Guild Wars 2

DoctorDing.5890:

It’s a bit glib to say “You don’t need the mastery point because there are others”. Lots of those other mastery points are also gated behind mini-games or difficult tasks that are unrelated to the main gameplay.

I spent about an hour on this JP, using a video guide, and I did not even reach the third waypoint. I don’t care about the JP but I do care about that mastery point.

(And just in case anyone is wondering, I spent about an hour in Sanctum Scramble (with a video) and did not reach halfway. I spent less time on most of the other mini-games but with equally bad results). These sort of things should have rewards that are independent of the main game progress. Titles, unique skins, novelty widgets, whatever. They should not give mastery points.

You don’t need gold in any adventures either to get all of the mastery points needed to max your mastery tracks, you don’t even need to get silver in any of them. You need 128 mastery points to unlock all HoT masteries, and there are 163 HoT mastery points available. That means there are 35 extra HoT mastery points. Only 30 mastery points are involved with adventures period (technically there is another mastery point for getting bronze in each adventure in VB). Add in the one from CoT, add in the mastery point for HoT Act 4 mastery (in case you don’t want to do Migraine and/or Flights of Fancy) and you still have 2 (or 3) extra mastery points that you don’t have to complete to finish your mastery tracks.

And, even if this isn’t good enough for you, the next LWS3 episode will bring new mastery points with it as well. With an average of 6 mastery points coming in each new LWS3 episode so far, and with the next mastery likely to take either 3 or 5 mastery points, you will also be getting additional “optional” mastery points to tackle.

FRoZeNooB.1629:

I could totally use some help on Drydock scratch or trolls revenge NA. I made it 3/4 of the way on both of them and ended up falling and didn’t feel like wasting another 15 minutes to get back to the same spot…

Please someone who has a Mesmer parked hit me up

You can’t actually do Drydock scratch wtihout running the puzzle, since there are checkpoints throughout. You have to run it. You’d need four portals to get to the end of trolls revenge.

OriOri.8724:

DoctorDing.5890:

It’s a bit glib to say “You don’t need the mastery point because there are others”. Lots of those other mastery points are also gated behind mini-games or difficult tasks that are unrelated to the main gameplay.

I spent about an hour on this JP, using a video guide, and I did not even reach the third waypoint. I don’t care about the JP but I do care about that mastery point.

(And just in case anyone is wondering, I spent about an hour in Sanctum Scramble (with a video) and did not reach halfway. I spent less time on most of the other mini-games but with equally bad results). These sort of things should have rewards that are independent of the main game progress. Titles, unique skins, novelty widgets, whatever. They should not give mastery points.

You don’t need gold in any adventures either to get all of the mastery points needed to max your mastery tracks, you don’t even need to get silver in any of them. You need 128 mastery points to unlock all HoT masteries, and there are 163 HoT mastery points available. That means there are 35 extra HoT mastery points. Only 30 mastery points are involved with adventures period (technically there is another mastery point for getting bronze in each adventure in VB). Add in the one from CoT, add in the mastery point for HoT Act 4 mastery (in case you don’t want to do Migraine and/or Flights of Fancy) and you still have 2 (or 3) extra mastery points that you don’t have to complete to finish your mastery tracks.

And, even if this isn’t good enough for you, the next LWS3 episode will bring new mastery points with it as well. With an average of 6 mastery points coming in each new LWS3 episode so far, and with the next mastery likely to take either 3 or 5 mastery points, you will also be getting additional “optional” mastery points to tackle.

Yep, that’s the glibness I’m talking about. MPs gated by minigames and JPs is like having to play Candy Crush to earn upgrades in your car racing game.

FRoZeNooB.1629:

I could totally use some help on Drydock scratch or trolls revenge NA. I made it 3/4 of the way on both of them and ended up falling and didn’t feel like wasting another 15 minutes to get back to the same spot…

Please someone who has a Mesmer parked hit me up

DryDock Scratch allows you to pay the little skritt to port you back to close to where you were.

Forgive me if you knew that already, I figured better to say it just in case.

DoctorDing.5890:

OriOri.8724:

DoctorDing.5890:

It’s a bit glib to say “You don’t need the mastery point because there are others”. Lots of those other mastery points are also gated behind mini-games or difficult tasks that are unrelated to the main gameplay.

