Guild Wars 2

This is to those who watched the live stream that might be able to confirm this.

As I said in another thread, I did not watch it myself as I can never figure out when it is. Every time I follow their twitch link there’s nothing running. I’m not used to using twitch (just as I dont use twitter and stuff) at all and also the time zones makes me never having been able to catch any GW2 live stream. Also ANet are really slow on putting it on youtube. Takes day for them to put it on their youtube channel.

Anyway, I have read some comments on official forums from people who did watch but not sure what are real observations and just subjective interpretations.

A part of a comment here at least touch a subject i was curious about:

Donari.5237:

and what the skill scrolls will do (turn into wallet currency for the Forge).

There have been so many speculations (my own thoughts as well) that ANet would just replace our skillscrolls and such with random mystic forge materials and we’d have no choice. Some comments have even suggest there would be introduced some new material that would replace all old materials in the mystic forge etc.

However this means we at least will not lose out on this and probably get 1 of those new currencies for 1 skillpoint that we can use just as we now use skillpoints as currency and pick any material we want and this new currency will be worth the same as skillpoints were.

Can someone please confirm they really said that?

What was that number Nike threw out before 416 possible trait combos?

Whatever it was when one removes possible options, i.e. traits, you are removing possible builds. Whether those builds are “viable” or “optimal” is a moot point because any content can be completed, given enough time, in any set of traits. No matter how you slice it, this is an overall decrease in the number of possible trait combos. When you decrease the number of possible trait combinations you decrease the number of builds available. If you aren’t capable of understanding that …

Now, when you want to throw things like “viable” and “optimal” in the equation highly unlikely we will all agree on exact numbers of possible build combinations because everyone, apparently, has different ideas on what consitutes “viable” or “optimal” then, on top of that and people value things differently (i.e. I value efficiencey over all else, Bob values fun over all else, etc.), emotions cloud people’s judgement and logic further complicating what understanding of the base concept could have taken place. So, if you remove all of your preconceived notions of what is “viable” and “optimal” and remove your emotions from the equation, you should be able to see quite clearly that limiting the number of trait options does decrease the net number of builds possible.

With all that being said I see a net gain for my Ranger main build that I perfer to use. I lost some but gained more than I lost.

mrstealth.6701:

Curunen.8729:

Windsagio.1340:

You see what you want to see.

First reply = best reply.

I can see a lot of potential – and more useful diversity than at present. Depending how things are tweaked and finalised it could be fantastic.

Or we could have all of the good changes, and the current flexibility if we could still partially invest in a traitline/spec and continue being able to sacrifice a major trait for a second adept.

Tachenon.5270:

Useful diversity? Useful? To whom?

Some folks don’t care if one of the ‘new’ builds hugs corners better, or some other ‘new’ build can go from 0 to 60 in under 6 seconds. They’d rather drive the one they customized themselves from parts they scrounged from the junk heap out back. So what if it gets poor gas mileage and the windshield wipers don’t work. Is this game some sort of race? Is the EPA running Anet? The point being, these individuals paid for the game just like everybody else. Their money is just as (insert appropriate color here) as anyone else’s. Why are they the ones whose vehicles are being crushed into neat, easily stackable squares?

“Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black.” ~ Henry Ford.

Wvw and pvp are competitive => if you’re running something that is well below par you will be in for a hard time.

The way people talk about dungeons/pve, it is also competitive => the same thing applies.

From a mesmer perspective – there are currently so many negligable traits, despite the “flexibility” of being able to pick what you want most of it is useless and the result is less than a handful of “core” builds with minor variations, across all 3 game modes.

That is not diverse.

With these changes, who knows where the state of the game will end up, but potentially with each trait having a more meaningful impact there will be more reason to branch out.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Exactly, and being mainly an Engi/guard, not gonna lie, reading the stuff left me feeling a little tingly. I feel like someone at ANet loves me or something.

On that, do you feel better about the valor tree now, especially since stats have been desynced?

Looks well balanced, but I’d like a shield trait buff, pretty lackluster currently. I still probably won’t go for it often being a mainly passive defense for the group and personal sustain tree, but I think it’s balanced quite well, few different options on each trait slot if I were to use it.

Curunen.8729:

With these changes, who knows where the state of the game will end up, but potentially with each trait having a more meaningful impact there will be more reason to branch out.

More reason maybe, but less ability to actually do that because we’re limited to 3 out of 5 (soon to be 6) lines. We could have expanded diversity if they do the trait changes/merges, but keep the current system of spending trait points and selecting traits.

It’s like giving you a cybernetic super right hand, but chopping off your left hand in the process. Sure, you’ve got an awesome and improved right hand, but you’re limited in what you can do without your left hand.

phys.7689:

Vague Memory.2817:

They said they did this to add build diversity (I think this was achieved by removing stats from the trait lines), but they also said this would help to balance things (despite giving thieves access to x2 consume plasma – what!!).

its not really about build diversity
its more about simplification of the trait system and unification of builds.

im guessing in the long run, diversity will have to come mostly from elite specs, hope they can pump them out faster than 1 per expansion.

I honestly think the “Diversity over all!” attitude is wrong anyways, that’s not the important value as compared to balance and expandibility.

