Guild Wars 2

I really hope we get to meet Razah again! And I think it would tie in well with the Revenant. What does everyone else think about that? For those who don’t know about “him,” Razah was an entity formed in the mists, who’s base class was Ritualist, and was an optional hero we could obtain in GW1. I will post his description at the very bottom.

The way I see it, introducing him could actually be pretty…Revenant relevant! Not to mention it would be another awesome throwback to GW1 (a lot of the Revenant is already a throwback to GW1, and we’re getting other cool stuff like GW1 dinosaurs). Who better to teach Rytlock how to wield the mists, than a creature spawned from and of the mists itself? He would also have some ties to Ogden (for one, they are both hundreds of years old and would’ve known each other since they both traveled with us, the player character). It would be cool to get the two of them together. And Razah would prove to be a valuable ally I’m sure. I was always fascinated with him.

Just to be clear, I am NOT suggesting we be able to use him as some kind of Revenant skill. I want him to be a character we get to meet and interact with. I don’t think it would make sense to be able to channel him as a skill because well…I don’t think he’d have died between GW1 and GW2.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Razah

“The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren.

— The Guild Wars Nightfall Manuscripts"

Also, and this isn’t directly related, but I hope someday we see M.O.X. again. Maybe we help someone find all his pieces (assuming that he’s destroyed by now but who knows) and rebuild him.

+1 to meeting Razah. I’d love to learn more about him. He was an enigma in GW1 and I think having ties to the Mists would be very beneficial to reintroduce Razah. Livia would also be nice to meet, since she’s magically stayed alive for all these years.

I’d say no to M.O.X. though. Golems eventually wear out, I’m sure, and whether or not Zinn made him (I’d argue Zinn is the singlemost best golemancer that ever existed in GW lore – I mean, R./N./P./G./M.O.X. all surpass any other golem ever made), I don’t think it’d be capable for him to come back.

I don’t see why not when it comes to M.O.X. Livia lived all these years, and Ogden and many others, so why not a golem? He was probably one of the best golems ever built. And if you look at GW2 and possibly GW1, Asuran technology (and the technology of others) can last a pretty long time. In GW2 we have still functioning technology left by Gadd, Oola (actually Oola is still kind of around as a ghost according to the wiki), and let’s not forget the Iron Forgeman made an appearance in GW2 as well. And even if M.O.X. broke down, I’m sure he could be fixed.

Gandalf.3516:

I don’t see why not when it comes to M.O.X. Livia lived all these years, and Ogden and many others, so why not a golem? He was probably one of the best golems ever built. And if you look at GW2 and possibly GW1, Asuran technology (and the technology of others) can last a pretty long time. In GW2 we have still functioning technology left by Gadd, Oola (actually Oola is still kind of around as a ghost according to the wiki), and let’s not forget the Iron Forgeman made an appearance in GW2 as well. And even if M.O.X. broke down, I’m sure he could be fixed.

Good points. The transmission of Oola is less a ghost than just a “really complex AI” and the Asuran remnants from GW1 usually aren’t golems, but rather transmitters and stored data. I would be very surprised if M.O.X. was actually doing anything, but you bring up a good point about the other Asuran continuances – it’s quite possible that with the right touch (Taimi, perhaps?) you could rekindle his…“life.”

I can see the reveal for him now, too. You and DE2.0 are running for your lives in the jungle, surrounded, and all of the sudden Scruffy gets destroyed and Taimi’s about to bite the dust. Then by pure dumb luck (and scripted coincidence) you just “happen” to be near the remnants of M.O.X., Taimi recognizes the finesse of the greatest golemancer who ever lived, requisitions and boots him up and we get our prized M.O.X. back – and she gets a much better golem wheelchair.

