Guild Wars 2

I understand the concerns I’ve been seeing over the specialization system, but I personally have to disagree with them. The system you’ve laid out in these blog posts is fantastic and I can’t wait to play with it.

Trait line attributes

The trait line attributes are an abomination that limits build diversity and really shafts weapons that don’t synergize well with the stats tied to the trait lines that their traits are in (caugh, Mesmer Torch and Ranger Greatsword cooldown reduction traits, caugh). The removal of stats from these lines will provide a fantastic grounds for future balance and help increase weapon variety among the professions.

Trait unlocks

The current trait unlock system is an unnecessary nuisance at best. The proposed one is much less punishing and should really help players feel a sense of progress as they level without placing an enormous burden on altoholics. As an altoholic, I thank you.

The removal of useless traits

It’s no secret that roughly half of the traits, both minor and major, range from subpar to laughably bad. Their removal won’t necessarily increase build variety, but it will streamline the system and allow for greater focus on balancing the viable traits. If this system is overly limiting, it can always be expanded slowly through new trait major trait additions.

I personally hope to see a removal of Cooldown Reduction traits as well, as these are among the most diversity-limiting traits in the game. They tend to shaft players down particular utility or weapon combinations, and the placement of these can really make or break a weapon.

All-or-nothing

The decision to equip trait lines was one that took me by surprise, but it’s one that I’m pleased with. It feels like a more logical system from a roleplaying standpoint, and it’s nice and simple to boot.

More meaningful choices

Every build in the new system is effectively a combination of 9 minor and 9 major traits. Every build is comprised of 12 significant choices (3 specializations, which dictate minors and your pool of major traits, then 9 major trait choices). That’s pretty significant, and each choice a player makes certainly looks more impactful than in the current system.

Tier-locked traits are a GOOD thing

This part of the system ensures that each major trait decision is an important one. If you don’t take this trait here, you can’t get it at all. Taking this one means you don’t get these two other possible bonuses. That can be a big decision, if they balance their traits properly, and it helps the Adept, Master, and Grandmaster trait tiers feel distinct and character-defining.

The Elite Specialization system is fascinating

So, each “Elite Specialization” is a unique line that is equipped at the cost of one of your main lines. This was not what I had pictured when I heard about Specializations at all. We knew that we’d be losing something, but this is such a brilliantly simple and effective concept. There is a legitimate reason to stick with current trait lines, as triple-vanilla build will no doubt be a viable thing, but the decision to equip an Elite Specilization is one that simultaneously appears to be a benefit and a choice. Just, brilliant. Bravo.

The destruction of a personal fear

My own speculation had led me to believe that Specializations (now called Elite Specializations) would be biased in favor of a particular damage type or build path, simply because their new weapons or utilities encouraged this. In the worst case scenario, I feared that one of the regular trait lines would be arbitrarily lost to us, and we’d lose an entire build path on the specilization. What if, for example, the Mesmer effectively lost their ability to viably build as say, a Condition Shatterer, as a specialized character because many of their most impactful condition damage traits are located in a particular trait line.

The actual system doesn’t have that flaw by any means. The Specialization simply replaces a trait line of your choosing, not a particular one that the player may have wanted or needed for their build. If I want to take the elite specialization for its unique traits alone, I will be able to do so, building it into something highly resembling an already existing playstyle with a brand new set of tricks that suit me better.

My overall thoughts on this

While I would love to see more (VIABLE) traits per tier, the specialization system as a whole is appealing to me.

From the perspective of a regular player (one who will routinely swap their build on the same character), this system is simple, flexible, and pragmatic. It should function well and allow them to change their playstyle on demand.

As a roleplayer, I see a different potential here though. I can distinctly define each character I own. Let’s just say I have two Elementalists. I can give each one affinities that match my imagined character, and then (viably) define them from that point. Each of them then has an identity and a distinct playstyle. The inclusion of an elite specialization (and eventually multiple elite specializations) further enhances this feeling. The experience of an altoholic couldn’t get much better than this.

There are a lot of good things about the new system, and a few really annoying things. The biggest annoyance is that it seems right now that the new system will kill build diversity.
Still, the new system looks much better than the current system, which has a few good things, and mostly really annoying things.

Gern.2978:

There are a lot of good things about the new system, and a few really annoying things. The biggest annoyance is that it seems right now that the new system will kill build diversity.

