HoT: The Love, the Hate.

HoT: The Love, the Hate.

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Eirdyne.9843

Eirdyne.9843

At the release of Heart of Thorns I called this expansion fantastic. In most respects I am still going to say that. On the other hand, there’s just a lot of hate towards it. This post is some attempt to discuss that from what I’ve encountered.

Let’s start with positive things:
- Guild Wars 2 needed some sort of End-Game content.
- Heart of Thorns provided End-Game content.

Just to be perfectly clear, the largest complaint with that is: “It all takes place in Maguum.”

That said, set back for a moment and look at what Guild Wars 2 was before Heart of Thorns in terms of its End-Game.
- Dungeons for gold
- Fractals for Ascended Gear (once you crafted your first set)
- Open-World bosses and maps: Cursed Shore, Champions (until they were nerfed/removed), and Silverwastes

The majority of the game was taking place in Open-World. This was probably the most unique selling point in terms of what Guild Wars 2 had to offer unique from every other MMO.

After Heart of Thorns:
- Dungeons gold reward was removed
- Fractals are pointless
- Raids are the only access to ascended gear after you have crafted your first gear.
- If your guild can’t / won’t raid you need a new guild. If you can’t/won’t find one you need a new game.
- People are rightly kittened off about the fact above. Developers or a company making the decision to directly remove people from the game because they don’t fit a niche piece of content (because the niche piece of content is the only thing in development) deserve all the hate they get because no sane person can’t imagine it would happen or just get worse.
- Crafting Ascended Gear is nearly gone until you devote all of your evenings on at least 8 characters to getting 50+ Empyreal Shards a night as dungeons rewarded 20 per path and world chests give only 2: even Jumping Puzzles. If you don’t have 8+ characters to do this, devote evenings. If you are crazy enough to say, “go do dungeons… go do dungeons and then say it…”

And, the Rest of the Game:
- PvP, as far as I know, does not reward Ascended Armor
- WvW, as does from one achievement chest, maybe two.
- WvW is essentially dead right now. Maps are too large and keeps are pointless as they are just a flip and switch. Also the lead designer for WvW has quit so says the rumor mill.
- Skins are a big deal to most people, but the skin creation has really slowed down of late even from the Gem Store. Those created, like Bladed Armor are very hit and miss, shifting wildly between pretty awesome to ultra cartoony (often in the same set).
Sets are falling off lately in favor of Outfits. I’m not sure what the opinions are on all of this, but there has definitely been a sharp falloff in themetic designs. To give you an idea what I mean Aetherblade was incredibly themetic whereas Striders isn’t exactly anywhere and pushing the ‘serious and cartoony’ confusion generally demonstrating a consistency that Guild Wars 2 does not do cartoony well.
Heart of Thorns launched with relatively no new skins of any kind what so ever. There are a few gated skins, and a few account bound drops that are quite good, but in general the 60+ skins discussed pre-launch appear to be a sum total and not sets as many suspected.
- Most people were into the idea of tagging up with people in meta events or one-off encounters to get something done from Hero Points to picking a Ghost Pepper.
- Dyes are a big deal to people, but in general a single good dye costs half as much or more gold than a precursor.
As far as is known no new dyes came with Heart of Thorns.

On to the Strong Complains.
- No new armor sets that drop from creatures in Open-World or through collections (at least so far known) besides Mistward.
- No new weapons that drop from creatures in Open-World or through collections (at least so far known) besides Mistward.
- The vast emptiness of most maps.
- Gliding not having been capitalized on beyond Verdant Brink.
Each map has progressively less to do with gliding. Especially at later levels.
- Too much use of teleports.
Nuhoch Wallows + Waypoints transformed fairly complex maps into a series of instantaneous transitions.
Reduced the chance of one player running into another.
Created a wide divide between varied player choices: some going for Exalted Crafting long before realizing there was Nuhoch Wallows or what they really help.
- Too much goal-oriented content.
If you aren’t goal oriented in Heart of Thorns you’re not playing it. The design of both the maps and every particularity of content is such that no progress can be made unless you are oriented toward doing that thing and that alone.
- The goal-orientation is individualistic in such a way that no two characters are likely going to meet on task for the same goal. Especially this is the cast in later levels as players diverge by level 41 in masteries toward their own needs from collection to acquisition of Insights.
- We could get things done on our own.
This gets a lot of confusion and bringing it up is a good way to be told, “You are just going to have to learn to play with others.” I’ve made that particular comment myself often enough. However, that is not what I am talking about.
Precursor Crafting is Time-gated, Ascended Armor crafting is Time-gated, and the final tier of Masteries post level 134 are locked beyond some pretty out of reach achievements for most of the player community. Essentially people just call it what it is, “Time gated to keep us playing.”
Unfortunately, that’s very 90s of Anet. We’re living in the 21st century. If your partner, parents, or consciousness keys in on the fact you just spent 30 days to craft 1 armor set for 1 character a divorce, grounding, and/or job search is in the foreseeable future. And anyway, it’s obvious the game is saying “You’ve reached the end of content, please return to the game,” at that point.

