playing the game? What exactly are they stopping you from achieving or doing? What rewards are zerk players getting that you cannot? That being said…why are you devoting so much effort to forum crying and spouting “ideas” to ruin the fun of zerk players…instead of just enjoying the game…that they pay for the same as you?

Is this not the same thing that phiw has cried a river of forum tears over since the launch of this game? Phiw has always cried over being pressured to play a certain way…yet phiw is completely willing to try and force zerk/assassin to gear and play their way? At some point, ANET needs to acknowledge the hypocrisy and put their foot down. Stop forum balancing/forum expansion designing…just to appease some completely ridiculous whims of players who don’t even understand the implications of what they are clamoring for.

Conncept.7638:

That’s a load of bullcrap and you know it.

It makes as much a difference as your choice in utilities or weapons or traits, since it decides the efficacy of all the previously mentioned and more. Put dire gear on your warrior and run through any dungeon without a bow or sword and then come tell us that armor choice made no difference. Or better yet, put dire gear on a whole party, then go ahead and clear a dungeon with as many condition based abilities as you want. Stream it if you can, we could all use a laugh.

They really should just delete all gear prefix and replace it with celestial. No more stupid forum fights over zerker gear which is used in deserted by devs content and won’t be even developed further.

Heart of Thorns, what most players will be playing soon, will have mostly open world content where gear is just a flavour because the best community in online gaming doesn’t mind what you wear and how you play. The new meta will be Play-How-You-Want meta.

Conncept.7638:

hybrid.5027:

What does the prefix of the gear you wear have to do with build variety?

That’s a load of bullcrap and you know it.

It makes as much a difference as your choice in utilities or weapons or traits, since it decides the efficacy of all the previously mentioned and more. Put dire gear on your warrior and run through any dungeon without a bow or sword and then come tell us that armor choice made no difference. Or better yet, put dire gear on a whole party, then go ahead and clear a dungeon with as many condition based abilities as you want. Stream it if you can, we could all use a laugh.

Does it? Regardless of gear you still do the same things in encounters.
You use the same rotation in your weapon skills. You do the same dodges at the same time intervals. You approach the content identically.
You skip the same skips. You LOS the same mobs. It’s basically the same everything except you do less damage and everything takes longer.

Also if you fail to realize that we’re discussing power-based gear here I’m going to point it out.
As far as power-gear is concerned the prefix doesn’t matter -the variety people speak of wouldn’t be there.

As far as conditions go – well – no matter how they make the encounters and how the content works the 25 cap will pretty much shut down any hope of them being serious in PVE.

I don’t really know why you brought them up since we all know they’ll never be a thing until the cap is somehow dealt with.

Harper.4173:

Does it? Regardless of gear you still do the same things in encounters.
You use the same rotation in your weapon skills. You do the same dodges at the same time intervals. You approach the content identically.
You skip the same skips. You LOS the same mobs. It’s basically the same everything except you do less damage and everything takes longer.

Also if you fail to realize that we’re discussing power-based gear here I’m going to point it out.
As far as power-gear is concerned the prefix doesn’t matter -the variety people speak of wouldn’t be there.

As far as conditions go – well – no matter how they make the encounters and how the content works the 25 cap will pretty much shut down any hope of them being serious in PVE.

I don’t really know why you brought them up since we all know they’ll never be a thing until the cap is somehow dealt with.

Is build =/= gear ? The answer is complicated.

Some builds features traits and a choice of weapon/utilities that makes the build sustainable by itself. With these builds, you don’t need a specific gear to make it work and thus gear=/= build.

Classic example : 0/2/0/6/6 elementalist in PvE can be used with literally anything. I’m not saying the build is good! I’m just saying that you do the same things regardless of the armour you are wearing.

Other builds do not have this luxury. Usually these builds are based on the principle of “kill it before it kills you”. With these builds : traits and utilites are taken to maximise the damage dealt with the minimum survivabilily required to escape dangerous situations/counter attacks. They NEED a damage oriented gear otherwise you won’t be able to assassinate your target before your défenses expire.

