Guild Wars 2

So, GW2 is now just like every other MMO on the market. We’ve degenerated into raiders vs. non-raiders, the haves and the have-nots, the best gear (stat-switching anytime, particle effects) on raiders and crap on everyone else.

Cool. Figured this would happen eventually.

Another " I don’t want this type of content because it’s too hard for me and i can’t get what i want, because i’m too lazy to get it and so i feel like my opinion on it is a must because i say so" post. OP if you don’t want to do raid content don’t do it then, no one is forcing you to do it, second, what do you expect? get everything easy? if you want something fight for it, this is the essence of games, would Mario Bros be awesome if you just took a special coin at the start and you finish the game without any kind of effort? would Link from Legend of Zelda be as fun as it is if Link just took the triforce and just kill Ganondorf with it at the beginning, no saving Hyrule, not doing the awesome dungeons working your way through to save the land? Would Final Fantasy be a good rpg, if you just managed to get all magics, armors, weapons, summons etc without any kind of effort by just buying your way through with money? NO, they would be in fact boring games, it’s about time Guild Wars 2 started to be an MMORPG, not a Skin Wars 2 Simulation where you just buy your way through without any kind of effort, this game needs challenge, it needs a sense of accomplishment far beyond from what we may have.

If you don’t like raiding that’s fine, but don’t feel entitled to because it’s your opinion, not everyone shares your opinion, be mindful of that. On a final note, just play the game, have fun, Raiding in Gw2 doesn’t mean it’s gonna be WOW raiding. Exclusive rewards is a must, that encourages adventure, excitement and a sense of accomplishment, it’s not about elitism, it’s about having fun, and feeling like you finished something that has meaning, something you could share with others so the others might try it too and feel it too.

lol I remember why I stay away from this forum usually…

People will complain about anything. You can change stats on ascended gear easily already btw. Legendary weapons already have the options to swap stats as well. Raids won’t suddenly mean the rest of the game stops existing. There has always been a hardcore community in GW2, several in fact : WvWers, PvPers, Dungeon/Fractal runners, Teq/Wurm runners and AP hunters are all people that put in TONS of hours into this game, and have since release.

Just because you are satisfied running around Queensdale for 12 hours a day killing regular mobs that do 0 damage, doesn’t mean the rest of us are. This game is good because it has aspects that EVERYONE want.

You guys are the ones trying to be exclusive by removing everything you don’t want in this game. The devs, on the other hand, are giving a little bit to everyone and doing their best to please as many crowds as they can.

GW2 has always had grind if you wanted to do it before, and that is not changing. You can still play as casually as you want.

Exclusive skins for certain game modes/challenges are not an issue.

Finally, “toxic raider culture”? REALLY?! I have no words for that one besides laughing… and I’m not even a huge raid runner (in GW1 I ran the elite areas a few times for completion’s sake but I didn’t farm them like a lot of other people did; I still appreciated them because I know they were an integral part of the game for many people).

What’s clear in this thread is that there are many people that play Guild Wars 2 one hour a week, that know nothing about this game and the multiple communities dedicated to the different activities to do in the game, and think everyone else does nothing but Silverwastes all day like they do.

Reality check, this game has a LOT of different people playing in many different ways and the only ones complaining that raids get legendary armor are those that don’t take part in any of the communities this game has to offer and just wander around aimlessly in the open world and expect to get everything handed to them on a silver platter.

Games that give you everything for no effort have no lifespan. GW2 succeeds at making people want to keep chasing skins, titles, achievements and victory in many different game modes at once. If they took that away, they would be left with a lifeless game.

Celtic Lady.3729:

So, GW2 is now just like every other MMO on the market. We’ve degenerated into raiders vs. non-raiders, the haves and the have-nots, the best gear (stat-switching anytime, particle effects) on raiders and crap on everyone else.

Cool. Figured this would happen eventually.

Everything you have just said, in your heart of hearts, was a complete and utter lie.

Even before Raids have been released you are thinking players are going to as you put it ‘degenerate’ into Raiders and create conflict.

You even went so far as to consider stat-switching and particle effects something of an elitist stigma.

…Please tell me this was an elaborate troll, no one is this disingenuous.