I spent about an hour on this JP, using a video guide, and I did not even reach the third waypoint. I don’t care about the JP but I do care about that mastery point.

(And just in case anyone is wondering, I spent about an hour in Sanctum Scramble (with a video) and did not reach halfway. I spent less time on most of the other mini-games but with equally bad results). These sort of things should have rewards that are independent of the main game progress. Titles, unique skins, novelty widgets, whatever. They should not give mastery points.

You don’t need gold in any adventures either to get all of the mastery points needed to max your mastery tracks, you don’t even need to get silver in any of them. You need 128 mastery points to unlock all HoT masteries, and there are 163 HoT mastery points available. That means there are 35 extra HoT mastery points. Only 30 mastery points are involved with adventures period (technically there is another mastery point for getting bronze in each adventure in VB). Add in the one from CoT, add in the mastery point for HoT Act 4 mastery (in case you don’t want to do Migraine and/or Flights of Fancy) and you still have 2 (or 3) extra mastery points that you don’t have to complete to finish your mastery tracks.

And, even if this isn’t good enough for you, the next LWS3 episode will bring new mastery points with it as well. With an average of 6 mastery points coming in each new LWS3 episode so far, and with the next mastery likely to take either 3 or 5 mastery points, you will also be getting additional “optional” mastery points to tackle.

Yep, that’s the glibness I’m talking about. MPs gated by minigames and JPs is like having to play Candy Crush to earn upgrades in your car racing game.

Welp you just showed that you aren’t even reading what I’m writing. You don’t need a single one of the MPs that are behind adventures or JQs. Not a single one of them.

2016-17, the year ‘gated’ became the new anti buzzword for the negative (previous winner was ‘grind’)

OriOri.8724:

Welp you just showed that you aren’t even reading what I’m writing. You don’t need a single one of the MPs that are behind adventures or JQs. Not a single one of them.

Except you do, if you don’t care for raids and the silliness that is story achievements.

IndigoSundown.5419:

OriOri.8724:

Welp you just showed that you aren’t even reading what I’m writing. You don’t need a single one of the MPs that are behind adventures or JQs. Not a single one of them.

Except you do, if you don’t care for raids and the silliness that is story achievements.

Do you just want to be handed mastery points for logging in? Because that is what some people in this thread are starting to sound like. He specifically complained about adventures and Jump Quests having mastery points locked behind them. I showed that its possible to complete all of your mastery tracks without ever doing a single adventure or any jumping puzzle that has a mastery point behind it. That makes his complaint unfounded, and therefor somewhat ridiculous.

But here you are saying that its impossible to max your masteries if you don’t want to do

• story
• raids
• adventures
• Anything else that rewards a MP

Well then yes, it would be impossible. But if you hate so many things then why are you even playing the game in the first place? Because that makes up pretty much all of the HoT PvE content.

OriOri.8724:

Do you just want to be handed mastery points for logging in? Because that is what some people in this thread are starting to sound like. He specifically complained about adventures and Jump Quests having mastery points locked behind them. I showed that its possible to complete all of your mastery tracks without ever doing a single adventure or any jumping puzzle that has a mastery point behind it. That makes his complaint unfounded, and therefor somewhat ridiculous.

But here you are saying that its impossible to max your masteries if you don’t want to do

• story
• raids
• adventures
• Anything else that rewards a MP

Well then yes, it would be impossible. But if you hate so many things then why are you even playing the game in the first place? Because that makes up pretty much all of the HoT PvE content.

How did you jump from story achievements, raids and adventures to include “story and anything else that rewards an MP.” If one doesn’t want to do adventures, raids or story _achievements, one can still gather 119 MP’s. 127 are needed to complete. So close, but yet so far.

I don’t want something for nothing. What I want is for the stand-in for basic XPac progression to not require niche content. There should be enough points in story and exploration to more than complete the tracks. I’d be fine with 119 if it completed the Maguuma masteries and unlocked the XP bar, but nooo, the raid track is included.

So, no, I don’t hate “so many things.” There was a time that one could play current content in GW2, not be a completionist and still get a sense of satisfaction. Now, over and over, ANet sends the message, “Be a completionist, or be a third class customer.” I don’t hate that either. Hate is way too strong a word. However, as a gaming development philosophy, I sure as kitten think it stinks.

