Guild Wars 2

FrizzFreston.5290:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

nope working at a steady pace towards your goals is not actually the highest motivating rewards system

It’s way better than rewards you know you won’t get because they are intentionally kept out of your reach.

Both subjective.

phys.7689:

also, exclusive rewards actually doesnt mess up your paradigm of working at a steady pace towards your goals being the best answer.

Well, if i can’t work at a steady pace towards those rewards, they definitely do.

Technically, when you have decided it is out of reach, it stopped belonging to your goals.

Sure. Thus its motivational effect becomes zero

FrizzFreston.5290:

If you’re set on keeping unrealistic goals, then you have bigger problems.

Ah, then you agree. A goal that is intentionally placed beyond reach of majority of game population should not be pursued by those players, and thus its motivational effect should be nil (or even negative).
That’s exactly what i was saying before.

Astralporing.1957:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

nope working at a steady pace towards your goals is not actually the highest motivating rewards system

It’s way better than rewards you know you won’t get because they are intentionally kept out of your reach.

Both subjective.

phys.7689:

also, exclusive rewards actually doesnt mess up your paradigm of working at a steady pace towards your goals being the best answer.

Well, if i can’t work at a steady pace towards those rewards, they definitely do.

Technically, when you have decided it is out of reach, it stopped belonging to your goals.

Sure. Thus its motivational effect becomes zero

FrizzFreston.5290:

If you’re set on keeping unrealistic goals, then you have bigger problems.

Ah, then you agree. A goal that is intentionally placed beyond reach of majority of game population should not be pursued by those players, and thus its motivational effect should be nil (or even negative).
That’s exactly what i was saying before.

You just add unfounded numerical weight to it and add that the goal is intentionally designed unreachable, which is just nonsense. But yeah.

In my opinion, they shouldn’t have legendary armor sets for multiple areas of the game (wvw, pvp,pve, etc.). They should have an armor set that covers all aspects of the game. This armor should dictate legendary status. Just do pve and are not good at pvp? Tuff, you can’t get the armor. However, you can work towards it by practicing pvp. Same with pve and wvw. Pieces from all aspect of the game should be required to make it. The problem is, this content should be difficult rather than grindy. Did hundreds of dungeons to get your armor? Sorry, I don’t care. Went around with a zerg hundreds of times in wvw to get your armor? Sorry, I don’t care. Soloed arah to get your armor? You sir, are a bad kitten . You won against some of the best pvp teams in the game? You sure, are awesome.

The problem is most of the pve content is currently too easy to dictate anything close to legendary status. That is hopefully the reason they are adding raids. The ladder system should also work for pvp. You should be really, really good at pvp to make the armor. As for wvw, I don’t really know what they should do. However, they should do something. The problem is, if you can’t grind through dungeons to get the armor because dungeons are too easy, you shouldn’t be able to just grind with a wvw zerg for the armor either. The new stronghold mode is kinda like wvw, only obviously different in many ways. Perhaps this shows some wvw skill? Especially if stronghold was made to match wvw better with battering rams and material gathering and such.

My suggestions
You need to complete raids to get a piece to make the armor-hard ten men content
You need to complete lvl 100 fractals to get a piece to make the armor (This is especially so the economy doesn’t crash for ascended. You need ascended armor and agony resistance in order to get legendary armor)-hard five men content
You need to be on the upper ladders in the league system of conquest pvp for a piece to make the armor. The same way you get the legendary back piece.
You need to be on the upper ladders in stronghold pvp (switched to a more wvw style) for a piece to make the armor. Same way as conquest.
And of course, you will need to play some actual wvw for a piece to make the armor.
However, if there are other ideas to show skill rather than grinding in wvw for a piece, I would love to hear them. This is just a general gist of what I think should be required in order to make a piece of the armor.

As for trading, no, I don’t think you should be able to trade it. With legendary armor, you should be able to show what you accomplished in the game and not, “I bought x amount of gems and sold them for gold.” In my opinion, this is still a problem with legendaries today. As long as there are other good, monetary, rewards for doing raids and 100 lvl fractals, people will still do them. Especially if they enjoyed them.

As of right now, ya people enjoy arah and do it for enjoyment. However, they would enjoy it even more (and more people would both do it and enjoy it) if they got compensated properly for doing arah over other dungeons like cof and AC.

I’m not saying it’s revolutionary, just that it costs too much resources.

And my point there was that because my suggestion wasn’t particularly revolutionary, it wouldn’t take up that many resources to implement, and would be well worth it.

So did anyone consider Legendary Armor won’t be locked behind raids? Just because that’s the only thing they have announced it for doesn’t mean that’s the only way to get it.

Our assumptions are reasonable based on the information provided. If we’re flat out wrong, then ANet can solve this in a heartbeat by simply telling us so. This is a kitten-storm entirely of their own making, don’t try to pass the buck onto the community.

The best way to get a top-tier item should never be, and never should have been “follow a mob of people around digging in the dirt while watching a movie”

It’s a good thing that literally no one is actually asking for that then, right?

That is not a sustainable game model, which should be obvious by the significant drop in players and going F2P.

There hasn’t been any significant drop in players, and the F2P model they’re using is a perfectly reasonable shift in a three year old game that is launching a new expansion and never had a subscription to begin with. It’s not a terribly drastic shift in this case.

You want something then you work for it. Some of the best moments in video gaming of mine have been when I’ve achieved something through actual effort and not just having someone hand me a trophy for “participation”.

Nobody is arguing that you shouldn’t have to work for it, and I’m getting really tired of people implying that this is an actual case being put forth. The argument on the table is that the method by which people work for it should be more flexible than “do this one specific type of gameplay, for which you may not have any interest.” Players should have to work to earn Legendary armor, but they should be able to choose how they work.

based on what you said, i dont think many, if any of the player types you are talking about will be quitting for exclusives. They will be busy pursuing their goals of unlocking specializations and masteries on multiple charachters at a steady pace, for the most dominant and powerful charachter growth/progression the game offers at 80+

Considering that it sounds like you’ll have to unlock a lot of the mastery system before being able to even attempt the raids, I don’t see it as likely being a long term progression goal. I would not be surprised if I had most of the masteries knocked out by Christmas, or earlier.

In any case, if people choose to set that as their goal, then that’s fine, their option. But if they choose to set earning Legendary armor as their goal, then that should be available too, without raiding being a significant component of that.

FrizzFreston.5290:

You just add unfounded numerical weight to it and add that the goal is intentionally designed unreachable, which is just nonsense. But yeah.

Think it through. We’re talking about a content that is to challenge the best players. A content that a majority can complete will simply not be challenging enough. Which has been stated many times, by the way, by the raiders themselves. In this very thread. So, it is a content which majority of players is supposed to not be able to complete. Doesn’t it follow, then, that any exclusive reward locked behind such content is a reward intentionally placed behind the reach of a majority of players? If it’s not so, please, point to me where i have erred and why.
(mind you, the desire to place those rewards beyond the reach of majority of players has also been stated many times in this very threads by raid proposers, so i really cannot think where i could have erred)

Astralporing.1957:

FrizzFreston.5290:

You just add unfounded numerical weight to it and add that the goal is intentionally designed unreachable, which is just nonsense. But yeah.

Think it through. We’re talking about a content that is to challenge the best players. A content that a majority can complete will simply not be challenging enough. Which has been stated many times, by the way, by the raiders themselves. In this very thread. So, it is a content which majority of players is supposed to not be able to complete. Doesn’t it follow, then, that any exclusive reward locked behind such content is a reward intentionally placed behind the reach of a majority of players? If it’s not so, please, point to me where i have erred and why.
(mind you, the desire to place those rewards beyond the reach of majority of players has also been stated many times in this very threads by raid proposers, so i really cannot think where i could have erred)

its not meant to be beyond the reach of the best players, its meant to be difficult. I think people will be able to beat it whatever it is. There is no content i have seen in any mmo that was so hard as to be impossible when people do it the way it was meant to be done. The bikitteniment is figuring out the gimmick for those types of battles. The ones that arent being blocked by lack of knowledge, are usually just a matter of practice, execution, and paying attention.

truth is, i honestly doubt it will be that hard for the best of the best players. They allready have all the game skills down pat.

