Guild Wars 2

Inoki.6048:

NEVER IN PVP RELATED CONTENT!!!

If when I was on my condi Ranger and could kill anyone in an instant with more than 7 stacks of bleed on them and you want to break the cap, how do you suppose this will affect the overall damage dealt?

It will be overpowered and it will be near to inescapable.

do you know that 100 stacks of bleed can be cleansed instantly?

they could go on with the plan and buff condi cleanse skills.

Before anyone else panics, I would say I think the only mobs that will see an increase in the cap of conditions that are applied to them would probably be Elites, Champions, Legendaries, and Worldbosses (the ones that scale up to huge healthpools with more ppl there). In general running around during events with lots of mobs and players, I’ve currently found my condition/dps hybrid warrior having no issues with competing to apply stacks when there’s multiple targets. Not even in dungeons, since you need to consider that against a ball of mobs, condi builds can generally only stack high on their own against 1-2 targets (except necro with Epidemic, but even then it’s 5 mobs out of however many after initially focusing one). Engis can also stack well against multiples with grenades, but skill recharges limit how high they can go with grenades alone.

So back to my point, the only real place condi-specced builds suffer massively in the current system, is when in groups focusing a single target. Which is usually an Elite, Champ, Legendary, or Worldboss. Upping the caps on those types of mobs would help hugely to make pure condi and condi-hybrid builds more viable in large single-target events. And I would also say don’t worry about Keep Lords in WvW. If there are people stacking them to 25 bleed then using epidemic to infect the defending players stood within 600-range of him, if a player retains a max incoming cap of 25 bleed that can be applied to them, it would make little difference on how many the Lord has on him. If the Lord had 25 or 100, there would still be only 25 applied to 5 defenders in 600 range of him per epidemic. Even getting hit by 25 non-maxed condi dmg bleeds would mean death in seconds without a cleanse, and it’s something that can already happen in the current system. If players retain a max incoming cap of 25, I can’t see the entire or even most of the WvW players swapping out direct damage when in the large fights the direct damage would be better overall. Especially when the defending players during defence tend to nuke from the edges of the room in order to avoid the AoE spammage that gets targeted at the Lord in the centre. Any player who stands in that AoE fest in the middle of the Lord’s room, would probably go splat to the direct damage in that area well before any conditions could kill them

And besides, if Epidemic becomes an issue, all Anet needs to do is reduce the radius to something like 400 instead of 600 so that it can’t affect as much of a Lord Room. In PvE, when on my necro if using epidemic, most cases I use it the mobs I’m fighting are intent on chewing my face off and are nowhere near 600 range away from each other. Even the few times I’ve gone in PvP with it, I tended to use it when the enemy players were well within about 400 of my target (Generally when they’d been herded together ready for an AoE spike). So for me, a 200 reduction on radius for that skill wouldn’t really change anything. (Though I admit I don’t PvP with necro a lot, so this is just my viewpoint) I’d just have to be more careful about when I pop it in PvP

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

Because not all professions have equal access to condition clears.

Power can be mitigated with active combat and toughness/vit. Condis cannot.

As a thought exercise, allow toughness to blunt condition damage in WvW if this goes live, and then it could make for an interesting new meta.

MeanCoffeeBean.2073:

Because not all professions have equal access to condition clears.

Power can be mitigated with active combat and toughness/vit. Condis cannot.

As a thought exercise, allow toughness to blunt condition damage in WvW if this goes live, and then it could make for an interesting new meta.

skills that apply condis can be dodged blocked as well so active combat makes you able to avoid getting condis on you, and well toughness is the main of those 2 stats to counter power, where vit is the main counter to condis, since more life, means you need longer time to get killed by the same condis, and on top of that you get condi removals, as well as the new resistance boon that negate all condi dmg for its duration, giving you time to clear the condis, so the counters are about equal to condis and power dmg

MeanCoffeeBean.2073:

Because not all professions have equal access to condition clears.

Power can be mitigated with active combat and toughness/vit. Condis cannot.

As a thought exercise, allow toughness to blunt condition damage in WvW if this goes live, and then it could make for an interesting new meta.

My idea I had a long time ago was to make Vitality and Toughness bith grant HP (at half the rate vitality does currently, so soldiers would have the same HP for instance) but make it so that Vitality added a condition defense component. I’m not sure I agree with loading all defense into toughness alone.

The other thing is it’s really not anyone’s fault but the players to run with absolutely 0 condi clear.

MeanCoffeeBean.2073:

Because not all professions have equal access to condition clears.

Power can be mitigated with active combat and toughness/vit. Condis cannot.

Well, there is “minus incoming condition duration” gear and food, which is kind of an available counter to conditions for all professions. The food is used quite frequently in WvW when facing condi-heavy opponents.

However, I am not against having a defensive stat to counter conditions explicitly. If I recall early dev posts correctly, the initial concept saw toughness as the primary attribute to counter direct damage, and vitality as the primary attribute to counter conditions, although it did not end up to be that clearly defined in the final game. I could imagine choosing one of those two attributes (vit?) and let it give some “minus incoming condition duration”, too.

~MRA

alcopaul.2156:

Inoki.6048:

NEVER IN PVP RELATED CONTENT!!!

If when I was on my condi Ranger and could kill anyone in an instant with more than 7 stacks of bleed on them and you want to break the cap, how do you suppose this will affect the overall damage dealt?

It will be overpowered and it will be near to inescapable.

do you know that 100 stacks of bleed can be cleansed instantly?

they could go on with the plan and buff condi cleanse skills.

Not to mention I think I’m pretty sure I’ve never seen the condi cap even once is spvp, and if it does exist, only because the one side zerged some poor kitten and he was doomed anyway (not to mention it’s bad spvp tactics to begin with)

Now, Wuv on the other hand I can see this being a problem. Hopefully most of the condi changes stay in PvE only, or at least only affect NPCs. Confusion already does more damage in PvE than it does in PvP/wuv, so there is no reason to believe that Anet can’t/won’t go a similar path with any other changes, especially if we ever talk about, say, boosting the coefficient for Condition damage on damage conditions, or something similar.

Guys… Get the bigger picture.. this is a nerf to the classes whom cannot bleed. ahemguardianahem. Good thing specialization will fix that… right??? lol

Do not take me too seriously I just felt that it was funny.