Oh, and that “Handed for logging in…” crap is so lame. Resorting to crap like that as an argument shows nothing but a lack of comprehension. People who don’t like specific mastery point content X that ANet is trying desperately to shoehorn everyone into are not asking for a handout. They’re asking for a change in development philosophy back to one in which one can choose to ignore a specific thing without feeling like one has to give up on basic progression if one does.

IndigoSundown.5419:

OriOri.8724:

Welp you just showed that you aren’t even reading what I’m writing. You don’t need a single one of the MPs that are behind adventures or JQs. Not a single one of them.

Except you do, if you don’t care for raids and the silliness that is story achievements.

Well but see now you have it where I don’t like mini games, or story achievements or raids. That becomes problematical. It’s like saying I want all my mastery points the only way I want all my mastery points. Open world commune or achievements only I like and I’m not so sure that’s reasonable.

Most of the story achievements are easy enough to do, and if you don’t like that you can do adventures or even raids. There are options.

If you don’t like any of the options, then you’re out of luck. But since a lot of those adventures are relatively easy, you should be able to get enough mastery points to unlock the masteries you need, surely.

IndigoSundown.5419:

OriOri.8724:

Do you just want to be handed mastery points for logging in? Because that is what some people in this thread are starting to sound like. He specifically complained about adventures and Jump Quests having mastery points locked behind them. I showed that its possible to complete all of your mastery tracks without ever doing a single adventure or any jumping puzzle that has a mastery point behind it. That makes his complaint unfounded, and therefor somewhat ridiculous.

But here you are saying that its impossible to max your masteries if you don’t want to do

• story
• raids
• adventures
• Anything else that rewards a MP

Well then yes, it would be impossible. But if you hate so many things then why are you even playing the game in the first place? Because that makes up pretty much all of the HoT PvE content.

How did you jump from story achievements, raids and adventures to include “story and anything else that rewards an MP.” If one doesn’t want to do adventures, raids or story _achievements, one can still gather 119 MP’s. 127 are needed to complete. So close, but yet so far.

I don’t want something for nothing. What I want is for the stand-in for basic XPac progression to not require niche content. There should be enough points in story and exploration to more than complete the tracks. I’d be fine with 119 if it completed the Maguuma masteries and unlocked the XP bar, but nooo, the raid track is included.

So, no, I don’t hate “so many things.” There was a time that one could play current content in GW2, not be a completionist and still get a sense of satisfaction. Now, over and over, ANet sends the message, “Be a completionist, or be a third class customer.” I don’t hate that either. Hate is way too strong a word. However, as a gaming development philosophy, I sure as kitten think it stinks.

Oh, and that “Handed for logging in…” crap is so lame. Resorting to crap like that as an argument shows nothing but a lack of comprehension. People who don’t like specific mastery point content X that ANet is trying desperately to shoehorn everyone into are not asking for a handout. They’re asking for a change in development philosophy back to one in which one can choose to ignore a specific thing without feeling like one has to give up on basic progression if one does.

You’re asking to be able to max your masteries without even playing most of the PvE content introduced with HoT. Don’t want to do story, don’t want to do raids, don’t want to do adventures, don’t want to explore the world. What exactly do you want to do in HoT to earn mastery points?

OriOri.8724:

IndigoSundown.5419:

If one doesn’t want to do adventures, raids or story achievements, one can still gather 119 MP’s.

…

What I want is for the stand-in for basic XPac progression to not require niche content. There should be enough points in story and exploration to more than complete the tracks.

You’re asking to be able to max your masteries without even playing most of the PvE content introduced with HoT. Don’t want to do story, don’t want to do raids, don’t want to do adventures, don’t want to explore the world.

163 – 119 = 44. So, those 44 MP’s are suddenly ‘most of the PvE content introduced with HoT’? What we have here is your failure to read. See the bold/italic portions of your post and mine.

Vayne.8563:

Well but see now you have it where I don’t like mini games, or story achievements or raids. That becomes problematical. It’s like saying I want all my mastery points the only way I want all my mastery points. Open world commune or achievements only I like and I’m not so sure that’s reasonable.

The mastery system is a stand-in for level progression. How does one level in any MMO out there, including this one? One gains XP. How does one gain XP in any MMO out there, especially this one? One can do almost anything the game offers. GW2 gives XP for doing almost anything there is to do. It’s an open progression system. One does not have to be a completionist. One does not have to be a completionist for masteries either, but the points make the system a lot more restricted. How is it unreasonable to expect the stand-in for a wide-open progression system to not require niche content?