And that’s where I disagree. Personally I don’t think there was any diversity, the only thing I see is the steadily creeping power curve. It completely ruined any type of build diversity. Why spend gold on being more tanky when you can get this zerker gear and kill that boss 20% faster? This new system isn’t going to kill the “zerker meta” I get that. But what it will do is make everything else more or just as viable to use.

Gern.2978:

it seems right now that the new system will kill useless build diversity.

Fixed.

I’m pretty sure you don’t run 3/3/3/3/2 on your elementalist because its a useless build. Its still part of the variety.

I rather have less useless builds variety and more useful build variety than vice versa.

I used nothing but 6/6/1 spreads to demonstrate we lost almost 99% of our build diversity. None of this 3/3/3/3/2 straw-man junk.

Math is in the main response thread feel free to go there and laugh it off.

Nike.2631:

I used nothing but 6/6/1 spreads to demonstrate we lost almost 99% of our build diversity. None of this 3/3/3/3/2 straw-man junk.

Math is in the main response thread feel free to go there and laugh it off.

The majority of those 6/6/1 spreads weren’t all that diverse though. I can go on my necro and change one trait, say take Chill of Death over Axe Training, and technically have a new build but a new build that doesn’t feel unique. Thats not good diversity. Its looking like the new traits are much more impactful on your build and while we’ll have less traits the traits we choose will matter alot more. Less diversity? Yeah. But the quality of the diversity is a lot higher.

That is yet to be proven. Losing the ability to take 2-3 adept or 2 master level traits in a single line is a savage blow to a lot of existing builds.

I’m not saying the new game won’t be fun, but its only vaguely related to the game we are playing now…

Nike.2631:

That is yet to be proven. Losing the ability to take 2-3 adept or 2 master level traits in a single line is a savage blow to a lot of existing builds.

I’m not saying the new game won’t be fun, but its only vaguely related to the game we are playing now…

They’ve said they’re trying to preserve many of the existing builds. One way their doing that is by merging traits. I’m sure their aware of many builds that use multiple adept or master traits from a line and will preserve them by merging them. You can’t say that a “savage blow” has been dealt if you don’t know how the traits have been modified yet.

I also think the new system is pretty good.

If you are more restrictive, you force people to CHOOSE and this creates build diversity.

So if you compare a couple of games no one remembers: City of Heroes and Champions Online. City of Heroes/Villains made you choose an archetype and get skills from there. Champions Online had a system where you could basically select any ability anywhere.

The problem with the CO system is that people would choose some core abilities for their character and then EVERYONE would choose the same “good abilities” that remained. So by having greater freedom, CO actually reduced build diversity.

This is really an important point. If people can cherry-pick their traits, you are REDUCING BUILD DIVERSITY because everyone will choose their particular flavor and THEN choose the traits that all know are overpowered. By forcing people to have just 3 specializations, you are making people make tough choices, and increasing the diversity of builds.

A Volcano.2510:

I also think the new system is pretty good.

If you are more restrictive, you force people to CHOOSE and this creates build diversity.

Dropping to 27 configurations per trait line from 418 is not creating diversity. It’s slaughtering it. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

Now those 27 can all be good/fun/double-plus-positive/whatever, but “Diverse” they are not.

I am excited, too, about the new specialization system that is incoming. It will allow for more unique characters, imo.

That being said, and I am an old time DaoC player, that saw a similar system(ToA) implemented in that game, that sounds eerily similar……and it killed the game…..so this change concerns me, too……a lot.

ToA failed mainly due to poor implementation. I am trying to have faith in this upcoming change, and hope it doesn’t cause the same types of frustration in this game. The biggest problem that I see that could possibly happen, is that it could open a huge can of worms when it comes to balance issues.

But, I guess I will just wait and see. I hope it all works, but imagine that the playerbase will need a great deal of patience as the new system is implemented and tweaked.

Teon.5168:

I am excited, too, about the new specialization system that is incoming. It will allow for more unique characters, imo.

Why do people keep saying that??!?

‘Unique’ is the one thing we absolutely know the changes are going to stamp out.

If you have a line, you have it at 6. No options. No variations. You have exactly 1 adept, 1 master, and 1 grand master trait. Without fail or exception. 27 choices. Ever.

Nike.2631:

Why do people keep saying that??!?

‘Unique’ is the one thing we absolutely know the changes are going to stamp out.

If you have a line, you have it at 6. No options. No variations. You have exactly 1 adept, 1 master, and 1 grand master trait. Without fail or exception. 27 choices. Ever.