Also, I do not see why people will quit wvw due to stability change and no idea why they would quit after this change. if they do, they are not SERIOUS wvw guilds anyway, they can leave so good players do not have to que up.

We’re going to at least get a blog post or announcement of some sort if it does make it into HoT or before then, right? Because this is a big deal when it goes through.

rainisword.7860:

Condi’s have always been capped in sPvP and still have an integral part in the meta. They are very strong against certain matchups(condi pressure from double engi is huge). This should tell you enough about how bad it would be in sPvP if there was no condi cap.

Also your math is wrong when calculating the condi’s. 7k dps from 3 condi classes is not really accurate. You have to take into account if they had high might with most condis stacked on them. In that case it would probably be closer to 8 or 10k, not 7. 25 bleeds alone with might can do close to 3500 damage per second.

Let’s look at the math a little more closely:

we’ll assume 100% uptime of max stats of bleed, burning, poison, and 10 stacks of torment. This is far higher than anyone could ever achieve, but it will be a good illustration for you. This of course is assuming no build up time, no cleansing, and no defenses used.

Numbers taken from: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

damage per second/attack per stack = Base Damage + (Factor * Condition Damage).

Max condition damage with full ascended is currently ~2000 + 875 for 25 might stacks (lower in PvP, but again we will try to help you out by using PvE stats)

Bleeds: 42.5 + (0.05*2875) = 186 per stack = 4650 dps
Burning: 328 + (0.25*2875) = 1050 dps
Poison: 84 + (0.1*2875) = 371 dps
Torment: 32 + (0.0375*2875) = 140 per stack (10 stacks) = 1400 dps

total condition user dps from any number of sources = 7471 dps

I will even throw in the ~300 dps you do from direct damage applying the conditions to give you a grand total of:

7777 dps. Of course when you factor in build up time, and cleanses this number plummets drastically.

This of course is well above what is reasonably possible, but I was giving the edge to condition users.

I won’t bother doing the direct damage calculations. you can head on over to the ele forums where they have done extensive analysis of direct damage builds if you are interested.

Supreme.3164:

Direct damage can be dodged/blocked/blinded/reduced and require the player to invest in 2-3 trait lines and the player becomes more and more fragile, the more he tries to increase that direct dmg.

By Comparison a condi user, invest in a single trait line and the condition dmg cannot be dodged, blocked or reduced, meanwhile the condi user can invest in tank stats without losing DPS

It’s several times easier to apply condi dmg than direct dmg…..this change is extremely bad…extremely

Odd I didn’t realize that conditions were immune to dodged/blocked/blinded… oh that’s right they aren’t… so that’s a wash…

They are immune to protection, which gives them an advantage, but then again they don’t benefit from vuln, which puts us right back to a wash.

Conditions can also be cleansed, which given how long it takes to build them up is a significant disadvantage, there is no equivalent for direct damage.

I think the misconception comes from the over time aspect of the damage. If a thief hits you with his sword you take 3k damage instantly. if you dodge/block/blind it you take 0 damage. If a necro hits you with his scepter you take ~100 dmg right away, but then you take 2900 damage over the next 5 seconds. The total damage from those attacks is exactly the same. If you dodge/block/blind the scepter attack you also take no damage, just the same as if you’d done it with a normal attack.

Direct damage users can also invest in a single trait line and take defenses instead, there is nothing stopping them from doing so. Conditions have a lower max dps since they don’t have those extra stats to increase their damage. (see my previous post) so yes they can be tankier but they also have lower damage potential. It may not be perfectly balanced, but it is pretty close.

Skolops.2604:

I’m very curious as to how you got these figures. How do you calculate 13K vs. 9K DPS? Is there some source for this that we can look at?

In particular, I am skeptical regarding the numbers for ascended gear. A 20% damage increase from exotic to ascended seems incredibly high, especially given that ascended is generally regarded as having about a 5% increase. Further, with the stat spread being consistent across all sets, a difference between a 7% and a 20% gain just seems very out of whack.

I’d love to take a look at some numbers and get a better grasp on where you are coming from.

See my previous post for the condition damage dps calculation.

The reason zerker gets such a big boost is because of the damage calculation formula.

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Then you need to add in crit chance and crit multiplier:

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage – 1 ) )

Upgrading from exotic to ascended gives you a 5% increase to weapon strength, power, crit, and crit damage. All of which are multiplied together

So essentially you end up with:

Base Damage = 1.05*(Weapon strength) 1.05 Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + 1.05*Critical Chance * (1.05* Critical Damage – 1 ) )

Lots of simplification… divide by standard formula and you end up with :

% increase = 1.1025 + 0.055*basedmg*critchance/avedmg

I’ll assume 70% crit chance and 220% crit damage ( you can plug in more accurate numbers if you want) and that gives us:

1.135 or a 13.5% increase. So yes it seems I was a little high in my direct damage estimation.

However condition still just scales at 5% since there is no multiplicative calculation for its damage.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

rainisword.7860:

Condi’s have always been capped in sPvP and still have an integral part in the meta. They are very strong against certain matchups(condi pressure from double engi is huge). This should tell you enough about how bad it would be in sPvP if there was no condi cap.

Also your math is wrong when calculating the condi’s. 7k dps from 3 condi classes is not really accurate. You have to take into account if they had high might with most condis stacked on them. In that case it would probably be closer to 8 or 10k, not 7. 25 bleeds alone with might can do close to 3500 damage per second.

Let’s look at the math a little more closely:

we’ll assume 100% uptime of max stats of bleed, burning, poison, and 10 stacks of torment. This is far higher than anyone could ever achieve, but it will be a good illustration for you. This of course is assuming no build up time, no cleansing, and no defenses used.

Numbers taken from: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

damage per second/attack per stack = Base Damage + (Factor * Condition Damage).

Max condition damage with full ascended is currently ~2000 + 875 for 25 might stacks (lower in PvP, but again we will try to help you out by using PvE stats)

Bleeds: 42.5 + (0.05*2875) = 186 per stack = 4650 dps
Burning: 328 + (0.25*2875) = 1050 dps
Poison: 84 + (0.1*2875) = 371 dps
Torment: 32 + (0.0375*2875) = 140 per stack (10 stacks) = 1400 dps

total condition user dps from any number of sources = 7471 dps

I will even throw in the ~300 dps you do from direct damage applying the conditions to give you a grand total of:

7777 dps. Of course when you factor in build up time, and cleanses this number plummets drastically.

