Guild Wars 2

You really hit the nail on the head, they gotta fix it quick before they start losing players to the grind in droves. I also am not a fan of the “no mounts” mindset, but I really think that right now they need to focus on getting rid of this nonsensical grindfest that they had created.

A good turnaround would really help them out in the response they get from the many loyal players that feel betrayed right now. I may be about to throw in the towel until its fixed out of frustration with trying to grind without enjoying much of the new content at all and go play Halo 5 when it comes out in 2 days.

/Sniffle.

Every dev at Anet should be forced to sit down and watch that, then honestly say if they think the game meets those aspirations, if it even gets close…

They had to put up giant walls to disguise just how paper thin this expansion really is. If it wasn’t for the brain numbing mastery grind people would be done with Maguuma in a day or two.

Grind isn’t necessarily bad. I can totally zen out for hours on a mindless grind.

The thing is, there are so many other MMOs out there that provide better mindless grinds. GW2 works best when it lets you play your own way.

Go play other mmo’s then come back and say this game has “grind” lol. You have no idea what grind really is.

Heck you can even play alts and get mastery points b/c its account bound. Real grind would be doing it all over again on all of them rofl.

Chrono.6928:

Go play other mmo’s then come back and say this game has “grind” lol. You have no idea what grind really is.

Heck you can even play alts and get mastery points b/c its account bound. Real grind would be doing it all over again on all of them rofl.

I had played a korean MMO that was literally all kill mobs to level, then kill more, and you know what, this grind feels exactly like that if not worse.

It is real grind, we have to get the specs over and over again, in repetitive content.

Chrono.6928:

Go play other mmo’s then come back and say this game has “grind” lol. You have no idea what grind really is.

I do endgame raids in TERA. It’s a totally mindless geargrind, but the engaging combat puts you in a state of battle-zen for hours on end.

GW2 wasn’t designed for grind, and it certainly wasn’t marketed as such. GW2 works best when it lets you play your way. Impose grind in GW2, and it doesn’t induce the zen of soothing repetition. It only induces frustration at being unable to play your way.

I have played quite a few games Chrono. (Did you read my comments).

And yes there is grinding in HOT. Doing content over and over again is grinding. Doing the same events over and over again to get XP. Killing random mob number 600 is grinding.

Now there are other far worse games out there, but that is not what I was raising. Does anyone seriously believe that the majority of the player base is enjoying this?

The main point is – Is this Fun?

I find this un-fun, others may find it the best thing in their life. Which is fine, but vanilla GW2 allowed for both styles by providing multiple ways to enjoy the game. This only has a grind option, which in my view is a turkey.

Now if I am wrong so be it, but a lot of players are saying the same thing. That is concern for all. Simply because, if those people don’t spend cash on gems, friend presents, later expansions, then ANet is going to go backwards. And all knows what happens to companies that go backwards.

Chrono.6928:

Go play other mmo’s then come back and say this game has “grind” lol. You have no idea what grind really is.

Heck you can even play alts and get mastery points b/c its account bound. Real grind would be doing it all over again on all of them rofl.

getting abyss gear in aion was faster than the current implementation of masteries. not that i care about masteries at all. just saying.

If you don’t like it, don’t play. It’s a kittening game after all. Maybe they’ll change it, but honestly I doubt it, and I think they’re totally justified if they don’t. It’s not the first time people have whined incessantly about something and ultimately got over it or quit. Game just hit 7 million players… they aren’t going to miss a few hundred who can’t be bothered to have a little patience.

playing isn’t about bothering. tell them that

hurrado.2346:

Chrono.6928:

Go play other mmo’s then come back and say this game has “grind” lol. You have no idea what grind really is.

Heck you can even play alts and get mastery points b/c its account bound. Real grind would be doing it all over again on all of them rofl.

I had played a korean MMO that was literally all kill mobs to level, then kill more, and you know what, this grind feels exactly like that if not worse.

It is real grind, we have to get the specs over and over again, in repetitive content.

Which one, pray tell, is a more enjoyable experience just straight up killing mobs than doing practically anything that creates experience in the Magumma Jungle?

I want to know, let me know what was ‘less grindy’.

Sykper.6583:

hurrado.2346:

Chrono.6928:

Go play other mmo’s then come back and say this game has “grind” lol. You have no idea what grind really is.

Heck you can even play alts and get mastery points b/c its account bound. Real grind would be doing it all over again on all of them rofl.

I had played a korean MMO that was literally all kill mobs to level, then kill more, and you know what, this grind feels exactly like that if not worse.

