Guild Wars 2

Konig Des Todes.2086:

This works for the Mordrem Wolf and Mordrem Troll, but not the Mordrem Guard which are grown from the Blighting Trees – or, in turn, sylvari grown from the Pale Trees.

I wasn’t able to play the BWE event with the Blighting Tree, so I’m curious if those pods actually contained Mordrem Guard and not the more beastly Mordrem instead (in which case those would be corrupted clones sampled from the captured template specimen)? If the pods did indeed contain the Mordrem Guard, was it stated whether these were truly “purebred” Mordrem Guard per se and not captured sylvari undergoing a transformation (similar to how the Dreamers underwent a transformation of sorts in the conversion pods in Twilight Arbor courtesy of the Nightmare Court)?

Leah Hoyer stated in the POI that the Mordrem Guard we encounter in Verdant Brink are turned Pact sylvari and that the commanders appear to be the only Mordrem Guard who are cloned (but only if the commander’s previous body is destroyed and their consciousness has to be transferred so the knowledge isn’t lost). This would make me think that there can be no “purebred” Mordrem Guard, and all the MG we see (apart from the three commanders’ clones) are the originals who were never born from the Blighting Tree (unless they underwent a transformation as stated above).

It could be that while some Mordrem Guard undergo the transformation without a hitch, they might also speed up the process of the more resisting sylvari whom they’ve captured by using the methods the Nightmare Court used at TA. It would also explain why in the earlier BWE story instance the freed Pale Reaver explained how some captured sylvari were taken deeper into the jungle to “join the jungle dragon’s army,” which to me implies that the Mordrem Guard planned to use a more forceful conversion method to those more strong-willed captives.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If they’re like Glint, then like Glint they should still consume magic. No?

Wouldn’t a more appropriate comparison be Gleam rather than Glint, though, considering Gleam is Glint’s child just like the sylvari are the children of the Pale Tree? Or compare Glint and the Pale Tree as the mothers of their respective children?

From what we can see, it appears the Pale Tree must have some sort of connection to magic, being able to grant people passage into the Dream (which I would assume happens magically). If she can use magic to access the Dream and mentions how difficult it is to maintain the portal into the Dream (as she explains in A Light in the Darkness), it means she must be channeling magic, which in turn means she should be able to consume it as well. That would then make her rather similar to Glint, a similarly freed dragon minion.

Interestingly Glint appeared to have the gift of prophecy, and the Dream also appears to provide glimpses of potential future events which the Pale Tree witnesses. Perhaps there’s a connection there waiting to be explored in a future storyline, or maybe it’s just an eerie coincidence.

So, this leads us to the following: if Glint and the Pale Tree can consume magic as theorized above, what about their children (aka the “offspring/creations” of these purified dragon minions) then? If Gleam was shown to do nothing in GW1 but let itself be guarded and the sylvari aren’t shown to consume magic either (even though they may or may not be capable of such), it leaves too big a question mark to answer definitely until we get further information (hopefully from HoT).

It’s possible that neither Gleam nor sylvari can consume magic unless they are corrupted into dragon minions (which may or may not unlock “untapped” potential), or maybe they have an innate ability for that due to being offspring of corrupted mothers, but we aren’t shown how they can access that magic…yet. Then again, we see one of the three Nightmare Counts/Countesses fuse (from what I understand) with the Nightmare Tree in the NC-centric TA Explorable paths, so the sylvari appear to have some mystical abilities to pull something like that off.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

By that argument, the Pale Tree is losing a lot of magic by creating constant smart sylvari.

Who’s to say the Pale Tree can’t nourish herself with magic to sustain the constant creation of ever increasing numbers of sylvari? We also know that the Pale Tree can open pathways into the Dream although it’s difficult for her. All that nourishment to keep up something like that must be coming from somewhere, so why not magic or a leyline underneath, perhaps?

We know that the Tower of Nightmares fed on the magic of krait and Nightmare Court who nurtured it as well as whatever magic was in the krait obelisk that Scarlet brought to the Toxic Alliance to speed up the growing of the tower. If the Tower of Nightmares was indeed the Pale Tree’s corrupted sister as has been subtly implied via music and otherwise, then perhaps there’s a connection with the two Trees’ magic feeding?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s already been shown in-game that sylvari are dragon minions and that this is known to at least the sylvari. During the Mordrem Invasions, the Mordrem Researcher in Brisban, Eullo, had dialogue talking about being near the sylvari there to study Mordremoth and his affects on his minions – but note that no change has affected them.

So it’s already out there. It’s already known.

But why?

Is it actually known, though? Let’s look at two points that might argue otherwise:

1) Eullo mentions having come to Watchful Source, the sylvari encampment, to collect samples from the invading mordrem despite the dangers she would be facing there. When asked about the sylvari, she doesn’t care to “state the obvious”, and that’s where the ambiguity and the need for context, in my opinion, comes in. The settlement is full of sylvari, and Eullo’s answer to the player seems to imply more that the sylvari, as civilians/soldiers in the area, are in as much a danger of being overrun by Mordrem as she is. She seems more concerned about whether Mordremoth’s corruption will affect the area than whether it would affect certain individuals…or at least that’s the way she comes across to me. She actually expresses regret that, for research purposes, the area is still unaffected by the dragon’s corruption so she has to keep waiting for something “interesting” to happen.

Perhaps this is a language issue as I’m not a native English speaker, but what Eullo says doesn’t outright make it seem to me that she’s aware that sylvari can be turned by Mordremoth; instead she’s aware that her research could get her, and the sylvari in the area, in danger due to the invading Mordrem and that her concern is what effects the corruption will have on the area specifically.

2) If the devs still intend HoT’s story to begin immediately/within 24 hours from the end of LW Season 2, are we to believe that this mordrem invasion happened in between us reaching Camp Resolve and whatever the beginning of HoT’s very first story instance will be? So the Commander ran from Silverwastes to aid against this invasion in three different maps, and somehow during this time period of 24 hours (give or take) news of the Pact fleet decimation (and sylvari turning AND being revealed as belonging to the dragon) would’ve reached the ears of not only the Pact soldiers in Silverwastes but also Brisban Wildlands for Eullo to somehow come to that conclusion and mentioning it very casually like it was common knowledge (if that’s the way her sentence is to be interpreted)?

To me the mordrem invasion is either a noncanonical event made only for the “cool factor” like the mass Branded invasion from the GW2 beta (or has it ever been made canon?), or then there must’ve been more than 24 hours in between S2 ending and HoT beginning for the mordrem attack to take place and for information about sylvari treachery to feasibly spread that far. I suppose one could argue that the invasion happened simultaneously with the Pact Fleet crash via Mordremoth’s flexing its muscles, but even so I seriously doubt news of sylvari being minions would’ve spread to Brisban that quickly as the survivors of the fleet wouldn’t have been able to even process information like that yet, not to mention even be aware of the dragon connection.

I personally don’t think HoT will lead to the “sylvari = dragon minions!” reveal to the general Tyrian population immediately. If there are witch hunts, it’ll likely have to do with a select sylvari suddenly going crazy in various locations like DR and the public panicking and thinking all of them could be affected although they wouldn’t immediately know it’s because of the sylvari’s origins and might rather think it’s some strange Mordremoth toxin affecting the sylvari’s minds instead. Perhaps at some pivotal moment we’ll hear Rytlock’s “You can’t trust sylvari; they belong to the dragon now” speech after which the race’s dragon connection becomes widely known to the rest of Tyria, but I expect the narrative to take its time before making it happen if such news will even spread among the public at all. The trailer could be misleading as it’s showing separate scenes without much context, after all.

