Guild Wars 2

Fixing forum bug

AliamRationem.5172:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with the group nature of HoT metas is that the solution (work-around?) of taxiing is at least half of the reason why there are mostly empty zones. This could be solved by better scaling, but apparently ANet doesn’t want to or can’t scale HOT events to be done by smaller numbers of players.

I was just n TD mining for the daily and came across a “defend a cannon (or some such) event.” As I came on scene, there was one other player. One. The Chak "rushed the cannon. There were somewhere between 20 and 40 of them, and about half were Vets. This is only going to be fun if you have the numbers to match the mobs.

Two thumbs down, until Anet gets its kitten together and either fixes taxiing/mega-server or puts in scaling so that more than the people that manage to get into the one favored map can complete this crap.

Actually, the mob of chak that rush the cannon take their sweet time getting there and are single-minded (they don’t fight back). You can solo that part of the event. I did it yesterday on a map that wasn’t doing the meta.

What you can’t solo or do in small groups are the simultaneous events that determine whether or not you’re able to get the chak gerent to surface for the next phase. So, you could kill the mob of chak by yourself, but you’d need others to stomp mushrooms, break eggs, etc. or you still fail the event and the chak gerent destroys the cannon.

I think this problem would be better solved by finding a way to ensure that maps fill quickly instead of so many instances existing apparently with too few players. Although
I don’t disagree that better scaling could also help.

I just feel that the design of the boss events in HoT is such that scaling alone won’t change much. Even if each piece of the event required only 1 player minimum, you’d still need what? 8 players to cover everything? And good luck if any one of those players dies and has to get back in time to cover their part of the event! It’s clearly designed for maps full of players who are mostly participating. If you look at all of the other boss events, they’re all like this.

We just need the megaserver system to provide those conditions and I expect HoT will suddenly be a lot more enjoyable for many who currently aren’t enjoying themselves.

Yeah, well my latest hypothesis is that there were more people in all those empty maps until they taxied out. I’m aware that Anet is looking for “fixes” to mega-server, but I doubt they’ll fix human nature.

And for mobs that don’t fight back, they sure did fight back when I tried to kill them. Maybe there were a bunch of normal mobs mixed in? I don’t know.

IndigoSundown.5419:

AliamRationem.5172:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The problem with the group nature of HoT metas is that the solution (work-around?) of taxiing is at least half of the reason why there are mostly empty zones. This could be solved by better scaling, but apparently ANet doesn’t want to or can’t scale HOT events to be done by smaller numbers of players.

I was just n TD mining for the daily and came across a “defend a cannon (or some such) event.” As I came on scene, there was one other player. One. The Chak "rushed the cannon. There were somewhere between 20 and 40 of them, and about half were Vets. This is only going to be fun if you have the numbers to match the mobs.

Two thumbs down, until Anet gets its kitten together and either fixes taxiing/mega-server or puts in scaling so that more than the people that manage to get into the one favored map can complete this crap.

Actually, the mob of chak that rush the cannon take their sweet time getting there and are single-minded (they don’t fight back). You can solo that part of the event. I did it yesterday on a map that wasn’t doing the meta.

What you can’t solo or do in small groups are the simultaneous events that determine whether or not you’re able to get the chak gerent to surface for the next phase. So, you could kill the mob of chak by yourself, but you’d need others to stomp mushrooms, break eggs, etc. or you still fail the event and the chak gerent destroys the cannon.

I think this problem would be better solved by finding a way to ensure that maps fill quickly instead of so many instances existing apparently with too few players. Although
I don’t disagree that better scaling could also help.

I just feel that the design of the boss events in HoT is such that scaling alone won’t change much. Even if each piece of the event required only 1 player minimum, you’d still need what? 8 players to cover everything? And good luck if any one of those players dies and has to get back in time to cover their part of the event! It’s clearly designed for maps full of players who are mostly participating. If you look at all of the other boss events, they’re all like this.

We just need the megaserver system to provide those conditions and I expect HoT will suddenly be a lot more enjoyable for many who currently aren’t enjoying themselves.

