Guild Wars 2

VodCom.6924:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I would disagree with your assessment that encouraging mixed groups to do things optimally is “solving a non-existent problem.” The problem exists, whether you want to believe it or not. That’s why threads like this keep popping up in the first place. What you are saying is “because someone doesn’t like the Zerker playstyle, they can’t feel wanted.” They may actually be a better player than you, but because they don’t conform to your view, they are inferior.

You have yet to show why it is a problem. You just asserted it.

I have pointed out a few resons why one can consider the actual situation disappointing, just browse a few of my posts in this thread.

I said this before and I’ll repeat it again : nerfing berserker is a nonsense. However, buffing condition and deeply reworking how conditions interact in a party is important if one wants to have a variety of optimal or roughly optimal builds/party setup.

3/4 of the stats sets are irrelevant for PvE, some are for good reasons (Nomad is irrelevant in PvE for a good reason : you don’t need to be this tanky) some are for bad reasons (Sinister is irrelevant for a bad reason : your fellow players will overwrite your bleed stacks thus lowering your dps).

If we could have just 1/2 of irrelevant stat sets (i.e the tankier ones) that would be an amazing progress in variety. More variety means it takes a bit longer to get bored of content, players can find a playstyle adapted to them more easily.

The actual situation can be fine for you. However, what if we could keep the builds you love and play relevant while opening new opportunities for optimal play ? WvW and sPvP feature rich and varied meta builds, why can’t PvE have the same variety ?

My statement there was not in response to you.

I have no issues with buffing other builds to be just as good. However to rebalance pve content so that only specific builds(such as condi) are optimal for some content and not others is a bad idea because it requires people to change characters and builds for specific content which is why I responded to the other person.

A OK.8276:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I would disagree with your assessment that encouraging mixed groups to do things optimally is “solving a non-existent problem.” The problem exists, whether you want to believe it or not. That’s why threads like this keep popping up in the first place. What you are saying is “because someone doesn’t like the Zerker playstyle, they can’t feel wanted.” They may actually be a better player than you, but because they don’t conform to your view, they are inferior.

You have yet to show why it is a problem. You just asserted it.

And I’ve never stated “because someone doesn’t like zerker playstyle, they can’t feel wanted”. I don’t even know where you came up with that.

The point is simple. Right now every build is VIABLE in pve, but only specific builds are OPTIMAL.

What you want to do is to make it mandatory to have different OPTIMAL builds for different content.

This results in no change for those players who want to just be viable with their soldiers , condi, or mix-match gear because they will still be going to dungeons and other battles with them regardless.

However this will result in the OPTIMAL players now having to swap characters/gear prior to different encounters, which is a net increase in tedium and frustration with no tangible benefit.

A simple benefit analysis shows your argued changes will lead to a net decrease in fun and no real benefit.

2 Things… firstly, as a disclaimer, I really like playing Zerker. If there were options in pve I’d probably still choose zerker for all my toons. Secondly, if conditions stacking was fixed in pve they could be equally viable in PVE. Although I’m not sure how they work I’d love to see how this simple benefit analysis… sounds like a first year project management chapter.

Not really getting what you are saying here. Nowhere did I say I was against buffing conditions. I was specifically against nerfing some content such that only conditions are optimal to force people to choose different builds for different pve content.

Essential flaw is the old ‘only conditions are optimal’ vs ‘only conditions are possible’.

As long as every build is reasonable some builds being better for some encounters and others being better for others isn’t only acceptable, it’s desirable.

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I would disagree with your assessment that encouraging mixed groups to do things optimally is “solving a non-existent problem.” The problem exists, whether you want to believe it or not. That’s why threads like this keep popping up in the first place. What you are saying is “because someone doesn’t like the Zerker playstyle, they can’t feel wanted.” They may actually be a better player than you, but because they don’t conform to your view, they are inferior.

You have yet to show why it is a problem. You just asserted it.

And I’ve never stated “because someone doesn’t like zerker playstyle, they can’t feel wanted”. I don’t even know where you came up with that.

The point is simple. Right now every build is VIABLE in pve, but only specific builds are OPTIMAL.

What you want to do is to make it mandatory to have different OPTIMAL builds for different content.

This results in no change for those players who want to just be viable with their soldiers , condi, or mix-match gear because they will still be going to dungeons and other battles with them regardless.

However this will result in the OPTIMAL players now having to swap characters/gear prior to different encounters, which is a net increase in tedium and frustration with no tangible benefit.

A simple benefit analysis shows your argued changes will lead to a net decrease in fun and no real benefit.

The fact we are even having this conversation shows that it is a problem. Why is it a problem for different content to have different optimal strategies? One would think that’s what is supposed to be the case.

No, the fact that we are having this conversation shows that we are having a conversation. You still haven’t actually substantiated your argument with any evidence.

All right then, would you like me to go through Google and link every single thread discussing this exact same topic? I think you’d get sick of it at say, the 30th one? I know I can go well beyond that if you insist.

There is indeed a problem with 5-zerk being the meta for everything: a lot of players feel slighted and pressured into something that they don’t actually enjoy in order to do content that they do enjoy. In any other game, you wouldn’t think the same strategy works against everything, would you? Even in sports, this isn’t the case: you don’t take on the New England Patriots and the Detroit Lions in the same manner, for example. In Golf, you don’t tackle every hole the same way. So why is it okay for all dungeons to be handled the same? Because you are lazy and don’t want to buy a second set of gear?

Different content aside from pve already has different optimal strategies. The scope of this discussion is around pve. You are advocating for additional optimal builds for different pve content when it isn’t needed and would just increase frustration and tedium as I’ve explained already.

The “optimal strategy” in all dungeons (the only place where “meta” means anything in PvE) is to stack up and AoE all enemies until they’re dead. This only varies slightly with bosses. This isn’t variety, this is reskins.

And no, one does not necessarily think that is supposed to be the case because that is subjective. You are not the sole arbiter of deciding what is supposed to be or not.

You’re right; I’m not the sole arbiter of what is “supposed” to be or not. That is ANet’s job. Berserker is supposed to be the highest DPS set, and it is! Necromancer is supposed to be an attrition profession that is hard to get away from and…well, it’s not. Moral of the story: ANet isn’t perfect at making things the way they are supposed to be.

However, common sense dictates that different situations require different approaches. I’m advocating that ANet encourage a well-stocked toolbox over three sizes of hammer in dungeons.

You are the one advocating for the change therefore it’s incumbent on you to backup your assertions with evidence rather than just sophistry, which is what you’ve been throwing out so far.