A compromise solution which would make most players happy would be a method of exchanging XP gained from doing whatever you liked in the game for mastery points.
The exchange rate would need to be non linear such that the more mastery points gained this way would then require an ever increasing amount of XP to get the next mastery point.
This solves the problem of XP becoming worthless after L80, and keeps everyone happy.

IndigoSundown.5419:

OriOri.8724:

IndigoSundown.5419:

If one doesn’t want to do adventures, raids or story achievements, one can still gather 119 MP’s.

…

What I want is for the stand-in for basic XPac progression to not require niche content. There should be enough points in story and exploration to more than complete the tracks.

You’re asking to be able to max your masteries without even playing most of the PvE content introduced with HoT. Don’t want to do story, don’t want to do raids, don’t want to do adventures, don’t want to explore the world.

163 – 119 = 44. So, those 44 MP’s are suddenly ‘most of the PvE content introduced with HoT’? What we have here is your failure to read. See the bold/italic portions of your post and mine.

Vayne.8563:

Well but see now you have it where I don’t like mini games, or story achievements or raids. That becomes problematical. It’s like saying I want all my mastery points the only way I want all my mastery points. Open world commune or achievements only I like and I’m not so sure that’s reasonable.

The mastery system is a stand-in for level progression. How does one level in any MMO out there, including this one? One gains XP. How does one gain XP in any MMO out there, especially this one? One can do almost anything the game offers. GW2 gives XP for doing almost anything there is to do. It’s an open progression system. One does not have to be a completionist. One does not have to be a completionist for masteries either, but the points make the system a lot more restricted. How is it unreasonable to expect the stand-in for a wide-open progression system to not require niche content?

Masteries simply aren’t the same as levels though and equating them to levels is a misnomer, even if Anet decided to show them as mastery levels.

Most people will never need to use a raid mastery because most people don’t raid. So you don’t have to get every single mastery point there.

If you’re not going to make a legendary or if you don’t run fractals you don’t need those masteries.

This is very different from leveling.

Obviously if you choose to get everything you’ll need to do more. It’s a different system.

Vayne.8563:

Most people will never need to use a raid mastery because most people don’t raid. So you don’t have to get every single mastery point there.

If you’re not going to make a legendary or if you don’t run fractals you don’t need those masteries.

That was true at some point, but unfortunately eventually Anet decided that xp gain and rewards for continued leveling past 80 (skill shards), are unlockable only after finishing all mastery tracks in HoT/core.

Vayne.8563:

Masteries simply aren’t the same as levels though and equating them to levels is a misnomer, even if Anet decided to show them as mastery levels.

Most people will never need to use a raid mastery because most people don’t raid. So you don’t have to get every single mastery point there.

If you’re not going to make a legendary or if you don’t run fractals you don’t need those masteries.

This is very different from leveling.

Obviously if you choose to get everything you’ll need to do more. It’s a different system.

Then ANet should not have marketed masteries as the “instead of” for a level cap raise. That creates expectations.

As to not completing some masteries, that’s exactly what I’ve chosen. Pity that that means I’m a second class citizen. I can do without Exalted crafting and raid masteries. Still, it seems a shame that I have to be a completionist to gain a trivial benefit from the tons of XP that are awarded for doing content.

ANet is of course free to do whatever it wants. Fans of the game are also free to think this system is fine as is. However, there are consequences for everything.

While I believe emphasizing completionism may not be not a huge source of lost customers, it certainly has cost ANet some. Maybe the pay-off in keeping active players busy a bit longer was worth whatever customer bleed did occur. Maybe it wasn’t. It’s certain though that the game is not doing as well as it was. Maybe it’s aging, but I have a hard time thinking that telling any group of loyal customers, “This game isn’t for you anymore.” is a good thing.

J>>P<<

“WOOOOOSH!”
That’s the sound that XP points make as they rush past any L80 player who has not maxed their masteries.
And I believe that is the MAJORITY of players. It’s not good.

DoctorDing.5890:

Clunky controls and terrible camera angles make for a bad JP experience for me. I avoid ’em.

Indeed, the only truly bad thing that is responsible for many JPs being a major pain in the behind is the camera.

