Guild Wars 2

I don’t know how anyone can look at the system for allocation and selection of traits, and think it does anything but limit diversity. I’m not referring to the trait mergers, new traits, removed traits, or the fact that there are overall fewer traits. For the most part, the changes to the traits themselves are great. It could use some shifting around between tiers and lines, but I don’t see that many issues nor have I seen many complaints about that aspect.

The problems are the very strict manner in which trait points are allocated (3 lines, all or nothing allocation), and being forced to take a trait from each tier instead of multiples from lower tiers. These two aspects, by their very nature, limit diversity. They are nothing but restrictions that limit the number of possible trait combinations and combinations of traitline/spec use.

This thread and the 100+ like it are hilarious. We currently have 0 to 1 decent PvE builds for each profession. The new trait system cannot possibly be any worse…

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Ralanost.8913:

Put down the pipe, step back from the pc and get some fresh air.

Can’t. Fresh Air trait line as been nerfed

Fantastic! you brightened my day thank you \o/

BakiSaN.9281:

This game has NO diversity right now and changes as huge as we’ve seen on the stream can only bring positive impact on the game. Wow…

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Things won’t change. There will still be optimal builds for dungeons/fractals.

Things won’t change. There will still be meta builds for PVP.

Things won’t change. There will still be the best builds for WvW.

It was easier to C&P a quote then to type it again

BakiSaN.9281:

I’m not sure how can anyone see this as lack of diversity. I mean, anyone who is trying to actually be useful and optimal in this game sees this game has NO diversity right now. Every serious PvE guild has meta builds expected for every class and there are also many PvP guilds that DEMAND that everyone runs meta for their profession. Every warrior I see joining my parties for PvE is either deeps or Phalanx, every ele is staff or d/f, every thief is S/P and D/D, and there are some professions that are completely excluded from a lot of content. I see people kicking rangers just because they’re playing rangers (PvE-wise), I see people kicking mesmers from fractals because they have nothing to offer. This game is everything now but filled with diversity considering builds. Every thief I see in PvP is either S/D or D/P. Every mesmer is either halting strike shatter or traditional, every guard is either bunker or Medi, every warrior is shoutbow. And if you disagree, you’re probably in a lot more of a casual circle of playing. This game has NO diversity right now and changes as huge as we’ve seen on the stream can only bring positive impact on the game. Wow…

Perhaps instead of limiting build options further, the developers should consider adding DEPTH to the game to make a place for more builds.

carabidus.6214:

This thread and the 100+ like it are hilarious. We currently have 0 to 1 decent PvE builds for each profession. The new trait system cannot possibly be any worse…

Not true.

For Ele we have D/F, S+LH, and Staff, each with a few variations, but main thing is each weapon set is viable in PVE.
Staff = damage
S+LH = best buff, but hard to use
D/F = best support but lowest damage.

All 3 have their place, DF is the go to for PUGs IMO, Staff the go to for either being lazy or when you have a PS war/second Ele, and S+LH for highly organized groups that need might/fury.

With the changes/proposed changes we’ll see LH nerfed dropping S+LH even further behind staff, and with the lack of modifiers for D/F build we’ll see that also fall further behind, all while we see staff make some gains.

We’ll be going to just staff.

So 3 builds with possible variations, to 1 build with no real variations (66060 staff almost guaranteed unless you need that vigor).

Now not all professions are necessarily going to drop like that, but many will. Guardian for example currently uses all weapons for different situations other than shield. With the changes Mace/focus + GS 66006 build will likely be meta. Hammer/GS 66060 DPS build maybe and sword/scepter completely removed from the meta. Warrior will become more dull in that instead of “DPS build” and “PS build” you will just have a DPS/PS build without fast hands so you’re literally going to camp GS and “zzzzz”

Engi may have some variation though, which I’ll be happy about

I’m a Necromancer main, so I’m likely more disappointed than most.

… But overall the changes are great. Most classes get a lot of interesting and innovative tweaks and I really like how this system paves the way for further expansion and diversity in the future. Hopefully they’ll find a niche for the Necromancer, work out the details on the Engineer and various other classes. When it’s polished, this system is going to be great fun, I know it.

what ppl see here: let’s remove builds that don’t work for our meta so you can use the meta builds.
what i see: let’s limit the choice of making a build how i want it and simply force players to play how meta freaks want you to play.
how Anet sees this: i want this game to spoon-feed me so much that i can only use perfect builds, diversity is not needed.

There are a ton of changes. Some professions gain from this slightly. Guardian comes to mind, while others are hit hard. Mesmers are being nerfed into the ground in WvW (large group play, not roaming) taking a big dps hit, and large scale PvE. I’ll just put up a link to a thread I made about that:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Make-illusions-invuln-upon-shatter-skill/first#post5007686

But, don’t be fooled; diversity is limited. We will only have 10 options of trait lines, for, as it currently stands, trait lines are all or nothing and we can only choose 3 out of 5. There are a bunch of traits that are still useless and others that are just so much better.

Also, as others have pointed out, some are mutually exclusive, so we can’t complement our play style by choosing both things that existed before. We are being forced into cookie cutter builds that don’t complement our play style.

