Healing Power
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@ Wexxes, this was before a bit of the AI change but here you go
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMltxyvAvo
Doesn’t count because that person is using an exploit to completely remove the most dangerous part of the boss.
Show me someone sitting through that poison AoE and not caring about anything and still living and then I’ll agree its overpowered.
(edited by WEXXES.2378)
i say healing actully in a good place for some classes the thing that the problem is poison…33% reduction on healing is harsh especialy when every class can have acess to it and can be applied quickly….i can survive 3 on 1 when there no poison involed but when it is i can only last like 30 sec if i time everythng right……im a cleric gaurd…are low hp need the constant heals to stay up
Doesn’t count because that person is using an exploit to completely remove the most dangerous part of the boss.
Show me someone sitting through that poison AoE and not caring about anything and still living and then I’ll agree its overpowered.
Which exploit is that? Her attack had a minimal range, it’s not an exploit to stand in melee range unless using melee weapon is an exploit.
There’s a video of nomad warrior tanking mossman solo and killing him eventually.
There are videos of full clerics guardian tanking mossman while his/her team focus on dps without even being targeted.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Holy-Trinity-is-back-Cleric-Guard-FOTM
Let it be clear, this game favours active support rather than reactive and that was known way before the launch.
I can’t think of a single fight that becomes impossible if you don’t kill the enemy quick.
The endboss from the citadell of flame p1 could outheal you if you lack to much damage(at least he did in the past, nowadays with almost everyone running zerker, that alsmost never happens anmyore)
On p2 you have to kill the assassins in time before they reach magg.
And those are only 2 things where zerker deffinitly goes better than healingpower. Belive me I wish you could prove me wrong here because I want to play my cleric-guardian more, but sadly thats just the way it is.
there are also a countless amount of bosses that are possible with healing power, but waaaay easier with dps over healing, because they only have short timespawns of vulnurability, or use turrets/totems that regenerate to get protection, and those turrets regenerate(examples: Boss from honor of the waves, the evolved destroyer, the ghost eater and so on and so forth, the worm in twilight arbor where the other worms respawn around him and so on and so forth)
Of course there are some bosses where healing power can be usefull, the nightmare tree for example has lots of small AoE that wiggle you down over time(well they would if you couldn’t just stand behind the tree and shoot at it) but they are rare and far in between those were dps is more usefull. But hey, maybe that changes once raids come out!(if they really come out) in a group of 10 people, having a single dedicated healer might actually be viable again, would be happy to see that ^^
“Trust in iron, not false gods” Karnar Ironclaw, Centurio of the Iron Legion
My post was not only directed at you (Manuhell). There are multiple people giving different ideas of what’s wrong with HP that I disagree with and the common idea is that scaling is bad.
Well, actually, they aren’t entirely wrong about that. Scaling is bad…but it is bad on purpose. Cause having a good scaling would either unbalance the encounters or introduce healers. And we aren’t supposed to have healers. Or unbalanced encounters, either.
For you specifically:
So the whole part about a meta engi in zerker gear or even zealots having minimal dps loss while being able to utilize healing well is…. irellevant to your idea that we need more ways to use healing? A zerker necro changing a single trait and suddenly becoming an effective healer in death shroud is “too much of a sacrifice to heal a bit”?
You can’t have a minimal dps loss and use healing well together. Not if you lack the means of using said healing. And as now, many of those depend on traits, runes, sigils, even food.
As i tried to explain above, whereas offensive stats already have many means of application, and defensive are purely passive anyway, healing power has very few native means of application. That’s, imho, the issue. Usually you have to invest a lot to be able to use the stat to start with.
And about the necro…that’s a grandmaster trait that could have been spent better elsewhere, especially if you are using zerker stats. Instead it is used just to provide a mean to use healing power. Albeit, at least it is integrated in the mechanic of the class.
Your argument sounds the same to me as someone saying I have max condition damage/dire gear but I don’t want to use a condition weapon and condition traits so conditions are broken. It’s ludicrous that all weapons should have healing built into them. So of course you need to spec into healing somewhat/choose the right weapons/traits etc. Why should someone NOT have to trait for healing to become better at it?
Trait to become better is fine.
Trait just to use the stat to start with isn’t. That’s the problem.
You make the example with condition…ok, but how many weapons natively use healing power? Apart from the couple you described below, i can’t remember anything else.
Healing isn’t a binary function that suddenly becomes good the second you have all healing stuff turned up to 11. Why else do you think celestial is great on engi or ele in the pvp meta? It’s not that they maxed out healing power. They have a lot of little sources of healing that add up really well. If you don’t believe it’s the encounter design of PvE or healing power scaling that is the problem, then PvP rules apply here as far as good sources of healing being completely viable at mid tiers of healing investment. Same for power/condition dmg with those classes/builds: zerker and rabid are better at each individually but being a hybrid and utilizing both at 60% efficiency is still great.
