Guild Wars 2

Excellent news

Thanks for the heads up Jon, this is the sort of communication we ask for – I look forward to seeing how it pans out in the end

cheers!

Tweak condition cap in PvE-only? Conditions seem to work exactly as intended in WvW and PvP but are just underpowered when faced against the almighty power of the blob.

I imagine that figuring out the technical changes to split the functionality between PvE-condition stacking and WvW/PvP is easier than the intellectual effort it would take to find a catch all solution.

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

JonPeters.5630:

Rest assured that as soon as we have a final plan we will be revealing it and letting you all know exactly how it will work.

I’m glad to see experiments being conducted on this front.

This is amazing to hear

rapthorne.7345:

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

Nope, even without caps crit damage based specs outperform condition specs, and will continue to do so until conditions can crit.

Trying really hard to not get super hype over this. I’m really interested to see what (if anything) comes of this.

I love you and my necromancer loves you too.

JonPeters.5630:

…we have said for a while now, we know that the current stack cap creates problems for condition players who want to work together. What you saw today was the first test in solving some of these problems. Keep in mind, it is not necessarily final and absolutely not the entire plan.

A question:

Do you anticipate whatever solution AreanNets settles on to be delivered prior to HoT’s release like the current stability changes or to be held to coincide with the expansion?

rapthorne.7345:

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

we would only trade the zerker meta for a condi-meta or a zerker/condi-meta. still no kittening variety.

Hopefully this doesn’t translate to PVP or WvW, conditions are already quite powerful in those modes, but they do need help in PVE. in WvW it could be really bad.

A zerg of players stacks 100 bleeds on stonemist keep lord while the defenders are trying to hold it, and then necros just start casting epidemic.

Pretty much instant killing 5 people at a time.

RashanDale.3609:

rapthorne.7345:

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

we would only trade the zerker meta for a condi-meta or a zerker/condi-meta. still no kittening variety.

Let’s not forget how many bleeds Zerker-geared players can apply as well. Conditions-on-crit are very common and condition damage scaling is meh. This will help keep condition-geared players relevant (as in “they will deal damage”) but it’s unlikely on its own to change the optimal builds.

Thank you so much. That’s the communication we need

rapthorne.7345:

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

It’s a step in making condi deal more damage but it will still be inferior to direct damage(damage isn’t front loaded for condi and most fights don’t last long enough, enemies like Mark T-B34RC3 in CoE actually clear condi on them etc.).

rapthorne.7345:

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

Unfortunately no.

Optimal group zerker builds at maxxed at ~13k dps

Optimal condition builds with no stat cap are at ~9k dps

Additionally they have a longer build up time, frequently have their damage cleansed off bosses, and most importantly only scale off of 1 stat instead of 4.

Upgrading from exotic to ascended zerker gives you a ~20% dmg increase. Upgrading from exotic to ascended rampagers is ~7% dmg increase.

If you use a hybrid build with sinister you can get ~12-15% increase, but still not the scaling of zerker and at that point you are no longer using a condition build anyway.

However I will say that this change is very exciting. It makes condition builds at least viable for open world content, and gives them a chance to actually use their potential instead of being less than useless.

Awesome. Great change for condi builds!

JonPeters.5630:

Nike.2631:

JonPeters.5630:

…we have said for a while now, we know that the current stack cap creates problems for condition players who want to work together. What you saw today was the first test in solving some of these problems. Keep in mind, it is not necessarily final and absolutely not the entire plan.

A question:

Do you anticipate whatever solution AreanNets settles on to be delivered prior to HoT’s release like the current stability changes or to be held to coincide with the expansion?

We don’t know yet, but the goal is to have this BY HoT at the very latest. I don’t think we would hold it if we felt it was the right solution, tested it well and felt it was balanced.

This is great news! can’t wait to see the full changes you guys have got! This has got me very excited!

I think I feel the need to bake these guys cookies!

Firstly, its very cool that you are aiming to remove the condi cap in pve and maybe make some things more viable.

What I must add though is that removing the cap in somewhere like spvp or wvw would completely break the game unless somehting else was changed about condis. Condis’ do have their place in sPvP, thats obvious.