Since they knew they were going to do JPs in GW2, they should have made it so that all textures behind the character (i.e., between the character and the player’s screen) automatically fade out in tight space environments. Often, you can’t even see where are you heading/jumping because you simply have no line of sight whatsoever. That’s what makes it extremely frustrating at times.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

Masteries simply aren’t the same as levels though and equating them to levels is a misnomer, even if Anet decided to show them as mastery levels.

Most people will never need to use a raid mastery because most people don’t raid. So you don’t have to get every single mastery point there.

If you’re not going to make a legendary or if you don’t run fractals you don’t need those masteries.

This is very different from leveling.

Obviously if you choose to get everything you’ll need to do more. It’s a different system.

Then ANet should not have marketed masteries as the “instead of” for a level cap raise. That creates expectations.

As to not completing some masteries, that’s exactly what I’ve chosen. Pity that that means I’m a second class citizen. I can do without Exalted crafting and raid masteries. Still, it seems a shame that I have to be a completionist to gain a trivial benefit from the tons of XP that are awarded for doing content.

ANet is of course free to do whatever it wants. Fans of the game are also free to think this system is fine as is. However, there are consequences for everything.

While I believe emphasizing completionism may not be not a huge source of lost customers, it certainly has cost ANet some. Maybe the pay-off in keeping active players busy a bit longer was worth whatever customer bleed did occur. Maybe it wasn’t. It’s certain though that the game is not doing as well as it was. Maybe it’s aging, but I have a hard time thinking that telling any group of loyal customers, “This game isn’t for you anymore.” is a good thing.

I didn’t see Anet advertise them that way. They advertised them as horizontal progression, leveling is not horizontal progression. They compared them to games like metroid, which I don’t think is quite accurate either.

But no, I never got the idea that they were going to be like leveling, and I’m not sure why you got that idea.

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Most people will never need to use a raid mastery because most people don’t raid. So you don’t have to get every single mastery point there.

If you’re not going to make a legendary or if you don’t run fractals you don’t need those masteries.

That was true at some point, but unfortunately eventually Anet decided that xp gain and rewards for continued leveling past 80 (skill shards), are unlockable only after finishing all mastery tracks in HoT/core.

You’re right, of course, except the system wasn’t created that way. Anet added spirit shards well after the fact, because people complained about experience points being useless after you got your last mastery. It was a change in response to player request.

I agree, it needs tweaking so that everyone gets them if they choose not to level masteries. There needs to be some sort of toggle.

Vayne.8563:

I didn’t see Anet advertise them that way. They advertised them as horizontal progression, leveling is not horizontal progression. They compared them to games like metroid, which I don’t think is quite accurate either.

But no, I never got the idea that they were going to be like leveling, and I’m not sure why you got that idea.

How much of a stretch is it to say, “No level cap increase.” and “Horizontal progression system.” and determine that one is a substitute for the lack of another. Still, it really doesn’t matter. I’m not going to stop disliking the system and you’re not going to stop defending it. It wouldn’t take much to satisfy me. If ANet cba to do that, then they’re telling me they really don’t want my business. <shrugs>

That’s fine, as far as it goes. However, do enough of that across enough demographics and sooner or later it bites one in the kitten. None of us know when or if that point will come — however I think it’s safe to say that enough people were cheesed off about HoT for one reason or another that the game is in a worse place than it might have been if different decisions had been made.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I didn’t see Anet advertise them that way. They advertised them as horizontal progression, leveling is not horizontal progression. They compared them to games like metroid, which I don’t think is quite accurate either.

But no, I never got the idea that they were going to be like leveling, and I’m not sure why you got that idea.

How much of a stretch is it to say, “No level cap increase.” and “Horizontal progression system.” and determine that one is a substitute for the lack of another. Still, it really doesn’t matter. I’m not going to stop disliking the system and you’re not going to stop defending it. It wouldn’t take much to satisfy me. If ANet cba to do that, then they’re telling me they really don’t want my business. <shrugs>

That’s fine, as far as it goes. However, do enough of that across enough demographics and sooner or later it bites one in the kitten. None of us know when or if that point will come — however I think it’s safe to say that enough people were cheesed off about HoT for one reason or another that the game is in a worse place than it might have been if different decisions had been made.

See, I think a lot of people were cheezed off at HoT, but it was a lot of small groups, and for all different reasons.

I think the reason you’re cheezed off at hot, is one of the minor ones.