I don’t think that having healing power is what makes celestial good, rather than all the rest. Being hybrid classes, having an hybrid source of stats (especially the offensive ones) works well with them. Even more with some might added in. It helps that both classes already have some common means of using that – be it healing turret’s water field, ele staff or elixir gun (you do have to spend an utility, but at least it doesn’t involve traits).
Guardian mace 1/2 and staff 2/4 and F2 have built in healing. Ele staff 1/3/5 and ice bow 1 have built in healing or just ele water attunement in general.
Healing turret, well of blood, signet of vamp, healing springs, healing breeze are also all heals that affect your allies but (except healing turret) are all worst at personal healing than other selfish heals. Is that not what you just asked for?
I did say that we would need more weapons with built-in uses for healing power. The ones you mentioned are basically all we’ve got ingame now, that’s the issue. Thus the need of finding other sources to use it, be it traits or whatever.
And the other skills…well, are healing skills. Of course they use healing power. But we only have a single dedicated slot for them.
At this point I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree because I don’t see a moderate investment in group healing as useless and some imaginary switch suddenly makes it viable. I also don’t agree with someone investing in healing should be able to make use of their dps stats as well as a full glass cannon and I disagree with the idea that someone investing in healing power suddenly does crap dps. There are many shades in between.
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Imho, natively lacking the means of using healing power is an issue. There are weapons tailored for various uses – be it power, condition, even both together – but very few tailored to use healing power, or healing power along with offensive stats, and mostly limited to a couple classes.
Imho, that should change, along with giving more different uses for said stat (even if they were to rename it, dunno, support power).
My post was not only directed at you (Manuhell). There are multiple people giving different ideas of what’s wrong with HP that I disagree with and the common idea is that scaling is bad.
Well, actually, they aren’t entirely wrong about that. Scaling is bad…but it is bad on purpose. Cause having a good scaling would either unbalance the encounters or introduce healers. And we aren’t supposed to have healers. Or unbalanced encounters, either.
For you specifically:
So the whole part about a meta engi in zerker gear or even zealots having minimal dps loss while being able to utilize healing well is…. irellevant to your idea that we need more ways to use healing? A zerker necro changing a single trait and suddenly becoming an effective healer in death shroud is “too much of a sacrifice to heal a bit”?You can’t have a minimal dps loss and use healing well together. Not if you lack the means of using said healing. And as now, many of those depend on traits, runes, sigils, even food.
As i tried to explain above, whereas offensive stats already have many means of application, and defensive are purely passive anyway, healing power has very few native means of application. That’s, imho, the issue. Usually you have to invest a lot to be able to use the stat to start with.
And about the necro…that’s a grandmaster trait that could have been spent better elsewhere, especially if you are using zerker stats. Instead it is used just to provide a mean to use healing power. Albeit, at least it is integrated in the mechanic of the class.Your argument sounds the same to me as someone saying I have max condition damage/dire gear but I don’t want to use a condition weapon and condition traits so conditions are broken. It’s ludicrous that all weapons should have healing built into them. So of course you need to spec into healing somewhat/choose the right weapons/traits etc. Why should someone NOT have to trait for healing to become better at it?
Trait to become better is fine.
Trait just to use the stat to start with isn’t. That’s the problem.
You make the example with condition…ok, but how many weapons natively use healing power? Apart from the couple you described below, i can’t remember anything else.
We do have healers we just don’t need them since they bothered making gears,traits,runes for EVERY CLASS etc with healing power they shouldn’t hold back the stat. It’s like saying we broke it on purpose but we still let you try to play with it,that same logic resulted in many useless traits,skills etc. A weapon might not be dedicated to healing but you can spec for it, you can’t have healing only anyway so it’s should be balanced that way not we will make sure it’s a underpowered stat and most specs trying to use it will fail.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
The Dhuumfire thread
The Dhuumfire thread
Well, it’s balanced in WvW and PvP at least. Mostly because those are designed properly. The reason healing and many other things don’t work in 90% of PvE content (the other 10% being The Silverwastes and some world bosses) isn’t because of healing/conditions/etc themselves, but because of the underlying flaws in the design of most PvE content.
As dmg coeficient is almost always equal or higher than 1.0 I think healing scaling with 1.0 would be balanced and fair.
One of the reasons that healing coefficients (in all games) tend to be lower than damage coefficients, is because damage is reduced by armor. There are exceptions of course, like regeneration, guardian staff skills, etc. There are also skills which just simply scale badly with healing power as well.
