Guild Wars 2

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zoltreez.6435:

the ONLY way to make Zerker less viable is Nerfing it or buffing all the other stats ALLOT.

i mean i don’t think there is any way to balance Fights where zerker is less effective.

Lets say you make the fight hard for zerkers and thx to this ALL the other builds are even MORE weaker on that fight. i mean if those zerker players who block and dodge perfectly at the right time dies fast what chance a Soilder Knight Clelic have ? they will survive ONE extra hit befor die while doing waaay less dmg ?

On the contrary, it’s quite easy to make fights where Zerker is less effective. Tequatl and triple trouble husks are both examples of where Zerker is not top dog.

On a better note, look at PvP and WvW. Zerker is rather unpopular in both because the risks associated with using it are much, much higher.

Lol, I’m full zerk on tequila and I die less than the phiw whiteknights mopping the floor with their soldier armor and hoelbrak runes. On the double hit spot I might add, while they’re safe spotting from 1200 range. You can dodge every single attack but the poison pool and that one you have to walk out of it. So hard right?
Dunno about wurm, pugs can’t manage to complete it. Not the maps I happened to be in. Like 150 people, 120 being useless.
Full zer kon the new map, full zerk in wvw. I’m a terrible pv pplauyer, like the worst you can get, worse than rabbit and I still mop up scrubs like it’s nothing because they suck. Hell, I’m not good in pve either. I’m just a random guy that happens to find his way to the dodge button every once in a while.
Just face it, bads will be bads and average players will be average and manage to complete content successfully in glassy gear . No matter how much harder raids get. And they wont’ be hard, becuase else you’d be whining on the forums that they’re too hard while decent/average/good players complete it in their zerk/condi/assassin/whatever best gear there is for the fight.
Btw, you’d still get kicked from meta groups if say knight became the meta. You still wouldn’t play p/p thief in dire.
P.S. You want diversity? Everyone try out the spirits pigbow build while spirited. It’s so phiw it’s crazy, and go do fracs 50 with it. Do eeeet. Major fun.
P.P.S The hell am I still doing in this thread, phiws are going completely crazy, lol. Reflects scaling on healp, I thought I read it wrong because I’m out of it.

Zoltreez.6435:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zoltreez.6435:

the ONLY way to make Zerker less viable is Nerfing it or buffing all the other stats ALLOT.

i mean i don’t think there is any way to balance Fights where zerker is less effective.

Lets say you make the fight hard for zerkers and thx to this ALL the other builds are even MORE weaker on that fight. i mean if those zerker players who block and dodge perfectly at the right time dies fast what chance a Soilder Knight Clelic have ? they will survive ONE extra hit befor die while doing waaay less dmg ?

On the contrary, it’s quite easy to make fights where Zerker is less effective. Tequatl and triple trouble husks are both examples of where Zerker is not top dog.

On a better note, look at PvP and WvW. Zerker is rather unpopular in both because the risks associated with using it are much, much higher.

so basicaly the only way to make them less usable is to make every single boss in game uncritable ?.

thats bad in my opinion there needs to be another way.

As long as crit chance/damage exist as raw damage multipliers there is no other way. It’s a bad mechanic anyway, remove ferocity and crit chance ability to create extra damage, crit chance may remain but not as a raw damage multiplier but rather stat to trigger effects,make power more important then it becomes easier to control dps and dots potential. Of course the condition cap is still here but it’s not like propositions haven’t been made on that.

Harder mobs will change nothing even if they are OP by design. It’s common sense but if you want to put it to the test be my guest.

Sagat.3285:

Zoltreez.6435:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zoltreez.6435:

the ONLY way to make Zerker less viable is Nerfing it or buffing all the other stats ALLOT.

i mean i don’t think there is any way to balance Fights where zerker is less effective.

Lets say you make the fight hard for zerkers and thx to this ALL the other builds are even MORE weaker on that fight. i mean if those zerker players who block and dodge perfectly at the right time dies fast what chance a Soilder Knight Clelic have ? they will survive ONE extra hit befor die while doing waaay less dmg ?

On the contrary, it’s quite easy to make fights where Zerker is less effective. Tequatl and triple trouble husks are both examples of where Zerker is not top dog.

On a better note, look at PvP and WvW. Zerker is rather unpopular in both because the risks associated with using it are much, much higher.

so basicaly the only way to make them less usable is to make every single boss in game uncritable ?.

thats bad in my opinion there needs to be another way.

As long as crit chance/damage exist as raw damage multipliers there is no other way. It’s a bad mechanic anyway, remove ferocity and crit chance ability to create extra damage, crit chance may remain but not as a raw damage multiplier but rather stat to trigger effects,make power more important then it becomes easier to control dps and dots potential. Of course the condition cap is still here but it’s not like propositions haven’t been made on that.

Its also a good way to butcher thieves and mesmer with that change. Those classes NEED zerker to even do any respectable damage, all other gear stats will result in them being unable to fill their own roles.

Lifestealer.4910:

Sagat.3285:

Zoltreez.6435:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zoltreez.6435:

the ONLY way to make Zerker less viable is Nerfing it or buffing all the other stats ALLOT.

i mean i don’t think there is any way to balance Fights where zerker is less effective.

Lets say you make the fight hard for zerkers and thx to this ALL the other builds are even MORE weaker on that fight. i mean if those zerker players who block and dodge perfectly at the right time dies fast what chance a Soilder Knight Clelic have ? they will survive ONE extra hit befor die while doing waaay less dmg ?

On the contrary, it’s quite easy to make fights where Zerker is less effective. Tequatl and triple trouble husks are both examples of where Zerker is not top dog.

On a better note, look at PvP and WvW. Zerker is rather unpopular in both because the risks associated with using it are much, much higher.

so basicaly the only way to make them less usable is to make every single boss in game uncritable ?.

thats bad in my opinion there needs to be another way.