Coming from someone who doesn’t care about the ‘meta’ except to occasionally get mad about people using the term ‘meta’ wrongly, this is what I see.

People sense things going away and they don’t like it. They don’t like the loss conceptually.

~~~

This kind of change is definitely a thing that can go too far, but this is what I’ve realized in the process:

The number of possible builds has gone down, but the number of distinctive builds has gone up

I don’t give a fig about how the meta-mongers limit it down, the number of builds within a class that are substantially different from each other instead of just kind of mushing along between one variation and the other has gone up substantially.

There may be more power in some weaker traits, which is great, but it’s still a far shot from the diversity it could have bolstered. So many slots where just like now it’d be dumb to take certain traits.

Windsagio.1340:

Coming from someone who doesn’t care about the ‘meta’ except to occasionally get mad about people using the term ‘meta’ wrongly, this is what I see.

People sense things going away and they don’t like it. They don’t like the loss conceptually.

~~~

This kind of change is definitely a thing that can go too far, but this is what I’ve realized in the process:

The number of possible builds has gone down, but the number of distinctive builds has gone up

I don’t give a fig about how the meta-mongers limit it down, the number of builds within a class that are substantially different from each other instead of just kind of mushing along between one variation and the other has gone up substantially.

not true

most builds for most jobs i looked at, are versions of old builds (not surprising, most of the traits are old)
the major newness, is stats not being linked, so you can go power/crit in other lines. But that only required decoupling.

some other things are better due to new traits.
but new traits never required the system itself.

Im not gonna tell them not to do the change, that ship has sailed,
but i also have to be truthful
there are way less builds total
there are mostly the same amount of viable builds as before.

At this point, my goal is to see how they can fix some problems with the system as it stands. Its more important than before that every trait, and the traits its in line with/competing with be really well selected.

Everything is not perfect, its still a work in progress, and it will take as much work to balance things.
Its a waste of time to act like people are just making up their problems with the system. The effects are there. The goal is to minimize the losses, and make this system work as well as possible.

in order to do that, its best to look at the limitations, and point out where some things look off.

I totally agree that the system needs a lot of revision and tuning, there’s things I think could be reworked too (As Jerus mentions there are some specialization tiers with 1 REALLY CLEAR CHOICE and that needs to be fixed).

The thing is, most people are just making problems, both from that just being how MMO fans work and from the fact that stuff is being taken away.

Any change whatsoever gets a negative reaction about this strong (to go with the positive reaction), and this one is a bit worse because we’re (on paper) losing about half the traits.

The thing is, to me, we need to get past the kneejerkers before we can really discuss what’s missing and what’s not, what’s broken and what’s not

edit: Go back and read the OP, you’ll see what I’m talking about in spades.

There seems to be some lack of understanding between people seeing more/less diversity as to how the other side could possibly see it that way. Think of it like this:

Let’s say they change it so that when you choose a warrior, you have 5 distinct types to choose from. Greatsword signet berserker, mace and shield shout tank, whatever. Each one looks and plays different, but they are presets; you don’t choose anything about their appearance or traits/skills.

Most people aren’t going to make 5 different warriors, I’d say most aren’t even going to use 5 different builds with their one warrior. This system is more choice and variation than they even saw before. With all the professions, that’s 40 different character types, far more than most players will use.

There are many choices with this system, but there is zero customization. You select a character, you do not make one. Alternatively, think of the armor set vs outfits argument. Imagine that Anet declares that they are removing the wardrobe system so that there is no more mix and matching, and no more dyes. All armor appearance will be outfits. As a result, there is less clipping and most armor generally looks better, but most people always look about the same. Again, there is no customization.

Different games have made systems like either choice work just fine. Before you can even look at whether a system is “good” or not, it needs to be recognized that they appeal to completely different types of players for completely different reasons. The problem arising is that the proposed specializations seem to dramatically change course from something for everybody to everything for only one side.

People argue about outfits because this is human nature; they want to change things more toward their own benefit and preferences, it’s just how it goes. We have some degree of both options and it works fine, players can choose whichever they prefer. With traits, “complete” builds aren’t immediately clear and distinct, but they’re there. Some players can choose those and others can choose to sift through the parts and customize as they wish. Large player bases are diverse, and people play differently.

People are getting so angry because the specialization system completely favors one side. Those who are being favored naturally don’t see any problem, it looks great to them, and they don’t understand how people can see it as anything but improvement. Those who are not feel like Anet is acting like a parent telling their kids “I know you normally both get a slice of pie, but…I’ve suddenly decided I like your brother better so he gets everything. In exchange you get nothing.”

No discussion is going to get anywhere if people don’t look past “it’s good/bad for me so it obviously must be right/wrong for everyone.”

That’s such an arbitrary definition of ‘customization’.

The goal is to make an expandable and balanceable sytem, and they succeeded in that.

The current setup is neither, and so skill and trait extension is at a dead end.