This of course is well above what is reasonably possible, but I was giving the edge to condition users.

I won’t bother doing the direct damage calculations. you can head on over to the ele forums where they have done extensive analysis of direct damage builds if you are interested.

Your math used a condi damage number that is ~246 lower than what is possible — at least for a mesmer. One of my memser WvW builds with full might stacks would be at 3121 condition damage.

Bleeds: 42.5 + (0.05*3121) = 198 per stack = 4950 dps
Burning: 328 + (0.25*3121) = 1108 dps
Poison: 84 + (0.1*3121) = 396 dps
Torment: 32 + (0.0375*3121) = 140 per stack (10 stacks) = 1490 dps (2980 if moving))

That makes the damage 7944 (9434 if moving), which falls into the ~8-10k range for damage form the post you quoted. I did not include the ~300 dps for direct damage.

Of course, this is all hypothetical and in reality cleanses make that impossible to maintain for 100% uptime. However, a mesmers can come very close to those numbers during well set up condi burst. They can also stack on 15 confusion for that burst. With the listed condition damage that would add 7475 per skill use.

Confusion: 65 + (0.075 * 3121e) per stack = 4485 damage per skill use. (It would do significantly more damage in PVE).

I do not usually count confusion in damage potential of builds because only really bad players will spam skills once a spike of confusion is sent at them.

Do something about BURNING, please.

A guardian.

Aurika.6751:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

rainisword.7860:

Condi’s have always been capped in sPvP and still have an integral part in the meta. They are very strong against certain matchups(condi pressure from double engi is huge). This should tell you enough about how bad it would be in sPvP if there was no condi cap.

Also your math is wrong when calculating the condi’s. 7k dps from 3 condi classes is not really accurate. You have to take into account if they had high might with most condis stacked on them. In that case it would probably be closer to 8 or 10k, not 7. 25 bleeds alone with might can do close to 3500 damage per second.

Let’s look at the math a little more closely:

we’ll assume 100% uptime of max stats of bleed, burning, poison, and 10 stacks of torment. This is far higher than anyone could ever achieve, but it will be a good illustration for you. This of course is assuming no build up time, no cleansing, and no defenses used.

Numbers taken from: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

damage per second/attack per stack = Base Damage + (Factor * Condition Damage).

Max condition damage with full ascended is currently ~2000 + 875 for 25 might stacks (lower in PvP, but again we will try to help you out by using PvE stats)

Bleeds: 42.5 + (0.05*2875) = 186 per stack = 4650 dps
Burning: 328 + (0.25*2875) = 1050 dps
Poison: 84 + (0.1*2875) = 371 dps
Torment: 32 + (0.0375*2875) = 140 per stack (10 stacks) = 1400 dps

total condition user dps from any number of sources = 7471 dps

I will even throw in the ~300 dps you do from direct damage applying the conditions to give you a grand total of:

7777 dps. Of course when you factor in build up time, and cleanses this number plummets drastically.

This of course is well above what is reasonably possible, but I was giving the edge to condition users.

I won’t bother doing the direct damage calculations. you can head on over to the ele forums where they have done extensive analysis of direct damage builds if you are interested.

Your math used a condi damage number that is ~246 lower than what is possible — at least for a mesmer. One of my memser WvW builds with full might stacks would be at 3121 condition damage.

Bleeds: 42.5 + (0.05*3121) = 198 per stack = 4950 dps
Burning: 328 + (0.25*3121) = 1108 dps
Poison: 84 + (0.1*3121) = 396 dps
Torment: 32 + (0.0375*3121) = 140 per stack (10 stacks) = 1490 dps (2980 if moving))

That makes the damage 7944 (9434 if moving), which falls into the ~8-10k range for damage form the post you quoted. I did not include the ~300 dps for direct damage.

Of course, this is all hypothetical and in reality cleanses make that impossible to maintain for 100% uptime. However, a mesmers can come very close to those numbers during well set up condi burst. They can also stack on 15 confusion for that burst. With the listed condition damage that would add 7475 per skill use.

Confusion: 65 + (0.075 * 3121e) per stack = 4485 damage per skill use. (It would do significantly more damage in PVE).

I do not usually count confusion in damage potential of builds because only really bad players will spam skills once a spike of confusion is sent at them.

I’m not sure how you are getting quite that high…though I suppose it is possible if you have 25 stack sigil, utility buff and food buff and possibly some infusions.

Of course if you look back at my original post (I cut it to make the post character limit) I was the one that quoted 9k as max dps for condition users. Which was the point. Max dps for power users is ~12-13k dps. And that is real achievable dps, not the imaginary dps that we are using here.

Personally as a necro, I have NEVER seen my bleeds go above 4k per tick. I would love to see kitten of someone actually managing that. It might be possible with the VW buffs on a solo husk champ, maybe? Of course no class that I know of can keep 100% uptime of all those conditions at once. as a necro I can get to the 25 bleed cap in bursts, but the average is ~19. I also have very limited access to burning, and am capped at 5 stacks of torment even with the sigil. I can get 100% poison uptime, though.

But in the end, even just removing the cap would be a monumental achievement for condition users, as we would at least be competitive in the game instead of dead weight. If we get additional changes as well then that would be even better. I think giving conditions the ability to crit in some manner would solve most of the problems.

Thank You Jon and Anet for finally working on this.

So glad to you you guys working on this at least. Was very disappointing to come back from a long hiatus and see the same problem(s) with condition builds for many classes. I Hope condition builds can become DPS Competative in PvE as I enjoy playing these builds the most in both PvE and PvP. I know its a tough problem to solve, especially considering PvE specific situations like dungeon speed clear groups where nothing currently even remotely comes close to the berserker meta builds. Fingers crossed.

Maybe it is just me, but why do we have condi-dmg anyways in gw2?

Conditions behave almost exactly like boons.
they can be transmuted (corrupted), cleared (ripped), can get transfered (stolen), get applied by certain skills, have traits/buff-food to increase / decrease their duration, and while some stack in intensity, others stack in duration.
But unlike boons, conditions have a numeric attribute to scale their intensity even further. Condition dmg.

