Guild Wars 2

AliamRationem.5172:

I love the HoT maps, but I’d love them more if I could just log in and play them any time. I recognize that they aren’t “dead”, but that isn’t my issue. I just want to play and the hard event timers combined with the LFG and megaserver systems create a scenario in which your only option for doing so is to show up at the correct time and use LFG.

That’s the biggest failing of HoT, in my opinion. Well, that and adventures. But at least those are somewhat optional. Unfortunately, this issue is simply a side-effect of the design. I wish there were a way around it, but they’ll probably just have to avoid this event setup in the future.

Heartily agree.

A Guild maybe the answer for you.
The LFG tool was a little messed up for a while- but I believe they fixed that in the recent patch.

I hope it isn’t. If it is, this game might not be for me anymore. I came in late though, because early pricing made me drop the game entirely. The amount of content just wasn’t worth the initial cost. They lost lots of people to that, and I doubt more than half of them are coming back.

I liked a lot of things about HoT, but the stuff in the hate column just outweigh it by quite a bit in both amount and intensity. TD is confusing and awful, and exploits shouldn’t be almost necessary for success on a boss that doesn’t give great rewards in the first place (triple trouble is more rewarding by far). The closing map bug that still isn’t fixed, adventures not being instanced, mastery points locked behind adventures(if I wanted to play another game, I’d play it), Legendary armor being gated by raids (I was previously really excited for legendary armor. I no longer am), the aforementioned being gated by such an extreme amount of raids (if I wanted to raid daily, I’d play an MMO that rewards you well for doing so, like I did for years, I have not been impressed by raid loot). Not really a fan of my added class either (Berserker). I like what I’ve seen of some of the others though.

Bloodstone Fen seems to be a departure from this, and I mostly enjoy that map. The only real glaring problems with Fen are the RNG rewards on bags (I actually lost money buying 100, leaving me wondering why I should bother collecting unbound magic. Though I do realize I’m likely the outlier), and the 9000000 mile rock throws. The latter needs to be toned down. It’s way overboard, and quite frankly I don’t even bother with the ground events because the white mantle is so heavy and annoying with their aggro ranges down there. People not even on my screen are pelting me with rocks while I am in stealth. The giant magic RNG traps are also pretty tedious when they just pop on top of you giving you no chance to avoid them, though that doesn’t happen often. They should just be inactive for a few seconds when they first pop, would fix those entirely.

Otherwise? Fen is a great map. It has tons of events, decent rewards, decent achievements that aren’t super annoying to get, very little downtime unless you want there to be some and port to the ship, entirely new mechanics, and I’m sure I’m forgetting a few things. Fix some of the annoyances and it would be the best in the game. More of that please.

I think it’s amusing that generally, Fen is found to be more acceptable than HoT is, though the mob difficulty is comparable, as is the vertical map layout. Could that be just due to the event density and ease to get around?

Despite the similarities to HoT, I have to say I enjoy Fen more and hope that whatever the future of GW2, it’s more like Fen than it is HoT … and certainly hope the future is not anything like Core Tyria.

@Aisling you don’t need exploits to complete the TD meta, nor do you need it to do the other metas. I’m fine with adventures and masteries being gated behind them, I don’t enjoy the adventures themselves being gated behind events in the maps. Its frustrating to pass by an adventure area while playing and not be able to play it because the event chain hasn’t progressed enough yet. Especially when I can walk right up but the NPC just won’t let me do the adventure yet.

Obtena.7952:

I think it’s amusing that generally, Fen is found to be more acceptable than HoT is, though the mob difficulty is comparable, as is the vertical map layout. Could that be just due to the event density and ease to get around?

Despite the similarities to HoT, I have to say I enjoy Fen more and hope that whatever the future of GW2, it’s more like Fen than it is HoT … and certainly hope the future is not anything like Core Tyria.

The problem with mob difficulty in AB and TD is that its much harder to get away from them. If you’re simply trying to get somewhere without stopping to fight every single thing in your path, you can easily get stopped by all the mobs with their cc effects. But in Bloodstone Fen, once you have continuous gliding you can simply jump off a ledge / on a mushroom in 90% of locations and go where you want to go. It’s almost like running on the ground in Core Tyria. Of course near the crater you have the stupid rock throwers, but I just avoid that area unless I need to do an event there.

A little off topic but I think that’s the point … you shouldn’t be able to just run your way through maps and avoid mobs. I mean, there is a reason Anet put them there in the first place. In fact in Fen, i think it’s worse because in HoT, you can kill those mobs. in Fen, killing those mobs doesn’t really ‘clear your path’ so to speak. Some of the non-avoidance methods in Fen can’t even be avoided … like random death bubbles, etc..

Obtena.7952:

A little off topic but I think that’s the point … you shouldn’t be able to just run your way through maps and avoid mobs. I mean, there is a reason Anet put them there in the first place. In fact in Fen, i think it’s worse because in HoT, you can kill those mobs. in Fen, killing those mobs doesn’t really ‘clear your path’ so to speak. Some of the non-avoidance methods in Fen can’t even be avoided … like random death bubbles, etc..