In WvW they also have their place. Its in small scale fights where because of the stat bonuses, they are stupidly strong. It doesn’t need to be buffed because its not viable in large scale fights. Damage condi’s have no real place in large scale fights but soft cc’s(chill, cripple, immobilize) absolutely do(also blind).

ZudetGambeous.9573:

rapthorne.7345:

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

Unfortunately no.

Optimal group zerker builds at maxxed at ~13k dps

Optimal condition builds with no stat cap are at ~9k dps

Additionally they have a longer build up time, frequently have their damage cleansed off bosses, and most importantly only scale off of 1 stat instead of 4.

Upgrading from exotic to ascended zerker gives you a ~20% dmg increase. Upgrading from exotic to ascended rampagers is ~7% dmg increase.

If you use a hybrid build with sinister you can get ~12-15% increase, but still not the scaling of zerker and at that point you are no longer using a condition build anyway.

However I will say that this change is very exciting. It makes condition builds at least viable for open world content, and gives them a chance to actually use their potential instead of being less than useless.

I would argue that the answer is probably a yes and no. If only because the devs have publicly conceded the need for “something” to change about the pve meta ever since the first stream where they discussed the Ferocity changes and why they made those changes. At the same time though, Colin has stated that they don’t want to make glassy builds irrelevant either. With no other information beyond what Jon mentioned and what we’ve seen in the beta, we can’t assume that all the calculations you referenced, Zudet, will remain relevant beyond whatever changes they implement. What we do have confirmation of is what Anet has been saying for years, that they have heard us and have been working on the condition damage issue. Everything else until we get more is speculation. I too look forward to positive changes this might bring to class balance overall and raising the cap, while not a complete solution to the issues raised in the past, is a step in the right direction.

rainisword.7860:

Firstly, its very cool that you are aiming to remove the condi cap in pve and maybe make some things more viable.

What I must add though is that removing the cap in somewhere like spvp or wvw would completely break the game unless somehting else was changed about condis. Condis’ do have their place in sPvP, thats obvious.

In WvW they also have their place. Its in small scale fights where because of the stat bonuses, they are stupidly strong. It doesn’t need to be buffed because its not viable in large scale fights. Damage condi’s have no real place in large scale fights but soft cc’s(chill, cripple, immobilize) absolutely do(also blind).

except they wouldn’t break anything because they are balanced exactly the same as power builds except with a cap.

1 power build can do ~5k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 power builds can do ~10k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 power builds can do ~15k dps to a player in a 3v1

Currently:
1 condi build can do ~4k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 condi builds can do ~7k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 condi builds can do ~7k dps to a player in a 3v1

After the change:
1 condi build can do ~4k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 condi builds can do ~8k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 condi builds can do ~12k dps to a player in a 3v1

So no it wouldn’t break anything, it would finally balance it somewhat. condi builds are still at a dps disadvantage due to poor stat scaling, lack of crits, and condition cleanses.

The one advantage of condi builds is that they hit all classes with equal dps since they are not affected by armor. However that amount is lower than what power builds hit for across the board.

As far as I recall, there were some datamined bits floating on reddit about a mastery that allowed direct damage to be dealt to enemies with ‘Tough Bark’ (I’ve seen that Husks in Silverwastes have the Tough Bark already, although direct damage can be still applied to them). I can imagine many situations in the new content where pure condition builds traited for condi damage and duration will prove far superior or even necessary to overcome some of the mobs or obstacles. as for me, I’m really glad, as I always prefered damage-over-time classes and playstyle.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

rainisword.7860:

Firstly, its very cool that you are aiming to remove the condi cap in pve and maybe make some things more viable.

What I must add though is that removing the cap in somewhere like spvp or wvw would completely break the game unless somehting else was changed about condis. Condis’ do have their place in sPvP, thats obvious.

In WvW they also have their place. Its in small scale fights where because of the stat bonuses, they are stupidly strong. It doesn’t need to be buffed because its not viable in large scale fights. Damage condi’s have no real place in large scale fights but soft cc’s(chill, cripple, immobilize) absolutely do(also blind).

except they wouldn’t break anything because they are balanced exactly the same as power builds except with a cap.