Yeah, well my latest hypothesis is that there were more people in all those empty maps until they taxied out. I’m aware that Anet is looking for “fixes” to mega-server, but I doubt they’ll fix human nature.

And for mobs that don’t fight back, they sure did fight back when I tried to kill them. Maybe there were a bunch of normal mobs mixed in? I don’t know.

You may be right. I’m certainly not qualified to diagnose the problem beyond making the most general observations. I hope they can find a solution. But it seems clear that whatever that solution may be, it’s going to require a lot of work.

You’re correct when you say that you can’t change human nature. The only alternative is to change the game so that human nature produces the desired behavior (full maps!).

I hope people stop using the terms “casual” and “hard core” because they are over-simplifications of real people.

Everyone comes into the game as a new player. New players cannot expect to instantly level to 80 and take on L80 area mobs in PvE. There are a lot of things to learn. That is why the beginner areas are there.

The first time I leveled a character, I was terrible. I chose a terribly handicapped profession and stuck through it. Lots of dying and humiliation was involved. The second time, it was much easier and every subsequent time got better because I was learning the game’s mechanics and how to handle different mob types.

For me, the HoT expansion took just a bit of time learning how the new mobs behaved. It was scary difficult, at first, but now it is easy and I feel comfortable roaming solo.

That is why I believe there are no casuals. We all play the game at our own pace but our experience accumulates to give us insight and help us play better. Hard core gamers just spend more time during the day playing so they learn at an accelerated pace. They are not “genius” players. They simply take more time researching how to solve problems by reading the internet and dedicate more time trying to overcome challenges.

Calling yourself a casual is just as elitist as calling yourself a hard core player. There is only rate of learning and effort that separates players.

battledrone.8315:

Redfeather.6401:

I found an HP train in LFG, but got absolutely slaughtered just trying to reach them. huge sigh

yep, this was one of the most annoying things in hot
did you learn anything from it?

Yeah … HoT content isn’t to be treated trivially like Core GW2. Anet wasn’t lying when they said "challenging’, at least for some people.

Trevor Boyer.6524:

….Dragon’s Stand* however… are just annoying and obnoxious in every way. The maps are too complex and in no way friendly to back peddle…………I feel that ….Dragon’s Stand particularly are painful to play through. That has nothing to do with how difficult it is.*

I’m surprised to hear DS described as complex. It’s basically a road-trip with a bunch of pals. You shoot everything that’s red. If you die, jump back to the last wp and run back to your pals along a straight wide highway devoid of danger that your zerg has cleared before you. There are other things you can call DS, but complex is not one of them.

Danicus.4952:

Challenging enemies are fine, but I find my mindset to be, “I’m going to use these mobility masteries and my builds to avoid all the fighting so I can get to my destination where I can get to the fight that matters to me” in HOT. There is something inherently in error about that mindset in my opinion. Perhaps I’m flawed in thinking that the journey and the destination should be “fun”.

No, that mindset is a good one. A rational one. That’s why we have the adage “Pick your fights”. If we had to fight absolutely every critter we come across that would be the height of tedium. I don’t know where this expectation came from that one must fight everything in the jungle but it seems to pervade the game and the forums and I think that’s where the feeling of grind is coming from. Of course it’s going to feel like grind if you have only one way to play and that’s to fight all the kitten time. Use a thief or mesmer. Stealth past trash mobs. Teleport past them. Glide over them. Play your way.
The only error in your mindset is thinking there’s an error in your mindset.

So if I understand you correctly Zoltar – the anet game devs created game spaces (map territory), populated those spaces with adversaries for the player, and purposefully intended the players to avoid interacting with those spaces and adversaries using character skills and mobility masteries. From my point of view, that seems flawed. This isn’t a new property of many Guildwars 2 spaces of course. I avoid many mobs in Arah dungeons for example. It does however seem that a much larger percentage of open world HOT is to be avoided than the amount in core Tyria – by design. That is an interesting path for the devs to take.

being ‘casual’ has no bearing on skill. for example the average age of mmo players is 30ish i believe, and probably have less time to play, but have skill and experience that cross transferred from other mmos they have played in the past.

as for danicus’s points above, you did not understand Zoltar correctly – he said players should pick their battles and all Anet have done is given you options, so if you struggle, then you can opt to be more defensive or avoid fights – which is ofc exactly what you want.

