Guild Wars 2

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

18 Dungeons

Straylight.7529:

I think the more time passes the more difficult it gets to compare an older game to its successor. Technological advances allow game developers to make far more complex content than ever before.

You need to consider that many players/fans take it for granted that a successor surpasses the original game in both quantity and quality when it comes to content. Unfortunately there’s a trade-off. Heart of Thorns clearly focuses on quality over quantity: Fewer maps/zones but far more complex and interesting than anything GW1 offered (or any contemporary MMO!). Fewer armor sets but (in my opinion) far superior in design and more customizable than anything WoW (for example) has to offer. Instead of boring fetch-quests we got fewer but more meaningful events. Now we have map-wide meta events etc etc..

If you want every aspect of the game to evolve and take it to the next level you need to be prepared to settle for less quantity. In that contex comparing raw numbers becomes more and more meaningless.

You and I have different ideas on what quality is. I’ve only seen 2 armor sets, and one of them involves getting a map to T4 then RNG to complete. The lay stone armor is not to my liking, but that’s my problem, not ANets. I’m guessing the others are the armor sets locked behind guild halls? That was a poor move, as only players in guild guilds will get them, sure small guilds will get then at some point, maybe.

As for the maps, they are nice to look at, but they are a tangled mess.

Einlanzer.1627:

Vayne.8563:

I’d take the four maps I got with HoT over all the maps in EotN any day. The complexity of these maps is astounding.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved Eye of the North. But then, we haven’t seen raids yet, and Eye of the North didn’t have expansion content coming in reguilarly either. We have to see what the new content delivery cadence is. Also EotN offered nothing at all for PvP.

I think it’s okay to do a little of both. I sort of hope the next expansion/set of maps we get goes in a different direction – specifically – reduced complexity and greater quantity.

It seems to be a common mantra that quality > quantity, and that was a major design goal for GW2, but I’ve long argued that you really need a bit of both and should strive to find a middle ground.

I’d actually argue that too many maps is bad because it stretches out the player base and encourages abandoning old maps. At the very least, it’s better to have 1 large map than 2 maps at half the area each — it’s the exact same amount of content either way.

So, it’s not just complexity, it’s also size, and the new maps are much bigger than GW1 maps.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Straylight.7529:

I think the more time passes the more difficult it gets to compare an older game to its successor. Technological advances allow game developers to make far more complex content than ever before.

You need to consider that many players/fans take it for granted that a successor surpasses the original game in both quantity and quality when it comes to content. Unfortunately there’s a trade-off. Heart of Thorns clearly focuses on quality over quantity: Fewer maps/zones but far more complex and interesting than anything GW1 offered (or any contemporary MMO!). Fewer armor sets but (in my opinion) far superior in design and more customizable than anything WoW (for example) has to offer. Instead of boring fetch-quests we got fewer but more meaningful events. Now we have map-wide meta events etc etc..

If you want every aspect of the game to evolve and take it to the next level you need to be prepared to settle for less quantity. In that contex comparing raw numbers becomes more and more meaningless.

You and I have different ideas on what quality is. I’ve only seen 2 armor sets, and one of them involves getting a map to T4 then RNG to complete. The lay stone armor is not to my liking, but that’s my problem, not ANets. I’m guessing the others are the armor sets locked behind guild halls? That was a poor move, as only players in guild guilds will get them, sure small guilds will get then at some point, maybe.

As for the maps, they are nice to look at, but they are a tangled mess.

The T4 one you’re referring to is likely VB for bladed armor. The only RNG with that set is if you’re trying to get pieces from the airship caches. The blades chest armor is a 100% drop if you get T4. It’s a fairly easy thing to do and many maps accomplish this through the day.

You can also get one of the pieces by doing the story. I can’t remember if it’s the helm or gloves. You can also buy the pieces, except for the chest, from vendors.

Ayrilana.1396:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Straylight.7529:

I think the more time passes the more difficult it gets to compare an older game to its successor. Technological advances allow game developers to make far more complex content than ever before.

You need to consider that many players/fans take it for granted that a successor surpasses the original game in both quantity and quality when it comes to content. Unfortunately there’s a trade-off. Heart of Thorns clearly focuses on quality over quantity: Fewer maps/zones but far more complex and interesting than anything GW1 offered (or any contemporary MMO!). Fewer armor sets but (in my opinion) far superior in design and more customizable than anything WoW (for example) has to offer. Instead of boring fetch-quests we got fewer but more meaningful events. Now we have map-wide meta events etc etc..

If you want every aspect of the game to evolve and take it to the next level you need to be prepared to settle for less quantity. In that contex comparing raw numbers becomes more and more meaningless.

You and I have different ideas on what quality is. I’ve only seen 2 armor sets, and one of them involves getting a map to T4 then RNG to complete. The lay stone armor is not to my liking, but that’s my problem, not ANets. I’m guessing the others are the armor sets locked behind guild halls? That was a poor move, as only players in guild guilds will get them, sure small guilds will get then at some point, maybe.

As for the maps, they are nice to look at, but they are a tangled mess.

The T4 one you’re referring to is likely VB for bladed armor. The only RNG with that set is if you’re trying to get pieces from the airship caches. The blades chest armor is a 100% drop if you get T4. It’s a fairly easy thing to do and many maps accomplish this through the day.

You can also get one of the pieces by doing the story. I can’t remember if it’s the helm or gloves. You can also buy the pieces, except for the chest, from vendors.

if the chest is a 100% drop, then why was there the flame war on the forums about it? ANet didn’t come along and say, it’s a 100% drop if you hit T4, so….

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ayrilana.1396:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Straylight.7529:

I think the more time passes the more difficult it gets to compare an older game to its successor. Technological advances allow game developers to make far more complex content than ever before.

You need to consider that many players/fans take it for granted that a successor surpasses the original game in both quantity and quality when it comes to content. Unfortunately there’s a trade-off. Heart of Thorns clearly focuses on quality over quantity: Fewer maps/zones but far more complex and interesting than anything GW1 offered (or any contemporary MMO!). Fewer armor sets but (in my opinion) far superior in design and more customizable than anything WoW (for example) has to offer. Instead of boring fetch-quests we got fewer but more meaningful events. Now we have map-wide meta events etc etc..

If you want every aspect of the game to evolve and take it to the next level you need to be prepared to settle for less quantity. In that contex comparing raw numbers becomes more and more meaningless.

You and I have different ideas on what quality is. I’ve only seen 2 armor sets, and one of them involves getting a map to T4 then RNG to complete. The lay stone armor is not to my liking, but that’s my problem, not ANets. I’m guessing the others are the armor sets locked behind guild halls? That was a poor move, as only players in guild guilds will get them, sure small guilds will get then at some point, maybe.

As for the maps, they are nice to look at, but they are a tangled mess.

The T4 one you’re referring to is likely VB for bladed armor. The only RNG with that set is if you’re trying to get pieces from the airship caches. The blades chest armor is a 100% drop if you get T4. It’s a fairly easy thing to do and many maps accomplish this through the day.

You can also get one of the pieces by doing the story. I can’t remember if it’s the helm or gloves. You can also buy the pieces, except for the chest, from vendors.

if the chest is a 100% drop, then why was there the flame war on the forums about it? ANet didn’t come along and say, it’s a 100% drop if you hit T4, so….

Thread?

Edit: It may also require at least 100% participation level. I think Dulfy mentioned this in her guide.

This is by far the most buggiest and content light expansion I have ever played in any MMO to date. I started in EQ/UO btw so that’s a pretty impressive feat. Only a few weeks later after HoT launch, I don’t want to log in and play no more; it’s the same old grind doing the same old things. Well played anet, well played. /standingovation

BrotherBelial.3094:

Most of what got added to the “core” of guild wars 2 is gone. And if you are talking about the LS, you have to buy that on top, so it would probably be the same with HoT. So if you do compare the 2, including price. HoT is lacking big time.

You absolutely did not have to buy the LS, all of us who were there at the time got it for free. HoT, from what I gather, INCLUDES all living world stuff to come, and is not merely required for it.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

I took this from the Eye of the North website:-

The expansion introduces:
41 new armor sets, including rare, stand-alone pieces
100 new profession-specific skills (10 per profession, none of which are elite)
50 new PvE only skills including 3 elite skills
10 new heroes
18 Dungeons
124 new quests
The Hall of Monuments, a place which allows you to obtain unique titles, companions, weapons, armor, and miniatures in Guild Wars 2 based on your achievements in the original Guild Wars.
More than the previous campaigns, Eye of the North is full of easter eggs and “hidden” quests, which are not immediately accessible.

For those who may not know, Eye of the North was the only expansion Anet released during GW1, the other releases were separate campaigns within the same world.

I’ve not delved too deeply into HoT so far but for those that have, how does what we bought compare to the previous expansion in terms of content and value for money?

I don’t think the comparison can be made like this and be fair. The two expansion’s had completely different philosophy that can be summed up as: Heart of Thorns is primarily a feature expansion, EotN is primarily a content expansion.

Heart of thorns adds many, many mechanics and concepts to the game that affect it overall and provide a very good base for building additional content in the future.

Eye of the North added a good deal of content onto the already existing game—but very little in the way of actual new features.

So why don’t we compare the FEATURE additions to EotN’s FEATURE additions (and not their content) and see how each 1 comes out?

Heart of Thorns
-Raids
-Elite Specializations
-New class (Revenant)
-Masteries
-Gliding (part of masteries but so substantial that I felt it merited it’s own mention)
-Guild Halls
-Guild Rework (completely different/new guild missions system, new way for advancing guild, new ways of guild chatting etc…)
-Raid UI
-Map Contribution mechanic & accompanying UI
-Precursor Crafting
-Legendary Armor/Back pieces

Eye of the North
-Hall of Monuments

Arius.7031:

Folks in this thread are making grievous errors in thinking and in specific are not thinking about the consequences of what they’re proposing.

Let’s suppose for a moment, ANet added about 16 maps roughly on par with existent GW2 content. What would the situation for us be? Well, we’d play the game for about 2-3 weeks exploring these maps (I’ve done 80% world map completion on a completely new character since HoT launched, you can easily go through 2-4 maps a day)… Then we’d have each individual map sitting at relatively low population levels and this would mean virtually nothing interesting could be done in these maps forevermore.

Instead what ANet has done is they have opted to make far fewer, but larger maps with far more reason to go back to them. Each map has unique skins, armor sets, achievements, and rewards tied to it (and often they tie back into the greater overall collection systems ie killing the legendary vinetooth for glint’s bastion). What this has essentially done is it has made it so—for the forseeable future—these areas are virtually guaranteed to remain active insofar as a 3 year old mmo is concerned.

This was a HUGE problem in guild wars 1 that the fanboys seem to have forgotten. There were SO many huge, empty maps with nothing but a few quests tied to each that you often just couldn’t find anyone to do these things with.