Coulter.2315:

The lack of conservation of mass is shared by all dragons though (what did the Mouth of Zhaitan used to be or how do you get the skeleton of a Royal Orrian to turn into a giant eye while conserving mass? Primordus’ spawners don’t shrink as they pump out rock eggs.) Clearly some magic is being used to ignore those naughty physics.

If you take a closer look at the Eyes of Zhaitan, you see that the creature actually consists of a skeletal being carrying the Eye. However, the skeleton has warped considerably by having those “ridges” attached to it which make it look more monstrous.

Lyrael.5803:

Ok, Glint used to be a dragon champion so how does lore explain the fact that she has eggs? Or is this why Glint’s egg is so important because it explains how the pale tree is also able to spawn Sylvari? I hope we get answers in HoT.

The likely reason is that Glint was pregnant when she was corrupted by Kralkatorrik. It’s a logical assumption from a lore standpoint, considering that based on dialogue from Personal Story the dragon minions we’ve met so far haven’t been capable of reproducing due to lacking the needed parts for impregnation to happen. The closest they can do is creating minions (as seen with the Branded Destroyer Queen in the Order story missions dealing with the skritt) but those aren’t exactly offspring per se.

I expect we learn more about the Trees and their history in HoT after all the things that have been hinted at in past BWEs. Perhaps Malyck’s Tree, should we encounter her in a good enough shape, might shed some light on this mystery.

Kossage.9072:

Eullo mentions having come to Watchful Source, the sylvari encampment, to collect samples from the invading mordrem despite the dangers she would be facing there. When asked about the sylvari, she doesn’t care to “state the obvious”, and that’s where the ambiguity and the need for context, in my opinion, comes in. The settlement is full of sylvari, and Eullo’s answer to the player seems to imply more that the sylvari, as civilians/soldiers in the area, are in as much a danger of being overrun by Mordrem as she is. She seems more concerned about whether Mordremoth’s corruption will affect the area than whether it would affect certain individuals…or at least that’s the way she comes across to me. She actually expresses regret that, for research purposes, the area is still unaffected by the dragon’s corruption so she has to keep waiting for something “interesting” to happen.

Perhaps this is a language issue as I’m not a native English speaker, but what Eullo says doesn’t outright make it seem to me that she’s aware that sylvari can be turned by Mordremoth; instead she’s aware that her research could get her, and the sylvari in the area, in danger due to the invading Mordrem and that her concern is what effects the corruption will have on the area specifically.

I definitely don’t read it that way. The dialogue seems to imply the Eullo, not the civilian sylvari (or asura, or humans, or skritt) are in danger.

And if it is a case of civilians in danger, why only mention sylvari and not mention the others nearby (skritt, asura, and humans)? Why don’t the other researchers have dialogue that talk about potential civilian casualties – they don’t mention anything like Eullo, perhaps because they’re not surrounded by dozens of sylvari (There are some near the Kessex researcher, mind you, but not nearly as many as Eullo’s place).

Kossage.9072:

If the devs still intend HoT’s story to begin immediately/within 24 hours from the end of LW Season 2, are we to believe that this mordrem invasion happened in between us reaching Camp Resolve and whatever the beginning of HoT’s very first story instance will be? So the Commander ran from Silverwastes to aid against this invasion in three different maps, and somehow during this time period of 24 hours (give or take) news of the Pact fleet decimation (and sylvari turning AND being revealed as belonging to the dragon) would’ve reached the ears of not only the Pact soldiers in Silverwastes but also Brisban Wildlands for Eullo to somehow come to that conclusion and mentioning it very casually like it was common knowledge (if that’s the way her sentence is to be interpreted)?

It’s more than just the invasions.

We also have the preparations for the LA reconstruction, the LA reconstruction itself, and then the invasions. Potentially one may argue in the Lunar New Year too, since Wintersday was pushed into the storyline as well.

Most importantly to my point is one of the dialogues from the short-term LA reconstruction. Brokka had this to say to OoW members:

Ah, what a delight to see a fellow agent in the field. Word from headquarters is that our assignments will be changing once we return to Lion’s Arch.
→ I imagine they will. Any word on the Pact?
Any agents who survived the crash have been recalled to headquarters, and from what I hear, the number is very small. Others are also being called back.

Indicating that not only has the Pact’s fleet destruction happened, but survivors had made it back to the Chantry of Secrets.

This does NOT happen in 24 hours when it takes 3+ days to travel from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City (per Ghosts of Ascalon).

So either everything that’s happened thus far is meant to be during the events of Heart of Thorns, or ArenaNet realized that they were too optimistic for how soon to get HoT out and that 24 hour thing is no longer the case.

If it weren’t for that line I’d argue that the LA reconstruction is a “during Season 2, meanwhile elsewhere…” situation.

The thing is that many are forgetting, is that GW2 takes place so many years after GW1 (off of the top of my head, I can’t remember exactly), hence why there are plot holes when trying to compare GW1 lore and GW2 lore.

Lets look at how ESO did it with their MMO lore wise. They set it 3000(?) years into the past, so basically, they at least KNEW where they were going in their design, because they had a diagram technically placed before them.

Example: “Oh, dragon X fell here, so we know where to have that battle take place that the players get to experience it, rather than read”.

Guildwars franchise is done different, in that we had a time skip, leaving many things unexplained, unresolved, thus creating these plot holes.

Lets step out of the ‘game’ mindset and think actual RP inside the game. You go to the Priory Library and read a book about some ‘unnamed hero’. You, as your character, could think, “wait, why is the hero unknown? He’s a hero. Did something happen?”

While we know “oh, that’s suppose to be our character from GW1. And there was no way to input the name”.

So yeah, Anet did take the harder path in this, as now they have to connect the dots between the lores, and its not going to be easy. Not to mention, figure out a way to express that in game that makes sense.

So yes, the lore is what it is because a game of catchup needs to be played to make it fit, and make sense. Heck, i wouldn’t put it pass Anet that some of the plot holes are potential expansion ideas for the future.

Is it so far-fetched to consider the “fruit-bearing” trees as corrupted plants, much like Primordius corrupts rock? And to take it further, that the corrupted fruits from these corrupted trees, no longer have the ability to reproduce as one of the side-effects to the corruption, meaning that no, they won’t all turn into Blighted Trees?

For me it’s the opposite. It makes no sense how a dragon minion could reproduce, asexually, yet create sterile creatures.

Why are Blighting Trees capable of being minion factories via more ‘natural’ (albeit twisted) methods, when no other dragon minion – mordrem or otherwise – is?

For me, the Dream is part of the hive mind Mordremoth uses to control and communicate with his minions, the Pale Tree, due to its premature growing and Vantari’s Tablet, was able to encapsulate a part of this hive mind to protect the Sylvari who are connected to the Dream.
There is no direct proof for this theory, but we know that the Pale Tree is not the source of the Dream, but merely someone who protects it. This leaves the question who or what is the source of the Dream.
We also know that Elder Dragons know everything their monions know, which sounds like all Elder Dragons have some sort of network that allows them to control their minions and to learn everything their minions know. The Dream does fit this description perfectly, with the only difference being that we have no direct proof that Sylvari get controlled through the Dream (outside of the Pale Tree’s protection).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For me it’s the opposite. It makes no sense how a dragon minion could reproduce, asexually, yet create sterile creatures.