If they’d 100% streamlined the spec lines, I"d agree, but there’s still enough choice to support all the playstyles I know of (ie the actual deiversity)

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

In your eyes this ruins diversity in my eyes FIVE not one or two but FIVE builds I have wanted try for over a year I will FINALLY be able to do and have them compete on a reasonable level. It has been so long since ive been able to actually break out of the cookie cutter builds that this is incredible for me.

I like what there doing and I hope they keep this.

Are there less TOTAL choices? yes. But lets face it. From a competitive (not just pvp but wvw and pve as well) perspective over 90% of hte combinations simply wouldn’t ever be used. Since they didn’t even have the HINT of a chance of working against builds that had more synergy by there base nature.

A choice that doesn’t do anything isn’t a real choice.

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Vague Memory.2817:

They said they did this to add build diversity (I think this was achieved by removing stats from the trait lines), but they also said this would help to balance things (despite giving thieves access to x2 consume plasma – what!!).

its not really about build diversity
its more about simplification of the trait system and unification of builds.

im guessing in the long run, diversity will have to come mostly from elite specs, hope they can pump them out faster than 1 per expansion.

I honestly think the “Diversity over all!” attitude is wrong anyways, that’s not the important value as compared to balance and expandibility.

If they’d 100% streamlined the spec lines, I"d agree, but there’s still enough choice to support all the playstyles I know of (ie the actual deiversity)

Diversity over all, naw, but diversity is key. Pairing the 3 traits to actually be competitive with each other is key. Creating choices to be made and variations to be had.

A good example of this would be guardians Honor GMs. You ahve Writ of Persistance, strengthening symbols quite a bit with heals/duration. With that you have Force of Will for more health (something guard lacks) as well as greater healing output. Nice personal defense while still getting some support. And both of those compete with Pure of Voice, shout recharge and condi cleansing. Depending on the situation any of these could become a preferable choice. If I’m going into a situation where I want my shouts and possible conditions Pure of Voice will be quite nice. If I’m feeling extra squishy I might like the extra health, I can imagine in WvW these two traits will be in great competition as the health will always be important but shout recharge is highly sought after as well. The last of symbol boosts will synergize very well with hammer and mace, and synergize with the other symbol traits very well. My guess is as a PVE mainly person I’ll be going with the Writ of Persistance on my hammer build for perma protection that heals and does mroe damage, but again I could easily choose to grab the other traits given the right situation.

A bad example of this aspect of choice and diversity would be the Zeal Adept line. You have Fiery Wrath, 10% boost to damage, strait up, awesome. To compete you have Wrathful Spirit… retal on aegis, not sure if anyone hasn’t realized but retal isn’t something we really need more of and it’s really not all that strong, especially not when you’re considering an offensive build which is what zeal is made for. And last you have Zealous Scepter, might is nice, but we’re talking not even a half stack of might at the cost of a flat 10% on both weapon sets, who in their right mind would take that?

Those two demonstrate what I feel is “wrong” with some of the changes. Traits need to be competitive otherwise we just end up with the same or possibly an even more narrowed amount of good choices.

The idea is not to create more choices (obviously) but to create more good options… isn’kitten

For Zealous Scepter to compete it needs major buffing (make Smite a symbol added on, maybe with a 10% boost to scepter damage to counter fiery wrath, right now it’s a strictly solo situation option more or less, degrading what was once a viable weapon in group PVE on certain enemies to a real non option with how good mace will be, but yeah don’t want to make this all about guard ).

I guess I’d just like to see 2 choices at least in every line for any given area of the game. Obviously some traits are going to be good for PVP but bad in PVE and visa versa, but we should ahve options and those options should matter. In some cases that isn’t true right now and I hope they are going to tweak some stuff still to make that happen.

@Jerus, the interesting question is:

“Are Zealous Scepter and Wrathful spirit Inherently wrong, or do they just need balance?”

(Wrathful spirit actually might be, that always seemed dumb to me)

I believe they’ve gone this route with the traits so it would be easier for them to balance PVP. With less overall build options in the game there is less they need to worry about balance wise. I honestly do not think any of this has to do with increasing “diversity” because that has ALWAYS been there. All that about diversity was just lip service.

Things won’t change. There will still be optimal builds for dungeons/fractals.

Things won’t change. There will still be meta builds for PVP.

Things won’t change. There will still be the best builds for WvW.

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

I think negating the damage isn’t being 100% truthful with the impact it has on a build. The game is about opportunity cost, and when you drop damage to gain something else, that something else better be worth it.

The spirit of the Hammer build for guardian is that you can take some losses on the offensive side that aren’t too extreme and are able to be dealt with (field blocking and minor damage loss). While gaining perma protection, shout recharge, and maintaining your other support.

With the changes, you will no longer be able to have your perma protection and shout recharge. You will no longer be able to get your key support tools in virtues without dropping MAJOR player traits in zeal/radiance/honor.

It’ll create a more polarized set of hammer builds instead of that nice middle road which is what the hammer build is all about.

You will be able to go 66060 for max damage, losing all your virtue support. Or you can go 06066 getting your support but losing 30%+ damage!

Now you may say “but you’ll play it the same” sure, I’ll do the same things, but the build will play differently in that I’ll be overstacked in certain areas and underpowered in others. That nice balance between offense and defense that the hammer build gave will be lost.

Not really complaining as much as using it as a point for your challenge. I’m interested to see how it turns out as I think Hammer may be our top DPS build, Mace/Focus + GS being the standard meta with the balance between support and damage, then Hammer 06066 build for major support pug carry build. (I’m far more concerned witht he viability of sword/scepter right now than the change in hammer build basically).