Classic example : D/P roaming thief in WvW. You just CAN’T use this build with anything but berserker armour (or other very offensive stats sets). In this case build=gear.
This also applies for almost (if not all) Dungeon meta builds that have too little defenses to be efficient with cleric armour. You NEED a minimum of firepower to make it work (knight armour + zerk trinkets in the worst case scenario).

Back on topic :

There is a reason why the actual PvE meta is called the “berserker meta” and not “glass canon meta”. In this meta, builds require specific gear to work correctly and only one stat set allows a player to inflict the maximum dps possible. Why do you think some people impose gearcheck on join ?

Zerker will always be superior imo, at least for my warr, n zerk gives more dmg for spike dmg encounters like wyvern has. If u know how to play zerk is the way.

ODB.6891:

I think the question people should put thought into is why they think it is acceptable to try to make it difficult for any specific group of players to complete content? I’ve seen this same theme repeated in so many posts. There is always someone…usually more than one…posting “ideas” of how to make zerker players die and fail at completing content. The ideas range from making reflects not work anymore, making blinds not work anymore, making mobs attack faster to make incoming damage unavoidable, applying constant aoe damage to make low hp pool players die…or have to resort to wearing toughness/vitality gear, changing encounter/AI mechanics to somehow kill anyone not wearing toughness/vitality gear.

The alternative is that they change encounters in dungeon paths so that what is optimal for one encounter is not optimal for another in the same path. If the most efficient way to handle a dungeon path is with a wide variety of builds (including gear, because gear is an important part), rather than 5 glass cannon (and yes, it is possible to manage this without forcing certain builds), then I would say that’s a pretty healthy meta. Everything is important to bring because, at some point, it will be the most efficient thing to have.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/PvX-Discussion-about-stats/first#post4836252

As long crit exist no matter what the encounter it will not happen unless they slap non critable mobs everywhere which is the same as removing it

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The alternative is that they change encounters in dungeon paths so that what is optimal for one encounter is not optimal for another in the same path. If the most efficient way to handle a dungeon path is with a wide variety of builds (including gear, because gear is an important part), rather than 5 glass cannon (and yes, it is possible to manage this without forcing certain builds), then I would say that’s a pretty healthy meta. Everything is important to bring because, at some point, it will be the most efficient thing to have.

This is exactly what I’m referring to. Why is it so important to “fix” what isn’t broken? What possible justification can there be for this, than to make content harder for one specific play style? Its not as if nomads can’t clear the content. If everyone can clear the content, with no major issues, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Honestly, what I’m reading between the lines in these posts, is that people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want their selfish stats like vitality and toughness to somehow be valuable to groups. Making that happen will only introduce negatives into the game. Those negatives would be tanking requirements and reduction in freedom in group composition. It would be absolutely terrible to have to hold a slot in groups for someone who can tank. It would open up more requests/requirements to link gear and builds to qualify for that slot. You may as well add an inspect feature in the game if you go this route. I’m pretty sure phiw would not like that. I’m sorry, but I think people should stop complaining and trying to come up with ideas to fix what isn’t broken.

I see someone else upset that reflects do not scale off of defensive stats. You do realize that a nomad/cleric’s reflects actually perform the core function of reflect just as well as a zerk/assassin/rampager/etc. This core function being to protect the party/player from projectiles. Clearly, if you are geared as nomad/cleric….you have made a conscious choice to deal as little damage as possible…so why is the scaled damage dealt by reflected attacks any different than the even greater effect of your gear selection choice? I could get behind reflect skills having some sort of healing component…increased by healing power of the player who used the reflect skill though. Not sure how that would be implemented or if it would be terribly OP to get healed by preventing the damage the healing is supposed to compensate for…and damaging the attacker at the same time.

ODB.6891:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The alternative is that they change encounters in dungeon paths so that what is optimal for one encounter is not optimal for another in the same path. If the most efficient way to handle a dungeon path is with a wide variety of builds (including gear, because gear is an important part), rather than 5 glass cannon (and yes, it is possible to manage this without forcing certain builds), then I would say that’s a pretty healthy meta. Everything is important to bring because, at some point, it will be the most efficient thing to have.