And what sort of evidence would satisfy you? 20 threads saying there is a problem? 50? I can probably pull 70 or so if you like. I can outline situations that encourage different things than 5-zerk (and have already) that even already exist in the game! But they don’t exclude zerk either. It’s just not the most optimal set in those circumstances. Are you saying those situations are tedious and cause undue frustration because you can’t be the best thing evah in those situations?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All right then, would you like me to go through Google and link every single thread discussing this exact same topic? I think you’d get sick of it at say, the 30th one? I know I can go well beyond that if you insist.

People discussing something doesn’t make that something a problem. logic 101.

There is indeed a problem with 5-zerk being the meta for everything: a lot of players feel slighted and pressured into something that they don’t actually enjoy in order to do content that they do enjoy.

Again you are asserting it is a problem without demonstrating why. 5 zerk is nowhere near meta for everything. There are tons of different builds for pvp and wvw for example, which are 2 other giant pieces of GW2. Also there are always a meta for any game content, you nerf it something else will become meta. My main problem is with your so-called solution, which would lead to a lot more problems as I have demonstrated in my other posts.

Also there’s a difference between viable and optimal as many people and myself have pointed out. No one is pressuring anyone to build zerk because all other possible builds are viable for successfully completing content. The problem lies in some people not using the meta being mad that their own build is sub optimal even though it’s still viable.

In any other game, you wouldn’t think the same strategy works against everything, would you? Even in sports, this isn’t the case: you don’t take on the New England Patriots and the Detroit Lions in the same manner, for example. In Golf, you don’t tackle every hole the same way. So why is it okay for all dungeons to be handled the same? Because you are lazy and don’t want to buy a second set of gear?

Wrong again. I’ve already pointed out there are plenty of different builds for wvw and pvp which are giant parts of gw2. Therefore zerk being optimal in pve doesn’t mean it “works against everything”.

You’re right; I’m not the sole arbiter of what is “supposed” to be or not. That is ANet’s job. Berserker is supposed to be the highest DPS set, and it is! Necromancer is supposed to be an attrition profession that is hard to get away from and…well, it’s not. Moral of the story: ANet isn’t perfect at making things the way they are supposed to be.

This is perhaps the most ironic and unself-conscious statement you made so far.

You admit that you are not the sole arbiter of what is “supposed” to be or not and say that is ANET’s job but you conclude with: “ANET isn’t perfect at making things the way they are SUPPOSED to be.” once again claiming you are the sole arbiter of what is supposed to be or not. You get points for contradicting yourself within the same paragraph. Congratulations.

However, common sense dictates that different situations require different approaches. I’m advocating that ANet encourage a well-stocked toolbox over three sizes of hammer in dungeons.

Wrong. In this case you are advocating for artificially creating different situations requiring different approaches where they didn’t exist before. That is the antithesis of common sense.

DeathPanel.8362:

People discussing something doesn’t make that something a problem. logic 101.

Frequent discussion of a topic indicates there is indeed a problem. And this is probably the most discussed topic on these forums.

Right now, you’re sounding like one of those people that denies global warming is a thing. I can point you to as much evidence as you like and you will still say “nope, not true.”

Again you are asserting it is a problem without demonstrating why. 5 zerk is nowhere near meta for everything. There are tons of different builds for pvp and wvw for example, which are 2 other giant pieces of GW2. Also there are always a meta for any game content, you nerf it something else will become meta. My main problem is with your so-called solution, which would lead to a lot more problems as I have demonstrated in my other posts.

Context! Not once have I strayed from discussing the homogenized state of dungeon metas. Ergo, unless I specify otherwise, I am still referring to dungeon metas. There will always be a meta. I have not advocated for nerfing anything here. I only advocate for variation in metas, which is quite possible to do without nerfing a thing.

The only “problems” that you demonstrate are that you personally don’t want to get a second set of gear. That is literally the only problem you bring up: you personally don’t want to put forth the effort to be optimal at different content.

Also there’s a difference between viable and optimal as many people and myself have pointed out. No one is pressuring anyone to build zerk because all other possible builds are viable for successfully completing content. The problem lies in some people not using the meta being mad that their own build is sub optimal even though it’s still viable.

And why should some different builds not be optimal in some paths? You keep failing to answer this one very important question. Why should different dungeon content not have different metas?

Wrong again. I’ve already pointed out there are plenty of different builds for wvw and pvp which are giant parts of gw2. Therefore zerk being optimal in pve doesn’t mean it “works against everything”.

Again context tells you that “everything” means “everything in dungeons”, as that is literally the only place in the game where this is even relevant. Please, stop trying to be superior and learn to understand context and its importance in argument.

This is perhaps the most ironic and unself-conscious statement you made so far.

You admit that you are not the sole arbiter of what is “supposed” to be or not and say that is ANET’s job but you conclude with: “ANET isn’t perfect at making things the way they are SUPPOSED to be.” once again claiming you are the sole arbiter of what is supposed to be or not. You get points for contradicting yourself within the same paragraph. Congratulations.

I don’t see how I’m contradicting myself when the examples I gave are ANet’s own words. That’s right, I didn’t say that Berserker is supposed to be the highest DPS (though I agree it should be), nor did I say Necromancer is an attrition profession. Those are ANet’s words.

Wrong. In this case you are advocating for artificially creating different situations requiring different approaches where they didn’t exist before. That is the antithesis of common sense.

Got news for you: it’s a computer program Every situation is artificially created.

But here’s the thing: different situations are different. This is by definition, so you really can’t argue with that. As circumstances change, how you react to them should as well. It sound to me like you learned a First Order Optimal Strategy (FOOS for short) and are terrified of being in a situation where it doesn’t work. The purpose of FOOS is to give you a good basis from which you can expand your skillset as you face new challenges. It is not for covering everything you encounter.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

ODB.6891:

What it sounds like is you guys are wanting a GW2 uniform.

Should be my new signature.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All right then, would you like me to go through Google and link every single thread discussing this exact same topic? I think you’d get sick of it at say, the 30th one? I know I can go well beyond that if you insist.

Man, some phiws crying over a poor dead horse beaten bloody into a pulp doesn’t make the horse a problem. It just makes it extremely tedious to read the same absurd arguments over and over again. Being vocal and shouting does get attention, but it doesn’t mean you’re right… I sadly happen to have such a person sitting on my nuts almost 24/7, so forgive me if I’m honestly sick of it.
Raise the volume all you want, there will always be an optimal gear and build, and you kitten bet it’ll be enforced. Even if it’s only 5% stronger.
I feel like anet caved in quite enough times to such ramblings.