Danicus.4952:

So if I understand you correctly Zoltar – the anet game devs created game spaces (map territory), populated those spaces with adversaries for the player, and purposefully intended the players to avoid interacting with those spaces and adversaries using character skills and mobility masteries. From my point of view, that seems flawed. This isn’t a new property of many Guildwars 2 spaces of course. I avoid many mobs in Arah dungeons for example. It does however seem that a much larger percentage of open world HOT is to be avoided than the amount in core Tyria – by design. That is an interesting path for the devs to take.

I remember back when GW2 was still in pre-launch design and ANet was talking it up. One thing said was that when players saw enemies, those enemies would be doing something which the game’s heroes might want to stop. Of course, they were talking about DE’s, and that’s exactly what DE mobs do.

Then you have the random mobs every X feet. These mobs must be paragons of their kind, because they’re out standing in their field (or jungle path, cliffside, etc.). This is the exact opposite of what was talked about. So why does GW2 even have these random mobs every X feet?

I believe they’re a artifact of older MMO’s. GW2 has a lot of genre conventions that are holdovers from the days of the first MMO’s. This includes stats on gear, for one, as well as mobs just standing around. In some of those older games, those mobs served a purpose. Players killed them to level once they ran out of quests.

There is no need for those mobs in GW2 for leveling purposes, except for those who populate heart areas. So, why are they just standing around where there aren’t any hearts? I can think of some possibilities.

• ANet put them in because they thought players would expect mobs standing around in an MMO
• In places like Heart of Maguma, ANet is trying to make the area seem dangerous, as befits the center of enemy territory
• Some of them are hanging out near their homes (like the hostile Itzel)
• ANet wants players to have to work to get where they’re going (Contested WP’s dovetail with that hypothesis)
• Anet didn’t even think about it, they just assumed there should be mobs because MMO’s always have them

The truth is out there.

Seera.5916:

Dante.1508:

Anchoku.8142:

I have said this before but believe higher level PvE areas should train players to become better at PvP. This is like training to play chess against a computer.

AI should become increasingly more complex, reactive, and proactive against players; i.e., corrupting boons, breaking stuns, interrupting big damage or heal skills, dodging, targeting real threats, protecting allies, etc.

There are a group of pve players that hate pvp of all types with a passion, many reasons for it but making pve customers do pvp mechanics would be a very very bad idea.

I personally hate pvp in every way shape and form, i’ve spvped like 5 times since guildwars released..

Anchoku’s only saying the NPC’s behavior should more closely mimic a real player’s. That’s not really that bad of an idea as long as the game gets better at gradually increasing the difficulty. Core Tyria to HoT Tyria didn’t do such a good job of that, the long time between the release of new content did play a role in that however.

However, the problem becomes making sure the servers are more stable and the game has more tolerance of lag. The more player like AI becomes the more high ping and high lag affect the success of players. And the Oceanic and Asian players playing on EU and NA servers already suffer from the effects of high ping and high lag due to how far away they are from the servers.

The whole reason so many hate hot is because they removed the casual fun experience and exchanged it for pvp and raid type mechanics.. Adding more would be a very bad decision imo..

They can sure but making things hard and grindy drives the casual player base away.

Dante.1508:

Seera.5916:

Dante.1508:

Anchoku.8142:

I have said this before but believe higher level PvE areas should train players to become better at PvP. This is like training to play chess against a computer.

AI should become increasingly more complex, reactive, and proactive against players; i.e., corrupting boons, breaking stuns, interrupting big damage or heal skills, dodging, targeting real threats, protecting allies, etc.

There are a group of pve players that hate pvp of all types with a passion, many reasons for it but making pve customers do pvp mechanics would be a very very bad idea.

I personally hate pvp in every way shape and form, i’ve spvped like 5 times since guildwars released..