Windsagio.1340:

@Jerus, the interesting question is:

“Are Zealous Scepter and Wrathful spirit Inherently wrong, or do they just need balance?”

(Wrathful spirit actually might be, that always seemed dumb to me)

Scepter just needs more power. I like the idea, I think the idea would go great in a solo situation. But in group PVE, with PS war getting such a boost, we’ll likely never be having issues with might (along with more blasts from engi as an alternative). It needs at least 10% damage to negate the obviously superior Fiery Wrath. I’d say 15-20% is more in line though, it may seem extreme but remember that the first 10% only counters that line, the might only helps solo, and you’re required to be using a scepter for any of the effects, quite a list of limitations and currently there is no power in it.

For Wrathful Spirit, if they could combine that with Shattered Aegis it’d strengthen that trait which IMO has tough competition with Symbolic Power.

This would open up a slot for a Sword trait, which seems to be missing and will need a pretty decent boost to compete with the now Symbolically powered Mace.

In fact a lot of these retal traits need to be looked at, they’re plagueing a few lines and they’re really non options. We’re supposed to try and avoid being hit, we’re guards we don’t ahve a ton of health. Radiance line adept has retal on heal… c’mon guys, why take up so many slots on mediocre retal traits when we already have pretty good access to that boon? Radiant Retaliation in radiance is another, which last I heard actually produced less damage with condi builds… it’s all a bit silly.

I’m about an hour into the vod for the stream now and I’m really looking forward to this. There are fewer traits overall, yes, but what’s there now is a lot more useful and a lot fewer “filler” traits that you’d never bother with. Looking at the thief and elementalist for example, I’m seeing multiple combinations in each of the trait lines that seem like they could be parts of useful builds and I can see more clearly how different combinations of full trait lines would work well together. I think that, ultimately, we’ll see more diversity with these changes, once we actually get to see how they work in the “real world”.

The thing is, more polarized builds might be more interesting as compared to the ‘optimzied sludge’ we have right now.

That’s the ele 62222 point, it’s optimized sludge with very little character.

You do have a legit point that in the guardian case you’re loosing a bit of flexibility (although I’ve been taking the adept symbols trait over aria anyways lately, that’s a taste and group setup thing),

I’m kind of getting to the point in seriously discussing and thinking about where I realize how messed up the current system is. With a few exceptions (forceful greatswords and PS for instance) we take the 1 thing that defines our build and then it’s all just filled in with the optimization sludge.

(Sorry in advance, I"m really in love with that term having thought of it, so everyone who’s in these discussions is gonna hear it some for a while :p)

62222 ele build was actually a highly specialized build for object destruction. 64XXX was the optimal options for anything but object damage as the crit chance was important.

That said…

I do agree with the issue of damage modifiers. They can easily skew things more or less forcing you to go down trees you wouldn’t otherwise go. They don’t change playstyle they just greatly affect your strength.

Take a look at the hammer builds again, 30%+ in modifiers on the Zeal tree. Huge. If I type my play style defining traits in radiance/honor/virtues I lose 25%+ damage most likely. if I choose to go 06066. That’s a drastic difference.

Since the modifiers do exist they become a very build defining feature. The optimization sludge is simply too powerful to ignore, at least in PVE.

As for solutions… well I think they need to make sure the gains and losses between trees isn’t as drastic as it currently can be otherwise you pigeon hole people into certain builds because of huge losses in their output.

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

mesmer cant really play dueling mantras any more because they are now mutually exclusive.
Deceptive evasion is a playstyle defining trait that gives you a quick resource and adaptability for shattering, and turning around the situation. Mantras are a side mechanic the reward preparation and reactionary play.
These are now mutually exclusive.

trickster mesmer with on death clone effects have been removed completely. This type of mesmer often relied on tricking people into attacking the wrong clone. Picking and killing the wrong mesmer resulted in various negative effects.

yeah, some real playstyle builds died.

then there is a number of optimized builds that gave you the things you may have wanted out of different lines. That really matched your playstyle. Like i had an power/crit/tools engineer, that had vigor/swiftness on weapon swap.

the build relied on being highly evasive for defense. Used the tool cool downs, with low recharge tools and static discharge. Bombs and a bit of critical.

there are builds that dont exist. Most of them are hybrids, or and some of them are from build defining traits that are now mutually exclusive.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

I believe they’ve gone this route with the traits so it would be easier for them to balance PVP. With less overall build options in the game there is less they need to worry about balance wise. I honestly do not think any of this has to do with increasing “diversity” because that has ALWAYS been there. All that about diversity was just lip service.

Things won’t change. There will still be optimal builds for dungeons/fractals.

Things won’t change. There will still be meta builds for PVP.

Things won’t change. There will still be the best builds for WvW.

agree….but players will ALWAYS devise optimal builds….no trait system will change that. therewill always be pressure to run those builds.

if streamlining to make balance an easier task, means we get more frequent balance iteration….even better, and well worth the loss of being able to make quirky/crappy builds. those losing legit builds need to make this know to the devs. still time to adjust/redo traits

I don’t think we’ll get more frequent balance patches either. It’ll still be every 6 months or so we get a balance patch… unless something is literally broken in game (note: I don’t mean someone’s smelly opinion that the THEY it is broken). I think it was purely to make balancing easier on the Devs. That’s it.