Lol if they do ever introduce M.O.X. again, I’d hope it wouldn’t be as a replacement for Scruffy, but who knows.

taimi could alway incorporate M.O.X’s parts into Scruffy

We don’t necessarily have to choose between having M.O.X. or Scruffy…

Gandalf.3516:

We don’t necessarily have to choose between having M.O.X. or Scruffy…

Arguably because modifying Scruffy or replacing him (although modifying seems like a better idea now that shadow’s mentioned it) makes for a better story than just shoehorning M.O.X. into the game.

It doesn’t really have to be shoehorned if their writers can write…

Besides HE-ROES NEV-ER DIE, M.O.X. CAN NEV-ER BE CON-QUERED

I miss M.O.X. His valuable life lessons shall ring through the ages, whether he returns or not.

I guess in my mind, Scruffy, Mr. Sparkles, M.O.X., even though they’re golems, are in some ways alive and sentient. Using their parts to improve another golem somehow sounds morbid lol. I don’t think M.O.X. would have to take a role as central as someone like Destiny’s Edge, Destiny’s Edge 2.0 and so on. But he could have a secondary role. Perhaps could join Ogden and be an assistant of sorts. Who knows, just thought it’d be cool.

Gandalf.3516:

I guess in my mind, Scruffy, Mr. Sparkles, M.O.X., even though they’re golems, are in some ways alive and sentient. Using their parts to improve another golem somehow sounds morbid lol. I don’t think M.O.X. would have to take a role as central as someone like Destiny’s Edge, Destiny’s Edge 2.0 and so on. But he could have a secondary role. Perhaps could join Ogden and be an assistant of sorts. Who knows, just thought it’d be cool.

Idk, it just feels like if you introduce too many GW1 characters you’re just shoehorning it in. I mean…Ogden, Razah and Livia all have stories that are respectably connected with the world around us. Ogden is basically the founder of the Priory and the foremost scholar (he was even a reputable scholar in GW1, nevermind how much he’s learned since becoming stone). We know Livia is alive and is a very prominent figure among the Shining Blade and with this newfound connection to the Mists it wouldn’t be totally chaotic to herald Razah into the story.

But as far as M.O.X. – there just needs to be some reason…some connection with Zinn’s lab, some necessary reason to reanimate a golem (because I ‘m sure after all these years he has been worn down, at least somewhat), etc. There needs to be a valuable reason other than nostalgia to bring him back, which I just don’t see.

I don’t think Livia being alive is actually confirmed, it’s just that things seem to point in that direction (if it has been confirmed I never heard about it).

As we already said, just because he is added into the game doesn’t mean he will be “shoehorned in” and that it wouldn’t make any sense, IF done right. And the “he’s worn down” argument carries little weight in my mind. I won’t be broken up if we never see him again, I just think it would be cool.

An example I can think of off the top of my head (and just because I say this is an example of how he could be used, doesn’t mean it would actually work. I’m just coming up with ideas), is that as golems go, M.O.X. is pretty unique. He can actually attune himself to the human gods. How was he even able to do that? Dervishes could do it because they were humans, who worshiped the human gods and had strong connections with them. Exactly how they did it was a secret, and even if it weren’t that wouldn’t explain how M.O.X., a walking hunk of metal with no connection to the gods at all, could become their avatars. Humans might be cut off from the gods, but under M.O.X.’s circumstances who knows what he could do? With the theory going that the human gods are actually the dragons, or strongly connected to the dragons, he could maybe be used against the dragons in some interesting way, or used in something related to the ley lines.

Gandalf.3516:

I don’t think Livia being alive is actually confirmed, it’s just that things seem to point in that direction (if it has been confirmed I never heard about it).

As we already said, just because he is added into the game doesn’t mean he will be “shoehorned in” and that it wouldn’t make any sense, IF done right. And the “he’s worn down” argument carries little weight in my mind, I don’t care to go back and forth over that. I won’t be broken up if we never see him again, I just think it would be cool.

