Guild Wars 2

Hate.

Let me tell you how much I’ve come to hate the Tangled Depths, since I began to venture there a year ago.

There are approximately 10 trillion cells residing within me, used as the building blocks for my human body. If the word ‘hate’ was engraved on each and every one of those hundreds of millions of building blocks, it would not equal one one-billionth of the hate I feel for the Tangled Depths at this micro-instant.

For the Tangled Depths… Hate… Hate…!

What do you hate about it?

… Absolutely – All of it.

That’s nice.

I think it’s a great map. It was challenging to explore, even frustrating at times. But learning my way around Tangled Depths has been a unique experience. Verdant Brink, also.

There are, of course, some things I don’t like, but I think you have the hate covered pretty well on your own! For me, GW2 just isn’t appealing without HoT, and A-Net has just been crushing it with maps like TD, VB, and BF.

Oh yeah, Verdant Brink, Auric Basin, even Dragons Stand. I like all of those… HoT is great in that respect.

But Tangled Depths… I can only channel so much… Hate…

The problem I see with this post is that it doesn’t address any specific issue(s). While it’s probably true that you hate tangled depths, the lack of detail and the reasons make this post unhelpful. It’s not good feedback. It’s barely feedback at all.

It doesn’t invite discussion. It doesn’t try to solve anything. So without more detail, there’s no real reason for anyone to participate in this “discussion”.

If I were to guess he probably hates navigating it, once you get the Wallows traversing it is pretty straight forward.

The jungle cares not for your hate. It will continue to be difficult to navigate, it will continue to be dangerous, as it should be.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

If I were to guess he probably hates navigating it, once you get the Wallows traversing it is pretty straight forward.

Yeah with Nuhoch Wallows and after you find the Teku Nuhoch waypoint it’s very easy to navigate.

Going around this map for the first time was the only moment i felt i was truly exploring in this game…. Its a real shame that it gets so much hate, people only seem to want boring flat landscape maps where its immediately obvious where things are. I dont know about you guys but i cant stand vanilla maps for this exact reason.

Well, the OP likes all of the other HoT maps, so it must come down to the convoluted layout. This is not a permanent problem. It just depends on whether or not it’s worth it to you to learn. But here’s a quick explanation of how to unravel this map in case you’d like to try…

First, note the wallows on the map. They make it MUCH easier to get around and, unlike waypoints, wallows never become contested. Your first move should be to locate the wallow south of Order of Whispers waypoint. Don’t worry! You can walk right over to it, no navigation required!

This wallow leads to the undergrowth connector. Follow the path upward and you will find another wallow very close by that will take you to Teku Nuhoch waypoint.

TN waypoint has 3 wallows next to it. Take the wallow to Leyline Confluence and take the path downward. Cross Rata Novus lane and continue east where you will run straight into Rata Novus waypoint.

Head back to Rata Novus lane and follow it south, where it opens into a huge cavern with a waypoint in the center.

From here you can follow either of the eastern tunnels to reach SCAR waypoint, although the northernmost tunnel requires wallows to reach it.

Alternatively, take the western tunnel (ogre lane). Where the tunnel branches north you’ll see a wallow to ogre camp and the associated waypoint.

Return to ogre lane and continue west. You’ll hit Dragon’s Passage waypoint.

And now you have all of the waypoints.

Of course, that isn’t all there is to TD, but knowing how to easily reach the waypoints creates the framework you’ll build upon to understand this map. Many of the objectives (HPs, MPs, POIs, vistas) are hidden in areas that aren’t clearly marked with paths on the map. But as you discover them you should begin to add them in to what you already understand about the layout.

Eventually, it all comes together and makes sense. And when it does you realize there are many different ways to get around and between waypoints on this map. It’s really rather convenient once you get it.

In Frost Gorge Sound there’s an area along the east side of the map. Years ago, when I first navigated it, I dubbed this area the Crevasse of Death, because once you were in, there seemed to be no exit out of the crevasse, a series of dead ends and Ice Elementals chasing you and throwing stuff at you til you died in a corner, cold and alone. Ever since then, when I’ve explore that area, I’ve climbed along the top of the glacier to reach the NE corner of FGS, NEVER venturing into the Crevasse of Death itself, because after all only death and dead ends reside there.

