Guild Wars 2

There has been talk lately about the dev comments that Ascended armor would be recommended for higher tier raids, which stands to reason since it provides a slight stat boost over Exotic armor. Others have suggested that this stat boost is small enough that it shouldn’t make a huge difference and those without Ascended armor will likely be fine, but knowing human nature, groups will likely demand Ascended armor of the players, and not just any Ascended armor, the ideal statted versions. I think I have a possible solution to this though.

Scale armor down to Exotic levels in raids.

I’m not sure how much tech this would take on the devs’ side, but they already have stat scaling based on level, such that a level 70 character scaled up to level 80 by various content would have the same base stats, why not apply the same principle to gear?

Currently an Exotic Heavy Coat will provide +134/96/96 to three different stats. An Ascended version would provide +141/101/101 to those same stats. So why not design it so that when you enter a raid, if you are wearing a Berserker’s Coat, then regardless of whether it is Ascended, Exotic, whatever, it will offer you +144 Power, 101 Ferocity, 101 Precision.

That way, not only would the stat different not be a big deal, it wouldn’t be any issue at all, and players with both exotic and ascended armor could work together without anyone being a drag on the team. This would also reduce the necessity for them to make Ascended armor more available to casual players.

Raids are not meant for casual players. This is the competitive content that competitive players have been asking for.

Making the hard work people do to get Ascended meaningless is a bad idea IMO.

Raids are not meant for casual players. This is the competitive content that competitive players have been asking for.

Making the hard work people do to get Ascended meaningless is a bad idea IMO.

So you would prefer that they just make Ascended armor much easier to come by, so that players can stock up on it? I don’t know, that’s one way to go with it, but it sort of devalues the process of earning it.

Ohoni.6057:

Raids are not meant for casual players. This is the competitive content that competitive players have been asking for.

Making the hard work people do to get Ascended meaningless is a bad idea IMO.

So you would prefer that they just make Ascended armor much easier to come by, so that players can stock up on it? I don’t know, that’s one way to go with it, but it sort of devalues the process of earning it.

Yeah no, if you don’t want to put in the effort to get the gear then raids really aren’t designed for you.

Ascended gear has been available for 3 years now, if you couldn’t be bothered to get it then you weren’t going to bother to learn raid mechanics anyway.

Said above but worth saying again. If you haven’t got yourself Ascended then you haven’t done high level Fractals so you’ve been actively ignoring the hard content in game so far – why are you trying to impose your philosophy on the content now?

Its designed for people who want that high end experience – you have shown yourself not to be that kind of person, it would be like someone who hated jumping complaining about SAB.

On top of all that its +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat there will be VERY few, to the point of almost impossible, groups who will fail to get a kill eventually with such a tiny stat difference.

Ohoni.6057:

There has been talk lately about the dev comments that Ascended armor would be recommended for higher tier raids, which stands to reason since it provides a slight stat boost over Exotic armor. Others have suggested that this stat boost is small enough that it shouldn’t make a huge difference and those without Ascended armor will likely be fine, but knowing human nature, groups will likely demand Ascended armor of the players, and not just any Ascended armor, the ideal statted versions. I think I have a possible solution to this though.

Scale armor down to Exotic levels in raids.

I’m not sure how much tech this would take on the devs’ side, but they already have stat scaling based on level, such that a level 70 character scaled up to level 80 by various content would have the same base stats, why not apply the same principle to gear?

Currently an Exotic Heavy Coat will provide +134/96/96 to three different stats. An Ascended version would provide +141/101/101 to those same stats. So why not design it so that when you enter a raid, if you are wearing a Berserker’s Coat, then regardless of whether it is Ascended, Exotic, whatever, it will offer you +144 Power, 101 Ferocity, 101 Precision.

That way, not only would the stat different not be a big deal, it wouldn’t be any issue at all, and players with both exotic and ascended armor could work together without anyone being a drag on the team. This would also reduce the necessity for them to make Ascended armor more available to casual players.

No, no, and yep i waited so kitten log to say NO CASUAL, step up, geear up and man up! Wipe your tears and work your s**T to the top! If you desire something, work for it! You have more then enough content, and as colin said, if you cannot handle raids go dungeon and fractal, because that’s where you’ll find experience and basics for raids.

Sorry mate if it sounds this way, but i have been waiting for hard content so long, i havent done other but fractals in PvE last few two years because there is nothing challenging enough to be worth spending my time, i simply dont enjoy 1111 content. I want hard stuff, and tons of other people are tired of easy content as well. So again work your way up, and you’re more then welcome to join!

Ascended will likely become easier to acquire as the game progresses and it’s added to more rewards. See season 2 for example with the rings and the chest pieces. Raids will probably give away ascended in the same way traditional raids drop gear. If they want raids to be truly challenging, you’re going to need several sets of ascended and multiple characters to optimize your raid. Hardcore progression raiding means certain builds and potentially entire professions simply won’t be good enough.

I would assume that raids will eventually require ascended and not just be recommended. WvW, general PvE and fractals all have infusions specific to their content, so expect raids to also get something unique. Progression through infusions was the original plan for vertical progression back when ascended was revealed.

On top of all that its +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat there will be VERY few, to the point of almost impossible, groups who will fail to get a kill eventually with such a tiny stat difference.

So let’s take that concern off the table by making that difference not exist.

No, no, and yep i waited so kitten log to say NO CASUAL, step up, geear up and man up! Wipe your tears and work your s**T to the top!

Thank you, that is a perfect example of the sort of toxic behavior that could obliterate this game if left unchecked.