As long as crit chance/damage exist as raw damage multipliers there is no other way. It’s a bad mechanic anyway, remove ferocity and crit chance ability to create extra damage, crit chance may remain but not as a raw damage multiplier but rather stat to trigger effects,make power more important then it becomes easier to control dps and dots potential. Of course the condition cap is still here but it’s not like propositions haven’t been made on that.

Its also a good way to butcher thieves and mesmer with that change. Those classes NEED zerker to even do any respectable damage, all other gear stats will result in them being unable to fill their own roles.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/PvX-Discussion-about-stats/first#post4838291

I main a thief btw. There should be no gear stats combos just gives us freedom. Who can prove it’s balanced to have full dps combo but no full tank,heal or condi and expect stats to compete properly??

Zoltreez.6435:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zoltreez.6435:

the ONLY way to make Zerker less viable is Nerfing it or buffing all the other stats ALLOT.

i mean i don’t think there is any way to balance Fights where zerker is less effective.

Lets say you make the fight hard for zerkers and thx to this ALL the other builds are even MORE weaker on that fight. i mean if those zerker players who block and dodge perfectly at the right time dies fast what chance a Soilder Knight Clelic have ? they will survive ONE extra hit befor die while doing waaay less dmg ?

On the contrary, it’s quite easy to make fights where Zerker is less effective. Tequatl and triple trouble husks are both examples of where Zerker is not top dog.

On a better note, look at PvP and WvW. Zerker is rather unpopular in both because the risks associated with using it are much, much higher.

so basicaly the only way to make them less usable is to make every single boss in game uncritable ?.

thats bad in my opinion there needs to be another way.

Hence why I pointed to PvP/WvW. All players are crittable (save eles with one trait camping earth attunement), yet Zerker is not top dog in those areas. Clearly, something is different there from PvE for the vast difference in efficacy.

Also, Husks are very crittable, but their armor is astronomical so even crits don’t do that much.

There are a number of other ways as well. Higher pressure damage with lower spike dissuades Zerker. High armor (like Husks) dissuades Zerker. Uncrittable dissuades Zerker. Having to keep something else alive dissuades Zerker.

Making zerker not be the end-all-be-all is downright simple. The challenge is to manage that, while not making it obsolete.

People would hate PvP style enemies, if would feel unfair if the computer were both smart enough to be effective and had full open access to the player skills at player cooldowns.

Windsagio.1340:

People would hate PvP style enemies, if would feel unfair if the computer were both smart enough to be effective and had full open access to the player skills at player cooldowns.

If a player can do it so should a mob, enough with the single boss encounters as well. Unfair??? I tough pve was supposed to be a challenge we are not talking mobs like the pvp npcs but everything a player can achieve like condi tank,AoE leech,boon reaper,tanky AI,dodge,parties etc. As long as crit exist to multiply damage it will be superior because of the condition cap,lazy way would be to make multiple uncritable bosses.

It’s either player style or gut down crit potential.

Sagat.3285:

If a player can do it so should a mob, enough with the single boss encounters as well. Unfair??? I tough pve was supposed to be a challenge we are not talking mobs like the pvp npcs but everything a player can achieve like condi tank,AoE leech,boon reaper,tanky AI,dodge,parties etc. As long as crit exist to multiply damage it will be superior because of the condition cap,lazy way would be to make multiple uncritable bosses.

It’s either player style or gut down crit potential.

Yes but pve players don’t play pvp because they don’t want to leave their comfort zone. Now, if you bring pvp into pve you just make their world miserable.

Adding more pvp to pve would help bring in the small pvp demographic in to pve more.

They can use the same one build they are familiar witth, they are already familiar with standing in the same small area. The only problem is to keep these players from leaving the game the moment they are outnumbered by mobs and running off to the forums to complain about broken matchmaking.

Might also be a big shock when they don’t get their gear for free anymore.

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

If a player can do it so should a mob, enough with the single boss encounters as well. Unfair??? I tough pve was supposed to be a challenge we are not talking mobs like the pvp npcs but everything a player can achieve like condi tank,AoE leech,boon reaper,tanky AI,dodge,parties etc. As long as crit exist to multiply damage it will be superior because of the condition cap,lazy way would be to make multiple uncritable bosses.

It’s either player style or gut down crit potential.

Yes but pve players don’t play pvp because they don’t want to leave their comfort zone. Now, if you bring pvp into pve you just make their world miserable.

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

Sagat.3285:

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

No, I’m saying that pve players expect from pve something else than pvp-like gameplay, e.g. bigger numbers, usually only one boss fought at the time, winning most of the time (instead of ~50%), etc.

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

No, I’m saying that pve players expect from pve something else than pvp-like gameplay, e.g. bigger numbers, usually only one boss fought at the time, winning most of the time (instead of ~50%), etc.

#fail

Challenging group content huh? Can a dev confirm this is the direction the pve in this game will take so we can stop trying, just end it now and be honest.

Regardless the outcome, it’s going to be…very interesting.

…I’m going to need to start carrying more armor around. As if three sets weren’t enough…

Sagat.3285:

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

No, I’m saying that pve players expect from pve something else than pvp-like gameplay, e.g. bigger numbers, usually only one boss fought at the time, winning most of the time (instead of ~50%), etc.

#fail

Challenging group content huh? Can a dev confirm this is the direction the pve in this game will take so we can stop trying, just end it now and be honest.

#wrong #win

Rotten is correct, the objective in PvE is to win 100% of the time. That’s the entire point of the speed runs people flock to forums to cry about…to win and do it quickly. I’m 100% sure non zerk also wants to win and do it fairly quickly….they just want to do it in their comfort zone, with extremely low chances of failure…hence the safety net stats. I also draw this conclusion from their constant attempts to slip into those few runs that are still posted as zerk only or speed runs. Its amazing that all of this zerk hate originates from something this simple. This massive desire to “hurt zerk” as was so aptly phrased in a previous post. Someone previous even correctly summed this up, that the only place the zerk meta even exists is in “developer abandoned content”…dungeons and fractals. Yet, you constantly see threads out there specifically wanting to punish players for playing with berserker gear. Since the new content we are talking about is all open world, why does it even matter to you all what any specific player is wearing? It would be a more relevant issue if we were still treating fractal 50 as the hot content in the game…or even if fractals were the source of the game’s best rewards now…neither is the case.