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

mesmer cant really play dueling mantras any more because they are now mutually exclusive.
Deceptive evasion is a playstyle defining trait that gives you a quick resource and adaptability for shattering, and turning around the situation. Mantras are a side mechanic the reward preparation and reactionary play.
These are now mutually exclusive.

trickster mesmer with on death clone effects have been removed completely. This type of mesmer often relied on tricking people into attacking the wrong clone. Picking and killing the wrong mesmer resulted in various negative effects.

yeah, some real playstyle builds died.

then there is a number of optimized builds that gave you the things you may have wanted out of different lines. That really matched your playstyle. Like i had an power/crit/tools engineer, that had vigor/swiftness on weapon swap.

the build relied on being highly evasive for defense. Used the tool cool downs, with low recharge tools and static discharge. Bombs and a bit of critical.

there are builds that dont exist. Most of them are hybrids, or and some of them are from build defining traits that are now mutually exclusive.

This is where my question becomes a trick: They want us to bring up lost builds as feedback to modify the system and trees

About mantras and duellist, I don’t know mesmer builds super well, but I kind of doubt they’re truly mutually exclusive, it becomes a question of ‘how important are they to add?’

If you have to make a hard decision between 2 potential options, if both are viable and both are at the same level of significance, then that’s a good choice.

Relshdan.6854:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

I believe they’ve gone this route with the traits so it would be easier for them to balance PVP. With less overall build options in the game there is less they need to worry about balance wise. I honestly do not think any of this has to do with increasing “diversity” because that has ALWAYS been there. All that about diversity was just lip service.

Things won’t change. There will still be optimal builds for dungeons/fractals.

Things won’t change. There will still be meta builds for PVP.

Things won’t change. There will still be the best builds for WvW.

agree….but players will ALWAYS devise optimal builds….no trait system will change that. therewill always be pressure to run those builds.

if streamlining to make balance an easier task, means we get more frequent balance iteration….even better, and well worth the loss of being able to make quirky/crappy builds.

Maybe we should just limit it down to picking 3 options for our builds. Pre-determined, unalterable builds for power, condi, and tanky/support. One click and your traits are set. Quick and simple to balance. Just slap in some of the current meta builds, and call it good.

Looking at some of new traitlines, we’re not all that far from this. There are quite a few obvious only-choice traits for a build type. As someone above pointed out, hammer (and GS to a slightly lesser degree) guardians are all but forced into the zeal tree. Are we really going to ignore 25-30% more damage in a power/damage build?

TheFantasticGman.9451:

I don’t think we’ll get more frequent balance patches either. It’ll still be every 6 months or so we get a balance patch… unless something is literally broken in game (note: I don’t mean someone’s smelly opinion that the THEY it is broken). I think it was purely to make balancing easier on the Devs. That’s it.

you’re probably right…wishful thinking on my part…makes more sense for it simply to be a cost-saving measure.

mrstealth.6701:

Relshdan.6854:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

I believe they’ve gone this route with the traits so it would be easier for them to balance PVP. With less overall build options in the game there is less they need to worry about balance wise. I honestly do not think any of this has to do with increasing “diversity” because that has ALWAYS been there. All that about diversity was just lip service.

Things won’t change. There will still be optimal builds for dungeons/fractals.

Things won’t change. There will still be meta builds for PVP.

Things won’t change. There will still be the best builds for WvW.

agree….but players will ALWAYS devise optimal builds….no trait system will change that. therewill always be pressure to run those builds.

if streamlining to make balance an easier task, means we get more frequent balance iteration….even better, and well worth the loss of being able to make quirky/crappy builds.

Maybe we should just limit it down to picking 3 options for our builds. Pre-determined, unalterable builds for power, condi, and tanky/support. One click and your traits are set. Quick and simple to balance. Just slap in some of the current meta builds, and call it good.

Looking at some of new traitlines, we’re not all that far from this. There are quite a few obvious only-choice traits for a build type. As someone above pointed out, hammer (and GS to a slightly lesser degree) guardians are all but forced into the zeal tree. Are we really going to ignore 25-30% more damage in a power/damage build?

there’s a middle ground between bad quirky builds and optimal meta builds, that i think this new system can still accommodate. i think most people look at meta builds, try them out, and then tweak them to fit their playing strengths or cover their skill weaknesses. it seems to me the GM traits are now determining the general playstyle/ build type, and the adepts and majors are there for flavor. seems okay to me.

mrstealth, we are moving that way. Eventually we will have even less choice later, and not neccessarily with better choices.

Don’t forget Anet is a for-profit company. Not a non-profit organization. They have to/will cut cost in operations just like any other corporation that wants to stay in the profits for investors, and you know, stay solvent.

IMO the current scenario is that you can make 2000 different builds but only 4~5 are viable and most classes have 0~2 meta builds. After the update it seems we’ll have like 500 possible builds but 8~10 viable ones and 2~3 metas, that is a RISE in diversity for me.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

mrstealth, we are moving that way. Eventually we will have even less choice later, and not neccessarily with better choices.

Don’t forget Anet is a for-profit company. Not a non-profit organization. They have to/will cut cost in operations just like any other corporation that wants to stay in the profits for investors, and you know, stay solvent.