However, the conclusion that we’re adding a horitzontal progression system after you’ve finished leveling, I could never make the logical leap you did. Maybe because I’ve seen them in other games, and they’re always substantially different from leveling.

My one frustration with most jumping puzzles is.. they’re not puzzles.
A puzzle would define that rational thinking would allow you to clear it in one go.
Instead, it’s a jumping challenge. You don’t always have to find the right path because there’s only one path to go. In those cases, the difficulty lies in making picture perfect jumps. making picture perfect jumps can be challenging, but they’re not puzzles

Knowing where, when and how to jump does require brains. There are some JPs that only require reflexes, but they are few.

Ardid.7203:

Knowing where, when and how to jump does require brains. There are some JPs that only require reflexes, but they are few.

That’s not how I experienced them, honestly. In some cases like the gryphon valley I can see why you often have to look around to see where the path goes, but most are quite like the one in the sylvari starting zone, where you jump from platform to platform in a linear run. But then again, if you grew up with games like rayman 2, maybe pathing is something hardwired in my brains now, just like how people who played a lot of tetris are good at inventory management

I didn’t say they were hard… :P

Amaimon.7823:

My one frustration with most jumping puzzles is.. they’re not puzzles.
A puzzle would define that rational thinking would allow you to clear it in one go.
Instead, it’s a jumping challenge. You don’t always have to find the right path because there’s only one path to go. In those cases, the difficulty lies in making picture perfect jumps. making picture perfect jumps can be challenging, but they’re not puzzles

I tend to refer to them as Jumping Procedurals instead of puzzles. Same great JP acronym, more accurate flavor.

DoctorDing.5890:

“WOOOOOSH!”
That’s the sound that XP points make as they rush past any L80 player who has not maxed their masteries.
And I believe that is the MAJORITY of players. It’s not good.

Why? Serious question; for a while there no reward was given to any player, masteries maxed or not, and … the game didn’t die, players didn’t revolt, nobody wept themselves to sleep every night over it.

We can look to other games, if we want to, as well: WoW, XP vanishes at cap. ESO, XP goes to an alternate progression system, then vanishes at cap. BDO, technically no level cap, but progression slows down to the point that amazingly grindy players are at cap+8 with no cap+9 in sight. TSW, eventually you cap out all the things and the bank, and it vanishes.

Which is a fancy way of saying: nobody else has figured out a more useful thing that (a) it vanishes, or (b) it goes to effectively nowhere. GW2 rewarding spirit shards is shockingly good value, but it’s clear that it’s hardly essential for a game to do that in order to succeed.

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Why? Serious question; for a while there no reward was given to any player, masteries maxed or not, and … the game didn’t die, players didn’t revolt, nobody wept themselves to sleep every night over it.

Complaints on forums hardly constitute a revolt or weeping over the issue. Hyperbole serves no one unless it’s in sarcasm or satire, and you posited a serious question.

So, why did we see so few complaints before, yet we see more now?

Post 80 Level Tick Iterations:

1. Everyone got skill points, which were used to buy things shards now buy. Everyone got a minor reward.
2. No one got anything. A minor reward got taken away from everyone.
3. XP was used to fill mastery bars. Once masteries were done or if a player was stalled due to lack of interest or points, neither group got anything.
4. Completionists get a level tick reward. Non-completionists do not. Minor reward restored to one group, but denied to the other.

In iterations 1 through 3, everyone was treated the same. With 4, that no longer applies. The fact that there were few if any complaints about iteration 2, and more about 4, suggests the issue is not the shards, per se, it’s that 4 is perceived as unfair.

Whooooooosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IndigoSundown.5419:

SlippyCheeze.5483:

Why? Serious question; for a while there no reward was given to any player, masteries maxed or not, and … the game didn’t die, players didn’t revolt, nobody wept themselves to sleep every night over it.

Complaints on forums hardly constitute a revolt or weeping over the issue. Hyperbole serves no one unless it’s in sarcasm or satire, and you posited a serious question.

So, why did we see so few complaints before, yet we see more now?

Post 80 Level Tick Iterations:

1. Everyone got skill points, which were used to buy things shards now buy. Everyone got a minor reward.
2. No one got anything. A minor reward got taken away from everyone.
3. XP was used to fill mastery bars. Once masteries were done or if a player was stalled due to lack of interest or points, neither group got anything.
4. Completionists get a level tick reward. Non-completionists do not. Minor reward restored to one group, but denied to the other.

