Guild Wars 2

Recently just saw a trinity thread, and maaaaan the amount of fanboys is ridiculous.

One don’t belong to a forum or game that DOESNT AND ADVERTISES IT WONT have trinity. you bought it deal with it.

Second, mainly to the people that think the zerk meta is due to the fact gw2 focuses on an emphasis on rolling and learning tells. “OH ofc the game will be easy all you have to do is roll blah blah blah”

Drop some knowledge on ya guys who THINK that a game has to be difficult to require different stat specs.

Please look up monster hunter. It is one of japan’s TOP video games. It is made by capcom. been around longer? then gw1. It has NO stats, but armor skills. and guess what you just hit kitten n it dies.

How is this gameplay difficult? Well first of all, the monsters can and will combo you if your scrub. This makes learning adn studying your opponent a huge part of the gameplay. Until you master all of its tells you will get creamedddd. I have never ever been ever to play monster hunter without sitting upright and being at full attention.

Why I LOVEEEE guild wars 2. it brougth ALOT of the fun and rewarding mechanics of that game into a very massive mulitplayer environment.

There is no active skill in a trinity, it is just someone thats good with spreadsheets designing the OP set up for a full party, running said build in a dungeon, standing still, clicking buttons in a sequence.

if i wanted to practice hitting keys, i be in a band playing keyboard.

I GET its fun to play with builds and get some sweet synergy between them. but its WAY more fun getting small synergy in a build itself, but massive synergy with your own playstyle and say a team mates? i love the pvp in this game. its fantastic and feels so evenly matched and SO many different builds and player set ups its amazing. i cant even imagine how boringgg trinity would be in pvp.

leave trinity to RTS games and enjoy being IN the game in gw2.

“There is no active skill in a trinity, it is just someone thats good with spreadsheets designing the OP set up for a full party, running said build in a dungeon, standing still, clicking buttons in a sequence.”

the irony is palpable.

the only difference between GW2 and that description of the trinity is that in GW2 you don’t click buttons in a sequence, you just press 4.

MH is a wonderful game though, so I applaud you on having excellent taste ;P

it would be nice if GW2 was more like MH, but that would require enemies to have noticable tells, yet also fairly rapid attacks, the only one I found that comes close to a MH-feel is the nageling giant, and it attacks slower than a lao-shan after eating sleepyfish.

Calcifire.1864:

“There is no active skill in a trinity, it is just someone thats good with spreadsheets designing the OP set up for a full party, running said build in a dungeon, standing still, clicking buttons in a sequence.”

the irony is palpable.

the only difference between GW2 and that description of the trinity is that in GW2 you don’t click buttons in a sequence, you just press 4.

MH is a wonderful game though, so I applaud you on having excellent taste ;P

Darn, and here I was rushing to say almost the exact same thing.

eh yea… trinity isnt the deal for me either…i however like a form of soft trinity to support eachother and we got that in very class…some stronger then others but still its there. Good enough for me.

The only things we are missing for a whole trinity is dedicated healers and those arent needed anyway due to the selfheal everyone has and the existance of water fields- why do ppl qq about it? Its a mutch more active and involved playstyle.

The game has issues. Big surprise. Mainly the stat balance between zerker and the poor neglected healing power. When did people start to think that original, refreshing ideas warranted superiority and perfection? On the contrary, but I do believe they delivered on a grand scale, it’s just about tuning and fixing… which… I guess will happen….. sometimes.

Also with the new elite specs, the focus on support could very well be that push in fixing (NOT DEDICATED HEALING) but actual supporting, which the game was intended to have from the start. Anet NEVER intended for dedicated healers and never will.

Trinity still exists, just there are no player roles to sufficiently deal with the existing trinity mechanics in game.

Someone needs to get attacked by the enemy. That person will lose health and die. People need to DPS down the enemy. Your trinity is in game, just not on the player side which is traditionally where the mechanic is dealt with via player coordination.

Removing trinity from the player side, and only having DPS as the reliable player mechanic just means instead of having someone deal with heals and tanking, you just need to DPS everything down before people start to die. Trinity is still here, just they removed players from reliably managing it.

I’m not really interested in the making tanks and healers with powerful skills to manage their role like in most games, just pointing out that simply removing two roles in the trinity doesn’t remove the NPC side of the equation, which still exists in every game that’s tried this.

Calcifire.1864:

MH is a wonderful game though, so I applaud you on having excellent taste ;P

it would be nice if GW2 was more like MH, but that would require enemies to have noticable tells, yet also fairly rapid attacks, the only one I found that comes close to a MH-feel is the nageling giant, and it attacks slower than a lao-shan after eating sleepyfish.