There are also only 9 professions. Everyone must choose only 1 of those 9. No options. No variations. You have exactly 5 weapons skills, 1 heal, 4 utilities and 1 elite. 9 choices. Ever.

Nike.2631:

A Volcano.2510:

I also think the new system is pretty good.

If you are more restrictive, you force people to CHOOSE and this creates build diversity.

Dropping to 27 configurations per trait line from 418 is not creating diversity. It’s slaughtering it. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

Now those 27 can all be good/fun/double-plus-positive/whatever, but “Diverse” they are not.

How many of those 418 combinations are actually good? Maybe 8?

How many different combinations are actually used in meta builds? Maybe 3 different possibilities per trait line for a build type?

Removing the chaff, combining traits and leaving only the good traits will produce more viable options while allowing a better balance to be maintained.

It’s like the change from beta to just before live where Adept, Master and Grandmaster were introduced, before that everyone ran 20/10/10/10/10 and took the most powerful trait for every line with the least points invested.
Did you cry in the same way when that happened and said that build diversity was dead?
If they had shipped like that it would have been disastrous, these changes better streamline the builds even more.
Progression and change is better, let go of your fax machine and learn to e-mail.

Nike.2631:

A Volcano.2510:

I also think the new system is pretty good.

If you are more restrictive, you force people to CHOOSE and this creates build diversity.

Dropping to 27 configurations per trait line from 418 is not creating diversity. It’s slaughtering it. Don’t pretend it’s anything else.

Now those 27 can all be good/fun/double-plus-positive/whatever, but “Diverse” they are not.

Slaughtering useless diversity. Otherwise, you can pretend that a 3/3/3/3/2 Ele build works.

Regardless of whether everyone uses 6/6/1(2) builds (which I don’t think is inherently true), this new system will absolutely kill the perception of diversity. You can’t dispute math. The argument is of course that only 5-10% of available builds in the old system are actually useful. And this is absolutely true, but at least you have some choice to divert if you want to. That’s really the whole point, if I want to run into a quick pvp match with a 4/4/4/2 build, I should be able to even if it is complete garbage. Now I won’t be able to.

This new change to the trait trees are exactly how WOW runs there tree now, and seems to be the trend in most MMOs. The thing I liked most about GW2 when it first came out was shear number of available points I had to use in the trait trees as opposed to what WOW changed to after Cataclysm. Then of course GW2 reduced the number of points allocated for traits last year, and now it looks like they are going to completely streamline it (noobify it) in HoT.

I mean I get, it has to be a lot easier to balance with this new approach, but I still don’t like it.

Nike.2631:

Teon.5168:

I am excited, too, about the new specialization system that is incoming. It will allow for more unique characters, imo.

Why do people keep saying that??!?

‘Unique’ is the one thing we absolutely know the changes are going to stamp out.

If you have a line, you have it at 6. No options. No variations. You have exactly 1 adept, 1 master, and 1 grand master trait. Without fail or exception. 27 choices. Ever.

You need to read the rest of my post.

Sauncho.8076:

Regardless of whether everyone uses 6/6/1(2) builds (which I don’t think is inherently true), this new system will absolutely kill the perception of diversity. You can’t dispute math. The argument is of course that only 5-10% of available builds in the old system are actually useful. And this is absolutely true, but at least you have some choice to divert if you want to. That’s really the whole point, if I want to run into a quick pvp match with a 4/4/4/2 build, I should be able to even if it is complete garbage. Now I won’t be able to.

This new change to the trait trees are exactly how WOW runs there tree now, and seems to be the trend in most MMOs. The thing I liked most about GW2 when it first came out was shear number of available points I had to use in the trait trees as opposed to what WOW changed to after Cataclysm. Then of course GW2 reduced the number of points allocated for traits last year, and now it looks like they are going to completely streamline it (noobify it) in HoT.

I mean I get, it has to be a lot easier to balance with this new approach, but I still don’t like it.

I couldn’t disagree more. You state your opinion as if it were fact. It is not. My opinion is that this change will open a whole slew of new balance problems.

I hope I am wrong. I am excited about the changes. But if they’re implemented badly, this game will have a whole new set of issues when it comes to balance and the nerf bat.