The upcoming system is more of a framework at this point. The trait balance is off, we’re missing a line, and we don’t have any extra lines…

The thing is, and I want to repeat, this is why they did it, is now they can add extra specialization lines without breaking everything or having an insoluable balance consideration.

It was a longterm decision for the ongoing growth of the game, and it has tradeoffs. But they’re tradeoffs that will be mitigated if and as they expand the content.

~~~

There’s an interesting side-discussion on this, when designing a game, the question comes up of ‘how far are we willing to go to let the player screw themselves over?’

And seriously, the discussion should be about the specifics (now that we have the basics of them) not “OH GOD THIS SYSTEM SUCKS! I HAVEN’T USED IT YET BUT I NO LONGER HAVE THE POWER TO MAKE ALL MY MAJOR TRAIT SELECTIONS ADD UP TO PRIME NUMERS!”

Let’s talk about what trees need to be rearranged, or what skills need to be buffed or nerfed, not complaining about a change that is done and done (especially since at least half the people seem to like the change)

The only issue I have is not being able to put an adept trait into a grandmaster slot and so on.
We have unlocked it so why not let us use it as we wish or is this system in place to keep balance in the builds or is it there to make sure that the newer players have a simple and streamlined idiots guide to making balanced builds and therefore screwing over those who can actually make complex builds?

I’m pretty happy. My venoms thief is going to explode with all the new options and functionality open to her

mrstealth.6701:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Also alot of people invested by buying specific armor and gear for their build in the form of ascended weaponary and such and after all that fine tuning they pull out the rug from under us because they want a new rug which will be better able for future additions. (Which could be explained as a necessary evil or something that’s not worth it) Plus who’s not to say they won’t do this later on when they change their minds again.

I’m very surprised this hasn’t come up more often. Of course, any change to skills and traits comes with the chance of nerfing builds and causing gear to need replaced. But these are some sweeping changes across more than just the traits themselves that are going to affect a larger number of players.

I know I’m most likely going to need to replace some lost vitality from the 4th traitline. Having the stats on gear increased doesn’t compensate for that when we’re using little/no vitality gear. The base stat is only going up by around 75, so someone with 6 points into their 4th/vit traitline and no vit gear will lose 2250 HP.

The hardest hit stats will be condition damage and healing power, unless they raise their (currently 0) base stat by a significant amount. I have at least one build where the 300 condi damage from a traitline is a huge portion of the build’s overall condi damage stat. Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2. I doubt that the condi damage stat on my gear will be boosted enough to make up for that loss.

The funny thing is that 3 years ago I was arguing against having stats in trait lines. It would have been a great idea to uncouple them at that time. But now, it’s too late for changes like that. Coupled stats and traitlines do somewhat push us down certain paths, but we have already embraced the idea, integrated it into our builds, and built our gear around it.

The only two useful comments i’ve seen after reading through the whole thread.

mrstealth.6701:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Also alot of people invested by buying specific armor and gear for their build in the form of ascended weaponary and such and after all that fine tuning they pull out the rug from under us because they want a new rug which will be better able for future additions. (Which could be explained as a necessary evil or something that’s not worth it) Plus who’s not to say they won’t do this later on when they change their minds again.

I’m very surprised this hasn’t come up more often. Of course, any change to skills and traits comes with the chance of nerfing builds and causing gear to need replaced. But these are some sweeping changes across more than just the traits themselves that are going to affect a larger number of players.

I know I’m most likely going to need to replace some lost vitality from the 4th traitline. Having the stats on gear increased doesn’t compensate for that when we’re using little/no vitality gear. The base stat is only going up by around 75, so someone with 6 points into their 4th/vit traitline and no vit gear will lose 2250 HP.

The hardest hit stats will be condition damage and healing power, unless they raise their (currently 0) base stat by a significant amount. I have at least one build where the 300 condi damage from a traitline is a huge portion of the build’s overall condi damage stat. Somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2. I doubt that the condi damage stat on my gear will be boosted enough to make up for that loss.

The funny thing is that 3 years ago I was arguing against having stats in trait lines. It would have been a great idea to uncouple them at that time. But now, it’s too late for changes like that. Coupled stats and traitlines do somewhat push us down certain paths, but we have already embraced the idea, integrated it into our builds, and built our gear around it.

Good points especially when ascended gear is such a grind. There is a definite risk that current armor will be invalidated. And the point on condition damage and healing also needs to be borne in mind by anet especially for those running condition builds.

I wouldn’t be surprised if ascended gear got blanked out on day one, so you get to re-select the attributes. They’ve done something similar before, and I’m assuming they will use the same method here.

Not very high on my list of worries, honestly.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Things won’t change. There will still be optimal builds for dungeons/fractals.

Things won’t change. There will still be meta builds for PVP.