Why are Blighting Trees capable of being minion factories via more ‘natural’ (albeit twisted) methods, when no other dragon minion – mordrem or otherwise – is?

Well, if we consider for a moment that Mordremoth or any other Elder Dragon doesn’t create his minions through sexual reproduction, not because he can’t, but because he doesn’t want to. He wants his minions to fight, not to create offsprings. Creating more minions is a task assigned to only a few minions, in the case of Mordremoth, the trees.

As far as I understood how Mordremoth creates minions, he doesn’t corrupt anything. He creates everything himself. He just takes the most advanced beings he can find and copies them. Just as the Pale Tree modeled the Sylvari after the humans burried below the tree.

distributes popcorn and beer to the lurkers

Continue entertaining us, please.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You’re not entirely true. Throughout the game, while corpses are the “main” thing that Zhaitan corrupts we see him corrupting living beings, plants, ground, air, and water.

I cant be 100% sure but that may not be 100% the case.
You did point out in other replies living characters that got corrupted like Necromancer Risa and Corporal Kellach. Risa doesnt seem to really be corrupted himself as such. Its more like she is using Zaithans corruption to transform people into risen (after they die, see howl the brazen storyline) and then take control perhaps using necromancy more then anything else.

Corporal Kellach seems to have been affected by the corruption himself before he died but only to a limited degree, in the sense he was not a minion of Zaithan the corruption seems to have merely drove him mad. So much so his actual goal was primarily to cure the corruption, not something zaithan would be interested in. Seems like its more of a zombie epidemic in a way. being exposed to it while you’re alive makes you sick and it may eventually kill you but only once you’re dead it can truely take hold. Of course this is just a theory I could be wrong

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kralkatorrik is similar in that he corrupted the land, air, and living beings. Jormag’s been shown to corrupt ice, living beings, and even corpses. Primordus has been known to corrupt land and fire, but is told to be capable of corrupting living beings too.

By all indication, all dragons are capable of corrupting the same ‘materials’ or ‘subjects’, but their corruption takes a different form, and they corrupt a specific type of subject more than others (e.g., Zhaitan with corpses).

Doesnt this suggest that dragon corruption works differently between different dragons though? That they all have their own uniqueish approach to minion creation?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

As for trees untouched giving birth to plant creature – maybe not in that specific context, but we do have non-mordrem plant creatures seen throughout GW1 of various kinds and sizes, and in GW2 we have the treants (which are mobile trees).

I am not sure how treants and other plant like creatures are born and it kinda seems crazy to say this about something thats fictitious anyway but if you take the slyvari as an example they really seem unnatural. In that they seem to have skipped a lot of evolutionary steps and progressed a lot in so little time. There had to be dragon influence there for sure but there still had to be a spark so to speak. something all dragons have in common is none of them seem to create minions out of nothing, they all twist something thats already there. Jormag, people/ice etc.. Doesnt that suggest Mordermoth likely corrupted nature for that?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Jormag’s been stated as unique by a few NPCs such as Khrigar Ripjaw in that Jormag and icebrood do not forcibly corrupt but ‘convince’ people to join him willingly and corrupts those willing converts – this is an indirect explanation for why Jora was able to avoid corruption, but excluding Mordremoth, Jormag is the only dragon to do such. In the case of the Dragonspawn, he was a mesmer that used mental manipulation to trick people via compulsion to accept the gift (that compulsion being the ‘temptation’).

Then again to be fair when Khrigar made his statement, timeline speaking We didnt even know Mordermoth Existed much less could anyone state how s/he would operate. But thats not what I meant either. I meant to check this but completely forget, I seem to recall that somewhere, perhaps in the books there is a scene describing Karkatorrik flight when he created the brand (could also have been a flashback, some part of the personal story… just cant recall) Warbands got corrupted but they didnt all get corrupted and charr fought fallen warband members as they were trying to figure out what happened. That suggested (unless for some weird reason I imagined it) that corruption can be fought of somehow.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It should be noted that the Sons of Svanir who channel Jormag’s powers into other break Jormag’s rule of ‘willing converts only’ and even that rule, as shown by the Dragonspawn, is flimsy at best.

I think you may taking things a bit too extreme. Why would Jormag having a rule that he only turns willing converts? it makes sense if its a chosen approach but there is no reason to stick to it. At the end of the day what jormag wants is an army to do its bidding. He may feel willing soldiers make better soldiers and it makes sense to focus on that but why refuse extra power, based on principle? that doesnt seem to fit really.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

But sylvari refusing Mordremoth’s call isn’t a case of concern here. It’s everyone’s reaction to this sudden revelation that by all logical reasoning shouldn’t be known to anyone but a handful.

I am not so sure about this. Lets assume elder dragons exist in our world. One wakes up and we send a global army force to deal with it. Only for some weird reason most Males with black hair suddenly turn on their fellow soldiers. Now granted having black hair is probably not as distinct as an entire race but how long would it take for the army to realize this dragon can control guys with black hair? now keep in mind guys with black hair that didnt attack their fellow soldiers still felt the call, they just fought it off. They can explain to their fellow soldiers what happened and how not all guys with black hair are a threat. How long do you think it will take for 1 guy with black hair to spill the beans if not for mutal protection (after all controlled black hair guys attack uncontrolled black hair guys) out of avoiding a possible preventative action by other soldiers with different hair colour? and once 1 black haired soldier spills the beans how long do you think it will be until all the army knows? They couldnt have known before the attack but I dont think its out of character to say they all knew within days of the attack.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Galen Grey.4709:

So its not like Sylvari are dragon minions that dont behave like dragon minions but rather they’re just not imprinted yet.

I think you misunderstood me. It’s not sylvari behavior. It’s sylvari function.

Their biological function, not their personality behavior.

Okey I am a bit at aloss here now can you explain more? you mean why they’re not trying to spread the corruption like other corrupted minions do? that may be because up until this point (pact attack and downfall) they were focusing on defense. I mean Modremoth activated them (for lack of a better word) to repel the pact assault. and besides once we’re all death Modremoth can like clone us I guess. If thats what you mean.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So there was a mass spread of corruption. But that wouldn’t explain why everyone is going “they belong to the dragon now, they cannot be trusted!”

see above

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Instead they should be going “they can be easily corrupted by Mordremoth, but their physical appearance does change over time (into the Mordrem Guard appearance) when this happens!”

We dont know that such a change happens immideately following corruption. If it takes time or if not all those corrupted are changed into Mordrem Guard than the reaction is understandable.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It would be as if a whole number of norn suddenly go berserk and a week later those berserked norn have ice coating their skin. They got corrupted into icebrood. Does this mean that every norn was created by Jormag and will turn into an icebrood at any moment? kitten NO!

Jormag as far as I know cant corrupt remotely though like Modremoth seems to be able to. That makes a huge difference. Add to that dont forget its quite possible the pact didnt come on its own to the conclusion slyvari belong to modremoth but that rather some slyvari stated it. Also there is the little problem that slyvari are plants and modremoth is also a plant like dragon… If norn were ice elementals would it be a stretch for charr / humans to conclude norn were created by Jormag?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Precisely. So until sylvari start yapping “oh, hey, buddy I’ve been with in the Pact for a couple years, apparently my race are born dragon minions… yeah” no non-sylvari would know that they can understand Mordremoth. They’d just assume Mordremoth’s the only ED to be capable of corrupting sylvari and that the Mordrem Guard who shout “sylvari are born dragon minions!” are liars just like the risen who shouted “Zhaitan will reunite you with your lost loved ones!”