It is your opinion that we shouldn’t be able to ignore mobs at all. If my character is level 20, it shouldn’t have to fight it’s way through every mob in a level 1 area. And so on up the level range and gear / experience range.

If you’re character is level 20 and running through a level 1 area, it’s downscaled so those mobs aren’t as easy to ignore. There are also waypoints. Also, pocket raptors. etc …

What do these things have in common? They are design features Anet has included so you can’t just run through mobs and not fight them. So yes, I have my opinions, you have yours but the fact you can’t just run through mobs you don’t want to fight isn’t a problem and not just my opinion because it’s how the game was intentionally designed.

Obtena.7952:

A little off topic but I think that’s the point … you shouldn’t be able to just run your way through maps and avoid mobs. I mean, there is a reason Anet put them there in the first place. In fact in Fen, i think it’s worse because in HoT, you can kill those mobs. in Fen, killing those mobs doesn’t really ‘clear your path’ so to speak. Some of the non-avoidance methods in Fen can’t even be avoided … like random death bubbles, etc..

For myself, combat and exploration are the best parts of this game. I generally don’t mind taking my time to learn my way around in environments like HoT, and I tend to engage a lot more enemies than is strictly necessary in the process!

The game offers players a wide variety of abilities which may be used to navigate the world with minimal engagement. Certainly there are areas where it would be ill-advised to attempt a run through. Particularly if one intends to stop and engage something difficult at some point, it wouldn’t be beneficial to train extra enemies to your objective. But if getting from A to B without stopping to kill enemies is your goal, I can’t think of a class that isn’t equipped to do so in most cases.

HoT may have introduced more dangerous enemies and higher mob density, but they also gave us gliders (and maps designed to use them in!) which are a highly effective means of bypassing enemies. Even in BF, where the enemy gained the ability to attack us in the air, ANet provided the tools players need to handle these threats.

So, of course, I disagree that ANet intended us to fight everything (even if I personally consider that no chore at all!), but I don’t feel anything needs to change. I enjoy the scaling in lower level zones. It makes the maps playable and at least somewhat rewarding at max level. And I very much prefer HoT enemies to much of what core had to offer.

Let’s be clear … I don’t think Anet wants you to face down EVERY mob you encounter, but it’s obvious to me that it’s not a ‘problem’ that a player can’t get away from mobs in AB and TD because they are hard. I mean, what’s the point of making and placing a variety of hard mobs in the path of players … if Anet’s intention was to allow players to avoid those mobs in the first place? It doesn’t add up.

A good player has many solutions to the various mob ‘problems’ Anet has placed in the game. Avoidance is just one of those. If that’s the primary solution they use when things get hard, they aren’t going to get far. It’s not actually a problem that a player relies primarily on avoidance as a strategy to solve the ‘hard mob in AB, TD’ problem. There are many other ways to solve that problem.

Obtena.7952:

If you’re character is level 20 and running through a level 1 area, it’s downscaled so those mobs aren’t as easy to ignore. There are also waypoints. Also, pocket raptors. etc …

What do these things have in common? They are design features Anet has included so you can’t just run through mobs and not fight them. So yes, I have my opinions, you have yours but the fact you can’t just run through mobs you don’t want to fight isn’t a problem and not just my opinion because it’s how the game was intentionally designed.

If this was a consistent and purposeful decision, why start this practice only with HoT and then stop it with Bloodstone Fen? No, I believe that the design of HoT is the issue.

And it is MY opinion that downscaling is designed more to avoid powerleveling.

What practice are you referring to? Methods that encourage players to fight the mobs have been in the game since day 1. Game design strategies to make player/mob encounters more certain are not limited to HoT. I don’t think Fen stops anything either … there are mobs everywhere and they do something new; trying to knock you off your glider. That’s not pulling back from making mob/player encounters, that’s moving forward.

And again, while you continue to refer to your opinion, downscaling is a method to make mobs less easy to ignore. You refer to downscaling as a way Anet discourages powerleveling? That makes no sense … How many percent increase can you get in XP with boosts? How many Experience scrolls and Tomes does Anet hand out on a daily basis? Want a level 40 character? Just open a birthday gift … Ever kill a yellow mob that gave 5x it’s bonus in regular damage because it hasn’t been killed in a long time? No, I’m pretty sure the message here is that powerleveling is not discouraged in the least. It’s actually encouraged as well. Anet wants players to get to level 80 because form a business perspective, players that get endgame faster are better consumers.

Maybe you should look into what is happening in the game to see if your opinions match it.

Djinn.9245:

Obtena.7952:

A little off topic but I think that’s the point … you shouldn’t be able to just run your way through maps and avoid mobs. I mean, there is a reason Anet put them there in the first place. In fact in Fen, i think it’s worse because in HoT, you can kill those mobs. in Fen, killing those mobs doesn’t really ‘clear your path’ so to speak. Some of the non-avoidance methods in Fen can’t even be avoided … like random death bubbles, etc..