This is exactly what I’m referring to. Why is it so important to “fix” what isn’t broken? What possible justification can there be for this, than to make content harder for one specific play style? Its not as if nomads can’t clear the content. If everyone can clear the content, with no major issues, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Honestly, what I’m reading between the lines in these posts, is that people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want their selfish stats like vitality and toughness to somehow be valuable to groups. Making that happen will only introduce negatives into the game. Those negatives would be tanking requirements and reduction in freedom in group composition. It would be absolutely terrible to have to hold a slot in groups for someone who can tank. It would open up more requests/requirements to link gear and builds to qualify for that slot. You may as well add an inspect feature in the game if you go this route. I’m pretty sure phiw would not like that. I’m sorry, but I think people should stop complaining and trying to come up with ideas to fix what isn’t broken.

Simply put, because it’s currently one-dimensional. Pretty much everything has some situation where it is optimal, but current dungeon design only reflects a small portion of that.

Everything will have a meta, that is definite and unchangable. However, different content can have different metas. What I don’t understand is why some people are so vehemently against this idea.

Here are some examples of things they could do:

1. Boss has incredibly high armor. Assuming you must defeat the boss to advance, the meta for the path now includes Sinister/Carrion/Rabid condition builds; something currently absent from all dungeon metas right now.

2. NPC must be escorted with valuable cargo. Lots of ways to handle this one, with nuances increasing importance of DPS, healing, stealth, control, or defenses.

3. Spread out ranged enemies. Stack & smack tactics won’t work, so you have to survive pressure as you kill them.

All three of these are things that could be done to add variety. 5-zerk would still be able to complete the content, it just wouldn’t be optimal in those situations. If situations like these were mixed in along with situations we do see in dungeons, things would get a lot more interesting while still remaining doable by most compositions.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Simply put, because it’s currently one-dimensional. Pretty much everything has some situation where it is optimal, but current dungeon design only reflects a small portion of that.

Everything will have a meta, that is definite and unchangable. However, different content can have different metas. What I don’t understand is why some people are so vehemently against this idea.

Here are some examples of things they could do:

1. Boss has incredibly high armor. Assuming you must defeat the boss to advance, the meta for the path now includes Sinister/Carrion/Rabid condition builds; something currently absent from all dungeon metas right now.

2. NPC must be escorted with valuable cargo. Lots of ways to handle this one, with nuances increasing importance of DPS, healing, stealth, control, or defenses.

3. Spread out ranged enemies. Stack & smack tactics won’t work, so you have to survive pressure as you kill them.

All three of these are things that could be done to add variety. 5-zerk would still be able to complete the content, it just wouldn’t be optimal in those situations. If situations like these were mixed in along with situations we do see in dungeons, things would get a lot more interesting while still remaining doable by most compositions.

Okay:

Scenario 1. Now instead of holding a slot open specifically for a tank…you are now holding at least one slot open for a condi build. Still not a good thing. Still slows down group formation. Still restricts group composition (just as you said…a new meta). So either groups will be holding this slot for a pure condi build, will be looking for a condi build just for this one encounter/path, or will have someone swapping out for a condi character mid run…effectively wasting time getting a different character in to clear the content.

Scenario 2. I have yet to see an enjoyable implementation of a NPC escort mission. They are slow, they constantly back track after each fight, it takes control away from the players as far as success….if the npc stands in aoe or just happens to get focused. NPCs also glitch…which can be really annoying if you are looking for a fast run.

Scenario 3. Not a bad idea. Obviously favors toughness, vitality, healing power….but not a bad idea. This is already implemented in at least a few fractals…one in particular is the chanters/cultists on the final arch diviner fight on the cliff side fractal.

Jerus.4350:

^^ absolutely Windsagio.

When people say they want “hard content” it’s not really an objective term that they mean. They mean they want content that stresses them, but is fun and beatable. This means that it’s going to have a completely different meaning to various people. Personally I still find Lupi to be hard, I can somewhat consistently solo him, but he still stresses me, a misstep and I fail, but he’s fun and beatable. I’m sure some folks out there like maybe Purple Miku, Dub or No Trigger who’ve soloed him so many times it’s become routine probably wouldn’t consider him hard at this point, I mean some people have soloed him with only dodge roll damage on warrior… that’s nuts.