Tangled Deaths, forgive me, Depths…is a giant Crevasse of Death, only there is no way to quietly skip along the top to reach the other side. Because the map utilizes all 4 levels, it makes it very difficult to determine exactly where you’ve come from or where you’re headed to. This can be confusing and perhaps enraging for first time explorers, or even explorers that have successfully made their way through TD to DS.

Luckily, Anet provided (through masteries) a rather quick way from the beginning of this map to the entrance to DS. With Updrafts and Wallows, you can get there in about 5-7 mins. BUT, even the possibility of a shortcut will not appease those explorers that are forever trumatized by this map.

HazyDaisy.4107:

In Frost Gorge Sound there’s an area along the east side of the map. Years ago, when I first navigated it, I dubbed this area the Crevasse of Death, because once you were in, there seemed to be no exit out of the crevasse, a series of dead ends and Ice Elementals chasing you and throwing stuff at you til you died in a corner, cold and alone. Ever since then, when I’ve explore that area, I’ve climbed along the top of the glacier to reach the NE corner of FGS, NEVER venturing into the Crevasse of Death itself, because after all only death and dead ends reside there.

Tangled Deaths, forgive me, Depths…is a giant Crevasse of Death, only there is no way to quietly skip along the top to reach the other side. Because the map utilizes all 4 levels, it makes it very difficult to determine exactly where you’ve come from or where you’re headed to. This can be confusing and perhaps enraging for first time explorers, or even explorers that have successfully made their way through TD to DS.

Luckily, Anet provided (through masteries) a rather quick way from the beginning of this map to the entrance to DS. With Updrafts and Wallows, you can get there in about 5-7 mins. BUT, even the possibility of a shortcut will not appease those explorers that are forever trumatized by this map.

I know more than a few explorers who are really happy with this map though. Explorers of empty areas with pushover foes is all very nice, but can you really call yourself an explorer if you’re just walking around with no danger at all?

Explorers bring to mind the Europeans who braved the congo, and faced all manner of terrifying beasts in order to explore a new area.

I’m pretty sure none of them walked through central park, mapped it and write articles about it for national geographic.

That “Crevasse of Death” is pretty easy to fight through. Tangled Depths, you can get from one end to the other with barely aggroing anything if you know how. If you’re on a US server I’d be happy to show you.

Tangled Depths, particularly once you have nuhoch wallows unlocked, isn’t hard to navigate at all. But even if you don’t have them, it’s quite easy to get through the zone. In fact, I can take a new character in there, with wallows, and get every single waypoint unlocked easily in under 15 minutes.

Yeah…I’ve explored TD 10 times on 1 account and 3 times on another, it’s safe to say I have it covered.

My response was not a plea for help or a strike at the map itself, it was aimed at the OP that says he hates this map. It doesn’t matter if there’s an easy way to navigate or complete the map, if some players don’t like the map, they will most likely never like the map, and that’s ok.

I wouldn’t mind it so much if ANet could make a decently readable minimap. :\
Or give us custom map marker tools~

As it is, it’s a terrible experience with only one saving grace: None of the exploration is gated by meta-events, if I recall right. Verdant Brink has the obnoxious difficulty of getting topside for hero points until nightfall (possible, but highly irritating), and Auric Basin actively shuts out pillars until the meta opens them. And the 3 hero commune points, etc for Mordy. But Tangled Depths is at least always available.

Shame it’s such a mess. Of all the maps that exemplify Heart of Thorns’ major issue of “You can’t there from here,” Tangled Depths is by far the biggest offender.

AliamRationem.5172:

Of course, that isn’t all there is to TD, but knowing how to easily reach the waypoints creates the framework you’ll build upon to understand this map. Many of the objectives (HPs, MPs, POIs, vistas) are hidden in areas that aren’t clearly marked with paths on the map. But as you discover them you should begin to add them in to what you already understand about the layout.

Eventually, it all comes together and makes sense. And when it does you realize there are many different ways to get around and between waypoints on this map. It’s really rather convenient once you get it.