Teon.5168:

Sauncho.8076:

Regardless of whether everyone uses 6/6/1(2) builds (which I don’t think is inherently true), this new system will absolutely kill the perception of diversity. You can’t dispute math. The argument is of course that only 5-10% of available builds in the old system are actually useful. And this is absolutely true, but at least you have some choice to divert if you want to. That’s really the whole point, if I want to run into a quick pvp match with a 4/4/4/2 build, I should be able to even if it is complete garbage. Now I won’t be able to.

This new change to the trait trees are exactly how WOW runs there tree now, and seems to be the trend in most MMOs. The thing I liked most about GW2 when it first came out was shear number of available points I had to use in the trait trees as opposed to what WOW changed to after Cataclysm. Then of course GW2 reduced the number of points allocated for traits last year, and now it looks like they are going to completely streamline it (noobify it) in HoT.

I mean I get, it has to be a lot easier to balance with this new approach, but I still don’t like it.

I couldn’t disagree more. You state your opinion as if it were fact. It is not. My opinion is that this change will open a whole slew of new balance problems.

I hope I am wrong. I am excited about the changes. But if they’re implemented badly, this game will have a whole new set of issues when it comes to balance and the nerf bat.

The only reason I think it will be easier to balance is because there will be less builds to balance. Again, you can’t dispute math. As stated however, I still don’t like less options even if they are perceived.

Sauncho.8076:

Teon.5168:

Sauncho.8076:

Regardless of whether everyone uses 6/6/1(2) builds (which I don’t think is inherently true), this new system will absolutely kill the perception of diversity. You can’t dispute math. The argument is of course that only 5-10% of available builds in the old system are actually useful. And this is absolutely true, but at least you have some choice to divert if you want to. That’s really the whole point, if I want to run into a quick pvp match with a 4/4/4/2 build, I should be able to even if it is complete garbage. Now I won’t be able to.

This new change to the trait trees are exactly how WOW runs there tree now, and seems to be the trend in most MMOs. The thing I liked most about GW2 when it first came out was shear number of available points I had to use in the trait trees as opposed to what WOW changed to after Cataclysm. Then of course GW2 reduced the number of points allocated for traits last year, and now it looks like they are going to completely streamline it (noobify it) in HoT.

I mean I get, it has to be a lot easier to balance with this new approach, but I still don’t like it.

I couldn’t disagree more. You state your opinion as if it were fact. It is not. My opinion is that this change will open a whole slew of new balance problems.

I hope I am wrong. I am excited about the changes. But if they’re implemented badly, this game will have a whole new set of issues when it comes to balance and the nerf bat.

The only reason I think it will be easier to balance is because there will be less builds to balance. Again, you can’t dispute math. As stated however, I still don’t like less options even if they are perceived.

I know I can’t dispute math. But you nerd types seem to think it is that simple. Having played mmorpgs for well over 2 decades, believe me, if it was as simple as just math, all mmorpgs would be killer successes.

I’ve been writing and publishing them for nearly two decades. Which is why the specifics of my argument are the math. The other aspects can be done well or poorly and we don’t know enough to say yet.

This is dumbing down. Grossly so in my opinion. It can pay off. It can turn out well. I hope it will. Unlike, say, the last round of dumbing down GW2 had to endure in the form of the NPE.

Sorry, but there IS cause for concern. Concerns I spelled out almost verbatim over a year ago in the horizontal progression CDI along with the proposal that became the blueprint for Specializations. I’ve been thinking about this on and off for 16 months, not just the last 24 hours. I look forward to learning more tomorrow.

I’m with OP all life. <3 the changes…so much i have to change ma pants

runeblade.7514:

Gern.2978:

it seems right now that the new system will kill useless build diversity.

Fixed.

I’m pretty sure you don’t run 3/3/3/3/2 on your elementalist because its a useless build. Its still part of the variety.

I rather have less useless builds variety and more useful build variety than vice versa.

My opinion as well. For all the complaining about less diversity, the thing is most of that diversity of pointless non-viable builds. People really love ideas more than practicalities it seems

Nike.2631:

Now those 27 can all be good/fun/double-plus-positive/whatever, but “Diverse” they are not.

So? Diversity for no reason other than to have diversity is silly. Show me how this will practically impact players.

Sauncho.8076:

this new system will absolutely kill the perception of diversity. You can’t dispute math.

People love their ideas. Throughout history men have fought and died for little more than an idea. As a pragmatist I am deeply disturbed by this fact.

Nike.2631:

Teon.5168:

I am excited, too, about the new specialization system that is incoming. It will allow for more unique characters, imo.

Why do people keep saying that??!?