Anchoku’s only saying the NPC’s behavior should more closely mimic a real player’s. That’s not really that bad of an idea as long as the game gets better at gradually increasing the difficulty. Core Tyria to HoT Tyria didn’t do such a good job of that, the long time between the release of new content did play a role in that however.

However, the problem becomes making sure the servers are more stable and the game has more tolerance of lag. The more player like AI becomes the more high ping and high lag affect the success of players. And the Oceanic and Asian players playing on EU and NA servers already suffer from the effects of high ping and high lag due to how far away they are from the servers.

The whole reason so many hate hot is because they removed the casual fun experience and exchanged it for pvp and raid type mechanics.. Adding more would be a very bad decision imo..

They can sure but making things hard and grindy drives the casual player base away.

So many? How many? How many by percentage. How many people is that compared to the people who like the extra challenge.

And again, what casual player base are you part of, because again, I have a guild filled with casuals who do fine in HoT.

You repeat this stuff over and over again but what you have is your opinion and your opinion. The percentage of people posting about HoT being too hard is not only less and less, but there are been posts by people who used to find it too hard and learned how to handle it and now they’re okay with it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Danicus.4952:

So if I understand you correctly Zoltar – the anet game devs created game spaces (map territory), populated those spaces with adversaries for the player, and purposefully intended the players to avoid interacting with those spaces and adversaries using character skills and mobility masteries. From my point of view, that seems flawed. This isn’t a new property of many Guildwars 2 spaces of course. I avoid many mobs in Arah dungeons for example. It does however seem that a much larger percentage of open world HOT is to be avoided than the amount in core Tyria – by design. That is an interesting path for the devs to take.

I remember back when GW2 was still in pre-launch design and ANet was talking it up. One thing said was that when players saw enemies, those enemies would be doing something which the game’s heroes might want to stop. Of course, they were talking about DE’s, and that’s exactly what DE mobs do.

Then you have the random mobs every X feet. These mobs must be paragons of their kind, because they’re out standing in their field (or jungle path, cliffside, etc.). This is the exact opposite of what was talked about. So why does GW2 even have these random mobs every X feet?

I believe they’re a artifact of older MMO’s. GW2 has a lot of genre conventions that are holdovers from the days of the first MMO’s. This includes stats on gear, for one, as well as mobs just standing around. In some of those older games, those mobs served a purpose. Players killed them to level once they ran out of quests.

There is no need for those mobs in GW2 for leveling purposes, except for those who populate heart areas. So, why are they just standing around where there aren’t any hearts? I can think of some possibilities.

• ANet put them in because they thought players would expect mobs standing around in an MMO
• In places like Heart of Maguma, ANet is trying to make the area seem dangerous, as befits the center of enemy territory
• Some of them are hanging out near their homes (like the hostile Itzel)
• ANet wants players to have to work to get where they’re going (Contested WP’s dovetail with that hypothesis)
• Anet didn’t even think about it, they just assumed there should be mobs because MMO’s always have them

The truth is out there.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Danicus.4952:

So if I understand you correctly Zoltar – the anet game devs created game spaces (map territory), populated those spaces with adversaries for the player, and purposefully intended the players to avoid interacting with those spaces and adversaries using character skills and mobility masteries. From my point of view, that seems flawed. This isn’t a new property of many Guildwars 2 spaces of course. I avoid many mobs in Arah dungeons for example. It does however seem that a much larger percentage of open world HOT is to be avoided than the amount in core Tyria – by design. That is an interesting path for the devs to take.

I remember back when GW2 was still in pre-launch design and ANet was talking it up. One thing said was that when players saw enemies, those enemies would be doing something which the game’s heroes might want to stop. Of course, they were talking about DE’s, and that’s exactly what DE mobs do.

Then you have the random mobs every X feet. These mobs must be paragons of their kind, because they’re out standing in their field (or jungle path, cliffside, etc.). This is the exact opposite of what was talked about. So why does GW2 even have these random mobs every X feet?

I believe they’re a artifact of older MMO’s. GW2 has a lot of genre conventions that are holdovers from the days of the first MMO’s. This includes stats on gear, for one, as well as mobs just standing around. In some of those older games, those mobs served a purpose. Players killed them to level once they ran out of quests.