1 power build can do ~5k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 power builds can do ~10k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 power builds can do ~15k dps to a player in a 3v1

Currently:
1 condi build can do ~4k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 condi builds can do ~7k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 condi builds can do ~7k dps to a player in a 3v1

After the change:
1 condi build can do ~4k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 condi builds can do ~8k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 condi builds can do ~12k dps to a player in a 3v1

So no it wouldn’t break anything, it would finally balance it somewhat. condi builds are still at a dps disadvantage due to poor stat scaling, lack of crits, and condition cleanses.

The one advantage of condi builds is that they hit all classes with equal dps since they are not affected by armor. However that amount is lower than what power builds hit for across the board.

Condi’s have always been capped in sPvP and still have an integral part in the meta. They are very strong against certain matchups(condi pressure from double engi is huge). This should tell you enough about how bad it would be in sPvP if there was no condi cap.

Also your math is wrong when calculating the condi’s. 7k dps from 3 condi classes is not really accurate. You have to take into account if they had high might with most condis stacked on them. In that case it would probably be closer to 8 or 10k, not 7. 25 bleeds alone with might can do close to 3500 damage per second.

Wondering: how viable is the concept of conditions being able to crit (and scaling with precision+ferocity [after being rebalanced not to break the game]) from the server performance point of view?

(Offtopic: am I the only one who can never find a thread that gets stickied? 0o)

JonPeters.5630:

We don’t know yet, but the goal is to have this BY HoT at the very latest. I don’t think we would hold it if we felt it was the right solution, tested it well and felt it was balanced.

How very reasonable. Thank you for the insight .

If you have a moment, could you explain some of what we are seeing in this experiment? Players have reported seeing Bleeding and Confusion stacks counting as high as 99, and then a ‘!’ appearing on the debuff icon. That sounds expensive in terms of server-side operations. Does this change only apply to the Wyvern in the current test?

Finally…
I stopped playing as a condi ranger for this… I had my gear stacked for bleed damage… Krait runes, shortbow, and always flanking to get bleed stacks… 1v1 i could get 10-20 stacks depending on the situation, and had a ton of damage, and then i went to a dungeon and i could see that the bleed damage i was doing was almost none, because someone else was stacking bleeds as well, but not geared toward condi damage.

I’d recommend changing condition caps so they change based on enemy rank, and making this cap affect two things: The number of conditions a creature can maintain, and the number of conditions a creature can have on.

For example, for a player, the stacking caps for bleeding could be:

• 5 per player, 15 in total on critters meant to swarm and die in masse with 1-2 hits.
• 10 per player, 25 in total on normal enemies meant to take 3-kittens before going down.
• 25 per player, 25 in total for players, PvP NPCs and veteran enemies.
• 25 per player, 100 in total for elite enemies.
• 25 per player, 250 in total for champions and legendary bosses.
• 25 per player, 1250 or even unlimited total for epic bosses.

So several player trying to stack conditions on another player won’t be able to get more than 25, but 4 or more players against an elite can rack up to 100 stacks, and 50 players against an epic boss can add 25 stacks each.

But then, it’ll go both ways, the number of conditions a creature can have on would also be the number of conditions it can stack: So a champion would be able to put stacks of up to 25, adding to a total of 250.

If your looking for suggestions, mine would be to have each spell have it’s own stack.

This would solve both problems with condition builds. In PVE conditions are limiting the ability of people to properly work together. And in PVP the main problem is how easy it is to nullify a condition build because 1 or 100 stacks are cleared with a single cast.

I’m really glad you guys are looking into this issue.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

rainisword.7860:

Firstly, its very cool that you are aiming to remove the condi cap in pve and maybe make some things more viable.

What I must add though is that removing the cap in somewhere like spvp or wvw would completely break the game unless somehting else was changed about condis. Condis’ do have their place in sPvP, thats obvious.

In WvW they also have their place. Its in small scale fights where because of the stat bonuses, they are stupidly strong. It doesn’t need to be buffed because its not viable in large scale fights. Damage condi’s have no real place in large scale fights but soft cc’s(chill, cripple, immobilize) absolutely do(also blind).

except they wouldn’t break anything because they are balanced exactly the same as power builds except with a cap.