Things won’t change. There will still be the best builds for WvW.

Which is easier to balance? A trait that competes against 5/9/12 other traits vs. a trait that competes against 2 other traits.

If trait 1 is too strong, ANet doesn’t even have to nerf it. ANet can simply bring the other two traits up to trait 1’s power.

runeblade.7514:

Which is easier to balance? A trait that competes against 5/9/12 other traits vs. a trait that competes against 2 other traits.

If trait 1 is too strong, ANet doesn’t even have to nerf it. ANet can simply bring the other two traits up to trait 1’s power.

A lot of traits are still going to outclassed no matter how much they get buffed, because they are simply too situation or niche to take over the obviously better option.

Two great examples of this are the guardian’s zeal and radiance grandmaster traits.

Zeal
Expeditious Spirit – Spirit weapons burn foes they strike. Spirit weapon summon and command skills recharge faster.

Shattered Aegis – When an aegis you applied is removed, it damages nearby foes.

Symbolic Avenger – You deal more damage to foes standing in your symbols.

If you’re using Zeal, you’re almost certainly using a weapon that has symbols on it. Most guardian weapons do have one. Symbolic Avenger’s damage boost is the obvious trait choice.

Expeditious Spirit is totally useless to anyone not using on spirit weapons. No matter how much you buff it, it’s still going to be of zero use to anyone not using spirit weapons.

Shattered Aegis fairs a bit better in general usefulness, but how often are you actually applying an aegis for that to trigger? Even if the damage were buffed, you’d need Communal Defenses from the Valor line and a build stacked with blocks in order for it to compare.

Radiance
Amplified Wrath – Burning Damage is increased. Burn enemies whose attacks you block.

Perfect Inscriptions – Gain light aura when activating a signet. Signets recharge faster and have improved passive effects.

Radiant Retaliation – Retaliation damage scales from condition damage instead of power.

This is a pretty bad set of choices. Amplified Wrath is the only general option, and it’s not all that good of one. Even with the changes to burning, are we really expecting condi focused guardians to be a thing? And this is another trait that is less useful unless your build is block heavy. This going to be the obvious choice simply because the other two are completely useless outside of specific builds.

Perfect Inscriptions is another trait that is limited to being useful only with certain utilities. If you’re not using a signet heavy build, this is of no use.

Radiant Retaliation takes the prize for niche trait in this line. This is for those that want to combine heavy use of retal and a condition damage build. This trait isn’t seeing use with the current system, and it’s most likely going to stay that way.

I don’t see whats wrong niche traits existing like “Expeditious Spirit,” “Amplified Wrath,” “Perfect Inscriptions,” or “Radiant Retaliation” as long as they have a purpose. Especially if they are grandmaster trait. Those are the build defining trait, If players aren’t building around grandmaster traits, then they have failed as a grandmaster.

I do agree that a lot of traitlines needs to have more jack of all trades traits.

Specialization aren’t final and because of that, ANet/the community can easily identify and fix the mistake of traitlines being too specific or that it is too powerful/weak. In the current trait system, the problem would be hard to fix as it would destroy the balance of the profession for all builds.

runeblade.7514:

I don’t see whats wrong niche traits existing like “Expeditious Spirit,” “Amplified Wrath,” “Perfect Inscriptions,” or “Radiant Retaliation” as long as they have a purpose.

I do agree that a lot of traitlines needs to have more jack of all trades traits.

Specialization aren’t final and because of that, ANet/the community can easily identify and fix the mistake of traitlines being too specific or that it is too powerful/weak. In the current trait system, the problem would be hard to fix as it would destroy the balance of the profession for all builds.

point is specialization traits do need to exist.
however now that every trait choice is 1/3 that takes a lot of possibilities out of the running.

combine that with being fully specced into every line, and you begin to have to pick things just because they are there.

runeblade.7514:

I don’t see whats wrong niche traits existing like “Expeditious Spirit,” “Amplified Wrath,” “Perfect Inscriptions,” or “Radiant Retaliation” as long as they have a purpose.

I didn’t mean that those traits existing was wrong. They’re interesting traits, and they can bring about some unique possibilities. But there does need to be some flexibility to where you aren’t forced to choose between a set of niche traits, or have an obvious choice you’re herded into picking.

The Radiance line has the first problem. You’d most likely be better off passing on the grandmaster trait in favor of another line’s adept. But that is no longer an option. If a more generally useful trait is put in the line, then that trait becomes the obvious choice for anyone not running one of the niche builds. This is a better situation, but still more limiting than the current system.

The latter the issue is what Zeal has, but to a more extreme degree. The minor traits (and weapon skills) are pretty much herding you into choosing Symbolic Avenger. Even if you are going for a niche build that could use the other traits, Symbolic Avenger is still the better option.

The core problem is being forced into choosing grandmaster traits. Its hard to give us good choices when there are only 3 possibilities for that slot. Being able to place lower tier traits there, or simply not investing fully into a line, give more opportunity to have niche traits. You don’t have to shoehorn in a general trait just to make the line viable.

Windsagio.1340:

And seriously, the discussion should be about the specifics (now that we have the basics of them) not “OH GOD THIS SYSTEM SUCKS! I HAVEN’T USED IT YET BUT I NO LONGER HAVE THE POWER TO MAKE ALL MY MAJOR TRAIT SELECTIONS ADD UP TO PRIME NUMERS!”