Celtic Lady.3729:

So, GW2 is now just like every other MMO on the market. We’ve degenerated into raiders vs. non-raiders, the haves and the have-nots, the best gear (stat-switching anytime, particle effects) on raiders and crap on everyone else.

Cool. Figured this would happen eventually.

It’s an issue in other games because their raids have gear that is absolutely better, in a sense of vertical progression. Those that have it, have a more effective and powerful character.

What makes GW2 what it is, is largely the fact that it lacks that barrier between player types. And it will continue lacking that barrier even if legendary armor has no alternative than to raid.

It’s a skin and a QoL/convenience feature, not better gear.

Bearhugger.4326:

Ohoni.6057:

Comparisons are valid when they’re valid. They aren’t when they aren’t. You can’t compare WoW to anything that isn’t WoW, and you can’t compare FF14 to anything that isn’t based on a popular license. If FF14 is not crushing GW2 then that means GW2 is far and away better on its own merits. Wildstar is a valid comparison because it’s a unique IP MMO that has very similar gameplay to GW2’s, and yet focused on hardcore raiders, got all of them they could possibly expect, and it turns out that still wasn’t enough to keep a game running.

What? Is WoW is some sort of divine game that no mere mortal can create a product that can compete with? I have an active WoW sub and my entire guild only logs in to raid, myself included. Furthermore, the current expansion was terrible, there won’t be any more content until the next expansion which is due for mid 2016, and the game is bleeding subs at an alarming rate.

If Arenanet wants to charm the disappointed WoW players with raid content, there hasn’t been a better time to do so, and I’m pretty happy to see them try it because I think GW2 has been better than WoW in everything except group PvE.

In fact I think the picture would have been quite different if the game had compelling PvE content on day one.

While some former WoW players will surely appreciate raiding, it should be noted that there are plenty of WoW players that despise raids. These are the players who had the worst time in WoD, because in that expansion raids were the only relevant content, except maybe garrisons, which were just a boring facebook game.

Anet has done a good job catering to players of all game modes so far, while maintaining some rewards that are unique for each game mode. Hopefully, raids will be just one of the many supported game modes, instead of the focus like in the current iteration of WoW.

Ganathar.4956:

Bearhugger.4326:

Ohoni.6057:

Comparisons are valid when they’re valid. They aren’t when they aren’t. You can’t compare WoW to anything that isn’t WoW, and you can’t compare FF14 to anything that isn’t based on a popular license. If FF14 is not crushing GW2 then that means GW2 is far and away better on its own merits. Wildstar is a valid comparison because it’s a unique IP MMO that has very similar gameplay to GW2’s, and yet focused on hardcore raiders, got all of them they could possibly expect, and it turns out that still wasn’t enough to keep a game running.

What? Is WoW is some sort of divine game that no mere mortal can create a product that can compete with? I have an active WoW sub and my entire guild only logs in to raid, myself included. Furthermore, the current expansion was terrible, there won’t be any more content until the next expansion which is due for mid 2016, and the game is bleeding subs at an alarming rate.

If Arenanet wants to charm the disappointed WoW players with raid content, there hasn’t been a better time to do so, and I’m pretty happy to see them try it because I think GW2 has been better than WoW in everything except group PvE.

In fact I think the picture would have been quite different if the game had compelling PvE content on day one.

While some former WoW players will surely appreciate raiding, it should be noted that there are plenty of WoW players that despise raids. These are the players who had the worst time in WoD, because in that expansion raids were the only relevant content, except maybe garrisons, which were just a boring facebook game.

Anet has done a good job catering to players of all game modes so far, while maintaining some rewards that are unique for each game mode. Hopefully, raids will be just one of the many supported game modes, instead of the focus like in the current iteration of WoW.

• 4 new triple tiered open world areas with event chains similar to Silverwastes/Dry Top
• Masteries and Adventures
• Tons of new collections
• New PvP map/mode
• New WvW Borderlands
• Changes to fractals to make them shorter and more accessible
• Raids

There is no need to worry. ArenaNET is hellbent on making sure everyone gets a piece of the pie. Hell, as someone who primarily enjoys dungeons/fractals it’s been a struggle since release with barely any new content targeting those areas of the game, but at the end of the day I understand that they are trying to make a complete game and not a one dimensional game so I suffered through it (and I still enjoy pvp, open world, etc so it’s not like it was too hard).