But instead of giving players a valuable option to apply dmg, this stat causes more problems than advantages. Different players have different condi-dmg values, so conditions like burning and poison will tick to different dmg values if more than one player applies them, punishing those who build for condi-dmg.
Boons on the other hand have fixed bonuses, that always give the same advantage, regardless who applied them. (yes I’m aware that fury will give +30% crit chance if applied by a revenant who traited for it, which is just a new way to mess with group-play, since it always can get over-written by untraited fury from other classes, introducing the same problems conditions currently have to fury)

So my suggestion is the following:
Remove condi-dmg as a stat completely from the game, increase the base-dmg of conditions to a fixed value somewhere in the middle of the current range of possible condi-dmg (main focus should be that conditions still stay viable), and therefore allow everybody to contribute with damaging conditions – just like they currently can with boons – equally.

This should also work fine in PvP, where everybody and their mother cries about condi-cheese, because it will reward more active play and proper skill-combos.

I’m aware that this will impact a lot of items and their stat-combos and maybe even punish players who crafted ascended gear focused around condi-dmg, but regardless how you wanna fix the current issues with condi-dmg, if the attribute itself stays in the game any solution will be nothing but another patchwork, introducing a whole lot of new issues.
The whole concept around condition-dmg never felt really satisfying and if you already accepted the fact that a change must be made to the current mechanic, you should be bolt enough to accept that the real issue with conditions in group-play is the individual condi-dmg value each player builds for.

I use a mesmer a lot and one problem with conditions (and this has been mentioned in brief) is condition damage is small at first unlike like that of a dagger strike. Conditions take time to ramp up to be of any meaningful use but once the stacks build up, the damage is good. Best of luck trying to find a way to balance conditions and their damage with that of straight damage. While the extra stacks would help with longer fights, it does almost nothing for regular mobs. That is where conditions suffer a lot. And that is why the mesmer has zerker gear. I also noticed when the mesmer uses the staff, the Winds of Chaos is slow to launch. While with a group, some mobs are dead before I would get one orb to them, even at closer range. That makes it hard to put out one’s share of the damage and also denies a chance for loot so for the mesmer, it makes the staff kind of weak most of the time which weakens conditions even more for them. This is too bad since the mesmer with a staff can do some nice things for a group but if my loot opportunities are less because the auto-nuke is slow, I lose. Gotta stay on the greatsword.

I think I’m going to wildly speculate on how this is being accomplished:

Before:

• Each unit (PC, NPC, mob, etc.) has a certain number of slots to receive boons and conditions with.
• Each slot can only accept a specific effect — e.g., you have 25 slots for bleeds, nine slots for burns, etc.

After:

• Each unit (PC, NPC, mob, etc.) has a certain number of slots to apply or inflict boons and conditions with.
• Individual slots might be able to accept several different types of effect — e.g., you might just have 64 slots with which to apply boons or conditions of any type.
• Boons and conditions will still have caps of some sort to prevent craziness like dungeon groups running around with +9600 power and condition damage from might stacks.

If I’m right, this would actually be something of a nerf in PvP, since applying lots of conditions might restrict your ability to cover them or to apply boons.

Note that while strictly speaking, this makes conditions into a per-player deal, it’s not the same thing that people normally talk about when they suggest that method.

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

and actually, that’s with very MODEST amount of condi damage (1700, relatively easy to obtain, just an average figure to account for some of the stacks having very low condi damage while others have higher)

Higher amounts of condition damage will begin to one shot the medium health classes, and the low health classes even without being zerker. And mind you that’s ONLY the bleed, there’d also be burning poison, stacks of torment, and confusion all on top. Probably capable of killing anyone but a full soldiers or sentinels warrior in 1-2 ticks.

This is in a situation of using epidemic on a keep lord in WvW, it’d basically 1 shot 5 people for each necro casting epidemic.

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

read my edit. This is the situation that concerns me. It’s epidemic when used on a legendary or champion keep lord while the other side is trying to defend it. It’s impossible for 1 person to stack 100 bleeds, it’d be very easy for 40 people to stack 100 bleeds, they’d be able to do it in just a few seconds, and then the epidemics start one shotting people.

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

read my edit. This is the situation that concerns me. It’s epidemic when used on a legendary or champion keep lord while the other side is trying to defend it. It’s impossible for 1 person to stack 100 bleeds, it’d be very easy for 40 people to stack 100 bleeds, they’d be able to do it in just a few seconds, and then the epidemics start one shotting people.

I fail to see an issue with this as it’s not a 1 shot. The burst you’re describing would require at fair bit of coordination and setup. Using epidemic in a PvP based arena where in you only have 5 members on a team to begin with already limits how high one can stack conditions.

Even if you do not mean sPvP and mean WvW, this change is actually quite healthy as it adds more depth and options to zerg play and counter play.

JonPeters.5630:

Hey Everyone,

As you may have noticed bleeding stacks go above 25 stacks when playing in the demo map. This is not a mistake, rather as we have said for a while now, we know that the current stack cap creates problems for condition players who want to work together. What you saw today was the first test in solving some of these problems. Keep in mind, it is not necessarily final and absolutely not the entire plan. I see many questions about how this will work and how it impacts other conditions, balance, etc. Rest assured that as soon as we have a final plan we will be revealing it and letting you all know exactly how it will work.

Jon

Will we see personal single stacks of poison, chill, or burning? (ie no interrupts of any other players out there putting their own on the enemy)

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

read my edit. This is the situation that concerns me. It’s epidemic when used on a legendary or champion keep lord while the other side is trying to defend it. It’s impossible for 1 person to stack 100 bleeds, it’d be very easy for 40 people to stack 100 bleeds, they’d be able to do it in just a few seconds, and then the epidemics start one shotting people.

Then perhaps some effort would start being made to supporting the Lord. Cleanses work just as well on him as anyone else. In the case of lord defenses, I have never seen a situation where both an Epedemic could copy that much and there were players around for those conditions to be copied to that weren’t going to die in a couple seconds anyway.

@tigirius.9014: Not sure Chill matters who’s stack is who’s, since the condition’s effectiveness doesn’t scale with anything.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

read my edit. This is the situation that concerns me. It’s epidemic when used on a legendary or champion keep lord while the other side is trying to defend it. It’s impossible for 1 person to stack 100 bleeds, it’d be very easy for 40 people to stack 100 bleeds, they’d be able to do it in just a few seconds, and then the epidemics start one shotting people.