Think it through. We’re talking about a content that is to challenge the best players. A content that a majority can complete will simply not be challenging enough. Which has been stated many times, by the way, by the raiders themselves. In this very thread. So, it is a content which majority of players is supposed to not be able to complete. Doesn’t it follow, then, that any exclusive reward locked behind such content is a reward intentionally placed behind the reach of a majority of players? If it’s not so, please, point to me where i have erred and why.
(mind you, the desire to place those rewards beyond the reach of majority of players has also been stated many times in this very threads by raid proposers, so i really cannot think where i could have erred)

Yeah, basically the raiders create an impossible logic loop.

The Content should be so difficult that only the best can achieve it.
->
The Best Rewards should only flow from this content.
->
If people want the Rewards, then all they have to do is “git gud” and beat the Content, anyone can do it.
->
The Content should be so difficult that only the best can achieve it.

If you poke them on one of those points, they retreat to the previous one as a defense, but taken all together it cannot hold as a functional model.

There is no content i have seen in any mmo that was so hard as to be impossible when people do it the way it was meant to be done.

What is achievable for some players is not always achievable by all. Furthermore, what is theoretically possible for someone is not necessarily something that they would enjoy pursuing. Do not project your own experiences onto other players. Just accept, as completely incontrovertible fact, the following points:

1. If the content is designed in a way to be remotely challenging to the very best players, then it will be immensely challenging to the median players.
2. If the content is remotely challenging to the very best players, then it will be completely impossible for the sub-median players, unless methods exist to essentially carry them through it, so the best case scenario is that they will merely be a burden on all other players.
3. While each player has the potential for growth as a player, each player also has functional limits on their potential. Not every player can become the very best player, regardless of how much time and effort they spend in that pursuit, and for some it comes much easier than others.
4. Just because some players enjoy the experience of failing against difficult content until they eventually surpass it, many others do not.

Given these absolute facts, I think that the step forward is that it’s perfectly reasonable to provide the challenging content that some players clearly want, but also it’s important to accept that this content is not, and should not be for ALL players in the game, and those players for whom this content does not provide a positive gaming experience, they should be free to opt out of it, with as little negative consequence as possible (ie they don’t miss out on getting the cool rewards). There is no benefit to excluding rewards from people who are genuinely trying to enjoy the game to the best of their ability.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, basically the raiders create an impossible logic loop.

Sure, let’s hear it.

Ohoni.6057:

The Content should be so difficult that only the best can achieve it.

Uh, no. We want the content to be challenging enough that those skilled enough to get it earn it sooner than those not skilled enough at that time. Gaining knowledge, changing your strategy, and refining what you do during an encounter which can be anything from timing a CC to removing mistakes are fundamental to raiding successfully. It’s called learning.

Ohoni.6057:

The Best Rewards should only flow from this content.

You mean A unique reward flows from this particular content, not ALL the best rewards. I doubt I will make much progress crafting a Twilight from Raiding (presumably unless RNGesus grants me many a Dusk from ambient loot, the odds are unthinkable). It also depends on how you value the reward, Legendary Armor carries a pretty nice convenience but certainly isn’t going to make me beat everyone. It could also be aesthetically pleasing or atrocious to look at, we don’t have specifics. Finally we have no idea IF Legendary Armor in the future will come strictly from Raiding, only that the first instance of it will be arriving from this Raid coming up now. Pretty solid incentive to start raiding huh?

Ohoni.6057:

If people want the Rewards, then all they have to do is “git gud” and beat the Content, anyone can do it.

Uh yea. If you weren’t skilled enough to complete the content you don’t get the reward yet until you do. This means learning to raid. If players don’t want to raid, they just won’t get the reward I don’t see the issue with this. Anyone can go into this raid, and most will probably fail for quite some time. But I do imagine players who consistently raid and start learning how to deal with the obstacles the raid sets forth will get their well-earned reward eventually!

Ohoni.6057:

The Content should be so difficult that only the best can achieve it.

And back to square 1, so “Uh no. We want the content to be challenging enough…”.

Ohoni.6057:

If you poke them on one of those points, they retreat to the previous one as a defense, but taken all together it cannot hold as a functional model.

It can, because it has. Because Raiding has been a staple of PvE Content since that Black Sheep you talk about so much. The only difference is, GW2 Raiding is already looking more accessible (hngh…Attunements so bad) and requirement of manpower is extremely low (10 people! Sweet!).

Ohoni.6057:

What is achievable for some players is not always achievable by all. Furthermore, what is theoretically possible for someone is not necessarily something that they would enjoy pursuing. Do not project your own experiences onto other players. Just accept, as completely incontrovertible fact, the following points:

1. If the content is designed in a way to be remotely challenging to the very best players, then it will be immensely challenging to the median players.
2. If the content is remotely challenging to the very best players, then it will be completely impossible for the sub-median players, unless methods exist to essentially carry them through it, so the best case scenario is that they will merely be a burden on all other players.
3. While each player has the potential for growth as a player, each player also has functional limits on their potential. Not every player can become the very best player, regardless of how much time and effort they spend in that pursuit, and for some it comes much easier than others.
4. Just because some players enjoy the experience of failing against difficult content until they eventually surpass it, many others do not.

1) Humoring your thought-process that somehow this raid will be only for ‘the best of the best’, sure, it will be quite challenging to the median of players.
2) You do not know that it will be completely impossible. That is because players are human, they learn and adapt. Why this fixation that anyone in the ‘impossible’ zone can’t get good enough after some period of time to get to the ‘median’ zone which according to you, makes the content challenging but not impossible to complete? The burden bull needs to stop as well, many a raiders won’t take the mentality of blaming their allies. Especially in this community where players have cooperated since this game’s inception on content. You will see more ‘We all live or die together’ than that hogwash you spewed.
3) And that is where we disagree the greatest. This is the biggest absolute problem with your entire mindset about this. You think some people can’t get better ever. What a load of negative doo-doo that is. Do you where some of the best moments in raiding come from? When your guildmate or friend of so many years finally ‘clicks’ with this really difficult boss after so many months of sometimes horrid play or the close-calls. Giving up is the worst thing you can do. The only time functionality of gameplay actually comes into balance is when there is a real, physical or mental ailment wrong with the player that inhibits the necessary movements to meet the requirements. I am talking missing limbs, mental kittenation, quality of life issues that don’t just impact the player’s experience in GW2 but ALL things.
I will not humor a discussion on real Quality of Life problems that your entire 3rd point would actually match up with.
4) You won’t know how many players will like raiding even if they keep failing at it. It’s entirely possible the Raid could be engaging even after months of failing at it just because it was designed so well.

Ohoni.6057:

Given these absolute facts…

Well played, I fell out of my chair laughing.

And the rest of your point I pretty much covered before.

Uh, no. We want the content to be challenging enough that those skilled enough to get it earn it sooner than those not skilled enough at that time.

Some maybe. There are certainly those that insist that raids should be consistently challenging to higher skill players. If this ceases to become true, if the content is actually no more challenging to the high skill players than “champ farming” is to lower skill players, then why would people doing the raid deserve superior loot? If they are just “farming the raid” then why would they deserve more loot than someone else “farming Shadow Behemoth?”