To non-sylvari, it’s the same situation as before.

Sure I agree but how long would it take for a sylvari to explain all that once sylvari attacked the pact?

Lets simplify things. Lets say the pact had 10 of each race. 6 sylvari attack everyone else but are beaten back by the other 44. Lets assume 2 of each race died in the onslaught. What happens next? the remaining 32 soldiers turn to the remaining 2 sylvari and go “What the baby cat just happened here?” what would the 2 sylvari say really? is there an excuse they can come up with or will they explain exactly what just happened?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It’s not exactly clear with icebrood either… Sometimes they’re encased in ice, other times they’re hearing whispers in their head by champions such as Drakkar and the Dragonspawn.

Yeah but even then it doesnt happen as sudden as it did here.

I don’t think people in the game are aware that sylvari comes from mordremoth, the closest I know is in the story during beta where this charr pact says sylvari are belong to mordremoth. But this is really not clear as she can just assume from the fact that as the giant tendrils strike the airships, so do most of sylvari. And as you said, mordremoth corrupts plant and sylvari are plants, and the only people turned during the attack are only sylvari (just my guess from trailer), she might assume that mordremoth only corrupts sylvari, without actually knowing their actual origin.

Eullo might not know sylvari’s origin as well, or maybe their actual involvement? The one who ask about these sylvari are us (as in why they are there), who already knew where sylvari come from. Frankly its quiet normal because you know the truth about sylvari and Eullo is coincidentally (?) assigned there. The obvious thing, I think, is that the sylvari are there because it’s the Wardens settlement and base operative to fight against the Nightmare Court and other bad guys, while, which is not so obvious since it is temporary, is why Eullo there; positioned to observe the area, although it is quiet absurd why she feels unfortunate that the area is not affected by Mordrem corruption. Probably her thirst of adventure and discovery like a Priory and asuran she is. Anyway, the dialogue is pretty ambigous, especially the follow-up question, the answer sounds irrelevant, too. The one that bugs me though, the sylvari settlement on the west of Ireko Tradecamp, which never really mentioned.

Other than that, I agree with the fact that the name of mordremoth is just suddenly there and we just know it, and why sylvari does not consume magic, though what I know is that we are all using this resource. It is exciting though! Is it because the Grove sylvari have their free will and also affected by their generally goodwill? Thus is consuming and stocking magic safe and/or ethical? How about the Nightmare Court, then? Above all, is it that simple to consume magic? I don’t know much about magic, but so far, I know that in the “What the Eye Beholds”, the magic artifact that has been collected is eventually consumed by the Mouth of Zhaitan, which basically ended in Zhaitan’s tummy. As well as Mordremoth, I think the tendrils almost have similar function, to find magical artifact and absorb magical flow and eventually stock them, since that is the nature of Elder Dragon. Then all the magic consumed by the risen, for example, might be consumed by the Dragon at the end. So what I’m trying to say is that, the nature of the Dragons’ servants who have submitted themselves to the Dragons is what makes them consuming all the magic.

As for hivemind and Mordremoth’s ability to “reproduce”, I am really looking forward whether or not HoT will have these covered (and of course I hope they will! *poking Leah and Bobby XD), or at least have short literatures

What would make the HOT story epic and far better than the prior GW2 story content would be the option to fight for the dragon, to embrace the change or whatever, and have that choice to fight for evil.

I’m really hoping the story is far better quality than the core personal story. I just got LS2 in the hopes that its a bit higher quality than the core story…haven’t touched it yet though.

The core story isn’t horrible, don’t get me wrong, just a lot of really cheesy and predictable outcomes and dialogue. Predictable story, even with the paths based on choices at character creation, as well as paths during all lead to the same outcome and conclusion, which does help at least I can vary the middle part of the personal story a bit.

I just think they need to get the writing, dialogue, and story on par to what SWTOR and ESO are doing and did….not that ESO if I can remember had a vastly varied story but it was high quality.

So I’m really hoping HOT takes it all up a notch and kinda sheds its b-movie storyline and dialogue.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For me it’s the opposite. It makes no sense how a dragon minion could reproduce, asexually, yet create sterile creatures.

Why are Blighting Trees capable of being minion factories via more ‘natural’ (albeit twisted) methods, when no other dragon minion – mordrem or otherwise – is?

This may actually be by design. We know Dragons come up from nap time once every 10k years, reset the world by consuming all magic then go sleepy sleepy again. We know every single time this cycle happened, dragons were victorious (else there would be no more dragons naturally)

This all implies that for some unknown reason, perhaps because dragons need to actually feed on magic every once in a while to stay alive? Now I am fully aware that the magic that rebuilds is actually seeping out of the dragons themselves but 1. that may not matter, they still may need to consume it again. 2. maybe the whole theory is inaccurate. I mean as far as I know we know of the whole dragon magic swipping through in game lore and the lore itself states that lore is flacky. Its essentially theories groups like the priory came up with through observation. Its entirely possible that for realism Anet elected to make it so some theories are wrong which is to be expected in such a situation.

But anyway I am going out of point. Dragons may need life to replenish itself while they slumber but if thats the case what happens if dragon minions could reproduce? Dragons leave world devastated, with some survivors surrounded with millions of minions that can reproduce. World would simply never recover. If minions dont reproduce though in a generation they’ll die out and whatever is left of each race can start to rebuild and prosper until its 10k years o’clock again at least.

If dragons need life every 10k to consume they may very well have designed sterile minions to give life the chance it would need to recover.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For me it’s the opposite. It makes no sense how a dragon minion could reproduce, asexually, yet create sterile creatures.

Why are Blighting Trees capable of being minion factories via more ‘natural’ (albeit twisted) methods, when no other dragon minion – mordrem or otherwise – is?

Dragon minions aren’t a species though, they are constructs of the Dragon. Why don’t the little ones reproduce? Because the Dragon can’t make them/doesn’t want them to (we don’t know how much of a sacrifice of power the Dragon must make to have a spawning minion – maybe having whole armies reproducing would suck up the resources. Or any other reason we don’t know or guess).

Perhaps its more efficient to have lots of little minions to attack somewhere but spawning things requires a certain size (Sylvari don’t pop out baby size so a Sylvari can’t exactly give birth to another Sylvari) so there are 2 classes of creature – big spawners and little invaders.

Wuselknusel.4082:

For me, the Dream is part of the hive mind Mordremoth uses to control and communicate with his minions, the Pale Tree, due to its premature growing and Vantari’s Tablet, was able to encapsulate a part of this hive mind to protect the Sylvari who are connected to the Dream.

The Dream acts as the sylvari’s protection, however.

It also forsees the future and is a physical place to enter.

It’s also outright stated to not be a hive mind by sylvari (Ghosts of Ascalon, page 21).