I have all the WP and know about the Wallows. I know how to get to the main areas like the Scar lane. Its the hidden areas that I continue to have trouble with. The areas you really only need to get to one time for a MP or whatever that are very frustrating to get to. I end up using guides and even then struggling.

Some people are very good at directions, at knowing where they are and where they need to go and how to get there. Or they are good at figuring it out.

I am directionally-challenged in RL so TD is a nightmare.

Rauderi.8706:

I wouldn’t mind it so much if ANet could make a decently readable minimap. :\
Or give us custom map marker tools~

As it is, it’s a terrible experience with only one saving grace: None of the exploration is gated by meta-events, if I recall right. Verdant Brink has the obnoxious difficulty of getting topside for hero points until nightfall (possible, but highly irritating), and Auric Basin actively shuts out pillars until the meta opens them. And the 3 hero commune points, etc for Mordy. But Tangled Depths is at least always available.

Shame it’s such a mess. Of all the maps that exemplify Heart of Thorns’ major issue of “You can’t there from here,” Tangled Depths is by far the biggest offender.

This is a suggestion I can get behind. I love TD (as you know!), and while the map system in this game is much better than I was used to in WoW, it is inadequate to the complexity of design we see in HoT. I think there is much they could do to make these maps easier to navigate without reverting to the 50th iteration of Queensdale.

Someone in another thread on the same subject mentioned that you have to “brute force” these maps. That’s true, in a sense. Once you understand the map, a lot of the roads marked on the map make more sense. But initially, you have no idea whether the road you’re taking is really going to take you where you think it will or just to another layer of the map where you didn’t intend to go. That’s frustrating, even for many of us who enjoyed the overall experience of exploring TD. Why even have a map, right?

I hope they can figure something out because I definitely want to see improved maps, more maps like TD, and more players successfully learning them without giving up in frustration!

Hate is such a strong word. Don’t let a map in a game stress you to the point it becomes unhealthy. Not worth it.

D:

But, I love Tangled Depths!

Razor.9872:

D:

But, I love Tangled Depths!

You and the OP better never meet, otherwise Tyria might end! O.O

~EW

It is a good map. It trains your spatial thinking abilities

I’m with ya. I absolutely despise TD. I love the rest of HoT, but TD just makes me want to bash my face into the computer monitor.

The reason TD sucks is because:
1. There are no players there. Ever.
2. The map is confusing as crap. More so than the other HoT maps.
3. Events are nearly impossible to complete due to low player population.

Galtrix.7369:

I’m with ya. I absolutely despise TD. I love the rest of HoT, but TD just makes me want to bash my face into the computer monitor.

The reason TD sucks is because:
1. There are no players there. Ever.
2. The map is confusing as crap. More so than the other HoT maps.
3. Events are nearly impossible to complete due to low player population.

1. There are players there, because the meta gets done. So I don’t know how you can say this. Of course, if you belonged to an active guild that did that sort of content, you’d bring players with you when you went. 2-3 people can do about 90% of that zone without any issues at all.

2. The maps are only confusing if you don’t “get them”. I could show someone how to understand the map in a very short amount of time and have done so repeatedly.

3. I’ve completed everyone event in that zone multiple times. I STILL complete most events in that zone. Again, you need a tiny handful of people to do 90% of them.

By the way seems like your #1 and #3 complaint are pretty much the same complaint so I don’t know why they need seperate numbers.

I’m almost 100% positive you think you need more people to complete content in that zone than you do.

I tried to set fire to TD so I could watch it burn and dance in the embers but it was too damp to take the flame. Pity.

I just wanted to report I spent a few hours in TD this morning, ran the entire event cycle uninterrupted in SCAR camp with plenty of other players around, scored t5 on the chak gerent in back to back cycles, had time to farm all of the chak caches in every lane after the event cycles were completed, and also found time to help a few players with HPs and even helped out with the chak master killer achievement. Seems pretty active to me!

You guys hate it. Not everyone does. I hope they still find time to produce maps like this in the future. But I don’t need them all to be that way! Compromise!

AliamRationem.5172:

You guys hate it. Not everyone does. I hope they still find time to produce maps like this in the future. But I don’t need them all to be that way! Compromise!