Your parallel is kind of weird: There’s no real ongoing support cost to not changing specs.

~~~
More importantly, there’s a proper middle ground, choice without too much choice.

Relshdan.6854:

it seems to me the GM traits are now determining the general playstyle/ build type, and the adepts and majors are there for flavor. seems okay to me.

I see a lot of GM traits that look more like minor buffs and flavor to things that are just part of our builds and skills anyway. Other that are obvious must haves. And some that are simply a decision between lesser evils you are forced to chose from to get something more valuable earlier in the line.

Belzebu.3912:

IMO the current scenario is that you can make 2000 different builds but only 4~5 are viable and most classes have 0~2 meta builds. After the update it seems we’ll have like 500 possible builds but 8~10 viable ones and 2~3 metas, that is a RISE in diversity for me.

If that’s your opinion then what is your definition of viable?

Mine is “viable = the ability to complete content” so… 2000 different builds and all are viable. I don’t know of one build that you can have and not complete any content in… in PVE at least. DOn’t konw for WVW or PVP. No matter what system is in place there is always going to be optimal/meta/best builds for different modes. This isn’t going to change that.

IMO, overall number of viable builds decreased signficantly. And there’ll be little to no change in the number of optimal/meta/best builds.

Windsagio.1340:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

mrstealth, we are moving that way. Eventually we will have even less choice later, and not neccessarily with better choices.

Don’t forget Anet is a for-profit company. Not a non-profit organization. They have to/will cut cost in operations just like any other corporation that wants to stay in the profits for investors, and you know, stay solvent.

Your parallel is kind of weird: There’s no real ongoing support cost to not changing specs.

~~~
More importantly, there’s a proper middle ground, choice without too much choice.

It’s not weird at all if you understand it. This game is not built for hardcore players It’s built for casuals. Casual players perfer the path of least resistance. To make the game easier for casuals they’ll introduce less choice in traits overall and at the sametime making it easier on them to balance thus save the company money. It’s win-win.

Viable in my example is “competitive builds that aren’t meta”.

mrstealth.6701:

Relshdan.6854:

it seems to me the GM traits are now determining the general playstyle/ build type, and the adepts and majors are there for flavor. seems okay to me.

I see a lot of GM traits that look more like minor buffs and flavor to things that are just part of our builds and skills anyway. Other that are obvious must haves. And some that are simply a decision lesser evils you are forced to chose from to get something more valuable earlier in the line.

i agree and disagree….but it doesn’t matter where the “build defining” trait lies, since you have to take one of each tier anyway, and you certainly aren’t going to take a trait line that lacks a vital trait to your build. its just important that the build defining traits are there.

the current trait lines are by no means perfect, but the system can work in concept….they just need to make sure the actual traits are worthy, and the tiers they’re placed in allows for it to work (make sure playstyle-defining traits are not mutually exclusive by being put in the same tier….and that each lines can support/define multiple different builds..at least 2, but ideally 3) and create as many viable general builds per playstyle as possible.

Relshdan.6854:

but it doesn’t matter where the “build defining” trait lies, since you have to take one of each tier anyway, and you certainly aren’t going to take a trait line that lacks a vital trait to your build. its just important that the build defining traits are there.

That’s the inherent problem with the new system. No matter where it is, you’re forced to take the entire line whether you want it or not.

You’re down to picking your third spec. The only desired traits are at the adept tiers of two different lines. You have no choice but to pick just one of the two, then select two traits from the remaining tiers that you have no use for.

I can look through the new traits and see a good bit of that situation.

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

mesmer cant really play dueling mantras any more because they are now mutually exclusive.
Deceptive evasion is a playstyle defining trait that gives you a quick resource and adaptability for shattering, and turning around the situation. Mantras are a side mechanic the reward preparation and reactionary play.
These are now mutually exclusive.

trickster mesmer with on death clone effects have been removed completely. This type of mesmer often relied on tricking people into attacking the wrong clone. Picking and killing the wrong mesmer resulted in various negative effects.

yeah, some real playstyle builds died.

then there is a number of optimized builds that gave you the things you may have wanted out of different lines. That really matched your playstyle. Like i had an power/crit/tools engineer, that had vigor/swiftness on weapon swap.

the build relied on being highly evasive for defense. Used the tool cool downs, with low recharge tools and static discharge. Bombs and a bit of critical.

there are builds that dont exist. Most of them are hybrids, or and some of them are from build defining traits that are now mutually exclusive.

This is where my question becomes a trick: They want us to bring up lost builds as feedback to modify the system and trees

About mantras and duellist, I don’t know mesmer builds super well, but I kind of doubt they’re truly mutually exclusive, it becomes a question of ‘how important are they to add?’

If you have to make a hard decision between 2 potential options, if both are viable and both are at the same level of significance, then that’s a good choice.

they are now mutually exclusive, they werent before.
you cant get 3 mantras and get clones on dodge anymore.

So they’re intentionally mutually exclusive. It’s an interesting point, but hardly a side effect.

Edit: And this kind of ties into the ‘optimized sludge’ theme. A good build doesn’t mean you get everything

Windsagio.1340:

So they’re intentionally mutually exclusive. It’s an interesting point, but hardly a side effect.

it actually is a side effect.
problem is the mantra trait is strong, but not strong enough to stand on its own. And there is a limited number of places for it. Essentially it needs back up to work. But with the new system anywhere you place it, it clashes with some other build.

the build existed before, and it has never been OP.