Ascended will likely become easier to acquire as the game progresses and it’s added to more rewards. See season 2 for example with the rings and the chest pieces.

The jewelry is pretty easy to get. There’s pretty much no excuse to not have full Ascended jewelry at this point. The other parts are no easier to come by than they were when the systems launched.

Ohoni.6057:

On top of all that its +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat there will be VERY few, to the point of almost impossible, groups who will fail to get a kill eventually with such a tiny stat difference.

So let’s take that concern off the table by making that difference not exist.

There is not reason top it off. It shows people who has it EARNED IT

Ohoni.6057:

Thank you, that is a perfect example of the sort of toxic behavior that could obliterate this game if left unchecked.

The only toxic behavior here comes from troll threads and post made by people who only believe they are ENTITLED to everything because they bought the game. And we don’t want such entitlement.

Firelysm.4967:

Sorry mate if it sounds this way, but i have been waiting for hard content so long, i havent done other but fractals in PvE last few two years because there is nothing challenging enough to be worth spending my time, i simply dont enjoy 1111 content. I want hard stuff, and tons of other people are tired of easy content as well. So again work your way up, and you’re more then welcome to join!

Let’s be honest for a minute. Is it challenge you want, or rewards? Because if it’s challenge, have you tried soloing dungeons in white (basic) armor? I doubt it, because while that may be much more challenging, the rewards are the same as if you ran it with a team all wearing ascended.

If you’re running around in the very best gear, and upset that the game’s too easy for you, you’re kind of shooting yourself in the foot. The people that need the best gear are the worst players, so it can give them a boost. Lower your gear quality, and I bet you’d start seeing more challenge in the game even without raids.

There is not reason top it off. It shows people who has it EARNED IT

But one of the core promises of this game was that there would be no vertical progression, that you would not never better than exotic gear in order to be able to do any content in the game. They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids, but they can make that right by removing that stat difference.

Raids themselves are going to help you gear up.

I’m sure Ascended boxes are going to drop in raids and probably at a higher drop rate than open world PvE. Along with the ingredients to make legendary armor.

I feel like people are thinking this content is going to be so hard that people can’t beat it, but if it’s anything like Underworld and DoA from GW1, its not going to be so overly hard that you can’t beat it. It’s just that you are going to have to beat it a lot, to farm for your legendary gear, just like you had to for Primeval gear.

Is it more challenging than open world PvE? Sure.

I mean, pugs are getting the first boss down to 30-50% in exotic gear, not knowing the fight at all, and not used to the dedicated healer and tank meta. Once everyone knows the fight mechanics, pugs will be clearing it easily.

I am +1 for stat scaling in raids though. It doesn’t leave anyone out who doesn’t want to farm gear for stats. The core of the GW2 player base played GW1 which did not have a vertical progression at all, you bought max level gear from a vendor. You did the challenging content because there were awesome skins inside the content, or you just did it to say you beat it.

It also lets Arenanet more thoroughly balance raid fights because they don’t have to worry about if a fight is too hard for a full group of exotics or if it’s too easy for a full group of ascended. They can just make it as hard as they want it to be because everyone has the same stats regardless.

Raids themselves are going to help you gear up.

I’m sure Ascended boxes are going to drop in raids and probably at a higher drop rate than open world PvE. Along with the ingredients to make legendary armor.

So, WoW style geargrind? Exactly the thing GW2 was meant to combat? The whole reason that millions of players bought GW2 instead of WoW? Fan-kitten-tastic.

But even setting aside how awful that is from a conceptual standpoint, it’s still a bad idea mechanically. It’ll mean getting a bunch of armor drops that may be of no value to you, AND it’ll mean having to successfully engage content where most groups are likely to ostracize players who don’t already have full Ascended. And the drop rates would have to be WAY higher than in any existing content for it to be at all worth it, like better than the drop rate of Exotic items from most current content. There’s no point in running raids for a chance of Ascended that is less than 1:5.

I feel like people are thinking this content is going to be so hard that people can’t beat it, but if it’s anything like Underworld and DoA from GW1, its not going to be so overly hard that you can’t beat it. It’s just that you are going to have to beat it a lot, to farm for your legendary gear, just like you had to for Primeval gear.

A lot of people who play GW2 did not play GW1, and would not want to play GW1, so “because GW1 did it” is not a convincing argument about why something should be in GW2. GW2 launched as a significant improvement over previous MMOs, including GW1, and this recent shift seems to be a backslide.

I am +1 for stat scaling in raids though. It doesn’t leave anyone out who doesn’t want to farm gear for stats. The core of the GW2 player base played GW1 which did not have a vertical progression at all, you bought max level gear from a vendor. You did the challenging content because there were awesome skins inside the content, or you just did it to say you beat it.

It also lets Arenanet more thoroughly balance raid fights because they don’t have to worry about if a fight is too hard for a full group of exotics or if it’s too easy for a full group of ascended. They can just make it as hard as they want it to be because everyone has the same stats regardless.

Exactly.

Ohoni.6057:

There is not reason top it off. It shows people who has it EARNED IT

But one of the core promises of this game was that there would be no vertical progression, that you would not never better than exotic gear in order to be able to do any content in the game. They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids, but they can make that right by removing that stat difference.

These statements themselves are lies. Quote your sources. " there would be no vertical progression," where does that come from? The MERE existence of White → Fine → Masterwork → Rare → Exotic → Ascended tiers since the creation of the game (2 months after creation of the game count as the same time period as the creation of the game) Ascended gears have existed since. We have vertical progression. They NEVER EVER promised no vertical progression. They promised NO CONTINUAL NON STOP vertical progression.

