Guild Wars 2

While neither one of the two games you mentioned specifically have leveling as their progression tactic, they both do still require progression of some type.

As true as it is irrelevant.

Nobody is arguing that there shouldn’t be “progression of some type.” The point of contention is those who do not believe that this progression should be locked behind grinding out XP.

In the case of Castlevania, I suppose the argument can be made that one can progress through the game without acquiring any kind of upgrade at all,

In the SotN+ games, to fully unlock the map you do need to earn the upgrades, but while many of those games did have an XP system, you could theoretically unlock the entire map on level 1 if you could manage to beat the various bosses. All XP did was increase your combat stats, leveling did not unlock any of the required traversal options.

The point is, if you’re going to compare HoT to a Metroidvania, yes, you would need to unlock masteries in the wild, like that point on the pinnacle you can see right inside VB, but once you get those you could apply them instantly, and not have to grind out millions of XP first.

I mean, you can defend the current system if you like it, fair enough, but don’t besmirch Metroid of Castlevania by using them as justification for it.

I think a lot of your disappointment has to do with you not hitting masteries fast enough, but it looks like you were able to finish BWE3 averaging a mastery a day

Remember though that the rate seems to slow down the more you have, so a mastery a day is decent enough for the first few days, but that sounds like it would translate to a mastery a month once you get deeper into the trees.

Sidenti.6035:

MyriadStars.5679:

I don’t mind making slow progress on mastery with my limited amount of play time for this xpac, but my biggest concern is that Anet might keep shrinking the size of their development team if they are convinced that players are all fine with what they do in HOT. You know, it’s a lot easier to create grindy stuff and gated content, than creating new and fun content that requires creativity and more effort to design. If we give Anet the impression that what they do for HOT is fine, then it is likely that they will just keep the fewest programmers necessary to create grindy stuff, to decrease the cost and maximize their profit. This will eventually kill GW2.

…buddy, have you ever considered just taking up a new game or something? It sounds like you have a lot of anger issues directed toward ANet at this point and I don’t know if there can ever be a resolution that will satisfy you.

I’m actually not being a smartkitten here. I’m serious. Throughout the whole course of this thread, you have steadfastly refused to cut ANet even the semblance of a break – it’s all conspiracy theories and random vitriol.

Maybe it’s time to step back and away, if a game’s got you that locked-in mentally. -Sid

I seriously think that it is you who have anger issues. When someone criticizes HOT, you often treat it as if it were a criticism directed towards yourself. Other people who do not agree with the criticism normally just argue whether the criticism is valid, but you sometimes even go a step further to say unkind words.

And don’t worry whether Anet needs a break from criticisms. A great company will learn from criticisms to build up their success. Take Blizzard for example. When they released Diablo 3, the game was sold for 12 million copies in 2012, and 30 million copies by now. However, if you checked the battle.net forums in 2012, you would see that many people were criticizing Blizzard for ruining the game. The criticisms were 10 times harsher than the criticisms here. What did Blizzard do? They didn’t delete or lock any posts. Instead, their removed the person who was in charge of the design of Diablo 3, closed the auction house, and added fun content and changed the gameplay in the xpac Reaper of Souls. Afterwards, the vast majority of the players agree that Reaper of Souls improved the game greatly, and it is the Diablo 3 that people want.

Let’s get back to HOT. When GW2 was released, it was innovative compared to other MMO, and what they said in their manifesto was essentially true. However, HOT made GW2 more like traditional MMOs, and I think it’s a step backward in the MMO revolution. Of course, this is just my opinion, but many others also think the same. It is important to let Anet know this, so that they may make the xpac after HOT an innovative one.

Ohoni.6057:

While neither one of the two games you mentioned specifically have leveling as their progression tactic, they both do still require progression of some type.

As true as it is irrelevant.

Nobody is arguing that there shouldn’t be “progression of some type.” The point of contention is those who do not believe that this progression should be locked behind grinding out XP.

In the case of Castlevania, I suppose the argument can be made that one can progress through the game without acquiring any kind of upgrade at all,

In the SotN+ games, to fully unlock the map you do need to earn the upgrades, but while many of those games did have an XP system, you could theoretically unlock the entire map on level 1 if you could manage to beat the various bosses. All XP did was increase your combat stats, leveling did not unlock any of the required traversal options.

The point is, if you’re going to compare HoT to a Metroidvania, yes, you would need to unlock masteries in the wild, like that point on the pinnacle you can see right inside VB, but once you get those you could apply them instantly, and not have to grind out millions of XP first.

I mean, you can defend the current system if you like it, fair enough, but don’t besmirch Metroid of Castlevania by using them as justification for it.

I think a lot of your disappointment has to do with you not hitting masteries fast enough, but it looks like you were able to finish BWE3 averaging a mastery a day

Remember though that the rate seems to slow down the more you have, so a mastery a day is decent enough for the first few days, but that sounds like it would translate to a mastery a month once you get deeper into the trees.

this is the truth, the reality is the mastery system is essntially opposite of metroid/vania/zelda systems which have progression through goals, and exploration, whereas mastery give you progression based strictly on exp.

It does have its strengths though, i am surprised you dont like it Ohoni? it basically lets you play how you want to progress. While zelda/vania/metroid focus on unique rewards for going places and doing things, masteries focuses on doing whatever you like doing many times to move forward.

I do feel like its gonna feel bad for HoT though, with only 4 maps, you are basically guaranteeing tons of monotony.

It does have its strengths though, i am surprised you dont like it Ohoni? it basically lets you play how you want to progress. While zelda/vania/metroid focus on unique rewards for going places and doing things, masteries focuses on doing whatever you like doing many times to move forward.

True. I suppose it’s all things in balance though. I don’t mind going to a place and doing a thing once. The point that it bothers me is when either A. you’re then forced to repeat it dozens of times, whether you enjoyed it the first time or not^, B. You’re asked to do way to many individual tasks, so that it becomes some massive checklist rather than specific tasks for specific rewards, or C. Where an individual task is more difficult than it should be, relative to other tasks in the game^^. Whenever one of those lines is crossed, it moves from fun to work.

For the Masteries I don’t have any problem with being able to level them in any order you like, or that you can collect the Mastery Points to spend in any order you like, I just don’t appreciate that every time after you complete a Mastery you have to grind out another batch of XP before you can spend your next point, even if you have several in reserve.

^ Not that I mind repetition, it’s a necessary evil in MMOs, but if you have to repeat something it should be something of your choosing, not something chosen for you.

^^ Such as when a given task is so difficult that most players are not expected to be able to pass it. They can have these for those that enjoy them, but they should not gate off other content or rewards that other players might want.