Guild Wars 2

I’m not saying it IS doing this. I’m legitimately asking, curious whether others think this may be true.

I ask the question because, first of all, the Revenant: isn’t getting much skill selection from what we have seen. Weapon sets, and two legendaries which pretty much seem to fill slots 6-10 for you.

Second of all: it was that you could mix and match traits from several lines. Now, you get three. Or, two and an elite specialization. So I can essentially have three trees fully chosen, not 6 that I can pick and choose (to some extent anyway)

As such, it concerns me; it looks to me at first glance that we are having our build choices reduced for all classes, and very little choice for the Revenant at all.

But I’m not saying I’m right here, and I’d love to be proven wrong. So tell me, what do you think about this?

Right now, “build diversity” means “select the damage increasing traits so that you are using the exact same build as everyone else”.

Due to the way they are changing traits, it seems like there will be a LOT more build options now since we aren’t going to be shoehorned into taking the same selection as everyone else in order to get max DPS out of it.

HoT is destroying useless diversity so that there can be balance.

Yeah, it seems linear on appearance only, but they have yet to cover Elite specs so I’m saving my judgement until then. It’s not as cookie cutter as you think it is, but whether those builds are good or kitten garbage we shall see.

Morfedel.4165:

I’m not saying it IS doing this. I’m legitimately asking, curious whether others think this may be true.

I ask the question because, first of all, the Revenant: isn’t getting much skill selection from what we have seen. Weapon sets, and two legendaries which pretty much seem to fill slots 6-10 for you.

Second of all: it was that you could mix and match traits from several lines. Now, you get three. Or, two and an elite specialization. So I can essentially have three trees fully chosen, not 6 that I can pick and choose (to some extent anyway)

As such, it concerns me; it looks to me at first glance that we are having our build choices reduced for all classes, and very little choice for the Revenant at all.

But I’m not saying I’m right here, and I’d love to be proven wrong. So tell me, what do you think about this?

If you want to get really technical, there is still an insane amount of build diversity possible. Let’s look at the numbers:

You need to pick 3 of the 5 trait lines. There are 10 different trait line combinations you can make from this requirement. For each trait line you choose, you must pick 1 adept, 1 master, and 1 grand master trait, each of 3. What you essentially have are 10*3^9 total possible build options.

Now, take what we currently have. We’ll use a 6/6/2 build for comparison, as it’s fairly common and provides the closest similar structure. You have 6 adept choices * 9 master choices (masters + adepts remaining) * 11 grand master choices (grand masters + masters remaining + adepts remaining) * 2 trait lines filled * 10 possible combinations of two filled trait lines * 3 remaining possible trait lines * 6 possible adept traits in that 3rd line. Right off the bat, you can see this is very confusing comparatively.

Comparing the numbers:
HoT – 196,830 build options
Now – 213,840 build options

We really aren’t losing many options. What we are losing are multiple instances of traits that are outright terrible or belong in a different trait line. There’s no doubt that almost 100% of the builds generated in both structures are either useless or less optimal, but the fact is that diversity is hardly affected (9.2% reduction in total options). Never mind the fact that your stat points are no longer bound to trait lines so now you’ll be able to take the more defensive trait lines while not hampering your damage so much.

Killing build diversity? No…not any more than the meta does, if you think about it.

Does it reduce the overall number of options? Just based on the math yes, there will be fewer total options. Doesn’t necessarily mean anything though.

mtpelion.4562:

Right now, “build diversity” means “select the damage increasing traits so that you are using the exact same build as everyone else”.

Due to the way they are changing traits, it seems like there will be a LOT more build options now since we aren’t going to be shoehorned into taking the same selection as everyone else in order to get max DPS out of it.

Not fully. Yes damage traits are a big thing, but currently for example you have D/F, S+LH, and Staff Ele’s all being very viable. D/F has the most utility and generally the best in yoru standard PUG where might isn’t coming. Staff is great, best damage, but lacks the might application and group support. S+LH is the best for might but hard to use and best for organized groups.

Each has a purpose.

With the update we’ll likely see S+LH fall off because the damage is nerfed in multiple ways. D/F the same, nerfed down. Staff…buffed, so the gap will be even greater and it’ll be hard to justify using anything else.

That’s where we’re losing diversity for the most part.

We’re seeing the same with guardian. Currently GS as one weapon set of course, then it’s Sword as main damage baseline, Mace pulls in when you need blocks/extra support or super quick burns, and then scepter is top on large hit boxes. Focus is primary offhand, but torch comes in sometimes. Hammer for support. Only Shield and Staff are really outliers, and will remain so. With the changes It’ll be Mace/GS/Hammer only, and still Focus/maybe torch for offhand, eliminating 2 weapons from use.