“They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids,” This is a fragmented sentence. If ascended gear is going to… so what? You don’t follow an “if” with a “but” what’s your point?

wow, did they really change ascended gear acquisition so that some accounts are prohibited from getting them? That is really an outrage!

These statements themselves are lies. Quote your sources. " there would be no vertical progression," where does that come from? The MERE existence of White ? Fine ? Masterwork ? Rare ? Exotic ?

Sorry if I was unclear, “no vertical progression beyond endgame.” The idea was that you would hit endgame, be able to acquire Exotic armor easily enough, and it would be your Forever Armor, never to be surpassed.

They did make a lie of this promise in relatively short order with the introduction of Ascended armor, but since Exotic was plenty good for any of the content in the game, and Ascended was only marginally better anyways, players would do perfectly fine without it.

Now since then, they have slowly made Ascended more important, a bit like putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly bringing it to boil, rather than trying to drop him into an already boiling pot. They started with only Ascended trinkets, and only the hit of ascended trinkets, so players could take heart that they would only end up a few stat points behind for lack of them. Then they added weapons, then armor. They have increased the value of gear stats in scaling, so that players in Ascended are more likely to notice the Exotic/Ascended difference, and now they are adding content that is more likely to leave you at a razor’s edge of pass/fail, where a 10% damage difference might allow you to kill the thing 10% faster, meaning if you fail it and he has 5% life left, that might have been the problem.

So yeah, it is different than we were promised when the game launched, and to some of us, that really is a problem. Feel free to disagree, so long as you respect the opinions of those you disagree with as being equally valid to your own.

“They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids,” This is a fragmented sentence. If ascended gear is going to… so what? You don’t follow an “if” with a “but” what’s your point?

Whether you disagree with the point being made, it is a complete sentence. Do I have to break down the structure for you? I’m a bit long out of middle school for that, but I can take a crack at it. Would it help if I shifted the begining and end of it, “if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids, [then] they make a lie of that [‘that’ in this case referring to the previous commitment to no gear grind].”

Ohoni.6057:

There is not reason top it off. It shows people who has it EARNED IT

But one of the core promises of this game was that there would be no vertical progression, that you would not never better than exotic gear in order to be able to do any content in the game. They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids, but they can make that right by removing that stat difference.

One tier in 3 years is hardly vertical progression is it? The gear progression in that other game was a new tier every 6 months which is why it was called a treadmill – if you stopped playing you’d fall behind quickly.

Jordo.5913:

I feel like people are thinking this content is going to be so hard that people can’t beat it, but if it’s anything like Underworld and DoA from GW1, its not going to be so overly hard that you can’t beat it. It’s just that you are going to have to beat it a lot, to farm for your legendary gear, just like you had to for Primeval gear.

So the solution to avoid grinds in the open world for ascended armor is to fill in grinds(“going to have to beat it a lot”) in raids for legendary armor pres? A grind 2.0 basically?^^

One tier in 3 years is hardly vertical progression is it?

It’s slow vertical progression, but progression nonetheless.

The gear progression in that other game was a new tier every 6 months which is why it was called a treadmill – if you stopped playing you’d fall behind quickly.

And yet there are people who have been playing consistently all three years that are still behind that progression, mainly because they were told they would never have to get on it, and players new to the game will take about 3-6 months to get on it, much longer if they aren’t dedicated to the task.

Ohoni.6057:

The gear progression in that other game was a new tier every 6 months which is why it was called a treadmill – if you stopped playing you’d fall behind quickly.

And yet there are people who have been playing consistently all three years that are still behind that progression, mainly because they were told they would never have to get on it, and players new to the game will take about 3-6 months to get on it, much longer if they aren’t dedicated to the task.

Yeeah that’s not really the target audience though is it? If the raids are indeed “challenging” then I’m not sure gear parity would help them much. The main barriers are being able to raid at least a few nights a week with a guild to progress, and being good enough. Most people who tick those boxes already have the gear or are motivated enough to get it within a month or two.

I continue to find fault with the basic premise, despite the source, that full ascended gear will be needed. Ascended trinkets are easy to get, even for new players with a little effort. The difference between exotic and ascended armor is quite tiny. I simply don’t believe that the raids can be so finely tuned that such a minute difference will have an impact, because it would mean there is almost zero margin for error. The one spot ascended vs exotic might come close to making a small difference is with the weapons and crafting a few weapons is far less arduous than making a set of armor. Hence, as a newer player wanting to raid, my focus is on making ascended weapons.

Palador.2170:

Firelysm.4967:

Sorry mate if it sounds this way, but i have been waiting for hard content so long, i havent done other but fractals in PvE last few two years because there is nothing challenging enough to be worth spending my time, i simply dont enjoy 1111 content. I want hard stuff, and tons of other people are tired of easy content as well. So again work your way up, and you’re more then welcome to join!

Let’s be honest for a minute. Is it challenge you want, or rewards? Because if it’s challenge, have you tried soloing dungeons in white (basic) armor? I doubt it, because while that may be much more challenging, the rewards are the same as if you ran it with a team all wearing ascended.

If you’re running around in the very best gear, and upset that the game’s too easy for you, you’re kind of shooting yourself in the foot. The people that need the best gear are the worst players, so it can give them a boost. Lower your gear quality, and I bet you’d start seeing more challenge in the game even without raids.