There is no need for those mobs in GW2 for leveling purposes, except for those who populate heart areas. So, why are they just standing around where there aren’t any hearts? I can think of some possibilities.

• ANet put them in because they thought players would expect mobs standing around in an MMO
• In places like Heart of Maguma, ANet is trying to make the area seem dangerous, as befits the center of enemy territory
• Some of them are hanging out near their homes (like the hostile Itzel)
• ANet wants players to have to work to get where they’re going (Contested WP’s dovetail with that hypothesis)
• Anet didn’t even think about it, they just assumed there should be mobs because MMO’s always have them

The truth is out there.

Well said Indigo. It seems that the old mindset of random mobs, coupled within the new map design philosophy may have yielded unintended consequences.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Danicus.4952:

So if I understand you correctly Zoltar – the anet game devs created game spaces (map territory), populated those spaces with adversaries for the player, and purposefully intended the players to avoid interacting with those spaces and adversaries using character skills and mobility masteries. From my point of view, that seems flawed. This isn’t a new property of many Guildwars 2 spaces of course. I avoid many mobs in Arah dungeons for example. It does however seem that a much larger percentage of open world HOT is to be avoided than the amount in core Tyria – by design. That is an interesting path for the devs to take.

I remember back when GW2 was still in pre-launch design and ANet was talking it up. One thing said was that when players saw enemies, those enemies would be doing something which the game’s heroes might want to stop. Of course, they were talking about DE’s, and that’s exactly what DE mobs do.

Then you have the random mobs every X feet. These mobs must be paragons of their kind, because they’re out standing in their field (or jungle path, cliffside, etc.). This is the exact opposite of what was talked about. So why does GW2 even have these random mobs every X feet?

I believe they’re a artifact of older MMO’s. GW2 has a lot of genre conventions that are holdovers from the days of the first MMO’s. This includes stats on gear, for one, as well as mobs just standing around. In some of those older games, those mobs served a purpose. Players killed them to level once they ran out of quests.

There is no need for those mobs in GW2 for leveling purposes, except for those who populate heart areas. So, why are they just standing around where there aren’t any hearts? I can think of some possibilities.

• ANet put them in because they thought players would expect mobs standing around in an MMO
• In places like Heart of Maguma, ANet is trying to make the area seem dangerous, as befits the center of enemy territory
• Some of them are hanging out near their homes (like the hostile Itzel)
• ANet wants players to have to work to get where they’re going (Contested WP’s dovetail with that hypothesis)
• Anet didn’t even think about it, they just assumed there should be mobs because MMO’s always have them

The truth is out there.

Random mobs aren’t exclusive to RPGs of the MMO variety#

(Okay, so I just wanted to link that animation somewhere. It’s been too many years, and it’s only tangentially related to the subject.)

But really – random fights have been part of RPGs since Gary Gygax and David Arneson decided to take their Chainmail miniatures off of the wargaming battlefield into a dungeon. They serve purposes 2-3 quite adequately – Challenges to overcome on the way from point A to Point B, while providing ambiance to the game world.

Sartharina.3542:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Danicus.4952:

So if I understand you correctly Zoltar – the anet game devs created game spaces (map territory), populated those spaces with adversaries for the player, and purposefully intended the players to avoid interacting with those spaces and adversaries using character skills and mobility masteries. From my point of view, that seems flawed. This isn’t a new property of many Guildwars 2 spaces of course. I avoid many mobs in Arah dungeons for example. It does however seem that a much larger percentage of open world HOT is to be avoided than the amount in core Tyria – by design. That is an interesting path for the devs to take.

I remember back when GW2 was still in pre-launch design and ANet was talking it up. One thing said was that when players saw enemies, those enemies would be doing something which the game’s heroes might want to stop. Of course, they were talking about DE’s, and that’s exactly what DE mobs do.

Then you have the random mobs every X feet. These mobs must be paragons of their kind, because they’re out standing in their field (or jungle path, cliffside, etc.). This is the exact opposite of what was talked about. So why does GW2 even have these random mobs every X feet?