More DOES NOT equal better. Stop deluding yourselves. If you don’t think high quality content that adds a lot to the longevity of the game is worth the asking price, that’s cool. We all have our own opinions in that regard. But stop pretending “hurr durr only way xpac is worth it is if it has as much bland content as I expect from other games”. GW2 is a very, very unique game and it has never worked in the same way other games have. Comparing GW2’s expansion to GW1’s, WoW’s, or any other game’s just by sheer content count is comparing apples to oranges and you all bloody well know that.

Except nothing interesting is happening in the new maps as well – with the exception of the last one.
The only problem is that you need to grind them out if you want to level up or get any sort of progress that is gated behind said map currency.

The maps themselves are not what are keeping the players playing – it’s not the awesomeness of the jungle that keeps people in these maps – it’s the gating of progress, collections, skins, masteries and Raids that these maps bring.

It is artificial. Players do it because they need to.
Look at CoF P1 – a dungeon that’s been done and overdone by most players – and yet they’re still doing it now to farm masteries – is that happening because CoF P1 is so awesome? No. It’s happening because people want to farm their stuff.

Same with the HoT maps.
Ask yourself how many would be in these maps if there were no forced gates that made you stay in those maps.

I did not complain for more map space – my personal complaint is with the lack of armor skins in which case more is always better because it creates visual variety.

Also as a personal preference I’d have rather had 3 1 level maps – or even 2 – instead of a 3 layer map that’s a complete clusterkitten.

I never said GW2 isn’t unique – but unique is not an excuse to give us very little stuff.
Unique is no excuse to have very poor Exalted mastery rewards only to add an Exalted themed glider in the gem store.

Arius.7031:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Most of what got added to the “core” of guild wars 2 is gone. And if you are talking about the LS, you have to buy that on top, so it would probably be the same with HoT. So if you do compare the 2, including price. HoT is lacking big time.

You absolutely did not have to buy the LS, all of us who were there at the time got it for free. HoT, from what I gather, INCLUDES all living world stuff to come, and is not merely required for it.

You misunderstand what I mean. If you have missed the LS. Then you have to buy that on top of HoT. Lets face it, you kind of “have” to buy it, the story of HoT will make no sense at all. Any one who got the game after LS2 finished, or got GW2 after playing it on a F2P account has to buy it.

So if you look at HoT and the Core game as they are now. The Core game offers alot more than what HoT dose for the price you payed at launch of both games.

You pay $50 for GW2, you got a massive game, with a lot of content. You pay $50 for HoT and get 4 maps(not including the guild halls) I fail to see how HoT is the same value of GW2, unless HoT adds a load of maps.between now and the next xpac, so far for me HoT has not been worth the price ANet asked for it, but then I got mine from Amazon and saved about $10 on the price.(I’m from the UK so I payed £, but its easier to use $).

It made me laugh today when I was playing, that VB and AB had a load of players in them, but TD and DS where empty, HoT might include all future LS in the price, but I’m starting to wonder if there will be anyone playing HoT by then.

LS2 story can be done for free if done with someone who has it that opens up the instances.

Price to content of expansions have never been equitable to the price to content of the core games. Anyone that has ever bought an expansion, DLC, and so on one know this.

GW2 released for $60, not $50. You have paid $50 but that’s about as relevant as someone who paid $10.

Quality over quantity. There’s so much more going on in those maps than the GW2 core ones. If you’re stuck on value compared to what you got with what you paid for the core game, I expect you to never ever buy an expansion or additional content ever again.

You were likely put on a new map for TD. Last night we tried to get a brand new TD map and counted up to six different maps going on at the time. For DS, the active ones tend to fill up within the first 15 minutes of when the map started.

Harper.4173:

Except nothing interesting is happening in the new maps as well – with the exception of the last one.
The only problem is that you need to grind them out if you want to level up or get any sort of progress that is gated behind said map currency.

Bah you responded before I finished editing my post to respond more directly to the op (figured it’d be rude to just randomly target the random responses in the thread without first addressing the op directly). But I’ll go ahead and respond to you.

This is your personal opinion. Your opinion =/= to fact. I find the metas and boss fights in each map fun and challenging in and of themselves, I do Tarir and Dragon’s Stand purely for my own enjoyment and not strictly for their own rewards.

The maps themselves are not what are keeping the players playing – it’s not the awesomeness of the jungle that keeps people in these maps – it’s the gating of progress, collections, skins, masteries and Raids that these maps bring.

This is true of any content addition that could be made to any game ever. You can’t get someone to re-do content they’ve already done (outside of specific types of players) except by giving them INCENTIVES to do so.

It is artificial. Players do it because they need to.
Look at CoF P1 – a dungeon that’s been done and overdone by most players – and yet they’re still doing it now to farm masteries – is that happening because CoF P1 is so awesome? No. It’s happening because people want to farm their stuff.

Agreed, but is it the case that it’s a bad thing that players do it because they need to? A player may do Tarir meta because he needs to, but that doesn’t mean he’s not enjoying the content again. They’re not mutually exclusive propositions. No matter what content they add, or how much, eventually people will beat it and that’s that. If they don’t provide incentives via rewards that are in some way gated, the maps die and that decreases the joy of all those who come to the game later.

Same with the HoT maps.
Ask yourself how many would be in these maps if there were no forced gates that made you stay in those maps.

Ask yourself how many would be in this game if there were no rewards/incetives that made them stay. Very few.

I did not complain for more map space – my personal complaint is with the lack of armor skins in which case more is always better because it creates visual variety.

Okay, that’s your personal preference, so the xpac is not satisfying for you. Fine. Can’t satisfy everyone.

Also as a personal preference I’d have rather had 3 1 level maps – or even 2 – instead of a 3 layer map that’s a complete clusterkitten.

Complete personal preference, the vast majority of people very much enjoy the new maps and auric basin/dragon’s stand are actually quite easy to understand and explore. Very little verticality, and even then generally in only very specific areas.

I never said GW2 isn’t unique – but unique is not an excuse to give us very little stuff.
Unique is no excuse to have very poor Exalted mastery rewards only to add an Exalted themed glider in the gem store.

I addressed this in the post I edited it. You’re viewing this as a traditional content expansion when instead it was always intended to be a feature expansion. Big difference. You’re committing an even more grave error when you judge it only based on the content you immediately get when what you purchased was some immediate content and then some content which would come out later.

Since you seem to care so much about skins, consider:

We’ve gotten:

Armor
- 10 full distinct armor sets, Bladed, Leystone, and Guild armor for all 3 weights (light/heavy/medium), and Mistward heavy armor set
-24 misc. pieces of armor (2 per class, 1 for mastering base class and 1 for mastering elite spec, 3 for revenant character creation choices, 3 invisible shoes 1 for each weight to make it so you can just see your char’s feet)
-12 backpacks (3 per order, 3 orders, 1 auric, 1 luminary, 1 legendary)

Weapons
-8 complete weapon sets (Auric, Chak, Reclaimed, Plated, Machined, Golden, Shimmer, Tenebrous, and Golden Fractal)
-18 class based weapons – (1 for completing the elite spec, 1 for collection)
-21 misc weapons.
-Finally we have a guaranteed 2nd generation of new legendaries coming into the game.

These are just what I can confirm from dulfy’s article. There may be way more I don’t know about. http://dulfy.net/2015/11/08/gw2-hot-weapons-armor-and-backpieces-guide/

I don’t think this expansion is as light on skins as you seem to think it is. Consider, these aren’t just slightly different skins, they’re not re-skins or minor alterations like we’d see in other content expansions (such as eye of the north, anyone who looks at most of those can see a lot of them are very same-y to older content). They’re very unique/different skins.

Ayrilana.1396:

LS2 story can be done for free if done with someone who has it that opens up the instances.

Price to content of expansions have never been equitable to the price to content of the core games. Anyone that has ever bought an expansion, DLC, and so on one know this.

GW2 released for $60, not $50. You have paid $50 but that’s about as relevant as someone who paid $10.

WoW cataclysm redid the whole of the core gamek near enough anyway. As I said, I’m comparing the games at launch, and what we got for our money, as it stands HoT might add more content that you don’t have to pay for, but we will have to see.

BrotherBelial.3094:

You misunderstand what I mean. If you have missed the LS. Then you have to buy that on top of HoT. Lets face it, you kind of “have” to buy it, the story of HoT will make no sense at all. Any one who got the game after LS2 finished, or got GW2 after playing it on a F2P account has to buy it.

So if you look at HoT and the Core game as they are now. The Core game offers alot more than what HoT dose for the price you payed at launch of both games.

This is how it works in all dlcs/expansions for any game ever. Especially modern games, where content is much more interesting/sophisticated than it was in older games, and as such they can’t afford to make anywhere near as much of it.

You pay $50 for GW2, you got a massive game, with a lot of content. You pay $50 for HoT and get 4 maps(not including the guild halls) I fail to see how HoT is the same value of GW2, unless HoT adds a load of maps.between now and the next xpac, so far for me HoT has not been worth the price ANet asked for it, but then I got mine from Amazon and saved about $10 on the price.(I’m from the UK so I payed £, but its easier to use $).

HoT isn’t the same value as GW2—but that’s because GW2 is a huge steal and not because HoT is not worth it. By your own line of reasoning, you should never buy a normal single player video game, because they’ll never be worth as much as GW2 (GW2 has at least 200 hours of unique content in it, map comping, personal story, basic wvw/spvp before you’ve memorized everything, 9 classes etc…).

It made me laugh today when I was playing, that VB and AB had a load of players in them, but TD and DS where empty, HoT might include all future LS in the price, but I’m starting to wonder if there will be anyone playing HoT by then.

Yeah that’s because the maps cycle. When dragonstand is on it’s set cooldown timer, virtually no one is there because nobody needs to be. But when that timer pops, LFG lights up with dozens of LFG posts taxing people into different instances. Sometimes these maps will be empty—but not for long. That’s the point of the metas and how they have down-time. I can consistently find 3-4 full maps of Dragon’s Stand in oceanic (deadest time of day) when it resets. Easily.

fixit.7189:

This is by far the most buggiest and content light expansion I have ever played in any MMO to date. I started in EQ/UO btw so that’s a pretty impressive feat. Only a few weeks later after HoT launch, I don’t want to log in and play no more; it’s the same old grind doing the same old things. Well played anet, well played. /standingovation

It’s probably just because I’ve been reading the forums too much, but I’m beginning to feel the same way. I don’t regret buying it, but I do feel like I’m already running out of interesting things to do. And it’s not like I don’t have stuff I can do… it’s just something about the design is boring me.