I personally go out of my way to solo champs, and I’ve been working on soloing arah. I’m trying to get my mh crew into gw and I honestly feel and tell them, the harder content in gw is basically mh combat for a short duration. Fighting lupi is a blasttttttt! His tells are obvious but not too long, if you mess up IT HURTS, actually just everything about fighting Champs and the bosses in arah is a blast.

I’ve been looking into the fractal content, because for the few I be done it’s been cool to see bosses with mechanics. True most dungeons are easy. But I mean there just a gold grind. There not really a point to make them tough. And everything in verdant brink is so much fun to fight.

I can’t imagine pvp with a trinity style. I love pvping how I get such a good feeling, similar to playing smash brothers whenever I play that game mode. I was just annoyed yesterday when too many posts referred to the ability to dodge roll making gw impossible to have difficult content. First thing I thought of is the renowned mh franchise and uhhh darksouls? Lol

Side note I hope Lao comes back in cross

Soooo, whats the point of this thread ? Other than making OP sound just as ridiculous as those he’s calling out ?

Delete please mods, I just lost 30 sec of my life that I’m never getting back.

Random.4691:

Soooo, whats the point of this thread ? Other than making OP sound just as ridiculous as those he’s calling out ?

Delete please mods, I just lost 30 sec of my life that I’m never getting back.

You can read fast I’m impressed 0.0

The point is that I wanted to point out other successful difficult content games that have similar elements to gw2 play style.

And especially how HoT is really capitalizing on its good elements IMO.

The ‘point’ is to bring attention to a lot of players this. It seems a common misconception that since most good quality difficult mmos, also happen to have a trinity system, that it is neccessary for that type of experience.

Roman God of War.6953:

There is no active skill in a trinity, it is just someone thats good with spreadsheets designing the OP set up for a full party, running said build in a dungeon, standing still, clicking buttons in a sequence..

and this is when you completely lost all credibility.

builds in GW2 are still ran through spreadsheets and active script sequences to determine theoretical effectiveness

and guess what? you can still stand relatively still in FotM50 , destroying bosses with arguably less movement than WoW, a trinity based game, challenge difficulty dungeons can require a lot of movement

Warframe is a third person shooter which is arguably as fast as unreal tournament and guess what? you can build trinity as a dedicated healer, what do you think frost, rhino, and valkyr are suppose to be?

The roles of tanks and healers have seen light in high action packed games without taking away from the packed action.

In unreal tournament 2004, the paladin generated a force field at the front that can protect backline in vehicle scenarios, guess what? its a tank, literally. Players keeping it alive with link guns? Healing.

have a nice day.

The trinity is another tool for elitists to kick people who aren’t carrying them. “Oh you not maxed out on heals? Bye.”

As much as I dislike the trinity, and I do, I can understand why certain people like it. The tone of the OP is argumentative and probably isn’t doing anyone any good.

I have no problem with people liking the trinity. I do have a problem with them trying to bring it to one of the few games that doesn’t have it.

The traditional trinity is not bad per se, and it does take skill. It has its ups and downs just like GW2’s system. Sometimes I prefer it because it’s more orderly than the typical zerg anarchy you see in this game. And the zerk meta is just plain boring.

The game itself also supports trinity, or at least variants of it, it’s just that the trinity is not necessary to do content. I’ve seen parties do variants of trinity and make them work. The game just wasn’t built around it. It was built around letting players play how they want to.

The devs want players to experiment with builds and styles to find one that works for them, rather than being shoehorned into a complete role and build because that’s the only way to do it.

People always talk about Berserker as the only spec to play, and I can see its merits. I also don’t play a dedicated zerker build because it doesn’t mesh with my preferred style.

Guild Wars 2 is not Monster Hunter. It’s nowhere near that level of gameplay. That’s why the current style requires some sort of trinity – be it support, control or damage. Right now it’s everyone stack here and dps it down, skip half the dungeon because it’s tedious, stack some more here, last boss – done. It’s not fun. If it were implemented like Monster Hunter it would be a little different, but currently it’s not. What mechanics do younspeak of? Because I’ve noticed almost next to nothing when it comes to dungeons. Also, MH is a stat based game because if you don’t have the proper gear on you’ll get creamed or run out of time. Since GW2 apparently advertised it doesn’t do stats either…well. It needs to have something. If it’s missing stats and trinity it means the gameplay needs to be simplified enough that someone can get by without those. Which is why the current level of gameplay when it comes to dungeons is terrible. (aka zerker build and stacking)

Suziana.3759:

Also, MH is a stat based game because if you don’t have the proper gear on you’ll get creamed or run out of time

wat.