Let’s talk about what trees need to be rearranged, or what skills need to be buffed or nerfed, not complaining about a change that is done and done (especially since at least half the people seem to like the change)

I completely agree.

There are 2 problems the way I see it.

First, you have trait lines where there is one clear choice. Example Zeal Adept for Guardian, Fiery Wrath is almost a guaranteed pick. Even when Might on Scepter would be fully utilized I doubt it’ll break the point of a flat 10% more damage period.

The other problem is that they don’t seem to have balanced out weapon choices very well. Example being Elementalists, Staff builds should get better, Dagger builds slightly worse and Scepter builds will be trash in PVE if the LH nerf goes through on top of the trait changes. Likewise Guardian is going to see a huge buff to symbol based damage with a 10% flat increase to their damage and 20% if the enemy is within one, this will greatly buff mace and hammer as well as a nice little buff to Greatsword. This however leaves scepter and sword completely out.

Currently before any new traits we have a very solid balance in PVE. Elementalists use Staff for high damage, Scepter+LH for max might stack, and Dagger/Focus for max utility and an overall more free flowing play style. All 3 are viable weapon combos, D/F great for PUGs, Staff amazing when you have another source of might, and S+LH is a great tool to maximize damage output while acting as the might giver.

Again not just Ele seeing this problem, Guardian as well. Scepter is top dog against larger hitbox targets (Lupi and Bloomhunger come to mind), Mace is awesome for it’s block and healing at the cost of damage capabilities (slower attacks and less potential), and sword is your go to for general damage as well as some situational uses for the other skills defensively. For PVE all but Shield had a use in optimal play. With the changes I fear that Mace will exceed Scepter/Sword so much that those two will sit in my bags most of the time.

With this is I guess a third concern… power creep. I hope the devs have a plan for that, I think it’s a big enough and well known enough issue that I doubt they’d overlook it so I have faith there, but I do think they need to go back to the drawing board on a few of these things and do a bit of tweaking. Give D/F back it’s relative spot to the other weapons, reconsider the LH nerf, give Sword/Scepter decent traits for guardian and re-evaluate the strength of 3-4s of retal on actions that happen every dozen+ seconds.

I said from the start, I think the change could go very well, in some situations I feel they did a very good job. Engineer is shaping up to be quite the diverse profession it’s supposed to be. Meta will likely be 66006 but there’s a lot of wiggle room on that last 6 points to grab some other useful tools like 66600 reflect/heal build with fortified turrets and heal-splosions. 66060 for more personal survival. Really a great job they’ve done with Engi so far, hope TBD turns out as well as the rest looks, really top notch job done on that profession. The rest need a little more work to catch that same type of situation.

God, why do these things always end up so long! >.<

TL DR : Still some traits that are bad making singular choices in lines. There is also an imbalance in weapon choices for some professions where some weapons will simply be left out due to power gains in others or losses on that weapon. Both of these need addressed imo.

mrstealth.6701:

The core problem is being forced into choosing grandmaster traits. Its hard to give us good choices when there are only 3 possibilities for that slot. Being able to place lower tier traits there, or simply not investing fully into a line, give more opportunity to have niche traits. You don’t have to shoehorn in a general trait just to make the line viable.

Then ANet needs to buff Shattered Aegis just so you can consider choosing it.

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

Ok Let’s see what we got :

An AA tanking gardian lose either heal/defensive symbole for sustain which are in Honor or pure blind defensive power by spamming F1 in radiance or easy boon generation which is in Virtue. Overall it’s a net loss in survivability because you need this minor trait to survive and this is 4 different traitline.

Playing a tanky Necromancer based spectral, WH and siphon. I had a build that needed curse, Death magic, blood magic and soul reaping. A build really effective that didn’t care about bad GM trait. Now, I can stretch it in whatever way I want, I can gain meaning full buff here and there but whatever I do, I still have a net loss in survivability. (I could even say that these changes shut down any hope for necromancer’s siphon to have any usefullness ever, people tried and tried again it’s impossible DS hurt siphons and with these change DS will remain whatever elite specializations they can add)

Lot’s of mesmers builds are shaken to their very core because deceptive evasion is becoming a GM trait which will result in a net loss of dps, survivability and support.

I think it’s already enough for the challenge.

There is one more thing. This system, with the traits as they’ve been presented lock down a lot of prefession into their own weakness without any hope that a specialization may correct any of them.

The most meaningfull exemple being the necromancer which starve to be free from the shackles that come along with DS. DS prevent any buff to siphon and at the same time DS prevent siphon to be effective. DS prevent any new defensives means to appear because DS is supposed to be the defensive mean (with it’s strengh and flaw). DS prevent any new support because it’s also supposed to be the support mean. Each and every trait that are scattered in all necromancer’s traitline are Nails on it’s own coffin preventing him to see the light of an evolution.

And it will be the same for every other profession, this system only allow poor addition like the underwater DS that can’t even work with some of the necromancer’s DS traits.

runeblade.7514:

mrstealth.6701:

The core problem is being forced into choosing grandmaster traits. Its hard to give us good choices when there are only 3 possibilities for that slot. Being able to place lower tier traits there, or simply not investing fully into a line, give more opportunity to have niche traits. You don’t have to shoehorn in a general trait just to make the line viable.

Then ANet needs to buff Shattered Aegis just so you can consider choosing it.

Symbolic Avenger is just so strong as is, it’s going to be difficult to get the other traits to compare even when you are building for them. I think nerfing Symbolic Avenger might be better. Or perhaps nerfing it, while also buffing Shattered Aegis. But even buffed, Shattered Aegis is still very dependent on your build’s ability to spam aegis, which has a few other dependencies.

I really like the new trait system. It encourages traiting to define your style rather than effectiveness. With clear decisions to be made, rather than trying to combine too many parts of too many trees.

ExtraCosmic is proved right with a lot of posts in this thread.

runeblade.7514:

TheFantasticGman.9451:

Things won’t change. There will still be optimal builds for dungeons/fractals.

Things won’t change. There will still be meta builds for PVP.

Things won’t change. There will still be the best builds for WvW.

Which is easier to balance? A trait that competes against 5/9/12 other traits vs. a trait that competes against 2 other traits..

This way is a helluva lot easier to balance I imagine… which is why I think cost (monetary to the company) is the #1 reason for the trait revamp, not any of this lip service about “diversity” (because diversity has always been there). The less time Developers are spending on balancing the more money the company has to spend in other places or put into the profit bucket.

mrstealth.6701:

runeblade.7514:

mrstealth.6701:

The core problem is being forced into choosing grandmaster traits. Its hard to give us good choices when there are only 3 possibilities for that slot. Being able to place lower tier traits there, or simply not investing fully into a line, give more opportunity to have niche traits. You don’t have to shoehorn in a general trait just to make the line viable.

Then ANet needs to buff Shattered Aegis just so you can consider choosing it.

Symbolic Avenger is just so strong as is, it’s going to be difficult to get the other traits to compare even when you are building for them. I think nerfing Symbolic Avenger might be better. Or perhaps nerfing it, while also buffing Shattered Aegis. But even buffed, Shattered Aegis is still very dependent on your build’s ability to spam aegis, which has a few other dependencies.

Yeah, I mean Symbolic Avenger is going to be very limited when you have mobile enemies, surely due to be looked at, but it has taht big limitation. So for PVE purposes, basically if you’re kiting a boss, you won’t get much use out of it. However, you won’t get use out of shattered Aegis’s small radius either.

Dadnir.5038:

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

Ok Let’s see what we got :

An AA tanking gardian lose either heal/defensive symbole for sustain which are in Honor or pure blind defensive power by spamming F1 in radiance or easy boon generation which is in Virtue. Overall it’s a net loss in survivability because you need this minor trait to survive and this is 4 different traitline.

Playing a tanky Necromancer based spectral, WH and siphon. I had a build that needed curse, Death magic, blood magic and soul reaping. A build really effective that didn’t care about bad GM trait. Now, I can stretch it in whatever way I want, I can gain meaning full buff here and there but whatever I do, I still have a net loss in survivability. (I could even say that these changes shut down any hope for necromancer’s siphon to have any usefullness ever, people tried and tried again it’s impossible DS hurt siphons and with these change DS will remain whatever elite specializations they can add)

Lot’s of mesmers builds are shaken to their very core because deceptive evasion is becoming a GM trait which will result in a net loss of dps, survivability and support.

I think it’s already enough for the challenge.

There is one more thing. This system, with the traits as they’ve been presented lock down a lot of prefession into their own weakness without any hope that a specialization may correct any of them.

The most meaningfull exemple being the necromancer which starve to be free from the shackles that come along with DS. DS prevent any buff to siphon and at the same time DS prevent siphon to be effective. DS prevent any new defensives means to appear because DS is supposed to be the defensive mean (with it’s strengh and flaw). DS prevent any new support because it’s also supposed to be the support mean. Each and every trait that are scattered in all necromancer’s traitline are Nails on it’s own coffin preventing him to see the light of an evolution.

And it will be the same for every other profession, this system only allow poor addition like the underwater DS that can’t even work with some of the necromancer’s DS traits.

You’re wrong in the first case, pure tank guardian is fine with these changes, blind isn’t a necessary part of your tank build if you play/are built right and your team plays right

Can’t speak for necros, I know they’re pretty unhappy (beyond normal new change levels), gonna look into it now ><.

Windsagio.1340:

And seriously, the discussion should be about the specifics!

Let’s talk about what trees need to be rearranged, or what skills need to be buffed or nerfed, not complaining about a change that is done and done (especially since at least half the people seem to like the change)

Completely agree, atleast Anet is communicating with us, now it’s the community’s turn to be mature and come up with constructive critisim. Not just rage and flame, which accomplishes nothing really.

Windsagio.1340:

Dadnir.5038:

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

Ok Let’s see what we got :

An AA tanking gardian lose either heal/defensive symbole for sustain which are in Honor or pure blind defensive power by spamming F1 in radiance or easy boon generation which is in Virtue. Overall it’s a net loss in survivability because you need this minor trait to survive and this is 4 different traitline.