If I had to put my finger on it, off the cuff, I’d say the main thing bothering me is 1) how long it takes to do meta events and 2) the wait in-between. When I go farm SW, there’s a rhythm to it I can get into and the wait in-between is virtually nothing, especially if you watch LFG. With this stuff, it’s like… ok, I did the two hour long meta, now I wait twenty to thirty minutes to start again, so I can spend another two hours before we even see the bosses.

I have stamina, but not that much stamina. It’s exhausting, frankly.

Labjax.2465:

Swift.1930:

My feelings too. I would say that some degree of armor class theme is still reasonable (an elementalist in full plate “light” armor would be kind of odd), but limiting styles based on class is just closed-minded.

Yeah, I’m definitely ok with some class style. I just don’t like it when it overshadows sub-styles within the theme. For instance, plate almost invariably is going to (and does) have a more weighted look to the fabric, like parts of it are smelted steel. Cloth almost always has a wispier style, like the fabric is lightly woven together. Leather almost always has a thick look to it.

Those aspects I’m completely ok with. It’s more…. everything else. Like the fact that heavy and light have almost zero plain pant designs and medium has almost nothing but trenchcoats. I mean, for one thing, the fact that heavy and light share the butt cape obsession can barely even be called class distinction, since they both have that same problem. :P

Exactly, haha. Pretty sure I remember rangers having more styles in Guild Wars 1 than in 2. Maybe I’m misremembering, though.

Labjax.2465:

fixit.7189:

This is by far the most buggiest and content light expansion I have ever played in any MMO to date. I started in EQ/UO btw so that’s a pretty impressive feat. Only a few weeks later after HoT launch, I don’t want to log in and play no more; it’s the same old grind doing the same old things. Well played anet, well played. /standingovation

It’s probably just because I’ve been reading the forums too much, but I’m beginning to feel the same way. I don’t regret buying it, but I do feel like I’m already running out of interesting things to do. And it’s not like I don’t have stuff I can do… it’s just something about the design is boring me.

If I had to put my finger on it, off the cuff, I’d say the main thing bothering me is 1) how long it takes to do meta events and 2) the wait in-between. When I go farm SW, there’s a rhythm to it I can get into and the wait in-between is virtually nothing, especially if you watch LFG. With this stuff, it’s like… ok, I did the two hour long meta, now I wait twenty to thirty minutes to start again, so I can spend another two hours before we even see the bosses.

I have stamina, but not that much stamina. It’s exhausting, frankly.

Yeah, a lot of long time investments for very few elements. I’d personally have preferred a ton more maps with very little developed content/events on them; I loved exploration in Guild Wars 1, but 2 seems a lot smaller and more restrictive about walking space. As someone who has “Been there, done that” and waited three years for the expansion, I was hoping for more places to roam!

A map doesn’t have to have any other purpose than to be explored (maybe minor events or quests can be added, but that can even happen later). See Elite: Dangerous if you don’t believe me! (Space exploration MMO that builds itself as players explore.)

Swift.1930:

Labjax.2465:

Swift.1930:

My feelings too. I would say that some degree of armor class theme is still reasonable (an elementalist in full plate “light” armor would be kind of odd), but limiting styles based on class is just closed-minded.

Yeah, I’m definitely ok with some class style. I just don’t like it when it overshadows sub-styles within the theme. For instance, plate almost invariably is going to (and does) have a more weighted look to the fabric, like parts of it are smelted steel. Cloth almost always has a wispier style, like the fabric is lightly woven together. Leather almost always has a thick look to it.

Those aspects I’m completely ok with. It’s more…. everything else. Like the fact that heavy and light have almost zero plain pant designs and medium has almost nothing but trenchcoats. I mean, for one thing, the fact that heavy and light share the butt cape obsession can barely even be called class distinction, since they both have that same problem. :P

Exactly, haha. Pretty sure I remember rangers having more styles in Guild Wars 1 than in 2. Maybe I’m misremembering, though.

Not like it’s difficult to google leather armor and use those images for inspiration on new medium armor. Take note of how many in the first several hundred images have trenchcoats.

I also see no reason why you can’t just take a concept from a heavy armor design and convert it to leather.

Some examples although they’re female armor.

Labjax.2465:

fixit.7189:

This is by far the most buggiest and content light expansion I have ever played in any MMO to date. I started in EQ/UO btw so that’s a pretty impressive feat. Only a few weeks later after HoT launch, I don’t want to log in and play no more; it’s the same old grind doing the same old things. Well played anet, well played. /standingovation

It’s probably just because I’ve been reading the forums too much, but I’m beginning to feel the same way. I don’t regret buying it, but I do feel like I’m already running out of interesting things to do. And it’s not like I don’t have stuff I can do… it’s just something about the design is boring me.

If I had to put my finger on it, off the cuff, I’d say the main thing bothering me is 1) how long it takes to do meta events and 2) the wait in-between. When I go farm SW, there’s a rhythm to it I can get into and the wait in-between is virtually nothing, especially if you watch LFG. With this stuff, it’s like… ok, I did the two hour long meta, now I wait twenty to thirty minutes to start again, so I can spend another two hours before we even see the bosses.

I have stamina, but not that much stamina. It’s exhausting, frankly.

The worst offender is Tangled Depths, where you can do all the preparation events in ~30 minutes and the actual meta is only every two hours.

Arius.7031:

Agreed, but is it the case that it’s a bad thing that players do it because they need to? A player may do Tarir meta because he needs to, but that doesn’t mean he’s not enjoying the content again. They’re not mutually exclusive propositions. No matter what content they add, or how much, eventually people will beat it and that’s that. If they don’t provide incentives via rewards that are in some way gated, the maps die and that decreases the joy of all those who come to the game later.

Yes but some of the gates are ridiculous – it takes around 19.800 Aurilium to make all the Exalted weapons and unlock the backpiece. That’s a bit much no?
I don’t imagine anyone would still take enjoyment in doing Auric Basin for a period of time long enough to gather 19.800 aurilium.

Arius.7031:

Ask yourself how many would be in this game if there were no rewards/incetives that made them stay. Very few.

Except in the core game there are multiple ways to get most stuff – including tier one legendaries (not saying this is a good thing). Just because incentive is needed doesn’t mean it should be placed behind a single method of obtaining an item that’s also incredibly grindy.

Arius.7031:

Complete personal preference, the vast majority of people very much enjoy the new maps and auric basin/dragon’s stand are actually quite easy to understand and explore. Very little verticality, and even then generally in only very specific areas.

Odd – the vast majority of people I spoke with disliked the maps – I’m pretty sure nobody knows exactly how the majority of players feel about these maps but in general the average player has difficulty and is frustrated by things that are above average in difficulty – which these maps certainly are.
Their difficulty comes from their convoluted nature and odd way of navigating them.

Arius.7031:

I addressed this in the post I edited it. You’re viewing this as a traditional content expansion when instead it was always intended to be a feature expansion. Big difference. You’re committing an even more grave error when you judge it only based on the content you immediately get when what you purchased was some immediate content and then some content which would come out later.

Except for the small fact that I’m judging it based on how it was advertised when it was sold to me.
When I got HoT – it was advertised as an expansion – it was not called a feature expansion, the number of maps was not yet confirmed and most importantly there was no talk of this season-pass like situation where I pay for it all up front and get my content in a stream, with some coming on release and some coming later.
There was no mention that only 3 legendary weapons would release with HoT nor that they would come later than the expansion.
So I’m judging it on what was put in front of me in terms of information when I decided to make my purchase.

Do you believe that at that time Anet did not know they would only release 4 maps? Or that Raids and Legendary weapons would come later at the moment they opened up preorders?
They knew – but they omitted these details in order to not hurt sales – knowing full well that being up-front about it would kill hype and cause controversy.

Arius.7031:

- 10 full distinct armor sets, Bladed, Leystone, and Guild armor for all 3 weights (light/heavy/medium), and Mistward heavy armor set

Let’s make something clear -a set is a specific armor across all weight types. Stretching it out to make it seem like it’s a different thing when in fact it isn’t is silly.

Bladed armor is an armor set – with 3 weight types. Each weight type does not constitute a whole set because it is still bladed armor – the same theme.

24 misc armor pieces – I didn’t know back pieces counted as armor now. Nor did I know that the lack of armor ( eg. shoes – an already existing in-game asset) constituted as armor.
By that logic – adding an item that removes armor visuals from all slots actually constitutes as armor added to the game?!?!

If you’re also going to consider the 3 revenant creation headgear choices as armor ( which is a sad attempt at making the expansion seem like it had more stuff) let’s compare to the game – that brought 24 such choices ( as much as the expansion’s total unique armor pieces) only via character creation.

Arius.7031:

Weapons
-8 complete weapon sets (Auric, Chak, Reclaimed, Plated, Machined, Golden, Shimmer, Tenebrous, and Golden Fractal)
-18 class based weapons – (1 for completing the elite spec, 1 for collection)
-21 misc weapons.
-Finally we have a guaranteed 2nd generation of new legendaries coming into the game.

I didn’t say weapons were lacking – the game has had no lack of weapons since we’ve always had a steady stream via black lion weapons.

Also – it’s funny how the addition of the 2nd generation of legendary weapons is praised as this huge deal that’s come with HoT.
People forget new legendary weapons and new legendary were said by the developers to arrive in 2013 and we all know how that went.

So yeah – getting stuff that should have been in the game for years now won’t get a hurray out of me – sorry.

Lol, had a full in-depth response written up, went away for coffee, came back and when I reviewed it and clicked post, it said anet I needed to sign in again. Once I did, post was gone. Rip wall of text, you’ll be missed.

Harper.4173:

Yes but some of the gates are ridiculous – it takes around 19.800 Aurilium to make all the Exalted weapons and unlock the backpiece. That’s a bit much no?
I don’t imagine anyone would still take enjoyment in doing Auric Basin for a period of time long enough to gather 19.800 aurilium.

A select set of gates being ridiculous (which I agree on) doesn’t make the decision to make a lot of gates bad. Gates are still good, they just need refined.

Except in the core game there are multiple ways to get most stuff – including tier one legendaries (not saying this is a good thing). Just because incentive is needed doesn’t mean it should be placed behind a single method of obtaining an item that’s also incredibly grindy.

Yes and in the core game most areas are barely populated even after this xpac released. As I said earlier I’ve been doing map completion, virtually no one pushes meta not directly relevant to say world bosses or dungeons.

The forced grind FOR A REWARD is a good thing for the overall health of the game. Don’t want to grind? Don’t go for that reward. Simple. The base game didn’t suddenly disappear because you bought HoT, every goal you had before HoT, every reason you ever played, is still valid.

Odd – the vast majority of people I spoke with disliked the maps – I’m pretty sure nobody knows exactly how the majority of players feel about these maps but in general the average player has difficulty and is frustrated by things that are above average in difficulty – which these maps certainly are.
Their difficulty comes from their convoluted nature and odd way of navigating them.