(edited by Fashion Mage.3712)
Can actualy someone tell me why healing power dont work with Healing signet?
Can actualy someone tell me why healing power dont work with Healing signet?
It should, if you are talking about the passive regen it has an extremely low ratio.
Uhm,i tested with like 500 healing power and i dont noticed any difference :|
I can’t think of a single fight that becomes impossible if you don’t kill the enemy quick.
The endboss from the citadell of flame p1 could outheal you if you lack to much damage(at least he did in the past, nowadays with almost everyone running zerker, that alsmost never happens anmyore)
On p2 you have to kill the assassins in time before they reach magg.
And those are only 2 things where zerker deffinitly goes better than healingpower. Belive me I wish you could prove me wrong here because I want to play my cleric-guardian more, but sadly thats just the way it is.
Find a guild with players that like running zerker but that also don’t mind a good healer in the mix. I’ve done entire dungeon tours with a clerics guard before and it makes things faceroll easy for me on a zerker character. It’s ok if you do low damage if you can keep your dps allies going. Is that not what being a healer is all about?
CoF p2 assassins: I 2 hit KO them on my thief. I’m fairly certain that 5 clerics guards could still kill them all in time. Or just don’t stack 5 healers. Those mobs can be a pain to survive in pug groups and a healer (not some pvt AH scrub “tank”) can be appreciated there.
CoF p1 boss: I actually have a very specific memory of this boss. Way back when I ran with 4 cleric/pvt guard/warriors in my group and I was the only zerker (warrior) I decided to swap to my alt when the boss hit ~10% health so that I could level my alt. By the time I rezoned in, the boss was at 20% health and the party had almost wiped. I relogged on warrior again and basically solod the boss from his now 40% health to zero as the pvt/clerics were ressing each other. It’s not even that they lacked damage but they were too focused on trying to survive that they never hit the boss. It’s also about understanding the mechanics back then. Poison alone would have greatly reduced his healing (I carry hylek poison darts on my alts that don’t have access to poison for this reason) and breaking the crystals reduced the bosses healing stacks (PVT breaks those just as well as zerker). Rather than learn the mechanics, people whined and it got nerfed 2 years ago. People also learned what attacks to dodge and can focus on dps more. 5 clerics guards could definitely kill him now.
Simin is actually the only boss I can think of where it used to be a serious DPS check and even then, it only took 2 decent DPS players to duo her… then she got nerfed. Before the nerf, my guild went into arah p4 with a PVT hammer warrior, PVT sword/shield warrior, GS cleric shoutheal warrior, rabid guard (she though F1 used her condi dmg) and myself on a zerker reflect mesmer (the worst kind of dps for simin) Keep in mind that this was before trait swapping and stuff. We actually hit a wall for her and had to fall back and ooc. I asked 1 warrior to swap to triple dps banners/fgj (discple/strength/warbanner) and we destroyed her. That’s all it took despite having the worst combo of dps in the game.
And again, comparing heal/dps ratio of cleric to zerker is not ideal cause you are also forgetting toughness. Compare dps of zerker/zealots if you want to think about healing vs dps.
As much as people talk about the idea that bursting bosses down is the best strategy (and it definitely is for actual meta guild optimized speed runs) and it can be for some dungeons for sure, I don’t think that’s always the case for most pug groups especially for fotm @50. I’ve pugged enough to know most of the zerker players out there aren’t that great at dodging. Furthermore, even if you go crazy on the active defense/dodging, your dps starts to drop a lot.
This link really needs to be emphasized more. This is a cleric guard that holds aggro at fotm 50 and doesn’t dodge while fighting mossman or archdiviner. If you’ve pugged fotm 40/50s, I’m 99% certain a guard like her would make runs much smoother: not necessarily faster for full meta groups but just easy going and not that much of a loss in dps/time taken because having 4 dps people be able to go through perfect dps rotations without worrying about aggro/dodging is kind of a big deal. As an FYI, fotm 40/50 have pulsing agony as part of the instability and that reduces all healing by 50% and that cleric guard is still making it work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uczgA8AJITA&index=7&list=PLCxfgAjHhmmy0a29VtGeRpCK4ADb4SQTS
Don’t even bother clearing the poison here which also reduces healing by another 33%.
It may not be optimal but I would definitly consider this viable.
Well I guess I will just run an experiment this week, 4 of my guildies with squishy dps builds and me on my max-heal guardian, I belive a practical experiment will get us further in this discussion then just tossing numbers and links out.
“Trust in iron, not false gods” Karnar Ironclaw, Centurio of the Iron Legion
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