MH is absolutely NOT a stat based game. try going into even high rank thinking that armor or even DPS is king and you will be flattened faster than you can say “did anyone get the lisence number of that giant pickle?”

it’s ALL about reading the monster’s tells and knowing when it’s safe to attack, and when to run like a cowardly felyne

and to prove my point, here’s three people killing a monster in their undies:

MH is one of the few games that I’d say are COMPLETELY skill based, with little to no stat-based gameplay at all.

the ONE place where stats matter is your weapon, and even then it doesn’t matter past your sharpness and raw damage.

no

(15 characters)

Getting rid of the holy trinity is one of the best things this game has done. The current system is not perfect but that’s more about how the content is designed towards classes/combat system. People don’t stack in dungeon because they have to. It’s because the dungeons are designed to be optimally finished by stacking. Change the dungeons not the combat system. Same with other PVE zeg contents.

WE DON’T NEED HOLY TRINITY.

Aside from the issue of whether specific classes would fill specific roles, there is also the issue of tanking. Even if your character were super tough, there is no way to hold aggro reliably in this game. Also, it makes no sense to have an active combat system with dodging, and then allow a tank to sit there and get hit while everyone else stands around.

It’s clear the OP never got anywhere in a trinity game.

There’s plenty of skill on both an individual and team level in games that utilize the trinity and those that don’t. The main advantage trinity games have is they aren’t as limited to content and class design. You don’t need to ensure every class can do everything. You don’t need to design encounters that are overly scripted.

The reason PvE is a failure in GW2 isn’t because it doesn’t have the trinity, it’s because it has poor developers.

Naevius.3185:

Aside from the issue of whether specific classes would fill specific roles, there is also the issue of tanking. Even if your character were super tough, there is no way to hold aggro reliably in this game. Also, it makes no sense to have an active combat system with dodging, and then allow a tank to sit there and get hit while everyone else stands around.

technically there is some sense.

in MH you can select your armor in such a way that you gain or lose points in a skill called Sneak.

+10 sneak makes you 20% less likely to be targeted

-10 sneak makes you you 20% MORE likely to be targeted.

if everyone has +10 sneak, except from the tank who has -10 sneak, there is a 40% higher chance of the tank being targeted.

does it make things easier for the group (especially gunners)? yes.

does the monster just sit there and the “tank” takes the hits? hell no.

there is still a 60% chance the monster is NOT aiming at the tank. the tank is just as fragile as any other player. and the monster’s attacks will still hit anyone stupid enough to be in the way of 3 tons of angry lizard.

the devs could do something similar, a rune set that makes the enemies more likely to target you, but you CANNOT hold aggro, who to attack is up to the mob, not a threat table, so the other players WILL have to be aware that they can stillbe attacked.

Get over ZERGING, it’s bad!

Trinity looks not that bad after this mindless zerg meta,adding some other role like hyper tank/healer or have dps/heal.

Having all stuff so easy that everyone can do it in pure dps gear/build get boring fast.

Atherakhia.4086:

It’s clear the OP never got anywhere in a trinity game.

There’s plenty of skill on both an individual and team level in games that utilize the trinity and those that don’t. The main advantage trinity games have is they aren’t as limited to content and class design. You don’t need to ensure every class can do everything. You don’t need to design encounters that are overly scripted.

The reason PvE is a failure in GW2 isn’t because it doesn’t have the trinity, it’s because it has poor developers.

The reason why PvE is a failure in Guild Wars 2 is because it’s not. Consider that from polls we know that probably 70% of the people in this game are mainly PvE’ers. That means that if PvE has failed, everything in the game has failed, which clearly hasn’t happened.

YOU don’t like the PvE, which means that you don’t like it and nothing more. The fact is, plenty of people love the PvE in this game. I’m pretty sure if it were a failure, I wouldn’t keep running into crowds.

Stop using HOW a dungeon is designed and how the combat system works as validation for the need of trinity. That is a flaw in dungeon design, please try to focus on how the combat mechanics work. If you guys have ever tried to do a dungeon without zerk gear? Stacking is an exploit(i am aware its not an illegal one), the mechanics needed to legitimately beat a dungeon is fun and engaging.

The only trinity game I played was gw1, I was ok at it, but even back then I tried to solo content. The only time we were face rolling stuff was when i was put where I belonged(fire ele) in the back lines with the monk clicking and pushing the skill button for fire storm. I remember yea I do so much damage(but if those warriors weren’t here I be creamed so this seems weird).