Except I’m not going off of anecdotes I’m going off of overall review count of professionals and users on sites like metacritic. Not that I think they’re worth anything, but since metacritic is actually notorious for being overly negative, it’s noteworthy that the reviews that praise the new maps outnumber the critics by 3 or 4 to 1. Best evidence we have say most people like it, plus my anecdotal experience in game and on these forums even.

Except for the small fact that I’m judging it based on how it was advertised when it was sold to me.
When I got HoT – it was advertised as an expansion – it was not called a feature expansion, the number of maps was not yet confirmed and most importantly there was no talk of this season-pass like situation where I pay for it all up front and get my content in a stream, with some coming on release and some coming later.
There was no mention that only 3 legendary weapons would release with HoT nor that they would come later than the expansion.
So I’m judging it on what was put in front of me in terms of information when I decided to make my purchase.

An expansion focused on features is an expansion, you simply assumed the expansion will be focused on content or unrealistically assumed they could do both. That’s your fault as a consumer for not thinking things through. That’s your fault as a consumer, they didn’t promise 16 maps (in fact they relatively early on confirmed there’d only be 4, and that’s even a pseudo lie on their part considering guild halls and raids are big enough to be maps, and that’s not including the free content they introduced such as the WvW map which dwarfs anything in PvE or stronghold).

You also pre-ordered before you had enough information. Pre purchasing is a risky habit, I did it too but only because I knew no matter how bad it was I would be playing it (I have around 6k hours in game, not suddenly gonna stop cus hot released rofl).

In addition you’re not getting only 3 legendaries with HoT, you’re getting a full new set, you just don’t know when they’re gonna come out. Can’t keep intentionally leaving important bits out like that, it comes across as dishonest.

Do you believe that at that time Anet did not know they would only release 4 maps? Or that Raids and Legendary weapons would come later at the moment they opened up preorders?
They knew – but they omitted these details in order to not hurt sales – knowing full well that being up-front about it would kill hype and cause controversy.

Pray tell, who would have NOT purchased HoT if they knew the raids would release 1 month after HoT? Legendary weapons were barely even one of their selling points too rofl, they focused on a lot of other things instead.

They announced only 4 maps would come with HoT a longggggg time ago, many months ago. We knew that for a long time. If you bought it before hearing that, again, your fault for pre-ordering. Accept the consequences of your own actions instead of blaming others for your mistakes.

Let’s make something clear -a set is a specific armor across all weight types. Stretching it out to make it seem like it’s a different thing when in fact it isn’t is silly.

Bladed armor is an armor set – with 3 weight types. Each weight type does not constitute a whole set because it is still bladed armor – the same theme.

To say they share the same theme does not mean they should be counted as the same. Thematically the chaos hammer is similar to the chaos sword, but they’re completely different in actuality. Light bladed pants don’t go with medium bladed armor. Each weight type is a different armor set, they’re not the same, they look very different in spite of the fact they share a common theme.

To me, an armor set is not a name, nor a set of stats. An armor set is a full set that can be applied to my character. Just because balded light and bladed heavy share the same theme/name, doesn’t mean they’re the same armor set.

24 misc armor pieces – I didn’t know back pieces counted as armor now. Nor did I know that the lack of armor ( eg. shoes – an already existing in-game asset) constituted as armor.
By that logic – adding an item that removes armor visuals from all slots actually constitutes as armor added to the game?!?!

There are 12 backpacks and 24 armor pieces, that later number doesn’t include both. Backpacks are individual aesthetic pieces that your character wears (except the invisible skins which we’ll just count all of them as 1 skin). In the sense that you were meaning armor, I think backpacks should count, and even if not they are at least relevant because they contribute.

Yes invisible things should count because for example you can’t have a monk type look without completely removing your upper armor thereby losing stats. It adds a whole new aesthetic choice for your particular armor slot (in the case of the analogy, the body armor). That’s why there’s such a huge thread about people asking how to get them and such, they’re a big deal.

If you’re also going to consider the 3 revenant creation headgear choices as armor ( which is a sad attempt at making the expansion seem like it had more stuff) let’s compare to the game – that brought 24 such choices ( as much as the expansion’s total unique armor pieces) only via character creation.

We’ve already shown, repeatedly, why comparing it to the base game does nothing to help your case. GW2 being more bang for your buck does not show HoT is not worth your money. GW2 is more bang for your buck than, say, Call of Duty, does that mean Call of Duty is never worth $60? Maybe in your personal opinion, but I think you’d understand if someone disagreed with you. Everyone has their personal opinion, just doesn’t pretend your opinion is anything else.

On the subject of 24 choices in the base character creation (if that’s accurate), that’s not more than the total unique armor pieces in the xpac, just the bladed/guild armor sets alone constitute 36 unique armor pieces.

Also – it’s funny how the addition of the 2nd generation of legendary weapons is praised as this huge deal that’s come with HoT.
People forget new legendary weapons and new legendary were said by the developers to arrive in 2013 and we all know how that went.
So yeah – getting stuff that should have been in the game for years now won’t get a hurray out of me – sorry.

Doesn’t matter what you hurray about. Regardless of when you thought you’d get legendaries, that doesn’t change the fact that legendaries are a part of HoT and therefore a part of it’s value. You can’t just NOT consider them because you thought you’d get them earlier.

Say I make a vacuum that’ll automatically clean the floors of your entire house in 5 minutes daily, and say I tell you I’ll give you 1 for free tomorrow. What if I wait instead for 2 years, give you nothing, and then start selling this vacuum for $5. Would you then go to my amazon page, buy it, then 1 star review it “THIS VACUUM IS NOT WORTH $5 HE WAS GOING TO GIVE ME ONE AGES AGO, IT’S NOT WORTH THE MONEY OBJECTIVELY”? The value of the object doesn’t change because you thought you’d be getting legendaries earlier. They’re part of the expansion and part of the value, it’s just a fact.

Also you’re not only getting 3 new legendaries, you’re getting a full new generation of legendaries. Again, it’s dishonest to not count these things as part of what you payed for when anet specifically said you’d be getting them in the future as well as living world updates.

Also I’m not challenging you on this, just actually curious, when did they promise we’d get a full set of legendary weapons in 2013? I remember precursor crafting, but nothing about a new generation of legendaries.

1. Gates need to be refined – sure – but the current system is terrible. I’m all for gates if we must have them but not at this absurd level.

2.When I mention the core game I’m not mentioning meta events – I’m saying that you could for example level up in WvW, PvP, instanced content (dungeons) or the open world.
With HoT your options are severely limited.

3.Critics are different than players- they have different values and means of judging things – I understand your belief but I doubt it’s true.

4.I assumed based on what they told us – they presented us HoT as an expansion and gave examples of content being added with that expansion. They never said it would be a feature expansion nor did they ever say the content would be incomplete.

For example Legendary Weapons – they said we would get new legendary weapons with HoT – I admit I did not assume that this meant the weapon set could be incomplete because there was no reason ( precedent) to assume that.
This is however not doing things in good faith.
Since there was no mention of a season pass how could I assume that some of the content would come later?

And why didn’t they mention it if indeed it was the case? Was it because it would hurt sales?

I’m not saying it isn’t my fault also – but I’m also saying these kinds of tactics is why Anet has lost the faith of its player base and why most people complain, bash and generally are unhappy.

5.I already explained to you – HoT gives you what it gives you at launch – and not even that.
We’re getting 3 new legendary weapons on Tuesday – apart from that we’re getting the promise of more which we’ve had before and it’s been just smoke and mirrors.

Also – the expansion launched on Oct 23 – with the 4 maps confirm coming at the end of august – is that a huge window of time? Of one month and 3 weeks?

6.Armor sets – if you count them as that which you can apply to your character then please include the fact that you can only use one set on any given character. So how exactly as a heavy user are the light and medium set of use?

7.The fact that invisible things are a big deal does not make them armor – they are not assets that were created and took time – at least not as much as a regular armor skin.

In fact – some armor slots have the show/hide button as a feature – so is that a skin now too?

8. As a final point – if you order something are you content with it being shipped to you in bits?
Say you order a new car, or a new shirt – or a new piece of furniture – is it preferable that you receive it all at once or in waves?

I mean – you’ll argue I can play HoT now – and that’s true – but you too could drive your car without a radio or climate control for a while couldn’t you?

Do you honestly believe this is good business practice at its finest?

Also the new legendary weapons have already existed – the staff was datamined a few years back – the point here being is that these were originally assets that they intended to put in the game only to hold off and now ship them with HoT.
This does not mean they were worked on for HoT or should be considered part of the “HoT expansion effort” considering they had them lying around for a while ( at least the staff).

In your metaphor if you charge 5 dollars and justify the price because of “development time and resources used in the past 2 years let’s say” but actually you had those assets before that 2 year period then yes – there’s a problem there.

On top of this, you’ll also see new legendary weapons and new types of legendary gear in 2013.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/looking-ahead-guild-wars-2-in-2013/

Arius.7031:

This is how it works in all dlcs/expansions for any game ever. Especially modern games, where content is much more interesting/sophisticated than it was in older games, and as such they can’t afford to make anywhere near as much of it.

This is true, but then they don’t charge through the nose for it, and they tell you what you are getting in detail, and don’t destroy the content that came before.

HoT isn’t the same value as GW2—but that’s because GW2 is a huge steal and not because HoT is not worth it. By your own line of reasoning, you should never buy a normal single player video game, because they’ll never be worth as much as GW2 (GW2 has at least 200 hours of unique content in it, map comping, personal story, basic wvw/spvp before you’ve memorized everything, 9 classes etc…).

I’ve played plenty of single player games that have given me over 200 hours of fun before I’ve memorized it, for a start they come with different difficulty levels, so we don’t have to wait for “challenging” content.

Yeah that’s because the maps cycle. When dragonstand is on it’s set cooldown timer, virtually no one is there because nobody needs to be. But when that timer pops, LFG lights up with dozens of LFG posts taxing people into different instances. Sometimes these maps will be empty—but not for long. That’s the point of the metas and how they have down-time. I can consistently find 3-4 full maps of Dragon’s Stand in oceanic (deadest time of day) when it resets. Easily.

I’m so happy for you, but the fact that the maps are dead for any amount of time is a bad thing. Look at SW, there are plenty of things to be done while the map resets, this just shows how badly ANet dropped the ball. But hay, that want raids to be the new thing everyone dose, why else would they basically make the other instanced content not worth doing. Oh yeah, to dangle the carrot that is HoT to the people who didn’t buy it.

But I’m probably wasting my time, you seem to.be in the HoT is the best thing ever camp. Where I can see many thing need to be changed or improved for everyone, not just the Hard core LFG campers.