You mean A unique reward flows from this particular content, not ALL the best rewards. I doubt I will make much progress crafting a Twilight from Raiding (presumably unless RNGesus grants me many a Dusk from ambient loot, the odds are unthinkable). It also depends on how you value the reward, Legendary Armor carries a pretty nice convenience but certainly isn’t going to make me beat everyone.

It is subjective, but you can only rate that subjective value for yourself, not for others. You’re free to say “I don’t think it’s that important,” but you have no right to say “I don’t think this should be important _to you.”_ If a player expressed that Legendary armor is important to him, then it IS important to him, and that must be taken into account whether you agree or not.

It can, because it has. Because Raiding has been a staple of PvE Content since that Black Sheep you talk about so much. The only difference is, GW2 Raiding is already looking more accessible (hngh…Attunements so bad) and requirement of manpower is extremely low (10 people! Sweet!).

Black Swan, different concept, but anyways, what works for WoW’s community will not necessarily work for GW2’s community, as GW2’s community is largely people who don’t play WoW anymore, if they ever did, and the exact things you highlight as being strengths of WoW are things that many of those players cite as weaknesses.

1) Humoring your thought-process that somehow this raid will be only for ‘the best of the best’, sure, it will be quite challenging to the median of players.

Again, if it’s not challenging to the best of the best, then it has failed in its purpose. The people most likely to care about raids at all will instead be disappointed because the raids “won’t be hard enough” and they’ll have the same reaction they had to the early dungeons and Fractals.

2) You do not know that it will be completely impossible. That is because players are human, they learn and adapt.

See point #3.

The burden bull needs to stop as well, many a raiders won’t take the mentality of blaming their allies.

I’m not saying that people will blame them, I’m saying that if they are not good enough to contribute, then they will be a burden. They will harm the group more than they help it. Now, a gracious group will accept that burden, perhaps even welcome it to some degree, but there is nothing subjective about it, a player below the difficulty curve of the challenge is, objectively, a burden.

My point isn’t that players should never be a burden to others, or that when a player is a burden they should be ostracized for it, but that players should not be encouraged to become a burden when they don’t even actually want to be there in the first place. If they are going to cause more harm than good, AND don’t want to be there, why can’t they just be allowed to not be there? What is anyone’s interest in forcing them to be there against their wishes?

3) And that is where we disagree the greatest. This is the biggest absolute problem with your entire mindset about this. You think some people can’t get better ever. What a load of negative doo-doo that is.

Not, exactly. My point is that everyone has a floor and a ceiling. Some players start out pretty great, and can rise to become the best. Some start out awful, and with a great deal of time and effort, become slightly less awful. Not everyone has it in their potential to become top tier, no matter how hard they try. Others can. People should always try their best to be their best, but your best is not necessarily someone else’s best.

When content is designed to exclude those who are not above a certain skill cap, then you have to accept as fact that there will be people below that skill cap, and always will be. The higher the skill cap, the more people trapped below it. You cannot simply treat this barrier as an inevitably temporary one, because for many people it IS a permanent one.

4) You won’t know how many players will like raiding even if they keep failing at it. It’s entirely possible the Raid could be engaging even after months of failing at it just because it was designed so well.

Fair enough, but you don’t know that people would enjoy it either. I believe I’m more right than you are in this particular speculation, but you’re right that neither of us can know the future. It’s possible that GW2’s raiding will be immeasurably superior to all other raiding content in the history of the world, I just see that as being overly optimistic.

Well played, I fell out of my chair laughing.

You may not accept them as facts, but they are absolute facts. The only thing subjective is how much you care about any of those facts. I mean, if you don’t care about the players who aren’t enjoying themselves, then that’s your business, but don’t try to pretend that they do not exist, simply because they are inconvenient to you.

Ohoni.6057:

Well played, I fell out of my chair laughing.

You may not accept them as facts, but they are absolute facts. The only thing subjective is how much you care about any of those facts. I mean, if you don’t care about the players who aren’t enjoying themselves, then that’s your business, but don’t try to pretend that they do not exist, simply because they are inconvenient to you.

Challenge is subjective. Therefor your facts are subjective. No matter how much you declare them absolute facts. There’s some merit to it, but it’s not fact.
The third is sort of a fact, but then it is basically saying that only one can be the best, which is selfproving because that’s what “the best” means. It’s merit is totally leaning on the the first if to be true.
The fourth is unfounded. Many is an undefined number. Thus also not a fact.
Declaring them absolute facts is pretentious, because calling anything absolute and fact is just silly. A fact is always absolute.

Of course it might not be enjoyable to be carried or be a burden. But that’s also subjective.

But excluding rewards from other content doesn’t mean players can’t enoy themselves. I don’t think anyone who wants exclusive rewards is saying that other people shouldn’t enjoy themselves. And obviously the existence of rewards being out of reach doesn’t mean people enjoy themselves less.

Astralporing.1957:

FrizzFreston.5290:

You just add unfounded numerical weight to it and add that the goal is intentionally designed unreachable, which is just nonsense. But yeah.

Think it through. We’re talking about a content that is to challenge the best players. A content that a majority can complete will simply not be challenging enough. Which has been stated many times, by the way, by the raiders themselves. In this very thread. So, it is a content which majority of players is supposed to not be able to complete. Doesn’t it follow, then, that any exclusive reward locked behind such content is a reward intentionally placed behind the reach of a majority of players? If it’s not so, please, point to me where i have erred and why.
(mind you, the desire to place those rewards beyond the reach of majority of players has also been stated many times in this very threads by raid proposers, so i really cannot think where i could have erred)

I meant that it’s mostly based on assumptions and speculation.
And any challenge is intentionally unreachable. I doubt anyone who set the bar at a certain height means for everyone to be able to cross it. Although that is a major simplification in the eyes of a challenge in a game to begin with.

phys.7689:

Astralporing.1957:

FrizzFreston.5290:

You just add unfounded numerical weight to it and add that the goal is intentionally designed unreachable, which is just nonsense. But yeah.

Think it through. We’re talking about a content that is to challenge the best players. A content that a majority can complete will simply not be challenging enough. Which has been stated many times, by the way, by the raiders themselves. In this very thread. So, it is a content which majority of players is supposed to not be able to complete. Doesn’t it follow, then, that any exclusive reward locked behind such content is a reward intentionally placed behind the reach of a majority of players? If it’s not so, please, point to me where i have erred and why.
(mind you, the desire to place those rewards beyond the reach of majority of players has also been stated many times in this very threads by raid proposers, so i really cannot think where i could have erred)

its not meant to be beyond the reach of the best players, its meant to be difficult.

…sigh, stop misquoting me. I didn’t say beyond the reach of the best players. I said difficult to the best players. But what is difficult to the best player, is beyond reach to an average one. If it’s not, then it has failed its intended purpose.

Besides, look at this very thread. The desire for raids to be a content only “the bestest” will be able to beat (which always seems to include the poster) is repeated many times here. Do you really thing that this desire will be able to be satisfied with an instance that a majority of players can finish? Honestly?

FrizzFreston.5290:

And any challenge is intentionally unreachable. I doubt anyone who set the bar at a certain height means for everyone to be able to cross it.

…so, what are you arguing with me about? This bar is meant to be set well above the 50% mark, and there are exclusive rewards placed behind it. This means that those rewards will be unreachable by design to people below that bar. Do you disagree? Because you seem to be arguing against me, and yet you keep repeating the very things i say.

Well my opinion is that an average playtime of one hour a day is already huge, and this time is usually shared with at least two game modes. It should be possilbe with that to reach legendary in a resonable timeframe. Currently i even see ascended armor unreachable with that. Of course there are huge diffrences in playtime but i am not a friend of pure playtime defining the power of a character. GW2 is clearly better in that aspect then other games, this is a great factor why i like it.