It is your opinion that we shouldn’t be able to ignore mobs at all. If my character is level 20, it shouldn’t have to fight it’s way through every mob in a level 1 area. And so on up the level range and gear / experience range.

Why should you not have to fight your way through mobs? For what reason? A wolf is still a wolf.

Downscaling was a big selling point of this game for many of us. It’s been here since day one. Four years on, every time someone makes a post saying downscaling is bad, the bulk of the posts go against it.

Downscaling is one of the best features of this game.

Djinn.9245:

If this was a consistent and purposeful decision, why start this practice only with HoT and then stop it with Bloodstone Fen?

Moreover, remember that they once decresed density and cc usage of mobs in Orr specifically because players complained it’s hard to get anywhere on foot without killing everything on the way.

At that time, at least, Anet agreed that it made the map movement too slow and too annoying for a majority of players.

Obtena.7952:

What practice are you referring to?

The practice of having mob density / difficulty to be so high as to almost require fighting through rather than running through for the majority of players.

Obtena.7952:

Methods that encourage players to fight the mobs have been in the game since day 1. Game design strategies to make player/mob encounters more certain are not limited to HoT. I don’t think Fen stops anything either … there are mobs everywhere and they do something new; trying to knock you off your glider. That’s not pulling back from making mob/player encounters, that’s moving forward.

And again, while you continue to refer to your opinion

I refer to my opinion because I am not an Anet employee.

Obtena.7952:

, downscaling is a method to make mobs less easy to ignore. You refer to downscaling as a way Anet discourages powerleveling? That makes no sense … How many percent increase can you get in XP with boosts? How many Experience scrolls and Tomes does Anet hand out on a daily basis? Want a level 40 character? Just open a birthday gift … Ever kill a yellow mob that gave 5x it’s bonus in regular damage because it hasn’t been killed in a long time? No, I’m pretty sure the message here is that powerleveling is not discouraged in the least. It’s actually encouraged as well. Anet wants players to get to level 80 because form a business perspective, players that get endgame faster are better consumers.

I don’t know that an endgame player is a better consumer – I don’t have access to those metrix.

ANet places mobs to make running past them harder, not impossible. All you have to do to see this is observe that players can and do run past mobs all the time, even in HoT. ANet seems to have no intent to make players fight mobs unless they cannot run past. Greater mob density just ups the skill threshold a bit for running past.

This leaves players with less skill who need to fight to get past often facing greater numbers than they can take. The whole design seems counter-productive.

Greater challenge comes from two things. Mob numbers is the nature of individual mob abilities and the underlying math that says how much damage those mobs do. The other is number of mobs, which is how many mobs are in a given place.

Harder mobs are supposedly put in the game to offer greater challenge to skilled players. However, those players are less likely to actually stick around to fight random mobs placed solely for the purpose of populating the zone with enemies. The more skilled are usually on the way somewhere they can do events, or farm.

Mob number challenges are fine as is. If one is fighting a mob, that mob being more of a threat is a good thing. Number of mobs challenge is more appropriate in places where numbers of players are likely to converge. Placing large numbers of mobs in places where players are only going to want to get by is just a hindrance for the less skilled while not providing any benefit for the demographic that wanted more challenge in the first place.

Djinn.9245:

Obtena.7952:

What practice are you referring to?

The practice of having mob density / difficulty to be so high as to almost require fighting through rather than running through for the majority of players.

Obtena.7952:

Methods that encourage players to fight the mobs have been in the game since day 1. Game design strategies to make player/mob encounters more certain are not limited to HoT. I don’t think Fen stops anything either … there are mobs everywhere and they do something new; trying to knock you off your glider. That’s not pulling back from making mob/player encounters, that’s moving forward.

And again, while you continue to refer to your opinion

I refer to my opinion because I am not an Anet employee.

Obtena.7952:

, downscaling is a method to make mobs less easy to ignore. You refer to downscaling as a way Anet discourages powerleveling? That makes no sense … How many percent increase can you get in XP with boosts? How many Experience scrolls and Tomes does Anet hand out on a daily basis? Want a level 40 character? Just open a birthday gift … Ever kill a yellow mob that gave 5x it’s bonus in regular damage because it hasn’t been killed in a long time? No, I’m pretty sure the message here is that powerleveling is not discouraged in the least. It’s actually encouraged as well. Anet wants players to get to level 80 because form a business perspective, players that get endgame faster are better consumers.

I don’t know that an endgame player is a better consumer – I don’t have access to those metrix.

You don’t need to be an Anet employee to figure these things out. Simply by observing the game you play, you can see and make assertions about the direction the game takes. There is no surprise to me at this point that if you don’t realize this, why your views are so far off what the game actually is. Everyone can have an opinion, but the credible ones are based off of the game or gaming experience, not how players think things should be.

Downscaling is not the issue. Mob spacing and agro range are the problem. ArenaNet can set those as they please, downscaling can remain intact.