P.S. Yeah, it means that if you introduced a boss that has unavoidable attacks, is nearly invulnerable to everything, uses heavy conditions with unreflectable projectiles, and the ONLY way to win the fight were to just survive for, say, 10 minutes, then nomad would be the optimal stats for nearly each class. I’d still kick you if you tried to join on carrion, because it’s not good for that fight. And say you make a boss with many different phases, in which you have to switch gear inbetween fights? Same stuff. /kick if you suck. Keep screamin’, maybe they’ll actually develop the boss I told you about and tanks are gonna feel useful, poor little things.
Because this was supposed to be a tank/healer game, but anet doesn’t know.

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

DeathPanel.8362:

People discussing something doesn’t make that something a problem. logic 101.

Frequent discussion of a topic indicates there is indeed a problem. And this is probably the most discussed topic on these forums.

Right now, you’re sounding like one of those people that denies global warming is a thing. I can point you to as much evidence as you like and you will still say “nope, not true.”

Wrong. In fact ironically you are the one that sounds like those people that denies global warming. Because under your logic just because something is discussed a lot automatically means it is a problem and global warming deniers do talk about the “global warming hoax” a lot. So far I’m the only one that is calling for empiricism and logic.

Context! Not once have I strayed from discussing the homogenized state of dungeon metas. Ergo, unless I specify otherwise, I am still referring to dungeon metas. There will always be a meta. I have not advocated for nerfing anything here. I only advocate for variation in metas, which is quite possible to do without nerfing a thing.

The only “problems” that you demonstrate are that you personally don’t want to get a second set of gear. That is literally the only problem you bring up: you personally don’t want to put forth the effort to be optimal at different content.

Wrong. You have called for making content changes such that some fights are better optimally done with other build types and that means that the old build optimal build is no longer as effective, which is by definition a nerf.

The only “problem” with your arguments is that they are short sighted and without any real evidence to show that they would result in a better state of things than before and based solely on your own opinions which a lot of people here don’t share as the posts indicate.

And why should some different builds not be optimal in some paths? You keep failing to answer this one very important question. Why should different dungeon content not have different metas?

Because doing so would mean a net increase in frustration and decrease in fun for those using single dedicated dungeon runners with a single build because they’d have to change characters or gear. I’ve already stated this no less than 3 times yet you chose to ignore it. You are artificially introducing unneeded complexity into a system with no tangible benefit.

This is perhaps the most ironic and unself-conscious statement you made so far.

You admit that you are not the sole arbiter of what is “supposed” to be or not and say that is ANET’s job but you conclude with: “ANET isn’t perfect at making things the way they are SUPPOSED to be.” once again claiming you are the sole arbiter of what is supposed to be or not. You get points for contradicting yourself within the same paragraph. Congratulations.

I don’t see how I’m contradicting myself when the examples I gave are ANet’s own words. That’s right, I didn’t say that Berserker is supposed to be the highest DPS (though I agree it should be), nor did I say Necromancer is an attrition profession. Those are ANet’s words.

Lol are you serious? In the beginning of the paragraph you say you are not the sole arbiter of what things are supposed to be, yet by the end of the paragraph you say ANET isn’t perfect at making things the way they are Supposed to be. That by definition is a self contradiction because by stating that you implicitly mean that you know how things are supposed to be. Those are YOUR words.

Wrong. In this case you are advocating for artificially creating different situations requiring different approaches where they didn’t exist before. That is the antithesis of common sense.

Got news for you: it’s a computer program Every situation is artificially created.

Got news for you: Adding unnecessary new code to a computer program is bad coding. Your statement is also a strawman argument since I never said computer programs were not artificially created. So in fact you basically dishonestly strawmanned me while failing to answer my response to your so-called “common sense” statement.

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

DeathPanel.8362:

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

Please, speak for yourself. I still enjoy doing them.

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. In fact ironically you are the one that sounds like those people that denies global warming. Because under your logic just because something is discussed a lot automatically means it is a problem and global warming deniers do talk about the “global warming hoax” a lot. So far I’m the only one that is calling for empiricism and logic.

All right then, what sort of evidence would convince you? Anything on this topic is going to be subject to opinion of players, so numerical data is exceedingly difficult to come by. Here is what is true: variety is good for a game, and we currently don’t have variety in dungeons.

Wrong. You have called for making content changes such that some fights are better optimally done with other build types and that means that the old build optimal build is no longer as effective, which is by definition a nerf.

Sooo, because gear X is optimal in content A, if content B comes out later, gear X needs to be the optimal choice there as well, as anything else would be a “nerf?” Do you even know what it means to nerf something? Taking it from being the best choice in 95% of total content to being the best choice in 80% of total content by adding new content does not make it a nerf: it is still just as effective as it was before in all the same places as before. It’s just not the best choice in the new stuff.

The only “problem” with your arguments is that they are short sighted and without any real evidence to show that they would result in a better state of things than before and based solely on your own opinions which a lot of people here don’t share as the posts indicate.

Actually, I see three people including yourself (I think it’s 3, one poster is difficult to read due to lack of punctuation and spelling) who don’t share my opinion and quite a few more that do.

Because doing so would mean a net increase in frustration and decrease in fun for those using single dedicated dungeon runners with a single build because they’d have to change characters or gear. I’ve already stated this no less than 3 times yet you chose to ignore it. You are artificially introducing unneeded complexity into a system with no tangible benefit.

So in other words, because you personally don’t want to get a second set of gear. Thanks for confirming you don’t have any other reason.

There are tangible benefits to introducing complexity: improved skill of players as they have to deal with multiple situations, improved variety of content, improved build diversity, a renewal of interest in dungeons (both from players and devs). Those are all things that can easily come from introducing new paths or changing old ones to have different optimal strategies.

Lol are you serious? In the beginning of the paragraph you say you are not the sole arbiter of what things are supposed to be, yet by the end of the paragraph you say ANET isn’t perfect at making things the way they are Supposed to be. That by definition is a self contradiction because by stating that you implicitly mean that you know how things are supposed to be. Those are YOUR words.

Are you being intentionally dense here? I’m thinking so, because the examples I gave were paraphrases of quotes from ANet. ArenaNet has stated that Beserker’s gear is supposed to be the highest DPS. They also stated that Necromancers are an attrition profession that is difficult to escape from (check the profession design philosophy, I’ll wait). I did not, in any way, shape, or form, claim to be the sole person who knows how things are supposed to be. So, by ANet’s own statements of how things in their game are supposed to be, we can check against reality. Is Zerker the highest DPS set? Usually, yes (niche cases like Husks aside). Are necromancers an attrition profession that’s hard to get away from? No, sadly.

Got news for you: Adding unnecessary new code to a computer program is bad coding. Your statement is also a strawman argument since I never said computer programs were not artificially created. So in fact you basically dishonestly strawmanned me while failing to answer my response to your so-called “common sense” statement.