What was Anet trying to do?
- This isn’t asked a lot. I’m not sure why, but the assumptions are pretty broad. If for no other reason than to open some sort of dialog about it let’s go into it.

If you look at the wide swath of MMOs available most are pretty much awful. WoW’s dying because there’s really no way in if you haven’t been playing in forever and Blizzard has a bad habit of nerfing classes into disuse for years at a time.Further, there’s no content. The game is just a grind for gear treadmill.
Dark Age of Camelot is still out there and Everquest, or varied shards of all of these. Guild Wars 1 is another to fit into this old genre of game.
They are all dying out. We can recognize them, but most players can’t identify in words what it is that’s dying.
To put it simple: The Grand Narrative.

In old games the real confrontation to which all players were to surmount was the frontier. Dragon Age: Inquisition is the first game in a decade to recreate that. The frontier is the unknown. Even if memorized, its very nature is such that all confrontation with it is only tentative. Unlike games today group dynamics were not competitive, but complimentary. In short, the group was its own biome moving in, amongst, and often at odds with another biome. Your party was vital and you were vital to your party for being a apart of it.

Today the reverse is true. Your build is vital, but your build is a meta calculated down to its optimum summation. You are slaved to its implementation – trapped in a rail cart heading the wrong way – as is demanded by the biome which you are supposedly to confront. Rails cannot be steered. In reality you are absorbed by that biome and forced into some sort of dance, effectively becoming a puppet on strings.

The Grand Narrative has always been a challenge to realize in MMOs because each player is conceived to be the Hero. Only where games have chosen to determine that those events with which the player is involved are grind is this actually successful.
It requires that skill diversity or concentration (that combination specifically), rather than armor stats, also are the meta. Only the complimentary coordination of skills with limitations affords this reality.
Guild Wars 1 achieved this because though our player was not always the one determining the course of events were a vital part of their unfolding. Skills were diverse enough that it was unlikely you were to encounter a person doing exactly the same as you nor that they should need to do so.
This satisfied the heroic role without coming into conflict with the narrative that there were many heroes and heroics across the course of the story. It also satisfied the presentation that you were you and free to design “you”.
WoW 2004-2006, Dark Age of Camelot, and so on did this as well.

Everquest was the rare exception in success, but only because in that world no grand world events took place. Rather, there was grandeur to be sought in its own biome. Thus, the hero of Everquest was ever questing toward this goal of having had encountered the majesty, awe, and mystery of the insurmountable. You could ‘defeat’ something in Everquest only to the point of a stalemate. No extinction of the dragons or giants, even orcs, was remotely conceivable. The world did not alter, only your encounter with this insurmountable.

Anet has achieved in providing most of the original content to which other games at any period in time have achieved in one way or another. Further, most of that is still here in the game right now.
What it truly lacks though, is self-integrity, which in turns suggests it has not realized itself internally. Some of the devs have scoffed openly at RPers despite there being a strong and thriving community of RPers who aren’t RPing sex surprise, surprise. So that’s great. No points won there. WvW players have been on their knees for years for maps that make sense, but always we get gigantic maps and gigantic keeps that no army in real life can populate, much less a game world. This is utterly baffling because Anet specifically designed Guild Wars 2’s WvW after Dark Age of Camelot. Here’s just how easy it was in Dark Age to have a comprehensive WvW map:
http://www.valmerwolf.com/mappe/BG/bg-thidranki.jpg
One keep, three realms fighting over it. It’s a map where a person can actually use tactics rather than persist in some giant blob toward a pointless taking of a keep whose walls and doors are more flimsy than tissue paper.
PvP needs some love as well, with essentially a great possibility for competitive gameplay there too, but no devotion to the creation of unique maps or even many maps at all.

Perhaps the largest struggle for players is a sense of where the game is going. There’s been a consistency of mixed messages and contradictions from Anet about this since before launch.
If you looked at the trailers from Guild Wars 2 you would have thought this game was about dragons invading the world of Tyria we knew from Guild Wars 1. Guild Wars 1 had an awesome story that championed humanity’s diversity with its armors to its cultures. Guild Wars 2? Can’t decided what it is, but is trying to be WoW hard. Hylek are Elonans sometimes and other times Utopians from the unfinished expansion. Anet refused to make a character that’s not white, though we skin shaders. There was going to be something like elves, but we got plants. It worked out, I guess, but only in so much as they come closest to both elves and the Asiatic body type. I’m really not sure where other people (not white) are finding their closest match.