I run past mobs no matter which level I am. I find them generally too annoying when I am playing solo so I only really engage standard mobs when there are others around. I really wish maps where easier to go through without being interrupted by strategically placed mobs that have the sole purpose of annoying the crap out of me whenever I get remotely near them. They also have amazing ranged weapons that can shoot over thousands of meters. I don’t consider that fun, but I would never blame that on downscaling. Agro range and mob spacing can be set outside of downscaling.

While I agree that downscaling is not a problem, I find it disturbing that people are complaining about aggro and encountering mobs … it’s like they don’t know they are playing an MMO. In otherwords, what is an MMO where getting aggro and encountering mobs, no matter the volume or difficulty, is not a significant part of the game? It’s just a big empty map. Then people complain your just sight seeing.

I’ve played both kinds of games … not enough mobs on the sight seeing tour and killing the wall of mobs on the hour long trek to get anywhere because of it; and both suck. GW2 is hardly either of those. This is the same thing as when people pipe in about how grindy GW2 is … That lack of perspective is very telling when people are trying to compare games.

I find the aggro range very reasonable in GW2, if not a little light, though there is a few mobs with exceptional range like Risen Acolytes. Spacing I don’t see an issue with, though again, some areas designed with mobs so that it’s difficult, though not impossible, unless your in the Chak Underground for instance.

That’s what I’m talking about .. you can see the whole range of these area designs in the game, so the mob placement, aggro range, etc… isn’t just some afterthought … you know Anet intended certain things in certain areas … you can identify easily what is hard and easy areas.

Obtena.7952:

While I agree that downscaling is not a problem, I find it disturbing that people are complaining about aggro and encountering mobs … it’s like they don’t know they are playing an MMO. In otherwords, what is an MMO where getting aggro and encountering mobs, no matter the volume or difficulty, is not a significant part of the game? It’s just a big empty map. Then people complain your just sight seeing.

I’ve played both kinds of games … not enough mobs on the sight seeing tour and killing the wall of mobs on the hour long trek to get anywhere because of it; and both suck. GW2 is hardly either of those. This is the same thing as when people pipe in about how grindy GW2 is … That lack of perspective is very telling when people are trying to compare games.

I find the aggro range very reasonable in GW2, if not a little light, though there is a few mobs with exceptional range like Risen Acolytes. Spacing I don’t see an issue with, though again, some areas designed with mobs so that it’s difficult, though not impossible, unless your in the Chak Underground for instance.

That’s what I’m talking about .. you can see the whole range of these area designs in the game, so the mob placement, aggro range, etc… isn’t just some afterthought … you know Anet intended certain things in certain areas … you can identify easily what is hard and easy areas.

I always enjoy posts that begin with a ridiculous (and completely false) assumption about a specific group of people and then go on to rail against that assumption as if it were representative.

I think you know that there’s a pretty large area between “a big empty map” and a reduction in mob density, aggro range, or any number of other less extreme options for addressing the perceived issue than removal of all enemies and/or aggro mechanics.

You know what, though? I’m with you. I love combat in this game and I have a real tough time walking past an enemy and letting it live. Let’s just say I’m easily distracted. But while ANet clearly decided to design things the way they are, and I’m personally fine with it, that’s hardly a reason to stink up someone else’s thread by telling them how much it disturbs you that they have an opinion that differs from your own.

You are, of course, welcome to yours and I agree with you: HoT is a ton of fun and I absolutely love battling the chak, mordrem, even those nasty mushrooms, smokescales, and saurians (you cute little pocket raptors, too!)! But I didn’t mind the changes in the April patch and I’m never closed to well-reasoned discussion on ways to make HoT more appealing to more players.

Ultimately, I would like players to enjoy these maps enough to spend time in them, because they do represent some truly incredible designs like nothing you’ll find anywhere else. It’s a shame more players don’t appreciate them. And I think there are certainly areas where mob density could be reduced.

For starters, how about the long route to Ogre camp from Order of Whispers in TD? The shortcut is hidden well enough to justify a mastery strongbox, a hero point, a vista, a flax farm, and multiple chests along the way. Are you telling me you’d be upset if they removed a few of the about four hundred mordrem maggots crammed into that tunnel along the way?

I think we can compromise here. There are areas which are obnoxiously dense with mobs for no apparent reason.

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet places mobs to make running past them harder, not impossible. All you have to do to see this is observe that players can and do run past mobs all the time, even in HoT. ANet seems to have no intent to make players fight mobs unless they cannot run past. Greater mob density just ups the skill threshold a bit for running past.

This leaves players with less skill who need to fight to get past often facing greater numbers than they can take. The whole design seems counter-productive.

Greater challenge comes from two things. Mob numbers is the nature of individual mob abilities and the underlying math that says how much damage those mobs do. The other is number of mobs, which is how many mobs are in a given place.

Harder mobs are supposedly put in the game to offer greater challenge to skilled players. However, those players are less likely to actually stick around to fight random mobs placed solely for the purpose of populating the zone with enemies. The more skilled are usually on the way somewhere they can do events, or farm.