Ohoni.6057:

Think it through. We’re talking about a content that is to challenge the best players. A content that a majority can complete will simply not be challenging enough. Which has been stated many times, by the way, by the raiders themselves. In this very thread. So, it is a content which majority of players is supposed to not be able to complete. Doesn’t it follow, then, that any exclusive reward locked behind such content is a reward intentionally placed behind the reach of a majority of players? If it’s not so, please, point to me where i have erred and why.
(mind you, the desire to place those rewards beyond the reach of majority of players has also been stated many times in this very threads by raid proposers, so i really cannot think where i could have erred)

Yeah, basically the raiders create an impossible logic loop.

The Content should be so difficult that only the best can achieve it.
->
The Best Rewards should only flow from this content.
->
If people want the Rewards, then all they have to do is “git gud” and beat the Content, anyone can do it.
->
The Content should be so difficult that only the best can achieve it.

If you poke them on one of those points, they retreat to the previous one as a defense, but taken all together it cannot hold as a functional model.

There is no content i have seen in any mmo that was so hard as to be impossible when people do it the way it was meant to be done.

What is achievable for some players is not always achievable by all. Furthermore, what is theoretically possible for someone is not necessarily something that they would enjoy pursuing. Do not project your own experiences onto other players. Just accept, as completely incontrovertible fact, the following points:

1. If the content is designed in a way to be remotely challenging to the very best players, then it will be immensely challenging to the median players.
2. If the content is remotely challenging to the very best players, then it will be completely impossible for the sub-median players, unless methods exist to essentially carry them through it, so the best case scenario is that they will merely be a burden on all other players.
3. While each player has the potential for growth as a player, each player also has functional limits on their potential. Not every player can become the very best player, regardless of how much time and effort they spend in that pursuit, and for some it comes much easier than others.
4. Just because some players enjoy the experience of failing against difficult content until they eventually surpass it, many others do not.

Given these absolute facts, I think that the step forward is that it’s perfectly reasonable to provide the challenging content that some players clearly want, but also it’s important to accept that this content is not, and should not be for ALL players in the game, and those players for whom this content does not provide a positive gaming experience, they should be free to opt out of it, with as little negative consequence as possible (ie they don’t miss out on getting the cool rewards). There is no benefit to excluding rewards from people who are genuinely trying to enjoy the game to the best of their ability.

your premises are false.

I have actually played raids in multiple games, they are not impossible no matter how you slice it.
There are some people who have disabilities who will not possess the basic abilities needed to succeed, but that is always going to be the case, no matter what content you create.

Now some people may not have the desire. Thats fine, but its not any different than people who dont have the desire to simple things.
Some things should be earnable by any means, and somethings should require you to actually do specific things.
the type of reward system you want is improbable to balance. It has never in the history of the world been done without large flaws. You basically want to create a monetary system that has no biases, imbalances, degenerative results. People have been trying to build that economy irl for as long as we have had civilizations. Its not going to happen.

Do you have an algorithim for skilled play? an algorithm for effort per user? algorithm for how mass behavior will effect the production of an item? An algorithim for how this changes over time?

socialistic captilalism is the current method most used, and the TP essentially tried that already, it doesnt perform well for prestige items, while keeping gaming goals/rewards doing their jobs.

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

Astralporing.1957:

FrizzFreston.5290:

You just add unfounded numerical weight to it and add that the goal is intentionally designed unreachable, which is just nonsense. But yeah.

Think it through. We’re talking about a content that is to challenge the best players. A content that a majority can complete will simply not be challenging enough. Which has been stated many times, by the way, by the raiders themselves. In this very thread. So, it is a content which majority of players is supposed to not be able to complete. Doesn’t it follow, then, that any exclusive reward locked behind such content is a reward intentionally placed behind the reach of a majority of players? If it’s not so, please, point to me where i have erred and why.
(mind you, the desire to place those rewards beyond the reach of majority of players has also been stated many times in this very threads by raid proposers, so i really cannot think where i could have erred)

its not meant to be beyond the reach of the best players, its meant to be difficult.

…sigh, stop misquoting me. I didn’t say beyond the reach of the best players. I said difficult to the best players. But what is difficult to the best player, is beyond reach to an average one. If it’s not, then it has failed its intended purpose.

Besides, look at this very thread. The desire for raids to be a content only “the bestest” will be able to beat (which always seems to include the poster) is repeated many times here. Do you really thing that this desire will be able to be satisfied with an instance that a majority of players can finish? Honestly?

FrizzFreston.5290:

And any challenge is intentionally unreachable. I doubt anyone who set the bar at a certain height means for everyone to be able to cross it.

…so, what are you arguing with me about? This bar is meant to be set well above the 50% mark, and there are exclusive rewards placed behind it. This means that those rewards will be unreachable by design to people below that bar. Do you disagree? Because you seem to be arguing against me, and yet you keep repeating the very things i say.

you guys simplified understanding of peoples abilities. and analysis of who is in what category, leads to these false ideas.
first of all, who is being targeted for these raids? the top .05%? the top 5% the top 10%?

second how does those targeted translate in terms of the average players abilities?

what type of skill set is being challenged here? is it reflex? preparation? execution? creativity?

I played FFXI back in the day, supposedly one of the most difficult MMOs. Everybody who played long enough gained enough skills to do whatever their goal was.
fighting a regular enemy in FFXI required as much skill, coordination, planning, as the hardest current dungeon bosses in gw2. Millions of players learned how to do this on a regular basis. Those same people who at one time may have struggled with fighting a pikachu level enemy, later on could be found in the hardest raids/boss fights in the game.

you drastically underestimate the average, and even below average humans ability to adapt to stimulus. Right now there is such a drastic difference in skill, not because of natural ability, but because of incentive.
And also remember this is GROUP content, there is always going to be different divisions of who does what based on the individual strengths and weaknesses of the people.

based on how you guys act, mario brothers would be impossible to beat ( and yet millions of kids did it at age 5+)

this is more an issue of not liking a content type, than an issue of human potential. You would make a better argument letting go the whole impossible for people, and focusing on the idea that people dislike content.

the hardest part of doing raids is going to be finding 9 other people who want to tackle it consistently, who dont blow up in each others faces.

Thats my main problem with “raids”

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

nope working at a steady pace towards your goals is not actually the highest motivating rewards system

It’s way better than rewards you know you won’t get because they are intentionally kept out of your reach.

phys.7689:

also, exclusive rewards actually doesnt mess up your paradigm of working at a steady pace towards your goals being the best answer.

Well, if i can’t work at a steady pace towards those rewards, they definitely do.

They’re not out of your reach. You’re choosing not to do the required content. Some people didn’t bother with legendary weapons because they chose not to grind obscene amounts of clovers, or didn’t want to go to WvW for the gift of battle, or whatever.

I don’t own any PvP skins because I find arena based PvP boring and can’t be bothered to do the reward track.

Luckily, GW2 is well designed enough that I’m not forced to do any content to remain on the same power level as everyone else. I retain my option to try that content at any time.

Masteries are the system that forces content for mechanical power. I don’t hear anyone complaining about those.

Challenge is subjective. Therefor your facts are subjective. No matter how much you declare them absolute facts. There’s some merit to it, but it’s not fact.

No, my comments take that entirely into effect. Challenge is subjective, but in any reasonable spread of MMO players, if the content is designed so that the highest skilled portion subjectively finds the content challenging, then it is an objective fact that the middle portion will find it to be subjectively too challenging, and the lower group will find it completely out of their range. You can make factual arguments that are based on the opinions of populations, such as “47% of people voted for candidate X in the recent election.” They made a subjective choice, but it is an objective statement to say that they made that choice.