1 power build can do ~5k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 power builds can do ~10k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 power builds can do ~15k dps to a player in a 3v1

Currently:
1 condi build can do ~4k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 condi builds can do ~7k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 condi builds can do ~7k dps to a player in a 3v1

After the change:
1 condi build can do ~4k dps to a player in a 1v1
2 condi builds can do ~8k dps to a player in a 2v1
3 condi builds can do ~12k dps to a player in a 3v1

So no it wouldn’t break anything, it would finally balance it somewhat. condi builds are still at a dps disadvantage due to poor stat scaling, lack of crits, and condition cleanses.

The one advantage of condi builds is that they hit all classes with equal dps since they are not affected by armor. However that amount is lower than what power builds hit for across the board.

Direct damage can be dodged/blocked/blinded/reduced and require the player to invest in 2-3 trait lines and the player becomes more and more fragile, the more he tries to increase that direct dmg.

By Comparison a condi user, invest in a single trait line and the condition dmg cannot be dodged, blocked or reduced, meanwhile the condi user can invest in tank stats without losing DPS

It’s several times easier to apply condi dmg than direct dmg…..this change is extremely bad…extremely

Supreme.3164

By Comparison a condi user, invest in a single trait line and the condition dmg cannot be dodged, blocked or reduced

Don’t forget that you can cleanse conditions

ZudetGambeous.9573:

rapthorne.7345:

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

Unfortunately no.

Optimal group zerker builds at maxxed at ~13k dps

Optimal condition builds with no stat cap are at ~9k dps

Additionally they have a longer build up time, frequently have their damage cleansed off bosses, and most importantly only scale off of 1 stat instead of 4.

Upgrading from exotic to ascended zerker gives you a ~20% dmg increase. Upgrading from exotic to ascended rampagers is ~7% dmg increase.

If you use a hybrid build with sinister you can get ~12-15% increase, but still not the scaling of zerker and at that point you are no longer using a condition build anyway.

However I will say that this change is very exciting. It makes condition builds at least viable for open world content, and gives them a chance to actually use their potential instead of being less than useless.

I’m very curious as to how you got these figures. How do you calculate 13K vs. 9K DPS? Is there some source for this that we can look at?

In particular, I am skeptical regarding the numbers for ascended gear. A 20% damage increase from exotic to ascended seems incredibly high, especially given that ascended is generally regarded as having about a 5% increase. Further, with the stat spread being consistent across all sets, a difference between a 7% and a 20% gain just seems very out of whack.

I’d love to take a look at some numbers and get a better grasp on where you are coming from.

Supreme.3164:

By Comparison a condi user, invest in a single trait line and the condition dmg cannot be dodged, blocked or reduced, meanwhile the condi user can invest in tank stats without losing DPS

This is not true in the least. Abilities that apply conditions can be dodged in the same manner as abilities that inflict direct damage. You can avoid condition damage using the same mechanism. The same thing applies to abilities that are blocked.

In addition, you did not account for the fact that conditions can be cleansed. A 20 second burn can possibly kill you outright, but not if you cleanse it after two seconds. There is no comparable defence for direct damage in which can just remove potential incoming damage.

HoT will introduce the resistance boon, which will negate all conditions applied to a target. The only equivalent for power based damage would be a boon that negates all direct damage, which currently does not exist nor will exist. The only things comparable to this are abilities like endure pain, which are relatively short in duration and on a long cooldown.

In addition, traits do not generally include things like condition duration and condition damage on the same trait line. Furthermore, condition builds often need to opt for some precision in order to gain addition crit procs. So while there is no equivalent of crit damage for condition builds, they often cannot full min-max their stat choices via the trait system due to the way the attributes are spread out.

Lastly, condition damage users do lose DPS when investing in tank stats. For instance, carrion or sinister gear will provide higher DPS than dire gear, but the latter is tankier. Similarly, a burst damage build can maximize DPS by going, say, full berserker, but one can always slot in things like valkyrie, cavalier, or knight gear to help their survivability. Moreover, if you decide to go for things like apothecary gear, your condition damage is often so low that it’s often better to go for a direct damage build with cleric gear instead.