Galen Grey.4709:

I cant be 100% sure but that may not be 100% the case.
You did point out in other replies living characters that got corrupted like Necromancer Risa and Corporal Kellach. -sniprest-

There’s more than just Kellach and Rissa. You also have some hearts in Sparkfly and Bloodtide – such as the aforementioned Help Ayomichi slow the spread of Risen corruption. In most cases, meaning via the hearts, Zhaitan’s corruption on the living takes the shape of disease that slowly kills them. Which is the same as the amulets that Rissa had used.

Galen Grey.4709:

Doesnt this suggest that dragon corruption works differently between different dragons though? That they all have their own uniqueish approach to minion creation?

It suggests that they can corrupt the same things, and aside from element their corruption takes the same ultimate form, but how they go about corrupting differs slightly.

Galen Grey.4709:

I meant to check this but completely forget, I seem to recall that somewhere, perhaps in the books there is a scene describing Karkatorrik flight when he created the brand (could also have been a flashback, some part of the personal story… just cant recall) Warbands got corrupted but they didnt all get corrupted and charr fought fallen warband members as they were trying to figure out what happened. That suggested (unless for some weird reason I imagined it) that corruption can be fought of somehow.

You likely speak of Almorra’s backstory. But according to interviews, she was just outside the path of corruption – just on the edge of what would become the Dragonbrand, while her warband was inside (though this doesn’t fit up with her retelling in GoA).

All those within the Dragonbrand as Kralkatorrik flew past were corrupted.

Galen Grey.4709:

I think you may taking things a bit too extreme. Why would Jormag having a rule that he only turns willing converts? it makes sense if its a chosen approach but there is no reason to stick to it. At the end of the day what jormag wants is an army to do its bidding. He may feel willing soldiers make better soldiers and it makes sense to focus on that but why refuse extra power, based on principle? that doesnt seem to fit really.

Why does Zhaitan focus on corrupting corpses?

Why does Primordus focus on corrupting rock?

There’s a very clear case of personal preference in the subjects that the dragons corrupt. He clearly doesn’t care about his army. Not only does he not refuse forced converts, but he doesn’t care that Sons of Svanir hunt down icebrood – and they do, as indicated in the dialogue at The Barrowstead as well as the lore for why we see no female norn icebrood (sons of svanir kill them). To use Jeff Grubb’s explanation, Jormag just goes “oh look, the black ants are killing the red ants, who cares.”

Galen Grey.4709:

Okey I am a bit at aloss here now can you explain more? you mean why they’re not trying to spread the corruption like other corrupted minions do? that may be because up until this point (pact attack and downfall) they were focusing on defense. I mean Modremoth activated them (for lack of a better word) to repel the pact assault. and besides once we’re all death Modremoth can like clone us I guess. If thats what you mean.

1. Why don’t sylvari eat magic.
2. Why don’t sylvari have a hive mind.
3. Why don’t sylvari come from unaltered materials.
4. Why aren’t sylvari mostly mindless.

etc. etc. etc.

The only similarity they’ve shown with mordrem is ’they’re made of plants and look like another race (humans)’.

Galen Grey.4709:

We dont know that such a change happens immideately following corruption. If it takes time or if not all those corrupted are changed into Mordrem Guard than the reaction is understandable.

Supposedly Heart of Thorns takes place approximately 24 hours after the Pact Fleet crashes.

That means that the sylvari who turned became the physically identifiable Mordrem Guard within a day.

In Edge of Destiny, when a group that went out to fight the Dragonspawn returned two weeks later and they were only coated in ice.

1 day

2 weeks

Which is faster?

Galen Grey.4709:

Jormag as far as I know cant corrupt remotely though like Modremoth seems to be able to. That makes a huge difference. Add to that dont forget its quite possible the pact didnt come on its own to the conclusion slyvari belong to modremoth but that rather some slyvari stated it. Also there is the little problem that slyvari are plants and modremoth is also a plant like dragon… If norn were ice elementals would it be a stretch for charr / humans to conclude norn were created by Jormag?

Dragonspawn had quite a reach with his powers, I’d imagine Jormag has a wider one.

And you just stated my point – Mordremoth’s a plant-corrupting dragon. So why come to the conclusion “sylvari are dragon minions” and not “sylvari are corruptible by Mordremoth”.

Galen Grey.4709:

If dragons need life every 10k to consume they may very well have designed sterile minions to give life the chance it would need to recover.

So why is Mordremoth different?

That’s the crux of my point. Mordremoth is different. Vastly different than all other dragons.

Why?

To me, the answer is “cuz rule of cool” and that’s just sad.

I really don’t think or want the dragons to be different colors of the same thing. I like that they each have their own quirks and distinctions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And if it is a case of civilians in danger, why only mention sylvari and not mention the others nearby (skritt, asura, and humans)? Why don’t the other researchers have dialogue that talk about potential civilian casualties – they don’t mention anything like Eullo, perhaps because they’re not surrounded by dozens of sylvari (There are some near the Kessex researcher, mind you, but not nearly as many as Eullo’s place).

As ErickDntn stated above, it’s the PC who references the sylvari in particular, and Watchful Source is mostly populated by sylvari, hence the emphasis on their race over others. Granted, it probably could’ve been worded better unless the writers deliberately wanted to add some ambiguity and “wink wink nudge nudge” references there.

Perhaps the other camps’ researchers didn’t mention potential civilian casualties due to the writers wanting to add different dialogues for the researchers that each reveal something interesting about the situation at hand (such as the researcher at Kessex mentioning a theory regarding the connection between Mordrem and Scarlet’s activities)? There’s also the fact that Brisban is closer to the Heart of Maguuma than Kessex Hills and Diessa Plateau are, so Brisban may be deemed to be at a greater risk than other locations.

I suppose we won’t find the truth about this matter unless a writer comes in and clarifies what the intention was; it also depends on if these invasions are supposed to be canonical or not as either way would work given the context. Some of the written lines are arguably ambiguous, hence many of us posters’ differences in opinion.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We also have the preparations for the LA reconstruction, the LA reconstruction itself, and then the invasions. Potentially one may argue in the Lunar New Year too, since Wintersday was pushed into the storyline as well.

Most importantly to my point is one of the dialogues from the short-term LA reconstruction. Brokka had this to say to OoW members:

[…]

Indicating that not only has the Pact’s fleet destruction happened, but survivors had made it back to the Chantry of Secrets.

This does NOT happen in 24 hours when it takes 3+ days to travel from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City (per Ghosts of Ascalon).

So either everything that’s happened thus far is meant to be during the events of Heart of Thorns, or ArenaNet realized that they were too optimistic for how soon to get HoT out and that 24 hour thing is no longer the case.

Yeah, back when those lines were uttered, I wondered if that dialogue was actually meant to be canonical or just a kind of an aside and an easter egg of sorts for players who like to chat with NPCs. After all, how could news travel all the way to the Order about the crash from such a distance away, especially when Mordrem keep destroying the transports trying to flee from the crash site, and distrust between sylvari and other Pact races grows (based on what we saw in BWE when we first enter Verdant Brink) until the PC comes to take charge of the situation? Unless this means that some Pact ships actually survived the initial vines/sylvari attack and fled from the scene in panic back to Pact Tyria…

Based on all the evidence, it would seem the most logical route for the narrative if the news of the Pact fleet’s crash will take some time to reach Pact Tyria, but that would also diminish the rescue narrative we have at the beginning of the expansion’s story. If OoW members have already been evacuated from the site and recalled to base, then the danger, while great, is not as great as it’s made to seem in Verdant Brink regarding the nighttime Mordrem appearances there. Granted, we only see parts of the beginning as there was no explanation of when Canach joined the party and why everyone was okay with it, so there has to be a prelude of some sort taking place in the Silverwastes or maybe in Pact Tyria that then leads us to Verdant Brink.