I believe they’re a artifact of older MMO’s. GW2 has a lot of genre conventions that are holdovers from the days of the first MMO’s. This includes stats on gear, for one, as well as mobs just standing around. In some of those older games, those mobs served a purpose. Players killed them to level once they ran out of quests.

There is no need for those mobs in GW2 for leveling purposes, except for those who populate heart areas. So, why are they just standing around where there aren’t any hearts? I can think of some possibilities.

• ANet put them in because they thought players would expect mobs standing around in an MMO
• In places like Heart of Maguma, ANet is trying to make the area seem dangerous, as befits the center of enemy territory
• Some of them are hanging out near their homes (like the hostile Itzel)
• ANet wants players to have to work to get where they’re going (Contested WP’s dovetail with that hypothesis)
• Anet didn’t even think about it, they just assumed there should be mobs because MMO’s always have them

The truth is out there.

Random mobs aren’t exclusive to RPGs of the MMO variety#

(Okay, so I just wanted to link that animation somewhere. It’s been too many years, and it’s only tangentially related to the subject.)

But really – random fights have been part of RPGs since Gary Gygax and David Arneson decided to take their Chainmail miniatures off of the wargaming battlefield into a dungeon. They serve purposes 2-3 quite adequately – Challenges to overcome on the way from point A to Point B, while providing ambiance to the game world.

I agree completely. Random encounters are definitely a core part of rpgs and mmos, but an often quoted remedy to the random mob placement in HOT is to avoid those encounters entirely using character skills and HOT mobility masteries. My point is that if those mobs are truly to be avoided throughout the maps, that points to a weakness in game design in my opinion. If those mobs are to be fought by players as one move through the maps, not all players are having a positive experience in that process. The stealth detection mastery for example, makes movement and combat significantly easier against stealthed enemies on the early maps, but it is at a higher tier of mastery than basic mobility essentials like updrafts and mushrooms. A player new to the HOT maps, may get turned off with the inability to counter those enemies, and forgo returning. This doesn’t make the player a bad player that needs to L2P in my opinion. I believe the devs should have tiered the experiences with increasing difficulties as the maps progressed. Enemies with short stealth times in earlier maps, and longer stealth times in later maps would increase accessibility, and incentivize learning the mastery.

Danicus.4952:

I agree completely. Random encounters are definitely a core part of rpgs and mmos, but an often quoted remedy to the random mob placement in HOT is to avoid those encounters entirely using character skills and HOT mobility masteries. My point is that if those mobs are truly to be avoided throughout the maps, that points to a weakness in game design in my opinion. If those mobs are to be fought by players as one move through the maps, not all players are having a positive experience in that process. The stealth detection mastery for example, makes movement and combat significantly easier against stealthed enemies on the early maps, but it is at a higher tier of mastery than basic mobility essentials like updrafts and mushrooms. A player new to the HOT maps, may get turned off with the inability to counter those enemies, and forgo returning. This doesn’t make the player a bad player that needs to L2P in my opinion. I believe the devs should have tiered the experiences with increasing difficulties as the maps progressed. Enemies with short stealth times in earlier maps, and longer stealth times in later maps would increase accessibility, and incentivize learning the mastery.

This is not an all or nothing choice. Nobody is suggesting that you must avoid all enemies in the jungle, just like I seriously doubt anyone complaining about HoT finds absolutely every monster they encounter impossible to beat.

You can fight the things you’re comfortable fighting, and if you encounter one of those monsters that just give you a headache, use your skills to bypass them. There is no rule that says you must either fight everything or avoid everything.

Only one of the maps (DS) is designed for large groups, where you can’t accomplish much on your own. Every other HoT map consists almost entirely of solo/small group events culminating in a large-scale boss event.

You’re right that new (and old) players may be turned off by the difficulty, as the core game does not prepare players for HoT. I also agree that this doesn’t make them “bad” players. However, I would say that it tends to indicate a lack of patience. When I hear some of these complaints all I’m thinking is how the player is missing the point.