Then perhaps some effort would start being made to supporting the Lord. Cleanses work just as well on him as anyone else. In the case of lord defenses, I have never seen a situation where both an Epedemic could copy that much and there were players around for those conditions to be copied to that weren’t going to die in a couple seconds anyway.

@tigirius.9014: Not sure Chill matters who’s stack is who’s, since the condition’s effectiveness doesn’t scale with anything.

I’ve been in plenty of zerg vs zerg fights right on the stonemist castle keep lord, where warriors are bannering to keep him up and fighting in that room with arrowcart support, etc.

I can easily see situations where epidemic is just one shotting people with the unlimited bleed stacking.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

See my previous post for the condition damage dps calculation.

The reason zerker gets such a big boost is because of the damage calculation formula.

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Then you need to add in crit chance and crit multiplier:

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage – 1 ) )

Upgrading from exotic to ascended gives you a 5% increase to weapon strength, power, crit, and crit damage. All of which are multiplied together

So essentially you end up with:

Base Damage = 1.05*(Weapon strength) 1.05 Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + 1.05*Critical Chance * (1.05* Critical Damage – 1 ) )

Lots of simplification… divide by standard formula and you end up with :

% increase = 1.1025 + 0.055*basedmg*critchance/avedmg

I’ll assume 70% crit chance and 220% crit damage ( you can plug in more accurate numbers if you want) and that gives us:

1.135 or a 13.5% increase. So yes it seems I was a little high in my direct damage estimation.

However condition still just scales at 5% since there is no multiplicative calculation for its damage.

Even if ascended gear gives 5% boost to your stats it doesn’t mean you now have 105% of your old power, critical damage and critical chance. Without any traits, runes, food and all kind of buffs like might stacks, fury, banners, etc you have about 4.4% more power, 2.3% more critical chance and 3.1% more critical damage. (which doesn’t mean it’s 102.3% and 103,1% of you old critical chance and critical damage respectively by the way). With food, runes and typical buffs it’s even worse – 102,5% power, 102,7% critical chance and 101,3% critical damage.

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

read my edit. This is the situation that concerns me. It’s epidemic when used on a legendary or champion keep lord while the other side is trying to defend it. It’s impossible for 1 person to stack 100 bleeds, it’d be very easy for 40 people to stack 100 bleeds, they’d be able to do it in just a few seconds, and then the epidemics start one shotting people.

So epidemic is the problem? well why should all condi builds be hampered to not allow full effect because of ONE skill? quite simple if a target has well lets say more than the 25 of a condition, it only copy 25 stacks, nice and easily fixed (there will OBVIOUSLY be tweaks to some condi skills and specially condi-using skills, just like there were changes to stab skills when they introduced the new stab mechanic

rotten.9753:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

See my previous post for the condition damage dps calculation.

The reason zerker gets such a big boost is because of the damage calculation formula.

Damage done = (Weapon strength) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Then you need to add in crit chance and crit multiplier:

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + Critical Chance * ( Critical Damage – 1 ) )

Upgrading from exotic to ascended gives you a 5% increase to weapon strength, power, crit, and crit damage. All of which are multiplied together

So essentially you end up with:

Base Damage = 1.05*(Weapon strength) 1.05 Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Average damage = Base damage * ( 1 + 1.05*Critical Chance * (1.05* Critical Damage – 1 ) )

Lots of simplification… divide by standard formula and you end up with :

% increase = 1.1025 + 0.055*basedmg*critchance/avedmg

I’ll assume 70% crit chance and 220% crit damage ( you can plug in more accurate numbers if you want) and that gives us:

1.135 or a 13.5% increase. So yes it seems I was a little high in my direct damage estimation.

However condition still just scales at 5% since there is no multiplicative calculation for its damage.

Even if ascended gear gives 5% boost to your stats it doesn’t mean you now have 105% of your old power, critical damage and critical chance. Without any traits, runes, food and all kind of buffs like might stacks, fury, banners, etc you have about 4.4% more power, 2.3% more critical chance and 3.1% more critical damage. (which doesn’t mean it’s 102.3% and 103,1% of you old critical chance and critical damage respectively by the way). With food, runes and typical buffs it’s even worse – 102,5% power, 102,7% critical chance and 101,3% critical damage.

Well you are welcome to do your own calculation, I did the calculation being told it was a 5% increase, if you think the increase is something else then I’d be open to looking at your calculations.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Well you are welcome to do your own calculation, I did the calculation being told it was a 5% increase, if you think the increase is something else then I’d be open to looking at your calculations.

Well, you were told wrong.

An ascended weapon has 5% higher weapon strength and that’s the biggest benefit of having an ascended gear. The stat differences, on the other hand, are slightly different. The difference in stats on weapons and armours is about 4-5% but on trinkets it’s about 9-12%. Altogether, the difference in stats between fully ascended and fully exotic geared player is about 8,4% for a major stat (85 points difference) and about 6,7% for a minor one (47 points difference).

To explain my results in the previous post, you have 2013 power, 1671 precision and 745 ferocity with full ascended gear but without any runes, traits and buffs. Under the same conditions but with full exotic gear you have 1928 power, 1624 precision and 698 ferocity.

On the other hand, a typical pve build with 25 mights, fury, truffle steak food and both offensive banners with full ascended gear has 3508 power, 2631 precision and 1315 ferocity. Obviously, the fully exotic geared player under the same condition will have 3423 power, 2584 precision and 1268 ferocity.

All in all, the difference in stats doesn’t mean the increase is the same. You have to include your base stats, runes, traits and even typical buffs. That drastically reduces the difference.

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

read my edit. This is the situation that concerns me. It’s epidemic when used on a legendary or champion keep lord while the other side is trying to defend it. It’s impossible for 1 person to stack 100 bleeds, it’d be very easy for 40 people to stack 100 bleeds, they’d be able to do it in just a few seconds, and then the epidemics start one shotting people.

Then perhaps some effort would start being made to supporting the Lord. Cleanses work just as well on him as anyone else. In the case of lord defenses, I have never seen a situation where both an Epedemic could copy that much and there were players around for those conditions to be copied to that weren’t going to die in a couple seconds anyway.

@tigirius.9014: Not sure Chill matters who’s stack is who’s, since the condition’s effectiveness doesn’t scale with anything.

I’ve been in plenty of zerg vs zerg fights right on the stonemist castle keep lord, where warriors are bannering to keep him up and fighting in that room with arrowcart support, etc.