Like others have said, this isn’t like raids in other MMOs because you DON’T GET BETTER GEAR!

*EDIT : Forgot the Guild Halls and changes to guild missions to make sure more guilds besides 500 man ones can do the new content.

Kurr.4179:

Ganathar.4956:

Bearhugger.4326:

Ohoni.6057:

Comparisons are valid when they’re valid. They aren’t when they aren’t. You can’t compare WoW to anything that isn’t WoW, and you can’t compare FF14 to anything that isn’t based on a popular license. If FF14 is not crushing GW2 then that means GW2 is far and away better on its own merits. Wildstar is a valid comparison because it’s a unique IP MMO that has very similar gameplay to GW2’s, and yet focused on hardcore raiders, got all of them they could possibly expect, and it turns out that still wasn’t enough to keep a game running.

What? Is WoW is some sort of divine game that no mere mortal can create a product that can compete with? I have an active WoW sub and my entire guild only logs in to raid, myself included. Furthermore, the current expansion was terrible, there won’t be any more content until the next expansion which is due for mid 2016, and the game is bleeding subs at an alarming rate.

If Arenanet wants to charm the disappointed WoW players with raid content, there hasn’t been a better time to do so, and I’m pretty happy to see them try it because I think GW2 has been better than WoW in everything except group PvE.

In fact I think the picture would have been quite different if the game had compelling PvE content on day one.

While some former WoW players will surely appreciate raiding, it should be noted that there are plenty of WoW players that despise raids. These are the players who had the worst time in WoD, because in that expansion raids were the only relevant content, except maybe garrisons, which were just a boring facebook game.

Anet has done a good job catering to players of all game modes so far, while maintaining some rewards that are unique for each game mode. Hopefully, raids will be just one of the many supported game modes, instead of the focus like in the current iteration of WoW.

• 4 new triple tiered open world areas with event chains similar to Silverwastes/Dry Top
• Masteries and Adventures
• Tons of new collections
• New PvP map/mode
• New WvW Borderlands
• Changes to fractals to make them shorter and more accessible
• Raids

There is no need to worry. ArenaNET is hellbent on making sure everyone gets a piece of the pie. Hell, as someone who primarily enjoys dungeons/fractals it’s been a struggle since release with barely any new content targeting those areas of the game, but at the end of the day I understand that they are trying to make a complete game and not a one dimensional game so I suffered through it (and I still enjoy pvp, open world, etc so it’s not like it was too hard).

Like others have said, this isn’t like raids in other MMOs because you DON’T GET BETTER GEAR!

Don’t get me wrong, I know that Anet are doing a good job so far. My only worry is that there are only 2 open world PvE armor sets and that no PvP armor has been announced so far. But I guess that it may be that way because this expansion is the “systems change” expansion.

Ganathar.4956:

Kurr.4179:

Ganathar.4956:

Bearhugger.4326:

Ohoni.6057:

Comparisons are valid when they’re valid. They aren’t when they aren’t. You can’t compare WoW to anything that isn’t WoW, and you can’t compare FF14 to anything that isn’t based on a popular license. If FF14 is not crushing GW2 then that means GW2 is far and away better on its own merits. Wildstar is a valid comparison because it’s a unique IP MMO that has very similar gameplay to GW2’s, and yet focused on hardcore raiders, got all of them they could possibly expect, and it turns out that still wasn’t enough to keep a game running.

What? Is WoW is some sort of divine game that no mere mortal can create a product that can compete with? I have an active WoW sub and my entire guild only logs in to raid, myself included. Furthermore, the current expansion was terrible, there won’t be any more content until the next expansion which is due for mid 2016, and the game is bleeding subs at an alarming rate.

If Arenanet wants to charm the disappointed WoW players with raid content, there hasn’t been a better time to do so, and I’m pretty happy to see them try it because I think GW2 has been better than WoW in everything except group PvE.

In fact I think the picture would have been quite different if the game had compelling PvE content on day one.

While some former WoW players will surely appreciate raiding, it should be noted that there are plenty of WoW players that despise raids. These are the players who had the worst time in WoD, because in that expansion raids were the only relevant content, except maybe garrisons, which were just a boring facebook game.