1. I don’t agree, I think it’s wrong in certain places (ie what is it, 600 cry ore for a set of runes of leadership, that’s ridiculous). Overall I feel the gating is very well done, but there are most definitely specific instances where it’s implemented poorly and those need addressed.

2. How does HoT restrict your options? You level up Maguuma mastery in Maguuma, WvW rank in WvW, SPvP in SPvP, Tyrian mastery in Tyria, and general leveling (1-80) in any of those. Of course to get HoT specific rewards, you play HoT. Just like to get dungeon specific armors you play dungeons, or to get PvP rank you play PvP and not fractals. I see no issue here.

3. I said users and critics though, I agree critics alone would be a bad way to judge, but I was also taking into account user reviews why are notoriously pessimistic. Despite the 100 or so 0/10 reviews on metacritic, HoT is still at 7.7 on user score and even many of the negative reviews will mention how much they like the maps just disliking things like hero point grind.

4. Yet virtually everything they announced about the expansion was feature additions, not content additions (in the sense that we’re distinguishing the two). Some of their earliest statements were them driving home the fact that one of the biggest things about this expansion is that it lays down the foundation for future content, with systems like guild halls, raids, and elite specializations.

On legendary weapons, the very first thing I can find announcing them specifically mentions:

It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game. Collections for the existing legendary weapons will be available on launch day, while the first three new legendaries will become available shortly after launch, alongside raids.

I understand some of the information can be missed, but ANet clearly implied that the set will be available to those who purchase HoT and that it will come after HoT launches alongside raids. Legendaries are a relatively small part of the expansion which is likely why less focus was put on this.

Honestly, all content in this game has been free up until this point. I mean, since it was stated early on the new legendaries would be tied to Maguuma, it should have been obvious that it would require the xpac but nothing else.

5. You’re right, my mistake. Still enough time known in advance, and yes possibly this info was released later to keep sales as high as possible… Like any company would do in the history of the world. You market the strong points but make sure folks are aware of the reality of the situation.

6. They’re not, but they are distinct armor sets, just like chaos weapons are each distinct from each other even if the same theme influenced their design.

7. Who cares how much time/effort it took? If they could design the best piece of equipment you’d ever seen in your life, but they did so in 5 seconds, would that invalidate said piece of equipment?

No, a skin is clearly something tied to the item itself. They probably made it a skin to sell more transmutation stones.

8. Depends. You can’t just paint everything in life with one broad stroke. Sure I wouldn’t want to get my car in pieces and bits. The way your analogy breaks down, as you highlight later, is that you do in fact get one full functioning product and THEN you get bits added onto that. It’s like buying a car, yes it’s pointless if I don’t get all the parts necessary for a car to work simultaneously, but what about the radio/speakers? I may want those immediately, but getting good speakers for your car often involves you purchasing them separately—it’s not feasible for you to get it all at once.

Simply put, they just can’t give us as much as we might want up front, given that they’re giving us so many features it’s astonishing (I’ve NEVER seen such a feature-dense expansion). Instead, the settled for a nice compromise, they can’t deliver the quantity of content some of us (irrationally, in my opinion) expect, so instead they deliver what they can with promise that they will continue to build on it in time. It’s a compromise, because life isn’t perfect and sometimes you trade one thing for another. In this case they traded initial quantity for quality and ability to produce greater quantity over time (by laying the foundations for many necessary systems).

Even if the legendaries existed, they probably didn’t feel comfortable implementing them until precursor crafting was introduced. We all know how many times they’ve said they wanted to do it much earlier but they couldn’t because they were struggling on HOW to do it.

On the analogy, yeah you can twist any analogy to be dis-analogous. The point of my analogy was to demonstrate that even if you expected a part for free, that doesn’t change the hard cash value of that part even if you don’t get it for free. The two are not in any way linked. The reason your twisting of my analogy fails is because you stretch it beyond the scope of how it can be analogous, you didn’t pay $50 for legendary weapons, you paid that for HoT (which includes them). Thus your re-telling of my analogy makes no sense, and hopefully my original analogy still demonstrates my point that the value of something is it’s value regardless of your personal expectations.

2. Because i can only level up through open world events -and generally just the open world. If I want dungeon armor I can do dungeons or I can do Pvp Tracks.

3. I believe most players that are unhappy with the game are casuals – and casual players are usually too casual to bother with reviews and whatnot. That does not mean that they’re happy with it. I guess we’ll never know but I’m sure Anet has metrics for this sort of stuff.

4.I understand what you’re saying – I can’t really agree with it – Legendary weapons are the ultimate end-goal of this game – same with legendary armor.
There is nothing harder or more prestigious in the game right now. The sum of most player efforts who are grinding the jungle are masteries – because masteries mean raids and raids means legendary armor.

I understand gating the mastery xp behind buying HoT but honestly – if someone prefers to do WvW or PvP they should have the option to level their masteries through those – maybe not as effectively as in the jungle – but still.
The core game gave you the choice of where you wanted to level up.
Just because I want masteries doesn’t mean I want to stay in the jungle 24/7 and only get them that way.

7. Depending on how much of a price they put on it and depending on how much they claim it took to develop to justify that price.
I would pay 40$ for a well crafted item that took let’s say a few weeks to get done – because I feel it should reward the person who did it decently.

I doubt I would pay 40$ if it had taken them 10 minutes because it would be overpriced compared to the effort of making it. Depends on the item – but you get my point.

My point is taking content you already had and were already planning to release to players only to delay it so you can fit it into an expansion and use said content as selling points is a bad move in my book.

8. Again – your views differ from mine but I prefer to get all my stuff at once. I don’t like the season pass business and honestly I feel that all the stuff should have come with the expansion.

I also feel that they gave up on a philosophy they had pushed for a long time – the “when it’s ready” mentality – I would have preferred to wait a few more months, even half a year – but get everything at once rather than have some stuff and then other stuff brought later.

It just seems very unprofessional to do the “when it’s ready” deal for a long time then bring us a rushed expansion with core features not even complete.

9. I understand what you said about the analogy – but did you see the post where they specifically said 2013? And not just legendaries – some crafting to 500, precursor crafting and much more stuff.

The point I’m making is this – they’ve said for example that future living world updates will be coming after HoT for people who purchased HoT.

How would you feel if those updates then never came and found their way into the next big expansion as a core selling point? Or Raids – how would you feel if raids – although partially ready were cut from HoT and instead given to us 1-2 years later with a new expansion.

That’s how I feel about the 2013 legendary deal. They had something – didn’t put it in only to use as a selling point later. It was originally supposed to be part of the Core game but ended up being tacked onto HoT.

Ayrilana.1396:

Five sets:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_art

If you count what each profession wears as a different set then that 41 sets. This corresponds to what was advertised.

What you’re completely missing is how they got to that 41 and how you’re unfairly not doing the same for the new armor sets from HoT. Let’s look at the HoT armor sets.

You have the bladed armor, leyline armor, and legendary armor. There’s three armor weights so that multiplies it out to 9 potential sets. But wait! Let’s not forget that it differs by race too. With 5 races, that comes out to 45 armor sets. That’s even more than EotN! That’s even on top of the HoT armor being much more detailed and complicated to develop over EotN armor.

Exactly this. people love to fixate on pure numbers without considering the whole picture not sure why. Is value for money simply judged in quantity? If you buy 100 rocks for $1000 is that more value for money then buying 10 diamonds for $1000 simply because you get 10 times the quantity? Quantity alone isnt enough of a criteria.

You want to consider value for money? why not keep it simple. in 2009 Arenanet had 163 employees: http://www.giantbomb.com/arenanet-inc/3010-306/

They probably had less in 2006 when they started work on EOTN but lets ignore that for the sake of simplicity. So essentially EoTN cost Anet the wages of 163 people for about 1 year give or take some other expenses which we dont know about.

for HoT Anet had 350 employees: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-14-you-thought-that-was-it-for-guild-wars-2 and took at least 2 years of work to produce. In this same article they reference working 2 big projects that we never accounted for, most likely they were stuff that went into the expansion. Adding all that up. all things being equal HoT roughly cost Arenanet 4 times as much as EoTN to produce yet they didnt charge us 4 times the price did they? they charged us only $10 more. hows that for value for money?

So how does HoT compare to EoTN in terms of value? Its way better and that saying something since EoTN was great. Everything has been improved across the board, maps arent flat now, they have verticality that you cant imagine, it needs to be experienced. Environments are also way more detailed. Same thing for mobs. Animations are so much better and the models are a lot more detailed. etc.. etc..

The less armor and content issue is one of my favorites tbh. Once upon a time anet made their money by creating and selling large blocks of rewardingly replayable content with short production times.

Had they spent more effort and design on ensuring they could continue that model, we probably wouldn’t have the issues of small content, grind, and unsatisfying rewards that we do now as all of that is a result of their reliance on gems for revenue. I wish I could have seen that GW2.

risa.1382:

The less armor and content issue is one of my favorites tbh. Once upon a time anet made their money by creating and selling large blocks of rewardingly replayable content with short production times.

Had they spent more effort and design on ensuring they could continue that model, we probably wouldn’t have the issues of small content, grind, and unsatisfying rewards that we do now as all of that is a result of their reliance on gems for revenue. I wish I could have seen that GW2.

So if they did like what the did with LS2 except not give it out for free during the first two or so weeks?

risa.1382:

The less armor and content issue is one of my favorites tbh. Once upon a time anet made their money by creating and selling large blocks of rewardingly replayable content with short production times.

Had they spent more effort and design on ensuring they could continue that model, we probably wouldn’t have the issues of small content, grind, and unsatisfying rewards that we do now as all of that is a result of their reliance on gems for revenue. I wish I could have seen that GW2.

way to over simplified. There are issues upon issues upon issues you’re not considering.

Short production time isnt magical. It came from a number of factors.

1: maps tied to a simple horizontal plane.
2: simplistic map design
3: low detailed models
etc…

Sure they could have kept the same model but in order to do that they’d have to sacrifice the awesome artistic vision they had for Gw2. What would the end result be? do you really think a game that looks like Gw1 now a days has any chance to be as successful as Gw2? sure some people might not care about graphics but the vast majority does. No gaming company switched to high graphic fidelity just because they love to spend a truckload of money. There is a lot of completion out there and the vast majority of people will pick the best looking games.

You make it sound like Arenanet actually cut costs since the time of Gw1 when in fact they doubled their workforce.

People love to assume the cash shop pushes the design agenda. Yet perhaps people should also consider the opposite. We dont know how much HoT will sell but lets assume it sells to 50% of the Gw2 comunity for arguments sake. thats 2.5m copies at at least $50 each which makes 125M. If they were able to issue an expansion every year dont you think they would do it? its not like the gem store is generating more money than that! on average it does what $80M per year? How about this scenario? The “push” on the gemshop is there to sustain income in between expansion development because expansions take to long to develop. And just in case I put “push” in quotes simply because as cash shops go this is one of the least pushy I have ever seen.