Depending on how the story is handled in that very beginning of HoT’s story, it should give us the answers we need regarding the currently rather confusing timing of events.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

For me it’s the opposite. It makes no sense how a dragon minion could reproduce, asexually, yet create sterile creatures.

Why are Blighting Trees capable of being minion factories via more ‘natural’ (albeit twisted) methods, when no other dragon minion – mordrem or otherwise – is?

Perhaps the key to solving this mystery is the Forgotten “cleansing ritual” which may have something to do with it? So far the only knowledge we have of the offspring of a dragon minion are from Glint and the Pale Tree/Malyck’s Tree, one of whom was confirmed to have been cleansed and was likely pregnant during corruption and the others who may also have been cleansed based on the hints we’ve seen in game so far.

The seeds in the cave that Ronan found may have been cleansed by the Forgotten, especially considering the hints we’ve had of their involvement in both the Golden Cave and the expansion’s Golden City (both of which share similar music themes as confirmed by Lena Chappelle in a recent POI as well as in her preview track which I heavily suspect plays in the Golden City due to thematic similarities with the Golden Cave theme). Perhaps the “byproduct” of this cleansing from dragon corruption could’ve allowed the Trees the ability to create sterile children somehow? Considering how rare the ritual appears to be and how difficult it is to perform due to needing specific locations and whatnot (mentioned by devs in an interview), this could explain why the Trees appear to differ so much from the “common” Mordrem and other dragon minions we’ve encountered so far.

Perhaps the Blighting Tree in Verdant Brink (and its potential sister trees as implied by the existence of two other Mordrem Commanders deeper in the jungle who would need the Trees to create clones of themselves to transfer their consciousness into if they perish) was originally one of the many cleansed seeds from the cave Ronan found as was the Tower of Nightmares before Mordremoth’s minions found them and planted/corrupted them (in the case of Scarlet and the Toxic Alliance, cultivated the ToN possibly as an experiment as seen with the Toxic Hybrid and the spread of the toxins and stalks), thus resulting in the horrors that came after? We know that at least the Pale Tree and Malyck’s Tree bore sylvari who were unaffected by Mordremoth’s corruption for a time, but the Blighting Tree(s) appears to have fallen under Mordy’s power at some point if it wasn’t already planted in a corrupted state.

What I’m really curious about is the role of Malyck’s Tree in particular in the context of HoT’s story. Considering it took not only the Forgotten cleansing ritual but also Glint’s own decision after a while to turn good instead of continuing to serve her dragon master and that both Ventari’s Tablet and Ronan’s nurture may have likewise steered the Pale Tree into the benevolent mother she later became, does this mean Malyck’s Tree had likewise good influences/chose to become good (for one reason or another) or actually stayed on Mordremoth’s side despite being freed from the corruption via the ritual? What if Malyck was an anomaly (due to being “disconnected” from the Tree and ending up away from his Grove), and the rest of his brothers and sisters became willing servants of Mordremoth due to never receiving good influences prior to being born? If the HoT preview track I speculate to play at Malyck’s Grove will indeed play at Malyck’s Grove and isn’t meant to be scary but mysterious in atmosphere, perhaps we’ll see a Tree connected to neither the Dream nor to Mordremoth and wanting to forge her own path: not the Path of Day or Night but the Path of Twilight. Whatever the answer ends up being, I look forward to finding out what the writers have in store for us once I have my sylvari venture deeper into the jungle.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Wuselknusel.4082:

For me, the Dream is part of the hive mind Mordremoth uses to control and communicate with his minions, the Pale Tree, due to its premature growing and Vantari’s Tablet, was able to encapsulate a part of this hive mind to protect the Sylvari who are connected to the Dream.

The Dream acts as the sylvari’s protection, however.

It also forsees the future and is a physical place to enter.

It’s also outright stated to not be a hive mind by sylvari (Ghosts of Ascalon, page 21).

I think we should take everything an ordinary NPC says with a grain of salt. The Sylvari may not experience the Dream as a hive mind (and frankly it doesn’t act like one, since we, the players, would otherwise be unable to control our characters) because the Pale Tree is not using its power to control them or is blocking the one who is trying to control the Sylvari.

Anyhow, I don’t think that dragon corruption in general is working like a hive mind, it seemed like the Risen in Orr have a personality, atleast the higher-ups, and that they act like Zhaitan wants them to, rather than Zhaitan controlling them directly.

As for physically entering the Dream, I’d take that with a grain of salt too, since the way it was dispalyed how we entered the Dream could very well have been restricted by the engine. Meaning, that, for the sake of the game, the way we entered the Dream is not exactly the way it would usually work.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Some of the major ‘selling points’ Anet has been throwing about the plot of Heart of Thorns is how sylvari deal with the fact that they’re dragon minions, etc. etc.
Mordrem, however, appear to “grow” from the trees. There is no uncorrupted state. Corpses and living creatures are merely used as templates (not too dissimilar from destroyers which also mimic living beings in shape). But effectively, the mordrem don’t seem to be coming from some uncorrupted state (unlike destroyers).
This counteracts EVERYTHING we’ve seen about dragon minions and Elder Dragons – that they corrupt living, dead, and land and destroy what they don’t twist, but they never create; never any case of e.g., sexual reproduction… Until Mordremoth.

Which makes Mordremoth an odd-ball of the group. And for no apparent reason…

Here’s an interesting thought: if Zhaitain is the opposing sphere of influence and the one who happened to corrupt by killing the living, then who’s to say that Mordremoth doesn’t do the opposite? That is, corrupting the dead by giving them life?

What if Mordremoth is doing something far more sinister than just using bodies and templates to create minions from scratch? What if he’s going a step further by “stealing” the souls of these murdered victims through the mists, and then mentally corrupting these said souls through a pocket dimension that we know of as the Dream/Nightmare?

This would explain a number of mysteries hinted throughout the personal and the living world narrative. While the plant aspect of Mordremoth is heavily emphasized in Heart of
Thorns, we have to keep in mind that also posses the sphere of mind and to what effects and degree we don’t yet know.

However, we did get a taste of how his corruption process works thanks to the nightmare court mentioned in the sylvari personal story and the Tower of Nightmares event from season 1.

In the latter, Scarlet created what was essentially an artificial mock-up of a “pale tree” with the help of some Nightmare Court and the Krait, and this was the Toxic nightmare tower. The tower essentially brought a taste of the corruption experienced in the Dream/Nightmare out into the real world, allowing non-sylvari to become intoxicated by it. Through the intoxication, people not only saw their worst fears come to life, but also experienced the fears of others through a hive-mind process of shared illusions and memories. Not all too different from what Sylvari experience in the dream or nightmare.

Essentially, Mordremoth corrupts the soul through mental torture and brainwashing, very much indicating that dream is that “hive mind” foundation for Modrem minions. Even more so that old minions can continue respawning themselves time and time again with their memories and personalities intact – this alone already implies that the soul or “knowledge” of the said minion returns back to dream until it is reborn anew through a “pale” tree.