Soloing dungeon is boring as fruit! There is nothing challenging there since the biggest challenge is to “skip to the end” Seriously dude, GW2 dungeons are the worst content right after world bosses.

Polador, please, people don’t need the best gear, i just made it because i was so kitten bored in GW2, i still don’t have legendary, because there is no good looking bow make it long or short and there is no amazing pistol, that’s my reason why i got some gear and why i didnt get some of them, but what did i get myself for exchange? Entire collection of chaos & tormented weapons.

And also Polador, that’s just like saying, i play pvp with only weapon skills no utilities no elite and without healing, i just do it because other way content is to easy..
Give me a break, my point is, i want challenge so hard, that you need the best gear that you can possibly get, just to stand a chance, and so hard mechanics of boss that if you don’t think what you do and care for your position, then you are as good as wasting your time.

If your FUN is beating level 80 mobs naked, fine, no problem, but that’s not my type of FUN, enjoy casual content as you desire, but i’m here for more challenge, and after last 2 years of just lurking around being bored, i’m more then ready for raids!

Torolan.5816:

Jordo.5913:

I feel like people are thinking this content is going to be so hard that people can’t beat it, but if it’s anything like Underworld and DoA from GW1, its not going to be so overly hard that you can’t beat it. It’s just that you are going to have to beat it a lot, to farm for your legendary gear, just like you had to for Primeval gear.

So the solution to avoid grinds in the open world for ascended armor is to fill in grinds(“going to have to beat it a lot”) in raids for legendary armor pres? A grind 2.0 basically?^^

God help us all if that happens

Soo many players all saying they’re more deserving of the content that We’ve ALL paid for and have a right to. IMO people are just trying to justify all the time that they’ve already spent gathering gear with a next to negligible stat difference just so that they can feel like better players for having it.

Ohoni.6057:

On top of all that its +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat there will be VERY few, to the point of almost impossible, groups who will fail to get a kill eventually with such a tiny stat difference.

So let’s take that concern off the table by making that difference not exist.

It only concerns YOU and as I’ve shown YOU do not have VALID concerns – its already off the table you just are trying to desperately put it back on (and failing).

Ascended Armour stats WILL NOT influence a group’s ability to down a boss eventually. This thread is just someone trying to trick people into thinking there is an issue where there isn’t.

+20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stats will not block ANYONE from content.

Firelysm.4967:

Soloing dungeon is boring as fruit! There is nothing challenging there since the biggest challenge is to “skip to the end” Seriously dude, GW2 dungeons are the worst content right after world bosses.

Polador, please, people don’t need the best gear, i just made it because i was so kitten bored in GW2, i still don’t have legendary, because there is no good looking bow make it long or short and there is no amazing pistol, that’s my reason why i got some gear and why i didnt get some of them, but what did i get myself for exchange? Entire collection of chaos & tormented weapons.

And also Polador, that’s just like saying, i play pvp with only weapon skills no utilities no elite and without healing, i just do it because other way content is to easy..
Give me a break, my point is, i want challenge so hard, that you need the best gear that you can possibly get, just to stand a chance, and so hard mechanics of boss that if you don’t think what you do and care for your position, then you are as good as wasting your time.

If your FUN is beating level 80 mobs naked, fine, no problem, but that’s not my type of FUN, enjoy casual content as you desire, but i’m here for more challenge, and after last 2 years of just lurking around being bored, i’m more then ready for raids!

I had a long response typed out for this, but re-reading it showed it to be a rambling mess. So I’ll just sum it up as “Content you refuse to face or over-gear for will never be a challenge, but that’s on the player’s head just as much as it is on ANet. Barring Fractals, no old content was ever made for ascended, and even exotic was supposed to be optional. If you’ve been making things as easy as possible on yourself, then who’s fault is it that things are easy?”

Final Thought I would actually like to see ANet introduce a new tier of gear into the raids, but one with stats LOWER than ascended. Let’s call it “discordant” gear. Discordant gear could take a new kind of infusion, attuning it to specific kinds of damage. Then, when you face certain raid bosses, only the discordant weapons attuned to the right kind of damage can hurt them (possibly only during specific phases), and only correctly attuned discordant armor will count for defense against some attacks. This would finally make “Best Stats” not always “Best In Slot”, and give raiders an extra layer of complexity to face.

NayNay.7680:

Soo many players all saying they’re more deserving of the content that We’ve ALL paid for and have a right to. IMO people are just trying to justify all the time that they’ve already spent gathering gear with a next to negligible stat difference just so that they can feel like better players for having it.

In that case by your logic why dont they just give you exotic armor when you start the game? I mean you did pay for the content and the exotic items! Just because some dude that made it to level 80 can feel good about it! Pff

No your version if unfair. You see I want a game where I have something challengingto do, something where I have to think a bit and not jsut spam 1 and speed run the dungeon for the 70th time in 15min.

If you make everything easy, then it is unfair as only the people who want a simple game win. If you let us have the hard content it is fair as we have something difficult to do while you still have your COF p1 10min speedrun to do.

And also if you played the beta or saw it on youtube, you will have noticed 2 things.

1. People that came really far in the raid ALL HAD EXOTIC items because they were on beta characters.

2 They failed because the had tricky mechanics they hadnt learnt yet and needed to cooperate, NOT LACK OF ASCENDED.

Im tired of speed runs. Let me have my 50 fractals and raids, and you have your world events and dungeons, but dont force us all to play skill-1 games.

So what you’re saying is, take the expensive acquisition of ascended armor and weapons, that players spent time and gold on for the expressed purpose of a fractional increase in stat numbers… and make the whole purpose of acquiring said armor null and void by making it equivalent to exotics.

