Guild Wars 2

I am an experienced casual player. 13K APs, 950 WVW rank, Closer to the Stars, done dungeons, raids, crafted ascended gear etc, etc. I’ve read quite a few honest postings about frustrations with HOT, and the trend in responses has been to respond to the OP by saying “learn to play better” or “I did it just fine, there is something the matter with you.”

I personally find HOT uninviting as a solo PVE player. It lacks the difficulty progression structure present in most games. It demands group (zerg) participation for individual rewards. It requires the development of mobility masteries to effectively access map areas efficiently. It loads the player with an ocean of inventory filling currencies or keys. It creates an unprecedented level of grind for goals.

I’ve completed the HOT personal story with a rev, and moved partially through with 4 other characters.

I’ve completed the new specializations with all classes. I find them fun and interesting additions to the game (imo the best part of the expansion) – getting HOT HPs pretty annoying of course. I must admit, I turned in some WVW credits to unlock some HOT HPs.

I was really looking forward to HOT, but am truly ambivalent about the expansion maps at this point – even with the nerfs.

I find myself now checking in, hitting the daily and getting out.

Pretty sure I won’t buy another GW2 expansion – especially if it follows the map design and skill progression structure HOT model. It’s a shame – I am a long time dedicated GW player – sorry to see the franchise pick this path.

My core point is, telling an OP that is frustrated with HOT to “L2P” or “I did it, what is the matter with you?” is missing the mark. There are authentic design departures here, and they are not friendly to the casual player.

So with all these threads about hard content you had to go make another? OK.

I haven’t even done the half of the things that you have and the difficulty is perfect, the maps are awesome except TD that is a little too much. There is no content in HoT that has the extreme zerg mentality that is in Core GW2, most events in HoT can be done solo or atleast duo but still alot require a team of 4-8 players per event. Meta events require more but isn’t just about zerging , it is about teamwork and to know what to do.

If you think HoT is all about zerg then what is the meta events in Core maps?

Too me making the game more casual friendly will make the game so easy so even braindead afk farmers can solo the whole content and players saying I am and idiot for choosing to play with soldier stats instead of zerker. No thank you, please no more threads about this and please don’t nerf HoT anymore.

Danicus.4952:

I am an experienced casual player. 13K APs, 950 WVW rank, Closer to the Stars, done dungeons, raids, crafted ascended gear etc, etc. I’ve read quite a few honest postings about frustrations with HOT, and the trend in responses has been to respond to the OP by saying “learn to play better” or “I did it just fine, there is something the matter with you.”

I personally find HOT uninviting as a solo PVE player. It lacks the difficulty progression structure present in most games. It demands group (zerg) participation for individual rewards. It requires the development of mobility masteries to effectively access map areas efficiently. It loads the player with an ocean of inventory filling currencies or keys. It creates an unprecedented level of grind for goals.

I’ve completed the HOT personal story with a rev, and moved partially through with 4 other characters.

I’ve completed the new specializations with all classes. I find them fun and interesting additions to the game (imo the best part of the expansion) – getting HOT HPs pretty annoying of course. I must admit, I turned in some WVW credits to unlock some HOT HPs.

I was really looking forward to HOT, but am truly ambivalent about the expansion maps at this point – even with the nerfs.

I find myself now checking in, hitting the daily and getting out.

Pretty sure I won’t buy another GW2 expansion – especially if it follows the map design and skill progression structure HOT model. It’s a shame – I am a long time dedicated GW player – sorry to see the franchise pick this path.

My core point is, telling an OP that is frustrated with HOT to “L2P” or “I did it, what is the matter with you?” is missing the mark. There are authentic design departures here, and they are not friendly to the casual player.

HoT is not hard, not at all. If anything core Tyria is too easy. HoT is easy mode if you play a ranged class. My ranger face rolled through HoT in exotic gear with some green trinkets. I only got the HoT pets after I had finished the story. The hero challenges only really need 2 people to do them, I did everyone on AB with 2 others and they where really easy to do with my warrior. Some can be soloed. As long as you have enough room to move and your only fighting the one mob. With my other warrior I soloed the arrow head, king mushroom, chak blitzer. It’s also about what weapons you use also. Alot of fights are easier at range. Like I said if you have space the fights are easy.

Most peoples problems with HoT is they think they can face tank everything like they did in the core game. People are unwilling to change tactics. I used to be quite rigid myself. I wanted to play with the weapons I wanted to play with. Then I realised that they would not always be the best option for some fights. So I changed my ways. I tried different things. And I found things alot easier.

This I feel is the main cause of peoples frustration with HoT. There unwillingness to try a different approach.

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Ayrilana.1396:

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Yeah Orr at launch was hell. It made HoT look like a walk in the park. The silverwastes was hard the first time you walked in there. Not too bad, but a nice little challenge.

Danicus.4952:

I am an experienced casual player. 13K APs, 950 WVW rank, Closer to the Stars, done dungeons, raids, crafted ascended gear etc, etc. I’ve read quite a few honest postings about frustrations with HOT, and the trend in responses has been to respond to the OP by saying “learn to play better” or “I did it just fine, there is something the matter with you.”

I personally find HOT uninviting as a solo PVE player. It lacks the difficulty progression structure present in most games. It demands group (zerg) participation for individual rewards. It requires the development of mobility masteries to effectively access map areas efficiently. It loads the player with an ocean of inventory filling currencies or keys. It creates an unprecedented level of grind for goals.

I’ve completed the HOT personal story with a rev, and moved partially through with 4 other characters.

I’ve completed the new specializations with all classes. I find them fun and interesting additions to the game (imo the best part of the expansion) – getting HOT HPs pretty annoying of course. I must admit, I turned in some WVW credits to unlock some HOT HPs.

I was really looking forward to HOT, but am truly ambivalent about the expansion maps at this point – even with the nerfs.

I find myself now checking in, hitting the daily and getting out.

Pretty sure I won’t buy another GW2 expansion – especially if it follows the map design and skill progression structure HOT model. It’s a shame – I am a long time dedicated GW player – sorry to see the franchise pick this path.

My core point is, telling an OP that is frustrated with HOT to “L2P” or “I did it, what is the matter with you?” is missing the mark. There are authentic design departures here, and they are not friendly to the casual player.

Danicus, while I don’t fully agree with you about HoT difficulty and “casualness”, I will not criticize your point of view because you have argumented it very well, with well chosen words and a skillful analysis, and because you have clearly stated this is your personal opinion. It is in fact really nice to read a well structured and intelligent review. I think you have already made your own unbiased and honest judgment on the Expac, so there is, no sense in try to change your mind or attack your points.