An example I can think of off the top of my head (and just because I say this is an example of how he could be used, doesn’t mean it would actually work. I’m just coming up with ideas), is that as golems go, M.O.X. is pretty unique. He can actually attune himself to the human gods. How was he even able to do that? Dervishes could do it because they were humans, who worshiped the human gods and had strong connections with them. Exactly how they did it was a secret, and even if it weren’t that wouldn’t explain how M.O.X., a walking hunk of metal with no connection to the gods at all, could become their avatars. Humans might be cut off from the gods, but under M.O.X.’s circumstances who knows what he could do? With the theory going that the human gods are actually the dragons, or strongly connected to the dragons, he could maybe be used against the dragons in some interesting way, or used in something related to the ley lines.

Livia is semi-confirmed to be alive. She was still around in the book Sea of Sorrows, which takes place 178 years after GW1. Her whereabouts have been unknown for the past 70 years though, so being dead isn’t totally off the table but to make it to the ripe old age of 200 just to keel over seems a little far fetched, even for Tyrian lore.

As far as M.O.X. connecting with avatars is concerned, it is a lore oversight. Described by Zinn himself as being “…the ultimate in magic, mechanized party protection.” Wouldn’t quite make sense to make M.O.X. a warrior, but they also didn’t make him something like a paragon who is even more connected with the human gods. The lack of a magic-wielding warrior put M.O.X. on a hotplate of choosing a fitting profession for his description – and they certainly weren’t going to make a brand new profession just for M.O.X. – the fact that dervishes just so happen to be masters of magic and power with the scythe and also direct vessels for dervish forms was something they just had to go with. It wasn’t a mystery how they did (or a secret), they channeled the Gods and became their avatar. There’s no “explanation” for that – it’s magic, unadulterated magic.

Along with this, most melee golems were dervishes by profession (probably so that they could have a cleave), there were warriors too but as I said earlier it breaks the purpose of being magical and mechanical if he’s just a warrior. That didn’t exactly make every golem in GW1 able to commune with the God. This was just a mechanical choice with a lore oversight – only reason M.O.X. got any special treatment was you were allowed to give him avatar forms as part of his build – it would have been a kittenstorm had ANet stayed true to the lore and made all dervish forms inaccessible on M.O.X. because he was a golem. Not only that, but they also made M.O.X. susceptible to fleshy conditions for the same reasons – mechanical purposes. These aren’t so much lore factors as the are conflicting mechanical designs to make the game work.

So, well, that really doesn’t have any relevance.

As far as being worn down, I’ll agree to disagree – I have no real evidence or logic to back it up other than I imagine he’s been inactive for nearly 250 years. There’s no precedent, example or any circumstance that can be quoted to prove or disprove any idea on his active history.

I am curious about this theory going around that Countess Anise is Livia being hidden from us by an illusion. Though I am not entirely certain what purpose there would be in her hiding behind an illusion (unless it’s really just to hide her identity so people don’t know she’s dabbling in some kind of possibly dark magic to stay alive for far too long), it is an interesting idea and would explain somewhat where she’s been. Also, Canach’s remarks about her age give some credit to that theory:

Canach: I have a thick skin. I also learn from my missteps. For example, you fooled me once with your illusions, so now I wonder if you’re truly as young as–
Countess Anise: Do not finish that sentence. Not here, not ever.
Canach: At least, a substantial response.
Countess Anise: Yes, well. You would be wise to remember your place and check that tongue of yours.

From the GW1 wiki about Dervish:

Among the Dervish’s most precious secrets is that of transformation. The Dervish, when roused, may channel divine powers and change their form temporarily to become the physical embodiment of a god.

That’s talking about becoming the avatars, which M.O.X. could also do. Says it’s a secret. If it weren’t a secret then why would they say it is?

And I am not saying that M.O.X. is alive or dead. I just don’t know why anyone would assume he is dead. It seems to make a lot of sense to me that something like him could very well still be alive, or be brought back to life. And he certainly wouldn’t have been dead for nearly 250 years. That’d basically mean right after GW1 was over he kicked the bucket.