I think the trait selection for the most part is great, seems to have freed up some options, making tradeoffs in many places not as extreme to open up utility options vs pure damage options. Lots of good things about it, but there are some areas where it’s really hurt diversity, and the weapons for Ele/Guard I think fit that.

runeblade.7514:

HoT is destroying useless diversity so that there can be balance.

- Presenting the Banana Split Analogy -

Once upon a time one could have a banana split with a useless but glorious diversity of items like nuts and cherries and pineapple chunks and whipped topping and chocolate or caramel sauce, and of course a banana and some ice cream. Alas! Some felt this was unbalanced, and so…

Changes were wrought! And now the banana split consists of a banana and maybe, if you’re lucky, some ice cream. But it will be better, you see, because it’s balanced.

Or not.

People keep saying it will be balanced. People don’t know it will be balanced, any more than the people saying it will be awful know it will be awful, but least the people saying it will be awful have a year’s worth of awful precedent upon which to base their opinions.

Comparing it to 6/6/2 is unfair, because the main complain is the lost of the 4 lines builds. I think the combinatory is much much much more inclined towards the actual mechanic. So YES, you are losing much more POSSIBLE combinations.

The key concept here is that POSSIBLE doesn’t mean VIABLE. (Viable as builds that are fun, useful or interesting to play, even if they are not optimal). Most builds you could make actually are not viable. They are just crap.

So.
“Is HoT Destroying Build Diversity?”
The answer doesn’t have to do with quantity as much as it has to do with quality.

If the new system make viable more and different builds, then the answer should be a solid NO, as it will actually IMPROVE the build diversity.

If the new system just destroys the old not so meta builds (Like the sustained clones for mesmer or the FT engie) offering nothing in exchange the answer will be a sad YES.

Right now, IMO, it looks more close to the second case. I don’t see how Anet can add diversity when they are vanishing interesting and fun builds and forcing people to play only in predetermined ways. I hope I’m wrong (Like I was about the hobosacks), but somehow i don’t think I am.

I feel there will be 2 or three common builds for each profession, that will be very balanced and truly different. Every other idea will be pure steaming crap, and in the end you will see even less diversity than today.

We will not know until Elite specialisations are released.

Ardid.7203:

Comparing it to 6/6/2 is unfair, because the main complain is the lost of the 4 lines builds. I think the combinatory is much much much more inclined towards the actual mechanic. So YES, you are losing much more POSSIBLE combinations.

The key concept here is that POSSIBLE doesn’t mean VIABLE. (Viable as builds that are fun, useful or interesting to play, even if they are not optimal). Most builds you could make actually are not viable. They are just crap.

So.
“Is HoT Destroying Build Diversity?”
The answer doesn’t have to do with quantity as much as it has to do with quality.

If the new system make viable more and different builds, then the answer should be a solid NO, as it will actually IMPROVE the build diversity.

If the new system just destroys the old not so meta builds (Like the sustained clones for mesmer or the FT engie) offering nothing in exchange the answer will be a sad YES.

Right now, IMO, it looks more close to the second case. I don’t see how Anet can add diversity when they are vanishing interesting and fun builds and forcing people to play only in predetermined ways. I hope I’m wrong (Like I was about the hobosacks), but somehow i don’t think I am.

I feel there will be 2 or three common builds for each profession, that will be very balanced and truly different. Every other idea will be pure steaming crap, and in the end you will see even less diversity than today.

Looking at Engi I see quite a few viable builds. 66006 typical PVE meta, 66600 for support build, 66060 for personal defense build (Lupi Solo build).

In that I see variations of the traits, Dodge roll blast is AWESOME, but it’s going to compete with Shrapnel which is always solid damage, and Mortar Kit trait which could be very nice.

Damge when vuln is going to be default, but if you go with a bomb build (which should be nice with innate radius change) short fuse may be pretty huge as taht delay is pretty sucky.

I see quite a bit of variation already popping up in ideas. Those for Engi. Then for Guard Hammer 66060 max dps, 60066 for utility. Mace/Focus + GS with 66006 and 60066 builds both being competitive. And torch might even make a showing on single targes with a fireball tossed every 6s + it’s own cooldown. Just throwing fireballs all day!

Ehh there’s still some pesky 3 week old tuna and powdered milk hiding in some corners.

EEEEEwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww! Pineapple chunks!

If you believe ‘diversity’ is a list of 3 builds that exist above a magic line you can move up and down at will to fit your current argument, then HoT is increasing diversity because you can pretend you’re not going to move that line to again exclude everything but what you feel is the post-HoT top three and say “oh, after HoT hits I’ll set my magic line so now there are 5 builds above it — woo hoo diversity”.