However, I will comment about those other, “frustrated with HOT” posters who fill the forum with angry threads. Most of them are not like you, or at least, they don’t show the respect and good intention you are showing.

Most try to speak in name of every one. Most aren’t open to any discussion. Most don’t make any research before writing. Most don’t want to even try. Most don’t even try to be rational.

Their typical argumentation boils down to:
“I’m representig all Gw2 players, I can’t win, I’m frustrated, this thing is trash, nerf NOW, anyone who don’t agree with me is a White Knight, I will NOT try to learn, I paid to not learn, I’m entitled to ask anything”.

These guys/gals DESERVE the L2P treatment, and, IMHO, they don’t deserve your support.

To be honest, telling someone simply to L2P is pretty pointless. It would be more meaningful if they were told how they could get better.

Ardid.7203:

However, I will comment about those other, “frustrated with HOT” posters who fill the forum with angry threads. Most of them are not like you, or at least, they don’t show the respect and good intention you are showing.

Most try to speak in name of every one. Most aren’t open to any discussion. Most don’t make any research before writing. Most don’t want to even try. Most don’t even try to be rational.

Their typical argumentation boils down to:
“I’m representig all Gw2 players, I can’t win, I’m frustrated, this thing is trash, nerf NOW, anyone who don’t agree with me is a White Knight, I will NOT try to learn, I paid to not learn, I’m entitled to ask anything”.

These guys/gals DESERVE the L2P treatment, and, IMHO, they don’t deserve your support.

Every map in HOT was designed to be played by large groups of players working together
however the system that underpins the whole design philosophy (Megaservers) is (and has been well prior to the launch of HOT) utterly broken.

No one should be telling other players to LTP – everyone should be questioning why Anet designed a whole expansion around a broken megaserver system and six months after launch we are still waiting for them to fix it.

It’s quite simple – If the maps were full, no one would need to play ‘solo’ and virtually all of the HOT Unplayable threads would vanish.

Fix Megaservers, Fix HOT

Casual

People keep using that word, without understanding what it means.

Casual is a distinction in amount played, not skill brought to the table.

The “Hot is unplayable” complaints do in fact stem from a combination of players expecting to be carried through content by giant zergs and a broken megaserver system.

HoT is a design departure from the core game’s open world. It is a very deliberate design departure away from “press 1 and collect loot” explicitly intended to create a greater challenge for experienced players.

While it is not surprising that some players who wanted nothing more from GW2 than to crowd surf zerg events are upset at this design direction, it does not invalidate the statement that the real barrier facing people that find HoT “unplayable” is that they literally refuse to learn to play it.

“Learn to play” is often thrown around as an insult, but it is absolutely the intent of the expansion. It is designed from the ground up to require players to be slightly better at the game than the vanilla zones, and to learn new sets of skills and undertake new forms of character progression. Like any expanded content, the expectation is that it is not simply more of the same, and that to succeed one will need to learn to play it.

Whether you like or dislike that change is a matter of personal preference. However, the intent is clear, and the fact that we are over half a year out from release and no major difficulty adjustments have been made should indicate that Arenanet has heard the feedback from everyone involved and made a deliberate decision to maintain the status quo on difficulty while being more forgiving on scheduling and grind.

April’s patch was the adjustment to what Anet feels is a fair expectation of players. At this point, if a person still feels HoT’s expectations to be unfair, it is highly unlikely anything major is going to change.

PopeUrban.2578:

Casual

People keep using that word, without understanding what it means.

Casual is a distinction in amount played, not skill brought to the table.

I would argue that the meaning of some words, like casual, is so subjective as to be a useless term for debates. Even if we take it as a distinction in amount played, where is the line? How much do you have to play to go from casual to ..elite?

I value any attempt to clarify something but I think in the case of ‘casual’ we’re doomed to haggle over the meaning, if we’re looking for an absolute one. I think the only use we’re going to get out of it is in relative comparisons; e.g. Person X plays Y hours. I play Y + 5 hours, therefore person X is more casual than me.

Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post and I do (now) enjoy the difficulty of HOT. It’s even got me excited to see what the next expansion might bring and.. if it might be a little harder still.

EDIT: typo

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

PopeUrban.2578:

Casual

People keep using that word, without understanding what it means.

Casual is a distinction in amount played, not skill brought to the table.

I would argue that the meaning of some words, like casual, is so subjective as to be a useless term for debates. Even if we take it as a distinction in amount played, where is the line? How much do you have to play to go from casual to ..elite?

I value any attempt to clarify something but I think in the case of ‘casual’ we’re doomed to haggle over the meaning, if we’re looking for an absolute one. I think the only use we’re going to get out of it is in relative comparisons; e.g. Person X plays Y hours. I play Y + 5 hours, therefore person X is more casual than me.

Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post and I do (now) enjoy the difficulty of HOT. It’s even got me excited to see what the next expansion might bring and.. if it might be a little harder still.

EDIT: typo

It doesnt matter, casual has an actual definition you use the word within the realm of the actual definition, not something based off ones opinion.

I am confused, is the Danicus.4952 dude the OP? Or the OP delete the first post? I mean, who is that OP he is referring to?

SkyShroud.2865:

I am confused, is the Danicus.4952 dude the OP? Or the OP delete the first post? I mean, who is that OP he is referring to?

OP is both the Opening Post and the Opening Poster, that is s/he is referring to the post that started it all in this tread.

Ryou.2398:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

PopeUrban.2578:

Casual

People keep using that word, without understanding what it means.

Casual is a distinction in amount played, not skill brought to the table.

I would argue that the meaning of some words, like casual, is so subjective as to be a useless term for debates. Even if we take it as a distinction in amount played, where is the line? How much do you have to play to go from casual to ..elite?

I value any attempt to clarify something but I think in the case of ‘casual’ we’re doomed to haggle over the meaning, if we’re looking for an absolute one. I think the only use we’re going to get out of it is in relative comparisons; e.g. Person X plays Y hours. I play Y + 5 hours, therefore person X is more casual than me.

Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post and I do (now) enjoy the difficulty of HOT. It’s even got me excited to see what the next expansion might bring and.. if it might be a little harder still.

EDIT: typo

It doesnt matter, casual has an actual definition you use the word within the realm of the actual definition, not something based off ones opinion.

Definitions evolve over time. Definitions are static, while communication is dynamic.Terms get adapted to mean different things. In the process, communication can be… interesting, and misunderstandings happen.

Just on these boards, “casual” is being used to mean: lesser amounts of time spent; preference for a more relaxed experience over a more adrenaline-inducing one; a preference to just play aimlessly rather than to pursue a goal relentlessly; and doubtless other meanings.