ODB.6891:

Sagat.3285:

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

No, I’m saying that pve players expect from pve something else than pvp-like gameplay, e.g. bigger numbers, usually only one boss fought at the time, winning most of the time (instead of ~50%), etc.

#fail

Challenging group content huh? Can a dev confirm this is the direction the pve in this game will take so we can stop trying, just end it now and be honest.

#wrong #win

Rotten is correct, the objective in PvE is to win 100% of the time. That’s the entire point of the speed runs people flock to forums to cry about…to win and do it quickly. I’m 100% sure non zerk also wants to win and do it fairly quickly….they just want to do it in their comfort zone, with extremely low chances of failure…hence the safety net stats. I also draw this conclusion from their constant attempts to slip into those few runs that are still posted as zerk only or speed runs. Its amazing that all of this zerk hate originates from something this simple. This massive desire to “hurt zerk” as was so aptly phrased in a previous post. Someone previous even correctly summed this up, that the only place the zerk meta even exists is in “developer abandoned content”…dungeons and fractals. Yet, you constantly see threads out there specifically wanting to punish players for playing with berserker gear. Since the new content we are talking about is all open world, why does it even matter to you all what any specific player is wearing? It would be a more relevant issue if we were still treating fractal 50 as the hot content in the game…or even if fractals were the source of the game’s best rewards now…neither is the case.

I just want to hear it from them so I should always underestimate the word “challenging” from them in context or not, not the only thing I will ignore but stop trying to fool people be kitten honest.

So for everyone to speed run through pve you create 3 dps stats,an environment for them to dominate and impair other stats? Good show! Might as well end this thread, all I need is a red tag saying :“Yes this is what we want and will promote.”.

Sagat.3285:

I just want to hear it from them so I should always underestimate the word “challenging” from them in context or not, not the only thing I will ignore but stop trying to fool people be kitten honest.

So for everyone to speed run through pve you create 3 dps stats,an environment for them to dominate and impair other stats? Good show! Might as well end this thread, all I need is a red tag saying :“Yes this is what we want and will promote.”.

I think the issue with this concept of “challenging” is that what is challenging is extremely subjective. It definitely does not have to mean make everything into PvP to become challenging. Everyone does not find PvP to be fun. In Fact, there are reasons why PvE and PvP are two separate game modes. Just like someone else said, if people wanted to play PvP, they would go play PvP and not PvE.

The fact that there are different gear sets, with different levels of inherent survivability, makes it extremely difficult to make content that is equally challenging/difficult for everyone. They accomplish it for sets like berserker/assassins by liberal helpings of one shot mechanics…a single mistake has you eating the floor. Soldiers/Nomad/Cleric trivializes that content as the entire purpose of those sets is to make your character nearly unkillable. The only solutions I can think of to giving equal levels of “challenge” to all would be to implement gimmick mechanics…which get really old really fast, to implement the PvP type solution in PvE…which will turn off your PvE players, or to perhaps take off some of your survivability gear so that you too…can experience the risk/challenge factor that zerk/assassins does. At the end of the day, players chose their gear/stat combo for a reason. The only possible reason for choosing high vitality, toughness stats is to reduce the likelihood of death/defeat…mission accomplished. The reason for choosing zerk/assassins is to play on the edge while putting out max damage…mission accomplished. If zerk/assassins players want less “challenge”, then they add some survivability gear into the mix and re-trait into more survival. The opposite should be true as well….versus wanting everyone and everything else to change to accommodate your desire for more challenge….make a change to yourselves.

Just to point this out though…the existence of other stats (berserker, assassins, etc) does not “impair” survival stats. Toughness is still the same toughness/resistance to damage…whether power/precision/ferocity exists or not. The same with vitality and healing power. Saying that one stat combo “impairs” another would be like saying that the existence of toughness/vitality/healing power in PvP modes impairs the combo of power/precision/ferocity in those modes.

Shiren.9532:

The solution to retaliation is just as viable in zerk parties as it is in nomad parties. Boon stripping doesn’t require toughness or vitality or healing or condi, it simply requires a single skill or sigil or weapon (just like reflect).

Exactly….this can’t be any more fair…all gear sets equal in this respect.

The power level of non-zerk stats needs to be raised and the pie of things that benefit from stats needs to be evenly distributed across all the stats, not primarily giving everything to zerk.

Think about it, how many on crit effects are there? How many % damage traits and sigils are there? How many skills scale off of power or crit damage (reflects)? All of these things work off of zerk stats and there are almost no defensive equivalents. Think about this, zerk benefits more from Might and Fury than the other stat combos. Zerk also benefits more from protection than any combo with toughness (due to more incoming damage blocked). The only boon that is superior without a zerk build is Regeneration.

Ask those same questions of toughness, vitality and to a lesser extent healing power. Zerk isn’t just high risk high reward, it’s stats have the biggest piece of the design pie when it comes to additional effects and ways to push its power level. There is just more variety and depth to what zerk stats do for you.

The underlying issue here is diminishing returns. I’m pretty sure they don’t want players to be completely immune to death. That’s the direction you are heading when you request bigger benefits to existing survival stats. What else can they possibly do to make stats that only exist to keep you from dying…get more effective? Of course protection benefits zerk more than soldiers/clerics/nomad…because soldiers/clerics/nomad are approaching the limit to survivability that ANET is willing to allow already…before protection is even applied.