‘Unique’ is the one thing we absolutely know the changes are going to stamp out.

If you have a line, you have it at 6. No options. No variations. You have exactly 1 adept, 1 master, and 1 grand master trait. Without fail or exception. 27 choices. Ever.

If by “unique” you mean using traits that are completely useless then you are right. But by limiting worthless choices and making more builds viable it will improve variety, not reduce it.

As an example:

Current Staff Elementalist dps build:

6/2/2/2/2, getting all damage modifers and in general doing only damage.
V/VII/XI, VI, VI, VI, V total damage modifiers: 40%

With the new trait system I can get
6/6/6/0/0, get more survivability (GM Earth traits for “free” without affecting your DPS), have the same damage modifiers. It’s 40% with Enduring Damage over Vital Striking

So I will be losing Blasting Staff but gain access to many new abilities, will apply more vulnerability, get Access to GM Air trait, for example Tempest Defense for an extra damage modifier with a Frost Bow while I can choose between Diamond Skin and Stone Heart, based on the encounter for extra defense. All while keeping the same, if not MORE DPS than the old build. It’s a boost (can be a big one too) for a Staff Elementalist

I’m sure if you try you can modify any build to be better with the new system.

With some previous traits being merged as one, this should help alleviate the need to use Master Traits in Grandmaster slots anyways. I’ll reserve further judgement until we actually see the planned changes.

CureForLiving.5360:

My opinion as well. For all the complaining about less diversity, the thing is most of that diversity of pointless non-viable builds. People really love ideas more than practicalities it seems

People who love ideas generally do the discovering for the people who assume there’s no reason to explore.

So? Diversity for no reason other than to have diversity is silly. Show me how this will practically impact players.

Show me how many meta builds were discovered launch day. Some things are obvious. Other combinations — while amazingly powerful in practice — are not…

I have 2 eles,

1 running 0/2/0/6/6 support on zealots armor (will get huge buff I guess)
1 running 6/2/2/2/2 DPS on zerk armor. (will be 6/6/0/0/6 most likely losing 20% dmg due to trait loss, I doubt they’ll just buff all ele skills 20%

Both builds have same power from trinkets, weapons and armor but in effect the DPS build gets +40% dmg, and 300 power for free. we will lose this imbalance, problem is due to thei NERF to the DPS side ele will no longer be meta, it will not even be viable with a 30% total dmg reduction. I know what normal zealot DPS is like and it is pitifull compared to the DPS build, gaining the stats back will compensate for the 300 armor but it will still lose out on quite some bonus damage…. Ferocity is very much the gamebreaker here not the traits.

I DO HOWEVER ENDORSE THE REMOVAL OF STATS FROM THE TRAIT LINES.

For the water build, I really hope: It will scale with power from now on. doing 3500 dmg with skill 1 in fire makes doing 350 damage on #1 in water kind of useless… even if it would be able to do 1500-1750 dmg it would be ok, but as it scales now it’s a JOKE.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

I have 2 eles,

1 running 0/2/0/6/6 support on zealots armor (will get huge buff I guess)
1 running 6/2/2/2/2 DPS on zerk armor. (will be 6/6/0/0/6 most likely losing 20% dmg due to trait loss, I doubt they’ll just buff all ele skills 20%

Both builds have same power from trinkets, weapons and armor but in effect the DPS build gets +40% dmg, and 300 power for free. we will lose this imbalance, problem is due to thei NERF to the DPS side ele will no longer be meta, it will not even be viable with a 30% total dmg reduction. I know what normal zealot DPS is like and it is pitifull compared to the DPS build, gaining the stats back will compensate for the 300 armor but it will still lose out on quite some bonus damage…. Ferocity is very much the gamebreaker here not the traits.

I DO HOWEVER ENDORSE THE REMOVAL OF STATS FROM THE TRAIT LINES.

For the water build, I really hope: It will scale with power from now on. doing 3500 dmg with skill 1 in fire makes doing 350 damage on #1 in water kind of useless… even if it would be able to do 1500-1750 dmg it would be ok, but as it scales now it’s a JOKE.

As I said the 6/2/2/2/2 build can be tweaked to a 6/6/6/0/0 build with MORE DAMAGE, more SUPPORT and more survivability. And way more choices too, since you will have master and GM Earth traits to choose from without affecting your DPS. It’s SAME DPS with more options, more variety to choose from.