Also, curious, what is the healing build you were talking about earlier in the thread? I’m a big fan of meta variations, I think there’s lots of strength in traits/utility/weapon choices that can make ones life much easier while still getting things done relatively quickly. For example Hammer guard and variations on traits from the standard 35042 damage build.

I can’t log in to check, but this is the basics (thus there are some gaps with minor things like sigils, I think it’s just more damage however you want to get it);

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQJASWl8ApXo1CxUI8DJRCRg9X761XBHA-TpAZgAi7PAUGAA

its 00660 with 2 floater points (usually in either fiery wrath or master of consecrations).

I used the build editor in PVP mode because its much much faster, usually you mix in zerker trinkets with celestial armor for a bit more dps push.

That one is incomplete because I can’t log in right now so I’m going off raw memory As is the way, you swap in pure of voice when appropriate.

Similarly staff weapon swap is optional, you use it because of “Line of Warding” and because empower is like a 70% self heal in addition to the group heal (noting the problems with might overwrites). As an aside, line and ring of warding are skills I really really don’t see enough guardians using. In the right circumstance, they’re infinite damage mitigation (while they last)

In celestial gear you’re almost guaranteed aggro, the boses really stick to you (you see it the most with mossman, the svanir dude, and the arcdiviner. Because Aggro is fairly reliable everyone can stay in melee and close, which keeps them in your marks, which gives you additional self-heals from the protection ticks. Proper placement keeps people out of cleaves, and if there’s incidental damage or something you have breath.

Now I’m not gonna deny, this is slower than the dps build, alhtough you get a surprising amount of damage out of your marks (especially if you’re running fiery wrath). However, it simplifies many many fights, and between the large incidental healing and aggro control lets the dps’ers focus on DPS.

edit: And yes, as to why I brougth this up, this build can pretty easily face tank most 49 fractals with a little bit of intelligent skill use and your group staying in your marks for AH ticks.

Also I’m not a high theory crafter, so I’m ready to get blown up on theory, exept to my other point, this build is known but most good people don’t do it anyways because pure dps still works if your good enough (and is usually faster). In fact, it’s MASSIVE overkill on anything but high level fractals.

Ahh yeah… well that’s the old “pillar guard” type build. The whole Valor tree doesn’t benefit anyone but you much for defense (extra toughness from strength in numbers is all). Personally I dropped that as an option for me when I got frustrated with the inconsistency of toughness agro mechanics. Hammer with the honor tree traits are a variation that can make for a nice smooth ride for the group though, theory crafting of course you can do other stuff, but like I said I was just curious what build you were talking about, thanks for posting.

Jerus.4350:

Ahh yeah… well that’s the old “pillar guard” type build. The whole Valor tree doesn’t benefit anyone but you much for defense (extra toughness from strength in numbers is all). Personally I dropped that as an option for me when I got frustrated with the inconsistency of toughness agro mechanics. Hammer with the honor tree traits are a variation that can make for a nice smooth ride for the group though, theory crafting of course you can do other stuff, but like I said I was just curious what build you were talking about, thanks for posting.

The weird thing is that the aggro is actually shockingly consistent. You’re right though, the honor tree is mostly balls. The only real reason to go into it at all is that AH makes tanking possible because of the massive passive heal.

I am wondering why the aggro has been so consistent tho’, I figured the build doesn’t get used for DPS reasons but if people have threat issues that makes more sense, I just wonder why that hasn’t been a problem when I’ve seen it, do fracs have modified aggro tables?

Windsagio.1340:

The weird thing is that the aggro is actually shockingly consistent. You’re right though, the honor tree is mostly balls. The only real reason to go into it at all is that AH makes tanking possible because of the massive passive heal.

I am wondering why the aggro has been so consistent tho’, I figured the build doesn’t get used for DPS reasons but if people have threat issues that makes more sense, I just wonder why that hasn’t been a problem when I’ve seen it, do fracs have modified aggro tables?