It certainly doesn’t hurt to define such a word for oneself. That certainly lets readers understand your posts better. However, whether it’s “correct” to try to hold other people to that definition or not, it’s not going to happen.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ayrilana.1396:

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Yeah Orr at launch was hell. It made HoT look like a walk in the park. The silverwastes was hard the first time you walked in there. Not too bad, but a nice little challenge.

and how did that work out?
they had to nerf it twice, and its still one of the most unpopular maps

battledrone.8315:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ayrilana.1396:

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Yeah Orr at launch was hell. It made HoT look like a walk in the park. The silverwastes was hard the first time you walked in there. Not too bad, but a nice little challenge.

and how did that work out?
they had to nerf it twice, and its still one of the most unpopular maps

You’re just trolling yourself now, Cursed Shore and Silverwastes are incredibly popular farming maps.

I completely get where the OP is coming from.

As I mentioned in another thread, I am now making some progress in HoT. I’ve completed VB and got 2 or 3 tiers in each of the masteries, more in gliding, and I’ve unlocked most of the waypoints in the other maps. But I can’t really say I’m enjoying it. It’s not exactly a chore but it’s not something I particularly look forward to.

Example: Yesterday one of the dailies was Auric Basin events. I jumped in and found an event. There was no-one around so I put up the mentor tag and pinged the event in chat and started doing the it. No-one turned up to help and it was obvious that I was not making enough of an impact on my own so I bailed out and went looking for another event.

I soon stumbled onto an event chain that had a handful of players so I tagged along. We did three events, 75% of the daily, then ended up at a “significant boss”. Can’t remember the name but it was the one where you have to throw rocks off a ledge to break the bar. I’ve done it once before so I know how it works. Unfortunately, there were only a couple of us throwing rocks with the rest at ground level. The break bar kept going down to zero then jumping back up to full. After a few minutes we had not made any progress. Inevitably someone started getting upset in chat. I started to type instructions in chat and then I thought “You know what, I can’t be bothered with this.” so I just wandered off and left them to it.

Then rather than go in search of another event to complete the daily I hopped over to Sparkfly Fen and farmed mats for a while then went off to work. And that’s how HoT makes me feel. I’ll continue going there to advance the (painfully slow!) XP bar but I have no real enthusiasm for it. It’s just not a happy place for me.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

PopeUrban.2578:

Casual

People keep using that word, without understanding what it means.

Casual is a distinction in amount played, not skill brought to the table.

I would argue that the meaning of some words, like casual, is so subjective as to be a useless term for debates. Even if we take it as a distinction in amount played, where is the line? How much do you have to play to go from casual to ..elite?

I value any attempt to clarify something but I think in the case of ‘casual’ we’re doomed to haggle over the meaning, if we’re looking for an absolute one. I think the only use we’re going to get out of it is in relative comparisons; e.g. Person X plays Y hours. I play Y + 5 hours, therefore person X is more casual than me.

Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post and I do (now) enjoy the difficulty of HOT. It’s even got me excited to see what the next expansion might bring and.. if it might be a little harder still.

EDIT: typo

It doesnt matter, casual has an actual definition you use the word within the realm of the actual definition, not something based off ones opinion.

Definitions evolve over time. Definitions are static, while communication is dynamic.Terms get adapted to mean different things. In the process, communication can be… interesting, and misunderstandings happen.

Just on these boards, “casual” is being used to mean: lesser amounts of time spent; preference for a more relaxed experience over a more adrenaline-inducing one; a preference to just play aimlessly rather than to pursue a goal relentlessly; and doubtless other meanings.

It certainly doesn’t hurt to define such a word for oneself. That certainly lets readers understand your posts better. However, whether it’s “correct” to try to hold other people to that definition or not, it’s not going to happen.

I disagree, we cannot change the meaning of the word just because it fits our opinion, we need a universal langauge of set in stone definitions in the first place, make up your own instead of hijacking another word if you want to do that. And casual means laid back or not dedicating allot of time, or even little effort so it can be used for gamers who dont want to put much into a game with good rewards.

Danicus.4952:

I am an experienced casual player. 13K APs, 950 WVW rank, Closer to the Stars, done dungeons, raids, crafted ascended gear etc, etc.

Anyone with a list of achievements isn’t casual.

Danicus.4952:

I personally find HOT uninviting as a solo PVE player

What does being a solo PVE player have to do with anything?

Danicus.4952:

I find myself now checking in, hitting the daily and getting out.

This is something you’ve always been able to do. Sounds like you are tired of GW2 as a whole, not HoT.

I really don’t know why people log in for the dailies. I have a massive Steam library, I can’t imagine logging into all my games, doing something, logging out and then writing up my lack of achievement on all those games forums.

BrotherBelial.3094:

HoT is not hard, not at all. If anything core Tyria is too easy. HoT is easy mode if you play a ranged class. My ranger face rolled through HoT in exotic gear with some green trinkets. I only got the HoT pets after I had finished the story. The hero challenges only really need 2 people to do them, I did everyone on AB with 2 others and they where really easy to do with my warrior. Some can be soloed. As long as you have enough room to move and your only fighting the one mob. With my other warrior I soloed the arrow head, king mushroom, chak blitzer. It’s also about what weapons you use also. A lot of fights are easier at range. Like I said if you have space the fights are easy.

Most people’s problem with HoT is they think they can face tank everything like they did in the core game. People are unwilling to change tactics. I used to be quite rigid myself. I wanted to play with the weapons I wanted to play with. Then I realised that they would not always be the best option for some fights. So I changed my ways. I tried different things. And I found things a lot easier.

This I feel is the main cause of peoples frustration with HoT. There unwillingness to try a different approach.

I feel the need to highlight the importance of range in HoT. Over-importance, actually.

I started off in HoT with my warrior, and that led to some huge dissatisfaction with the expansion overall. I was jealous of how easy-mode it felt to do the same content with ranger and mesmer, or even a bowzerker. None of that felt like warrior play. Again, I’ve adjusted, and I’m doing well now, I can certainly empathize with the complaints.

But it’s that same over-reliance on range that’s keeping one of my friends from even looking at the expansion. It’s frustrating to see ANet’s creature designs constantly hate on melee. Yes, there is supposed to be more risk-reward in melee, but to look at some of the creature designs, it heavily skews toward “range only or tableflip”. Honestly, this isn’t just in HoT, either; core has a number of fights like that as well.