I don’t wanna talk about monster hunter too much, but one poster mentioned its a stat based game. No its not, there stats to fine tune the game, but as another poster mentioned just having the appropriate damage weapon, everything comes down to mechanics. In fact most speed runners run kitten armor with that felyn heroic skill and keep their health so low if they sneezed they die. They know all the monster moves and just dodge everything and bring down g rank foes in under2-5 minutes. There going full zerk essentially BUT you still need to have your A-game to make sure you dont die, something I wish arena net did bring into gw2. I think they should reward players for knowing the in’s and outs of a boss so well that they cna run full zerk and do well. I just think the AI needs to be a hell of alot smarter to stop allowing stacks.

Also one of my main points is that alot of people got this game BECAUSE it has no trinity. It would be so kittenty if one day anet was just like jk heres trinity eff all of you that thought you would never see this….I don’t understand why so many people want trinity when there still are trinity games out there they can go play.

the problem is not trinity or lack thereof, “the problem” is everyone must be able to do everything so dungeons lack any real challenging mechanic and you just zerk rush everything. And i say “problem” because one way or the other this philosophy turned out to be very popular.

Anyway there are things that are more challenging and bring diversification, TA aetherpath is a good example of that, the champion husks during the 3headedwurm are another good example.

Here’s hoping with the rework of defiance and the introduction of raid content some of the trinity entusiasts will start to appreciate the pve side of gw2.

I agree that a trinity may not be appropriate. However, maybe some sort of DPS role and support/control/buff etcetc role to some extent would be more effective than a full DPS team. It doesnt have to be so clean cut but some melding of these two styles. As of right now with current skills for each class it doesnt seem like this kind of thing is possible though.

I always thought that “No Trinity” in GW2 just meant that any class can do anything. Not that they should all be glass dps and never care about performing in the role of support or frontline facetank.

Both types of game play can be fun. Being against one way or another kind of limits the enjoyment you can have.

Not sure why these arguments keep coming up. Hopefully it’ll get a lock quickly and we can move onto what this subforum is supposed to be about.

As Triple Trouble is fun for me because i like some kind of challenge, this event if good example of cooperation its not casual frendly and usually its getting failed due to leechers that don’t know how to behave during it.
Similar thing will happen with this whole ‘trinity’ stuff – getting more and more casual players now days will start to become a pain in the butt to both casual players and those more hardcore ones.

Hardcore players will have troubles getting newbies into their group whitch will lead to hate-storms and casual players will start to experience troubles of finding groups for dungeons (like we have now with Arah) and raids.

It’s enough of this in other MMOs, at least here we have the ability to drag inexperienced players through dungeons due to one-man-army characters – changing it will lead to terrible things.

Also if you insist on trinity i propose to get chests in dungeons and raids locked and trapped (and every single chest from every worldboss) so that thiefs will also play roles of trapmonkeys and keymasters. Just like in D&D – then you’ll understand…

Its because the Trinity is needed in PvP in order for balance to be viable. Otherwise you have 5 people doing 20k burst damage and its a race to who gets 1 shot first.

Healers are there to reduce that effect and make more comps viable.

Corner stacking is better than all pve in every single trinity pve content….

Roman God of War.6953:

Recently just saw a trinity thread, and maaaaan the amount of fanboys is ridiculous.

One don’t belong to a forum or game that DOESNT AND ADVERTISES IT WONT have trinity. you bought it deal with it.

Second, mainly to the people that think the zerk meta is due to the fact gw2 focuses on an emphasis on rolling and learning tells. “OH ofc the game will be easy all you have to do is roll blah blah blah”

Drop some knowledge on ya guys who THINK that a game has to be difficult to require different stat specs.

Please look up monster hunter. It is one of japan’s TOP video games. It is made by capcom. been around longer? then gw1. It has NO stats, but armor skills. and guess what you just hit kitten n it dies.

How is this gameplay difficult? Well first of all, the monsters can and will combo you if your scrub. This makes learning adn studying your opponent a huge part of the gameplay. Until you master all of its tells you will get creamedddd. I have never ever been ever to play monster hunter without sitting upright and being at full attention.

Why I LOVEEEE guild wars 2. it brougth ALOT of the fun and rewarding mechanics of that game into a very massive mulitplayer environment.

There is no active skill in a trinity, it is just someone thats good with spreadsheets designing the OP set up for a full party, running said build in a dungeon, standing still, clicking buttons in a sequence.

if i wanted to practice hitting keys, i be in a band playing keyboard.