I use the AH hammer build as a training wheel for low level players in dungeons. You teach them how and where to pack, you attract mobs and you heal them while they deal miserable damage. Then they thank me for taking the time to teach them.

Then the painful lesson takes place in TA aether once they are level 80.

Which reinforces the point, tanking is possible and in fact works ><

I say let it die, let them add even more the meta to get rid of it once and for all. I’ve already stated this once but I can’t make it clear enough that if the don’t fix the inherent problems with PVE combat all the way through and fix the rewards problems this game faces I won’t be buying HoT They’ve had plenty of time and now that they are getting a steady influx of cash there is no excuse they have the time and money to clear these things up.

ODB.6891:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Simply put, because it’s currently one-dimensional. Pretty much everything has some situation where it is optimal, but current dungeon design only reflects a small portion of that.

Everything will have a meta, that is definite and unchangable. However, different content can have different metas. What I don’t understand is why some people are so vehemently against this idea.

Here are some examples of things they could do:

1. Boss has incredibly high armor. Assuming you must defeat the boss to advance, the meta for the path now includes Sinister/Carrion/Rabid condition builds; something currently absent from all dungeon metas right now.

2. NPC must be escorted with valuable cargo. Lots of ways to handle this one, with nuances increasing importance of DPS, healing, stealth, control, or defenses.

3. Spread out ranged enemies. Stack & smack tactics won’t work, so you have to survive pressure as you kill them.

All three of these are things that could be done to add variety. 5-zerk would still be able to complete the content, it just wouldn’t be optimal in those situations. If situations like these were mixed in along with situations we do see in dungeons, things would get a lot more interesting while still remaining doable by most compositions.

Okay:

Scenario 1. Now instead of holding a slot open specifically for a tank…you are now holding at least one slot open for a condi build. Still not a good thing. Still slows down group formation. Still restricts group composition (just as you said…a new meta). So either groups will be holding this slot for a pure condi build, will be looking for a condi build just for this one encounter/path, or will have someone swapping out for a condi character mid run…effectively wasting time getting a different character in to clear the content.

Scenario 2. I have yet to see an enjoyable implementation of a NPC escort mission. They are slow, they constantly back track after each fight, it takes control away from the players as far as success….if the npc stands in aoe or just happens to get focused. NPCs also glitch…which can be really annoying if you are looking for a fast run.

Scenario 3. Not a bad idea. Obviously favors toughness, vitality, healing power….but not a bad idea. This is already implemented in at least a few fractals…one in particular is the chanters/cultists on the final arch diviner fight on the cliff side fractal.

On the idea of scenario one restriction build compositions. The meta is ALREADY as restricted as it can get. Were not arguing that The total number of available builds will increase. What some are arguing is to increase the total number of available playstyles. (which will by the very nature add a significant number of potential builds to fulfill the role). Not everyone ENJOYS the beserker meta despite it being extremely easy to do. Or maybe BECAUSE its extremely easy to do. Some of us find it boring and linear as hell. And were hoping that the game can one day allow more than just the one playstyle to be effective.

Argon.1563:

If I see anybody in my open world parties to do world bosses/events running Berserker, in HoT, they’re getting kicked. Im not picking up corpses off the floor for half of HoT.

You gonna ask people to ping gear in open world? Good luck finding a party. Lol I don’t care what gear I was running, I’d gladly leave.

Zerk may not be for everyone, but plenty of people can run it without getting downed in open world. I’d rather pick someone up off the ground than party with someone that sticks their nose up another’s play style. That stuff can stay with the speed dungeon elitist community.

ODB.6891:

Okay:

Scenario 1. Now instead of holding a slot open specifically for a tank…you are now holding at least one slot open for a condi build. Still not a good thing. Still slows down group formation. Still restricts group composition (just as you said…a new meta). So either groups will be holding this slot for a pure condi build, will be looking for a condi build just for this one encounter/path, or will have someone swapping out for a condi character mid run…effectively wasting time getting a different character in to clear the content. Besides, the goal was not to remove having a meta, but rather having a different meta for that path.