As far as “on crit effects” go, what’s the alternative….“on hit effects”? That would get to the point where you may as well just make it an always on aura.

Percent damage traits and sigils. I can’t see a problem with this…as any build can use these. Ultimately the goal is to kill mobs. This helps soldier/cleric/nomad builds as well…to contribute to this ultimate goal of killing mobs. What’s your suggestion here? Something to make toughness/vitality/healing power more effective instead of allowing more damage to be done? That’s still not going to make soldier/cleric/nomad more desirable in “developer abandoned content”…it only pushes them closer to the immune to death status.

Your question of how many skills scale off of power/crit/ferocity? Pretty much just one…reflects. If this is such a point of contention…how would you suggest that this be resolved? How could toughness/vitality/healing power work with reflects and not be completely overpowered? Should the party get additional toughness/healing from having enemy attacks reflected or from attacking through/standing in reflects? It seems like overkill considering the entire purpose of the reflect is to keep the party from taking the damage to begin with.

Yes, zerk type stats do have the most dynamic effects in the game, but I’m completely stumped on how that could possibly be any different due to the nature of the stats in question. There is going to be a logical limit to how close ANET is going to allow a player to get to death immunity.

Sagat.3285:

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

No, I’m saying that pve players expect from pve something else than pvp-like gameplay, e.g. bigger numbers, usually only one boss fought at the time, winning most of the time (instead of ~50%), etc.

#fail

Challenging group content huh? Can a dev confirm this is the direction the pve in this game will take so we can stop trying, just end it now and be honest.

I prefer challenging content as well that focuses on individual skill but over the past few years Anet clearly wanted PvE to be faceroll which is why the only major contents are the ez mode living story and the “challenging” world bosses with quotation because If I call zerging with thousands of people while afk watching TV is challenging that I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night.

@Shiren, Et al.

The essential problem is that for pure damage to be viable, it has to be the fastest. If it’s not faster than play with more defensive stats than it has no advantage at all, at least to people min/maxing.

The imbalance between damage types being 1 thing, the other bit is pretty hard to solve without messing up gameplay in a more general manner.

The steps they’re taking (weakening stability, normalizing CC) are huge steps in the direction of making pure zerker groups take a substantial skill jump, but there’s still quite a ways to go on that front, and the path isn’t remotely clear.

Lifestealer.4910:

Sagat.3285:

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

No, I’m saying that pve players expect from pve something else than pvp-like gameplay, e.g. bigger numbers, usually only one boss fought at the time, winning most of the time (instead of ~50%), etc.

#fail

Challenging group content huh? Can a dev confirm this is the direction the pve in this game will take so we can stop trying, just end it now and be honest.

I prefer challenging content as well that focuses on individual skill but over the past few years Anet clearly wanted PvE to be faceroll which is why the only major contents are the ez mode living story and the “challenging” world bosses with quotation because If I call zerging with thousands of people while afk watching TV is challenging that I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night.

I think it’s all but explicit. PVE is meant to be accessible, if you want the upper limits of skilled play PvP was always the intended route.

Shiren.9532:

Windsagio.1340:

Lots of retaliation for instance, hurts zerk heavily.

The solution to retaliation is just as viable in zerk parties as it is in nomad parties. Boon stripping doesn’t require toughness or vitality or healing or condi, it simply requires a single skill or sigil or weapon (just like reflect).

.

That can easily be changed if anet wants to. They can makes a boss that reapplys the boon every sencond or a boon that you can’t strip. Like the assassins in cof p2 for example. You cannot remove their stab. Or just create a new effect for some specific bosses, that works like retal but is not a boon.

Windsagio.1340:

Lifestealer.4910:

Sagat.3285:

rotten.9753:

Sagat.3285:

Are you saying pve should be a walk in the park or some kind of daily grinding ??? I didn’t mention open pvp in pve nor npc trainer mobs. Elaborate on your statement I don’t understand … You want pve to be a tag along spam fest please explain .

They will adapt like they always do stop thinking they need training wheels pve can be challenging as well. Can a 100% pve player tell me what is your comfort zone???

No, I’m saying that pve players expect from pve something else than pvp-like gameplay, e.g. bigger numbers, usually only one boss fought at the time, winning most of the time (instead of ~50%), etc.

#fail

Challenging group content huh? Can a dev confirm this is the direction the pve in this game will take so we can stop trying, just end it now and be honest.

I prefer challenging content as well that focuses on individual skill but over the past few years Anet clearly wanted PvE to be faceroll which is why the only major contents are the ez mode living story and the “challenging” world bosses with quotation because If I call zerging with thousands of people while afk watching TV is challenging that I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night.

I think it’s all but explicit. PVE is meant to be accessible, if you want the upper limits of skilled play PvP was always the intended route.

There are ways to make things accessible without removing any sort of tension in them. When I go to a world boss or even the new silverwaste, I am in no danger whatsoever. The chances of death is almost zero percent because every thing is done in a way so a person who is partially afk can still faceroll everything.

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

Nah, they’ll finaly have a variety. A variety of either nomad’s or sentinel’s.

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period.

Agreed, zerker meta is not a cause, but merely a symptom of the real problem. the real problem lies in Anet trying to marry the old style stat gear (and stat gear variance) with a combat system that is action, not stat based. Which simply doesn’t work well.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

ODB.6891:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The alternative is that they change encounters in dungeon paths so that what is optimal for one encounter is not optimal for another in the same path. If the most efficient way to handle a dungeon path is with a wide variety of builds (including gear, because gear is an important part), rather than 5 glass cannon (and yes, it is possible to manage this without forcing certain builds), then I would say that’s a pretty healthy meta. Everything is important to bring because, at some point, it will be the most efficient thing to have.