Gandalf.3516:

I am curious about this theory going around that Countess Anise is Livia being hidden from us by an illusion. Though I am not entirely certain what purpose there would be in her hiding behind an illusion (unless it’s really just to hide her identity so people don’t know she’s dabbling in some kind of possibly dark magic to stay alive for far too long), it is an interesting idea and would explain somewhat where she’s been.

From the GW1 wiki about Dervish:

Among the Dervish’s most precious secrets is that of transformation. The Dervish, when roused, may channel divine powers and change their form temporarily to become the physical embodiment of a god.

That’s talking about becoming the avatars, which M.O.X. could also do. Says it’s a secret. If it weren’t a secret then why would they say it is?

Livia has more at stake in Kryta and Kryta’s well-being than Anise (if Anise is a separate person) and the Queen combined. Livia is, in such a sense, the mother of Kryta at this point. She played a pivotal role during the War in Kryta and reestablished the Krytan monarchy. If she is hiding as Anise, it’s a political move to ensure that Livia and Kryta are not connected by other members of the political circle – it would be very easy for Caudecus or the charr to discredit the Queen and her court if they ever found out Livia was acting as a primary consultant.

Regarding the dervish quote – it’s not exactly a “secret” so much as it’s a higher level of the dervish profession. Which, again, M.O.X. has to be disqualified from in a sensible conversation seeing as he was a hero. He was either going to be a dervish hero with the full kit (because they couldn’t possibly restrict the mechanics for lore purposes) or he was going to be a warrior hero (which there were already three of – but only two dervish heroes).

It’s more easily attributable to oversight than it is to anything uniquely special about M.O.X. regarding gameplay functions.

The lore behind the dervish mechanic is irrelevant, since many monsters across Tyria were also dervishes without any connection to the Old Gods whatsoever. Mandragors and random golems certainly aren’t holy warriors of the Gods – it was just fitting to give them a cleave, some chills and other relevant skills for their design.

It’s just a mechanical function (added a third dervish hero, introduced us to Zinn, didn’t totally break the theme of golems being warriors, elementalists or dervishes). I can’t stress enough that it’s just an oversight by making M.O.X. a dervish hero and, since he cannot be restricted just because of conventional lore, has some lore-breaking characteristics. It has nothing to do with M.O.X. being special and everything to do with him being introduced a year after every Nightfall and EotN hero were implemented and being limited by gameplay restrictions.

To summarize, mechanical limitations and necessities should not be valued as lore.

Is the stuff about Livia in the last GW2 book? If so I havn’t got around to reading that yet.

Also you’ve got a point there about the random monsters, I hadn’t thought about that.

Gandalf.3516:

Is the stuff about Livia in the last GW2 book? If so I havn’t got around to reading that yet.

Also you’ve got a point there about the random monsters, I hadn’t thought about that.

Yeah. I was also replaying Living Story season 2 and I’m a bit more grounded on the idea that Anise might be Livia…namely because Ogden’s a kitten now. You visit him in the Priory and he obviously doesn’t take well to these newer generations, he tells you that he knows about your vision that the Pale Tree gave you, says his source is irrelevant but cares for the greater good of Tyria.

Now, back up – at the Summit, Anise was there in disguise. She could have very easily overheard the situation with the vision and relayed that information to Ogden, who would know she is Livia and would be more willing to trust her.

Somehow, I’m willing to bet that Anise, Livia and Mr. E are all the same person (Mr. E isn’t a Mister, it’s just a homonymous pun on Mystery).

And yeah, I wish M.O.X. was special but I’m just 90% certain it was a gameplay design. It’s the same reason why they made Kieran Thackeray go through the works to become a paragon – they certainly couldn’t give you a fourth ranger hero. If M.O.X. ever did come back, you can bet your kitten he wouldn’t be a “dervish” anymore – he’d have a unique skill set of a superlative golem.