Mob number challenges are fine as is. If one is fighting a mob, that mob being more of a threat is a good thing. Number of mobs challenge is more appropriate in places where numbers of players are likely to converge. Placing large numbers of mobs in places where players are only going to want to get by is just a hindrance for the less skilled while not providing any benefit for the demographic that wanted more challenge in the first place.

Keep in mind there, are often ways in HoT around the dense mobs, instead of running directly through. Sometimes you need to find an alternate path. That’s part of learning the zone. I almost never run through that plateau in VB near the Treacherous Point Waypoint. I always glide over or around it.

(For some background: I didn’t start playing this game until a short while before HOT launched. I stopped playing back in February and just came back to the game a month or two ago.)

Frankly, I loved HOT. It’s really perplexing to see people calling things like the VB meta a “zerg” and then saying Jades are an improvement. I understand why, of course: you have to be an absolute muppet to die on Jades, where getting, say, T4 in VB actually requires you to rub two neurons together and take some modicum of responsibility for the map’s success. That’s the real point here: Jades are an “improvement” because they’re loot piñatas (it’s so ridiculous that people even complain when a Jade Armor spawns instead of a Jade Bow because it takes longer to get to the free shinies).

I’m not a “hardcore” player by any means. I’m not running around in full Ascended gear with a Metabattle build. But what I will do, which is what separates me from a lot of the people complaining here who say “nobody plays”, is press my enter key and say in /map: “I’m doing x events at y location”. That’s literally all it takes for the non-meta event chains. For metas you just open LFG. If there’s not a group, start one. Yes, it’s scary. Yes, you might have to interact with another player. But it’s not hard.

This is where all modern MMOs are going and it’s so frustrating. Not content with having the entire world of single-player games to themselves, people come to MMOs and demand that they be made into single-player games in multi-player worlds. I was just thinking to myself as I was doing the DS meta the other day, “This is why I skipped out on SWTOR and FFXIV and came back to GW2: they struck the right balance between encouraging grouping and permitting soloing”. Now I come to the forums (to find out what “AB Multi” meant, ha) and see that supposedly everyone hated this and ANet “learned their lesson”.

Sigh. :/

AliamRationem.5172:

For starters, how about the long route to Ogre camp from Order of Whispers in TD? The shortcut is hidden well enough to justify a mastery strongbox, a hero point, a vista, a flax farm, and multiple chests along the way. Are you telling me you’d be upset if they removed a few of the about four hundred mordrem maggots crammed into that tunnel along the way?

I think we can compromise here. There are areas which are obnoxiously dense with mobs for no apparent reason.

I don’t think I would be upset about it, but again, I don’t see why it should be removed either; I’ve not seen anyone give a good reason why HoT should be dumbed down, especially considering the work Anet put into it to make it more challenging for players as HoT’s goal in the first place. I don’t see why any player finding a short cut should be rewarded with chests, etc… either; the shortcut is the reward enough.

This just goes back to what I believe is Anet thoughtfully designing maps with interesting challenges for players to solve, which is exactly what MMO players should expect to happen and consequently exactly what GW2 didn’t deliver in the original release. For me, the only compromise here is that people avoid zones they don’t like to play in. Anet can’t cater to every player that doesn’t want specific game experiences and it would simply be a fool’s errand for them to try to fix all the areas for players that want to avoid encounters.

Obtena.7952:

I’ve not seen anyone give a good reason why HoT should be dumbed down…

Not everyone likes it; that’s the reason people are offering. If that’s not a ‘good reason,’ then what reason could possibly satisfy you? The reason you’re offering for it not being ‘dumbed down’ is that you do like it.

Also, I only watched a couple of ads/previews of HoT before buying, but from what I saw, it wasn’t specifically marketed as being all about tough content. It was marketed as being a wide-ranging expansion everyone would appreciate. I ultimately don’t think that’s accurate, and that strikes me as a pretty good reason to be frustrated with new maps.

Obtena.7952:

For me, the only compromise here is that people avoid zones they don’t like to play in.

That’s the expansion. That’s been a consistent complaint of many posters, including the original comment – it’s the whole point of this thread. The maps are all about density, tough mobs, verticality and content best done in groups. The core game has tough maps, and that’s great. It also has maps that aren’t, or maps that offer a mixture. That’s great, too. And that’s what HoT should have had. (For the record, unlike many, I don’t find Bloodstone Fen that much better, probably in part because I haven’t invested heavily in Maguuma masteries yet, so getting around remains a pain.)

I’m not asking that Tangled Depths be remade. Sometimes I want a challenge. But I do care that I bought an expansion marketed as something for everyone that leans very heavily towards tough group content instead of providing a variety of things to do.

At this point, my strongest feeling about HoT is that it does little of what made the original game great, and I’ve wasted my money on it. My hope here is that Anet is listening to this sort of thing, and cares about it enough to consider making more diverse content from here on out. If not, it was fun while it lasted and I hope the remaining players have a good time.

theslynx.1596:

Obtena.7952:

I’ve not seen anyone give a good reason why HoT should be dumbed down…

Not everyone likes it; that’s the reason people are offering. If that’s not a ‘good reason,’ then what reason could possibly satisfy you? The reason you’re offering for it not being ‘dumbed down’ is that you do like it.