This is exactly what I’m referring to. Why is it so important to “fix” what isn’t broken? What possible justification can there be for this, than to make content harder for one specific play style? Its not as if nomads can’t clear the content. If everyone can clear the content, with no major issues, what exactly is it that needs fixing? Honestly, what I’m reading between the lines in these posts, is that people want to have their cake and eat it too. They want their selfish stats like vitality and toughness to somehow be valuable to groups. Making that happen will only introduce negatives into the game. Those negatives would be tanking requirements and reduction in freedom in group composition. It would be absolutely terrible to have to hold a slot in groups for someone who can tank. It would open up more requests/requirements to link gear and builds to qualify for that slot. You may as well add an inspect feature in the game if you go this route. I’m pretty sure phiw would not like that. I’m sorry, but I think people should stop complaining and trying to come up with ideas to fix what isn’t broken.

Simply put, because it’s currently one-dimensional. Pretty much everything has some situation where it is optimal, but current dungeon design only reflects a small portion of that.

Everything will have a meta, that is definite and unchangable. However, different content can have different metas. What I don’t understand is why some people are so vehemently against this idea.

Here are some examples of things they could do:

1. Boss has incredibly high armor. Assuming you must defeat the boss to advance, the meta for the path now includes Sinister/Carrion/Rabid condition builds; something currently absent from all dungeon metas right now.

2. NPC must be escorted with valuable cargo. Lots of ways to handle this one, with nuances increasing importance of DPS, healing, stealth, control, or defenses.

3. Spread out ranged enemies. Stack & smack tactics won’t work, so you have to survive pressure as you kill them.

All three of these are things that could be done to add variety. 5-zerk would still be able to complete the content, it just wouldn’t be optimal in those situations. If situations like these were mixed in along with situations we do see in dungeons, things would get a lot more interesting while still remaining doable by most compositions.

For the sake of enforcing build diversity you are basically suggesting a system that increases frustration and decreases fun.

There’s a reason why they didn’t go with the holy trinity for this game. Forcing people to have specific setups for specific encounters would just reintroduce all the traditional frustrations and annoyances that come with the old school MMOs.

The whole point of GW2 is to allow people to have their own builds and while not optimal still be able to experience most if not all the content. Forcing specific builds for specific encounters not only makes group formation tedious but promotes greater elitism with gear checks and role calls etc.

I don’t think you really thought about the consequences of what you espouse.

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

OP mobs will change nothing,only way is either player like encounters(anything a player can do so should a mob) or removal of crit and improvements of condition cap.

Zerker should definitely remain along with other glass cannon sets, the fastest ways to complete content in conjunction with player skill and DPS focused builds. The following should hold true in all modes for glass cannon builds:

Play Well or Outplay Enemies/Content —>DPS down --> Win
Play OK/Poorly or Outplayed by Enemies/Content —> Get DPSed Downed --> Fail

However, the vast difference in time and energy it takes to complete content even if you have 1-2 non-zerkers in a zerk group, can be staggering or at the very least noticeable. So much so that most content gets harder, not easier the less Zerker DPS builds are involved. That’s why Zerk meta is so prevalent and overwhelming in all PvE content. The blame can be squarely put on the actual design of trash/boss AI, bad pathing, timed ability usage, lack of condi/boon manipulation and the lack of constant anti-player pressure.

It would be like having an imaginary class in PvP that has light armor, no heals, no cc, can’t be affected by cc, no boons, uses no conditions and mostly uses an easily avoidable auto attack. It does have 100-300K hp and two AoE skills that are easily telegraphed every 20-30 seconds. If there was a team of this class trying to hold points in PvP what do you think would be the most optimal meta to combat it? Zerker meta. Anything else would just be “wasting time” as the PvE boss-like class stands on points winning games through attrition.

Instead in PvP/WvW players use classes that have a whole host of different abilities, pressure and manipulation to counter a variety of builds. Thus player skill, build and strategy determines above all if a glass cannon build comes out on top or vice versa. Meaning more build/gear diversity and acceptance.

What most people who are said to be “anti-zerk” are really asking for is trash mobs/bosses that are less dependent on massive health bars and periodic large DPS attacks. Instead they should be more dependent on much smaller health bars, but constant pressure, evades, boons, condis and interskill usage (like trash/bosses healing/supporting eachother and themselves). Skilled Zerker teams would still be able to complete all this content the fastest through smart prioritizing, skill/debuff usage, positioning etc.

The difference would be that other team makeups doing the same with similar skill would be much less behind the eight ball on speed. They would be able to bring an attrition mindset to completing content without it taking 30min-hour extra time, or failing because there’s not enough DPS to kill a boss+trash before teammates start making mistakes and start getting one or two shotted (Zerker meta is very good at avoiding this due to the very speed of encounters and lack of constant pressure over those short time frames).

HoT is being advertised as being the most challenging content yet in GW2. The above is what needs to happen if they want more challenging encounters that also promote gear/build diversity. So far we’re seeing signs of Anet moving in this direction with things like the new defiance, but whether it will be successful is anyone’s guess. Making enemy AI use combat mechanics to their fullest isn’t only difficult for developers to design, but I would guess it’s difficult on server performance as well. Which may be the main reason why we have never seen a lot of boons/condi/pressure usage by AI in PvE.

The redesign can’t be situation either where say one part of a dungeon can only be done by zerker and another by lets say apothecary (heavy pressure situation where you need to heal a lot of allies, NPCs, yourself and only condi damage works). What would end up happening is gear checks for both zerker and apothecary for that dungeon path and people would be expected to switch sets accordingly.

Make conditions mobs (like the Husks) be lot more common and more area damage so heals are needed and with taunt coming you may need some sort of tank and you got fun and mix party requirement :D

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

The “Zerker Problem” has, is, and always will be, people.

Sagat.3285:

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

OP mobs will change nothing,only way is either player like encounters(anything a player can do so should a mob) or removal of crit and improvements of condition cap.

I’m fairly certain that the only things mobs do not have in their toolkit of abilities in PvE are dodges and smart positioning. As far as removal of crit goes…if that’s okay to remove a core stat….then I guess that means its equally fair to remove toughness?