Playing a tanky Necromancer based spectral, WH and siphon. I had a build that needed curse, Death magic, blood magic and soul reaping. A build really effective that didn’t care about bad GM trait. Now, I can stretch it in whatever way I want, I can gain meaning full buff here and there but whatever I do, I still have a net loss in survivability. (I could even say that these changes shut down any hope for necromancer’s siphon to have any usefullness ever, people tried and tried again it’s impossible DS hurt siphons and with these change DS will remain whatever elite specializations they can add)

Lot’s of mesmers builds are shaken to their very core because deceptive evasion is becoming a GM trait which will result in a net loss of dps, survivability and support.

I think it’s already enough for the challenge.

There is one more thing. This system, with the traits as they’ve been presented lock down a lot of prefession into their own weakness without any hope that a specialization may correct any of them.

The most meaningfull exemple being the necromancer which starve to be free from the shackles that come along with DS. DS prevent any buff to siphon and at the same time DS prevent siphon to be effective. DS prevent any new defensives means to appear because DS is supposed to be the defensive mean (with it’s strengh and flaw). DS prevent any new support because it’s also supposed to be the support mean. Each and every trait that are scattered in all necromancer’s traitline are Nails on it’s own coffin preventing him to see the light of an evolution.

And it will be the same for every other profession, this system only allow poor addition like the underwater DS that can’t even work with some of the necromancer’s DS traits.

You’re wrong in the first case, pure tank guardian is fine with these changes, blind isn’t a necessary part of your tank build if you play/are built right and your team plays right

Can’t speak for necros, I know they’re pretty unhappy (beyond normal new change levels), gonna look into it now ><.

Well I know my Mesmer isn’t crying over DE becoming a GM trait. (PvE only so I can’t comment on PvP) but yeah DE is not important to my build and even if it was they are not culling it. Just rearranging it.

I see this a a chance to play new content and old content in a new way which sounds awesome, and yay for not just grinding the same content the exact same way forever. Clearly this system isn’t going to be perfect not even close but everyone raging when they haven’t even tried it is so sad. Like if you want to play a game that NEVER changes go play Legue or something I guess. ????

I want to dig through a tree for analycrit, but works killing me too much forr anything in-depth

Kitrine.5913:

Windsagio.1340:

Dadnir.5038:

Windsagio.1340:

Was deciding which off the many threads to put this in, this wone will do.

DIfferent builds aren’t diverse builds

Adding Bolt to the Heart and Vital striking and stone splinters didn’t change the way you played, they just increased damage (the limitations weren’t meaningful),

Taking all 3 symbol traits in the guardian Honor line, was meaningfully playstyle defining, and it required you downgrade your GM trait to master… So they made it so the ‘play defining trait’ is the grandmaster in the tree. Similarly in the same tree if you wanted to do shouts.

Almost all the ‘diversity’ people are complaining about is minor damage optimizations and nothing that speaks to the real play style.

In fact, that’s my challenge.

Present a play style that’s lost with this change NOT a specific build, but a way of playing.

I honestly can’t think of any.

Ok Let’s see what we got :

An AA tanking gardian lose either heal/defensive symbole for sustain which are in Honor or pure blind defensive power by spamming F1 in radiance or easy boon generation which is in Virtue. Overall it’s a net loss in survivability because you need this minor trait to survive and this is 4 different traitline.

Playing a tanky Necromancer based spectral, WH and siphon. I had a build that needed curse, Death magic, blood magic and soul reaping. A build really effective that didn’t care about bad GM trait. Now, I can stretch it in whatever way I want, I can gain meaning full buff here and there but whatever I do, I still have a net loss in survivability. (I could even say that these changes shut down any hope for necromancer’s siphon to have any usefullness ever, people tried and tried again it’s impossible DS hurt siphons and with these change DS will remain whatever elite specializations they can add)

Lot’s of mesmers builds are shaken to their very core because deceptive evasion is becoming a GM trait which will result in a net loss of dps, survivability and support.

I think it’s already enough for the challenge.

There is one more thing. This system, with the traits as they’ve been presented lock down a lot of prefession into their own weakness without any hope that a specialization may correct any of them.

The most meaningfull exemple being the necromancer which starve to be free from the shackles that come along with DS. DS prevent any buff to siphon and at the same time DS prevent siphon to be effective. DS prevent any new defensives means to appear because DS is supposed to be the defensive mean (with it’s strengh and flaw). DS prevent any new support because it’s also supposed to be the support mean. Each and every trait that are scattered in all necromancer’s traitline are Nails on it’s own coffin preventing him to see the light of an evolution.

And it will be the same for every other profession, this system only allow poor addition like the underwater DS that can’t even work with some of the necromancer’s DS traits.

You’re wrong in the first case, pure tank guardian is fine with these changes, blind isn’t a necessary part of your tank build if you play/are built right and your team plays right

Can’t speak for necros, I know they’re pretty unhappy (beyond normal new change levels), gonna look into it now ><.

Well I know my Mesmer isn’t crying over DE becoming a GM trait. (PvE only so I can’t comment on PvP) but yeah DE is not important to my build and even if it was they are not culling it. Just rearranging it.