That aside, I’m approaching somewhat positive affect for HoT (after 9 months :P). In between some of the lazier designs of critters that have literally one attack, I find myself more active around Mordrem and the more intelligent foes, and I kinda like it. So I guess HoT grows on you if you stay with it long enough and adapt.

battledrone.8315:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ayrilana.1396:

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Yeah Orr at launch was hell. It made HoT look like a walk in the park. The silverwastes was hard the first time you walked in there. Not too bad, but a nice little challenge.

and how did that work out?
they had to nerf it twice, and its still one of the most unpopular maps

I’d love to see some evidence that it’s one of the most unpopular maps. I don’t think that was ever the case. Still plenty of people running around Orr.

Ryou.2398:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ryou.2398:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

PopeUrban.2578:

Casual

People keep using that word, without understanding what it means.

Casual is a distinction in amount played, not skill brought to the table.

I would argue that the meaning of some words, like casual, is so subjective as to be a useless term for debates. Even if we take it as a distinction in amount played, where is the line? How much do you have to play to go from casual to ..elite?

I value any attempt to clarify something but I think in the case of ‘casual’ we’re doomed to haggle over the meaning, if we’re looking for an absolute one. I think the only use we’re going to get out of it is in relative comparisons; e.g. Person X plays Y hours. I play Y + 5 hours, therefore person X is more casual than me.

Apart from that, I agree with the rest of your post and I do (now) enjoy the difficulty of HOT. It’s even got me excited to see what the next expansion might bring and.. if it might be a little harder still.

EDIT: typo

It doesnt matter, casual has an actual definition you use the word within the realm of the actual definition, not something based off ones opinion.

Definitions evolve over time. Definitions are static, while communication is dynamic.Terms get adapted to mean different things. In the process, communication can be… interesting, and misunderstandings happen.

Just on these boards, “casual” is being used to mean: lesser amounts of time spent; preference for a more relaxed experience over a more adrenaline-inducing one; a preference to just play aimlessly rather than to pursue a goal relentlessly; and doubtless other meanings.

It certainly doesn’t hurt to define such a word for oneself. That certainly lets readers understand your posts better. However, whether it’s “correct” to try to hold other people to that definition or not, it’s not going to happen.

I disagree, we cannot change the meaning of the word just because it fits our opinion, we need a universal langauge of set in stone definitions in the first place, make up your own instead of hijacking another word if you want to do that. And casual means laid back or not dedicating allot of time, or even little effort so it can be used for gamers who dont want to put much into a game with good rewards.

You can disagree all you like, but that isn’t going to change the fact that people do adapt words and aren’t going to stop doing so because you think they should.

The game gets much easier when you unlock your mobility masteries.

I was having trouble getting to places without high level gliding. That’s why I have such a hard time.

But after I unlock the masteries each HOT maps took me roughly 1 hour to complete on alts. Hope this can be encouraging to people because it do get easier.

We already have this discussion going on in another thread, but ok. @OP

First, I just want to say, defining your self as casual, hardcore, semi casual, etc has absolutely no bearings on skill. I know some pretty hardcore people that play many hours a day, and they absolutely suck at the game. In contrast I know quiet a few people that play casually maybe 1 or two hours a day that are on the much higher end of the spectrum.

Anyways, HoT isn’t hard. It’s built to be social and in many aspects it’s events are geared away from zerging. Take Verdant Brink for example. In order for the map to get tier 4 at night, the map has to split up into small groups and hold camps. A zerg would fail horribly at doing this. The other maps follow similar patterns. Dragon stand is an exception to this and yes in some cases like auric basin we have found ways to zerg the content because we have adapted and gotten used to it. Most of HoT problems are social problems, not communicating or being able to find people.

Third, Most of the mob encounters in HoT require a different approach. Sometimes you need cc for breakbars, sometimes you need aoes for pocket raptors, sometimes you need just cold hard single target dps, and sometimes you need to not stand on that red line. That makes them really hard for people that do not adapt. Which is why a lot of people say L2P.

Lastly, most peoples complaints about hot being too hard is that hero points aren’t soloable. Most of them are. There is a few champion mobs that aren’t, which frankly how many champions have you ever soloed in core tyria? There is more than enough hero points that are soloable (I know I’ve done one of every elite specs). My response to this complaint is go look up info and find out which ones are soloable and are not. It might take you 20 mins to do so but save you hours of frustration.

All and all HoT isn’t hard at all, and if you think it is than I hate to be that guy, but you need to learn to adapt and play the game arena net have made for you.

I think that some people do not know or maybe forget that human beings have not only different reaction times and frustration threshold but also learn automated instinctual reactions at a different pace, so L2P deficiency is not simply a matter of laziness or spite as the ‘git gud’ bros often present it as.

Eval.2371:

Lastly, most peoples complaints about hot being too hard is that hero points aren’t soloable. Most of them are. There is a few champion mobs that aren’t, which frankly how many champions have you ever soloed in core tyria? There is more than enough hero points that are soloable (I know I’ve done one of every elite specs). My response to this complaint is go look up info and find out which ones are soloable and are not. It might take you 20 mins to do so but save you hours of frustration.

Frankly, I’ve soloed a lot more Champions in core than I have in HoT. The issue isn’t (in my mind at least) that there are “enough” HP’s available to unlock specs, it’s that HC’s are part of map exploration and that is about the only thing in core that rewards anything substantive to the player who prefers to solo. Yet, those rewards are paltry compared to what’s on offer if you do the herd events. In HoT, that part of exploration has been turned — at least in part — into an activity better done with a herd.

Also, up to now I’m still seeing people respond to requests for help at group event HC’s. However, what happens when the next XPac comes out? Surely Anet wants as many players as possible who did not buy HoT to buy the next one. Say they do. Now they’re trudging around HoT trying to do map complete and all of the early HoT adopters are gone. How tenable will these HC’s be, then?

Eval.2371:

All and all HoT isn’t hard at all, and if you think it is than I hate to be that guy, but you need to learn to adapt and play the game arena net have made for you.

With regard to “Shut up and play the game Anet made.” there is no difference between complaining about HoT being hard and complaining about core being easy. Would there have been increased difficulty in HoT if the people who complained about lack of difficulty had remained silent? With that kind of precedent, your advice is going to be ignored.

All of that said, I actually agree that HoT mobs, while objectively harder than some in core, can be mastered by average players. I also don’t think they are really harder than some in core (like some Karka; Molten Alliance; Aetherblades; Toxic Alliance; Revamped Risen; and revamped Krait). Thing is, players have by-and-large adapted to those mobs (or just avoid areas like SSC).