Scenario 2. I have yet to see an enjoyable implementation of a NPC escort mission. They are slow, they constantly back track after each fight, it takes control away from the players as far as success….if the npc stands in aoe or just happens to get focused. NPCs also glitch…which can be really annoying if you are looking for a fast run.

Scenario 3. Not a bad idea. Obviously favors toughness, vitality, healing power….but not a bad idea. This is already implemented in at least a few fractals…one in particular is the chanters/cultists on the final arch diviner fight on the cliff side fractal.

For Scenario 1, how is it any different than what we have now? If you’re spending time looking for Zerker geared people, I would think it would be faster if you were looking for Zerker and/or Sinister, since you just doubled the number of acceptable builds. Heck, a condi Revenant and a condi Necro practically avoid any overlap for conditions (save poison) and can easily work together. That’s at least one profession that would be acceptable that currently just isn’t.

Scenario 2 depends greatly on how it’s implemented. For example, if the NPC just didn’t stop moving, the issues with them backtracking are nullified entirely and bugging out is greatly reduced. This one I agree is the most easily screwed up by the developers, but it can also be done beautifully. Implementation is key to this one being a good encounter.

Scenario 3 really is just the most obvious answer if you don’t want players stacking and mowing everything down. I’m surprised it’s not used more often, honestly.

the ONLY way to make Zerker less viable is Nerfing it or buffing all the other stats ALLOT.

i mean i don’t think there is any way to balance Fights where zerker is less effective.

Lets say you make the fight hard for zerkers and thx to this ALL the other builds are even MORE weaker on that fight. i mean if those zerker players who block and dodge perfectly at the right time dies fast what chance a Soilder Knight Clelic have ? they will survive ONE extra hit befor die while doing waaay less dmg ?

Zoltreez.6435:

the ONLY way to make Zerker less viable is Nerfing it or buffing all the other stats ALLOT.

i mean i don’t think there is any way to balance Fights where zerker is less effective.

Lets say you make the fight hard for zerkers and thx to this ALL the other builds are even MORE weaker on that fight. i mean if those zerker players who block and dodge perfectly at the right time dies fast what chance a Soilder Knight Clelic have ? they will survive ONE extra hit befor die while doing waaay less dmg ?

On the contrary, it’s quite easy to make fights where Zerker is less effective. Tequatl and triple trouble husks are both examples of where Zerker is not top dog.

On a better note, look at PvP and WvW. Zerker is rather unpopular in both because the risks associated with using it are much, much higher.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zoltreez.6435:

the ONLY way to make Zerker less viable is Nerfing it or buffing all the other stats ALLOT.

i mean i don’t think there is any way to balance Fights where zerker is less effective.

Lets say you make the fight hard for zerkers and thx to this ALL the other builds are even MORE weaker on that fight. i mean if those zerker players who block and dodge perfectly at the right time dies fast what chance a Soilder Knight Clelic have ? they will survive ONE extra hit befor die while doing waaay less dmg ?

On the contrary, it’s quite easy to make fights where Zerker is less effective. Tequatl and triple trouble husks are both examples of where Zerker is not top dog.

On a better note, look at PvP and WvW. Zerker is rather unpopular in both because the risks associated with using it are much, much higher.

so basicaly the only way to make them less usable is to make every single boss in game uncritable ?.

thats bad in my opinion there needs to be another way.

Well the most basic problem is that active defenses are too good for the fights, mainly because they intentionally try to keep the fights short because long fights are boring.

This both makes it easier to support continual active defenses, and also weakens conditions due to the ‘ramping up period’.

There’s a few ways they could hurt zerk, but all at the cost of hurting the rest of the game;

Lots of retaliation for instance, hurts zerk heavily. So would situational, but unavoidable damage (so you can’t stay in and DPS for long periods of time without stepping out, but you have longer dps windows with toughness or vitality — although this still has issues with being antimelee but not antiranged or vice versa)

There are certainly ways, but there’s always a somewhat sizable gameplay cost, which is why they’ve avoided it.

Plus they want to keep it viable, of course.