Soaring glide is HoT equivalence to EoTN’s heroic treks which is representative of GW1 heroic journeys. To get that feel, Hot has masteries and experience barriers. These are tangential abstracts unrelated to the soaring glide mechanic but nevertheless were gated as such. On the hand, heroic treks in EoTN and in GW1 heroic journeys, there are no abstract barriers. In the sense of character levels and gated abstractions. In EoTN and GW1 heroic treks and heroic journeys can be made starting from the lowest character levels. Success of these attempts are apparently dependent on the player’s skill and luck.

For example one memorable journey is the heroic trek from Ascalon City to Lion’s Arch when way points were not available. This is especially so for new characters at level 1. With out using way points this walk can take well over 12 hours irl and usually the norm is taking a day straight (edit: 24) for players.

Another exceptional epic heroic journey is the walk from Ascalon City to Droknar’s Forge by way of Snake Dance. This one take close to 48 hours, an 2 days straight adventure. Again the success of which is solely dependent on the players skills at fighting, trekking, and luck. Because of the instancing mechanic a lost meant being sent back to Ascalon City as the instancing meant no saving in between. Either you make it or you don’t in one long continuous around the clock instance.

I found the HoT equivalence to EoTN (GW1) is not comparable. Edit: I can walk from Silver Waste to Dragon’s Stand in under 6 or 7 hours.

Heart of Thorns is the lowest point in Guild Wars.

Arius.7031:

I don’t think the comparison can be made like this and be fair. The two expansion’s had completely different philosophy that can be summed up as: Heart of Thorns is primarily a feature expansion, EotN is primarily a content expansion.

Heart of thorns adds many, many mechanics and concepts to the game that affect it overall and provide a very good base for building additional content in the future.

Eye of the North added a good deal of content onto the already existing game—but very little in the way of actual new features.

So why don’t we compare the FEATURE additions to EotN’s FEATURE additions (and not their content) and see how each 1 comes out?

Heart of Thorns
-Raids
-Elite Specializations
-New class (Revenant)
-Masteries
-Gliding (part of masteries but so substantial that I felt it merited it’s own mention)
-Guild Halls
-Guild Rework (completely different/new guild missions system, new way for advancing guild, new ways of guild chatting etc…)
-Raid UI
-Map Contribution mechanic & accompanying UI
-Precursor Crafting
-Legendary Armor/Back pieces

Eye of the North
-Hall of Monuments

Raids are content, essentially a version of the dungeon concept. More complex perhaps. More difficult perhaps, but still essentially an extension of something that already exists.

Elite specializations are trait lines….such as every class already has.

It is nice to see Guild Halls added.

Yep, listing masteries twice does make the list longer.

Fixing problems with guilds may be a feature, I guess.

Listing elements of Raids, such as the UI, twice does make the list look longer.

Not sure that adding a new way to get something that has existed since launch, a way promised to be delivered two years ago, really counts as a feature. If it does then being able to get drops from mobs on new maps would be a new feature for both expansions.

Not sure that new gear, something that existed in both expansions, counts as a game feature.

Celtus.8456:

Heart of Thorns is the lowest point in Guild Wars.

Actually, the jumping puzzle in the Silverwastes is the lowest point in Guild Wars. Did you try and jump down there? It’s so deep!

Gendou.9620:

You are comparing apples and oranges bro; both of these games are entirely different concepts of content where one is dynamically always active and one is completely instanced(making content much easier to create in large quantities). Anet already stated they wanted a living world, but people seem to think this is some easy task…. This isnt some WoW map with stationary npcs and flat terrain that a team can just regurgitate out. Yeah places like southsun cove were thrown out, but these maps are built around huge meta events and are much larger on an XYZ scale(even if people can’t wrap their head around this concept due to two dimensional map views).

It’s a valid comparison, and has been done plenty of times before. Anet set the bar high with Guild Wars and it’s accompanying stand-alone campaigns and Eye of the North expansion. GW2 hasn’t reached that level, and may never. Eye of the North was a great expansion, however we can’t dwell in the past. Heart of Thorns is what we have, take it or leave it.

Ashen.2907:

Arius.7031:

I don’t think the comparison can be made like this and be fair. The two expansion’s had completely different philosophy that can be summed up as: Heart of Thorns is primarily a feature expansion, EotN is primarily a content expansion.

Heart of thorns adds many, many mechanics and concepts to the game that affect it overall and provide a very good base for building additional content in the future.

Eye of the North added a good deal of content onto the already existing game—but very little in the way of actual new features.

So why don’t we compare the FEATURE additions to EotN’s FEATURE additions (and not their content) and see how each 1 comes out?

Heart of Thorns
-Raids
-Elite Specializations
-New class (Revenant)
-Masteries
-Gliding (part of masteries but so substantial that I felt it merited it’s own mention)
-Guild Halls
-Guild Rework (completely different/new guild missions system, new way for advancing guild, new ways of guild chatting etc…)
-Raid UI
-Map Contribution mechanic & accompanying UI
-Precursor Crafting
-Legendary Armor/Back pieces

Eye of the North
-Hall of Monuments

Raids are content, essentially a version of the dungeon concept. More complex perhaps. More difficult perhaps, but still essentially an extension of something that already exists.

Elite specializations are trait lines….such as every class already has.

It is nice to see Guild Halls added.

Yep, listing masteries twice does make the list longer.

Fixing problems with guilds may be a feature, I guess.

Listing elements of Raids, such as the UI, twice does make the list look longer.

Not sure that adding a new way to get something that has existed since launch, a way promised to be delivered two years ago, really counts as a feature. If it does then being able to get drops from mobs on new maps would be a new feature for both expansions.

Not sure that new gear, something that existed in both expansions, counts as a game feature.

And here lies the issue.. I dont know why but people love to belittle what is a tremendous amount of work. You said “Not sure that adding a new way to get something that has existed since launch, a way promised to be delivered two years ago, really counts as a feature”. I am specifically focusing on Precursor crafting simply because its probably the one thing in this expansion that we know how much work was involved in developing. Things dont come out of the ether… well mists this being Gw2…. Its not like someone hit a button and suddenly you had a collection to get precursors… some one had to come up with a backstory for each weapon, items were picked that fit that narrative, models were created to support each weapon construction stage. Icons have to be created, etc… The amount of work to put just a single precursor in that feature which you’re suggesting we just should simply ignore is 1 month… thats not an assumption thats a fact stated by arenanet themselves in one of their broadcast pre HoT launch. Essentially that entire feature took 2 years of work. 2 years…

Essentially that one feature “that apparently shouldnt count” took at least twice as much work as any feature EoTN had.

Same thing with Raids.. yeah sure Raids are essentially like other content but what about the underlying systems that support raids? the new expanded party system to mention an obvious one. Then you’ll like have new systems developed to support the mechanics that are needed to make a raid interesting. etc.. All these things take work and thus time to develop… Its a lot easier to make a lot of the same then it is to make new things that work in a new way.

Like I sure the old precursor system didnt take a whole month of work… for one it was 1 model not 4. secondly there was no backstory / items to consider. no need to create collections etc.. think how many new precursors they could have created using the old system rather then new.

These things matter!

Galen Grey.4709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Five sets:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_art

If you count what each profession wears as a different set then that 41 sets. This corresponds to what was advertised.

What you’re completely missing is how they got to that 41 and how you’re unfairly not doing the same for the new armor sets from HoT. Let’s look at the HoT armor sets.

You have the bladed armor, leyline armor, and legendary armor. There’s three armor weights so that multiplies it out to 9 potential sets. But wait! Let’s not forget that it differs by race too. With 5 races, that comes out to 45 armor sets. That’s even more than EotN! That’s even on top of the HoT armor being much more detailed and complicated to develop over EotN armor.

Exactly this. people love to fixate on pure numbers without considering the whole picture not sure why. Is value for money simply judged in quantity? If you buy 100 rocks for $1000 is that more value for money then buying 10 diamonds for $1000 simply because you get 10 times the quantity? Quantity alone isnt enough of a criteria.

You want to consider value for money? why not keep it simple. in 2009 Arenanet had 163 employees: http://www.giantbomb.com/arenanet-inc/3010-306/

They probably had less in 2006 when they started work on EOTN but lets ignore that for the sake of simplicity. So essentially EoTN cost Anet the wages of 163 people for about 1 year give or take some other expenses which we dont know about.

for HoT Anet had 350 employees: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-01-14-you-thought-that-was-it-for-guild-wars-2 and took at least 2 years of work to produce. In this same article they reference working 2 big projects that we never accounted for, most likely they were stuff that went into the expansion. Adding all that up. all things being equal HoT roughly cost Arenanet 4 times as much as EoTN to produce yet they didnt charge us 4 times the price did they? they charged us only $10 more. hows that for value for money?

So how does HoT compare to EoTN in terms of value? Its way better and that saying something since EoTN was great. Everything has been improved across the board, maps arent flat now, they have verticality that you cant imagine, it needs to be experienced. Environments are also way more detailed. Same thing for mobs. Animations are so much better and the models are a lot more detailed. etc.. etc..

Quantity alone is not a criteria but you whole point revolves around a difference between rocks and diamonds – I’ll ask you now – is the difference between the new HoT sets and the old core GW2 sets so big?
Are the sets we got with HoT really that amazing that they’re worth more and are more “awesome” than old sets?

All the numbers you’re throwing out are also real for the Core game – so the proportions between how many “sets” the core game launched with vs how many HoT launched with remain the same – because the more things you take into consideration the more things you have to consider for the core game as well.

It was underwhelming in this regard – and it would’ve been ok if they really didn’t have time to do it – but given the uninterrupted flow of Black Lion weapon skins and gem store costumes it’s clear that they could if they wanted to have diverted more development resources towards this – but that was not the case.

Einlanzer.1627:

Vayne.8563:

I’d take the four maps I got with HoT over all the maps in EotN any day. The complexity of these maps is astounding.

Don’t get me wrong, I loved Eye of the North. But then, we haven’t seen raids yet, and Eye of the North didn’t have expansion content coming in reguilarly either. We have to see what the new content delivery cadence is. Also EotN offered nothing at all for PvP.

I think it’s okay to do a little of both. I sort of hope the next expansion/set of maps we get goes in a different direction – specifically – reduced complexity and greater quantity.

It seems to be a common mantra that quality > quantity, and that was a major design goal for GW2, but I’ve long argued that you really need a bit of both and should strive to find a middle ground.

What does quantity get you over quality? What would you pick if you had to sacrifice one or the other. Good old devil’s advocate, but what if this was the middle ground? :P

Harper.4173:

Quantity alone is not a criteria but you whole point revolves around a difference between rocks and diamonds – I’ll ask you now – is the difference between the new HoT sets and the old core GW2 sets so big?
Are the sets we got with HoT really that amazing that they’re worth more and are more “awesome” than old sets?