I see this a a chance to play new content and old content in a new way which sounds awesome, and yay for not just grinding the same content the exact same way forever. Clearly this system isn’t going to be perfect not even close but everyone raging when they haven’t even tried it is so sad. Like if you want to play a game that NEVER changes go play Legue or something I guess. ????

GM is no longer relevant to anything, its more about your choices in that slot.

The position of DE only really kills non phantasm mantra builds. But IMO thats a good playstyle to keep.
The could keep it GM but move it to another teir, or move harmonious.

however if you dont care about HM/DE of course it wont effect you.

I’ve never felt HM fit in that tree anyways, feels ‘off’ to me ><

Windsagio.1340:

I’ve never felt HM fit in that tree anyways, feels ‘off’ to me ><

pretty sure it was in the power line initially, then they juggled/combined it or something. But i could be misremembering.

phys.7689:

Windsagio.1340:

I’ve never felt HM fit in that tree anyways, feels ‘off’ to me ><

pretty sure it was in the power line initially, then they juggled/combined it or something. But i could be misremembering.

HM is not 1 trait, its one of those merged ones, originally we had 5 1 was for toughness while channeling mantras but its base lined now, inspiration line has the when you chant mantra you aoe heal.

The remaining three were for cd, 4% dmg boost for every readied mantra and the 1+ to mantra stacks, those last three were merged and place din dueling. Even though the 4% one was originally duelings gm it switched with the dom line’s 1+ stack trait a while back.

I do find it some what interesting that the OP has seen maybe 5%, if that, of the changes and how they work. Yet demands he can tell the population how bad it is for us.

It appears to me, your making entirely unprovable speculation, while confusing your subjective opinion with that of subjective fact.

coglin.1867:

I do find it some what interesting that the OP has seen maybe 5%, if that, of the changes and how they work. Yet demands he can tell the population how bad it is for us.

It appears to me, your making entirely unprovable speculation, while confusing your subjective opinion with that of subjective fact.

This topic started after the stream, so the current iteration of trait changes was fully known at the time. But you don’t need to see a single specific trait change to see how the system is very restrictive.

mrstealth.6701:

coglin.1867:

I do find it some what interesting that the OP has seen maybe 5%, if that, of the changes and how they work. Yet demands he can tell the population how bad it is for us.

It appears to me, your making entirely unprovable speculation, while confusing your subjective opinion with that of subjective fact.

This topic started after the stream, so the current iteration of trait changes was fully known at the time. But you don’t need to see a single specific trait change to see how the system is very restrictive.

By all means, explain to me if you will, how one does not need to be aware of all the specific changes to declare it restrictive or not?

Particularly since we do not know all of the current iteration of trait changes, we are only aware of a few or at best, some of them.

coglin.1867:

mrstealth.6701:

coglin.1867:

I do find it some what interesting that the OP has seen maybe 5%, if that, of the changes and how they work. Yet demands he can tell the population how bad it is for us.

It appears to me, your making entirely unprovable speculation, while confusing your subjective opinion with that of subjective fact.

This topic started after the stream, so the current iteration of trait changes was fully known at the time. But you don’t need to see a single specific trait change to see how the system is very restrictive.

By all means, explain to me if you will, how one does not need to be aware of all the specific changes to declare it restrictive or not?

Particularly since we do not know all of the current iteration of trait changes, we are only aware of a few or at best, some of them.

We’ve been shown their plans, they asked for feedback. Doom and gloom certainly isn’t the best option but neither is shutting your eyes and covering your ears screaming “lalalalala nothing to see here, it doesn’t mean anything”.

Also, it is more restrictive. The meta-conversation is whether being more restrictive is automatically bad or not.

As J said, they’ve asked for real feedback, let’s work to get specific lines fixed up so each one has the most interesting possible choices at each tier.

coglin.1867:

mrstealth.6701:

coglin.1867:

I do find it some what interesting that the OP has seen maybe 5%, if that, of the changes and how they work. Yet demands he can tell the population how bad it is for us.

It appears to me, your making entirely unprovable speculation, while confusing your subjective opinion with that of subjective fact.

This topic started after the stream, so the current iteration of trait changes was fully known at the time. But you don’t need to see a single specific trait change to see how the system is very restrictive.

By all means, explain to me if you will, how one does not need to be aware of all the specific changes to declare it restrictive or not?

Particularly since we do not know all of the current iteration of trait changes, we are only aware of a few or at best, some of them.

You can see nearly every trait in detail right now. The only missing details are engineer specifics and certain traits that have variable effects depending on attunement/certain shatter skill etc (some of these only show the effect for a single circumstance).

http://dulfy.net/2015/04/24/gw2-specializations-ama-livestream-notes/

But you don’t need to see any specific traits to realize that there are a lot more restrictions. We are no longer able to use only part of a trait line. If you only want a single adept trait, you’re forced to also pick master and grandmaster traits. You can also no longer choose traits from a lower tier for a slot. Currently, a master trait slot has 10 possible optoins (4 master, and 6 adept). With the new system that slot has only 3 master trait options.