Anet has done a good job catering to players of all game modes so far, while maintaining some rewards that are unique for each game mode. Hopefully, raids will be just one of the many supported game modes, instead of the focus like in the current iteration of WoW.

• 4 new triple tiered open world areas with event chains similar to Silverwastes/Dry Top
• Masteries and Adventures
• Tons of new collections
• New PvP map/mode
• New WvW Borderlands
• Changes to fractals to make them shorter and more accessible
• Raids

There is no need to worry. ArenaNET is hellbent on making sure everyone gets a piece of the pie. Hell, as someone who primarily enjoys dungeons/fractals it’s been a struggle since release with barely any new content targeting those areas of the game, but at the end of the day I understand that they are trying to make a complete game and not a one dimensional game so I suffered through it (and I still enjoy pvp, open world, etc so it’s not like it was too hard).

Like others have said, this isn’t like raids in other MMOs because you DON’T GET BETTER GEAR!

Don’t get me wrong, I know that Anet are doing a good job so far. My only worry is that there are only 2 open world PvE armor sets and that no PvP armor has been announced so far. But I guess that it may be that way because this expansion is the “systems change” expansion.

I’m not going to post data-mined stuff here but several new armor sets have been data-mined since January and I’m 90% sure a least 1 of them is a PvP set (well, 1×3 armor types) as ladder reward, as it looks like a PvP armor.

I don’t expect hundreds of new sets, I’ll agree with that. But we won’t be getting just 1 or 2 sets as far as I know.

If we want to get really technical and picky with gear being “better”, there are certainly advantages to not having a single set of gear that you can stat swap.

Someone with two sets of armor, each runed for its own purpose, is going to have an advantage over your single legendary set. Unless you really want to buy a new set of strength runes every time you swap to zerker/DPS stats.

You also get different armor looks, without using trans charges with every style swap.

Kimyrielle.3826:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

I love how it took only a few hours for toxic raider culture to take root in the forums.

ITT: literally every reason raids have a bad name in so many other games.

Seriously. I wonder how these people managed to stay in a game for three years that according to them catered only to these casuals they obviously feel only contempt for. It’s not that there wouldn’t have been alternatives available for their taste. But noooo, they had to bring their elitism, bragging and toxic culture to the only game not having it so far. GG

Let’s be fair, some of this isn’t “toxic raider culture”. It’s “toxic forum culture”.

mrstealth.6701:

Windsagio.1340:

mrstealth.6701:

Malediktus.9250:

Since legendary armor is cosmetic only and offers no stat advantage over ascended, there is no issue if non raiders cannot get it.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. The only difference between this and existing legendaries is that it might require something needing a party. And that’s assuming these items won’t be made available in pve, like the current dungeon tokens are.

I would certainly prefer that they give the reward track option. It does open up another (likely less efficient) option for those with no interest/time for larger-party gameplay. But the fact that’s a primarily cosmetic thing doesn’t make that an important thing to add.

Legendaries aren’t just skin swapping, you also usually get infinite stat swaps on them, it’s a nice QOL bonus

It’s a quite costly QoL bonus, though. For the time/money/effort put into a legendary, you could change stats on an ascended item quote a few times. That does come at the cost of losing runes, but stat swapping legendary armor is also very likely going to make the rune obsolete, or sub-optimal at best.

I still have alternate weapons for my legendaries (even if they’re using the same skin) just because I still need new sigils along with the stat change.

Still, though, I’d like to see alternates for obtaining as many legendary materials as possible. PvP reward tracks could cover a lot of them, as they do with dungeon tokens now.

[edit]
I do feel it’s relevant to point out that I’m not a fan of raid style content. And I’ll likely not do any of them more than a couple times, if at all. As much as I’d like to see those other options, I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal.

I agree it’s a costly QOL bonus, but saying ’it’s just a skin’ is a bit disingenuous, it’s intentionally much more than just a skin.

Palador.2170:

Kimyrielle.3826:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

I love how it took only a few hours for toxic raider culture to take root in the forums.

ITT: literally every reason raids have a bad name in so many other games.