I think that a lot of the complaints about HoT difficulty stem from a combination of factors that make the zones tedious rather than fun for some people, like accessibility, navigation and gating. A harder mob can be learned or avoided, but someone could be cheesed off because they’ve been trying unsuccessfully to get to a Mastery Point for an hour without using a Dulfy video. Frustration engenders a mental state foreign to the patience needed to adapt one’s play to mobs.

Maybe titling something “L2P” is not the best way to engage with others in the community.

Rauderi.8706:

BrotherBelial.3094:

HoT is not hard, not at all. If anything core Tyria is too easy. HoT is easy mode if you play a ranged class. My ranger face rolled through HoT in exotic gear with some green trinkets. I only got the HoT pets after I had finished the story. The hero challenges only really need 2 people to do them, I did everyone on AB with 2 others and they where really easy to do with my warrior. Some can be soloed. As long as you have enough room to move and your only fighting the one mob. With my other warrior I soloed the arrow head, king mushroom, chak blitzer. It’s also about what weapons you use also. A lot of fights are easier at range. Like I said if you have space the fights are easy.

Most people’s problem with HoT is they think they can face tank everything like they did in the core game. People are unwilling to change tactics. I used to be quite rigid myself. I wanted to play with the weapons I wanted to play with. Then I realised that they would not always be the best option for some fights. So I changed my ways. I tried different things. And I found things a lot easier.

This I feel is the main cause of peoples frustration with HoT. There unwillingness to try a different approach.

I feel the need to highlight the importance of range in HoT. Over-importance, actually.

I started off in HoT with my warrior, and that led to some huge dissatisfaction with the expansion overall. I was jealous of how easy-mode it felt to do the same content with ranger and mesmer, or even a bowzerker. None of that felt like warrior play. Again, I’ve adjusted, and I’m doing well now, I can certainly empathize with the complaints.

But it’s that same over-reliance on range that’s keeping one of my friends from even looking at the expansion. It’s frustrating to see ANet’s creature designs constantly hate on melee. Yes, there is supposed to be more risk-reward in melee, but to look at some of the creature designs, it heavily skews toward “range only or tableflip”. Honestly, this isn’t just in HoT, either; core has a number of fights like that as well.

That aside, I’m approaching somewhat positive affect for HoT (after 9 months :P). In between some of the lazier designs of critters that have literally one attack, I find myself more active around Mordrem and the more intelligent foes, and I kinda like it. So I guess HoT grows on you if you stay with it long enough and adapt.

Elite spec warrior can melee most HC’s if you have the space. I soloed several HC’s today in AB and VB for map completion today. The Golem HC’s in both maps I soloed, vinetooth, Tengui and the tarnished HC’s. My weapons of choice where duel Axe, sword and torch. People could probably solo them all, but some are very limited on space. And this is what makes them hard, not to mention several are very close to other mobs.

L2P approuch isn’t bad when truly embraced: I’m sure in other threads some of the forum members (me included) have actually posted multiple tips and examples to better overcome HoT challenges. This is the correct way to give someone the L2P treatment.

Simply telling someone to learn to play without actually teaching them anything doesn’t benefit the community or the game. It is not a contribution or an argumentation. It is just being a jerk.

To the OP…

/slowclap

Oh so very well done.

/removetonguefromcheek

I find HoT (so far) challenges me to the exact point that I wouldn’t like it any more difficult. Orr (sic), any less. Not everyone on this planet is caffeine fuelled twitch monkey gaming god. I’m old and like my games leisurely and fun filled – which GW2 is.

But, yes, thank you for your input.

EDIT: spelling errors

I didn’t find any of it to be really “hard”, but there was plenty that was annoying. I am also more of a “solo” player if I am doing PvE, I can’t have my WvW friends knowing that I am doing PvE so I must do it alone.

Kidding aside, soloing a lot of those hero points was either a major pain or just impossible. I did require help from map chat or from friends to complete a decent amount of the hero points from HoT areas, but I suppose it encourages group play and meeting people, which is what MMOs are traditionally about anyway.

Danicus.4952:

I personally find HOT uninviting as a solo PVE player. It lacks the difficulty progression structure present in most games. It demands group (zerg) participation for individual rewards. It requires the development of mobility masteries to effectively access map areas efficiently. It loads the player with an ocean of inventory filling currencies or keys. It creates an unprecedented level of grind for goals.

I get bored pretty quickly doing the same few events on the HoT maps. The structure with the timers doesn’t really appeal. Hoping all future maps aren’t going to be exactly like these, but we’ll have to see. They might be. Masteries are pretty grindy, I think. Most of them haven’t done me much good, so it would have been nice to pick and choose. Grinding through long lines of XP just to get to a mastery skill I actually want and will use is kind of mind-numbing.

The real issue is the Mega Server. Where only one map is doing the Meta and if you are not on it 5-10 mins before the beginning then there is a good chance you may not do the meta at all.

I had my Warrior using Soldier stats and with a Sword, Shield and a longbow. I had to change this for HoT because they mashed through my health quite quickly with my damage obviously not being my best asset which meant I had to go dps gear.

Now from what I know most people go dps gear, how is it getting people to try new things when the content kinda twisted my arm into doing what everyone else was doing? Now my Warrior (Now a Berserker) gets through but I used to love the character but HoT has constantly thrown things at me that have made me not enjoy it.

It also feels like they did a rush job on the story just so they could work on this Meta content, There are so many plot paths that are now gone and some of them I had high hopes for (Especially Faolin and the Nightmare court) now I couldn’t care less about the Nightmare court.

Sorry went on about story and this is not the place for that so will just leave with this:

HoT has been a rocky road to begin with and the nerfed classes or buffed up rewards are only covering the problem not fixing it.

@Indigo Sundown

In regards to HoT being so unpopulated that you won’t be able to do hero points, with the mega server technology that’s pretty unlikely to happen at least not for many years.

I don’t know how many people are playing this game at any instant, but even old servers (before the game was free to play) usually had people to help you out, no matter what time I was playing. If I tagged up and used map chat, I’d get people. Anywhere any time, almost all the time. Maybe on a rare occasion I wouldn’t …but the next time I would anyway.

Out of all the people playing at any given time, are we assuming people won’t be running the HoT zones at all?

I mean hell there’s an entire guild dedicated to running Dry Top.

If the need is there, guilds will form for that too.

And in a worst case scenario you can make a friend or join a guild. I can’t think of any point in any map I can’t three man.

Daroon.1736:

Ardid.7203:

However, I will comment about those other, “frustrated with HOT” posters who fill the forum with angry threads. Most of them are not like you, or at least, they don’t show the respect and good intention you are showing.

Most try to speak in name of every one. Most aren’t open to any discussion. Most don’t make any research before writing. Most don’t want to even try. Most don’t even try to be rational.