Nike.2631:

CureForLiving.5360:

My opinion as well. For all the complaining about less diversity, the thing is most of that diversity of pointless non-viable builds. People really love ideas more than practicalities it seems

People who love ideas generally do the discovering for the people who assume there’s no reason to explore.

So? Diversity for no reason other than to have diversity is silly. Show me how this will practically impact players.

Show me how many meta builds were discovered launch day. Some things are obvious. Other combinations — while amazingly powerful in practice — are not…

I feel you are overestimating the impact of discovery. Yes, it can have a personal impact, and the feeling of making something work or finding a hidden synergy can be rewarding.

However, whether the dust settles in a week or a year, it’s unavoidable that most of what any system has to offer will be discovered. What matters after that is what we are left with.

Path of Exile, for example, has one of the most complex systems to date. Everyone still heavily gravitated towards certain specs after a short amount of time, and even if there’s still some room left for discovery today, builds tend to follow certain core cookie-cutter strategies.

Unfortunately Duke, you’re never going to be able to convince people in this stinkhole that the sky is not, in fact, falling. Very regrettable really, since you make a lot of very good points.

I really don’t understand why even folks who’re normally level-headed and forward-thinking like Nike are so opposed to this system. C’mon, guys – we already have only two or three actually-useful traits in any given tier of any given traitline as it stands, with very few exceptions. I don’t think there’s a single traitline in the entire game in which all six Adept or Master-level traits in it are useful to different builds which are themselves useful. The whole “We have eighteen million combinations now and we’ll be losing all but a couple hundred-odd of them!” argument is such incredible horse hooey it’s insulting.

We don’t have any build diversity now. The trait system, as it currently exists, is broken, boring, and does not enable interesting builds in all but a slim handful of cases. Sure, every now and then ArenaNet slips up and introduces something you can actually hang a build on, but for the most part? All anyone ever does is calculate which set of traits gains a player the greatest total +X% of damage and then runs that. Nothing but +% modifiers, which are mechanically uninteresting. You don’t alter your game plan for a +5% damage boost, or a 20% cooldown reduction. You don’t put together intriguing new combinations based on percentage boosts. All you do is slap Berserker armor on something with as many percentage boosts as you can and then call it a build, while at the same time shrieking that anyone who tries to actually come up with something interesting and different is RUINING YOUR OPTIMIZATION FOREVER.

The damage boosts will still be there in the new system. You can still pick the three trees which give you the greatest +X% damage boost, slap it in Berserker armor, and call it the one and only viable build in the game. Yes – raw-damage builds are going to (potentially) get less raw damage. That may not even be the case, we’d actually have to see more than a brief written description of the Water Magic line, which is one of the worst lines for raw-damage builds so of course it looks bad to Zerkheads, to determine whether you can or can’t run raw-damage-nothing-else builds anymore.

Everything-else builds are getting more everything else. Damage builds are going to get the chance to take some everything-else, and maybe figure out something new and fun to do now that they can’t sacrifice absolutely everything for a +X% anymore. And frankly, the damage builds are going to be able to get more raw numerical power out of the fact that they no longer end up ‘wasting’ stat points on traitlines that have anything other than Berserker stats, so they shouldn’t need as many +X% modifiers as they did before.

You can either believe the sky is falling, ArenaNet is the Devil, everything’s RUINED FOREVER and GW2 is going to be absolutely unplayable when Heart of Thorns releases…or you can hope that a team whose greatest strength is arguably their ability to learn from mistakes has learned from the horrible mess that was the NPE, learned from the fact that nobody uses Antitoxin Spray anymore if they ever did, learned that nobody takes traits which require you to be on fire for them to activate, and see if they can make a better system.

Me? I’m with the Duke. The elite spec system is a very elegant solution to the problem of specialization classes being more useful than their base counterparts, the system is much more easily scalable for the future than our current sticky mess, and merging/excising the chaff traits which aren’t anything more than bad-build traps means we’ll get a much higher percentage of Good Stuff.

Because a specialization line with nine useful and interesting trait selections in it would sure as shootin’ beat the Berserker’s Pants of the Scholar off of a trait line with five useful and interesting traits in it and eight “Uhhh…why is this even here?” options, and we can all agree on that.

maddoctor.2738:

So I will be losing Blasting Staff but gain access to many new abilities, will apply more vulnerability, get Access to GM Air trait, for example Tempest Defense for an extra damage modifier with a Frost Bow while I can choose between Diamond Skin and Stone Heart, based on the encounter for extra defense. All while keeping the same, if not MORE DPS than the old build. It’s a boost (can be a big one too) for a Staff Elementalist

I’m sure if you try you can modify any build to be better with the new system.