DE should exist in opposition to phantasm build, but mantra should be able to work with either one.
see mantra you spend a lot of time casting, so you either need to be able to spike your resource to do anything, or set up a lot of things while you are casting.

as it is right now, they are basically weakening mantra build greatly.

ias for the get everything
it existed, it was not an OP top end build.
mantra has a high cost in cast times. you need something else to make it work.

Tell me then does this look familiar? http://images.mmosite.com/bbs/upload/2010/11/19/e9213598ea111fa2c8f321b47ad04905.jpg oh thats right…..

its what anet is mimicing with this change, only instead of being given so many branches to pick form up the tree we get 3 per layer of the tree, whats that under? that’s roots powers you unlock the more you put on the tree, but with gw2 bits baseline powers.

in rift these are called souls each of the 4 classes use, and that game’s build environment is very toxic, bring X build to Y content or you cant do the content/party-kicks.

the difference her ewe are getting even less options then rift’s souls

the people who say this 3 line system is better are dead wrong, its easier for the company to control what builds come into play an dhow they work, some people hope ‘elite’ specs fix this but it won’t. It will just create new premade builds with no diversity and if/when we get templates we will have people telling us to bring pre-made builds to content especially in pvp.

‘yo dude get your morter support build while our guardian plugs his bunker spec and our ele plugs their healing spec’

right now we just got demands for zerk builds, this 3 line system rails players into less build potential, gives the company more direct power to force premade builds and then if/when we get templates we will see these premades getting demands to be brought.

Some peole even say thats short term think long term, I AM! people say we got useless ‘traits’ now well down the road we will get useless lines instead.

the limited room of spec-lines means less diversity and more dedication based on that line, aka dps line tank line support/heal line. Its a dangerous change that could sneak the trinity into guildwar2

I know what I’m talking about, gw2 isn’t my first mmo and like others wise enough to see the signs, this is something gw2 doesn’t need because it will push it towards a bad place it doesn’t need to be.

Galeskyring.9617:

Tell me then does this look familiar? http://images.mmosite.com/bbs/upload/2010/11/19/e9213598ea111fa2c8f321b47ad04905.jpg oh thats right…..

That looks like every trait tree since Diablo 1.

Conncept.7638:

Galeskyring.9617:

Tell me then does this look familiar? http://images.mmosite.com/bbs/upload/2010/11/19/e9213598ea111fa2c8f321b47ad04905.jpg oh thats right…..

That looks like every trait tree since Diablo 1.

Rift is a more recent game, a toxic system for builds is never good, seeing it come here is a very bad sign people need to realize.

mrstealth.6701:

Relshdan.6854:

but it doesn’t matter where the “build defining” trait lies, since you have to take one of each tier anyway, and you certainly aren’t going to take a trait line that lacks a vital trait to your build. its just important that the build defining traits are there.

That’s the inherent problem with the new system. No matter where it is, you’re forced to take the entire line whether you want it or not..

that’s only a problem if they fail at populating the lines with worthy/diverse traits in each tier. right now, i don’t think most lines are where they need to be (but some are)….but they potentially can be. the flaw is not in the system, its in some of the traits and their organization.

Relshdan.6854:

mrstealth.6701:

Relshdan.6854:

but it doesn’t matter where the “build defining” trait lies, since you have to take one of each tier anyway, and you certainly aren’t going to take a trait line that lacks a vital trait to your build. its just important that the build defining traits are there.

That’s the inherent problem with the new system. No matter where it is, you’re forced to take the entire line whether you want it or not..

that’s only a problem if they fail at populating the lines with worthy/diverse traits in each tier. right now, i don’t think most lines are where they need to be (but some are)….but they potentially can be. the flaw is not in the system, its in some of the traits and their organization.

Is that even a feasible goal, though? To ensure that a wide variety of builds will have viable options in two tiers to match the third tier’s more vital trait. With only 3 traits in each tier and a very restrictive system, that could be very difficult to do while maintaining diversity.

Trying to ensure viable pairing across the 3 trait tiers seems like it could easily lead to sets of 3 traits that are always used together. If you pick the first trait in the adept tier, you need to pick the first traits in the master and grandmaster tiers to match it. That wouldn’t allow for much diversity at all.

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

So they’re intentionally mutually exclusive. It’s an interesting point, but hardly a side effect.

it actually is a side effect.
problem is the mantra trait is strong, but not strong enough to stand on its own. And there is a limited number of places for it. Essentially it needs back up to work. But with the new system anywhere you place it, it clashes with some other build.

the build existed before, and it has never been OP.

DE should exist in opposition to phantasm build, but mantra should be able to work with either one.
see mantra you spend a lot of time casting, so you either need to be able to spike your resource to do anything, or set up a lot of things while you are casting.

as it is right now, they are basically weakening mantra build greatly.

ias for the get everything
it existed, it was not an OP top end build.
mantra has a high cost in cast times. you need something else to make it work.

And you get other things, not just evasion. Our whole discussion started on a weird point because you said ‘duelist’ and ‘3 mantras’ are mutually exclusive, when you meant 3 mantras and deceptive evasion are.

Windsagio.1340:

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

So they’re intentionally mutually exclusive. It’s an interesting point, but hardly a side effect.

it actually is a side effect.
problem is the mantra trait is strong, but not strong enough to stand on its own. And there is a limited number of places for it. Essentially it needs back up to work. But with the new system anywhere you place it, it clashes with some other build.

the build existed before, and it has never been OP.