And going back to the Tower of Nightmares, it’s important to note that the tower also bloomed the Toxic Hybrid, which took the vague, copied form of a Krait. The Krait themselves are an incredibly xenophobic race at large who were only interested in the alliance because Scarlet promised that it would result in the incarnation of one of their prophets – which is what the Toxic Hybrid was.

Further indicating that the modrem trees could – or do – reincarnate the souls of the dead and rebirth them into new, plantlike forms. After all, the Pale Tree was planted on a human grave, and there’s a popular theory going around that Zhaitan will want to corrupt Trahearne and Caladbolg so that he can have access to Orr and all of the dead things seated there.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So why is this such an experience of horror? Only the greenhorns of the Pact would really see such as an ‘experience of horror.’ Yet it seems even Orrian veterans do.
So again, this feels like the plot is making a huge deal out of old stuff or things that rightfully they shouldn’t know.
So can someone explain to me why old situations are suddenly “omg drama!” and why the sylvari and Mordremoth are black sheep amongst dragons and their minions? Because as it stands, this entire plot we’re being told feels like “we did it cuz its cool, yo, forget consistency!”

After killing enough risen, you usually get the indication that their souls and minds are freed once they’re ‘rekilled’ again, saying dialogue like “so tired…” “rest…” “at last…” “the light fades…” “what have I done,” etc. But that’s not the case for mordrem. The horror may come from the fact that modrem corruption can’t even be freed through death, thanks to the souls’ ties to the dream/nightmare. That they just keep coming back and fighting no matter what.

Maybe that’s what Mallyck’s role as the harbinger is? The mental corruption can’t truly end until the dream is cleansed in some way or form. Or until the sylvari can properly sever they’re ties to the dream with no after-effects.

That leaves a huge question though: if Mordremoth does corrupt souls and “rebirth” them into new plant forms as minions, then how does he have the power to access the mists in order to do so? Maybe this has something to do with the eternal alchemy cutscene in season 2, or why Scarlet frequently traveled the mists, for whatever reasons.

Overall tldr; it’s too early to judge as there’s a lot more we need to discover and figure out.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

3. Facing horror of fighting old comrades turned mordrem

These dragon minions present a personal threat to the remnants of the Pac

[…]

Although they’ve undergone physical changes to make themselves hardier and larger, Mordrem Guard maintain some aspects of their previous identity; members of the Pact may experience the horror of recognizing their former comrades among Mordremoth’s forces.

Again, so what? This is not new.

This is the Pact we’re talking about. They’re the veterans of Orr, where as that very article states their dead companions came back as dragon minions. With mordrem, they might be fighitng their old comrades – or more often miniosn that copy the appearance and potentially knowledge of their old comrades… but hours and days after the old comrade’s death (except in case of sylvari).

But this was true in Orr too. And even worse in Orr, they could be fighting former comrades SECONDS after said comrades’ deaths (as shown in both Edge of Destiny and Sea of Sorrows, as well as some story instances and events, corpses can turn into risen fast – before hitting the ground, even).

So why is this such an experience of horror? Only the greenhorns of the Pact would really see such as an ‘experience of horror.’ Yet it seems even Orrian veterans do.

So again, this feels like the plot is making a huge deal out of old stuff or things that rightfully they shouldn’t know.

So can someone explain to me why old situations are suddenly “omg drama!” and why the sylvari and Mordremoth are black sheep amongst dragons and their minions? Because as it stands, this entire plot we’re being told feels like “we did it cuz its cool, yo, forget consistency!”

I think the thing you’re overlooking with this is that is new, at least for sylvari. Up until now sylvari have been known for being “immune” to dragon corruption. This comes up several times in Orr, it’s one of the reasons the Pale Reavers were formed in the first place. Generally speaking the sylvari’s immunity to corruption wasn’t really questioned too much and was seen as a major boon for Pact forces.

With that in mind I do think the quote could have been worded better and makes a lot more sense if it’s intended for the point of view of an uncorrupted sylvari.

Consider their situation: Everything you knew about yourself and your capabilities when fighting dragon magic just dropped out. You’ve dealt with comrades being corrupted in Orr, sure, but as a sylvari you were always certain that should the worst come to pass neither you nor your allies would have to deal with you turning on them. Now you’ve got dragon siren songs in your head and you see your ally sylvari corrupted into monstrous forms and have to deal with the fact that this could be you. This is a facet of the horror of dragon corruption that no sylvari has had to face before.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s more than just Kellach and Rissa. You also have some hearts in Sparkfly and Bloodtide – such as the aforementioned Help Ayomichi slow the spread of Risen corruption. In most cases, meaning via the hearts, Zhaitan’s corruption on the living takes the shape of disease that slowly kills them. Which is the same as the amulets that Rissa had used.

That doesnt disprove the theory though. Pretty much like with Kellach if you’re living corruption works more like a poison. It slowly kills you/drives you insane but you do not fall under Zaithans influence until you’re dead because unlike other Dragons Zaithan doesnt seem able to control the living.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

It suggests that they can corrupt the same things, and aside from element their corruption takes the same ultimate form, but how they go about corrupting differs slightly.

I guess part of the crux of the matter is what you consider corruption is. there are different forms of corruptions. You have Taking control of creatures, Creating Creatures, Killing Stuff, changing stuff as well as imbuing objects to transfer corruption around.

Primordus for example seems to create creatures just like modremoth. Destroyers arent living beings that have been corrupted like modrem/sylvari they have been created too. Now granted we’ve never seen a destroyer thats not under Primordus influence but its also true we’ve never seen destroyers with a high mental capacity like Sylvari so that may simply be Primordus likes to play it safe and doesnt create minions with a high enough brain capacity that they me able to resist imprinting so to speak.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

You likely speak of Almorra’s backstory. But according to interviews, she was just outside the path of corruption – just on the edge of what would become the Dragonbrand, while her warband was inside (though this doesn’t fit up with her retelling in GoA).

All those within the Dragonbrand as Kralkatorrik flew past were corrupted.

I think you may be right, you’re lore knowledge is phenomenal, its awesome you knew just like that what I was referring too. I reread the backstory again and there are some interesting bits there on the subject. 1. Doesnt seem like Almorra was outside the corruption infact at the time she was shaking her second in command who had succumbed to fear. The story also states that after the fighting was finished “The curse the dragon laid upon the land stretched for untold miles in the direction of the flight” Now granted that doesnt necessarily mean she was in the middle of it. But perhaps more importantly is that Almorra states all her warband was twisted in some way but they were fighting each other. Now thats interesting because that may suggest they all got "infected’ but that not all fell under Kralkatorrik’s control which wouldnt be that different from what sylvari are going through in a way.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why does Zhaitan focus on corrupting corpses?

Why does Primordus focus on corrupting rock?

Because thats what they’re able to influence but there is a difference between what you can influence and how you go about it. Jormag can influence Norn but choses to focus on having them seek the corruption rather then forcing it on them. nothing in the lore suggests he can only corrupt willing subjects though does it?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There’s a very clear case of personal preference in the subjects that the dragons corrupt. He clearly doesn’t care about his army. Not only does he not refuse forced converts, but he doesn’t care that Sons of Svanir hunt down icebrood – and they do, as indicated in the dialogue at The Barrowstead as well as the lore for why we see no female norn icebrood (sons of svanir kill them). To use Jeff Grubb’s explanation, Jormag just goes “oh look, the black ants are killing the red ants, who cares.”