The third is sort of a fact, but then it is basically saying that only one can be the best, which is selfproving because that’s what “the best” means. It’s merit is totally leaning on the the first if to be true.
The fourth is unfounded. Many is an undefined number. Thus also not a fact.
Declaring them absolute facts is pretentious, because calling anything absolute and fact is just silly. A fact is always absolute.

So basically what it boils down to is that you can’t actually find anything to disagree with on a substance level, so you’re nitpicking into minor word choice issues? Fair enough, I’ll take it.

Of course it might not be enjoyable to be carried or be a burden. But that’s also subjective.

Yes, and I said as much. I flat out said that while the fact of the unskilled player being a burden is an objective reality, it is certainly subjective how much that may or may not bother you or them on an individual level.

But excluding rewards from other content doesn’t mean players can’t enoy themselves. I don’t think anyone who wants exclusive rewards is saying that other people shouldn’t enjoy themselves. And obviously the existence of rewards being out of reach doesn’t mean people enjoy themselves less.

This is an unreasonable conclusion. While it’s certainly true that exclusive rewards don’t mean that players can’t enjoy themselves, it is a fact that there is at least some portion of the playerbase who would enjoy their experience LESS if they felt that these rewards were permanently out of their reach, or if they had to engage in “unfun” content to pursue them. This is a subjective impression on their part, but it is an objective fact that they possess these opinions and they are not “wrong” for having them.

If you are arguing that these people should not have access to those exclusive rewards, or that they should have to pursue content that they do not enjoy in order to earn them, then you are, as a fact, stating that you would prefer them to be less happy. Whether that bothers you or not is the only subjective factor in that scenario.

I have actually played raids in multiple games, they are not impossible no matter how you slice it.

In these previous games, in how many cases would you consider the raid to be “impossible” (assuming a low level of skill and engagement) until such time as the meta moves on to one or two raids further along? I mean, my understanding is that in most games, they build a raid, and it’s hard for a bit, but then the majority of players get stronger armor from it, trivializing it, and/or it is nerfed as the new, even harder raid comes out.

My point here being that, whether true or not, ANet has promised that they intend to keep these raids equally hard forever, so that even once the first raid becomes “passe” to the front liners, it’ll be no easier for the back groups. Sure, they’ll be able to use guides to figure out the challenges easier, but they’ll still have to actually do it themselves, and with no gear-bloat to help them out.

Also, even if it is possible to carry a lower skill player through the content, is that really the same as them contributing on an equal level to it’s conclusion? If they are not helping their fellow players, making their jobs harder, not enjoying their time spent there, and would rather be doing something else, then who benefits from forcing them to be there? I don’t believe that groups should exclude people who genuinely want to attempt the raid, and want to improve their own skills, I just don’t see the benefit of forcing raids on those who genuinely have no interest in it.

the type of reward system you want is improbable to balance. It has never in the history of the world been done without large flaws. You basically want to create a monetary system that has no biases, imbalances, degenerative results. People have been trying to build that economy irl for as long as we have had civilizations. Its not going to happen.

It’s really not that hard in a game world, when you have less factors at play than real life. For example in the real world, some roles are more important than others, like doctors, so you want to incentivize people to take them up, whereas in games, no role is more important than any other, a hardcore front line raider is no more important than a Silverwastes chest farmer, so the game doesn’t have any reason to incentivize the former over the latter.

I’m not saying they can get it perfect, nothing can be perfect, and the current system is far from perfect too, that’s not the point. I do think that it can be made very good, however, and the perfect should not be the enemy of the good.

And as for the TP, the problem with the TP is that players set the prices in their own interests. That never works out well.

you guys simplified understanding of peoples abilities. and analysis of who is in what category, leads to these false ideas.
first of all, who is being targeted for these raids? the top .05%? the top 5% the top 10%?

second how does those targeted translate in terms of the average players abilities?

For simplicity’s sake, let’s use a standard 20/60/20 model. If the raid is designed so that 20% of players will find it significantly challenging, then 60% of players are likely to find it uncomfortably difficult, and the bottom 20% practically impossible. That’s doesn’t mean that the bottom 20% could never clear it, mind you, it just means that a group of entirely this bottom 20% could never pass it, and that any 20%ers that do pass it would have to be carried by some upper 20%s in the party.

based on how you guys act, mario brothers would be impossible to beat ( and yet millions of kids did it at age 5+)

And millions more didn’t. I never beat Mario, I played it for a while, got bored, moved on to other games. I also never beat any of the original Megaman games.

They’re not out of your reach. You’re choosing not to do the required content. Some people didn’t bother with legendary weapons because they chose not to grind obscene amounts of clovers, or didn’t want to go to WvW for the gift of battle, or whatever.

Clovers? Clovers take like ten minutes to knock out at the mystic forge. I would have spent 1000 clovers to get a Precursor.

Masteries are the system that forces content for mechanical power. I don’t hear anyone complaining about those.

Because Masteries allow you to do ANY PvE content to progress them. That’s the sort of flexibility people are asking for. Why would anyone be complaining about that?

Random.4691:

BIGHARSHNESS.3510:

You can’t get Fractal skins without playing fractals… some content needs its own exclusive rewards for incentive to play it… Otherwise raids would become like Triple Trouble, where no one does them except large guilds.

Legendary Armor wont have better stats that ascended armor.

Then they should really give WvW its own exclusive reward, it’s long over due. They seem to be the part of the player base that get shafted the most as far as rewards which really is ridiculous considering Anet chose to make 3 different game modes. All modes should provide a way to obtain the goodies. I’ve said it before, if tables were turned and Legendary armor was WvW exclusive the majority of the PvE crowd would absolutely lose their minds. At which point they would feel their complaints are perfectly legitimate because it suits them.

I do agree, you WvW folks need some solid reward that is not obtainable in EoTM

Ohoni.6057:

Challenge is subjective. Therefor your facts are subjective. No matter how much you declare them absolute facts. There’s some merit to it, but it’s not fact.

No, my comments take that entirely into effect. Challenge is subjective, but in any reasonable spread of MMO players, if the content is designed so that the highest skilled portion subjectively finds the content challenging, then it is an objective fact that the middle portion will find it to be subjectively too challenging, and the lower group will find it completely out of their range. You can make factual arguments that are based on the opinions of populations, such as “47% of people voted for candidate X in the recent election.” They made a subjective choice, but it is an objective statement to say that they made that choice.

The third is sort of a fact, but then it is basically saying that only one can be the best, which is selfproving because that’s what “the best” means. It’s merit is totally leaning on the the first if to be true.
The fourth is unfounded. Many is an undefined number. Thus also not a fact.
Declaring them absolute facts is pretentious, because calling anything absolute and fact is just silly. A fact is always absolute.

So basically what it boils down to is that you can’t actually find anything to disagree with on a substance level, so you’re nitpicking into minor word choice issues? Fair enough, I’ll take it.

Of course it might not be enjoyable to be carried or be a burden. But that’s also subjective.

Yes, and I said as much. I flat out said that while the fact of the unskilled player being a burden is an objective reality, it is certainly subjective how much that may or may not bother you or them on an individual level.

But excluding rewards from other content doesn’t mean players can’t enoy themselves. I don’t think anyone who wants exclusive rewards is saying that other people shouldn’t enjoy themselves. And obviously the existence of rewards being out of reach doesn’t mean people enjoy themselves less.

This is an unreasonable conclusion. While it’s certainly true that exclusive rewards don’t mean that players can’t enjoy themselves, it is a fact that there is at least some portion of the playerbase who would enjoy their experience LESS if they felt that these rewards were permanently out of their reach, or if they had to engage in “unfun” content to pursue them. This is a subjective impression on their part, but it is an objective fact that they possess these opinions and they are not “wrong” for having them.