It’s always loomed darkly over Guild Wars 2 just what happened in the making of this game. Did People’s Republic of China threaten NCSoft that “Any Japanese or Dynastic imagery will be regarded in poor taste.”? We don’t know, but people still ask. Once that was gone did the rest of humanity get deleted from Guild Wars 2 as well? The only Korean style architecture in the game is smashed up into the edge of Stonesledge Draft and a jumping puzzle.

So, Guild Wars 2 has always struggled with what it is. It’s not related to Guild Wars 1 much but in name. It’s content isn’t much to do with its lore save on the most immediate face of it.

HoT: The Love, the Hate.

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Eirdyne.9843

Eirdyne.9843

What exactly is Anet about?
I think the answer is Tree of Savior. As the Grand Narrative dies out the idea of telling a story about heroic deeds on a world scale loses distinction in people’s minds. More specifically it lost distinctive relevance to some college nitwit with a business degree.
A business degree is about calculus and finding the profit margin. It has nothing to do with philosophy, intellect, morality, ethos, eros, self-integrity, or any of these other ‘electives’. Thus why we have such a beautiful real life!

So, the MMO industry has begun to pump out SNES like MMOs. Your character is basically a set of minimalistic outcomes arranged on an even more discrete set of occurrences.
The Grand Narrative is like Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. In one go you find out, “There were three goddess, each had distinctly three powers, which were afforded to distinctly three people. You are one of the three. The Goddesses, in making contact with the earth, left behind three artifacts. Attaining all three powers and all three artifacts lets you make a wish about how the world should be. That wish transforms the world into the likeness of your heart.” Simple, clear cut, easy to manage. Same narrative, different guise… Lord of the Rings.
Technology has improved such that we can make MMOs like they were always desired to be in those original few companies that started the industry. Unfortunately, the writers, designers, and builders have been increasingly cattled toward as few design elements as necessary to make a “working product”.
Hate the devs all you want it’s quite clear they’re not making the decisions about this game. Someone else is. Did I mention nitwit with a business degree? Find those and you’ll find the vacuum where all the development falls out the bottom of MMOs. If you think of the universe as a black yawning maw and the Earth as a pearl then you’ve generally got the idea of business.

When Guild Wars 2 set out the idea people had was that just a few of the world’s centers survived. The image most people refer me back to was that ruddy looking town beneath two gates with light signing through, the gates carved out of some single piece of mountainous rock wall.
I can’t find a link to that image. Probably a loadscreen image.

And this is a major problem for MMOs:
http://images.mmorpg.com/images/galleries/full/392012/22a341b9-54af-4094-840e-09f838964342.jpg
Every time we see images like this we imagine we’re going to get close to that. Instead there is not a single forest in all of Guild Wars 2. There are giant trees and giant canopies, but no themetically recognizable forest.
To make matters worse Heart of Thorns, WoW, basically any modern computer demonstrates that the memory and our computers can handle it. Just the game companies themselves refuse to make one. The whole adventure of the MMO is just utterly dead. Dead. Gone.
Again, this is why Dragon Age: Inquisition is so important. It shows that any argument saying these are possible in MMOs can just be slapped down. Verdant Brink argues against it. Lost Precipice and Gilded Hollow also demonstrate thematic capacities.

People know it can be done. It surprised no one when That_Shaman found whole maps just like this not in the game but made floating around out there. Again, evidence the Devs put the time forward, but someone stopped them from making naturalistic maps instead of some watered down nitwit’s spreadsheet estimate.

So people are aware the game can be better. It’s just not clear who is stopping it.

People came in with the impression we were going to be fighting an uphill battle with the world we knew either underwater or very darkly in ruins. Guild Wars 1 could have pulled that off. Maybe all of the races clustered in that single poster town.

Instead Guild Wars 2… has so far been a tour of Disney World with a few accidental crossings into Epcot. The first dragon being literally a ride…

So, the love and hate of this game is in its conflicts with its own identity. The Developers of Guild Wars 2 seem to genuinely want to be different and develop this game. Sylvari’s most beautiful hair, for example, was a developers individual accomplishment. She made it for us. Otherwise we wouldn’t have it. Someone or something is holding them back.

One issue that may really be a ball in their ballpark is that they want to be different so much so that they want to be different against themselves.
Guild Wars 2 struggles with its passion to be different even against itself. It makes WvW, but then won’t take the time to appreciate it as a vital part of the game and its players too. The one developer recently going so far to say that they thought WvW was fine, but being watched. The message to anyone that heard that, “We’re williing to kill off or let die large chunks of our community’s content arbitrarily.”