In iterations 1 through 3, everyone was treated the same. With 4, that no longer applies. The fact that there were few if any complaints about iteration 2, and more about 4, suggests the issue is not the shards, per se, it’s that 4 is perceived as unfair.

I agree this is very much the case and really needs to be fixed, even though I’ve maxed out mastery points myself.

I hate, the JP’s, did I say hate…ok good. Frustrating, boring repetitive.

Eh. The first time I ran Chalice of Tears it was hard ish to find the way… Now I run through it in 15 minutes or so. Which is about 50% longer than the Orrian Energy puzzle in Malchor’s Leap.

I dunno, I always find it relatively obvious where to go in most of these. You just look where the most obstacles are in the way or where the rocks are obviously made to stand out. In Chalice of tears it was only harder because you sometimes had to glide across the lava to the next section which was not visible at all. Though the direction with the most flame spouts seemed to be the most obvious to me there.

Mastery points shouldn’t really be an issue. If you’re talking about Mastery points that are behind alot of work then look at:

• Emperor’s new wardrobe: 600+ gold or 300+ gold and 16k badges of honor.
• Ambrite Weapon collection: 5440 geodes minimum plus
• Ascended Encoutrment: All ascended armor skins (Though at some point you might have three characters in ascended gear I guess.)
• Fractal master: All blue fractal weapons
• Gold Fractal master: All gold fractal weapons

Not to mention killing each of the raid bosses and some of the gold adventure achievements.

They need more variety in the length and difficulty of new puzzles.

Whenever they bring out a new puzzle it is just a long, tedious chore followed by another one that is just as long.

Drakz.7051:

They need more variety in the length and difficulty of new puzzles.

Whenever they bring out a new puzzle it is just a long, tedious chore followed by another one that is just as long.

The Lake Doric one wasn’t so bad. I actually liked it. Kinda. I appreciated that it does what no other JP does; it have multiple paths to success. More of that, please, ANet!

Conversely, Chalice of Tears that came before it is just legions of bad design squished into negative probability space specifically for the purpose of being “difficult,” when most of the “difficulty” is an utter lack of conveyance or humane design, in an effort to don nostalgia goggles for Nintedohard. Less of that, please, ANet…

Rauderi.8706:

Conversely, Chalice of Tears that came before it is just legions of bad design squished into negative probability space specifically for the purpose of being “difficult,” when most of the “difficulty” is an utter lack of conveyance or humane design, in an effort to don nostalgia goggles for Nintedohard. Less of that, please, ANet…

If Chalice of Tears was all of that, I’m a God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals of Jumping puzzles.

…

Fine by me. :p

Really, lack of conveyance is a better way of making a puzzle than follow the crayon arrows on the sidewalk that small children do on the street.
Then again I actually played the “nintendohard” games as if they were normal games. They just required a bit of effort and some brainpower and some skill to figure out most of the time. Just like Chalice of Tears.

Then again, I guess that was a generation ago when handheld games were games played in your hand while these days handheld games are just games that hold your hand.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Rauderi.8706:

Conversely, Chalice of Tears that came before it is just legions of bad design squished into negative probability space specifically for the purpose of being “difficult,” when most of the “difficulty” is an utter lack of conveyance or humane design, in an effort to don nostalgia goggles for Nintedohard. Less of that, please, ANet…

If Chalice of Tears was all of that, I’m a God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals of Jumping puzzles.

…

Fine by me. :p

Really, lack of conveyance is a better way of making a puzzle than follow the crayon arrows on the sidewalk that small children do on the street.
Then again I actually played the “nintendohard” games as if they were normal games. They just required a bit of effort and some brainpower and some skill to figure out most of the time. Just like Chalice of Tears.

Then again, I guess that was a generation ago when handheld games were games played in your hand while these days handheld games are just games that hold your hand.

There’s really not a lot of brainpower or skill involved in “jump in a random direction, die, and 3 minute walk back to restart.” That’s the sort of lack of conveyance and humane design I’m talking about. It does nothing but inflict unnecessary punishment for failure.

A good ‘puzzle’ involves clues. Some of my favorite JPs have been perceptual tests over barely-by-a-pixel jumps. Enough visual cues that the solution should be obvious, but subtle enough that it takes some poking and perspective to grasp it.