It is real grind, we have to get the specs over and over again, in repetitive content.

Which one, pray tell, is a more enjoyable experience just straight up killing mobs than doing practically anything that creates experience in the Magumma Jungle?

I want to know, let me know what was ‘less grindy’.

Actually the Korean MMO, because I would get reasonably things that I wanted in a decent amount of time, and I played that content with my friends, at a decently casual pace.

HoT I just want to get out of the zone as soon as possible to play my spec in the game content I like playing, making it a much more painful grind.

Edit: also when new classes came out they were immediately accessible… so that kind of kept it fresh to me.

Andred.1087:

If you don’t like it, don’t play. It’s a kittening game after all. Maybe they’ll change it, but honestly I doubt it, and I think they’re totally justified if they don’t. It’s not the first time people have whined incessantly about something and ultimately got over it or quit. Game just hit 7 million players… they aren’t going to miss a few hundred who can’t be bothered to have a little patience.

What if it’s more than 100. What if its thousands. What if word spreads around the news sites that after a very smooth and professional launch, players dropped off like flies?

That is not a scenario I want to see play out. Far from it.

I would like Anet to look at what makes games fun, and implement. For a RANGE of tastes, not just the one group covered by this expansion (well two actually sPVP’s get it all at once).

Andred.1087:

If you don’t like it, don’t play. It’s a kittening game after all. Maybe they’ll change it, but honestly I doubt it, and I think they’re totally justified if they don’t. It’s not the first time people have whined incessantly about something and ultimately got over it or quit. Game just hit 7 million players… they aren’t going to miss a few hundred who can’t be bothered to have a little patience.

Metacrit average of 4 says it more then a “few hundred”.

Think about it, the only purchasable content the game has can’t break a 5, they’l ldo something because the majority wants it.

hurrado.2346:

Sykper.6583:

hurrado.2346:

Chrono.6928:

Go play other mmo’s then come back and say this game has “grind” lol. You have no idea what grind really is.

Heck you can even play alts and get mastery points b/c its account bound. Real grind would be doing it all over again on all of them rofl.

I had played a korean MMO that was literally all kill mobs to level, then kill more, and you know what, this grind feels exactly like that if not worse.

It is real grind, we have to get the specs over and over again, in repetitive content.

Which one, pray tell, is a more enjoyable experience just straight up killing mobs than doing practically anything that creates experience in the Magumma Jungle?

I want to know, let me know what was ‘less grindy’.

Actually the Korean MMO, because I would get reasonably things that I wanted in a decent amount of time, and I played that content with my friends, at a decently casual pace.

HoT I just want to get out of the zone as soon as possible to play my spec in the game content I like playing, making it a much more painful grind.

Edit: also when new classes came out they were immediately accessible… so that kind of kept it fresh to me.

Sorry I meant to ask which Korean MMO were you referring to. Name please. Blargh, silly word phrasing.

Drivrius.6159:

Metacrit average of 4 says it more then a “few hundred”.

Think about it, the only purchasable content the game has can’t break a 5, they’l ldo something because the majority wants it.

You sure? The metacritic average of 4 is made up of 29 people.
So 29 people say more than a few hundred?

Oh, it just changed. It’s now an average of 4.5 made out of 30 votes

Pay attention to the OP and you’ll learn how to properly be a consumer. Read his post again.

Cameirus.8407:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he3jqbDq5hA

/Sniffle.

Every dev at Anet should be forced to sit down and watch that, then honestly say if they think the game meets those aspirations, if it even gets close…

Just watched the gw2 manifesto and you’re right. They have strayed from that path. Of particular interest to this topic is 1:20-1:40 where he very clearly and passionately describes their grind philosophy.

Straylight.7529:

Drivrius.6159:

Metacrit average of 4 says it more then a “few hundred”.

Think about it, the only purchasable content the game has can’t break a 5, they’l ldo something because the majority wants it.

You sure? The metacritic average of 4 is made up of 29 people.
So 29 people say more than a few hundred?

Oh, it just changed. It’s now an average of 4.5 made out of 30 votes

Yes, I’m sure if you knew anything about costumer service you would know that “for every one costumer that complains 26 remain silent” and that it takes several more positive review to make up for a bad one, or that word of mouth regarding negative reviews have fsr more weigh then positive reviews.

Basically mostly negative review in something like Metacritcs is far more telling then the number of people who voted.

There are good grinds and bad ones, the good ones are fun the bad ones are tedious and frustrating.