Unnecessary code is bad coding, yes. New content, though, requires new code, so it would not be “unnecessary.” Artificially creating situations would be things along the lines of “this random enemy negates crit damage,” or “you can’t heal in this fight.” Things that arbitrarily negate core aspects or are immune to strengths of builds. Not “this enemy takes reduced damage due to high armor” or “this encounter isn’t focused around DPS.”

Common sense comes in that variety in content is good for a game, so if there is an area without variety, that area should be changed up when possible in order to improve the game.

Lol I imagine myself trying to blinds gigantic bosses like teq or the 3giant worms… Fyi worms have to eyes. Maybe frozen maw but what about karka? XD

As long as there is a healthbar on the enemy then DPS will always be king.

And I’m with Deathpanel on this one. I’ve done somewhere well north of 500 fractals and surely 1000+ dungeons by now… I don’t watch cut scenes anymore and very rarely is it fun because of bads. I’m there for the gold/loots.

thefantasticg.3984:

As long as there is a healthbar on the enemy then DPS will always be king.

And I’m with Deathpanel on this one. I’ve done somewhere well north of 500 fractals and surely 1000+ dungeons by now… I don’t watch cut scenes anymore and very rarely is it fun because of bads. I’m there for the gold/loots.

If you’re not playing for fun, then why play?

survivable dps is king. back when we didn’t know better there was actually a time when people hated pure DPS setup players in their groups because they spent all their time lounging about on the ground. In that time (years ago now), in many groups, pure DPS wasn’t well appreciated or desirable.

As survivability tactics became more commonly known that changed, and as it became so exceptionally easy to stay alive as pure DPS in a proper team, the meta shifted.

If pure DPS survivability becomes much more difficult (lots of ideas floating around), the meta will shift and pure DPS will become less popular again.

Windsagio.1340:

If pure DPS survivability becomes much more difficult (lots of ideas floating around), the meta will shift and pure DPS will become less popular again.

Don’t think so. 2 years ago, ppl wanted defensive gear so party member don’t die like flies. Now, we know that there is way better tools than defensive gear to keep you alive in hard content.

Protection, Reflect, Blind, Aegis, Vigor, trait, weakness, etc. We will use more of that to tackle harder content, we won’t gonna go back to defensive gear like we used to when we didn’t really understood the game. A lot of ways to improve our survivability in this game and defensive gear/healing are the less efficient and the less fun (active defense is way more entertaining than passive defense).

Windsagio.1340:

If you’re not playing for fun, then why play?

Oh please don’t tell people how to play….

Windsagio.1340:

thefantasticg.3984:

As long as there is a healthbar on the enemy then DPS will always be king.

And I’m with Deathpanel on this one. I’ve done somewhere well north of 500 fractals and surely 1000+ dungeons by now… I don’t watch cut scenes anymore and very rarely is it fun because of bads. I’m there for the gold/loots.

If you’re not playing for fun, then why play?

survivable dps is king. back when we didn’t know better there was actually a time when people hated pure DPS setup players in their groups because they spent all their time lounging about on the ground. In that time (years ago now), in many groups, pure DPS wasn’t well appreciated or desirable.

As survivability tactics became more commonly known that changed, and as it became so exceptionally easy to stay alive as pure DPS in a proper team, the meta shifted.

If pure DPS survivability becomes much more difficult (lots of ideas floating around), the meta will shift and pure DPS will become less popular again.

Uh, last line says why I play. I like getting loot/gold. Not to mention my wife plays.. and drunken guild nights are quite fun… but as far as dungeons/fractals are concerned I run those for the loots. Sure, they were just “fun” for the first dozen or so times… but then I learned the content and had seen it all already. Was nothing new and they aren’t getting revamped, so, yeah, I run dungeons/fractals just for gold/loots.

And as far as that whole survivable DPS thing you mention, see Thaddeus’s comment above.

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

Please, speak for yourself. I still enjoy doing them.

Hence my hedge of 5 people… you are obviously one of them.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All right then, what sort of evidence would convince you? Anything on this topic is going to be subject to opinion of players, so numerical data is exceedingly difficult to come by. Here is what is true: variety is good for a game, and we currently don’t have variety in dungeons.

There are different levels of evidence required for different kind of proofs. However in this case you’ve failed to even demonstrate a good argument much less any data so…

Wrong. You have called for making content changes such that some fights are better optimally done with other build types and that means that the old build optimal build is no longer as effective, which is by definition a nerf.

Sooo, because gear X is optimal in content A, if content B comes out later, gear X needs to be the optimal choice there as well, as anything else would be a “nerf?”

Wrong again. You’re arguing for changing existing content based on existing gear so your new content argument is invalid.

Actually, I see three people including yourself (I think it’s 3, one poster is difficult to read due to lack of punctuation and spelling) who don’t share my opinion and quite a few more that do.

Actually I see you are the only one that espouses this line of reasoning. All the others argue for buffing other builds to be equally optimal which I actually support.

Because doing so would mean a net increase in frustration and decrease in fun for those using single dedicated dungeon runners with a single build because they’d have to change characters or gear. I’ve already stated this no less than 3 times yet you chose to ignore it. You are artificially introducing unneeded complexity into a system with no tangible benefit.

So in other words, because you personally don’t want to get a second set of gear. Thanks for confirming you don’t have any other reason.

You just recycled your old debunked drivel again here without addressing my argument yet ironically at the same time you just admitted you’re wrong with your own words.

Making someone get a second set of gear to experience the same old content they used to do is inflicting unnecessary tedium upon them without any benefit. Thanks for admitting I’m right.

Lol are you serious? In the beginning of the paragraph you say you are not the sole arbiter of what things are supposed to be, yet by the end of the paragraph you say ANET isn’t perfect at making things the way they are Supposed to be. That by definition is a self contradiction because by stating that you implicitly mean that you know how things are supposed to be. Those are YOUR words.

Are you being intentionally dense here? I’m thinking so, because the examples I gave were paraphrases of quotes from ANet.

Apparently you don’t know what irony is. The quotes I took were specifically your own words. I never quoted anything you cited from ANET. You are the one ironically intentionally being dense to avoid taking responsibility for your self contradiction. Anyone can look at your post and see that. You show dishonesty once again.

Unnecessary code is bad coding, yes. New content, though, requires new code, so it would not be “unnecessary.” Artificially creating situations would be things along the lines of “this random enemy negates crit damage,” or “you can’t heal in this fight.” Things that arbitrarily negate core aspects or are immune to strengths of builds. Not “this enemy takes reduced damage due to high armor” or “this encounter isn’t focused around DPS.”