If you’re one of those people who understand the word ‘diversity’ has an actual meaning that encompasses all possible permutations that don’t crash the second you leave a city-safe zone then you know that the design space of the game if about to experience an apocalypse that will annihilate 99% of the game’s diversity. And since the reality has ALWAYS BEEN that new top builds emerge over time as people explore those deep and vast wilds of possibility, the future meta-builds of the game are being murdered in their sleep in favor of the blatantly obvious builds left in the wake of this change.

MiniEquine.6014:

Comparing the numbers:
HoT – 196,830 build options
Now – 213,840 build options

Those number don’t seem like they can possibly be right. Right now, each line has 4 more traits, and we have the ability to put adept traits into master/grandmaster slots, and master traits into grandmaster slots. There is also the ability to partially invest into more than 3 lines.

The new system limits each tier of a line to only 3 choices. If I’m figuring that right, it’s only 27 possible combinations within a line. The current system has more than double the trait combinations possible per line using only the adapt and master tiers. Add in the grandmaster slot, which has a 11 options on its own (13 traits, minus the 2 already in chosen in lower tiers), and that single trait line probably has more options than all lines combined under the new system.

One of those numbers is right, the other is off by over two orders of magnitude.

•Right now a single trait line take to 6 points has 418 possible arrangements of traits. Ignoring anything other than 6/6/2 set-ups (and there are many other combinations that have well regarded examples) that gives 31,450,320 traits combinations per class.

•The new system allows a total of 27 arrangements per line. If you like two adept level traits, tough, you can’t have them. Ever. Being locked to exactly 6/6/6 means there is a total of 10 possible unique line combinations bringing the total number of trait set-ups per class to 196,830 (27^3×10). Add another 196,830 for each elite line they introduce.

•At HoT launch including the one elite spec-line per class we are going to drop down to one-eightieth (1/80 or 1.25%) of our current range of choices.

Looking at my 2 favorite professions (engi/guard) I feel like i’ll be using more variations of traits than before. The sad part is I’ll be using less variations on weaponry on my guard.

Overall I’d say it looks like an improvement so far, but it’s far from perfect with a lot of just bad traits, and lacking the love towards all possible weapons.

There might be less combinations, but I feel like we’re forced to make more meaningful choices, leaving more good options on the table. 66006, 66060, 60066 all very viable for PVE meta guard. 66600, 66060, and 66006 all look pretty great for PVE Engi.

Here’s the thing.
Is the total number of possible combination dropping? Yes.

Where all the possible combinations viable? No.

Where they easy to balance? kitten no.

What they are doing is giving us more meaningful choices, easier building for us and easier balance for them.

I don’t get why people feeaks out for loosing combinations when everyone was running with the same 10 viable ones. That’s hypocrisy. With the new system the number of viable build will most likely increase!

Nike.2631:

One of those numbers is right, the other is off by over two orders of magnitude.

•Right now a single trait line take to 6 points has 418 possible arrangements of traits. Ignoring anything other than 6/6/2 set-ups (and there are many other combinations that have well regarded examples) that gives 31,450,320 traits combinations per class.

•The new system allows a total of 27 arrangements per line. If you like two adept level traits, tough, you can’t have them. Ever. Being locked to exactly 6/6/6 means there is a total of 10 possible unique line combinations bringing the total number of trait set-ups per class to 196,830 (27^3×10). Add another 196,830 for each elite line they introduce.

•At HoT launch including the one elite spec-line per class we are going to drop down to one-eightieth (1/80 or 1.25%) of our current range of choices.

Build diversity is getting reduced to a tiny fraction of what it was, but all I have to say about it is…..so? While its impossible to calculate just how many of those 30 million builds are actually useful for any given situation that exists in the game, its probably the same/near the same number as the new system that has only 196,830 choices. If you consider that you no longer have to use a specific trait line to optimize stat choices now, then the new system of build diversity could arguably be better, and actually be more diverse than the old system.

Well, in Necro’s case, they couldn’t be bothered with getting some new ingredients from store, so they just took the rotten meat, leftover fish and the occasional chunk of banana or pineapple and put it all in a mixer.

none.9681:

Well, in Necro’s case, they couldn’t be bothered with getting some new ingredients from store, so they just took the rotten meat, leftover fish and the occasional chunk of banana or pineapple and put it all in a mixer.

Thing is the Necro is severely underestimated in my opinion. If you look at the necro from a survivability point of view rather then a DPS point of view the necro is a powerhouse.

It has the most HP, it has an extra life bar, it has an elite that boosts his health for a while. It (at least used to haven’t checked the new changes yet) to have essentially perma Regen + now with parasitic contagion you also get extra hp with conditions that a necro excels at spreading around. So yeah hopefully these new changes will stir people towards these exotic but delicious flavour that a lot of people ignored that made for excellent necro banana splits.

Nike.2631:

One of those numbers is right, the other is off by over two orders of magnitude.