We need to go back to the beginning…. Please bring back skill points and profession book trainers…… New Player Experience was bad enough… but this elite specialization 400 hero point bullkitten requirement is even worse.

Thangore.2935:

I have much better things to do with my time.

Thangore.2935:

TLDR:

You have to pick one of these things to say.

Also, your solutions really don’t address the problem. Trinity does nothing to do with grind. In fact, it would probably exacerbate it the grind by making you wait for critical roles to start doing content.

Mounts historically involve grind.

Sola.7250:

There are good grinds and bad ones, the good ones are fun the bad ones are tedious and frustrating.

Seem’s to be a problem with the community that they don’t understand the difference. Good grinds are where you get on and battle bosses and are rewarded with gear, bad grinds are when you have to complete quest after quest putting puzzle pieces together to craft good stuff. 14 year olds on summer break from school might be able to do this without an issue, but for the now older gamer crowd, sitting around grinding for crafting mats for a year to build weapons and armor isnt going to cut it with a day job and a family. Glad I didnt buy the expansion because it sounds like its just more of the same, grind for crafting mats, cool stuff in the gem store, and poor story telling and game play dynamics. Everyone wonders why blizzard is so successful with their MMO’s, its because they are able to keep people coming back. The gear leveling process works, its a known fact. GW2 with its same stats for everyone dynamic is communism for MMO’s.

Guys you literally CANNOT grind for Hero Points; they are unique, in different locations and cannot be repeated. Elite Specs cannot be achieved with grind (why do people keep saying they are grinding for Hero Points?).

The r4 Mastery requirement to progress with the Story has also been removed (this was the only thing that may have made you want to grind – its gone).

What game are you guys playing? Are you just not exploring or trying new things? If there is any grind being done it is self imposed and not necessary.

I have my Elite Spec fully unlocked and lots of Masteries and its day 2, I did this by exploring and Story – with ZERO repetition. There is no grind, if you’re grinding you’re doing it wrong…

i just got my chronomancer spec done and the only reason for that is, because i already did the map completion grind once. now on my necro it will be way worse.
im ok with doing it a bit but the area is very hard and i am not a pve player. after yesterdays grind, im done with chronomancer and i will try to get my hp through wvw (eb map, as the new one is too laggy and horrible).

now im sure some pve players will love this hard content, but there should be an option for those players that dont like grinding.

guild wars 2 was advertised for years as play how u want, it would be nice if i could play wvw with my specialisations without the grind.

To be fair though, I will agree that ANET did try and fail to emulate Metroidvanias.

Metroidvanias don’t necessarily involve XP, and when they do, celebrated ones don’t tie their advancement abilities(double-jumps, slides, etc) to it.

I don’t think HoT is that grindy but the gates that gate other gates that gate what you really want are a real kittening deterrent. I was hoping to be able to play and discover HoT with one of the elites I was so looking forward to playing but as it is now I will have played the entire xpac before I get to fully enjoy the reason I bought it in the first place. Real kittening bad design there.

Given that I only have 1 character with map completion I might eventually get to play 1 elite spec but the mere though of having to go hunt down every single hero challenge for every alt makes me gag. I guess I could mindlessly follow a pin on EOTM but for some reason that though doesn’t seem much more appealing.

logan.5846:

They had to put up giant walls to disguise just how paper thin this expansion really is. If it wasn’t for the brain numbing mastery grind people would be done with Maguuma in a day or two.

I think this is probably it to make sure the xpac appeared to be of a decent length they had to work out ways of extending how long it took.

Andred.1087:

If you don’t like it, don’t play. It’s a kittening game after all. Maybe they’ll change it, but honestly I doubt it, and I think they’re totally justified if they don’t. It’s not the first time people have whined incessantly about something and ultimately got over it or quit. Game just hit 7 million players…

Er 7m accounts over the total life of the game. If you don’t realize the game has far less active players than it did at launch then you aren’t looking hard enough.

Ticky.5831:

Thangore.2935:

I have much better things to do with my time.

Thangore.2935:

TLDR:

You have to pick one of these things to say.

Also, your solutions really don’t address the problem. Trinity does nothing to do with grind. In fact, it would probably exacerbate it the grind by making you wait for critical roles to start doing content.

Mounts historically involve grind.

Mounts in wow turned into flying mounts at which point everyone just stayed in the air and only came down directly on top of enemies or to kill someone.

So wait a minute, theres people that have finished the xpac already? Does the xpac even take you to the mordremoth kill?

leftyboy.9358:

Ticky.5831:

Thangore.2935:

I have much better things to do with my time.