Seriously. I wonder how these people managed to stay in a game for three years that according to them catered only to these casuals they obviously feel only contempt for. It’s not that there wouldn’t have been alternatives available for their taste. But noooo, they had to bring their elitism, bragging and toxic culture to the only game not having it so far. GG

Let’s be fair, some of this isn’t “toxic raider culture”. It’s “toxic forum culture”.

as someone who plays both wow raiding and gw2. the toxicity of both seems to blur together allot.

Ohoni.6057:

But that’s not really a valid comparison either. GW2 followed off of GW1 which did decently well for itself. Wildstar was a totally new IP by a new company with no experience.

The GW IP is not, itself, a massive draw though, people came to GW2 for what GW2 was. It’s no Final Fantasy, at the very least.

It’s true it’s no FF behemoth, but that’s not true that people came to GW2 for what GW2 was. MANY people came because of what GW1 was. Sure it drew a lot of new people as well, but it still basically had a built in fan base to draw on already unlike WS.

Kurr.4179:

Finally, “toxic raider culture”? REALLY?! I have no words for that one besides laughing…

That’s understandable. The crowd over at League of Legends probably thinks they are polite and helpful, too.

Games that give you everything for no effort have no lifespan. GW2 succeeds at making people want to keep chasing skins, titles, achievements and victory in many different game modes at once. If they took that away, they would be left with a lifeless game.

Well, you know that GW2, despite having no raids, did nothing but grow in the three years of its existence, yes? Games tend to die when no new content is being added, not because one particular niche group (raiders don’t seem to like it when you point out that they are minority, but truth sometimes hurts I guess) doesn’t have their interests represented. And I’d even be careful with the word “die” for almost no MMO ever really dies. Even Everquest is still running. GW2 made it to be second most successful MMO after WoW – without catering to raiders. And is this really so surprising, for there are a LOT of so-called ‘casual’ players around that don’t really like them, or even have to deal with the fallout of their presence (such as the obvious rift between raiders and non-raiders as evident by this thread and countless others like it). Guess what MMO really attracted non-raiders? Well, how about the only one not having raids? Shame it’s a thing of the past now.

Windsagio.1340:

mrstealth.6701:

Windsagio.1340:

mrstealth.6701:

Malediktus.9250:

Since legendary armor is cosmetic only and offers no stat advantage over ascended, there is no issue if non raiders cannot get it.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. The only difference between this and existing legendaries is that it might require something needing a party. And that’s assuming these items won’t be made available in pve, like the current dungeon tokens are.

I would certainly prefer that they give the reward track option. It does open up another (likely less efficient) option for those with no interest/time for larger-party gameplay. But the fact that’s a primarily cosmetic thing doesn’t make that an important thing to add.

Legendaries aren’t just skin swapping, you also usually get infinite stat swaps on them, it’s a nice QOL bonus

It’s a quite costly QoL bonus, though. For the time/money/effort put into a legendary, you could change stats on an ascended item quote a few times. That does come at the cost of losing runes, but stat swapping legendary armor is also very likely going to make the rune obsolete, or sub-optimal at best.

I still have alternate weapons for my legendaries (even if they’re using the same skin) just because I still need new sigils along with the stat change.

Still, though, I’d like to see alternates for obtaining as many legendary materials as possible. PvP reward tracks could cover a lot of them, as they do with dungeon tokens now.

[edit]
I do feel it’s relevant to point out that I’m not a fan of raid style content. And I’ll likely not do any of them more than a couple times, if at all. As much as I’d like to see those other options, I just don’t think it’s that big of a deal.

I agree it’s a costly QOL bonus, but saying ’it’s just a skin’ is a bit disingenuous, it’s intentionally much more than just a skin.

I never said it was just a skin, but that’s definitely the main reason most people have them. The QoL aspect is a secondary thing, that didn’t even exist for a long time, and that comes with its own downsides.

SkiTz.4590

WoW has a bunch of bs like attunements, gear treadmill , etc etc .
That’s what ppl don’t like about raids

no one hates raids as the actual content. Its fun, its a group effort, its challenging and its a different style of play than what we already have. That is sorely needed in this game thats been lacking for 3 years.

There’s nothing wrong with raids, stop being so melodramatic.