Common sense comes in that variety in content is good for a game, so if there is an area without variety, that area should be changed up when possible in order to improve the game.

Existing dungeons are not new content. That was part of the scope of your discussion. Therefore changing the existing dungeons according to your ideas would result in artificially creating situations to require builds that didn’t exist before.

Also I need to mention, the idea of “common sense” is frankly non-sense, pun intended. If you knew anything about logic you’d know that “common sense” is terrible for reaching a logical conclusion. Yet you throw this term out as if it’s a good way to reach a conclusion. Hint, it’s not.

“Common sense is nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down by the mind before you reach eighteen.” -Albert Einstein

We are not trying to make other stats king, only damage kills everyone knows that,in GW2 we have 2(MAIN) damage types power and conditions, one of them finished the race early while the other one was disqualified for not meeting requirements. Look at pvp…are other stats THAT subpar?are zerkers forbidden?are other stats king? Easy pve is waste here there is no open pvp in pve nor grinding to get pvp gear…so what’s the point of not making it challenging enough to resemble pvp?

Stop with the “They are trying to nerf zerker,they want nomad to kill as fast as zerker..”, just stop going off topic.

Thaddeus.4891:

Windsagio.1340:

If pure DPS survivability becomes much more difficult (lots of ideas floating around), the meta will shift and pure DPS will become less popular again.

Don’t think so. 2 years ago, ppl wanted defensive gear so party member don’t die like flies. Now, we know that there is way better tools than defensive gear to keep you alive in hard content.

Protection, Reflect, Blind, Aegis, Vigor, trait, weakness, etc. We will use more of that to tackle harder content, we won’t gonna go back to defensive gear like we used to when we didn’t really understood the game. A lot of ways to improve our survivability in this game and defensive gear/healing are the less efficient and the less fun (active defense is way more entertaining than passive defense).

Don’t forget the walls! those walls man.

such wall WoW many walls.

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

Please, speak for yourself. I still enjoy doing them.

Hence my hedge of 5 people… you are obviously one of them.

My guild is full of such people, and all of them play for longer than 2 weeks. In most cases way longer. Do not think that every player in this game is the same as you (or even that most are).

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

Please, speak for yourself. I still enjoy doing them.

Hence my hedge of 5 people… you are obviously one of them.

My guild is full of such people, and all of them play for longer than 2 weeks. In most cases way longer. Do not think that every player in this game is the same as you (or even that most are).

In my guild is the opposite. Most play dungeons just because of the gold that is so easy compared with pvp and wvw. Even living story maps are more fun because they are not so old and require some coordination at least.

Living story maps require coordination?.. not sure if srs…

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

Please, speak for yourself. I still enjoy doing them.

Hence my hedge of 5 people… you are obviously one of them.

My guild is full of such people, and all of them play for longer than 2 weeks. In most cases way longer. Do not think that every player in this game is the same as you (or even that most are).

Sure that’s what you claim now when you are new or relatively new. But get anyone to repeat the same pve content 1000+ times and see what happens. I got 24 characters all of which I’ve run through the pve dungeons and fractals at around 3000 hours for my account. You play the same pve content long enough you want it to end as soon as possible because it’s the same exact encounters each and every time against poor AI controlled mobs. The bottom line is pve is simply not that replayable no matter how you try to tweak it in this game unless you come out with randomly generated dungeon maps which given this engine is near impossible. And what that other guy suggests to force different team setups would just make things even slower and more annoying.

The only replayability in this game is in the pvp and wvw modes because fighting against single or teams of players are unique and different almost every time. The problem is the best way to gear up to optimal builds in wvw you must farm monotonous pve content.

I still hold that the best way to fix any and all metas is to move away from stats entirely. Have your gear influence certain builds instead of stats directly.

Obviously adjust the amount of damage that the monsters/players do directly or adjust the amount of damage you can absorb or hps you have to compensate for less stats.

After that your gear will influence certain abilities instead of stats.

Say you want to be a tanky warrior for whatever reason. Then your leg armor will give you the added benefit of your shield block skill to allow you to absorb attacks that anyone else in the party would take instead at a reduced damage to yourself.

Then have the leg armor allow you to reflect the other part of the damage back on the attacker.

That way your gear influences how you want to play your character instead of you having to build your character based on the gear others “require” you to use.

It would open up a whole world of possibility and weapon sets that would drastically alter the way you play them. One person might be using my example above and another might instead use a piece of armor that allows their shield bash skill to do massive damage to a bleeding foe instead of a charging stun.

The possible combinations would be endless especially with weapon sets. I think this would add so much build diversity.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Windsagio.1340:

If you’re not playing for fun, then why play?

Oh please don’t tell people how to play….

OK lets get serious here. They can do whatever they want. If they’re playing and they’re not enjoying it (having fun) there’s something broken somewhere. People do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons, but if they dont’ enjoy it and only want the rewards that’s pretty massively dysfunctional.

As a designer, It’d be disheartening to see players saying that, even knowing that that’s a known factor in some MMO players.

If you’re playing from loot obsession, how you play doesn’t matter, and the designers shouldn’t really try to please you.

Of course I don’t believe what he says is really right, I was at a talk at GDC today (on buying games you’re not gonna play) and the very first thing the presenter said was that there’s a huge gap between how players describe their behavior and interests and what those behaviors/interests actually are.

Edit: This is important too, toxicity gets thrown around a lot in these discussions, but the ‘not playing to enjoy myself’ attitude is a truly poisonous. That thought process is inherently incompatable with good discussion, except in the base level ‘how do we exploit this weird obsession for profit?’ kind of way… And I hope Anet uses that kind of thought process as little as possible in their design.

Windsagio.1340:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Windsagio.1340:

If you’re not playing for fun, then why play?

Oh please don’t tell people how to play….

OK lets get serious here. They can do whatever they want. If they’re playing and they’re not enjoying it (having fun) there’s something broken somewhere. People do all kinds of things for all kinds of reasons, but if they dont’ enjoy it and only want the rewards that’s pretty massively dysfunctional.

As a designer, It’d be disheartening to see players saying that, even knowing that that’s a known factor in some MMO players.

If you’re playing from loot obsession, how you play doesn’t matter, and the designers shouldn’t really try to please you.

Of course I don’t believe what he says is really right, I was at a talk at GDC today (on buying games you’re not gonna play) and the very first thing the presenter said was that there’s a huge gap between how players describe their behavior and interests and what those behaviors/interests actually are.

Edit: This is important too, toxicity gets thrown around a lot in these discussions, but the ‘not playing to enjoy myself’ attitude is a truly poisonous. That thought process is inherently incompatable with good discussion, except in the base level ‘how do we exploit this weird obsession for profit?’ kind of way… And I hope Anet uses that kind of thought process as little as possible in their design.