You know the crafting difference between a +4 and a +5 infusion? I worked my butt off for every last stat point on my gear, and I did so with the expectation that the stats actually, y’know, work

You view exotics as “forever armor” but Anet was pretty explicit when ascended was released. It is top tier, but it is not a huge statistical jump from exotics so people can “get by” without it in stead of being completely locked out of content This is highly unlikely to change in raids. Whether players insist on all ascended isn’t anet’s fault, but I assure you, as someone wearing a full set of exotics with +5 infusions, the difference is negligable unless I’m actively reading my incoming or outgoing damage numbers. In most cases a mob that takes kittens to kill… still takes kittens.

Agony resistance was the optional mechanic. Ascended was specifically designed as the assumed endgame gear goal, but as a very soft buff, like moving from a major to a superior health rune in GW1.

Anet literally created ascended because people were gearing out in exotics in a week. That was the stated reason of adding an additional tier even though they didn’t want the game to be about a constant gear treadmill.

Ascended is time consuming and costly to acquire specifically because it is the last gear you will need, ever It’s the same reason they’re not letting people outlevel raids, and it’s the same reason they’re not making any new legendaries tradable.

Whether you like it or not Anet wants people to work on ascended gear at 80 but it doesn’t want to force them to do so by completely excluding them from content.

Anet does not view exotics as “endgame gear”

They simply make sure that the almost best gear isn’t light years behind the best.

Unless they add agony to raids you’re still going to get a more noticable buff from food and party members than from swapping to ascended.

Ohoni.6057:

Sorry if I was unclear, “no vertical progression beyond endgame.” The idea was that you would hit endgame, be able to acquire Exotic armor easily enough, and it would be your Forever Armor, never to be surpassed.

Lies. There was no promised that when you hit end game then the armor you easily buy with 2g from the tp would be your “Forever Armor” there was no forever armor in citation. QUOTE YOUR SOURCES. There was no promise of a non vertical progression beyond exotic. The fact is that you can’t quote your sources heavily implies that you just made your position and spread lies in the forum.

Ohoni.6057:

They did make a lie of this promise in relatively short order with the introduction of Ascended armor, but since Exotic was plenty good for any of the content in the game, and Ascended was only marginally better anyways, players would do perfectly fine without it.

No they never came out and said you won’t ever need ascended armor or ascended trinkets/weapons in future content. Again quote your sources with links to original articles. You can do 99% of current end game contents NAKED. Exotic? Whatever. It doesn’t mean the Dev said won’t need armors/weapons/trinkets.

Again stop spreading lies. You have no sources. There was no promised that nothing would be beyond exotic. There was no promise of no vertical progression. Stop the lies.

Ohoni.6057:

Now since then, they have slowly made Ascended more important, a bit like putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly bringing it to boil, rather than trying to drop him into an already boiling pot. They started with only Ascended trinkets, and only the hit of ascended trinkets, so players could take heart that they would only end up a few stat points behind for lack of them. Then they added weapons, then armor. They have increased the value of gear stats in scaling, so that players in Ascended are more likely to notice the Exotic/Ascended difference, and now they are adding content that is more likely to leave you at a razor’s edge of pass/fail, where a 10% damage difference might allow you to kill the thing 10% faster, meaning if you fail it and he has 5% life left, that might have been the problem.

The only “end game” equipment quality IS ASCENDED / Legendary. If don’t pursue the end game equipment and use “mid game” equipment like exotic, it is your fault for not pursuing end game equipment to begin with. It’s not the dev’s fault or the content fault.

Ohoni.6057:

“They make a lie of that if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids,” This is a fragmented sentence. If ascended gear is going to… so what? You don’t follow an “if” with a “but” what’s your point?

Whether you disagree with the point being made, it is a complete sentence. Do I have to break down the structure for you? I’m a bit long out of middle school for that, but I can take a crack at it. Would it help if I shifted the begining and end of it, “if Ascended gear is going to provide a significant advantage in Raids, [then] they make a lie of that [‘that’ in this case referring to the previous commitment to no gear grind].”

It’s not my problem when you write gibberish throwing away words and expect people to understand your sentence. The onus is on you when you write the sentence to have people understand it. Learn to write is the first thing kids in middle school do you know.

I continue to find fault with the basic premise, despite the source, that full ascended gear will be needed. Ascended trinkets are easy to get, even for new players with a little effort. The difference between exotic and ascended armor is quite tiny. I simply don’t believe that the raids can be so finely tuned that such a minute difference will have an impact, because it would mean there is almost zero margin for error. The one spot ascended vs exotic might come close to making a small difference is with the weapons and crafting a few weapons is far less arduous than making a set of armor. Hence, as a newer player wanting to raid, my focus is on making ascended weapons.

Whether it makes a practical difference or not, players will exclude other players who lack ascended armor, and community toxicity will result from that. Do you guarantee that you would never turn away a player from your party for having only Exotic armor?

In any case, if you believe that the difference it would make would be negligible, then why not add the gear-scaling, to take that problem from “negligible” to “nonexistent.”

In that case by your logic why dont they just give you exotic armor when you start the game? I mean you did pay for the content and the exotic items! Just because some dude that made it to level 80 can feel good about it! Pff

They practically do. I mean Exotic armor is pretty much nothing to acquire. And they hand you plenty of rare armor as you level as leveling rewards. I don’t get the point you’re making here.