•Right now a single trait line take to 6 points has 418 possible arrangements of traits. Ignoring anything other than 6/6/2 set-ups (and there are many other combinations that have well regarded examples) that gives 31,450,320 traits combinations per class.

Erm, how did you get 418? 6 * 9 * 11 = 594 permutations (which accounts for the order they are in so that’s incorrect to begin with) (6 adept * ((6 adept – 1 choice) + 4 master) * ((10 adept/master – 2 choices) + 3 grandmaster)

So in order to count the combinations correctly (or more correctly? )
There’s 4 different ways to pick traits:
all adept: 20 combinations (5 * 4 or 6 * 5 * 4 / 3 * 2 * 1)
2 adept 1 master: 60 combinations ( (6 * 5 / 2) * 4 )
1 adept 2 master: 36 combinations (4 × 3 / 2) * 6)
1 adept 1 master 1 grandmaster: 72 combinations (6 * 4 * 3)
Which is a total of 188 combinations (that is at least if you fill all major traits in, unless you want to discuss how not picking a trait is a combination as well, then it’s 270)

Then the math for 6/6/2 would be (I think?): 188*188*6 * 30 = 6.361.920
The 30 is the possible combinations of 6/6/2s you have: (5 * 4 / 2) * 3 or 5 * (4 * 3 / 2)

But I might be doing something wrong here.

•The new system allows a total of 27 arrangements per line. If you like two adept level traits, tough, you can’t have them. Ever. Being locked to exactly 6/6/6 means there is a total of 10 possible unique line combinations bringing the total number of trait set-ups per class to 196,830 (27^3×10). Add another 196,830 for each elite line they introduce.

At least that seems correct, yes.

mrstealth.6701:

MiniEquine.6014:

Comparing the numbers:
HoT – 196,830 build options
Now – 213,840 build options

Those number don’t seem like they can possibly be right. Right now, each line has 4 more traits, and we have the ability to put adept traits into master/grandmaster slots, and master traits into grandmaster slots. There is also the ability to partially invest into more than 3 lines.

The new system limits each tier of a line to only 3 choices. If I’m figuring that right, it’s only 27 possible combinations within a line. The current system has more than double the trait combinations possible per line using only the adapt and master tiers. Add in the grandmaster slot, which has a 11 options on its own (13 traits, minus the 2 already in chosen in lower tiers), and that single trait line probably has more options than all lines combined under the new system.

For a current 6/6/2 combination, my numbers are correct. If you do the math out like I explained above, it will make sense. Each of the new lines has 27 combinations, yes. Now you have 27 combinations in 3 different lines (27^3 = 3^9). Then, there are still 10 different combinations of any 3 trait lines out of 5. (1 line of 5 is 5 options, 2 lines of 5 is 10 options, 3 lines of 5 is 10 options, 4 lines of 5 is 5 options, 5 lines of 5 is 1 option.)

Trait order does not count in terms of options, so we can ignore that. Now, each line currently has more traits, but adding two additional traits to our pool significantly increases the spread.

Note: The new system will still provide less options in total, this is definitely the case. However, the number of options that it is brought down to is definitely 196,830 different combinations in the new system (10 trait line combinations * 27 trait combinations per line ^ 3 trait lines). This is far from few options, even viable ones.

Build diversity will depend on encounter design, something which we’ve only had a glimpse of with the Wyvern fight.

MiniEquine.6014:

For a current 6/6/2 combination, my numbers are correct. If you do the math out like I explained above, it will make sense.

Your numbers for the “now” part are still incorrect. You simply added two amounts of combinations together without taking into account of all the different combinations of those combinations. (Oh dear) You did exactly the same thing for the new system (27*27*27) but no (594 *594) )

Not to mention that the 6 * 9 * 11 part is incorrect as well as it doesn’t take into account that it doesnt matter what order you pick the adept or master work traits in. (IE.: I, III, IV is the same as IV, III, I )

So no, that number is not correct at all.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Erm, how did you get 418?

There are 6 master traits, not 4.

Upon review I did overcount by 20 (398 rather than 418). Thanks for making me stare at it more closely .

Not that I’d like to beat a dead horse, but I’ll add my 2 cents. Yes they’re destroying build diversity, but that’s only because of the false sense of choice we currently have. To be competitive your choices are extremely limited to a few builds. By doing what they’re doing it allows for much easier balancing. Something anet has had trouble with since GW1.

Now whether or not they take advantage of the opportunity and effectively balance the classes is another story.

MiniEquine.6014:

mrstealth.6701:

MiniEquine.6014:

Comparing the numbers:
HoT – 196,830 build options
Now – 213,840 build options

Those number don’t seem like they can possibly be right. Right now, each line has 4 more traits, and we have the ability to put adept traits into master/grandmaster slots, and master traits into grandmaster slots. There is also the ability to partially invest into more than 3 lines.