So while condition builds can be more effective some fights, this isn’t always true.

Con damage need 2 other stat source like Power/crit/crit damage,right now you can do good damage that ignore armor in tank gear …

Oh my god Arena Net, been waiting for the change for a while. I can’t be thankful enough!!

50% of WvW focus Guild already disbanded after Stability change patch. Then 50% remaining will be disband after this patch also.

R.I.P. WvW

Anyone from ANET:

I’m very curious about something that only you guys could possibly answer. Do you guys actually know how many bleed stacks are attempted to be applied in a given fight? What I mean is, say you have one of the mega-bosses with 150 players fighting it, and assuming a balanced breakdown of classes, meaning maybe 30-60 solid condi builds in the bunch. Between all those players, do you know what the bleed stack would actually reach if there were zero limits?

Anyways, I think raising the bleed cap is definitely a nice step, but it won’t be a solution unless there is no bleed cap at all, and if there is any sort of bleed cap, it would need to come packed with some other impact that means that every single drop of damage that a condi applies gets applied to the enemy at some point.

Evilliquorz.1360:

50% of WvW focus Guild already disbanded after Stability change patch. Then 50% remaining will disband after this patch also.

R.I.P. WvW

Nice statistic.

Zenith.7301:

rapthorne.7345:

Could this be a breakaway from berserker only meta?

I sure hope so

Nope, even without caps crit damage based specs outperform condition specs, and will continue to do so until conditions can crit.

Please don’t give them ideas.

Great first step! Can’t wait to see (and then critique) what other changes you have in mind to close the gap between condi and direct damage.

They will need to redesign boss encounters as well. Just increasing condition damage won’t solve the problem, it will just kill bosses faster.

They need to give bosses periods where they are immune to physical damage, so that in order to kill them as quickly as possible you have to max condition damage.

rainisword.7860:

Condi’s have always been capped in sPvP and still have an integral part in the meta. They are very strong against certain matchups(condi pressure from double engi is huge). This should tell you enough about how bad it would be in sPvP if there was no condi cap.

Well, I don’t think Anet should remove the condi cap in pvp, cause there is no use for it. However, if you have 25 stacks on bleed on you and you don’t remove them immediately (what you could theoretically do with 100 stacks also), you will die in seconds anyway. I play almost only pvp (with a bit of WvW), and I NEVER get 25 stacks of anything on me. If I come close, I remove it or insta die. So I bet this would change absolutely nothing, much like the stability patch changed nothing in small scale pvp, elite transformations aside.

While this is great news for people who use bleeding in their builds I do hope that poison & burning get some love too.

As is it’s even easier for someone using them to completely negate the damage of someone else who uses them then it is for people who use bleeds.

did anybody find a good opportunity to try epidemic?

im extremely interested.

Somewhere in Tyria Grenth is crying for his prayers have finally been heard.

Fear the terrormancers!

NEVER IN PVP RELATED CONTENT!!!

If when I was on my condi Ranger and could kill anyone in an instant with more than 7 stacks of bleed on them and you want to break the cap, how do you suppose this will affect the overall damage dealt?

It will be overpowered and it will be near to inescapable.

If you can kill them with 7, why would increasing the cap above the current limit of 25 even remotely matter?

I understand the impulse to panic now and avoid the rush… but squelch it.

Mmm… yes, this thing can be an issue in pvp/wvsw. But let’s keep in mind that they are testing and everything can be changed from now on with conditions stack’s problems.

I don’t think they will rend pvp and www unfair because of this tests. Already now condi build are pretty good in both aspect of the game, so let’s wait the first pvp beta access and see if anything is on the plate.

I’m more concerned about dungeons.

If the stack changes are the only workable thing, it will not be enough to make conditioners viable in dungeons because of how fast bosses are killed.

So I hope there’s something more underwork. Or in dungeon aspect nor in condi pve aspects

we need build diversity. let the condi stacking be viable. we only have dps zerker build atm as the meta.