You’re right. Nobody technically hates raids. It’s the nine/thirty nine other individuals they have to suffer in order to get them done.

If the complaints about the dungeon community being toxic as it is right now are anything to go by due to elitism/ping requests/arbitrary kicks then it’s going to be a whole other level of drama once raids are live.

I, for one, and bringing popcorn.

I have to say, there is a lot of toxic behavior on both sides. By both “elitist” raiders and “elitist” casuals (yes, you are elitist too in your own way don’t think that you aren’t). This thread is becoming as bad as the old one.

mrstealth.6701:

I never said it was just a skin, but that’s definitely the main reason most people have them. The QoL aspect is a secondary thing, that didn’t even exist for a long time, and that comes with its own downsides.

People are going along that line with the “There are no stat bonuses!”

Without putting any judgement on whether its right or wrong to do so, I think we need to keep it totally clear that there’s a strong (and intentional) item incentive to doing raids: Unique prestige gear with (minor) in-game effects that is unattainable either way.

~~~

This is the basis of the discussion. This is why people are upset at the concept.

To me it mainly says that Anet thinks they need to seriously sweetn the pot to get people to actually raid :p

Honestly, Legendary stuff, and I repeat, LEGENDARY should be exclusively linked to challenging content and not tradeable.

So spvp and pve challenging content (Fractal and raids are perfect).

I support 100% anet design. For me weapons also should follow the same way and i’m very happy with new precursors (for new weapons) won’t be tradeable.

You need effort to get legendary stuff. And when i say effort i say skill effort, not grinding/time consuming effort.

Only in this way you have a true meaning of “legendary”

Is it an elitist vision? Dunno, but for me legedary means this.

xarallei.4279:

I have to say, there is a lot of toxic behavior on both sides. By both “elitist” raiders and “elitist” casuals (yes, you are elitist too in your own way don’t think that you aren’t). This thread is becoming as bad as the old one.

id like to preface my comment by saying i have no horse in this race, i still actively raid in another game, and would be happy to do it in gw2.

but isn’t a casual actually arguing for everyone to have access to legendaries be counter intuitive to being “Elitist”. just curious considering “casual elitist” seems oxymoronic to me.

@Philheat:

That goes to the other point, the challenging thing is likely (for lack of a better word) a scam.

Increasing encounter scale is a good way to limit accessibility and make things seem harder without greatly increasing individual execution requirements.

iZLA.9162:

xarallei.4279:

I have to say, there is a lot of toxic behavior on both sides. By both “elitist” raiders and “elitist” casuals (yes, you are elitist too in your own way don’t think that you aren’t). This thread is becoming as bad as the old one.

id like to preface my comment by saying i have no horse in this race, i still actively raid in another game, and would be happy to do it in gw2.

but doesnt a casual actually arguing for everyone to have access to legendaries be counter intuitive to being “Elitist”. just curious considering casual elitist seems oxymoronic to me.

They are “elitist” in the way they look down on raiders and constantly call them toxic and throw insults at them. These are the types that hate meta and anyone who uses meta. It’s really in the self righteous way they carry themselves (holier than thou attitude). There are some pretty blatant examples of it in this very thread. You should also watch Brazil’s elitist video. It’s quite good.

Oh and I’m not saying ALL of the people in this thread are like this. Many are presenting normal, civil arguments.

SkiTz.4590:

There won’t be another way and thats how it should be.

What you want is an easier way to get the armor, its not happening.

I was waiting for ohoni to pop up and finally make a thread complaining about exclusive rewards

Just like there’s no way for you to get the legendary back from PvP leagues in other ways.

Just deal with it ok. If you don’t like it, BYE. Anet made it 100% accessible to everyone playing the game. Just get a 10 man team, and go try it out.

“I don’t want to do it but I want the best stuff” is not a valid excuse.

Colin said live at PAX that raids will have masteries and that is the only way to get the precursor required for Legendary armor. Those precursors are account bound btw, so no, they will not be on TP for you to just simple buy after you spammed auto attack in silverwastes for a week.

So with reading this, you are basically confirming what the anti raid people feared all the time of the ride, no mercy for the raid unwilling or unfit people, bend over if you want the exclusive raid items?

Wow, it´s really like playing DAOC open raids all again nowwith the same kind of htfu speeches. Wow, just wow

Kimyrielle.3826:

Kurr.4179:

Finally, “toxic raider culture”? REALLY?! I have no words for that one besides laughing…

That’s understandable. The crowd over at League of Legends probably thinks they are polite and helpful, too.

Speaking about toxic behavior, speaking nonsense about another group of player you know nothing of is part of it…

Anyone who has raided (and I mean actual raiding, not WoW LFR) would tell you that you’re out of your mind. The vast majority of raid leaders will not tolerate toxic behavior in their raid and will immediately kick any toxic player out of their raids. Not only that but the greatest source of conflict in PvE tend to be about loot and DPS meters, which Guild Wars 2 has none of.

Kimyrielle.3826:

Games that give you everything for no effort have no lifespan. GW2 succeeds at making people want to keep chasing skins, titles, achievements and victory in many different game modes at once. If they took that away, they would be left with a lifeless game.

Well, you know that GW2, despite having no raids, did nothing but grow in the three years of its existence, yes? Games tend to die when no new content is being added, not because one particular niche group (raiders don’t seem to like it when you point out that they are minority, but truth sometimes hurts I guess) doesn’t have their interests represented. And I’d even be careful with the word “die” for almost no MMO ever really dies. Even Everquest is still running. GW2 made it to be second most successful MMO after WoW – without catering to raiders. And is this really so surprising, for there are a LOT of so-called ‘casual’ players around that don’t really like them, or even have to deal with the fallout of their presence (such as the obvious rift between raiders and non-raiders as evident by this thread and countless others like it). Guess what MMO really attracted non-raiders? Well, how about the only one not having raids? Shame it’s a thing of the past now.

Of course this game keeps growing if you go by the total number of boxes sold. The only way it wouldn’t be would be if the number of people getting banned would be bigger than the number of new players.

Right now there are 3 MMOs ahead of GW2 on Twitch so your claim that it is solidly #2 after WoW and well ahead of other MMOs is doubtful, to put it politely. With proper implementation of raiding I could absolutely see it being #2, if not #1 because there’s nothing to do in WoW…

Windsagio.1340:

mrstealth.6701:

I never said it was just a skin, but that’s definitely the main reason most people have them. The QoL aspect is a secondary thing, that didn’t even exist for a long time, and that comes with its own downsides.

People are going along that line with the “There are no stat bonuses!”

Without putting any judgement on whether its right or wrong to do so, I think we need to keep it totally clear that there’s a strong (and intentional) item incentive to doing raids: Unique prestige gear with (minor) in-game effects that is unattainable either way.