Killface.1896:

Make conditions mobs (like the Husks) be lot more common and more area damage so heals are needed and with taunt coming you may need some sort of tank and you got fun and mix party requirement

I’ll point out the problems with what you just said:

1. so heals are needed
2. you may need some sort of tank
3. mix party requirement

Balekai.6083:

…snip…

One major reason for ANET staying away from the whole “constant anti-player pressure” idea would be that implementing this would automatically switch the meta to survival gear and drastically slow down the pace of the game. If this constant incoming damage was unavoidable, it would immediately invalidate any gear set without toughness/vitality…especially on low base hp professions. I don’t see how that could possibly be a good thing. Currently anyone can clear the content…that change to adding constant unavoidable area damage, would break that truth.

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

I’m still struggling with the whole desire to nerf zerker to begin with. All the suggestions to make it harder to play in a specific gear set. You never hear anyone cry…nerf soldier or nerf nomad. No one wants to make it hard for players in survival gear to survive, but they want to make it hard for players in dps gear to dps.

Hooray, trolls on both side are now polluting this thread.

I’m grabbing my popcorn waiting moderation to close this mess.

More seriously : Some people (or should I say trolls ?) are confusing good and bad players with “player using berserker” and “player not using berserker”.

Some forum members should also remember that not everyone is capable of dodging everything, nor does everyone has the master race PC or a nice and lag-less internet connection.

Large events like the wurm or tequatl put heavy constraints on some users’ PC. Meaning that you can experience lag/framedrop. Thus you CAN’T DODGE EVERYTHING because you cannot see the bloody attack or shockwave or poison pool. In this case, it might be better to have something tough enough not to be one-shot by everything.

Also, this complain about berserker problem arise from a simple observation :

• In WvW there are CC builds, tanky builds and glass canon roaming builds (direct damage or condition). All of them are considered “meta”
• In sPvP there are bunker builds, dps builds, condi builds. “meta” is a wonky notion here since battle awareness and skill are what makes the difference. The build helps but there is always room for variation.
• In PvE only maximum direct dps is considered “meta”. Lots of builds have “offensive support” and “defensive support”, but in the end you have one (sometimes two) optimal templates to follow.

So there’s not a lot of variety in PvE leading to boredom and a bit of frustration. Having condition glass canon builds viable could be nice. Just look at the “dungeon builds” section of metabattle.com . Compare it with roaming or ranked arena builds sections. It’s a bit empty isn’kitten That’s a problem

Just to make sure that nobody gets it wrong : the problem is NOT berserker. The problem is lack of variety.

VodCom.6924:

Having condition glass canon builds viable could be nice. Just look at the “dungeon builds” section of metabattle.com . Compare it with roaming or ranked arena builds sections. It’s a bit empty isn’kitten That’s a problem

Just to make sure that nobody gets it wrong : the problem is NOT berserker. The problem is lack of variety.

metabattle….

glass canon condition builds are viable.

but still, the problem is not “lack of variety” or stats not being “viable”. the variety is there and other stats than berserker are viable.

but there is a big big difference between variety and optimal and there is a big big difference between viable and optimal.
most people dont know what optimal, variety and viable means.
even in trinity MMOs, there are like 2 optimal builds per role and class.
thats how it works in PvE in every game.

the real problem is:
- people dont know how PvE works and especially how the combat system and PvE works in gw2
- people want to roleplay a trinity in gw2
- bad players with builds that suit their skill level want to be as efficient as good players in berserker gear

and you are not going to fix any of these problems except if all of the sudden brain falls from the sky.

ODB.6891:

Sagat.3285:

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

OP mobs will change nothing,only way is either player like encounters(anything a player can do so should a mob) or removal of crit and improvements of condition cap.

I’m fairly certain that the only things mobs do not have in their toolkit of abilities in PvE are dodges and smart positioning. As far as removal of crit goes…if that’s okay to remove a core stat….then I guess that means its equally fair to remove toughness?

Sure 3 dps stats while 1 for the rest,genius even!! Again only 2 ways, look at pvp and wvw zerkers,also stop with single boss encounters, I need the devs to confirm what type of pve they want so I can stop…

Btw the toughness response had nothing to support it..core stat…sure.

Sagat.3285:

ODB.6891:

Sagat.3285:

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

OP mobs will change nothing,only way is either player like encounters(anything a player can do so should a mob) or removal of crit and improvements of condition cap.

I’m fairly certain that the only things mobs do not have in their toolkit of abilities in PvE are dodges and smart positioning. As far as removal of crit goes…if that’s okay to remove a core stat….then I guess that means its equally fair to remove toughness?

Sure 3 dps stats while 1 for the rest,genius even!! Again only 2 ways, look at pvp and wvw zerkers,also stop with single boss encounters, I need the devs to confirm what type of pve they want so I can stop…

Btw the toughness response had nothing to support it..core stat…sure.

there is a reason PvE is PvE and not wvw or pvp.

and btw, wildstar had bosses in adventures that act like “players”, or i should say monkeys. and you know what? they were easier than the normal bosses and all what their “dodging” did was making the fight longer than needed and extremely anti-fun and boring.

“also stop with single boss encounters”

k, and then? do you think multiple bosses at the same time would change anything? no. good players would still kill them in berserker gear.

NoTrigger.8396:

Sagat.3285:

ODB.6891:

Sagat.3285:

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

OP mobs will change nothing,only way is either player like encounters(anything a player can do so should a mob) or removal of crit and improvements of condition cap.

I’m fairly certain that the only things mobs do not have in their toolkit of abilities in PvE are dodges and smart positioning. As far as removal of crit goes…if that’s okay to remove a core stat….then I guess that means its equally fair to remove toughness?