Whats even nicer about the current system is that you’ll still have blasting staff, it seems like a good candidate for becoming baseline. Guess we’ll see in 3 hours when the AMA starts.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

I really don’t understand why even folks who’re normally level-headed and forward-thinking like Nike are so opposed to this system.

This particular Nike was the one suggesting crafting in fractals. Not sure that description really ever fit him. :>

Devil, the complaining comes from the fact that ANet is changing things after the player base got comfortable with the cookie cutter builds as they are. I’ve seen this enough times in enough MMOs to know that once they play the game and get used to the new system, they will wonder why ANet didn’t do this sooner.

The current system is broken, and the changes fix the worst problems of it. Will there be problems with the new one? Certainly, if only because of the growing pains involved, or that fixing the problems exposes other issues that weren’t really noticed.

Um . . . not to throw cold water on a rah, rah, rah thread, but wouldn’t it make more sense to see this in practice before we say it’s the best thing since sliced bread?

Not saying the current system is heaven, but I think it would behoove us all to at least wait before we put all our eggs in one basket . . . as it were.

That’s pretty much the exact stance I’ve been taking, JG. My thought isn’t “what is this going to do to my PRECIOUS BUILDS when HoT releases?!” but rather “How’s this going to look a year after HoT releases, when the growing pains and gear flips are done?”

The answer is “Better than the current system in a number of key ways”. The existing traits system can’t accept any new Adept or master traits – the specialization system can. The current system doesn’t handle new traitline additions well at all, given the close tie-in to character stats. The specializations system can bolt on new spec lines, both core and elite, kinda whenever it bloody well pleases. Drastically more scalable, and with a smaller number of overall traits, hopefully ArenaNet can jump on fixing up bad ones a lot quicker. They’ve specifically stated in interviews that they fully understand the need for the options they do offer in this streamlined system to be worth taking. They can’t get away with drek traits in the specialization system as given and they know it, so we can hopefully look forward to more active and timely trait rebalancing if something turns out to suck.

And besides, honestly? This seems like it’ll just be more fun outright.

Wolfe: Given that pretty much every other thread on specializations currently in this forum consists of a bunch of people shrieking “OMG DIS SUX ROX!!1!” at the tippiest-top of their tippy-top lungs, let us have on thread in which people who can see past the end of their own noses long enough to not lose their minds can discuss the new system with something resembling positivity and hopefulness, eh? :P

maddoctor.2738:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

I have 2 eles,

1 running 0/2/0/6/6 support on zealots armor (will get huge buff I guess)
1 running 6/2/2/2/2 DPS on zerk armor. (will be 6/6/0/0/6 most likely losing 20% dmg due to trait loss, I doubt they’ll just buff all ele skills 20%

Both builds have same power from trinkets, weapons and armor but in effect the DPS build gets +40% dmg, and 300 power for free. we will lose this imbalance, problem is due to thei NERF to the DPS side ele will no longer be meta, it will not even be viable with a 30% total dmg reduction. I know what normal zealot DPS is like and it is pitifull compared to the DPS build, gaining the stats back will compensate for the 300 armor but it will still lose out on quite some bonus damage…. Ferocity is very much the gamebreaker here not the traits.

I DO HOWEVER ENDORSE THE REMOVAL OF STATS FROM THE TRAIT LINES.

For the water build, I really hope: It will scale with power from now on. doing 3500 dmg with skill 1 in fire makes doing 350 damage on #1 in water kind of useless… even if it would be able to do 1500-1750 dmg it would be ok, but as it scales now it’s a JOKE.

As I said the 6/2/2/2/2 build can be tweaked to a 6/6/6/0/0 build with MORE DAMAGE, more SUPPORT and more survivability. And way more choices too, since you will have master and GM Earth traits to choose from without affecting your DPS. It’s SAME DPS with more options, more variety to choose from.

With more damage? and support? and more survivability?
Damage will come from GEAR now, pricision will come from GEAR now, support are water and earth and survuivability? When I had zerk any survivability came from earth and water, both 100 points, which will be replaced by 74 points and I lose at least 10% modifier in a trait line… this serves me not, less armor, less HP, and I lose my modifier on at least 1 trait line… and If I want to run celestial , where do I leave my traits… the minor traits are important… oh…and blasting staff?