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end. The MMO genre were birthed from the ARPG genre which is all about the end reward. Gw2 tries to be different by saying that we should enjoy the content for what they are. Problem is the games content is not that enjoyable or immersive just like 99% of MMO on the market. Most involve doing mundane tasks over and over. The only way someone is going to enjoy doing that is to get that carrot at the end. After all, loot obssession can be another sort of fun, otherwise games like diablo 3 wouldn’t be so popular.

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end.

I am so happy to hear I can’t be lumped in with “people”.

If you don’t enjoy the gameplay, you shouldn’t be playing.

Nike.2631:

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end.

I am so happy to hear I can’t be lumped in with “people”.

If you don’t enjoy the gameplay, you shouldn’t be playing.

You don’t get to tell me what to do, just because you do not understand what others find fun. Also I didnt use “fun” literally, if you had read the post instead of nitpicking maybe you would know what I mean.

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end. After all the MMO games did come from ARPG genre which is all about the end reward. Gw2 tries to be different by saying that we should enjoy the content for what they are. Problem is the games content is not that enjoyable or immersive just like 99% of MMO on the market. Most involve doing mundane tasks over and over. The only way someone is going to enjoy doing that is to get that carrot at the end. After all, loot obssession can be another sort of fun, otherwise games like diablo 3 wouldn’t be so popular.

Not too well worded I think, but yeah, you are right.

It seems some people are mixing “the path” with “the goal”. The “fun” I get from GW2 is earning the reward, putting on my shiny new backpiece, or just seeing that another collection achievment (or any other) is done. And that makes me feel happy and satisfied.

Doing a dungeon 145 times for that (not a made up number, that’s actually how many times you have to do a dungeon for a full collcetion) is not fun. It’s the way towards fun, but the process itself is boring and mundane.

For me fun and dungeons are polar opposites, yet I do them occasianally (2-3x times a week).

It’s hard for me to believe that someone running the same path for the 35th time still finds it enjoyable.

Bubi.7942:

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end. After all the MMO games did come from ARPG genre which is all about the end reward. Gw2 tries to be different by saying that we should enjoy the content for what they are. Problem is the games content is not that enjoyable or immersive just like 99% of MMO on the market. Most involve doing mundane tasks over and over. The only way someone is going to enjoy doing that is to get that carrot at the end. After all, loot obssession can be another sort of fun, otherwise games like diablo 3 wouldn’t be so popular.

Not too well worded I think, but yeah, you are right.

It seems some people are mixing “the path” with “the goal”. The “fun” I get from GW2 is earning the reward, putting on my shiny new backpiece, or just seeing that another collection achievment (or any other) is done. And that makes me feel happy and satisfied.

Doing a dungeon 145 times for that (not a made up number, that’s actually how many times you have to do a dungeon for a full collcetion) is not fun. It’s the way towards fun, but the process itself is boring and mundane.

For me fun and dungeons are polar opposites, yet I do them occasianally (2-3x times a week).

It’s hard for me to believe that someone running the same path for the 35th time still finds it enjoyable.

Exactly. This is what I’ve been trying to make some people here understand. Doing the same pve content 1000+ times over is not fun. Completing your build and getting the gear you want, then taking it to wvw to fight real players is what’s fun for me.

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end.

Oh no, why didn’t you tell me this before? I’ve been playing this game for all the wrong reasons for 2.5 years and didn’t notice it .

Bubi.7942:

It’s hard for me to believe that someone running the same path for the 35th time still finds it enjoyable.

It depends on why you play the game, and more specific the dungeon. Personally, the big draw dungeons have for me is playing with people who’s company I enjoy. The most memorable dungeon runs I’ve had (and I have been running plenty of dungeons) are mostly not the ones that just breezed through flawlessly. They’re the ones where the team faced unexpected challenges and recovered from unpredicted mess-ups. I don’t care about what dungeon I run as much as the people I run it with, and they never get “old” .

Argon.1563:

For a long time, Berserker has been looking shady for open world content. It started getting sketchy to run it around the time of the Tequatl Rising update, and from then on, more content has been released that has made it less viable. Now we’ve seen the stuff in HoT, if I see anybody in my open world parties to do world bosses/events running Berserker, in HoT, they’re getting kicked. Im not picking up corpses off the floor for half of HoT.

I think Berserker will still be good in dungeons, but for open world content: Not appropriate, not viable, buy a real armour set.

Or you can just learn to dodge

To put it in perspective. Ive been playing since beta. For about a year and a half ive been able to fully enjoy dungeons due to leveling new classes and trying them out in each dungeon. It gives some freshness to the experience. But after a while they do become boring. The reason i still do dungeons is not because i find them fun. Its because i find them rewarding and less irritating than open world. This is the key point. I absolutely hate zerging content and so i am stuck recycling old instanced content. Even if i enjoy the mechanics and mobs in silverwastes. I avoid it because the open world experience completely kills it for me.

My favourate part of PvE is fractals. And at this point i have started to feel a little boredom with some fractals. The rewards for fractals are so bad that i feel forced to suffer through dungeons to get my gold. This is one of the reasons i dont log on as much. I want to play. I want to work towards new skins and i want to enjoy small group content with my friends. But the best of it is highly unrewarding and the rest is really old and stale. Bare in mind there are still some old dungeons and parts of dungeons that i do still enjoy very much. But i tend to enjoy them in solos, duos or trios where i can appreciate the encounter more.

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Astralporing.1957:

DeathPanel.8362:

Zoltreez.6435:

rotten.9753:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

-snip-

Mate, pve meta in this game applies only to dungeons/fractals. Since this is the old content and everyone and their mothers will play HoT where there will be mostly (or only) an open world content, it doesn’t matter what the meta is/will be. People run dungeons not for fun but for gold. It doesn’t matter how you farm gold because it’s mundane. All you want is gold.

WoW i didn’t know im the only person in this game that does the dungeons for fun……

You and maybe 5 other people who started playing gw2 2 weeks ago.

Those of us that have run dungeons 1000+ times already just want to get it over with asap.

Please, speak for yourself. I still enjoy doing them.

Hence my hedge of 5 people… you are obviously one of them.

My guild is full of such people, and all of them play for longer than 2 weeks. In most cases way longer. Do not think that every player in this game is the same as you (or even that most are).

Sure that’s what you claim now when you are new or relatively new. But get anyone to repeat the same pve content 1000+ times and see what happens.

…do you have a reading comprehension problem? I just stated, that most players in my guild are neither new nor “relatively” new. How did you get out of this something exactly opposite?

I get it that people like us do not fit into your worldview, but this doesn’t mean we don’t exist.