I GET its fun to play with builds and get some sweet synergy between them. but its WAY more fun getting small synergy in a build itself, but massive synergy with your own playstyle and say a team mates? i love the pvp in this game. its fantastic and feels so evenly matched and SO many different builds and player set ups its amazing. i cant even imagine how boringgg trinity would be in pvp.

leave trinity to RTS games and enjoy being IN the game in gw2.

So Tera is not an Action combat MMO with trinity mechanics?

Knighthonor.4061:

Corner stacking is better than all pve in every single trinity pve content….

Disagreed. At least get to move around to do stuff while using rotations with multiple key presses, as opposed to looking at my team’s zoomed in butts while spamming 1 key.

But that isn’t lack of trinity’s fault, they just made the dungeons and AI poorly. Non trinity can work if they fix the AI and instance maps. Hopefully raids aren’t in line with the GW2’s current PVE which is by far the easiest and most mind numbing in the market, even compared to small budget games. Compared to AAA current gen MMOs, it’s even worse of a joke.

Substatic.6958:

Knighthonor.4061:

Corner stacking is better than all pve in every single trinity pve content….

Disagreed. At least get to move around to do stuff while using rotations with multiple key presses, as opposed to looking at my team’s zoomed in butts while spamming 1 key.

But that isn’t lack of trinity’s fault, they just made the dungeons and AI poorly. Non trinity can work if they fix the AI and instance maps. Hopefully raids aren’t in line with the GW2’s current PVE which is by far the easiest and most mind numbing in the market, even compared to small budget games. Compared to AAA current gen MMOs, it’s even worse of a joke.

Spamming 1…

Let Tommy comment on this -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhXz60f0HLU

Seriously if you are just spamming 1 in dungeons then you are simply stupid and you get people killed because of you. Most of DPS output is about swift weapon rotation for maximum damage + using skills to disable conditions and buffing teammates (firefields+ blasts, banners etc.) not to mention blocking projectiles.

I can already tell that you are the leecher-type that has to be dragged through dungeons and fractals…

Spamming 1 is legit on worldbosses not in dungeons.(fractals are dungeons too…)

And wanna know why GW2 PvE is easy ?
Because you dont have a bunch of headless morons running all over the map while they require healing and other stuff… AI in other MMOs is evenly or even more moronic – i know i played WoW, DDO and few as a experiment (aion and rest of them were too emo or simply masterpiece of dung)

Oh i can see the handicaps happening with trinity in GW2….

It’s not that having ‘trinity’ is bad. Players having roles in a group is a good thing that encourages teamwork.

What’s bad about trinity systems is they tend to make certain classes required for certain content. GW2’s goal is that we have some form of trinity, but without boring kitten “main tank and healer whack-a-bar” mechanics, and that every class is supposed to have valuable support, dps, and control roles.

What’s wrong with the system currently is that not every class actually has access to good builds for all roles, and because of this reason anet has been forced down a road of making all content completable by all DPS parties, as DPS roles are the only roles that every class actually has working builds for (now that condition stacking is fixed)

There’s nothing bad about having roles at all. What’s bad is not being able to do a thing because the one guy in your group that has actually levelled a “tank” or “healer” is offline, even though you have three other max level dudes ready to go.

In a perfect GW2, we’d do some rapid build shuffling in the group and fill that support slot with one of the existing members, or one of the guys on deck. You could do this easily in GW1. Your monk not online? That’s cool, just have a necro, rit, ranger, or whatever to swap out, have people build around his style of support, and go do the content!

This is better for overall longevity of single characters, as having access to multiple build types means having a reason to acquire alternate gear without actually invalidating your old gear or turning the game in to a gear grind. You’re ready to go with one set of gear, but having multiple build sets ready means you’re more flexible and can fill more roles. This is far better than being forced to roll more characters. Again, this was the system in place in GW1 and it worked really well. people were constantly inventing new builds to try, and often that meant putting together another set of gear.

It’s better for the game overall, as combat can be designed to be less braindead spamming the same rotation which you could macroand be just as effective (if it wouldn’t get you banned) and dodging the occasional red circle. That’s the primary problem with GW2 right now. The PvE is stupidly easy, and as a result all of the rewards suck because they don’t want to hand out good loot for easy content.

The concept of a trinity, or roles in general isn’t a bad thing. The specific implementation of the boring “main tank holds all aggro while DPS falls asleep running a rotation and the healer looks at bars, and by the way you’re screwed if you tank or healer can’t log in” is the bad thing. Don’t get those concepts confused.