The new system limits each tier of a line to only 3 choices. If I’m figuring that right, it’s only 27 possible combinations within a line. The current system has more than double the trait combinations possible per line using only the adapt and master tiers. Add in the grandmaster slot, which has a 11 options on its own (13 traits, minus the 2 already in chosen in lower tiers), and that single trait line probably has more options than all lines combined under the new system.

For a current 6/6/2 combination, my numbers are correct. If you do the math out like I explained above, it will make sense. Each of the new lines has 27 combinations, yes. Now you have 27 combinations in 3 different lines (27^3 = 3^9). Then, there are still 10 different combinations of any 3 trait lines out of 5. (1 line of 5 is 5 options, 2 lines of 5 is 10 options, 3 lines of 5 is 10 options, 4 lines of 5 is 5 options, 5 lines of 5 is 1 option.)

Trait order does not count in terms of options, so we can ignore that. Now, each line currently has more traits, but adding two additional traits to our pool significantly increases the spread.

Note: The new system will still provide less options in total, this is definitely the case. However, the number of options that it is brought down to is definitely 196,830 different combinations in the new system (10 trait line combinations * 27 trait combinations per line ^ 3 trait lines). This is far from few options, even viable ones.

You are correct about order of traits, but the numbers are still not right. And assuming 6/6/2 falsely reduces the number of options in the current system. We are free to spread points however we wish.

Removing options that are just reorders of the same traits, there are still 418 combinations within a line, if you max it to 6 points. That goes to 462 if you take into consideration investing just 2/4/6 points into a line. And there are even further possibilities by investing 1/3/5 points.

These changes will make some aspects of balancing easier, but it will also add some new challenges to it. It ends up being a trade of gaining some new balance options, while sacrificing some current ones.

Removing powerful cross-spec trait combos will be harder now. In the current system, if a combo across multiple lines needs to be broken up, in many cases this can be done by moving 1 or more of the traits to a higher tier. The new system will more likely require that one or more of the traits to be nerfed or moved to different spec. Two options that are more likely to cause collateral damage to other builds. Of course, the number of available cross-spec combos will reduced by only being able to invest in 3 lines.

What the new system does make easier is removing the possibility of combing two powerful traits from the same line. If two traits in a line are found to be too powerful together, the combo is removed if you put them in the same tier. Under the current system, this only works with grandmaster traits.

Overall, the new system should be easier to balance, but it’s not without its own unique challenges.

The only builds that will be lost are the Celestial style builds that spread points across all trait lines. But what we lose from not having these builds, I believe we will more than make up for with new build options. Now traits are not tied to stats we will be more free to choose other trait lines we may have avoided due to wanting the extra stats.

As to the food analogy, here is a version I think is more accurate to what Anet is trying to do:

The banana split company originally allowed you to mix and match any number of flavours, so you could make many many types of banana split. However, many of the flavours, while entertaining to make, really lacked in flavour and in some cases were plain disgusting. So they decided to limit the amount of flavours you could add to the base banana split to 3 choices, but made each choice more flavoursum and removed the less tasty options. This increased and improved the variety and taste of all possible flavour combinations, and in turn reduced/removed the possibility of the less tasty combinations.

Having many hundreds/thousands of options is not always a good thing, especially when it comes to balancing a combat system. Sometimes you need to limit things to improve things. Only time will tell if they have got it right, or improved upon the existing system. But from what I have read so far it looks like they are heading in the right direction in my opinion.

I think the new system should either keep the ability to partially invest in a line, or allow taking additional lower tier traits in place of higher ones. The easier way to give more options and still maintain balance, would probably be the former. Let us choose how far we go into a specialization line. Perhaps keeping the full investment required for elite specializations, as it does make a little more sense for them.

This 3 trait line thing is very good. Now you spend all your points for damage, after the xpac you pick 1 for your dmg, 1 for survive and 1 for the greater good. They eliminate a lot of useless things and gives you a little freedom, because you can select more as you esentialy need

I can only see this change as a good one, seriously would you rather have 100 meaningless choices or 10 that actually has an impact on your gameplay.

As long as they dont completely bork the whole thing, limiting the options on what trait combinations you can have will mean that each trait can have that much more impact on the build without breaking the whole thing.

I mean how much of build diversity is it to have a trait that makes you do X% more damage under a condition that you will be able to fulfill without doing anything?
they still exist in the new traits but they are way fewer in numbers.

A thread about game balance has never made me this hungry before.

McWolfy.5924:

This 3 trait line thing is very good. Now you spend all your points for damage, after the xpac you pick 1 for your dmg, 1 for survive and 1 for the greater good. They eliminate a lot of useless things and gives you a little freedom, because you can select more as you esentialy need

I see it being more of spending 2 for damage, then using the 3rd to still get as much more damage as you can along with some support/survivability.