Not to give any similarly bad ideas, but if the devs made a Super Meat Boy jumping puzzle that teleported the character back to a checkpoint at every failure, I probably couldn’t even be mad. Not conceptually, at least. I’d probably still skip it, because I’m not a masochist that way, but that would at least follow good design principles: convey the path/action, fast iteration time, engage with challenge, avoid unnecessary punishment.

Rauderi.8706:

There’s really not a lot of brainpower or skill involved in “jump in a random direction, die, and 3 minute walk back to restart.” That’s the sort of lack of conveyance and humane design I’m talking about. It does nothing but inflict unnecessary punishment for failure.

A good ‘puzzle’ involves clues. Some of my favorite JPs have been perceptual tests over barely-by-a-pixel jumps. Enough visual cues that the solution should be obvious, but subtle enough that it takes some poking and perspective to grasp it.

Yeah. Jumping in a random direction does not indeed use alot of brainpower. Which is why I said it just needed some so you don’t have to. Lots of the clues are fairly subtle or just takes a good look around. If youre jumping in a random direction youre doing it wrong.

Rauderi.8706:

The Lake Doric one wasn’t so bad. I actually liked it. Kinda. I appreciated that it does what no other JP does; it have multiple paths to success. More of that, please, ANet!

Seconded. I liked that too.

use TacO… kinda cheat actually lol….

Ember Bay has the worst JP of the game, followed only by Troll’s Revenge and the Silverwastes one.

Makes me even wonder if it was intentionally designed that way or the devs just found funny shapes and platforms, added a chest in the end, and called it a day. I highly even doubt this was playtested; there are at least 4 areas where you struggle with the ground to register your jump and at least one is quite a middle finger for norns.

This was more like glitching the map and less like a puzzle. A puzzle gives you clues, this one has you randomly guessing where to go.

Aldath.1275:

Makes me even wonder if it was intentionally designed

It was. You can practically hear the “bweeheehee” from Seattle.

that way or the devs just found funny shapes and platforms, added a chest in the end, and called it a day. I highly even doubt this was playtested; there are at least 4 areas where you struggle with the ground to register your jump and at least one is quite a middle finger for norns.

If I’m being fair, this is a thing that irritates me in general with MMOs. Some equivalent slopes will different between navigable and utterly frustrating, usually depending on arbitrary developer whim. In other MMOs, it’s not such a problem, but in GW2, it’s often placed in an intentional part of a map/vista/jumping puzzle.

This was more like glitching the map and less like a puzzle. A puzzle gives you clues, this one has you randomly guessing where to go.

“Working as intended.” ™

I agree, provisionally. I think that things that offer mastery points or larger numbers of achievement points SHOULD be more difficult.

However, the difficulty in this puzzle (and several others) is extreme. It took me days to complete the Ember Bay JP. MANY days.

The biggest problem to me isn’t the difficulty so much as how the difficulty depends upon players hitting the keys at exactly the right moment. We shouldn’t have to hit a one- or two-pixel spot to continue. Unless one is willing to spend hours on each of several difficult jumps (that are difficult ONLY because of the precision needed), they’re not fun any more. They’re just drudgery.

Further, more checkpoints are needed. There are many puzzles that can ONLY be done (by most players) with a Mesmer. That just shouldn’t be; it’s wrong.

Finally, the rewards are way off-base. Difficulty should map to rewards, but it doesn’t. In the core game, every JP gives similar rewards, but they’re not all of similar difficulty.

There are some really good, but difficult jumping puzzles in the game.
Retrospective Runaround in the Silverwastes is one where the jumping bit isnt the main part, but figuring out where to go next is .
Goems Lab in Metrica Province is also pretty good but also hard, but its doable by most players, but you need stability.
As for the rewards bit , I play the game for the enjoyment of playing, not to get a reward, so Im not fussed if the rewards dont match the difficulty.
Possibly a solution to the reward problem would be to allow players to obtain mastery points for more JPs than there currently are.
The only major change to the JPs that I think is needed, is to actually advertise that they actually exist, as for people who come here from other MMOs ,theres simply no indication that there are any JPs in the game , or even what a JP is, as most other MMOs dont have them.
Nothing more needed than simply a message appears as you wander around a zone saying something like Jumping Puzzle nearby.

Forget jumping puzzles. I want SAB world 3 and 4!