DE should exist in opposition to phantasm build, but mantra should be able to work with either one.
see mantra you spend a lot of time casting, so you either need to be able to spike your resource to do anything, or set up a lot of things while you are casting.

as it is right now, they are basically weakening mantra build greatly.

ias for the get everything
it existed, it was not an OP top end build.
mantra has a high cost in cast times. you need something else to make it work.

And you get other things, not just evasion. Our whole discussion started on a weird point because you said ‘duelist’ and ‘3 mantras’ are mutually exclusive, when you meant 3 mantras and deceptive evasion are.

your question is are any viable playstyles killed, and i told you about some playstyles that dont work.

There are others in other jobs as well.

when i said duelist mantra, i mean duelist style fighting. IE reactionary, quick on your feat and quick to respond, which should be one of the main ways of playing with mantras, and always was before.

Windsagio.1340:

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

Boon stripping signet mesmer.

Personally I would’ve settled for a completely different system without the whole all traits that were previously belonging to a different system.

I think the one thing here that is more “damaging” is that they try to move from one system to another. All the old traits need to adjust to a new system which basically wasn’t made for these traits. Making the choices less "fun"as some are just alot less enticing than others, because previously you would combines some of the early traits for example. Also alot of people invested by buying specific armor and gear for their build in the form of ascended weaponary and such and after all that fine tuning they pull out the rug from under us because they want a new rug which will be better able for future additions. (Which could be explained as a necessary evil or something that’s not worth it) Plus who’s not to say they won’t do this later on when they change their minds again.

Both systems are fine imo, One has more customisation possible and allows for more experimentation. (something that was part of GW1) The other is very streamlined and makes it alot easier to switch between different builds because of the clearer and limited options. It’s also alot more accessible for new players. (Then again this game is too old imo to accommodate for new players, and should look more what it can do for the older players. Changing the foundations of the game to me feels like they’re just making the same game with the same content while changing how the game works, but not actually providing any sustainable new content. So hopefully this new system will allow for more future additions faster rather than changing the foundation again.

Ralanost.8913:

atheria.2837:

For those of us who learn by doing and not by videos, not by the game “showing” us, this is devastating.

For all those with literal brain damage – this game was hard enough – with the new changes you add a level of confusion and more that we did not need at all.

Wow, a whole one more elite that I have to choose over another.

Wow, a traiting system that is more than confusing, it’s harder to get through and harder to change from if you go down the wrong one??

Wow, “mats” for “tomes” and “skill points” that we sweated our hearts and souls out to get and keep for future use????

Wow, not making impossible mats available (*ahem ask anyone making a legendary how to get lodestones – any lodestones! and several other mats that are just about impossible – grind, grind, grind, grind, grind.)

Wow, not listening to players when you ask for our opinions and then throwing the lot of us under a literal bus.

I honestly have no idea what you are getting at. Is this sarcasm? I hope it’s sarcasm. Even so, your first statement just makes no sense no matter how much I read it. I have no idea how this is ‘devastating’.

If you can’t figure out a posting why denigrate the person posting?

I have dyscalculia – dyscalculia.org – you might learn why changes with huge chunks of math being necessary will destroy the game for tens of thousands of players for a very long time, if not for good.

Silberfisch.3046:

My only problem so far is something that has been already adressed, but it remains my main problem: These changes reduce build flexibility, and quite drastically so.
No more option to use 2 adept or master tier traits if you want to. No more builds that use more than 3 traitlines.
These do cut down on the options availlable to players.

Admittedly however, I don’t see any really applicable fix for those with the new system. At least not for the second problem. So giving constructive criticism is sadly not really an option for me.

But I’m trying not to be overly negative. I’ll learn to adapt like anybody else. And on the plus side, a lot of the changes inside the traitlines look promising.

As with most changes, we get one part uppers, one part downers and one part candy.

Big problem that I will find hard to swallow… you hit the nail on the head.

If I choose two skills that are in the same tier, as I do on many of my builds, I will be completely lost – as will many whose skills match their play style.

My play style isn’t anyone else’s but these changes seem to want to force every single one of us to play, not our way, but a new and more rigid way without any real choices.

phys.7689:

trickster mesmer with on death clone effects have been removed completely. This type of mesmer often relied on tricking people into attacking the wrong clone. Picking and killing the wrong mesmer resulted in various negative effects.

Yes, my trickster build is currently dead in the water. It relied on clones spreading conditions when active, and then dealing several conditions when killed; the only time I ever currently use shatter is if I know I can get 3 clones back immediately without blowing all my dodges. There’s also Chaotic Dampening as the staff recharge trait only being effective if you have chaos shield active … thus giving away which one of you is the real mesmer … so can’t use that one then. For the duelling line I’d be very happy to sacrifice my inflict conditions on destruction traits for the three minor traits but I’m not interested in the adept or master traits. I’ve noticed a few of the skills actually seem to defy synergy … rather than being a trade-off they say “hey these two skills really complement each other … shame you can’t use them both” troll to the player. For example metaphysical rejuvenation (gain regeneration when health drops below 75%) and illusionary membrane (gain protection when you gain regeneration) look as though they should be in the same line but not at the same level (eg. one at minor, one at adept) whereas in fact they are both adept skills in the chaos line.