Basically, a whole lot of the 6/6/x/x/x type builds we have now, but with less variation within that.

mrstealth.6701:

McWolfy.5924:

This 3 trait line thing is very good. Now you spend all your points for damage, after the xpac you pick 1 for your dmg, 1 for survive and 1 for the greater good. They eliminate a lot of useless things and gives you a little freedom, because you can select more as you esentialy need

I see it being more of spending 2 for damage, then using the 3rd to still get as much more damage as you can along with some support/survivability.

Basically, a whole lot of the 6/6/x/x/x type builds we have now, but with less variation within that.

Not really so set in stone.

Look at guard. 60066 is the theorized new meta. With the longer symbol duration in honor it’s a must have, virtues of course for support is a must have for the guard. So we’re going to choose a Damage line (zeal) a damage/support line (honor), and a support line (virtues).

However, rough math says that 66006 will be about the same damage maybe slightly higher, but less support for the most part (blind spam is nice).

And then max damage I think may actually be a 66060 hammer build, but you lose all the support of virtues bumping out of the “meta” most likely and into more niche situations where you don’t need your support tools.

Engi I think will be 66XXX, just hard to say no to the new explosives line (so many good possible traits for both support and damage), and Firearms is just damage based stuff (offensive support in it as well).

I think the diversity within more “optimized” PVE builds is on the rise for some professions. The tradeoffs to grab some different utility stuff is no longer as large as it used to be. For example grabbing fortified Turrets to help with reflects on Engi used to require dropping firearms tree, that’s no longer the case. Grabbing experimental turrets to get some fury for the group if it’s lacking, same thing, no longer out of the realm of reasonable. Blast Heals will be interesting to see. Overall I feel like I have up to a dozen combinations of traits that will all be good options to fit different situations. Right now I feel like I have maybe half a dozen variations of 66002 and 66020, and I never really have the option to use a lot of the utility because it simply isn’t worth the loss in damage, it’s too big a loss.

There are some issues with the change still, but overall I think diversity for me has gone up.

Who kittening cares? Changes are coming. You can’t stop it. All you can do is adapt. So how about we stop talking about whether this is GOOD or BAD like we’re school children and start talking about how to make the best of it?

Test.8734:

runeblade.7514:

Test.8734:

runeblade.7514:

and other things that goes well with the ice cream. Because any cook knows it is silly to include trash ingredients into an ice cream.

The great thing about your metaphor is that, by your own logic, ArenaNet happens to be the silly cook who included trash ingredients into an ice cream – they are the ones who designed the old traits you are now comparing to rotten meat.

What makes you think that ArenaNet isn’t going to remove most choices and just give you a “banana plus ice cream” and a “banana plus rotten meat” menu?

The new specialization would be:

Banana plus ice cream, Cherry plus ice cream, or Nutella icecream. Three different ice cream taste. None of that banana plus rotten meat.

Again, what makes so sure there’s no more banana plus rotten meat? ArenaNet were the ones who added the rotten meat in the first place, were they not? I wouldn’t be surprised if the new specializations became:

Banana plus rotten ice cream, Liver plus ice cream, or Meat ice cream. Three different ice cream tastes. None of that banana plus nutella ice cream.

A trait has to compete against the other two traits. It doesn’t have to compete against 9 other traits on the same line.

If it sucks, then it is quite easy to make it better instead of nerfing the other trait.

Jerus.4350:

Not really so set in stone.

Look at guard. 60066 is the theorized new meta. With the longer symbol duration in honor it’s a must have, virtues of course for support is a must have for the guard. So we’re going to choose a Damage line (zeal) a damage/support line (honor), and a support line (virtues).

Well of course that’s not going to always apply. But the changes are certainly not going to make everyone automatically start taking more support options than they are now.

As for guardian, I’m not sure what I’ll end up using. I’m going to miss being able to spend a single trait point to get boons on virtue use. And I don’t think I’ll be using the Virtues spec much in pve.

How much diversity is there now? That’s difficult to measure, although we can make a stab at it by looking at popular build & theorycrafting sites. For high DPS, there is little diversity, but that’s true by definition: it’s very hard to create skills etc that make it possible for more than 1-2 builds/prof to be “highest DPS.” When you look at highest team DPS, there’s also little room for choice.

After all the new changes go into effect, this is still likely to be true unless there are also changes to foes and especially to NPC AI. There will still be a tiny number of “highest DPS builds” for individual and group play. The specifics might change (in terms of total damage or how you get it), but the diversity is likely to be the same, in that niche.

Outside of high DPS, the current game has a ton of theoretical diversity. But in practice, many of those builds are silly. At the extremes, you can spec for reduced cooldown on swords without equipping a sword, reduced falling damage (where there are no survivable falls), etc.