If you are arguing that these people should not have access to those exclusive rewards, or that they should have to pursue content that they do not enjoy in order to earn them, then you are, as a fact, stating that you would prefer them to be less happy. Whether that bothers you or not is the only subjective factor in that scenario.

I have actually played raids in multiple games, they are not impossible no matter how you slice it.

In these previous games, in how many cases would you consider the raid to be “impossible” (assuming a low level of skill and engagement) until such time as the meta moves on to one or two raids further along? I mean, my understanding is that in most games, they build a raid, and it’s hard for a bit, but then the majority of players get stronger armor from it, trivializing it, and/or it is nerfed as the new, even harder raid comes out.

My point here being that, whether true or not, ANet has promised that they intend to keep these raids equally hard forever, so that even once the first raid becomes “passe” to the front liners, it’ll be no easier for the back groups. Sure, they’ll be able to use guides to figure out the challenges easier, but they’ll still have to actually do it themselves, and with no gear-bloat to help them out.

Also, even if it is possible to carry a lower skill player through the content, is that really the same as them contributing on an equal level to it’s conclusion? If they are not helping their fellow players, making their jobs harder, not enjoying their time spent there, and would rather be doing something else, then who benefits from forcing them to be there? I don’t believe that groups should exclude people who genuinely want to attempt the raid, and want to improve their own skills, I just don’t see the benefit of forcing raids on those who genuinely have no interest in it.

the type of reward system you want is improbable to balance. It has never in the history of the world been done without large flaws. You basically want to create a monetary system that has no biases, imbalances, degenerative results. People have been trying to build that economy irl for as long as we have had civilizations. Its not going to happen.

It’s really not that hard in a game world, when you have less factors at play than real life. For example in the real world, some roles are more important than others, like doctors, so you want to incentivize people to take them up, whereas in games, no role is more important than any other, a hardcore front line raider is no more important than a Silverwastes chest farmer, so the game doesn’t have any reason to incentivize the former over the latter.

I’m not saying they can get it perfect, nothing can be perfect, and the current system is far from perfect too, that’s not the point. I do think that it can be made very good, however, and the perfect should not be the enemy of the good.

And as for the TP, the problem with the TP is that players set the prices in their own interests. That never works out well.

you guys simplified understanding of peoples abilities. and analysis of who is in what category, leads to these false ideas.
first of all, who is being targeted for these raids? the top .05%? the top 5% the top 10%?

second how does those targeted translate in terms of the average players abilities?

For simplicity’s sake, let’s use a standard 20/60/20 model. If the raid is designed so that 20% of players will find it significantly challenging, then 60% of players are likely to find it uncomfortably difficult, and the bottom 20% practically impossible. That’s doesn’t mean that the bottom 20% could never clear it, mind you, it just means that a group of entirely this bottom 20% could never pass it, and that any 20%ers that do pass it would have to be carried by some upper 20%s in the party.

based on how you guys act, mario brothers would be impossible to beat ( and yet millions of kids did it at age 5+)

And millions more didn’t. I never beat Mario, I played it for a while, got bored, moved on to other games. I also never beat any of the original Megaman games.

They’re not out of your reach. You’re choosing not to do the required content. Some people didn’t bother with legendary weapons because they chose not to grind obscene amounts of clovers, or didn’t want to go to WvW for the gift of battle, or whatever.

Clovers? Clovers take like ten minutes to knock out at the mystic forge. I would have spent 1000 clovers to get a Precursor.

Masteries are the system that forces content for mechanical power. I don’t hear anyone complaining about those.

Because Masteries allow you to do ANY PvE content to progress them. That’s the sort of flexibility people are asking for. Why would anyone be complaining about that?

In fact they don’t, unless something changed you have to be on HoT maps to progress HoT masteries. They were unclear on the core masteries, and whether you can progress those anywhere or only on core maps (I suspect anywhere, as they’re “core” masteries)

Also, clovers don’t take just ten minutes to knock out at the mystic forge. They take as long as it takes the player to gain the skill points (now the shards) ectos, and coins. You can trade for some of that, but the crystals/stones/obsidian are absolutely an investment that you could have used on something else.

Just because you, as a player, have a massive built up stack of these (as do a lot of people) doesn’t mean they are without effort. You can not simply walk up to the forge and collect clovers. They do in fact require a significant amount of grinding for the materials to gamble for them.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Hardcore gamers asked for “hard content”, but really it is exclusivity they’re after. Well apparently they are getting that with legendary armor. I hope this shiny suit of legendary armor is enough to bolster their fragile egos. Your “awesomeness” will be apparent for everyone to see with that magnificent armor that is locked behind “hard content”. Lesser mortals will be left stunned in your wake. Sheesh!!! It’s really dumb to be seeking self-esteem through a video game……

Give raids exclusive skins but not a kitten legendary!!

p.s. If you were someone who wanted “hard content” without the exclusive carrot this message was not meant for you.

The entitlement on the forums is REAL right now. The elitists are a minority. The game needs challenging PvE content that isn’t faceroll autoattack and win loot. If you don’t want unique rewards, DON’T DO RAIDS.

Suinz.5968:

Dashingsteel.3410:

Hardcore gamers asked for “hard content”, but really it is exclusivity they’re after. Well apparently they are getting that with legendary armor. I hope this shiny suit of legendary armor is enough to bolster their fragile egos. Your “awesomeness” will be apparent for everyone to see with that magnificent armor that is locked behind “hard content”. Lesser mortals will be left stunned in your wake. Sheesh!!! It’s really dumb to be seeking self-esteem through a video game……

Give raids exclusive skins but not a kitten legendary!!

p.s. If you were someone who wanted “hard content” without the exclusive carrot this message was not meant for you.

The entitlement on the forums is REAL right now. The elitists are a minority. The game needs challenging PvE content that isn’t faceroll autoattack and win loot. If you don’t want unique rewards, DON’T DO RAIDS.

I can virtually guarantee that I’ll be reskinning most if not all of my legendary armor. I really hate sparkly particle effects. It’s the same reason I reskinned all my ascended gear.

I don’t care who knows I have it. I care that I know I got it from doing raids because there wasn’t an easier option

I have a ton of skins that I objectively hate that I got because they’re internal badges of honor for doing stuff. I don’t wear a single piece of dungeon armor, but I did in fact to the dungeons specifically for those skins.

See, exclusivity isn’t about lording it over other people. It’s about knowing you have something that is a lasting mark of doing something difficult. It’s about knowing you earned something special not simply having something special

I don’t know any better way to explain it to people like DashingSteel

In fact they don’t, unless something changed you have to be on HoT maps to progress HoT masteries. They were unclear on the core masteries, and whether you can progress those anywhere or only on core maps (I suspect anywhere, as they’re “core” masteries)

Yes, but anything you do on those HoT maps, events, raiding, story mode, just grinding mobs, whatever, will advance your HoT masteries. You aren’t stuck doing a single task to advance them.

Also, clovers don’t take just ten minutes to knock out at the mystic forge. They take as long as it takes the player to gain the skill points (now the shards) ectos, and coins.

Ectos and Coins are just money, Spirit Shards are relatively cheap to acquire. I have 4700 at then moment. You need around 140 to get a legendary weapon, you can get 2 per day just from the login challenge, and they pour out of ubiquitous champ bags.

I can virtually guarantee that I’ll be reskinning most if not all of my legendary armor. I really hate sparkly particle effects. It’s the same reason I reskinned all my ascended gear.

So then you wouldn’t mind if other players could also have those armors, who don’t want to do that content, and might appreciate those skins more than you.