I was there by obligation only. You cruised with a lot of sad, frustrated players. :P

Still, I do appreciate what TD wanted to do with its design. I don’t want a map “like” Tangled Depths, necessarily, but I do want one that uses the multilevel terrain in a full way. None of the other HoT maps are quite like it, even Verdant Brink. VB’s under layer isn’t very expansive, and the canopy is mostly closed off with little islands in between. Auric Basin is mostly (blessedly) flat. Dragon Stand has little hideyholes in a few spots, but they’re not the same as the twisting, connected network that Tangled Depths is. So I can, to an extent, respect it.

But I still want my custom map markers. Even for vanilla Tyria, the minimap isn’t all that great, and a good overhead view is critical in planning/navigating something as complex as Tangled Depths.

Rauderi.8706:

AliamRationem.5172:

You guys hate it. Not everyone does. I hope they still find time to produce maps like this in the future. But I don’t need them all to be that way! Compromise!

I was there by obligation only. You cruised with a lot of sad, frustrated players. :P

Still, I do appreciate what TD wanted to do with its design. I don’t want a map “like” Tangled Depths, necessarily, but I do want one that uses the multilevel terrain in a full way. None of the other HoT maps are quite like it, even Verdant Brink. VB’s under layer isn’t very expansive, and the canopy is mostly closed off with little islands in between. Auric Basin is mostly (blessedly) flat. Dragon Stand has little hideyholes in a few spots, but they’re not the same as the twisting, connected network that Tangled Depths is. So I can, to an extent, respect it.

But I still want my custom map markers. Even for vanilla Tyria, the minimap isn’t all that great, and a good overhead view is critical in planning/navigating something as complex as Tangled Depths.

I’m sold on custom map markers and perhaps even a general overhaul of the map system. It’s good, but there are so many ways it could be better for HoT maps.

A map system like the one in the latest Doom game would solve all problems with navigation. It’s an actual 3D map that clearly shows everything above and below

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

I’m with ya. I absolutely despise TD. I love the rest of HoT, but TD just makes me want to bash my face into the computer monitor.

The reason TD sucks is because:
1. There are no players there. Ever.
2. The map is confusing as crap. More so than the other HoT maps.
3. Events are nearly impossible to complete due to low player population.

1. There are players there, because the meta gets done. So I don’t know how you can say this. Of course, if you belonged to an active guild that did that sort of content, you’d bring players with you when you went. 2-3 people can do about 90% of that zone without any issues at all.

2. The maps are only confusing if you don’t “get them”. I could show someone how to understand the map in a very short amount of time and have done so repeatedly.

3. I’ve completed everyone event in that zone multiple times. I STILL complete most events in that zone. Again, you need a tiny handful of people to do 90% of them.

By the way seems like your #1 and #3 complaint are pretty much the same complaint so I don’t know why they need seperate numbers.

I’m almost 100% positive you think you need more people to complete content in that zone than you do.

Of course, we’re both speaking from experience here. I play during the day on weekdays, so I guess everyone’s at work or at school? I see maybe 8 people in TD on a good day. I know the events can be completed. It’s just a matter of how long it takes to complete them with a party of two that kills me. I teamed up with another chronomancer, and our survivability was legendary, but it took ages to kill anything or do a single event. We wandered around TD for 4 1/2 hours and saw 6 people the entire time.

I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience, but I sometimes look at something, like quantum physic equations, and think to myself, “Nope!”. TD is the equivalent of quantum physic equations for me. The other HoT maps are like trigonometry and calculus – I understand them just fine and enjoy them.

Vayne.8563:

I’m almost 100% positive you think you need more people to complete content in that zone than you do.

Unfortunately, that seems to be a common belief, hence people using taxis to stack (a) (some) map(s), which leaves other maps relatively empty.

Galtrix.7369:

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

I’m with ya. I absolutely despise TD. I love the rest of HoT, but TD just makes me want to bash my face into the computer monitor.

The reason TD sucks is because:
1. There are no players there. Ever.
2. The map is confusing as crap. More so than the other HoT maps.
3. Events are nearly impossible to complete due to low player population.