1. People that came really far in the raid ALL HAD EXOTIC items because they were on beta characters.

You do know that there were NPCs handing out free Ascended gear inside the raid, so the teams doing the raid content were in full Ascended. Right?

Maybe they should just leave that NPC in?

2 They failed because the had tricky mechanics they hadnt learnt yet and needed to cooperate, NOT LACK OF ASCENDED.

That’s certainly a part of it, although it stands to reason that some of the groups that succeeded did so by a slim enough margin that even some small stat differences could have ruined it.

Ohoni.6057:

They practically do. I mean Exotic armor is pretty much nothing to acquire. And they hand you plenty of rare armor as you level as leveling rewards.

You’re right for the first time. You said it yourself here. Exotic armor is beginning game equipment. It’s not end game. If a person doesn’t have end game equipment, then it’s not the dev’s fault that they sometimes get excluded from end game party.

BaconofPigs.1683:

Ohoni.6057:

They practically do. I mean Exotic armor is pretty much nothing to acquire. And they hand you plenty of rare armor as you level as leveling rewards.

You’re right for the first time. You said it yourself here. Exotic armor is beginning game equipment. It’s not end game. If a person doesn’t have end game equipment, then it’s not the dev’s fault that they sometimes get excluded from end game party.

Actually, I think that means the devs share a very large part of the blame in this case.

Ohoni.6057:

In that case by your logic why dont they just give you exotic armor when you start the game? I mean you did pay for the content and the exotic items! Just because some dude that made it to level 80 can feel good about it! Pff

They practically do. I mean Exotic armor is pretty much nothing to acquire. And they hand you plenty of rare armor as you level as leveling rewards. I don’t get the point you’re making here.

So why should someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort? In games and most certainly MMOs you’resupposed to work yourself up. It is a game, not a movie. It is supposed to challenge you.

Tell me an MMO or game in the world where you get everything at level 1 and where you can instantly go to the last boss “because you bought the game”.

I want my Hard Mode, my Domain of Anguish, my Obsidian armor and something to actually do after getting level 80 that requires me to hit more than skill nr 1 and stack in a corner. GW1 had that and I bought GW2 hoping for more of that. Its a game for all players, not just casuals and after 3 years of 15 minute dungeons its aboud kitten time.

People without prior knowledge, pug groups and mostly exotics did it, certainly you should after some practice right?

You’re right for the first time. You said it yourself here. Exotic armor is beginning game equipment. It’s not end game. If a person doesn’t have end game equipment, then it’s not the dev’s fault that they sometimes get excluded from end game party.

Well, it’s sort of endgame equipment, in that it’s not available until the last 10-15 levels, and even then you aren’t likely to bother with it until you hit 80, but you seem to think that there should be “endgame equipment,” that this should be a thing anyone should care about.

One of the major features of GW2 is that we don’t have to care about what you refer to as “endgame equipment,” that the entire game of GW2 is ALL endgame.

So why should someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort?

Presumably because they want to..

Because you ask the question, I assume you disagree, so let me ask, why shouldn’t someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort?

In games and most certainly MMOs you’resupposed to work yourself up. It is a game, not a movie. It is supposed to challenge you.

Gear grind and content challenge are two completely different things. You can have either without the other.

Tell me an MMO or game in the world where you get everything at level 1 and where you can instantly go to the last boss “because you bought the game”.

None that I can think of, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

Ohoni.6057:

So why should someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort?

Presumably because they want to..

Because you ask the question, I assume you disagree, so let me ask, why shouldn’t someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort?

In games and most certainly MMOs you’resupposed to work yourself up. It is a game, not a movie. It is supposed to challenge you.

Gear grind and content challenge are two completely different things. You can have either without the other.

Tell me an MMO or game in the world where you get everything at level 1 and where you can instantly go to the last boss “because you bought the game”.

None that I can think of, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

Why buy a game if you want to put no effort at all into it? Better go watch it on youtube or buy a movie, those play themselves without any effort.

Its just like the AR in fractals, it is there to make sure the players that reach the most difficult fractal 50 actually know what they are doing and played the easier versions of it before. You already played all these easy simple dungeons, you should have some money, gear and skill to get by. Imagine the pain of LFG fractal 50 where you 90% of time get a first time guy that runs in and wipes all the time. You play with people at your level, low or high.

Plus, ascended armor is no point in getting as the stats increase is so super small anyhow, and the rings and earrings which actually may matter, you practically also get for free with the daily login laurels.

Basically youre complaining about a prooven non-issue (ascended that matters is easy to get and peopel did it with almost no ascended), while seeming to forget what a game is and that it is for all sorts of people, not just you.

6months of so, doing 1-3 fractals a day….. 5 full sets of ascended and lots of spare parts, especially shoulders ready to be salvaged.

Ascended isnt hard to get if you actually play that which requires it. If you cant be bothered with that than Raids wont be for you as if you cant be bothered/afford to spend 30-50minutes in a fractal run then you will not be able to spend HOURS in a raid.

Don’t like fractals? Well you be making gold playing how you want to play. Given you want raids I would suggest you like PvE and thus you should have got enough in your time to make the armour if you dont spend it on unneccesary stuff.

kirima san.3760:

Tell me an MMO or game in the world where you get everything at level 1 and where you can instantly go to the last boss “because you bought the game”.

If only someone could develop a game that’s different than other MMOs. Where you have fun, instead of spending time getting ready to have fun. A game where they can say “If you don’t like MMOs, this is the MMO for you.”