I can easily see situations where epidemic is just one shotting people with the unlimited bleed stacking.

Three things:

1. Are the Lord’s condition stacks getting high? Most of the time when there is a defending zerg, the answer is “no.”

2. Are any within 600 range of their allied Lord? Typically, if the condition stacks are getting high, the answer is again “no.”

3. Are any that would get conditions transferred to them not going to die rapidly to even 20 stacks of bleed + burning and poison? Given the Lord is the focus of the heaviest fire, the vast majority of the time, the answer is “no.”

The answer to all three of those has to be “yes” for Epidemic to kill the way you are suggesting will be a problem post-cap removal.

GummiBear.2756:

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

read my edit. This is the situation that concerns me. It’s epidemic when used on a legendary or champion keep lord while the other side is trying to defend it. It’s impossible for 1 person to stack 100 bleeds, it’d be very easy for 40 people to stack 100 bleeds, they’d be able to do it in just a few seconds, and then the epidemics start one shotting people.

So epidemic is the problem? well why should all condi builds be hampered to not allow full effect because of ONE skill? quite simple if a target has well lets say more than the 25 of a condition, it only copy 25 stacks, nice and easily fixed (there will OBVIOUSLY be tweaks to some condi skills and specially condi-using skills, just like there were changes to stab skills when they introduced the new stab mechanic

Yes, Epidemic is the main problem.

Relatively short cooldown and it copies all conditions from target to 5 nearby targets.

JonPeters.5630:

Hey Everyone,

As you may have noticed bleeding stacks go above 25 stacks when playing in the demo map. This is not a mistake, rather as we have said for a while now, we know that the current stack cap creates problems for condition players who want to work together. What you saw today was the first test in solving some of these problems. Keep in mind, it is not necessarily final and absolutely not the entire plan. I see many questions about how this will work and how it impacts other conditions, balance, etc. Rest assured that as soon as we have a final plan we will be revealing it and letting you all know exactly how it will work.

Jon

Bleeds and burns (or fears for necros) are the heavy hitters in terms of condi builds. Confusion and torment have their place but are more situational… and then there’s poisons… which aside from the healing debuff, is severely underwhelming. This thought just occurred to me and I hope the Devs will at least experiment with it or something like it:

Poisons should stack duration with a duration cap instead of a stack cap. So, poisons would keep stacking until a 3.5 minute duration was met and would truncate anything that goes over 3.5 minutes per application. 3.5 minutes is a loooong time and is rather arbitrary, but here’s the twist. I suggest that not only does it stack in duration, but the duration itself will cause a stack of intensity.

Every 60 seconds worth of total current duration would create 1 stack of intensity. Let’s keep the 3.5 minute duration max for the sake of this explanation so the max intensity would be 3. The heal debuff would not stack with intensity, only the damage.

So for example, let’s take the highest potential poison stacking you could go. Let’s say a venom thief takes venomous aura and residual venom and has +50% condition duration. If the thief applies spider venom, 5 players would each apply 9 seconds of poison 6 times each. The total poison duration would be 4.5 minutes. Currently, only the first 9 applications would stack in duration, giving a total duration of 81 seconds in an ideal world where no other shorter duration poison was applied in the middle there. With this new system, the cap is 3.5 minutes and since the 3.5 minutes would stay at the cap until the last person applied their venom, it could max out realistically around 3.75 minutes. However, the intensity would spike up to 3 and drop by 1 every 60 seconds. So, in this example there would be 75 ish ticks of 3 intensity, 60 ticks of 2, then 60 of 1, as opposed to 81 ticks of 1 intensity with the old system.

The numbers again, are arbitrary, but there is plenty of room to balance the numbers. Most importantly, I think this new mechanic gives an incentive to stack poisons while also keeping with the theme of how poisons already work compared to bleeds and burns.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Devildoc.6721:

ronpierce.2760:

Why in the world are people afraid it’ll break PVP? Full stacks of bleed can be washed off like its nothing, let alone the incoming Resistance Boon. Not to mention, I don’t know anyone who can “easily” stack 25 bleeds in a realistic pvp setting alone. So essentially this will just make it so people can play together. If you get that many stacks from being ganged up on, it’s fine to die… Power players would have had you killed seconds sooner.

100 stacks of bleed will kill you before you can cleanse them on many classes. 1 tick and you’d be dead on an Ele, Thief, or Guardian even, it’s about 13000 damage a tick at that big of a stack with a good amount of condi damage.

And the equivalent amount of focus from non-condition builds wouldn’t kill you before you can cleanse an immobilize? The highest bleed skill in the game is Flurry (warrior sword burst) with 12 bleeds. To hit 100 bleed stacks, you have to have 8 Warriors simultaneously bursting you at a minimum (including the bleed on crit trait).

I’m sorry, but if you eat 8 burst skills simultaneously, you should die stupidly fast. It doesn’t matter what those skills are.

read my edit. This is the situation that concerns me. It’s epidemic when used on a legendary or champion keep lord while the other side is trying to defend it. It’s impossible for 1 person to stack 100 bleeds, it’d be very easy for 40 people to stack 100 bleeds, they’d be able to do it in just a few seconds, and then the epidemics start one shotting people.

Then perhaps some effort would start being made to supporting the Lord. Cleanses work just as well on him as anyone else. In the case of lord defenses, I have never seen a situation where both an Epedemic could copy that much and there were players around for those conditions to be copied to that weren’t going to die in a couple seconds anyway.

@tigirius.9014: Not sure Chill matters who’s stack is who’s, since the condition’s effectiveness doesn’t scale with anything.

I’ve been in plenty of zerg vs zerg fights right on the stonemist castle keep lord, where warriors are bannering to keep him up and fighting in that room with arrowcart support, etc.

I can easily see situations where epidemic is just one shotting people with the unlimited bleed stacking.

Three things:

1. Are the Lord’s condition stacks getting high? Most of the time when there is a defending zerg, the answer is “no.”

2. Are any within 600 range of their allied Lord? Typically, if the condition stacks are getting high, the answer is again “no.”

3. Are any that would get conditions transferred to them not going to die rapidly to even 20 stacks of bleed + burning and poison? Given the Lord is the focus of the heaviest fire, the vast majority of the time, the answer is “no.”