I like the changes. Just sayin’

Pax, who’s to say that blasting staff won’t get the same treatment as necro’s wells, and just be integrated in naturally?

Really no use getting overly passionate when we don’t even know the details yet.

Personally I’m not a big fan of the removal of stat changes from trait lines. This would be a very good idea if you could make any stat combination you want for your character using armor/trinkets, however this is not the case at all. So I just hope they add more stat combinations with HoT. (like condi dmg/power/toughness or vitality/power/precision) The current trait system allows some compensation for these missing stat combo’s, and with specialisation this will be lost.
This is however a problem created by missing stat combo’s and not really the removal of trait linked stats. so if they fix that problem they can remove those all they want.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Wolfe: Given that pretty much every other thread on specializations currently in this forum consists of a bunch of people shrieking “OMG DIS SUX ROX!!1!” at the tippiest-top of their tippy-top lungs, let us have on thread in which people who can see past the end of their own noses long enough to not lose their minds can discuss the new system with something resembling positivity and hopefulness, eh? :P

Oh . . . I suppose.

Sauncho.8076:

This new change to the trait trees are exactly how WOW runs there tree now, and seems to be the trend in most MMOs. The thing I liked most about GW2 when it first came out was shear number of available points I had to use in the trait trees as opposed to what WOW changed to after Cataclysm. Then of course GW2 reduced the number of points allocated for traits last year, and now it looks like they are going to completely streamline it (noobify it) in HoT.

I mean I get, it has to be a lot easier to balance with this new approach, but I still don’t like it.

I think you’re forgetting the part where WoW only has the equivalent of one specialization active at a time.

I don’t really understand the thing about them reducing the amount of trait points. It’s just simplification, not removing depth in any way.

9 major traits < 13 major traits.
Ability to choose from 3 lines < ability to choose from any line.
Ability to choose part of a line < ability to take all or nothing.

Math says hi. Freedom of choice getting butchered. It’s not a downgrade it’s a “feature”.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Math says hi.

Math is quantitative, not qualitative. So much QQ over details not yet reveals. It’s kinda sad.

I, for one, welcome our new Specialization overlords.

Better options – maybe, we’ve yet to see.
Less options – 100% fact.

I’m a quantitive guy:>

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Better options – maybe, we’ve yet to see.
Less options – 100% fact.

I’m a quantitive guy:>

Well, yes, we are, statistically, getting fewer permutations. (I refuse to call them “options” based on how they’re used now.) :P And 390k combinations per class is still plenty to explore.

It does kinda suck that we’re losing lower trait selections in higher slots, but before panic, let’s see what they do with the trait combinations.

If they can have me debating between even just 2 out of the 3 options per trait choice, that’s leaps and bounds better than it is currently where it’s pretty clear that A>B&C in most situations.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

I really don’t understand why even folks who’re normally level-headed and forward-thinking like Nike are so opposed to this system.

Being concerned about the annihilation of choice is quite separate from my hope that there are more competitively valuable traits. Even the Devs in interviews have acknowledged that fewer choices means they have less room for error. And while I respect their accomplishments, fact is their track record for balancing traits is not great and they are giving us very little room to dodge the bad ones that will work their way into the roster.

spoj.9672:

This particular Nike was the one suggesting crafting in fractals. Not sure that description really ever fit him. :>

D’aawww. You remembered. You might also remember that the Elite specializations we’re seeing now are pretty much exactly how I suggested sub-classes be done (swap-in Trait Line), up to and including a weapons skin being part of the package. You may not like how I design, but the people whose opinion matters do pay some attention when I’m pitching ideas .

I’m watching the livestream…

I am wondering, I’m still really happy with the attribute points removed from trait lines, though it causes some tweaking problems..
I am really wondering what will happen with the proffesions trait sets. Missed some things though, being a dad causes some child lag now and then…

Nike.2631:

Teon.5168:

I am excited, too, about the new specialization system that is incoming. It will allow for more unique characters, imo.

Why do people keep saying that??!?

‘Unique’ is the one thing we absolutely know the changes are going to stamp out.

If you have a line, you have it at 6. No options. No variations. You have exactly 1 adept, 1 master, and 1 grand master trait. Without fail or exception. 27 choices. Ever.

I agree, we do loose choice but I’m willing to lose choice in traits if I gain choice in optimal builds. I would like to be able to say “I have 2-3 builds that are good with my weapon” instead of saying “I use this weapon, so my optimal build is THIS”.