Oh, wait. That’s supposed to be this game, is it not? I guess that’s why in SPvP, you get boosted to level 80 and get the same level of gear as everyone else right away, huh? Because they wanted it to be all about skill, not about letting your gear hinder you or carry you. A way to let the truly elite players shine, without throwing a bunch of roadblocks in their way while the less skilled but better geared have a chance to pretend to be good.

But hey, raids! I guess that’s your thing, right?

Now, with all THAT said, I’m increasingly opposed to the OP’s idea. Not that anyone in this thread has convinced me otherwise (you really haven’t), but because you really have had to do some work to get this stuff. Having it suddenly NOT be what you earned in some area of the game really isn’t fair. (Naturally, this excludes SPvP, for reasons stated.) Like it or not, it’s fairly earned PvE gear, you should be able to use it in PvE. If that means that raids are tuned to that level, then so be it.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re right for the first time. You said it yourself here. Exotic armor is beginning game equipment. It’s not end game. If a person doesn’t have end game equipment, then it’s not the dev’s fault that they sometimes get excluded from end game party.

Well, it’s sort of endgame equipment, in that it’s not available until the last 10-15 levels, and even then you aren’t likely to bother with it until you hit 80, but you seem to think that there should be “endgame equipment,” that this should be a thing anyone should care about.

One of the major features of GW2 is that we don’t have to care about what you refer to as “endgame equipment,” that the entire game of GW2 is ALL endgame.

It doesn’t matter whether I seem to think that there should be “endgame equipment” or not. There is end game equipment, that is ascended. Period. In a game where there is vertical progression which Guild Wars 2 is one, one of the end goals would be to obtain end game equipment i.e., ascended or legendary if you care more about the aesthetic aspect.

One of the major features of GW2 is that we DO have end game equipment thank you. The entire game of guild wars 2 is all endgame is your opinion of it. Not fact.

Also there is no sort of. There is or there isn’t. Exotic is never meant to be end game. Just like rare, masterwork, fine, common none of which are end game equipment. Ascended is.

BaconofPigs.1683:

One of the major features of GW2 is that we DO have end game equipment thank you. The entire game of guild wars 2 is all endgame is your opinion of it. Not fact.

That’s actually a remark made by one of the devs. He’s just repeating it. I’d say the remark has merit.

kirima san.3760:

Ohoni.6057:

So why should someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort?

Presumably because they want to..

Because you ask the question, I assume you disagree, so let me ask, why shouldn’t someone with free armor be able to come to the most difficult part of the game without any effort?

In games and most certainly MMOs you’resupposed to work yourself up. It is a game, not a movie. It is supposed to challenge you.

Gear grind and content challenge are two completely different things. You can have either without the other.

Tell me an MMO or game in the world where you get everything at level 1 and where you can instantly go to the last boss “because you bought the game”.

None that I can think of, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic at hand.

Why buy a game if you want to put no effort at all into it? Better go watch it on youtube or buy a movie, those play themselves without any effort.

Its just like the AR in fractals, it is there to make sure the players that reach the most difficult fractal 50 actually know what they are doing and played the easier versions of it before. You already played all these easy simple dungeons, you should have some money, gear and skill to get by. Imagine the pain of LFG fractal 50 where you 90% of time get a first time guy that runs in and wipes all the time. You play with people at your level, low or high.

Plus, ascended armor is no point in getting as the stats increase is so super small anyhow, and the rings and earrings which actually may matter, you practically also get for free with the daily login laurels.

Basically youre complaining about a prooven non-issue (ascended that matters is easy to get and peopel did it with almost no ascended), while seeming to forget what a game is and that it is for all sorts of people, not just you.

Exactly. What the OP wants is a skyrim type of gear generation. ~ player.additem Eternity 001. Why work of the gear while you can just convince the dev to give you a console command to generate the items right?

Palador.2170:

BaconofPigs.1683:

One of the major features of GW2 is that we DO have end game equipment thank you. The entire game of guild wars 2 is all endgame is your opinion of it. Not fact.

That’s actually a remark made by one of the devs. He’s just repeating it. I’d say the remark has merit.

Misquoted at best. The devs were referring dynamic scaling system where you are downscale proportionally according to your gear and levels down to the level of the contents. There is no scaling at level 80 -except for base stat scaling- in fractal and wvw.

BaconofPigs.1683:

Misquoted at best. The devs were referring dynamic scaling system where you are downscale proportionally according to your gear and levels down to the level of the contents. There is no scaling at level 80 -except for base stat scaling- in fractal and wvw.

Until now, there’s never really been a reason for there to be any. If there is or not now is kind of the entire question here.

I can see some solid merits to it, but I’m still going to say that I oppose the idea in the end. I just want people to think about it before they decide, because what raiders get in these raids may be what they’re stuck with, for good or bad. And if enough people dismiss raids as having too high of a gate for entry and never even try them, then that’s going to be bad for raiders.

This is a bad idea.
For the player-base who worked to get ascended armor for the minor stat increase, turning around and getting rid of that increase in the content tailored to those exact players would be one of the stupidest decisions made in MMORPG history.

If you can’t put in the effort to get ascended armor/weapons then you won’t be clearing raid content anyway so why complain?

Why buy a game if you want to put no effort at all into it? Better go watch it on youtube or buy a movie, those play themselves without any effort.

Why make straw man arguments rather than addressing what a person is actually saying? I couldn’t tell you.

Its just like the AR in fractals, it is there to make sure the players that reach the most difficult fractal 50 actually know what they are doing and played the easier versions of it before.