Sure 3 dps stats while 1 for the rest,genius even!! Again only 2 ways, look at pvp and wvw zerkers,also stop with single boss encounters, I need the devs to confirm what type of pve they want so I can stop…

Btw the toughness response had nothing to support it..core stat…sure.

there is a reason PvE is PvE and not wvw or pvp.

and btw, wildstar had bosses in adventures that act like “players”, or i should say monkeys. and you know what? they were easier than the normal bosses and all what their “dodging” did was making the fight longer than needed and extremely anti-fun and boring.

“also stop with single boss encounters”

k, and then? do you think multiple bosses at the same time would change anything? no. good players would still kill them in berserker gear.

PvP like encounters…players are not hp sponge,I don’t I have ever seen 5 zerkers beat other 5 mix and match easy,you called PvP boring..,players are responsive,you deny that that 3 dps stats are not currently unbalanced and again players are not hp sponge. Are you a 100% pve player?? I can’t see the pride.

Edit: You think what we have now is fun? What’s your definition of fun…??

ODB.6891:

Balekai.6083:

…snip…

One major reason for ANET staying away from the whole “constant anti-player pressure” idea would be that implementing this would automatically switch the meta to survival gear and drastically slow down the pace of the game. If this constant incoming damage was unavoidable, it would immediately invalidate any gear set without toughness/vitality…especially on low base hp professions. I don’t see how that could possibly be a good thing. Currently anyone can clear the content…that change to adding constant unavoidable area damage, would break that truth.

The pressure should not be completely unavoidable, but it should be constant like PvP/WvW. That’s not what I’m talking about. Constant pressure doesn’t mean constant damage, but at the very least the constant threat of damage. Nor does constant damage in of itself necessarily mean that zerker teams will fail. They still have access to all the same skills and abilities other builds have, they would just have to use them a lot smarter and defensively than they already do in order to survive.

The idea isn’t to switch the meta, but to universalize the meta by bringing zerker meta and other team metas closer together when it comes to speed and difficulty. At the moment Zerker meta wins both in speed and difficulty (easier) by such a wide margin that it’s the answer to almost all PvE problems.

Again, the key to doing this is to get away from easily telegraphed, high DPS, sporadic boss/mob abilities with massive health bars governing difficulty. Instead it should be replaced by much lower healthbars on trash/bosses, but greater use of boons, conditions, counters, evades, heals and sustained pressure to make up for this. Similar to players.

A skilled zerker team should still be able to use their greater skill at positioning, while using utilities and mob priority to get through the challenge fast and efficiently. Instead of just DPSing a huge healthbar down as efficiently as possible, they would be required to strip defenses and use debuffs/cc to their fullest to mitigate incoming pressure. Then DPS down the much lower and now unprotected health bars of new trash/boss content. Just as zerker does in PvP/WvW and many zerker already play this way for efficiency sake in PvE.

If they don’t then their glass cannon builds/team fails. That’s supposed to be the benefit and consequence of glass cannon builds. Outplay and out DPS the enemy before you die.

Non-DPS focused or balanced teams would and should quite frankly have an easier time countering and surviving such encounters, just like PvP/WvW. If they have the same skill as a zerker team they should be able to complete content in near similar time frames, but at greater ease because they struggle less with pressure. Survival based teams that don’t counter AI countermeasures should end up dying to attrition or getting stuck in perpetual battles (taking much longer to complete). The same way zerker teams that don’t counter AI countermeasures would end up likely dying to mistakes or pressure if they go in randomly blasting off DPS.

As the game stands right now. A zerker team and a balanced team could apply all the same strategies at the same skill level, with the only difference being DPS output due to gear. Because large unprotected hp pools are used as defensive difficulty for simplicity (and probably server performance) sake, the zerker team is rewarded for super high DPS taking mere seconds to kill most content. While the balanced teams are punished in the same instance taking minutes to get through that same insane healthbars, because they lack crazy DPS to limit the phases and keep ability use of trash/bosses to a minimum (one or two extra boss phases can add 5-10minutes to a fight alone).

Like my example in my last post. If you had a team in PvP that consisted of enemy players standing on a point mostly immuned to cc, with access to only 1-2 long CD specials attacks, auto attack and a gazillion hp, the counter meta would always be zerk to get them off point. Instead in PvP/WvW players have much lower hp pools but use combat mechanics to their fullest to counter their enemies. Which is why there is build/gear diversity. Zerker geared players still win in WvW/PvP game modes when they play smarter and focus fire.

The only way introducing more challenging mechanics would slow down the pace of the game, is if they introduced more challenging mechanics while still keeping high hp pools. That would kill zerker/glass cannon since they wouldn’t be able to survive the attrition capabilities of AI long enough to kill enemies before mistakes were made or pressure simply kills them. Balanced/defensive teams would be required, but artificially large hp on mobs would make things very slow. That’s the big danger of attempting to fix PvE and why it’s so hard. Balancing that out.

ODB.6891:

hybrid.5027:

I like how people are trying to solve the zerker “problem.” News flash: it’s not a “problem.” Glass cannon builds are the end result of a game with active defenses and classes who are self-sufficient on healing. Period. This is not only not a problem, it is actually a good thing and a step forward in MMO design.

If you really want to nerf zerker, introduce new content so challenging that the bad players who wear zerker and get carried by their DPS have to take off the zerker to survive. But be careful what you wish for.

I’m still struggling with the whole desire to nerf zerker to begin with. All the suggestions to make it harder to play in a specific gear set. You never hear anyone cry…nerf soldier or nerf nomad. No one wants to make it hard for players in survival gear to survive, but they want to make it hard for players in dps gear to dps.

That’s pretty easy, if one set is out of balance, it’s reasonable to want them balanced.

The problem of balance is actually very difficult in GW2 because of the philosophies around their gameplay.

It being so easy to DPS wrecks balance between gear and playstyles, plus it in some cases trivializes encounters.