You aren’t supposed to just walk over these enemies. You’re supposed to develop strategies to beat them. That means you’re supposed to die while you’re learning those strategies, but not so much once you learn them. It just takes some time and practice.

The map design is the same way. You aren’t supposed to just walk through every map the way you did in core Tyria. You’re supposed to explore the maps in sequence, unlocking masteries as you go and learning your way around.

In a sense, players ramp up their own frustration by expecting something that the jungle isn’t. You want to just run in and go straight to every HP, then move on to the next map and do the same. But the content is gated behind masteries, so it’s straight to the forums to complain.

I get it. You’re welcome to disagree with the design, but you might give it more of a chance. If you don’t know your way around VB or TD yet, it’s because you haven’t spent enough time exploring them. Likewise, if you can’t figure out how to beat a pair of shadowleapers it’s because you haven’t learned how yet. You aren’t a bad player. You’re just new to HoT because you hit the wall and never really came back to try and climb over it.

Danicus.4952:

Random encounters are definitely a core part of rpgs and mmos, but an often quoted remedy to the random mob placement in HOT is to avoid those encounters entirely using character skills and HOT mobility masteries. My point is that if those mobs are truly to be avoided throughout the maps, that points to a weakness in game design in my opinion. If those mobs are to be fought by players as one move through the maps, not all players are having a positive experience in that process. The stealth detection mastery for example, makes movement and combat significantly easier against stealthed enemies on the early maps, but it is at a higher tier of mastery than basic mobility essentials like updrafts and mushrooms. A player new to the HOT maps, may get turned off with the inability to counter those enemies, and forgo returning.

While you certainly have the option to do so, you don’t fight every single mob in every single map in core Tyria, do you? If by some chance you are one of the rare people (rare by my observation) who does that, well, you can do that in HoT too if you like. Or you can run past the ones you don’t want to engage. It’s a choice, same as any other map. There aren’t any invincible mobs you’ll encounter while running around in the HoT maps (which I assume would be the case if they were truly designed to only be avoided).

As for dealing with some of the more annoying mobs such as the ones that stealth before you have the stealth detection mastery, it really boils down to learning enemy tells and using your active defenses (blocks, cc, blinds, movement skills, etc.). If you have still have difficulty surviving using your weapon/utility skills/dodges, you always have the option to up your passive defenses (traits, gear) so that you can take a few more hits until you are more accustomed to dealing with HoT mobs. It’s not like they can’t be countered until you have the mastery unlocked.

Danicus.4952:

Pretty sure I won’t buy another GW2 expansion – especially if it follows the map design and skill progression structure HOT model. It’s a shame – I am a long time dedicated GW player – sorry to see the franchise pick this path.

For me, there needs to be a balance to the map types. I enjoy a bit of the HoT-esque full map meta, but what I enjoy more than that is a great open map with no map-wide meta that can just be explored and enjoyed. I don’t enjoy a map as much when there’s a constant pressure to keep pushing the meta.

The full map metas should be reserved for big story events. The remaining maps should resemble the core maps more closely. I want more side-story…that’s where the bulk of the interesting lore was in GW1 anyway. Heart quests, or collection-style “quests” (such as the Chuka and Champawat achievement to track the tigers) would be good ways of doing this…but I also want interesting dialogue, both spoken and in text.

HoT does not do side-story. I think that’s what lets it down the most for me. I can overlook the fact that each map is one big meta event since there’s only four maps, but I can’t forgive the lack of side story, in whatever form it comes. There needs to be plenty of it to make maps feel alive, and other than a little around Tarir, there’s nothing that sticks out.

What am I looking for in new maps?
Full-map meta events in key story locations.
Expansive open maps full of side-story and lore nuggets to make up the bulk of the rest.
Well thought out links back to Guild Wars 1 – not just “hey, there’s the falls. Good huh?”.

People might roll their eyes at that last one – but those of us who played through GW1 don’t want that experience to be for nothing. We want to see how times have changed, and how the areas we loved now look in GW2. I want further lore snippets and mysteries cleaned up. Guild Wars 2 could be doing this but… HoT did not deliver in this regard.