DeathPanel.8362:

Exactly. This is what I’ve been trying to make some people here understand. Doing the same pve content 1000+ times over is not fun. Completing your build and getting the gear you want, then taking it to wvw to fight real players is what’s fun for me.

Yes. Exactly. For you. But other people are not you, and thus can derive fun from other things. And, in fact, may dislike things that you find entertaining and like things you find boring.

imo they started to make other stat combinations more desirable with Season 2 Living story content. All through my personal story I was zerker, never had any problems being a zerker, then I started season 2 and was getting my bum handed to me. I changed to knights gear for more survivability, and even soldiers gear for even the tougher times, and still change into zerker gear when the situation looks like I can run with that with little problems.

Nike.2631:

Namely, Blind is now effectively GONE from dungeon running with the new break bar drinking it down as just another CC effect that does nothing to bosses.

Do you even know how the current defiance works? Unshakable makes Blind 10% as effective. It wasn’t used on bosses before, it won’t be used on bosses now. No leg has been kicked out from under the “Zerker Meta”.

Astralporing.1957:

do you have a reading comprehension problem? I just stated, that most players in my guild are neither new nor “relatively” new. How did you get out of this something exactly opposite?

I get it that people like us do not fit into your worldview, but this doesn’t mean we don’t exist.

Never said fringe cases don’t exist. The point is changes shouldn’t be done to the system to cater to the fringe cases but rather to the majority of the player base.

Also you don’t get to speak for other people because there’s no evidence they actually think that way and there’s no way to confirm your claim.

DeathPanel.8362:

Bubi.7942:

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end. After all the MMO games did come from ARPG genre which is all about the end reward. Gw2 tries to be different by saying that we should enjoy the content for what they are. Problem is the games content is not that enjoyable or immersive just like 99% of MMO on the market. Most involve doing mundane tasks over and over. The only way someone is going to enjoy doing that is to get that carrot at the end. After all, loot obssession can be another sort of fun, otherwise games like diablo 3 wouldn’t be so popular.

Not too well worded I think, but yeah, you are right.

It seems some people are mixing “the path” with “the goal”. The “fun” I get from GW2 is earning the reward, putting on my shiny new backpiece, or just seeing that another collection achievment (or any other) is done. And that makes me feel happy and satisfied.

Doing a dungeon 145 times for that (not a made up number, that’s actually how many times you have to do a dungeon for a full collcetion) is not fun. It’s the way towards fun, but the process itself is boring and mundane.

For me fun and dungeons are polar opposites, yet I do them occasianally (2-3x times a week).

It’s hard for me to believe that someone running the same path for the 35th time still finds it enjoyable.

Exactly. This is what I’ve been trying to make some people here understand. Doing the same pve content 1000+ times over is not fun. Completing your build and getting the gear you want, then taking it to wvw to fight real players is what’s fun for me.

There’s a obsessive/compulsive element in what you’re saying that is valuable for designers to consider, but it’s not even remotely an universal attitude (and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence that people fled other MMOs to GW2 in order to escape that feeling), and it’s an extremely destructive way to design a game, to feed that attitude.

Windsagio.1340:

DeathPanel.8362:

Bubi.7942:

Lifestealer.4910:

People don’t play MMOs for “fun”, its all about the carrot at the end. After all the MMO games did come from ARPG genre which is all about the end reward. Gw2 tries to be different by saying that we should enjoy the content for what they are. Problem is the games content is not that enjoyable or immersive just like 99% of MMO on the market. Most involve doing mundane tasks over and over. The only way someone is going to enjoy doing that is to get that carrot at the end. After all, loot obssession can be another sort of fun, otherwise games like diablo 3 wouldn’t be so popular.

Not too well worded I think, but yeah, you are right.

It seems some people are mixing “the path” with “the goal”. The “fun” I get from GW2 is earning the reward, putting on my shiny new backpiece, or just seeing that another collection achievment (or any other) is done. And that makes me feel happy and satisfied.

Doing a dungeon 145 times for that (not a made up number, that’s actually how many times you have to do a dungeon for a full collcetion) is not fun. It’s the way towards fun, but the process itself is boring and mundane.

For me fun and dungeons are polar opposites, yet I do them occasianally (2-3x times a week).

It’s hard for me to believe that someone running the same path for the 35th time still finds it enjoyable.

Exactly. This is what I’ve been trying to make some people here understand. Doing the same pve content 1000+ times over is not fun. Completing your build and getting the gear you want, then taking it to wvw to fight real players is what’s fun for me.

There’s a obsessive/compulsive element in what you’re saying that is valuable for designers to consider, but it’s not even remotely an universal attitude (and there’s plenty of anecdotal evidence that people fled other MMOs to GW2 in order to escape that feeling), and it’s an extremely destructive way to design a game, to feed that attitude.

That incentive structure is simply how MMOs work and GW2 is no different. MMOs are all based on rewards and loots and not on the PVE gameplay. PVE gameplay is basically a time sink to make people waste time in order to achieve the loots and rewards.

Replayability is strongest in pvp/wvw because it’s always unique against other humans rather than a predicable AI and the same exact encounters 1000x times over. The replayability of pvp is why games like LoL, DOTA2, Smite, and COD/BF4/CSGO are so popular and played so much.

This is my favorite thread to read.

VodCom.6924:

So there’s not a lot of variety in PvE leading to boredom and a bit of frustration. Having condition glass canon builds viable could be nice. Just look at the “dungeon builds” section of metabattle.com . Compare it with roaming or ranked arena builds sections. It’s a bit empty isn’kitten That’s a problem

So here is the issue with that. There are two ways that a system with a lot of near-optimal variety can exist. The first is extremely good balance and design. when a competitive game with a lot of variables is in balance, there is often a system arising where no one build or deck or character (depending on the game) can rise up and dominate the other and the rest exist in some sort of flawed parity. Flawed in the sense that there is no peak optimal, and the system isn’t solvable.

The other way a lot of variety can occur is when the game or system itself isn’t competitive enough, or cut-throat enough, for the optimal to be discovered. It could very well be that there are clear, distinct optimal WvW roaming builds. But even if there were, if a large enough % of the WvW roaming community rejects them and plays their own special snowflake builds the OP builds won’t rise to the top. I strongly suspect this is the case. There is no competitive WvW roaming scene. No tournaments, no leaderboard etc. It’s completely reasonable to argue that it’s a non-competitive scene and with no Darwinian pressure to compete, the best builds don’t destroy the suboptimal. Variety achieved through easy living.

A second point I’d like to make on variety.