It’s comments like that which make us sit back and start turning on google for a new game. That’s one clear case where it was definitely the devs that made everyone reallly nervous.

The real problem with Guild Wars 2 is it is never certain when your second of the game is going to get removed or ignored to death; from classes all the way up to entire seconds of the end-game."

PvP gets 1 new map, but people are kind of looking at it scratching their heads. One map? For a whole expansion? Games like Blizzard, evening dying Blizzard, can still pump out something: that while making a movie. And I say this when very seriously, I don’t PvP. But also, seriously because… it was a staple part of the Guild Wars 2 franchise.
Open-World (probably the most vital part of Guild Wars 2 uniqueness and content) just got dropped for a year’s stint of development towards raid content.
Dungeons got made and dropped (probably a good thing, but not the way it was done). Fractals got implemented, then drop rate nerfed, then nerfed again.
Ascended armor becomes the norm, then gets second-handed to legendary armor (still a great uncertainty about the identity of the game.

In a very short summary of all of this, "It’s quite clear that the MMO industry has so reduced their production of gaming content that we are now able to compare anime titles like Tree of Savior with Guild Wars 2, Black Desert Online, The Moon Blade, Vindictus, WoW, and even Blade and Soul. It doesn’t matter if you are buying a game from a giant developer or a little tiny company, they’re going to be nearly the same game. The only difference is whether you have steampunk and some lucky moments of realistic serious graphics like Guild Wars 2 or a wide smear of cartoons.

Going back to the fears players and conflicts players have with development presentation vs. product… Blade and Soul. NCsoft has a habit of making more than one game at a time… It’s the only company I can think of that produces products that compete with themselves. The problem being that we, as players, have to sit back and ask, “Are we going to get dropped in priority for this thing?” Or worse, will they just turn the servers off on Guild Wars 2 for that? Doubtful, but it happened to City of Heroes. So here again, players are nervous.

All of this creates a lot of tension with the community. All of the hate just comes down to, “Please don’t destroy anymore! I’ve got this little niche of content left over here if only… nooooo…,” and so on.

The fact is this is happening with all MMOs anymore. It comes down to what you want from the ruins. If you’re playing a die hard Korean MMO you’re going to be a bunch of balloons attached to a skeleton with skirts bursting at the seams. Guys, you get to have your version of rooster hair because it symbolizes other things. If you’re playing an American MMO you’re trying to sort out what the identity crisis is. If you’re not playing one of these you’re trying out some of the new stuff like Dragon Age: Inquisition uncertain if this Multiplayer thing is going to last, but already sure no more maps are coming and EA refuses to add renewing missions to the war table.

Guild Wars 2 is stable. Complain all you want, it is that.

What’s Anet about? Trying to stay recognizable with all the other MMOs
- realistically 8 keys is sufficient to play 99% of the MMOs out there anymore.
- new maps aren’t required
- content is niche oriented to death
- with the loss of the grand narrative the ‘grand world’ went out with the rest of the bath water
- it isn’t sure what to prioritize on either and we should be super happy about that…

HoT: The Love, the Hate.

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Eirdyne.9843

Eirdyne.9843

- Correction:
Again, this is why Dragon Age: Inquisition is so important. It shows that any argument saying these are impossible in MMOs can just be slapped down. Verdant Brink argues against it. Lost Precipice and Gilded Hollow also demonstrate thematic capacities.

HoT: The Love, the Hate.

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Majic.4801

Majic.4801

+1 for brevity.

But seriously, quite the grand narrative indeed. And, for some reason, I feel a sudden urge to play Dragon Age: Inquisition.

“Not the same, real and true. True you feel inside.
Always follow what is true.” — Sentry-skritt Bordekka

HoT: The Love, the Hate.

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Natebert.8432

Natebert.8432

Thoughtful and unfortunately, I agree …

Thank you for taking the time to write this. It’s the only way ANet has a chance to change.

HoT: The Love, the Hate.

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Exotrax.4207

Exotrax.4207

Thanks for sharing your well written thoughts about MMOs and Anet.

I started play games with a C64 and saw how they evolved from the 80s till now.

At these days big company like EA , Ubisoft , NCsoft , Anet and so on are making games only to create a vacuum that suck your money , I see rarely in these days a company that makes a game with the goal of having players enjoy the game and play it for a long time………..NO

Now they make games with one goal …….how we can suck money to users.

I mean …..look what EA did with the new StarWars Battlefront …..its all about season pass and DLC , no deep gameplay like the old BF games ….a total joke.

Sad but true ………gaming at these days …..it’s all about money ……and yes ……I had to spend money in GW2 gem store buying gold for gems to be able craft and ascended weapon in stead to go around like a zombie for a month gathering mats.

So yes I did Pay to Win.