See, exclusivity isn’t about lording it over other people. It’s about knowing you have something that is a lasting mark of doing something difficult. It’s about knowing you earned something special not simply having something special

So why does your reward have to be in the form of a skin that you do not actually want? Why can’t you just get titles and achievements to denote that you made those exact accomplishments, while people who just want the skins can just get the skins? “I just don’t want you to have it so that I know I have something that you don’t.” It seems rather . . . small.

nah…..i like that these are tied to raids. some content-specific “shinies” are desireable.

if raids are implemented correctly, then the term “legendary” will seem a lot less silly that it does w/ the weapons.

Ohoni.6057:

In fact they don’t, unless something changed you have to be on HoT maps to progress HoT masteries. They were unclear on the core masteries, and whether you can progress those anywhere or only on core maps (I suspect anywhere, as they’re “core” masteries)

Yes, but anything you do on those HoT maps, events, raiding, story mode, just grinding mobs, whatever, will advance your HoT masteries. You aren’t stuck doing a single task to advance them.

Also, clovers don’t take just ten minutes to knock out at the mystic forge. They take as long as it takes the player to gain the skill points (now the shards) ectos, and coins.

Ectos and Coins are just money, Spirit Shards are relatively cheap to acquire. I have 4700 at then moment. You need around 140 to get a legendary weapon, you can get 2 per day just from the login challenge, and they pour out of ubiquitous champ bags.

I can virtually guarantee that I’ll be reskinning most if not all of my legendary armor. I really hate sparkly particle effects. It’s the same reason I reskinned all my ascended gear.

So then you wouldn’t mind if other players could also have those armors, who don’t want to do that content, and might appreciate those skins more than you.

See, exclusivity isn’t about lording it over other people. It’s about knowing you have something that is a lasting mark of doing something difficult. It’s about knowing you earned something special not simply having something special

So why does your reward have to be in the form of a skin that you do not actually want? Why can’t you just get titles and achievements to denote that you made those exact accomplishments, while people who just want the skins can just get the skins? “I just don’t want you to have it so that I know I have something that you don’t.” It seems rather . . . small.

I’d say it seems rather small to demand access to something without being willing to do the prerequisite task to obtain it, but hey, that’s just me. Your insults notwithstanding, the point is that a trophy is meaningless if you can just buy it off a shelf. The trohpy has value specifically because of what it represents, not because of what it does. Yes, it could be a title or achievement, but as your ongoing campaign to get access to cosmetic skins shows, skins are way cooler rewards than achievements and titles, and players find them more desirable for the same reason it’s more satisfying to get a trophy or medal than a certificate. It just looks cooler.

Face the facts here. There are already many content specific skins in the game. That isn’t going to change.

Nobody’s saying legendary armor should be raid exclusive. We’re saying that there should be raid exclusive legendary armor. There whould be open world exclusive legendary armor, and pvp exclusive stuff, and fractal stuff, and so on.

Anet has designed around this principal for a long time now. Mechanical power is not a prestige item. Cosmetics are. That is how this game works, has always worked, and will continue to work.

I expect that legendary armor will not remain unique to raids just as ascended gear did not remain unique to fractals. I do however encourage you to open your mind to the very real possibility that raid legendaries will be limited to acquisition from raids just as open world ascended luminescant armor is limited to an open world zone

PopeUrban.2578:

Ohoni.6057:

In fact they don’t, unless something changed you have to be on HoT maps to progress HoT masteries. They were unclear on the core masteries, and whether you can progress those anywhere or only on core maps (I suspect anywhere, as they’re “core” masteries)

Yes, but anything you do on those HoT maps, events, raiding, story mode, just grinding mobs, whatever, will advance your HoT masteries. You aren’t stuck doing a single task to advance them.

Also, clovers don’t take just ten minutes to knock out at the mystic forge. They take as long as it takes the player to gain the skill points (now the shards) ectos, and coins.

Ectos and Coins are just money, Spirit Shards are relatively cheap to acquire. I have 4700 at then moment. You need around 140 to get a legendary weapon, you can get 2 per day just from the login challenge, and they pour out of ubiquitous champ bags.

I can virtually guarantee that I’ll be reskinning most if not all of my legendary armor. I really hate sparkly particle effects. It’s the same reason I reskinned all my ascended gear.

So then you wouldn’t mind if other players could also have those armors, who don’t want to do that content, and might appreciate those skins more than you.

See, exclusivity isn’t about lording it over other people. It’s about knowing you have something that is a lasting mark of doing something difficult. It’s about knowing you earned something special not simply having something special

So why does your reward have to be in the form of a skin that you do not actually want? Why can’t you just get titles and achievements to denote that you made those exact accomplishments, while people who just want the skins can just get the skins? “I just don’t want you to have it so that I know I have something that you don’t.” It seems rather . . . small.

I’d say it seems rather small to demand access to something without being willing to do the prerequisite task to obtain it, but hey, that’s just me. Your insults notwithstanding, the point is that a trophy is meaningless if you can just buy it off a shelf. The trohpy has value specifically because of what it represents, not because of what it does. Yes, it could be a title or achievement, but as your ongoing campaign to get access to cosmetic skins shows, skins are way cooler rewards than achievements and titles, and players find them more desirable for the same reason it’s more satisfying to get a trophy or medal than a certificate. It just looks cooler.

Face the facts here. There are already many content specific skins in the game. That isn’t going to change.

Nobody’s saying legendary armor should be raid exclusive. We’re saying that there should be raid exclusive legendary armor. There whould be open world exclusive legendary armor, and pvp exclusive stuff, and fractal stuff, and so on.

Anet has designed around this principal for a long time now. Mechanical power is not a prestige item. Cosmetics are. That is how this game works, has always worked, and will continue to work.

I expect that legendary armor will not remain unique to raids just as ascended gear did not remain unique to fractals. I do however encourage you to open your mind to the very real possibility that raid legendaries will be limited to acquisition from raids just as open world ascended luminescant armor is limited to an open world zone

^ This x1000

It’s confirmed in the blog post that there will be rewards exclusive to raids. And frankly, that’s what it takes, otherwise people will run raids until they win for the challenge, and then they’ll have nothing to do. It takes a little carrot to make them keep playing after they beat the encounters. There are a lot of examples in other MMO with raids becoming ghosttowns after people beat them once due to no reward. The Ruby Sanctum raid in WoW is one such case.

Now, time to convince the devs to put exclusive rewards for other areas of the game. High-end PvP needs more exclusive things too. Smaller things could also have distinct and exclusive rewards, like jumping puzzles.

Bearhugger.4326:

It’s confirmed in the blog post that there will be rewards exclusive to raids. And frankly, that’s what it takes, otherwise people will run raids until they win for the challenge, and then they’ll have nothing to do. It takes a little carrot to make them keep playing after they beat the encounters. There are a lot of examples in other MMO with raids becoming ghosttowns after people beat them once due to no reward. The Ruby Sanctum raid in WoW is one such case.

That only means people weren’t there for the raid, but just for the rewards. To keep those that are actually interested in the content playing, all that is really needed is a right quantity of the rewards. No exclusivity should be necessary. If it is, that means raids are pulling in people that would have been equally happy (or happier) with acquiring those rewards from other sources.

Will people’s heads explode when they realize you can get armor precursors out of the mystic forge with the same odds as weapon precursors?

I’d say it seems rather small to demand access to something without being willing to do the prerequisite task to obtain it, but hey, that’s just me.

Yes, it’s just you. The “prerequisite requirements” are purely arbitrary. They could be completing the Raid, they could be going to lion’s arch and hopping up and down three times, they are whatever ANet says they are, so to hold them up as some standard that nobody can hold any reasonable complaint against is a bit nonsense.

Your insults notwithstanding, the point is that a trophy is meaningless if you can just buy it off a shelf. The trohpy has value specifically because of what it represents, not because of what it does.