The answer to all three of those has to be “yes” for Epidemic to kill the way you are suggesting will be a problem post-cap removal.

aoe condition cleanses are limited to 5 targets and will target players in your own group or other players before targetting an NPC, so yes, condition stacks can get high on a legendary boss while your zerg is defending it. Remember there’s a lot of ways to stack bleed., even autoattacks stack it.

I was a huge condition damage fan and I was disappointed when the meta became the boring full zero. I usually played a glamour condition mesmer in wvw and I still try to make it work in pvp, so I’m more than excited about this change… I only hope that the situation don’t run out of control, givin’ us party full condition everywhere XD

About time. It is criminal that a game such as GW2 took so long to recognize and start dealing with this problem of condition damage being utterly unviable with very low quality of life in many scenarios, including high end PvE.

They better fix poison and burning in addition to bleeds. If they do, I will be very happy, but lord did they take their sweet time.

Alex.9268:

About time. It is criminal that a game such as GW2 took so long to recognize and start dealing with this problem of condition damage being utterly unviable with very low quality of life in many scenarios, including high end PvE.

They better fix poison and burning in addition to bleeds. If they do, I will be very happy, but lord did they take their sweet time.

i am assuming that they are using bleed as a test case and will apply the solution that they like to the other conditions with perhaps exceptions for things like torment or fear

No answer for the question of poison and burning I see?

tigirius.9014:

No answer for the question of poison and burning I see?

well they said there will be a blog post with the details of the changes. We will have to wait for that. They said they are changing more than just stack limits, so hopefully that means something is being done about burning and poison.

i know a solution….stackable burning huehuehuehuehue

tigirius.9014:

No answer for the question of poison and burning I see?

JonPeters said in the OP in this very thread: “What you saw today was the first test in solving some of these problems”

So the stack cap removal from confusion and bleeding is from that statemant only part of it and may not even be the final solution, chances are they dont evne know what the final result are gonna be themselves

I doubt the release of the condition caps will debalance the game. The fact conditions can be ignored above the cap is a stronger incentive to release the cap, then shifts in the meta would be to not release the cap. The cap was in place to handle loads from players, but in effect caused half of the game outside 1 vs 1 encounters to be non viable for more then half the games armors, traits, weapons, foods, buffs.

Conditions were viable in special niche area’s ingame: 1vs1 encounters in Pve, condition support in PvE and roaming in WvW and were part of the PvP meta for the better part it has existed, but all group content was severely hampered by the cap. doing world bosses with a condition build has cost me a few chests at low area WorldBosses in the past..

Most people in WvW especially in guild groups know the relative value of conditions, the better part of people runs condition reduction (melandru, antitoxin, sunless, trooper, hoelbrak) with food (lemongrass & poultry soup or the cheaper variant(s)) effects of conditions in WvW are limited as long as people stick together.. I doubt we will be able to stack more then 25 bleeds on anyone ever, and if it’s done it’s a Flurry attack from a warrior, and the stack is removed in seconds… in any case where you’d be alone and meet a conditions group now you run or die (when you receive 25 bleeds and poison, 10-15 torment, terror, and confusion from a ranger/thief, mesmer and a necro you’ll be dead, as you would die 1 vs 3 or 4 in DPS situations)

In PvE most conditions are stackable to 3 maybe 5 stacks from enemies, but sometimes you get 2 or more distinct conditions as is, in rare cases (mostly dungeons) stacks of 25 are reached and fatal. It is good you can die of something in pve The fact stacks would be unlocked would benefit the community due to the damage actually being procced and calculated instead of fading away. It would allow condition users functioning very efficient in Dungeons instead of cancelling eachother out. Allowing condition players to play together.

For PvP I expect the pressure from conditions wouldn’t be much different from what it is now as 2 or 3 condition users focussing 1 player will keep destroying the sole player. Then again most will lose from 2 or 3 dps as well… Only thing could be perfectly timed epidemics on overstacked players (revenants?) or people with temporary invulnerability to condition dmg, which would allow for really spectacular bombs. I doubt honestly when condition caps are released it really matters if you spike somone with 24 or 48 bleeds, as you’ll die in both cases if you cannot remove, with 2400 condition dmg this should be around 125-133 bleed/tick (2500-3000/tick or 5000-6000/ tick, both tend to be fatal in 3 to 5 seconds…) 2400 condition dmg is not impossible and epidemic could keep people away…. Grouping down people using condition builds requires TIME, as time is the only valuable resource in PvP the grouping down of enemies with more then 2 people is a waste of time…

Generally
It could make necro condition very strong again, and IMHO mesmer will trail behind due to the rediculously short conditions, ranger will find a very clear use as trapper/thief killer, condithief will stay where it is now, and Sword warrior might gain some love… Earth attunement would become more the AOE blind and the blast finisher and the wall…
But we could play TOGETHER.

And BEST things will be:
We can use more condition players in an instance…
We could gain credit on world bosses easier now with a full condi build
We no longer have to solely rely on “zerk is king, all others are bleerghhh META”
We will be able to use severral new armors types in group events/instances

Unlocking:
rampager(= minor, comparable to assassin for conditions& dmg hybrid),
sinister (max comparable to zerker for conditions& dmg hybrid),highest condition w. crit& power
carrion (max comparable to valkyrie for conditions& dmg hybrid),
rabid (max comparable to “knights” for conditions), highest condition w. crit&toughness
dire (max comparable to soldier for conditions) max condition builds
apothecary ( minor comparable to clerics for conditions)) life steal conditions?
(and others)

All these armors will find a place, finally more choices then zerk for pve/dungeons, soldiers for world bosses and soldiers/cavalier/knight combo’s for wvw

But I need to see this for real…. Condition awareness, reduction food and condition reduction/removal runes will become more interesting…. The return of use for half the games content will be more then interesting and the shift in META would be very interesting…if not EPIC!

Lastly I wonder how dangerous conditions are in certain cases… 5 Mallyx revenants? continually stacking resistance?…

I had to repost what you said again so maybe they see.I love my ranger and this kitteners been kittening about it for years!I am a realy good ranger,I wvw alot and kick kitten doing so but I had to learn all other classes just to bet them ,ranger need buff!When a war can press one and kitten up 6 people and never use anything else that is a problem!Ty,anet for what you did to stabiliy because gard isn’t a god mod class!I can remove fast whitch is good when everyone in god mod but ranger!Anet what happened to you?I been here sence gw1,I want my rainbow phoenix back not 2 to 3 pets with the same skills!the white raven ,come own here!Let think here with need buffs!We need what we earned in gw1 rainbow phoenix!Its was hell to get and some still play gw1 or re-got it just to get the things earned in it.So please lisen to us ,we only need a little buff not a big one !To make it so we do have to make a gard just to do wvw ,or get kicked before the group starts because you don’t want to chang to a different class!