If ANet does a good job of pruning the useless traits and balancing each line so that all traits at each level are comparable, then diversity of useful builds should increase overall. If they do a poor job, then I don’t think we’ll lose all that much.

tl;dr I doubt if “actual” diversity is going to change that much after the community has played around with the new system.

mrstealth.6701:

Jerus.4350:

Not really so set in stone.

Look at guard. 60066 is the theorized new meta. With the longer symbol duration in honor it’s a must have, virtues of course for support is a must have for the guard. So we’re going to choose a Damage line (zeal) a damage/support line (honor), and a support line (virtues).

Well of course that’s not going to always apply. But the changes are certainly not going to make everyone automatically start taking more support options than they are now.

As for guardian, I’m not sure what I’ll end up using. I’m going to miss being able to spend a single trait point to get boons on virtue use. And I don’t think I’ll be using the Virtues spec much in pve.

Master of Consecrations is the huge one, Absolute Resolution is quite nice as well, and Indomitable Courage can be good (though will likely mainly grab permeating wrath or battle presence).

People aren’t going to bring more support than they do now, but now you can’t partially invest to grab a few support adepts/masters and then go back to DPS, you have to choose entire lines.

Guardians in Dungeons/Fractals almost always want Master of Consecrations making virtues really a must have for that content, now you can’t just slot 2 and call it a day.

(MoC allows you to do the WoR → SotA at 22/23s recharge on wall → Wall pops as shield falls for a total of like 36s reflects)

So what I hear some people saying is, this is not destroying diversity, except for the diversity for builds that suck?

I for one like experimentation. And what was meta today wasn’t a year ago, and may not be next year. Experimentation sometimes creates new more exciting builds.

So please don’t go around acting like they are just removing builds that “suck.” You never know if someone finds a combination that ends up being excellent.

Except, of course, that entire set of math is changing.

Killing build diversity? We don’t really have it now. We have the illusion of diversity while everyone shoves themselves into half a dozen cookie cutters, especially when pugging in dungeons. (Heaven forbid you try to not run a zerker when playing as a ranger).

I’m really hoping that more supportive/tanky builds become PvE viable with HoT.

MattyP.6954:

Killing build diversity? We don’t really have it now. We have the illusion of diversity while everyone shoves themselves into half a dozen cookie cutters, especially when pugging in dungeons. (Heaven forbid you try to not run a zerker when playing as a ranger).

I’m really hoping that more supportive/tanky builds become PvE viable with HoT.

Supportive is a huge thing already. Tanky will never become good though, you’re meant to actively defend yourself and stripping passive defenses to build up offenses will always be preferred assuming you can survive.

The meta currently destroys the build diversity as ppl flock to builds that complete a certain task. Meta will also destroy any build diversity of the new system for exactly the same reason. Everyone in pve will still run their zerker build.

When a dev changes their game this drastically, you have to wonder if they even know what direction they want to go. HoT shows lack of direction and focus by Anet.

Enjoy your dumb down version of gw2. I won’t be buying this xpac.

You know, when arena.net changed it, so you could no longer play the glorious 14/14/14/14/14 builds, build diversity also decreased from a strict mathematical standpoint.
As my example shows, how unhelpful this is, now for some discussion on practical builds:

The most important point here is condensing skill improving traits into two traits at most. There’s still stuff to be said about traits with synergy, but the traits specifically improving certain utility skills have been cut down to at most two per type of skill.
What this does: You don’t have to go all-in anymore, if you want to use a certain type of skill.
I think, builds with a reasonable mix of different traited utilities will emerge. I can see people wanting to trait for two types of utility skills and grabbing the best from both worlds. With the old system, that would leave the rest of your build bare bone. With the current, it merely makes you choose two(in special cases even only one) specializations out of the three you can choose based on what utility skills you want to use.
I like the concept, as it gets rid of the illusion of choice.
Currently, you have 6 adept traits to choose from, but you know, 4 of them are rubbish.

I’ve never let publicly viewed metas influence my builds. I play what I want, and screw the meta.

And I’ve generally been just fine.

FrizzFreston.5290:

MiniEquine.6014:

For a current 6/6/2 combination, my numbers are correct. If you do the math out like I explained above, it will make sense.

Your numbers for the “now” part are still incorrect. You simply added two amounts of combinations together without taking into account of all the different combinations of those combinations. (Oh dear) You did exactly the same thing for the new system (27*27*27) but no (594 *594) )

Not to mention that the 6 * 9 * 11 part is incorrect as well as it doesn’t take into account that it doesnt matter what order you pick the adept or master work traits in. (IE.: I, III, IV is the same as IV, III, I )

So no, that number is not correct at all.