1. There are players there, because the meta gets done. So I don’t know how you can say this. Of course, if you belonged to an active guild that did that sort of content, you’d bring players with you when you went. 2-3 people can do about 90% of that zone without any issues at all.

2. The maps are only confusing if you don’t “get them”. I could show someone how to understand the map in a very short amount of time and have done so repeatedly.

3. I’ve completed everyone event in that zone multiple times. I STILL complete most events in that zone. Again, you need a tiny handful of people to do 90% of them.

By the way seems like your #1 and #3 complaint are pretty much the same complaint so I don’t know why they need seperate numbers.

I’m almost 100% positive you think you need more people to complete content in that zone than you do.

Of course, we’re both speaking from experience here. I play during the day on weekdays, so I guess everyone’s at work or at school? I see maybe 8 people in TD on a good day. I know the events can be completed. It’s just a matter of how long it takes to complete them with a party of two that kills me. I teamed up with another chronomancer, and our survivability was legendary, but it took ages to kill anything or do a single event. We wandered around TD for 4 1/2 hours and saw 6 people the entire time.

I don’t know if you’ve ever had this experience, but I sometimes look at something, like quantum physic equations, and think to myself, “Nope!”. TD is the equivalent of quantum physic equations for me. The other HoT maps are like trigonometry and calculus – I understand them just fine and enjoy them.

Except for the gerent and the young mushroom HP everything else should be relatively easy with 2 people. I’ve been around TD on a hammer guardian wearing cleric’s gear. Can’t be any slower than that …

I hated TD too, when I first got to it.

Then one day I accompanied a commander on a map completion train through the map. That really opened my eyes to just how intricate and enormous this map is, from the canopy level down to the subterranean waterways. It has a huge variety of biomes too, from the claustrophobic Chak tunnels to Rata Novan architecture. So many secrets and ways to traverse the map.

I was left in awe of the map, and I actually regret not learning how to complete the map myself. It’s one of the very best maps Anet has made IMO, and the fact that it doesn’t lend itself easily to quick exploration makes it better.

AliamRationem.5172:

Well, the OP likes all of the other HoT maps, so it must come down to the convoluted layout. This is not a permanent problem. It just depends on whether or not it’s worth it to you to learn. But here’s a quick explanation of how to unravel this map in case you’d like to try…

First, note the wallows on the map. They make it MUCH easier to get around and, unlike waypoints, wallows never become contested. Your first move should be to locate the wallow south of Order of Whispers waypoint. Don’t worry! You can walk right over to it, no navigation required!

This wallow leads to the undergrowth connector. Follow the path upward and you will find another wallow very close by that will take you to Teku Nuhoch waypoint.

TN waypoint has 3 wallows next to it. Take the wallow to Leyline Confluence and take the path downward. Cross Rata Novus lane and continue east where you will run straight into Rata Novus waypoint.

Head back to Rata Novus lane and follow it south, where it opens into a huge cavern with a waypoint in the center.

From here you can follow either of the eastern tunnels to reach SCAR waypoint, although the northernmost tunnel requires wallows to reach it.

Alternatively, take the western tunnel (ogre lane). Where the tunnel branches north you’ll see a wallow to ogre camp and the associated waypoint.

Return to ogre lane and continue west. You’ll hit Dragon’s Passage waypoint.

And now you have all of the waypoints.

Of course, that isn’t all there is to TD, but knowing how to easily reach the waypoints creates the framework you’ll build upon to understand this map. Many of the objectives (HPs, MPs, POIs, vistas) are hidden in areas that aren’t clearly marked with paths on the map. But as you discover them you should begin to add them in to what you already understand about the layout.

Eventually, it all comes together and makes sense. And when it does you realize there are many different ways to get around and between waypoints on this map. It’s really rather convenient once you get it.

Bookmarked

Oh god. Did nobody got the reference? Like, nobody at all?

…

This is depressing.

Wintermute.5408:

Oh god. Did nobody got the reference? Like, nobody at all?

…

This is depressing.

I know, right?

The only problem with TD I have is how utterly inefective 2D map is in there.

Wintermute.5408:

Oh god. Did nobody got the reference? Like, nobody at all?

…

This is depressing.

Explain it so my bookah brain can understand.