Also, I only watched a couple of ads/previews of HoT before buying, but from what I saw, it wasn’t specifically marketed as being all about tough content. It was marketed as being a wide-ranging expansion everyone would appreciate. I ultimately don’t think that’s accurate, and that strikes me as a pretty good reason to be frustrated with new maps.

Obtena.7952:

For me, the only compromise here is that people avoid zones they don’t like to play in.

That’s the expansion. That’s been a consistent complaint of many posters, including the original comment – it’s the whole point of this thread. The maps are all about density, tough mobs, verticality and content best done in groups. The core game has tough maps, and that’s great. It also has maps that aren’t, or maps that offer a mixture. That’s great, too. And that’s what HoT should have had. (For the record, unlike many, I don’t find Bloodstone Fen that much better, probably in part because I haven’t invested heavily in Maguuma masteries yet, so getting around remains a pain.)

I’m not asking that Tangled Depths be remade. Sometimes I want a challenge. But I do care that I bought an expansion marketed as something for everyone that leans very heavily towards tough group content instead of providing a variety of things to do.

At this point, my strongest feeling about HoT is that it does little of what made the original game great, and I’ve wasted my money on it. My hope here is that Anet is listening to this sort of thing, and cares about it enough to consider making more diverse content from here on out. If not, it was fun while it lasted and I hope the remaining players have a good time.

Why should HoT have had a mixture. If people remember Eye of the North, the only true Guild Wars 1 expansion, it was all end game content. It didn’t have a mixture because most of the player base are 80.

Just as Eye of the North was harder than any area of the game prior to it, except for end game content like the Underworld or DOA, it was certainly the hardest “open world” content in the game. The mobs were higher and harder level, they roamed in packs and some people did have trouble with it.

An expansion expands what we already have. That doesn’t mean it repeats what was already there.

I’m almost 100% positive that more people were complaining the game was too easy than the game was too hard. HoT balanced the tables a bit. We now have four hard maps, and 27 easier ones. Or if you want, you can say 7 hard maps and 23 easier ones.

There are plenty of easy maps, but not enough hard ones. The four maps of HoT weren’t really enough. They’re just a drop in the bucket.

If they had to split the expansion, it wouldn’t have been as good for players like me.

theslynx.1596:

Not everyone likes it; that’s the reason people are offering. If that’s not a ‘good reason,’ then what reason could possibly satisfy you?

It’s not a matter of satisfying him/her or me or anyone, it’s a matter of the remedy being commensurate with the grievance. I don’t like WvW but I do like Legendary Weapons. Your solution is “remove WvW from the game” because some people don’t like it. The sane solution was “let the WvW currency for Legendaries be sold”. That way, the people who enjoy WvW still get to play and my path to epic shinies is still open.

The remedy for your grievance has already been delivered: you got a nice, dumbed-down area called Bloodstone Fen to play in (and 20-something zones called Central Tyria, many of which I haven’t even completed because they are so very tedious — and that’s fine!!). Frankly, I’m bored of it already. So I maybe go there for the dailies or to spam auto-attack on Jades while I eat, and then go do the stuff I enjoy the rest of the time.

Personally, I still get satisfaction from slaughtering those stupid frogs in VB, simply because they are so very annoying. When I kill a bunch of them to get wherever I’m going, it’s great, because I hate them. But you want to remove that from the game for me and others like me because you can’t be bothered to find a way around them (which there almost always is) or spec’ing a cleanse so you don’t get Crippled or whatever.

Vayne.8563:

If they had to split the expansion, it wouldn’t have been as good for players like me.

No offence, but I honestly don’t see this as a problem. It would have been better for players who wanted more stuff to do in line with the core game. I would rather larger portions of the audience get a bit to do than a more specific group get a lot. To target one group’s predilections is to ignore another’s, which is unhealthy for a title that ultimately derives some playability from a broad, healthy community.

Ultimately, I hold that expansions should attempt to give a game’s total audience more of what they like and also take games in new directions. I think HoT was too specific and too slight to make the claim that it did this satisfactorily – especially considering the asking price.

trunks.1659:

It’s not a matter of satisfying him/her or me or anyone, it’s a matter of the remedy being commensurate with the grievance. I don’t like WvW but I do like Legendary Weapons. Your solution is “remove WvW from the game” because some people don’t like it. The sane solution was “let the WvW currency for Legendaries be sold”. That way, the people who enjoy WvW still get to play and my path to epic shinies is still open…

Personally, I still get satisfaction from slaughtering those stupid frogs… But you want to remove that from the game for me … because you can’t be bothered to find a way around them … or spec’ing a cleanse so you don’t get Crippled…

I didn’t say anything about WvW, nor did I advocate removing, or even altering, anything. I didn’t weigh in on toning down mob density. I didn’t mention frogs or my alleged inability to cleanse conditions. I said that I think HoT should have contained a better variety of maps and activities. If I was unclear about that, I apologise and have hopefully clarified my position.