No it isn’t, it’s there to make sure that players don’t reach Fractal 50 in the minimum possible time. It’s a content-extending practice. A player with max AR isn’t necessarily any better than a player with none. In fact, if I wanted to I could get a full suit of ascended with max AR right now, it would cost a pretty penny but it’s entirely doable with zero skill necessary.

Gearing is zero reflection of player capability.

Plus, ascended armor is no point in getting as the stats increase is so super small anyhow, and the rings and earrings which actually may matter, you practically also get for free with the daily login laurels.

Which is why it shouldn’t be a problem if gear scaling removes that tiny, “no point” increase.

It doesn’t matter whether I seem to think that there should be “endgame equipment” or not. There is end game equipment, that is ascended. Period. In a game where there is vertical progression which Guild Wars 2 is one, one of the end goals would be to obtain end game equipment i.e., ascended or legendary if you care more about the aesthetic aspect.

. . .

I’m sorry, have you ever heard of Guild Wars 2 before today?

Also there is no sort of. There is or there isn’t. Exotic is never meant to be end game. Just like rare, masterwork, fine, common none of which are end game equipment. Ascended is.

and yet Ascended gear wasn’t even conceived until months after launch. . .

Exactly. What the OP wants is a skyrim type of gear generation. ~ player.additem Eternity 001. Why work of the gear while you can just convince the dev to give you a console command to generate the items right?

Nope, that does not accurately reflect anything I’ve said publicly or thought privately.

Palador.2170:

BaconofPigs.1683:

Misquoted at best. The devs were referring dynamic scaling system where you are downscale proportionally according to your gear and levels down to the level of the contents. There is no scaling at level 80 -except for base stat scaling- in fractal and wvw.

Until now, there’s never really been a reason for there to be any. If there is or not now is kind of the entire question here.

I can see some solid merits to it, but I’m still going to say that I oppose the idea in the end. I just want people to think about it before they decide, because what raiders get in these raids may be what they’re stuck with, for good or bad. And if enough people dismiss raids as having too high of a gate for entry and never even try them, then that’s going to be bad for raiders.

It literally takes about 1 month to deck yourself in full ascended. I’ve done it. Like my second full ascended set I actually got for free (except the 10g for the ascended accessory parts plus some material costs for sigils and runes and stuffs)

And I personally don’t think a new player just getting to lv 80 on his second day of play should be ready for raid tbh. Hence the gating. Artificial yes but really ascended has been out since 2 months after the game launch. It has been set as highest tier since the beginning.

Ohoni.6057:

Gearing is zero reflection of player capability.

No, but actually gear requires knowledge of either crafting and / or gameplay. I’m sorry but Ohoni it seems you just got the game recently. We’ll be willing to help you out learning how to craft gears or earn some money to make standard equipment if you ask nicely instead of making demands for free stuffs.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m sorry, have you ever heard of Guild Wars 2 before today?

and yet Ascended gear wasn’t even conceived until months after launch. . .

This shows here that you just began playing the game recently. Ascended tiers have come out within 2 months of the game launch. In the span of 39 months it has lived, I’m sure exotic has never been conceived as highest ever in the 37 months previously. So please if you come into the game recently here’s a good article to read about tiers in this game. Welcome to the game

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_equipment

No, but actually gear requires knowledge of either crafting and / or gameplay.

So you’re saying that if you had to choose between a player who is a level 500 crafter, but has barely left Lion’s Arch, and a player who is not a level 500 crafter, but has beaten Liadri, every dungeon, every world boss, but does not own a single piece of Ascended armor, you would choose the former player over the latter? Good luck with that raid group.

I’m sorry but Ohoni it seems you just got the game recently. We’ll be willing to help you out learning how to craft gears or earn some money to make standard equipment if you ask nicely instead of making demands for free stuffs.

Oh, not, I’ve been playing since before launch, had level 500 in all possible crafts since a few months after they had the option, and could gear all my characters in ascended tonight if I really felt like it. This isn’t about me, I just respect my fellow players who might not have those options available.

This shows here that you just began playing the game recently. Ascended tiers have come out within 2 months of the game launch.

The rings did. The weapons and armor were not added until a year into the game, and only as a reaction to players whining about wanting more gear to chase. It was meant to be a geargrind placebo, a negligible stat increase that nobody actually needed, but over time they made it into a more and more necessary element.

Ohoni.6057:

So you’re saying that if you had to choose between a player who is a level 500 crafter, but has barely left Lion’s Arch, and a player who is not a level 500 crafter, but has beaten Liadri, every dungeon, every world boss, but does not own a single piece of Ascended armor, you would choose the former player over the latter? Good luck with that raid group.

Again another trolling message. You purposely place a strawman a hypothetical situation here to be beaten down. No I would not have chosen either. Have full ascended is one of the many prerequisites. Beaten Liadri? Every dungeon? Every world boss? Please. Pieces of cakes.

As Anet said, Raids are not meant for pugs. So neither ones of your hypothetical players qualifies. To raid, you would probably need to either

A. Join a raiding guild in which you probably have to be gear checked with full ascended on two professions and be TRIALED for full proficiency which will clear raids in speed records and everyone going to have fun.

B. Join a large PvX guild and wait for your turn to be semi-carried / taught how to play correctly. Or if you’re good you can demonstrate that and lead a raid group. Depending on the guild, either case having exotic armor would be ok.

C. Not raid.

Yes I know only rings came out 2 months after release. But the tier itself has EXISTED at that time. If anyone would ever have thought that they would only release rings and not the rest would have been delusional. They did say they planned to release the rest (amulets, trinkets, weapons and then armor) at that time.