Frankly, if they’d let us select minors in adept, master, and grandmaster slots then quite a few of my personal issues would melt away.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Personally I would’ve settled for a completely different system without the whole all traits that were previously belonging to a different system.

I think the one thing here that is more “damaging” is that they try to move from one system to another. All the old traits need to adjust to a new system which basically wasn’t made for these traits. Making the choices less "fun"as some are just alot less enticing than others, because previously you would combines some of the early traits for example. Also alot of people invested by buying specific armor and gear for their build in the form of ascended weaponary and such and after all that fine tuning they pull out the rug from under us because they want a new rug which will be better able for future additions. (Which could be explained as a necessary evil or something that’s not worth it) Plus who’s not to say they won’t do this later on when they change their minds again.

Both systems are fine imo, One has more customisation possible and allows for more experimentation. (something that was part of GW1) The other is very streamlined and makes it alot easier to switch between different builds because of the clearer and limited options. It’s also alot more accessible for new players. (Then again this game is too old imo to accommodate for new players, and should look more what it can do for the older players. Changing the foundations of the game to me feels like they’re just making the same game with the same content while changing how the game works, but not actually providing any sustainable new content. So hopefully this new system will allow for more future additions faster rather than changing the foundation again.

I honestly don’t think that anyone who has built the new system has even taken into account the hundreds or thousands in “gold” that have been spent on present gear.

Not one thought or care.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Also alot of people invested by buying specific armor and gear for their build in the form of ascended weaponary and such and after all that fine tuning they pull out the rug from under us because they want a new rug which will be better able for future additions. (Which could be explained as a necessary evil or something that’s not worth it) Plus who’s not to say they won’t do this later on when they change their minds again.

I’m very surprised this hasn’t come up more often. Of course, any change to skills and traits comes with the chance of nerfing builds and causing gear to need replaced. But these are some sweeping changes across more than just the traits themselves that are going to affect a larger number of players.

I know I’m most likely going to need to replace some lost vitality from the 4th traitline. Having the stats on gear increased doesn’t compensate for that when we’re using little/no vitality gear. The base stat is only going up by around 75, so someone with 6 points into their 4th/vit traitline and no vit gear will lose 2250 HP.

The hardest hit stats will be condition damage and healing power, unless they raise their (currently 0) base stat by a significant amount. I have at least one build where the 300 condi damage from a traitline is a huge portion of the build’s overall condi damage stat. Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2. I doubt that the condi damage stat on my gear will be boosted enough to make up for that loss.

The funny thing is that 3 years ago I was arguing against having stats in trait lines. It would have been a great idea to uncouple them at that time. But now, it’s too late for changes like that. Coupled stats and traitlines do somewhat push us down certain paths, but we have already embraced the idea, integrated it into our builds, and built our gear around it.

I’m not sure how can anyone see this as lack of diversity. I mean, anyone who is trying to actually be useful and optimal in this game sees this game has NO diversity right now. Every serious PvE guild has meta builds expected for every class and there are also many PvP guilds that DEMAND that everyone runs meta for their profession. Every warrior I see joining my parties for PvE is either deeps or Phalanx, every ele is staff or d/f, every thief is S/P and D/D, and there are some professions that are completely excluded from a lot of content. I see people kicking rangers just because they’re playing rangers (PvE-wise), I see people kicking mesmers from fractals because they have nothing to offer. This game is everything now but filled with diversity considering builds. Every thief I see in PvP is either S/D or D/P. Every mesmer is either halting strike shatter or traditional, every guard is either bunker or Medi, every warrior is shoutbow. And if you disagree, you’re probably in a lot more of a casual circle of playing. This game has NO diversity right now and changes as huge as we’ve seen on the stream can only bring positive impact on the game. Wow…

BakiSaN.9281:

I’m not sure how can anyone see this as lack of diversity. I mean, anyone who is trying to actually be useful and optimal in this game sees this game has NO diversity right now. Every serious PvE guild has meta builds expected for every class and there are also many PvP guilds that DEMAND that everyone runs meta for their profession. Every warrior I see joining my parties for PvE is either deeps or Phalanx, every ele is staff or d/f, every thief is S/P and D/D, and there are some professions that are completely excluded from a lot of content. I see people kicking rangers just because they’re playing rangers (PvE-wise), I see people kicking mesmers from fractals because they have nothing to offer. This game is everything now but filled with diversity considering builds. Every thief I see in PvP is either S/D or D/P. Every mesmer is either halting strike shatter or traditional, every guard is either bunker or Medi, every warrior is shoutbow. And if you disagree, you’re probably in a lot more of a casual circle of playing. This game has NO diversity right now and changes as huge as we’ve seen on the stream can only bring positive impact on the game. Wow…

That describes a good portion of the playerbase for pretty much any MMO. The people are unwilling, or unable, to think outside of the box provided to them by meta builds and guides. I see meta builds is simply the lowest common denominator, a baseline that is pretty much always accepted, but not necessarily always best.

There is plenty of viability outside of meta builds. There is even variation within the meta builds quite often. And then there is the fact that people have different playstyles. What is optimal for you, might be bad for me. That doesn’t mean that either build is superior, they are just designed for different playstyles. In the end, you’re probably going to be a more effective player if you are building to fit the playstyle you enjoy, instead of trying to force yourself to conform to someone else’s.