All the numbers you’re throwing out are also real for the Core game – so the proportions between how many “sets” the core game launched with vs how many HoT launched with remain the same – because the more things you take into consideration the more things you have to consider for the core game as well.

It was underwhelming in this regard – and it would’ve been ok if they really didn’t have time to do it – but given the uninterrupted flow of Black Lion weapon skins and gem store costumes it’s clear that they could if they wanted to have diverted more development resources towards this – but that was not the case.

No my point isnt the difference between rocks and diamonds, rocks and diamonds was just an example one picked for a stark contrast by no means am I suggesting EoTN is a rock and that HoT is a diamond. the whole point is there is more then quantity involved.

The core game had 5 years to develop their sets, HoT had like 2 ofcourse you’re going to get less. Then you have resource allocation to consider.. launching a game is different then launching an expansion, Things like armor sets have diminishing returns for a company why? because essentially you only need 1 set in most cases for 1 character. Core game needed armor sets because they were a core need (you need armor skins to dress your characters in) Expansions produce armor sets in terms of rewards not in terms of need. Same thing happens if you compare EoTN armor sets with prophecies armor sets. That being said its also important to consider that Gw2 releases sets in between expansion. since launch and before the release of HoT we got what? 7 new sets, same thing will likely happen in HoT like for starters we know we’re getting Legendary armor we’re not counting those here.

No, whats true for HoT isnt necessary true for the core game. Maps in HoT take a lot more work to create then they take in Core for example. Same goes with legendary weapons because of the new precursor crafting system. We havent yet seen the new Legendary armor but good chance it takes a lot more work to create a legendary armor set then it does to create a regular armor set. MMOs evolve and Arenanet unlike other MMOs love to expand and improve their systems with the negative impact that in doing so they generally raise their work load exponentially. Number have to be considered in that context as well. Like for example, in the core game they created 20 precursors. Back then though create a new precursor didnt involve creating 4 models and a huge collection quest with it. Naturally it takes more time now.

chances are stuff they put into the black lion shop has 0 impact on the core game. the Gem shop is a source of income hence they probably hire dedicated teams for it. (my theory they never said this) but either case you’re mentioning weaponsets here and its not like HoT is lacking in weapon sets. We got 9 sets not counting unique drops and the new precursor models.. hardly lacking.

Let’s tackle the easy ones first

New Skills
EotN added 150 new skills (100 profession skills and 50 pve-only skills)

Before counting skills in GW2, I must say that they work in a different way than skills in GW1. There are no “chain” skills that take different slots, but they are grouped in actual chains, this means chain skills will have to be counted twice (or more), there are also no long lasting buffs, instead we get Traits, so traits can easily count as GW1 “skills”. Because some of you might be weird I give two versions, one counts only unique buttons, the other counts all skills in the game.

Berserker: 18 / 30
Chronomancer: 9 / 23
Daredevil: 11 / 33
Dragonhunter: 14 / 26
Druid: 17 / 36 /
Reaper: 17 / 35
Scrapper: 12 / 38
Tempest: 18 / 30
Revenant: 62 / 155
Ranger pets: 4 / 12 (8 new pet skills, not F2 skills)
Total: 182 / 418

Just the Revenant alone gives more skills than the Entire EotN, but if you want only unique button presses (which is horribly wrong) HoT provides 182 skills compared to 150 EotN skills.

There are also 36 Mastery points which can change your gameplay and provide new skill-like abilities or other benefits.

So in terms of skills and character customization HoT provides loads of more options than EotN that it’s not even funny to compare the two in that regard.

Another easy one to compare is primary/story quests

New story quests
EotN added 24 Story quests (Primary) compared to 16 Story Quests in HoT.
But HoT “quests” have more replay value as far as story goes, including unique dialogue for Sylvari characters, branching points where you make choices and see different paths and Achievements that require multiple playthroughs to acquire.

Now is that extra value “worth” 8 story quests? The answer will depend on the individual as there is no objective answer here.

Next step is exploration.

Map Exploration
EotN adds 4 new regions which include 13 towns/outpots, 33 landmarks, 18 dungeon entrances and 11 mission entrances for a total of 75 items to explore/find.

HoT adds the following on maps:
VB: 7 Waypoints, 26 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 5 Vistas
AB: 7 Waypoints, 22 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 6 Vistas
TD: 7 Waypoints, 20 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 6 Vistas
DS: 11 Waypoints, 24 Points of Interest, 7 Hero Challenges, 7 Vistas
Total: 195, just the Points of Interest alone (92) are more than what you can find in the entire EotN.

Also, there are 15 Strongboxes to find, 2 Dive Master achievements, 23 Mastery Insights and 3 Jumping Puzzles (at least I know of 3 there might be more) for a total of 43 more things to do while exploring HoT. There are also other achievements to do but I will keep those for another point of comparison.

So the difference in exploration is staggering… HoT is much better for explorers than EotN, many more things to find and do there, although it has less zones in number.

Xillllix.3485:

It’s been a ongoing issue with this game: They put their energy in a PvE Living Story extension (which is nice but temporary) instead of making endgame content (which is repeatable).

Result is we get only 1 pvp map, no dungeons, no new fractals, delayed raids, and a substantial (and potentially amazing) over-designed WvW map that has been rushed out in an outdated server system.

Guild halls are nice, but only as a place to go between endgame content challenges which are missing.

So, 2-3 weeks after the expansion for me it’s back to GvGs, in Gilded Hollow now instead of Obsidian Sanctum. That’s the only difference.

They need to come out with more repeatable content updates and SAB world 3

The ongoing issue is that you and people who enjoy your play style repeat the end game content endlessly and a large percentage of the population never touches it. That’s the ongoing problem. If Anet gives you stuff to do, I don’t get enough to do. If they give me stuff to do, you don’t get enough to do.

It’s time people started realized that generalizations like this only apply to a percentage of the player base. It would be interested to find out how much of a percentage, but I’m guessing most people think more people play their way than actually do.

I think the only comparison that could possibly matter between EotN, and HoT, is whether you are enjoying the HoT expansion, as much as you did the EotN expansion.

Technology has changed. Graphics have changed. Engines (arguably) have changed. Data transmission has increased. Computers have grown. Yes, HoT should darned well be prettier, and have more dynamics, and phys-x, than EotN. No brainer there.

IMHO, Eye of the North was a true expansion on the existing GW game. People who already enjoyed the game had no reason not to continue to love that true expansion of the game. I absolutely did. IMHO, HoT is closer to an incomplete GW3 than it is an expansion pack of any sort, as almost everything has changed. Professions changed, Guild earnings changed, Skills changed, Landscapes changed. Countless new different forms of currency, and overhauled merit systems, etc.. Everything, about everything, has changed about GW2, with HoT. The old core and the new, not just the new.

Rhetoric, such as, how many employees they have now, and how they have grown, is pure irrelevant metaphysical drivel. So what? …5 million copies (I read that somewhere) of HoT sold so far @ an average of $65 (??) = $325 million dollars income. That’s almost a million dollars a year per employee for their efforts using those metrics, if you were to divide it up. But, that isn’t how it works. Nor, is the economics any measure of the expansion game. No bearing whatsoever on any comparison. (Although, you might indeed think it would at least tip the scales hugely in it’s favor, even with ball park numbers).

The question by the OP remains…

Personally, I enjoyed EotN immensely, as a true expansion to the GW game, which I truly loved at the time. And, I played the heck out of EotN enthusiastically for a very long time. And then yearned for more. What more needs to be said?

By comparison, to be able to cast a realistic vote, I’d have to ask myself; what have I done with the current game since HoT was released 3 weeks ago? Can I say the same, or better?

Since launch, …I’ve spent my in game savings from previous gaming time, and made another legendary. Marveled at the new HoT landscapes, while enjoying my new gliding skills, whenever I am actually high enough on the map to use them, and can figure out where I actually need to go, without getting killed first, while examining the 4 layer map, and actually getting there in a few hours, or less. Cursed the gorgeous new landscapes repeatedly, as seemingly unsustainable meta messes, in which I can’t really explore past the dead ended gates, nor, succeed in, without a zerg and a meta. Done quite a few meta events, repeatedly, just to open the map, only to suddenly wind up in an underpopulated map, and had to move maps yet again. Often frustrated, and unable to accomplish anything I really hoped to do there.

I’ve burned through the story content, which, I truly enjoyed while it lasted, in only a few days. (Except for the last episode, which remains too bugged to bother with.) So be it, but the story part is already at it’s end for the expansion. Nothing more to say there.

I have watched a beloved WvW essentially lose 3/4 of it’s playable maps, and many of it’s players, as the new, and genuinely pretty, boarder lands immediately became no place that any experienced WvW player really wants to be in. I suddenly lost interest in EBG as well, because, I realized that so many of the things I enjoyed doing in WvW were suddenly obsolete with HoT, and aren’t even re-obtainable as a goal. …Thus, I’ve spent probably an honest10 hours since the HoT release 3 weeks ago, playing WvW. As a hard core high ranking WvW addict, this is nothing but sad, to me. (The exact opposite of the consecutive all-night battles that I envisioned it would be.) Much of what I liked to do there, simply vanished with a download, and the core game play has changed, and somehow became something that is not nearly as enjoyable to me anymore.

Since HoT release, I have done absolutely nothing at all, zero, with my small guild of 9. As I discovered that small guilds have been written out of the script, and they can’t really earn anything at all like they could before (As little as it may have been, it was something, and it was enjoyable for us to earn those little somethings that were important to, us and often to my WvW game play). I’ve realized that even if we do call on our other guild friends to help get a guild hall open, we can’t do anything with it, nor, really earn anything anymore anyway, so, why bother? I realized it is useless content outside of our secondary guilds. Since HoT, I’ve also found all the things we HAD EARNED, have actually been stripped from us, and taken away, and, as minimal as they were, we simply can’t enjoy them anymore. Which I am not enjoying. I’ve since conceded to the reality that most of my real core guildies may never really come back afterall, as they still refuse to pay money for old story content they missed, and are luke warm about re-learning the “all new” game all over again.

Since release, I have built my 9th character profession. A Revenant. And instantly leveled it up to level 80. using just one of my 20 plus leveling starters in my bank, and by using 50 of the 200, or so, instant level scrolls that were stacked up, from former game play. Not sure what I want to do with the character now though. But it wasn’t very exciting leveling it up that way. But, playing the 3 year old content to level it up was the only other option, as the new HoT “expansion” content offers no place to level up a new character with new content, as it is only hard core end game content, not really an expansion of the full game. Leaving leveling of the all new characters completely stale. It was, thus, not terribly stimulating game play for me, gaining the new character class.