Their typical argumentation boils down to:
“I’m representig all Gw2 players, I can’t win, I’m frustrated, this thing is trash, nerf NOW, anyone who don’t agree with me is a White Knight, I will NOT try to learn, I paid to not learn, I’m entitled to ask anything”.

These guys/gals DESERVE the L2P treatment, and, IMHO, they don’t deserve your support.

Every map in HOT was designed to be played by large groups of players working together
however the system that underpins the whole design philosophy (Megaservers) is (and has been well prior to the launch of HOT) utterly broken.

No one should be telling other players to LTP – everyone should be questioning why Anet designed a whole expansion around a broken megaserver system and six months after launch we are still waiting for them to fix it.

It’s quite simple – If the maps were full, no one would need to play ‘solo’ and virtually all of the HOT Unplayable threads would vanish.

Fix Megaservers, Fix HOT

The problem, of course, is the megaserver system isn’t working quite as intended for HoT maps. But the maps wouldn’t work at all without Megaservers dynamically adjusting the number of maps to match the number of interested players. And honestly – I think this is actually a playerbase-caused issue, not an inherent megaserver one. If players didn’t taxi into and out of HoT maps, everything would probably work out fine as the Megaservers randomly assign people to a suitable number of maps, filling each one with an appropriate blend of active participants and passive solo players to get all the maps functioning at a reasonable rate. Instead, thanks to Megaservers, all the active participants taxi to active maps (And event hunters taxi to maps running the events they’re immediately interested in), leaving the solo/casual roamers in dead maps… and the Event Hunters constantly shifting between maps are causing maps to close and open prematurely, ruining it for the long-haul Meta Runners. So that is why we have the current clusterkitten on the maps.

Of course, they HAVE to have megaservers because of server population and coverage imbalance. And they have to allow taxiing so guildmates, friends, and the like can all party and play on the same map instance.

Of course, I think the developers made the maps this way because, on the rare occasions the system does work and the maps are filled with a blend of all sorts of people doing their own thing scattered throughout the maps (Both, solo farming/roaming and organically teaming up and drifting apart to do the events), they’re an absolute blast. But just solo roaming isn’t fun without the event-runners advancing the meta and map, and event-running isn’t as fun when EVERYONE is in on the events turning it into a blob.

Vayne.8563:

@Indigo Sundown

In regards to HoT being so unpopulated that you won’t be able to do hero points, with the mega server technology that’s pretty unlikely to happen at least not for many years.

I don’t know how many people are playing this game at any instant, but even old servers (before the game was free to play) usually had people to help you out, no matter what time I was playing. If I tagged up and used map chat, I’d get people. Anywhere any time, almost all the time. Maybe on a rare occasion I wouldn’t …but the next time I would anyway.

Out of all the people playing at any given time, are we assuming people won’t be running the HoT zones at all?

I mean hell there’s an entire guild dedicated to running Dry Top.

If the need is there, guilds will form for that too.

And in a worst case scenario you can make a friend or join a guild. I can’t think of any point in any map I can’t three man.

If I had any confidence in ANet’s ability to fix megaservers, I might agree with you.

There is a lot of easy content in Gw2. I am happy HoT encourages partnering and grouping, though I still solo much of it. I think it should go further in that direction and offer better rewards for doing so.

It is not about excluding casual solo players but providing engaging and challenging content for people who want to play in a team or solo in hard mode.

I have noticed that the new Shatterer event fails a lot and hope new and casual players can step up to defeat it more regularly before testing themselves in HoT.

Daroon.1736:

Ardid.7203:

However, I will comment about those other, “frustrated with HOT” posters who fill the forum with angry threads. Most of them are not like you, or at least, they don’t show the respect and good intention you are showing.

Most try to speak in name of every one. Most aren’t open to any discussion. Most don’t make any research before writing. Most don’t want to even try. Most don’t even try to be rational.

Their typical argumentation boils down to:
“I’m representig all Gw2 players, I can’t win, I’m frustrated, this thing is trash, nerf NOW, anyone who don’t agree with me is a White Knight, I will NOT try to learn, I paid to not learn, I’m entitled to ask anything”.

These guys/gals DESERVE the L2P treatment, and, IMHO, they don’t deserve your support.

Every map in HOT was designed to be played by large groups of players working together
however the system that underpins the whole design philosophy (Megaservers) is (and has been well prior to the launch of HOT) utterly broken.

No one should be telling other players to LTP – everyone should be questioning why Anet designed a whole expansion around a broken megaserver system and six months after launch we are still waiting for them to fix it.

It’s quite simple – If the maps were full, no one would need to play ‘solo’ and virtually all of the HOT Unplayable threads would vanish.

Fix Megaservers, Fix HOT

Why not just go to LFG and join a squad?

Problem fixed.

General Health.9678:

battledrone.8315:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ayrilana.1396:

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Yeah Orr at launch was hell. It made HoT look like a walk in the park. The silverwastes was hard the first time you walked in there. Not too bad, but a nice little challenge.

and how did that work out?
they had to nerf it twice, and its still one of the most unpopular maps

You’re just trolling yourself now, Cursed Shore and Silverwastes are incredibly popular farming maps.

“FARMING maps”
there is the reason..nerf the rewards, and you would see how popular they really are
then i could easily deduct , that most people like to go to work
they dont, they just like to have some money

BrotherBelial.3094:

Danicus.4952:

I am an experienced casual player. 13K APs, 950 WVW rank, Closer to the Stars, done dungeons, raids, crafted ascended gear etc, etc. I’ve read quite a few honest postings about frustrations with HOT, and the trend in responses has been to respond to the OP by saying “learn to play better” or “I did it just fine, there is something the matter with you.”

I personally find HOT uninviting as a solo PVE player. It lacks the difficulty progression structure present in most games. It demands group (zerg) participation for individual rewards. It requires the development of mobility masteries to effectively access map areas efficiently. It loads the player with an ocean of inventory filling currencies or keys. It creates an unprecedented level of grind for goals.

I’ve completed the HOT personal story with a rev, and moved partially through with 4 other characters.

I’ve completed the new specializations with all classes. I find them fun and interesting additions to the game (imo the best part of the expansion) – getting HOT HPs pretty annoying of course. I must admit, I turned in some WVW credits to unlock some HOT HPs.

I was really looking forward to HOT, but am truly ambivalent about the expansion maps at this point – even with the nerfs.

I find myself now checking in, hitting the daily and getting out.

Pretty sure I won’t buy another GW2 expansion – especially if it follows the map design and skill progression structure HOT model. It’s a shame – I am a long time dedicated GW player – sorry to see the franchise pick this path.