~~~

This is the basis of the discussion. This is why people are upset at the concept.

To me it mainly says that Anet thinks they need to seriously sweetn the pot to get people to actually raid :p

It’s just not really much different, at the base level, than other items we already have that require doing certain things in the game. There is pvp-exclusive armor, and armor that requires achievement hunting in LS. If you want max-stat ascended armor, you pretty much have to craft it, unless RNG smiles on you to an absurd degree. Should the drop rates on ascended armor chests be raised because I don’t want to craft it?

I don’t think it’s a realistic expectation to have every piece of gear, no matter what prestige/QoL feature it carries, to be obtainable via enough different methods to suit every player. I’d like to see an option to get this through pvp like we can dungeon items, but even if that does happen there will be people upset because they don’t like raids or pvp.

I don’t really care for the dungeons in GW2, and I don’t care for the conquest game mode…but I still did them to make the legendary weapons I have. If someone is really that determined to not raid, I’m sure others will be selling raid runs just like they do with dungeons now.

“I don’t want to do x content” is simply not a very good justification for items needing an alternate acquisition method, when the items in question have such minor benefits over more readily obtained items. I’d be all for this if the armor was matter-of-fact better, but not over a skin and a QoL feature.

Bearhugger.4326:

Anyone who has raided (and I mean actual raiding, not WoW LFR) would tell you that you’re out of your mind. The vast majority of raid leaders will not tolerate toxic behavior in their raid and will immediately kick any toxic player out of their raids. Not only that but the greatest source of conflict in PvE tend to be about loot and DPS meters, which Guild Wars 2 has none of.