JonPeters.5630:

Hey Everyone,

As you may have noticed bleeding stacks go above 25 stacks when playing in the demo map. This is not a mistake, rather as we have said for a while now, we know that the current stack cap creates problems for condition players who want to work together. What you saw today was the first test in solving some of these problems. Keep in mind, it is not necessarily final and absolutely not the entire plan. I see many questions about how this will work and how it impacts other conditions, balance, etc. Rest assured that as soon as we have a final plan we will be revealing it and letting you all know exactly how it will work.

Jon

In addition to the question I posed above, will there be a concerted effort to remove the general blasé availability of certain conditions for everyone like bleeding for example so that only those who choose certain traits will have conditions turned on?

I think that both stacking and restricting certain conditions to condition builds would go a long way in preventing any problems with your servers during events.

The reduction of on crit bleeds as tigirius mentions could be good or bad…

I prefer them staying around, as the cap will noplonger be influenced by bleeds from dps-ers and DoT will be buffed even if it is ever so slightly, In case where the cap is replaced by overflow we will see a increase in uptime if the bleeds remain. The wish for removal of thoise bleeds is only based on a smaller cap with less room for those bleeds

YESS FINALLY TRAPS! AXES! NEW META. brb making rabid gear for my ranger :^)

If You asked me (pve player) i would let benefit from % modifiers while doing condition dmg and/or crit with conditions + make each spell have it’s own condition (idk if affected by ferocity, i’m not a balance master). On my necro with 25 stacks i’m doing 3k+dps + poison and “powerful” AA dmg – it’s something about 3.5k dps? maybe slightly better 50% crit with 200% dmg makes it over 5k. + 25 vulnerability it’s 5250 (remember that conditioners doesn’t stack vulnerability in most cases) It’s not even 6k dps, while thief’s are doing… much more. Relying on this simple math it won’t be unbalanced.
No matter how they will solve it, ANY solve is better than no solve. So work kitten it :P

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Aurika.6751:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

rainisword.7860:

Condi’s have always been capped in sPvP and still have an integral part in the meta. They are very strong against certain matchups(condi pressure from double engi is huge). This should tell you enough about how bad it would be in sPvP if there was no condi cap.

Also your math is wrong when calculating the condi’s. 7k dps from 3 condi classes is not really accurate. You have to take into account if they had high might with most condis stacked on them. In that case it would probably be closer to 8 or 10k, not 7. 25 bleeds alone with might can do close to 3500 damage per second.

Let’s look at the math a little more closely:

we’ll assume 100% uptime of max stats of bleed, burning, poison, and 10 stacks of torment. This is far higher than anyone could ever achieve, but it will be a good illustration for you. This of course is assuming no build up time, no cleansing, and no defenses used.

Numbers taken from: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

damage per second/attack per stack = Base Damage + (Factor * Condition Damage).

Max condition damage with full ascended is currently ~2000 + 875 for 25 might stacks (lower in PvP, but again we will try to help you out by using PvE stats)

Bleeds: 42.5 + (0.05*2875) = 186 per stack = 4650 dps
Burning: 328 + (0.25*2875) = 1050 dps
Poison: 84 + (0.1*2875) = 371 dps
Torment: 32 + (0.0375*2875) = 140 per stack (10 stacks) = 1400 dps

total condition user dps from any number of sources = 7471 dps

I will even throw in the ~300 dps you do from direct damage applying the conditions to give you a grand total of:

7777 dps. Of course when you factor in build up time, and cleanses this number plummets drastically.

This of course is well above what is reasonably possible, but I was giving the edge to condition users.

I won’t bother doing the direct damage calculations. you can head on over to the ele forums where they have done extensive analysis of direct damage builds if you are interested.

Your math used a condi damage number that is ~246 lower than what is possible — at least for a mesmer. One of my memser WvW builds with full might stacks would be at 3121 condition damage.

Bleeds: 42.5 + (0.05*3121) = 198 per stack = 4950 dps
Burning: 328 + (0.25*3121) = 1108 dps
Poison: 84 + (0.1*3121) = 396 dps
Torment: 32 + (0.0375*3121) = 140 per stack (10 stacks) = 1490 dps (2980 if moving))

That makes the damage 7944 (9434 if moving), which falls into the ~8-10k range for damage form the post you quoted. I did not include the ~300 dps for direct damage.

Of course, this is all hypothetical and in reality cleanses make that impossible to maintain for 100% uptime. However, a mesmers can come very close to those numbers during well set up condi burst. They can also stack on 15 confusion for that burst. With the listed condition damage that would add 7475 per skill use.

Confusion: 65 + (0.075 * 3121e) per stack = 4485 damage per skill use. (It would do significantly more damage in PVE).

I do not usually count confusion in damage potential of builds because only really bad players will spam skills once a spike of confusion is sent at them.

I’m not sure how you are getting quite that high…though I suppose it is possible if you have 25 stack sigil, utility buff and food buff and possibly some infusions.

Of course if you look back at my original post (I cut it to make the post character limit) I was the one that quoted 9k as max dps for condition users. Which was the point. Max dps for power users is ~12-13k dps. And that is real achievable dps, not the imaginary dps that we are using here.

Personally as a necro, I have NEVER seen my bleeds go above 4k per tick. I would love to see kitten of someone actually managing that. It might be possible with the VW buffs on a solo husk champ, maybe? Of course no class that I know of can keep 100% uptime of all those conditions at once. as a necro I can get to the 25 bleed cap in bursts, but the average is ~19. I also have very limited access to burning, and am capped at 5 stacks of torment even with the sigil. I can get 100% poison uptime, though.

But in the end, even just removing the cap would be a monumental achievement for condition users, as we would at least be competitive in the game instead of dead weight. If we get additional changes as well then that would be even better. I think giving conditions the ability to crit in some manner would solve most of the problems.

+200 condi trait on scepter (optional) and +10% of tougness converted into condition damage in every PU build. + some poor mesmers use rune of undead which gives +7% of toughness converted into condition damage