Vayne.8563:

Why should HoT have had a mixture. If people remember Eye of the North, the only true Guild Wars 1 expansion, it was all end game content. It didn’t have a mixture because most of the player base are 80.

Perhaps you should compare it to another true MMO if you’re going to talk about true expansions. GW1 was not a true MMO as much as I enjoyed it and for me the other expansions like Factions were proper expansions with new areas, new classes, new skills , new play modes etc. which is what people expect from an MMo expansion.

I do agree that just copy pasting more of the same zones makes no sense. But I also think that the more casual players do not like this challenge but do want to follow the main story. I think it would be wiser to have a few zones where the main story happens that are much more toned down and then have some more challenging zones beyond that for those who want it. People have complained about what they have to do in HoT just to be able to get on with the story with regards to masteries and such, which requires people to play in the zones. And no matter how many people insist how easy it is, there is a reason why these people complain about it. We are not all of equal level as you pointed out to me before yourself.

I do think the game needs to move forward however but I am hoping they can make a split still because if the expansion should’ve been just for challenging endgame, it shouldn’t have had a continuation of the main story built into it because that’s one of the main activities that casual players tend to do.

theslynx.1596:

Vayne.8563:

If they had to split the expansion, it wouldn’t have been as good for players like me.

No offence, but I honestly don’t see this as a problem.

Well, if you understood that Anet is trying to run a business and not a charity, you would. It’s not about if it can be done, it’s about how it would be done. That’s much more work to split the expansion and they have finite resources … are you going to pay more for an expansion that satisfies the desires of more players? Wait longer? People seem to ignore the most significant business issues when these discussions arise.

No, it’s definitely a problem.

Obtena.7952:

Well, if you understood that Anet is trying to run a business and not a charity, you would. … That’s much more work to split the expansion and they have finite resources … are you going to pay more for an expansion that satisfies the desires of more players? Wait longer?

I’d appreciate if you didn’t insinuate that I cannot distinguish between charities and businesses.

As to more work: if Anet made five maps in the expansion, and made, say, two more relaxed and three tough, that would equate to roughly the same amount of work as five tough maps. By ‘split the expansion,’ that’s what I meant: there should have been a variety, and it was being discussed hypothetically. I’m not now calling for multiple maps to be rebuilt.

As to paying more money for a more thorough and larger expansion generally, in theory, yes. In practice, I’m not convinced that would happen. Heart of Thorns was fairly light on content for $50, and it seems like the devs have specific ideas about the future of the game at this point.

Obtena.7952:

theslynx.1596:

Vayne.8563:

If they had to split the expansion, it wouldn’t have been as good for players like me.

No offence, but I honestly don’t see this as a problem.

Well, if you understood that Anet is trying to run a business and not a charity, you would. It’s not about if it can be done, it’s about how it would be done. That’s much more work to split the expansion and they have finite resources … are you going to pay more for an expansion that satisfies the desires of more players? Wait longer? People seem to ignore the most significant business issues when these discussions arise.

No, it’s definitely a problem.

I’m not sure what Anet being a business has to do with the idea. I’ve played MMOs that have introduced both low level and high level content in an expansion.

If you considered how splitting the expansion would have affected the game, you would have seen the problems associated with it.

You know as well as I do that splitting the expansion in the manner you describe would have STILL resulted in players complaining they couldn’t do three of the maps. Furthermore, also resulted in some number of players who were looking forward to the challenge, disappointed with the other two. As I already said, you can’t cater to specific players with limited resources and time, as a business.

Djinn.9245:

Obtena.7952:

theslynx.1596:

Vayne.8563:

If they had to split the expansion, it wouldn’t have been as good for players like me.

No offence, but I honestly don’t see this as a problem.

Well, if you understood that Anet is trying to run a business and not a charity, you would. It’s not about if it can be done, it’s about how it would be done. That’s much more work to split the expansion and they have finite resources … are you going to pay more for an expansion that satisfies the desires of more players? Wait longer? People seem to ignore the most significant business issues when these discussions arise.

No, it’s definitely a problem.

I’m not sure what Anet being a business has to do with the idea. I’ve played MMOs that have introduced both low level and high level content in an expansion.

It has everything to do with it; resources are finite and other MMOs aren’t GW2 either. Just because one game dev decides to introduce both doesn’t mean that Anet had that pool of resources to do so as well. It’s just one of many factors they have to consider when deciding how to move forward with any bit of content, including expansions. It’s purely a business decision. A great example of this is their decision to halt Legendary weapon development.

If HoT is the future then this game has no future.

I love HoT, and really hope to see more of the same type of challenging content in future expansions.

Only two things I would really like to see done differently— a storyline that is longer (much longer), and mastery points not gated behind annoying adventures.

Obtena.7952:

If you considered how splitting the expansion would have affected the game, you would have seen the problems associated with it.