Toxic behaviour as in elitism and bragging. Such as displayed by the attitude of the raiding crowd that their preferred game mode is the pinnacle of awesomeness and the only one deserving good rewards for it’s “challenging” while everything apparently isn’t. Challenging is a hillariously subjective thing, though. You could easily argue that some 5-man dungeons I have seen in other games are more difficult than any raid. WvW roaming can be difficult, since you’re usually outmanned and outgunned and it’s pretty hard to survive there. Even simple tasks can be called challenging if they take enough time. Killing the proverbial 10,000 rats isn’t difficult, but takes dedication and time. Of course you can argue that someone who did this chore long enough is in for a reward, no?

What I find toxic about the raiding culture is this innate arrogance that only THEY are the best and the brightest and THEIR preferred game mode is the only one that truly matters and that’s why only THEY deserve good stuff and everyone else is just too lazy or too bad and deserves to run around in rags.

Just because you are satisfied running around Queensdale for 12 hours a day killing regular mobs that do 0 damage, doesn’t mean the rest of us are. This game is good because it has aspects that EVERYONE want.

I totally agree. This is not about removing gameplay options for anyone, adding raiding is fine, so long as they don’t allow raider culture to come with it. So yes to raiding, no to “elite” raider reward chase.

Exclusive skins for certain game modes/challenges are not an issue.

That may be your opinion, but do not claim to speak for any of us.

Finally, “toxic raider culture”? REALLY?! I have no words for that one besides laughing… and I’m not even a huge raid runner (in GW1 I ran the elite areas a few times for completion’s sake but I didn’t farm them like a lot of other people did; I still appreciated them because I know they were an integral part of the game for many people).

There have been numerous displays of toxic raider culture all over this and other threads today, including hints of it in your own post. It’s the attitude that raiders are entitled to special; rewards for playing the way they want, and/or that players who don’t raid are somehow “less” than them. We don’t need that sort of attitude here.

What’s clear in this thread is that there are many people that play Guild Wars 2 one hour a week, that know nothing about this game and the multiple communities dedicated to the different activities to do in the game, and think everyone else does nothing but Silverwastes all day like they do.

I can’t speak for everyone, but I’ve been playing nightly for the past three years. I just have zero interest in raid content, which is a part of why I’ve been playing GW2 these past three years rather than something else.

It’s an issue in other games because their raids have gear that is absolutely better, in a sense of vertical progression. Those that have it, have a more effective and powerful character.

That’s really a minor impact in the grand scheme of things. If anything, the skins are more of a cause of toxicity than the stats. Think about it, this game has had ascended armor for years now, and yet most of the time nobody cares whether you have ascended or exotic. Most people don’t know or care what stats other player have, what matters is the showing off.

Like others have said, this isn’t like raids in other MMOs because you DON’T GET BETTER GEAR!

And so far, nobody has been working under the misconception that you would get better gear. That is not the issue being discussed.

It’s true it’s no FF behemoth, but that’s not true that people came to GW2 for what GW2 was. MANY people came because of what GW1 was. Sure it drew a lot of new people as well, but it still basically had a built in fan base to draw on already unlike WS.

Be that as it may, I still think WS did a plenty good job of attracting people to it, I do not think that lack of brand recognition hurt them any more than it hurt GW2. What killed WS was their focus on endgame/dungeon/raid type content, rather than on open world PvE like GW2 did. All the “filthy casuals” nonsense that people decry on other games forums, is exactly GW2’s bread and butter.

I have to say, there is a lot of toxic behavior on both sides. By both “elitist” raiders and “elitist” casuals (yes, you are elitist too in your own way don’t think that you aren’t). This thread is becoming as bad as the old one.

False equivalency.

Honestly, Legendary stuff, and I repeat, LEGENDARY should be exclusively linked to challenging content and not tradeable.

Perhaps so, but not necessarily to raid content.

They are “elitist” in the way they look down on raiders and constantly call them toxic and throw insults at them.

It’s purely self-defensive. Don’t defend the elite status of raids and raiders, and you are not elitist and will not be treated as such. Defend the concept that raiders are better than other players and deserve better rewards for raiding, and you are being elitist and will be treated as such. Do not expect to behave badly and not be called out for bad behavior.