Thangore.2935:

TLDR:

You have to pick one of these things to say.

Also, your solutions really don’t address the problem. Trinity does nothing to do with grind. In fact, it would probably exacerbate it the grind by making you wait for critical roles to start doing content.

Mounts historically involve grind.

Mounts in wow turned into flying mounts at which point everyone just stayed in the air and only came down directly on top of enemies or to kill someone.

Yes this is true.

Thangore.2935:

Could this be a case study on what not to do? For half this house it certainly is, the other half is not even playing anymore.

Now as a bit of background, I am time poor. Like most professionals in this world, I spend ludicrous time in the office, as well as stuck in traffic to and from the office. What should be an 8 hour work day often ends up 10 or so hours. Being a parent as well, well the kids are far more important than some computer pixels swirling about on screen. Then there is time for the other half. All in all, very time poor. That’s not to say I don’t have time to waste. Just that is very very precious. So what I do waste it on has to be the best entertainment option I can get.

Right now, Guild Wars 2 is approaching rock bottom.

(…….)
And that mastery to jump on mushrooms, maybe there is a hidden message there…

Every time I see something like this, I pat myself on the back for paying the $600 to have my wife’s tubes tied (and after a year of fighting doctors trying to convince her she REALLY wanted kids) right after we got married.

Other than that, you are spot on, bro.

morrolan.9608:

Er 7m accounts over the total life of the game. If you don’t realize the game has far less active players than it did at launch then you aren’t looking hard enough.

Yeah, I’ve seen that. I was in one guild that had over two hundred members. I looked through the roster a couple weeks ago and there was roughly 8 of us that had logged-in in the last 6 months, and a lot of the dead accounts hadn’t logged-in in well over a year. It was very disheartening and a little scary to look through that roster of names and see so many dead accounts.

Didn’t they say recently there is 7 MILLION Accounts?!
Even if half of those are inactive/don’t have HoT that still leaves more than 3 Million players fine with the content
I can see only handfull of people that keeps complaining.

This must mean.
Omg should I say it?
I think I should, shouldn’t I?
I am gonna do it!

‘THE GRIND’ IS FINE TO A OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE.

Nephziel.6053:

Didn’t they say recently there is 7 MILLION Accounts?!
Even if half of those are inactive/don’t have HoT that still leaves more than 3 Million players fine with the content

Read the messages above yours. I doubt the game has 1m active players.

leftyboy.9358:

Just watched the gw2 manifesto and you’re right. They have strayed from that path. Of particular interest to this topic is 1:20-1:40 where he very clearly and passionately describes their grind philosophy.

I think it’s important to note that there’s a very precise moment in the xpac where they diverge from that manifesto. (And keep in mind, I say the following as someone who is enjoying masteries and whose main complaint is the elite spec setup, so some of it will be theory more than anything.)

Here’s the situation: They added horizontal progression in two big respects – masteries and elite specializations. This is horizontal progression by definition, as it doesn’t give you gear upgrades and it doesn’t really make you any more powerful; it just gives you some fun abilities that you didn’t have before and a new way to play your class.

Now here’s where they diverge: The HoT zones have numerous areas that are only accessible (or all but impossible to access) without certain masteries. Because navigating the HoT maps is a distinctive part of the HoT experience, it starts to look almost like vertical progression. It’s a very very fine distinction. Vertical progression is usually referred to as things like gear upgrades and the HoT zones don’t offer that.

But… HoT content is largely: 1) Masteries, 2) Elite Specs, 3) Story, and 4) New maps. Both parts of maps and parts of points for elite specs are locked behind masteries. This means one part of progression is locked behind another part of progression (masteries and elite specs). But further than that, there is what I will term “pleasure progression” that is gated behind horizontal progression. Pleasure progression I’m using to refer to content such as map completion and map exploration, that usually has no gating and gives no (or minimal) rewards. The gain is the pleasure of doing it.

And pleasure progression being gated by horizontal progression is problematic because it gives the sense that you need to do your chores before you can play video games, almost like the game is a job.

How a different system would have avoided breaking the manifesto: I doubt any major changes to the mastery system are going to happen now, but for pure academic pleasure… had masteries all been fluff (e.g. abilities that enhance the experience of their environment, but are not required or even recommended for it) then the application of terms like “grind” would be completely unjustified. Instead, the term is slightly justified because there are numerous masteries are absolutely vital for certain map content and even when they are not vital, they are often the sort of thing that you’d expect to be there to begin with.