I’ve read a lot of forums that I didn’t read too much of before.

I’ve gotten to play the game with my son again for a few days, as he happily rejoined. Though he has sadly re-quit again when his story line ended in a few hours.

…That’s the only way I know how to accurately measure, and make a comparison of the two expansions. EotN was a great, complete, and true expansion. A continuation of the game we loved. And, I loved it, and I enjoyed playing it for many, many, hours on end.

HoT is leaving me lost in visual stunningville. While, leaving me dabbling in old content. Frustrated with the loss of enjoyable things that were taken away and/or completely changed beyond likability. I’m unexpectedly finding the expansion disheartening. We can glide now. It’s beautifully landscaped by truly amazing and talented 3D computer artists. But, to me, It feels more, and more, like I’m starting the entire game over, with a very incomplete version of GW3. And, in contrast to the day before the release, I’m honestly not really enjoying much of it at all now. Because, not just the new content, but, the original content, and core game mechanics, metrics, and reward systems, et al.. were completely, and utterly, upended as well. Not just the new game changed, the old changed immensely as well. So, IMO,considering just the observed facts of the post expansion game play. Which was a better expansion measured by pure satisfaction and enjoyment that came out of them both?

EotN, by a landslide.

HoT has so many merits, advancements, and some truly amazing stuff. But, overall, has somehow completely train wrecked the entire core I loved in many ways IMO. Wait and see, and hope for the best… No comparison.

Ashen.2907:

Raids are content, essentially a version of the dungeon concept. More complex perhaps. More difficult perhaps, but still essentially an extension of something that already exists.

Elite specializations are trait lines….such as every class already has.

It is nice to see Guild Halls added.

Yep, listing masteries twice does make the list longer.

Fixing problems with guilds may be a feature, I guess.

Listing elements of Raids, such as the UI, twice does make the list look longer.

Not sure that adding a new way to get something that has existed since launch, a way promised to be delivered two years ago, really counts as a feature. If it does then being able to get drops from mobs on new maps would be a new feature for both expansions.

Not sure that new gear, something that existed in both expansions, counts as a game feature.

Raids include content, but the technology and game-type of raids did not exist prior to this feature. Previously you could not have 10 man (or 50 man as it is now) groups, now you can. Raids are a feature, Spirit Vale itself is content.

Elite specializations are NOT just a traitline, they come with a weapon, set of utilities, an elite, and a healing skill as well as a unique class mechanic (IE celestial form for druid, or 3 dodges for daredevil). They are in no way just a trait line rofl.

I didn’t list masteries twice, I listed a particular mastery which was so big that it merited it’s own mention. Gliding opens up so much for the game that it is worth mentioning separately from the mastery system as a whole.

Guilds didn’t have that many problems, and they didn’t just fix problems. They added features like being able to chat with guilds you’re not repping, adding guild missions for every game-mode instead of just PvE, enhancing the way guilds progress etc…

Except when I say “raid ui” I mean the UI that isn’t just for raids but is utilized in raids, the “raid ui” (meaning SQUAD UI) can be used in WvW and open world as well. It’s not part of raids, they’re completely separate, raids just also utilize this ui.

Precursor crafting, of course it counts as a new feature, no matter how long it has taken to make it or how long it should have been in the game… Also it’s not just for old precursors, it’ll work for new precursors as well, so it’s not just for old content (even if it were, that wouldn’t matter). Yes, it’s a new feature, and a huge one at that.

New types of gear, there was no such thing as legendary armor/backpacks earlier. It may technically be armor, but it’s a feature to have a whole new category of armor (not just a new set of armor, an entirely new category for it altogether, like ascended armor was a feature).

@Harper

2. Okay, but surely you realize it’s unreasonable to assume ANet will build an alternate method to get every single thing in the entire game? Also dungeon armors sure, but not fractal back pieces or fractal weapons for example. There are many unique skins tied to unique activities in the game.

3. I suppose we may never know for certain, I just go by the best evidence we have available.

4. Why would someone want masteries for maguuma if they don’t even want to do maguuma content though? The thing is raids will only require some of the absolute most basic masteries, in fact the hardest one I know of to get is the mushroom speed mastery which isn’t hard at all. The masteries are built to only help you in Maguuma, if you don’t want to play in Maguum, why get the masteries?

That said I’m not entirely opposed to an alternate method to supplement your mastery growth by, say, a maguuma reward track that gives some xp pot at the end or something. But I still maintain that masteries should force you generally to play in those specific areas to get them. Gliding masteries don’t make you glide to get them, all you have to do is xp-worthy stuff in Maguuma (daily adventures, personal story, meta events, mob grind etc…). Think to legendaries in the base game, they require you do all types of content (except PvP I believe) to get them. You can’t get the gift of battle from PvE, you can’t get map completion from WvW. You have to do all kinds of required content. This isn’t a new concept to GW2.

7. I think it’s worth isn’t at all determined by how much time it took them to develop, but rather how much you personally desire it. Content should be judged, I think, on it’s own merit, the time it took to develop doesn’t seem to be relevant to me.

What content do you think they removed or saved to release as part of an xpac, in specific? Not clear on this atm.

8. I understand having a different preference, I’m just saying that expecting as much content as you did while also expecting it the day the xpac released might not have been feasible for anet. In other words, they had no choice but to do it this way. To each their own, though. Personally I like having promise of loads of future content as well as a big amount of it up front.

And the thing is, for all we know they plan on doing another 2 years of content before going into the next xpac (if there even will be another xpac). We don’t know how they’re structured, it might not have been possible to give us all the content in 6 months (in fact I expect it wasn’t and it probably would have made the entire venture not profitable for them).

9. Alright, but I paid for that content whereas that other stuff was free post gw2 launch, it wasn’t really part of the packaging. We didn’t know we’d be getting precursor crafting when we bought gw2, it wasn’t told to us beforehand (as far as I know). Yes, it would be a huge jerk move for them to remove the living world and place it behind the next xpac, but for different reasons.

I understand fully being upset about not getting what was promised. I was too. But fundamentally I was upset because they said it would come out and it didn’t, not because they owed it to me.

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

I took this from the Eye of the North website:-

The expansion introduces:
41 new armor sets, including rare, stand-alone pieces
100 new profession-specific skills (10 per profession, none of which are elite)
50 new PvE only skills including 3 elite skills
10 new heroes
18 Dungeons
124 new quests
The Hall of Monuments, a place which allows you to obtain unique titles, companions, weapons, armor, and miniatures in Guild Wars 2 based on your achievements in the original Guild Wars.
More than the previous campaigns, Eye of the North is full of easter eggs and “hidden” quests, which are not immediately accessible.

For those who may not know, Eye of the North was the only expansion Anet released during GW1, the other releases were separate campaigns within the same world.

I’ve not delved too deeply into HoT so far but for those that have, how does what we bought compare to the previous expansion in terms of content and value for money?

EoTN cos about 60.000.000$ to make,HoT price was about 250.000.000$

Guild Wars 2 is made pure for money milking.Guild Wars was made out of love.

Problem isn’t the lack of armors or skins, it’s that we paid 50$ for an expansion without any dungeons/raids or any group instanced repeatable content.

The 3 new zones are nice (the artistic work is always beautiful at Anet), but WvW is a mess because the servers can’t support the new map and PvP has only 1 new map and skills/classes are completely unbalanced.

It really feels like HoT wasn’t finished and we’ve got only the first half.

Werdx.2059:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

I took this from the Eye of the North website:-

The expansion introduces:
41 new armor sets, including rare, stand-alone pieces
100 new profession-specific skills (10 per profession, none of which are elite)
50 new PvE only skills including 3 elite skills
10 new heroes
18 Dungeons
124 new quests
The Hall of Monuments, a place which allows you to obtain unique titles, companions, weapons, armor, and miniatures in Guild Wars 2 based on your achievements in the original Guild Wars.
More than the previous campaigns, Eye of the North is full of easter eggs and “hidden” quests, which are not immediately accessible.

For those who may not know, Eye of the North was the only expansion Anet released during GW1, the other releases were separate campaigns within the same world.

I’ve not delved too deeply into HoT so far but for those that have, how does what we bought compare to the previous expansion in terms of content and value for money?

EoTN cos about 60.000.000$ to make,HoT price was about 250.000.000$

Guild Wars 2 is made pure for money milking.Guild Wars was made out of love.

not exactly sure how your math works but shouldnt it be the other way round? when you make something out of love you’re willing to invest more in it so generally what ends up costing more is considered more of work of love then something that cost less to make.

Dont really personally agree that cost is any indication of love but if it were I’d say the highest cost is the best example of love.

Galen Grey.4709:

Werdx.2059:

Spirited Was Eceni.3869:

I took this from the Eye of the North website:-

The expansion introduces:
41 new armor sets, including rare, stand-alone pieces
100 new profession-specific skills (10 per profession, none of which are elite)
50 new PvE only skills including 3 elite skills
10 new heroes
18 Dungeons
124 new quests
The Hall of Monuments, a place which allows you to obtain unique titles, companions, weapons, armor, and miniatures in Guild Wars 2 based on your achievements in the original Guild Wars.
More than the previous campaigns, Eye of the North is full of easter eggs and “hidden” quests, which are not immediately accessible.

For those who may not know, Eye of the North was the only expansion Anet released during GW1, the other releases were separate campaigns within the same world.

I’ve not delved too deeply into HoT so far but for those that have, how does what we bought compare to the previous expansion in terms of content and value for money?

EoTN cos about 60.000.000$ to make,HoT price was about 250.000.000$

Guild Wars 2 is made pure for money milking.Guild Wars was made out of love.

not exactly sure how your math works but shouldnt it be the other way round? when you make something out of love you’re willing to invest more in it so generally what ends up costing more is considered more of work of love then something that cost less to make.

Dont really personally agree that cost is any indication of love but if it were I’d say the highest cost is the best example of love.

Other way around – we’re pushed to put love into the game (so if we don’t love it, we can’t get much out of it). The post was that Guild Wars was made out of love (by the devs); Guild Wars 2 is a money sink. Gotta agree on this. I love the Guild Wars world, lore, and setting(s), but GW2 throws so many more purchases at us than world and lore it delivers.

Anybody remember the old hard mode map gameplay from GW1? Made us go back over old maps and explore them from top to bottom eliminating foes and giving quite decent rewards and neat titles. It was nice that exploration was encouraged by the gameplay. “Been there, done that” was a dull title in my opinion. Too much of a negative tone to the title… made me think my character had become as bored of exploration as the devs have.

It sounded like a tangent, but it’s an example of the love Guild Wars 1 inspired from its fans that Guild Wars 2 doesn’t quite reach. Maybe an Asuran dev team took over? Pretty sure the original dev team survived the searing of old Ascalon.