I am not suggesting Jormag is all empathy and such only that he may feel willing subjects will be more motivated so to speak than though forcefully converted. Why throw away an edge no matter how small that may be?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1. Why don’t sylvari eat magic.
2. Why don’t sylvari have a hive mind.
3. Why don’t sylvari come from unaltered materials.
4. Why aren’t sylvari mostly mindless.

etc. etc. etc.

1. They may not have had a chance to yet. Currently in game timeline is a bit wacky Its hard to say how much time has passed between Modremoth waking up and the pact fleet attack. Also Modremoth is miles away deep in the jungle. When the pact attacked thats when Modremoth actually took the sylvari over and at that point … this point? (we dont know how long ago pact fleet attack was. When we get to verdant blink, the ships are still burning so it cant be that long) Its main target isnt to consume magic its to defend itself for a potential threat. IE Magic consumption might still be coming.

2. The Sylvari do have a hive mind but it doesnt seem to click until they’re under the dragon’s influence. Personal story episode 1 of HoT (spoiler alert for those who didnt play the beta yet)

There is also Scarlet, she could also hear modremoth. Infact the whole Modremoth taking over sylvari seems to happen inside a hive mind. It may just be that the hive mind is simply centered on Modremoth itself. We dont know if this is the case with other dragons too.

3. They may, I mean at their core they’re plant material.

4. same reason why jormag may prefer willing subjects, Modremoth might feel it will get an edge with more intelligent minions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Supposedly Heart of Thorns takes place approximately 24 hours after the Pact Fleet crashes.

True but we do not know if there were sylvari already in the area before the pact arrived. We do know from Malyck that sylvari arent just exclusive to the magumma region it could be that Modremoth created clusters all around including in the heart of the magumma. Though its far fetched, we should have come across unchanged sylvari under modremoths influence if this was the case and I dont believe we did in either beta weekend. Of course its also possible most of the pact’s turned sylvari were killed by the pact when they turned. They were hugely outnumbered after all.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And you just stated my point – Mordremoth’s a plant-corrupting dragon. So why come to the conclusion “sylvari are dragon minions” and not “sylvari are corruptible by Mordremoth”.

Because it fits, it may not be the only conclusion but its a pretty good one. Sylvari appeared right around the time dragons started awaking. While not conclusive sylvari are created by a different entity (tree -> sylvari rather then Sylvari->Sylvari) Unlike other races sylvari share the same element with the their dragon. I mean if you think about it Sylvari share a lot more like destroyers then other corrupted creates and no one is going to conclude destroyers are corrupted rather then dragon minions. Perhaps more importantly Modremoth might have told them when he called them to him and if he did, one of the sylvari might have told the others.

Galen Grey.4709:

If dragons need life every 10k to consume they may very well have designed sterile minions to give life the chance it would need to recover.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So why is Mordremoth different?

That’s the crux of my point. Mordremoth is different. Vastly different than all other dragons.

Why?

To me, the answer is “cuz rule of cool” and that’s just sad.

How is Modremoth different in this respect? Because he didnt yet start consuming magic that we know off? I mean vines attacked waypoints (could it be modremoth absorbing the magic?) Vines also grow towards laylines… again going after magic? Its important to note we’re technically in the prologue of the story. The story hasnt even began yet its a bit premature to judge whats its all about.

If you’re right, it would be really sad I agree but looking at the story there is a lot of love there. I mean they’ve been building towards this since before launch and its not like the story cannot be cool unless it breaks free from the existing lore. Though what worries me isnt the pursuit of cool but rather player feedback. A lot of feedback shoots down the story because it isnt grandiose enough so to speak if they had to break from lore I fear that may be more the reason then anything else. But personally I think they’re doing a good job. I mean we can discuss so many threats with regards to a single subject its just prove there is a lot of depth and it would be a pity to throw all that away.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

1) Zhaitan did corrupt the living – see Corporal Kellach (human PS), Necromancer Rissa (charr PS), and the Sparkfly Fen heart Help Ayomichi slow the spread of Risen corruption – furthermore, throughout Orr, Bloodtide Coast, Sparkfly Fen, and the last two chapters of the personal story (Greatest Fear and Orr), we learn that Zhaitan corrupts not just corpses and the living, but plants, the land, air, and water as well.

If Zhaitan was able to corrupt te land and air, it’s very much possible that Mordermoth is also corrupting the land and air and with that the nutrions in the land(soil) ,I mean it’s just all molecules. If the nutrions needed for the plantlife to grow are corrupted that would make corrupted plants(mordrem).

Tim.6450:

Also wouldn’t it be logical for an elder dragon to create instead of corrupt? Elder dragons are not dumb, so learning from the mistakes of zhaitan is not illogical. One of the things the pact did was negating the ability to corrupt (with the krait orb and destroying the ship full of corpses).

The only issue is that Elder Dragons by their nature corrupt. Their very presence corrupts. Kralky just by flying over the land left the Brand, and Zhaitan corrupted the Orr and numerous Orrion artefacts. So Mordy is the odd one out. It could still be explained in some way (maybe the other EDs destroy but Mordy regrows the plant life to prepare for the next rise? Maybe the death of Zhaitan triggered the restoration process).

Kodama.6453:

About sylvari: there IS a hive sense, like you already said discussed the dream, but the pale tree sylvari just seperated from the mordrem part with their own little “island”. They are still in the system, but got a barrier between them and mordrem.

Or it’s not so much a network (i.e. minions communicate with each other. Sort of saw this with the Great Destroyer) so much as a hierarchy i.e. lower minions communicate with higher level minions etc. and with Mordy absent this hierarchy wasn’t in place.

djsarcher.9263:

I think part of the issue here is we are dealing with too many unknowns, or things that we’ve interpreted.

Welcome to GW2 lore… It’s very frustrating.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If it works for 4.5 of the dragon minions (even mordrem attend to these similarities – yet sylvari do not), then why wouldn’t it fit for that last .5?

Because full on modrem-mode wasn’t activated? Oh I’m sure they suck up plenty of magic when they go Modrem Guard.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The only way they’d know is if the surviving sylvari told them. But why would they?

Well Sylvari at large are characterised as a bright eyed and naive race. Presumably not too many of the Pack Sylvari would be hardened warriors and would feel it is important to share this information. Possibly some might not have initially known what had occurred and might have shared their experiences with fellow Pack members to try and make sense of it.

Kossage.9072:

Yeah, this is what confused me about LW Season 2 too. A simple fix would be adding a page about Mordremoth to the Elder Dragons book in DR if it was meant to be common knowledge

There’s a book by Ogden Stonehealer in Scarlet’s secret room in LS2, all ANet needs to do is literally add “Mordremoth” and “Modrem” to that little book.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If they’re like Glint, then like Glint they should still consume magic. No?

Presumably minions absorb magic for the EDs. So in the absence of an active ED there isn’t much need to absorb magic. Of course we only have 2 examples of minions active without there being an active ED and that is the Sylvari and Great Destroyer (and I don’t remember the Great Destroyer absorbing magic).

djsarcher.9263:

If the Blighting trees are essentially corrupted equivalents to the pale tree (and apparently the intended form if we look from Mordremoths perspective), surely then the Sylvari weren’t the intended minions, but Mordrem Guard are?

Well yeah. The Pale Tree is the one who pops out Sylvari and Fern Hounds, so maybe their inconsistency is as a result of that.