From a strict design standpoint it’s something that needs some kind of fixing, the problem is fixing it while keeping pure DPS builds (not just zerk/assassin, note, all pure dps) viable.

Its not out of balance. The content is just old and too easy for bad players to do well in glass gear. Gear is not the problem.

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Simply put, because it’s currently one-dimensional. Pretty much everything has some situation where it is optimal, but current dungeon design only reflects a small portion of that.

Everything will have a meta, that is definite and unchangable. However, different content can have different metas. What I don’t understand is why some people are so vehemently against this idea.

Here are some examples of things they could do:

1. Boss has incredibly high armor. Assuming you must defeat the boss to advance, the meta for the path now includes Sinister/Carrion/Rabid condition builds; something currently absent from all dungeon metas right now.

2. NPC must be escorted with valuable cargo. Lots of ways to handle this one, with nuances increasing importance of DPS, healing, stealth, control, or defenses.

3. Spread out ranged enemies. Stack & smack tactics won’t work, so you have to survive pressure as you kill them.

All three of these are things that could be done to add variety. 5-zerk would still be able to complete the content, it just wouldn’t be optimal in those situations. If situations like these were mixed in along with situations we do see in dungeons, things would get a lot more interesting while still remaining doable by most compositions.

For the sake of enforcing build diversity you are basically suggesting a system that increases frustration and decreases fun.

There’s a reason why they didn’t go with the holy trinity for this game. Forcing people to have specific setups for specific encounters would just reintroduce all the traditional frustrations and annoyances that come with the old school MMOs.

The whole point of GW2 is to allow people to have their own builds and while not optimal still be able to experience most if not all the content. Forcing specific builds for specific encounters not only makes group formation tedious but promotes greater elitism with gear checks and role calls etc.

I don’t think you really thought about the consequences of what you espouse.

I have thought about the consequences of each of those ideas, which is why I maintain that they would all be good to the game.

For the first one, think about Husks. You can beat them easily enough with Zerker gear, but you do it significantly faster with a condition build instead. Since the meta is all about efficiency, a dungeon path with a Husk boss would trade out 1-3 Zerkers for condition builds instead; something that is currently completely absent from the dungeon meta. You can still complete the content with anything you like, so nothing is being forced on anyone, but now something is wanted that wasn’t before.

On the NPC escort idea, it depends on implementation. If the NPC does not attack anything and keeps moving regardless, the most frustrating parts of escort missions are solved (NPC backtracking or stopping and bugging out). Importance of different builds varies with enemy types, numbers, special buffs or debuffs, and even terrain. Again, any composition can complete the content, but what is most efficient may be something currently not seen in dungeons.

As for spread out ranged enemies, again, nothing is forced on the player. Perhaps a party decides to spread out and kill everything, or perhaps they run around the circle, killing each individual enemy much faster, but having to deal with the pressure from the rest that they can’t hit simultaneously. This one is nothing special mechanically, but it does require different tactics than “Guardian GS5+Ice Bow.” Different tactics are always good to require as it makes people think.

All three of these ideas favor something other than current dungeon meta. They do not require something other than current dungeon meta.

NoTrigger.8396:

Wetpaw.3487:

and he left to pump out games for a Amazon studio? His Hardcore™ and involvement was hardly impressive if you take away initial hype sales.

how exactly is that relevant?
the point is, so far they didnt nerf anything when people cried. other games however did.

you should have to get good and earn your rewards and not get them for free.

Bad example to use them, Wildstar is projected to make something like $4 Million a year in Revenue, very doubtful NCSoft is going to keep them going with that little of revenue.

spoj.9672:

Its not out of balance. The content is just old and too easy for bad players to do well in glass gear. Gear is not the problem.

Oh c’mon.

Still, I’ll rephrase just for you: ’it’s out of balance for the current content’.

The cause of the imbalance doesn’t negate the imbalance.

It should, and in fact has to, be fixed holistically, and every sign points to that being the way they’re fixing it.

Well thats the thing. Because the gear itself isnt out of balance. So you really shouldnt say it is. We have enough people insisting it is, we dont need more people saying it. Defensive gear is just as op at surviving as offensive gear is op at doing damage.

And yes it seems they are addressing the issue through the content without forcing roles, gear types etc. Which is good. Unfortunately we still get constant threads like this where people keep blaming the problems on a gearset.

spoj.9672:

Well thats the thing. Because the gear itself isnt out of balance. So you really shouldnt say it is. We have enough people insisting it is, we dont need more people saying it. Defensive gear is just as op at surviving as offensive gear is op at doing damage.

And yes it seems they are addressing the issue through the content without forcing roles, gear types etc. Which is good. Unfortunately we still get constant threads like this where people keep blaming the problems on a gearset.

The problem I have with that framing, and the reason I dont’ like it is because it ends up reading really really poorly.

It seems like we’re in agreement that the ‘problem’ (such as it is) needs to be repaired through game rules and encounter design rather than just in numbers, but there’s an issue where people come off as if they’re defending their preferred gearset rather than considering the optimal gameplay fixes, which heavily alienates people.

~~

Maybe I’m just being way too meta though, since we have total agreement (afaik) on what the actual fix entails

Someone made an interesting point about thieves and mesmers. Their builds consist of primarily all-out-power or all-out-condi. If you gut the zerker gear their dps will drop into the abyss and they’ll be relegated to being condi-cancer.

Some of you guys need to stop looking through your little window view of things and step outside to how a change could potentially make these two obsolete.

Max direct damage will likely still be the go to unless Anet radically changes current and future content to punish players who rely on proper positioning, dodging, and active defenses over passive stats and face tanking.

hazenvirus.8154:

Max direct damage will likely still be the go to unless Anet radically changes current and future content to punish players who rely on proper positioning, dodging, and active defenses over passive stats and face tanking.

and why would they do that?
why would they change it from rewarding good players for being good to rewarding bad players for being bad?

that doesnt make any sense and is beyond stupid.