Once again, I’m not criticizing what the masteries are myself. I’m happy so far with what they are and what they provide. But from a theoretical standpoint, many of them would rank as baseline navigational abilities for such complex zone design. In the context of the classic zones, they would truly feel like a bonus, sent down from the gods above, but many of the lower ones do indeed feel like the sort of thing that you should have from the start, given how the maps are designed.

And to be fair, the base ones have a relatively low XP cost. But I can see how someone who only has 1-2 hours to play a day might need a few days, or even a week at a slow pace, just to get an introductory mastery. Which could feel like a long time to spend to get baseline navigation in a complex zone.

What an amazing post!!! +9999999 votes for that topic.

Aside from everything listed in the original post – I just don’t like it. And for the first time, I kind of regret buying a Guild Wars product (I bought the Deluxe and my husband bought the Ultimate). Since you nailed everything pretty much I have a few things to add. 1. I hate jumping puzzles. I suck at them and hate them. (Hence why I only have map completion on one char). 2. I don’t have ADD – therefore there is just too much going on in HoT for me. 3. At the rate I can play – it will be close to a year before I can get specializations done on just one char. And frankly, I’d like them on all 3 that I have. I know a majority of players don’t mind the grind – it’s the new age of gaming. Honestly, I don’t mind it either. But make it reasonable. I love exploring and roaming – but not in HoT. I accomplished map completion solo on my ranger. I was hoping for the same type if thing in HoT. (I spent 4 hours trying to reach a part of the story – running in circles, fending off mobs, before just giving up and logging off. I have not returned to the HoT map). I do enjoy the new WvW content. Guild Halls are amazing! Looking forward to taming the new pets for my ranger. But for now, I’ll do whatever I can in the original map to just enjoy playing and hanging out with friends when time allows. Otherwise, my gliders will collect dust. Thanks for your efforts, and I do hope the rest of you enjoy the game and obtain the achievements. But some of us just won’t. It’s too time consuming to accomplish anything (when you get excited after finally finding a new WP….it’s bad) which leads to frustration and that is not why I game.

I’m wondering if some of the people in this thread are unaware that masteries unlock account-wide. So though it seems like the Elite Specs will take forever based the experience of your first character, you won’t have to unlock the masteries on subsequent characters.

So it may take significantly shorter than some of you suspect, after the first character.

How I am feeling about this now. If you plan to solo anything forget it. So after a nice long day at work and you are ready to sit down and enjoy GW2 you can return to work inside the HOT.

The game changed into a grind-fest – Grind to get mastery to get more grinding to get more mastery so we can grind some more to get more mastery to grind some more to just do the story line. Then rinse and repeat to get Specializations Grind to get mastery to get more grinding to get more mastery so we can grind some more to get more mastery to grind some more grind to get mastery to get more grinding to get more mastery so we can grind some more to get more mastery to grind some more grind to get mastery to get more grinding to get more mastery so we can grind some more to get more mastery to grind some more grind to get mastery to get more grinding to get more mastery so we can grind some more to get more mastery to grind some more grind to get mastery to get more grinding to get more mastery so we can grind some more to get more mastery to grind some more grind to get mastery to get more grinding to get more mastery so we can grind some more to get more mastery to grind some more.

This is what I am reading all over the internet in the reviews. So it is not just a few people feeling this way.

I totally hate the feel of the game now. And may just boycott the HoT altogether.

i dont get why HOT is the complete opposite of the original game in spirit. It’s like a different game completely now. i’ve logged onto a few of my characters, walked around mindlessly for a bit, stared at the new specializations i cant use, and logged off. Big waste of money and very dissatisfied here.

you people are such spoiled brats for jebus sake. i want everything i wanted now, idc if i suck at this game, all i want is press 1 and kill everything boohoo. expansion its not perfect but its awsome none the less. what u guys are calling grind its actualy called time consuming. you guys have the rest of the game to press 1 over and over again.

Azorean, I guess you have not read any of the posts here. It is a grindiest version of GW to have ever been released.

No way does gw2 need the “holy trinity” one of the big reasons i play this game is because it isnt stuck with tank/dps/healer pidgeonholing. As for metacritic reviews imo people are blowing some minor issues with a good expansion way out of preportion.

The new Holy trinity, You were grinding, so you can grind now, which leads you to grind in the future.

yep
its a reskin of silverwastes, didnt they learn anything from that?
if they had made a REAL expansion, they could have revitalized the game
i dont think they can do anything now, they simply wasted too many resources on niche content

It’s indeed a grind. Getting all these non soloable hero points on 9 specs is going to take forever..