You are looking for variety in gear. Why not look for variety in traits? Or weaponsets? that all exists. There are plenty of PvE viable builds using weapons that aren’t strictly meta. Or trait set ups that are completely viable and outside the meta builds. Why is gear variety the goal you wish for? Ask yourself this: would the game be better if more gear types were near-optimal, or if more trait choices were near-optimal? which answer would result in greater playstyle and gameplayer variety: more gear prefixes, or more viable weapon/trait choices?

Think carefully before you answer that.

hybrid.5027:

You are looking for variety in gear. Why not look for variety in traits? Or weaponsets? that all exists. There are plenty of PvE viable builds using weapons that aren’t strictly meta. Or trait set ups that are completely viable and outside the meta builds. Why is gear variety the goal you wish for? Ask yourself this: would the game be better if more gear types were near-optimal, or if more trait choices were near-optimal? which answer would result in greater playstyle and gameplayer variety: more gear prefixes, or more viable weapon/trait choices?

Think carefully before you answer that.

That is a particularly difficult question to answer because they are intertwined. For example, the trait Master of Misdirection will not ever be optimal unless Condition Damage is optimal. There is simply no possible way around that.

Saying “it’s just gear, not a build” is a fallacy as gear is an integral part to a build. You don’t run on-crit traits and sigils with Soldier’s gear, and you don’t use condition damage setups in Zerker gear. Those are examples of the gear fighting the rest of the build.

Increasing the number of optimal builds necessitates increasing the number of optimal stat combinations.

DeathPanel.8362:

That incentive structure is simply how MMOs work and GW2 is no different. MMOs are all based on rewards and loots and not on the PVE gameplay. PVE gameplay is basically a time sink to make people waste time in order to achieve the loots and rewards.

Replayability is strongest in pvp/wvw because it’s always unique against other humans rather than a predicable AI and the same exact encounters 1000x times over. The replayability of pvp is why games like LoL, DOTA2, Smite, and COD/BF4/CSGO are so popular and played so much.

Absolutely true. However, it’s much different depending on whether it’s monthly or not. Monthly subscription MMOs are pretty much required to prolong all content and make rewards the absolute time sink, with enjoyment taking a backseat to obsessive/addictive play. Half of what keeps people playing is that they feel like quitting mid way through a subscription would waste it or quitting would completely wipe out all their investment if they miss something.

A game like GW2 with no subscription can settle with keeping players interested in the actual game itself enough to buy extra content from ingame stores. Even if they just log on 20minutes to an hour a day. As long as they see “ooh shiny!” in the gemstore and buy it for 5-10$ very couple of days/weeks.

So it’s in Anet’s interest to make PvE content more engaging and accessible like WvW/PvP, by simply making PvE more varied with enemies and encounters that use more interesting mechanics, rather than artificially high health pools and super stomps promoting highest DPS only.

hybrid.5027:

/snip

A second point I’d like to make on variety.

You are looking for variety in gear. Why not look for variety in traits? Or weaponsets? that all exists. There are plenty of PvE viable builds using weapons that aren’t strictly meta. Or trait set ups that are completely viable and outside the meta builds. Why is gear variety the goal you wish for? Ask yourself this: would the game be better if more gear types were near-optimal, or if more trait choices were near-optimal? which answer would result in greater playstyle and gameplayer variety: more gear prefixes, or more viable weapon/trait choices?

Think carefully before you answer that.

Yes to allowing more variation in gear use being better for the game. More gear prefixes to a point. However, it’s a false choice to begin with as gear, trait and weapon choices aren’t mutually exclusive. The majority of build power and diversity comes from gear stats in GW2. There are many traits and skills that are useless unless you gear for them correctly. It’s just the way the core game mechanics are designed. Compared to lets say Diablo 3, where optimal base stats are acquired by making each piece of your desired items an OP version of GW2’s celestial gear to the best of your ability/luck.

There’s multiple builds that many people play and really enjoy playing in PvP/WvW based off those different gear stats. Many of these people also play PvE or want to play it, but find it hard to access and boring because it’s one dimensional compared to the combat mechanics used in the other modes. There is a major time and effort gap between optimal and viable that is too wide on top of that. The main reason (I think) is artificially high healthbars on bosses in absence of concrete and engaging combat mechanics, allowing high DPS teams to significantly finish content faster with little or even less effort than alternative, lower DPS teams. This makes variety a hindrance as every boss is a simple nail that is best nailed with Nailgun (zerker meta) before you go into needless extra phases etc.

There’s obviously room for improvement in PvE and with some common sense changes, would allow these people to play more the way they desire as GW2 was initially advertised to accomplish. Meaning more variety, less need to be “optimal,” while still getting a challenge through use of varying game mechanics in PvE.

WvW really falls into your first theory due to so many variables. GWEN, the roles within it and tactics/strategy are going to have more of a say in success than a snowflake build here or there. Servers can try and do find the optimal gear/builds, only for the meta to change in their respective competitive tier due to other servers countering their meta. Same for PvP.

PvE will never have that evolving variation, but that doesn’t mean you have to design encounters in such a way that the answer is always find out what to dodge two times and DPS down the huge healthbar during damage phase. A lot more can be done in between those two things, allowing Anet to forego the huge healthbar period and even up the time/effort gaps between zerker and non-zerker meta.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Saying “it’s just gear, not a build” is a fallacy as gear is an integral part to a build. You don’t run on-crit traits and sigils with Soldier’s gear, and you don’t use condition damage setups in Zerker gear. Those are examples of the gear fighting the rest of the build.

This isn’t an honest attempt to answer my question. 65003 warrior in soldiers gear vs warrior is only 30% difference in crit chance. So instead of 95% crit chance it’s 65%. Sure, the damage is less, obviously. sure on crit sigils (those are meta?) are less effective. So what? The meta GS+axe warrior build is functionally the same. The skills and act the same way. Only one of them will deal more damage and other will be able to take more hits. The playstyle is not one iota different, just the effectiveness. I’m talking about playstyles in my question, not effectiveness.

So try and answer it again.

Increasing the number of optimal builds necessitates increasing the number of optimal stat combinations.

Not true. The optimal warrior build is 65003. It wouldn’t take any stat changes to make 66020 better. Or 64040. Or 05063. Those are all decent warrior builds, but whats holding them back isn’t stat combinations.

Balekai.6083:

However, it’s a false choice to begin with as gear, trait and weapon choices aren’t mutually exclusive. The majority of build power and diversity comes from gear stats in GW2. There are many traits and skills that are useless unless you gear for them correctly.

This isn’t true. GW2 PvE build diversity comes from weapon choice, traits and utility skills. Build effectiveness comes from stats. Wall of Reflection still reflects regardless of your gear. Shake it Off removes the same condition in berserker gear or Knights gear. Are we even playing the same game?