My core point is, telling an OP that is frustrated with HOT to “L2P” or “I did it, what is the matter with you?” is missing the mark. There are authentic design departures here, and they are not friendly to the casual player.

HoT is not hard, not at all. If anything core Tyria is too easy. HoT is easy mode if you play a ranged class. My ranger face rolled through HoT in exotic gear with some green trinkets. I only got the HoT pets after I had finished the story. The hero challenges only really need 2 people to do them, I did everyone on AB with 2 others and they where really easy to do with my warrior. Some can be soloed. As long as you have enough room to move and your only fighting the one mob. With my other warrior I soloed the arrow head, king mushroom, chak blitzer. It’s also about what weapons you use also. Alot of fights are easier at range. Like I said if you have space the fights are easy.

Most peoples problems with HoT is they think they can face tank everything like they did in the core game. People are unwilling to change tactics. I used to be quite rigid myself. I wanted to play with the weapons I wanted to play with. Then I realised that they would not always be the best option for some fights. So I changed my ways. I tried different things. And I found things alot easier.

This I feel is the main cause of peoples frustration with HoT. There unwillingness to try a different approach.

Good for you! I on the other hand have adopted the “play it your way” motto long before Arenanet used it as a marketing tool. So, if a game denies me my playstyle with a certain class ( weapon, build etc ) I change the class. If that doesnt work I change the game.

If folks want to play melee and tank (with dodges and blocks of course) they should be able to build for it and play it. I have invested in gear making my War into a 25k HP, 3000 armor monster, so he should be able to fight almost anything with his GS. If not then Arenanet failed. This is how I see things, surely many people have different takes on the matter. Fact is GW2 shows a drop in profit according to NCsoft data. HoT aint so hot after all.

Josh XT.6053:

I didn’t find any of it to be really “hard”, but there was plenty that was annoying. I am also more of a “solo” player if I am doing PvE, I can’t have my WvW friends knowing that I am doing PvE so I must do it alone.

Kidding aside, soloing a lot of those hero points was either a major pain or just impossible. I did require help from map chat or from friends to complete a decent amount of the hero points from HoT areas, but I suppose it encourages group play and meeting people, which is what MMOs are traditionally about anyway.

“encourages group play”

Does it really? How many times after you called people to help with a HP did you remain in a party with said people for more shared activities?

I’ve called people for HP help too and after its done we all type a “ty” in chat and go about our merry way. There is no such thing as forcing people into groups, it doesnt exist. People either get together because they want or they dont regardless of content being easy or hard.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

@Indigo Sundown

In regards to HoT being so unpopulated that you won’t be able to do hero points, with the mega server technology that’s pretty unlikely to happen at least not for many years.

I don’t know how many people are playing this game at any instant, but even old servers (before the game was free to play) usually had people to help you out, no matter what time I was playing. If I tagged up and used map chat, I’d get people. Anywhere any time, almost all the time. Maybe on a rare occasion I wouldn’t …but the next time I would anyway.

Out of all the people playing at any given time, are we assuming people won’t be running the HoT zones at all?

I mean hell there’s an entire guild dedicated to running Dry Top.

If the need is there, guilds will form for that too.

And in a worst case scenario you can make a friend or join a guild. I can’t think of any point in any map I can’t three man.

If I had any confidence in ANet’s ability to fix megaservers, I might agree with you.

Seriously what major concern haven’t they fixed. It’s not a question of if…it’s a question of manpower. Did they fix culling. Sure. It took ages but they fixed it. They fixed the down hill bug that killed people. They’ve fixed stuff that’s important all along, but it takes them a long time.

I strongly suspect that the pressure they put on people to work faster means that coders don’t document their work properly due to feeling rushed. So when they leave and new people have to decipher their code it takes much much longer for them to fix it.

That doesn’t mean they’re incapable of fixing it. It means not enough attention was paid to documentation to make it faster/easier to fix. It’s like being wise with pennies but losing dollars. Documentation on coding is massively important.

But Anet’s coders are top notch. Look at how other MMOs handled maintenance and updates. Guild Wars 2 is better than almost all of them. Very little down time compared to almost every MMO I’ve played.

The programming is fine. And the famous Susan is one of the head server designers, she’s still there after 12 years.

They have plenty of ability. It just takes them a long time.

pepsis.5384:

Josh XT.6053:

I didn’t find any of it to be really “hard”, but there was plenty that was annoying. I am also more of a “solo” player if I am doing PvE, I can’t have my WvW friends knowing that I am doing PvE so I must do it alone.

Kidding aside, soloing a lot of those hero points was either a major pain or just impossible. I did require help from map chat or from friends to complete a decent amount of the hero points from HoT areas, but I suppose it encourages group play and meeting people, which is what MMOs are traditionally about anyway.

“encourages group play”

Does it really? How many times after you called people to help with a HP did you remain in a party with said people for more shared activities?

I’ve called people for HP help too and after its done we all type a “ty” in chat and go about our merry way. There is no such thing as forcing people into groups, it doesnt exist. People either get together because they want or they dont regardless of content being easy or hard.

Encouraging group play isn’t the same as forcing group play though. It encourages group play which is why you see so many hero point trains. You don’t have to join them but man it’s convenient. And I can’t think of anything more convenient than encouraging group play.

I go spend an hour and a half in DS you can bet I join a squad and play with the group.

Sure it’s a choice. But I feel encouraged to join a group, just not forced. And forcing, in my opinion, would be bad.

battledrone.8315:

General Health.9678:

battledrone.8315:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ayrilana.1396:

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Yeah Orr at launch was hell. It made HoT look like a walk in the park. The silverwastes was hard the first time you walked in there. Not too bad, but a nice little challenge.

and how did that work out?
they had to nerf it twice, and its still one of the most unpopular maps

You’re just trolling yourself now, Cursed Shore and Silverwastes are incredibly popular farming maps.

“FARMING maps”
there is the reason..nerf the rewards, and you would see how popular they really are
then i could easily deduct , that most people like to go to work
they dont, they just like to have some money

First of all some people even many like farming. It’s something they enjoy. And when the rewards were worse, I was still getting full servers on every map if I used the LFG tool, so it wouldn’t show anything to reduce the rewards. Are there more people now? Sure. Were there plenty of people before the update. Yes, there were.

So I don’t know what you’re on about.

battledrone.8315:

still one of the most unpopular maps

me:
incredibly popular farming maps.

you:
nerf the rewards, and you would see how popular they really are

I think we’ve seen how really popular they are. You said they were unpopular so are you now disagreeing with yourself?