You know as well as I do that splitting the expansion in the manner you describe would have STILL resulted in players complaining they couldn’t do three of the maps. Furthermore, also resulted in some number of players who were looking forward to the challenge, disappointed with the other two. As I already said, you can’t cater to specific players with limited resources and time, as a business.

Djinn.9245:

Obtena.7952:

theslynx.1596:

Vayne.8563:

If they had to split the expansion, it wouldn’t have been as good for players like me.

No offence, but I honestly don’t see this as a problem.

Well, if you understood that Anet is trying to run a business and not a charity, you would. It’s not about if it can be done, it’s about how it would be done. That’s much more work to split the expansion and they have finite resources … are you going to pay more for an expansion that satisfies the desires of more players? Wait longer? People seem to ignore the most significant business issues when these discussions arise.

No, it’s definitely a problem.

I’m not sure what Anet being a business has to do with the idea. I’ve played MMOs that have introduced both low level and high level content in an expansion.

It has everything to do with it; resources are finite and other MMOs aren’t GW2 either. Just because one game dev decides to introduce both doesn’t mean that Anet had that pool of resources to do so as well. It’s just one of many factors they have to consider when deciding how to move forward with any bit of content, including expansions. It’s purely a business decision. A great example of this is their decision to halt Legendary weapon development.

It also doesn’t mean they didn’t have the resources. You write as though you know these things for certain and anyone else is illogical for not agreeing with you. The fact is that other MMOs also have limited resources and yet sometimes introduce “split” expansions.

Djinn.9245:

Obtena.7952:

If you considered how splitting the expansion would have affected the game, you would have seen the problems associated with it.

You know as well as I do that splitting the expansion in the manner you describe would have STILL resulted in players complaining they couldn’t do three of the maps. Furthermore, also resulted in some number of players who were looking forward to the challenge, disappointed with the other two. As I already said, you can’t cater to specific players with limited resources and time, as a business.

Djinn.9245:

Obtena.7952:

theslynx.1596:

Vayne.8563:

If they had to split the expansion, it wouldn’t have been as good for players like me.

No offence, but I honestly don’t see this as a problem.

Well, if you understood that Anet is trying to run a business and not a charity, you would. It’s not about if it can be done, it’s about how it would be done. That’s much more work to split the expansion and they have finite resources … are you going to pay more for an expansion that satisfies the desires of more players? Wait longer? People seem to ignore the most significant business issues when these discussions arise.

No, it’s definitely a problem.

I’m not sure what Anet being a business has to do with the idea. I’ve played MMOs that have introduced both low level and high level content in an expansion.

It has everything to do with it; resources are finite and other MMOs aren’t GW2 either. Just because one game dev decides to introduce both doesn’t mean that Anet had that pool of resources to do so as well. It’s just one of many factors they have to consider when deciding how to move forward with any bit of content, including expansions. It’s purely a business decision. A great example of this is their decision to halt Legendary weapon development.

It also doesn’t mean they didn’t have the resources. You write as though you know these things for certain and anyone else is illogical for not agreeing with you. The fact is that other MMOs also have limited resources and yet sometimes introduce “split” expansions.

There are many factors they have to consider. Obviously, there was SOME reason they didn’t do something other than what they did. I mean, if you just want to have a pedantic argument if limited resources was THE reason, then I have no data to suggest it was or wasn’t, so you can sit there and guess all you want. I don’t play that game.

I think my point is made and it’s clear; these ARE business decisions and they are limited in resources, so they have to make decisions on what they provide as content accordingly … and we know they do (again, legendary weapon development as one of the most recent examples). It would be completely illogical for someone to not acknowledge that.

PS … come to think of it, they are always limited by resources … do you think they have devs and support people just sitting around doing nothing? Anet (or any other company) are always going to try to give everyone enough work to keep employees engaged. Companies invest in people and want returns on those investments. If they can’t use people, they lay them off. It happens all the time in that industry.

At this point, I think I’m done discussing this with you … clearly there are some basic understanding lacking that prevent a fruitful conversation.

AliamRationem.5172:

(…) Incidentally, I had noticed that plenty of other players find the maps confusing. That was clearly intended. It’s a shame it wasn’t universally well-received, but some players (like me!) enjoy that aspect of HoT more than anything else. We’ll have to agree to disagree on the merits of that design.

I totally agree with you. In my opinion all maps (except for Dragon’s Stand – since I started playing HoT I’ve never seen it open – I’ve got no idea when did all the rangers get their electric wyverns) in HoT are amazing. I love flying all around them, when I get lost and frustrated I use my freshly acquired Nunoch Wallows mastery. Exploring those maps is pure pleasure for me. I don’t like being attacked on every corner just as other players but except maybe the walking mushrooms who just push me around for ten or more seconds before I manage to escape them, it’s not that hard to avoid having to butcher them all.

I love the atmosphere of the jungle, I love the music and all locations. I love unlocking vistas after a long trip to “the top of the world”. I find HoT’s maps amazing.