A couple of things. First, please don’t use condescending “oh dears”. Explain your math or don’t bother. Now, onto the meat.

I took a look at the current system and, to my surprise, found that certain combinations produced far greater results in terms of number. For example, 6/4/2/2 produced a whopping 15,396,480 different combinations (nearly half of all possible). In all, there were 32,965,584 different combinations with the current system, but you’re right, this does not factor in repeat traits combinations but in a different order. For a filled line of traits in the current system, I have found 233 unique combinations. I used the following:

S(i=1 to 6 [i] (S(j=i+1 to 10 [j](S(k=i+2 to 13 [k])))) = # of combinations

That’s just a rough formula I used that starts at the lowest combination of traits (1,2,3) and works its way to the top with #1 (up to 6) less than #2 (up to 10) less than #3 (up to 13).

However, I did not “simply add two amounts” together. Probability is multiplicative, so I’m not sure where you thought I did that.

I don’t know where you got 594*594 from. The 27^3 is correct for the number of trait combinations in any three trait lines. If you think it’s not, please show your work. I already showed mine up above, and I’m not the only one coming to these numbers.

Edit: this forum does not like Sigma.

Jerus.4350:

MattyP.6954:

Killing build diversity? We don’t really have it now. We have the illusion of diversity while everyone shoves themselves into half a dozen cookie cutters, especially when pugging in dungeons. (Heaven forbid you try to not run a zerker when playing as a ranger).

I’m really hoping that more supportive/tanky builds become PvE viable with HoT.

Supportive is a huge thing already. Tanky will never become good though, you’re meant to actively defend yourself and stripping passive defenses to build up offenses will always be preferred assuming you can survive.

Supportive builds are common in PvP and WvWvW but are almost completely absent in PvE content (Silverwastes is actually an exception to this, largely because it behaves a lot like WvWvW). Running a world boss? Go Zerker. Running with Pugs in a Dungeon? Go Zerker.

I’ve been kicked from a pug group for running a condi build on my engineer—haven’t even tried running one with my shout warrior.

MattyP.6954:

Jerus.4350:

MattyP.6954:

Killing build diversity? We don’t really have it now. We have the illusion of diversity while everyone shoves themselves into half a dozen cookie cutters, especially when pugging in dungeons. (Heaven forbid you try to not run a zerker when playing as a ranger).

I’m really hoping that more supportive/tanky builds become PvE viable with HoT.

Supportive is a huge thing already. Tanky will never become good though, you’re meant to actively defend yourself and stripping passive defenses to build up offenses will always be preferred assuming you can survive.

Supportive builds are common in PvP and WvWvW but are almost completely absent in PvE content (Silverwastes is actually an exception to this, largely because it behaves a lot like WvWvW). Running a world boss? Go Zerker. Running with Pugs in a Dungeon? Go Zerker.

I’ve been kicked from a pug group for running a condi build on my engineer—haven’t even tried running one with my shout warrior.

Stop for a second. Go back and look at the game and try to understand it. What is support? Ask yourself that question.

Support is not about healing, support is about buffs and blocks and negation of effects. That’s support in this game.

Right now the meta for Guardian in most dungeons is 45005, why 5 in virtues? You could get more damage running a 66200 build by a good amount, or 46202 w/ unscathed contender. But why is the meta so deep into virtues? SUPPORT! Master of Consecrations allows you to chain reflects with WoR and SotA for like 36s strait, HUGE addition. Then what about the other major trait in Virtues? It’ll bounce, basic one is Absolute resolution for the 3 condi instant cleanse on use of Virtue of Resolve… great trait, Indomitable courage is also used for the extra stability in some situations, and then slotting Unscathed contender can be a nice little damage boost if the other two aren’t going to be used.

So no, you’re absolutely wrong. Zerker is NOT a build it’s GEAR, Gear does NOT help support much at all. You have Healing power which scales horribly on purpose and that’s it. Vit/Toughness do not contribute to support. These “support” builds people talk about are often more tanky builds than actual support builds focusing on self preservation. I hear things like AH soldiers guard being called supportive, well it’s not, it’s a selfish tanky build that doesn’t help your group at all unless you properly use your tools in the same way a zerker guard would. If a person in Zealot gear came in saying they ran support, I could respect that, but that’s not what most people who run “support” are doing, they’re just being selfish.

ZERKER IS GEAR NOT A BUILD! get it through your head. Support is not heals but more the tools you use to boost your team and help them avoid damage. Learn to play GW2, this is not WoW or any other MMO, it’s a different concept, there is no trinity.

I don’t usually like being so blunt and rude, but god it’s getting old. People really should undertand this game by now, it’s not overly complex. And if you don’t know why you got kicked from a group for running condi, then again, learn the game, though might be a waste at this point with condi stuff changing >.<