In this thread: bads complain about this dumbed down joke of a PvE game
This is the future of gaming. In 5 years poor Anet will have to design raid bosses with 0 mechanics, no timer, around 50 health and the only attack will be a telegraphed smash that deals 5% of player’s max HP with a 50 seconds cooldown. Bravo people, bravo.

On a more …?(I’d say serious but that was as serious as it gets) whatever, if you find HoT hard, there’s 2 things you can do:
a) if you want to renounce most of your damage, it’s fine, you can always bulk up, change to defensive traits, and you’ll literally never die, whatever class you’ll play
b) if you want to keep dealing top tier dps while playing a glass canon and still survive(so basically everyone in this game) the only thing you can do is actually get far better at the game(git gud).

But obviously, it’s never the player’s fault. If somebody horrible at the game(so again, like literally 99% of the people playing gw2) die to something, it’s never their fault. The game is waaaay too hard and we need more nerfs. Go on Anet, please oblige.

PS: could you also please remove like, the monsters from hoT? They’re mean and scary and I simply can’t 1shot them like I was doing in Tyria. Bug?

General Health.9678:

battledrone.8315:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ayrilana.1396:

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Yeah Orr at launch was hell. It made HoT look like a walk in the park. The silverwastes was hard the first time you walked in there. Not too bad, but a nice little challenge.

and how did that work out?
they had to nerf it twice, and its still one of the most unpopular maps

You’re just trolling yourself now, Cursed Shore and Silverwastes are incredibly popular farming maps.

They are now, Cursed Shore was hated at release and first few years, now its popular because its a lot easier to navigate and enjoy ones self, no clue about silverwastes it didn’t exist.

I didn’t find any of it to be really “hard”, but there was plenty that was annoying. I am also more of a “solo” player if I am doing PvE, I can’t have my WvW friends knowing that I am doing PvE so I must do it alone.

Kidding aside, soloing a lot of those hero points was either a major pain or just impossible. I did require help from map chat or from friends to complete a decent amount of the hero points from HoT areas, but I suppose it encourages group play and meeting people, which is what MMOs are traditionally about anyway.

No “encourages people to avoid them completely”

Dante.1508:

General Health.9678:

battledrone.8315:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Ayrilana.1396:

Play in Orr. The difficulty jumped when you reached that map. you also saw it in Silverwastes. There was a progression from a map like Queensdale to a map like Tangled Depths. It just wasn’t a forced, linear path.

Yeah Orr at launch was hell. It made HoT look like a walk in the park. The silverwastes was hard the first time you walked in there. Not too bad, but a nice little challenge.

and how did that work out?
they had to nerf it twice, and its still one of the most unpopular maps

You’re just trolling yourself now, Cursed Shore and Silverwastes are incredibly popular farming maps.

They are now, Cursed Shore was hated at release and first few years, now its popular because its a lot easier to navigate and enjoy ones self, no clue about silverwastes it didn’t exist.

Silverwastes is one of the more popular maps in the game, even when you discount the chest trains. And the only thing solo-friendly in it is the Skritt stuff below the Northern Silverwastes.

No “encourages people to avoid them completely”

Not if they want the point and rewards (Map rewards, Karma, and loot, in addition to the Hero Points, encouraging people to help others get them even if they’ve already gotten the points themselves)

Thank you all for the cogent responses. After reading the comments to date, I would like to make a few small clarifications. My primary concern is not one of difficulty. Well conceived challenging content is a good thing. I don’t want additional nerfs. What I ineffectively articulated was that the design choices in the expansion diminish population access, and when people express their frustration, it is not productive to engage in ad hominem attacks about their skill or understanding of what an MMO is.

Consider the first HOT map zone for example. Run out of endurance while gliding and fall to your death in pulsing vine twitch. This insta-kill feature is not present on later maps. Seems like an upside down design choice. Consider all of the character trapping map features in the wrecked ship canopy areas in the first zone. I typed in /stuck many many times. Consider all of the locked waypoints on all of the HOT maps (there has been improvement with this). Consider how movement becomes easier as you become more experienced – (an upside down player skill progression imo) when accessing areas. (Doesn’t it make more sense to need to develop skills to access the most challenging areas on later maps rather than the first map!) Consider how the terrain mesh and the 2d layered maps / minimap are purposefully obscure to make pathing difficult. Compound those concerns with convoluted 3d maps, group timer meta events, megaserver and lfg challenges, and it feels – that by design – HOT does not invite casual player drop in, play, drop out experiences.

Mob attack mechanics,placement and strength will always need to be tinkered with, so that’s not what I consider a HOT specific design issue. People are frustrated to some degree with that, I get it, but I think the underlying source of frustrations are about design choices and not difficulty.

Danicus.4952:

Thank you all for the cogent responses. After reading the comments to date, I would like to make a few small clarifications. My primary concern is not one of difficulty. Well conceived challenging content is a good thing. I don’t want additional nerfs. What I ineffectively articulated was that the design choices in the expansion diminish population access, and when people express their frustration, it is not productive to engage in ad hominem attacks about their skill or understanding of what an MMO is.

Consider the first HOT map zone for example. Run out of endurance while gliding and fall to your death in pulsing vine twitch. This insta-kill feature is not present on later maps. Seems like an upside down design choice. Consider all of the character trapping map features in the wrecked ship canopy areas in the first zone. I typed in /stuck many many times. Consider all of the locked waypoints on all of the HOT maps (there has been improvement with this). Consider how movement becomes easier as you become more experienced – (an upside down player skill progression imo) when accessing areas. (Doesn’t it make more sense to need to develop skills to access the most challenging areas on later maps rather than the first map!) Consider how the terrain mesh and the 2d layered maps / minimap are purposefully obscure to make pathing difficult. Compound those concerns with convoluted 3d maps, group timer meta events, megaserver and lfg challenges, and it feels – that by design – HOT does not invite casual player drop in, play, drop out experiences.

Mob attack mechanics,placement and strength will always need to be tinkered with, so that’s not what I consider a HOT specific design issue. People are frustrated to some degree with that, I get it, but I think the underlying source of frustrations are about design choices and not difficulty.

I think the idea they were trying to go for with HoT maps was a “Metroidvania”-style progression with the masteries. The first time through the maps, you’re supposed to take your time and see what they have to offer, with a few things locked behind higher-level masteries to allow for re-exploration, and other upgrades making the maps easier to navigate to reduce the tedium of backtracking through the massive maps, once you’ve already explored the new details.

There’s a lot of fun to be had in opening and learning maps, and truly exploring them and how they fit together (instead of just “Go here to hit Point A”)