And again, that’s why I’m saying skins should not be considered trophies. A trophy should be an inherently worthless token, an item which has ZERO value unless it represents an achievement, and then it gains worth by representing that achievement. I am NEVER advocating that actual trophies should be available to those who have not earned them.

But if an item has inherent worth, if it has value to people whether it represents that you completed a raid or whether you jumped up and down three times, then it should not be used as a trophy, because there is a reasonable expectation that people will want it without being willing or able to accomplish the trophy-earning tasks.

Yes, it could be a title or achievement, but as your ongoing campaign to get access to cosmetic skins shows, skins are way cooler rewards than achievements and titles, and players find them more desirable for the same reason it’s more satisfying to get a trophy or medal than a certificate. It just looks cooler.

They can offer the skin too, in addition to the trophy, but also offer the skin via other methods. I can see people being dissatisfied with just getting the achievement, so getting the skin too is fine, but getting exclusive access to that skin is just too much. You get an exclusive trophy to show that you accomplished something, and you get a non-exclusive skin so that you have something to put in your pocket.

Btw, what do you think of my idea of putting actual, physical trophies into the game? Instead of giving unique skins, model actual trophies for high end accomplishments, which you could then place in your home instance, guild hall, or even in your inventory and you could “activate” them like various other toys, and then stomp around town on it and pretend that everyone else is oohing and aahing at how awesome you are?

Face the facts here. There are already many content specific skins in the game. That isn’t going to change.

Why not? Dungeon armors were specific to dungeons at one point, now you can get them by AFKing a bunch of PvP matches (not that you should, but you can). Why do you deem it impossible that they would add other methods to make various rewards more inclusive?

Nobody’s saying legendary armor should be raid exclusive. We’re saying that there should be raid exclusive legendary armor. There whould be open world exclusive legendary armor, and pvp exclusive stuff, and fractal stuff, and so on.

They’ve said nothing of the sort though. Assuming they don’t already plan to do this, even if they decided to do it, it would take them time. Do you propose that it would be fine for open world players to do without until they get around to it? And what if they do have open world Legendary armor, but a player prefers the raid skin’s appearance? We’re still back to him not being able to get the skin he wants without running content he has no interest in doing.

I do however encourage you to open your mind to the very real possibility that raid legendaries will be limited to acquisition from raids just as open world ascended luminescant armor is limited to an open world zone

I think that both should be available to a wide variety of tasks. And BTW, Luminescent armor is not an open world thing. To earn most of it you need to complete difficult story mode acheivements which are, in content terms, much closer to raid content than they are to open world content. Once raid armors come out, I imagine there will be a lot more players that have both Lumi and Raid armors than that only have Lumi armor and do not raid.

It’s confirmed in the blog post that there will be rewards exclusive to raids. And frankly, that’s what it takes, otherwise people will run raids until they win for the challenge, and then they’ll have nothing to do.

And then we’re back to if this is true, then there is no good reason for raids to exist. If players truly do not want to raid unless you bribe them with exclusive rewards, then there is no reason to waste time on raid content. Instead find the content that players actually want to do, and just offer those same rewards to that content. The people that want the rewards will be happy AND the people who just want to play what they enjoy will also be happy. There is no benefit to bribing players to doing content they do not otherwise want to do.

Will people’s heads explode when they realize you can get armor precursors out of the mystic forge with the same odds as weapon precursors?

If that’s the case, and we’ve no indication that it would be, it would still be far too low a rate to be considered worthwhile. If you can get armor pieces out of the forge at current Precursor rates, but they drop from Raids at a much higher rate, then it would be no substitute whatsoever.

Ohoni, the fundamental difference here is that you’re trating the idea that everyone should have access to everything and required to do nothing specific to get it as fact.

It has clearly been demonstrated, again and again, that arenanet agrees with your thinking in regards to statistical power, and disagrees with it in regards to cosmetic variety.

It has also been clearly demonstrated that you are in the minority with this method of thinking.

I know you consider yourself “right” about this. However the overarcing structure of the game disagrees with you. Every bit of communication from arenanet disagrees with you, and by and large the community disagrees with you.

And for the record, dungeon skins were always avaliable through PvP, That’s actually why I have the HoW set in my wardrobe. Before they removed glory, PvP also had access to exclusive reward skins. After they killed glory they also added a new skin that is exclusive to pvp reward tracks. They’ve maintained the exclusivity of fractal skins to fractals.

In addition they’ve been pretty clear that they don’t want to force sPvP players in to PvE because sPvP characters are mechanically separate entities from PvE characters, and it is effectively asking them to reroll

I apologise for not being up on the exact lumi collection requirements, but the two pieces of the lumi collections not tied to silverwastes are actually tied to simply completing episodes. Lumi actually requires two separate pieces of specific content to complete, one of which requires gems to unlock if you didn’t unlock it for free.

The chief complaint about the game in general that nearly everyone has is that the loot is lame, and getting the same stuff everywhere is not fun.

I know in your mind it seems reasonable that every type of content should just pay out the same tokens which we can just insert in to a machine and pop out our desired skin, but the fact is that’s simply not fun, it’s not what players want, and the homogenization of loot is one of the primary complaints about the game across the board that anet has been hearing for years.

Skins are trophies in GW2. They’re the most valuable and most prestigious trophies because they’re the most visually exciting and can be seen by everyone around the owner. It has been true since launch, and asking it to change now without a suitably interesting replacement is folly.

Ohoni, the fundamental difference here is that you’re trating the idea that everyone should have access to everything and required to do nothing specific to get it as fact.

Not exactly, but fairly close. I basically believe it is something that should occur unless there is a very good reason not to. Players should have the things they want. Why not? So far, the reasons put forth as to why not are not very compelling.

You yourself have said that you don’t actually care about the skins themselves, you don’t want them as skins, you just want them as indications of your accomplishments. Well why can you not receive indications of your accomplishments that are in some form other than skins? Why is this not satisfactory to you?

What would make a handheld or displayed trophy be of less value to you as a reward than a skin that’s seeing nothing but the back of your wardrobe?

Why would a player who actually wants to wear that skin around, be less deserving of owning it than you, who just wants it in his closet, just because they don’t want to do a specific content that is arbitrarily linked to that clothing item?

It has also been clearly demonstrated that you are in the minority with this method of thinking.

Now that’s just nonsense math. You have no basis for that claim whatsoever. I’;m certainly in the minority in these forum threads, but this is not a scientific sampling of the game’s population, and cannot be used to extrapolate any valid data.

I know you consider yourself “right” about this. However the overarcing structure of the game disagrees with you. Every bit of communication from arenanet disagrees with you, and by and large the community disagrees with you.

I’m well aware that the current state of the game does not fit what I believe it should be, which is why I’m advocating for change. If people just accepted that the current situation was unsatisfactory, and took that as a sign that it never could be, then nothing would ever change.

And for the record, dungeon skins were always avaliable through PvP, That’s actually why I have the HoW set in my wardrobe. Before they removed glory, PvP also had access to exclusive reward skins.

See, there you go non-exclusive rewards.

I apologise for not being up on the exact lumi collection requirements, but the two pieces of the lumi collections not tied to silverwastes are actually tied to simply completing episodes. Lumi actually requires two separate pieces of specific content to complete, one of which requires gems to unlock if you didn’t unlock it for free.

Lumi requires you to not only complete the story chapters, but also to clear every achievement tied to those story chapters, many of which require you to complete “challenge motes” which present challenges comparable to smaller scale raid content. They are by no means “casual,” and are not any part of “open world content.” they are instanced, mostly group-based and highly skill-intensive (unless you get lucky or carried, and in some cases even being carried is extremely difficult).

Skins are trophies in GW2. They’re the most valuable and most prestigious trophies because they’re the most visually exciting and can be seen by everyone around the owner. It has been true since launch, and asking it to change now without a suitably interesting replacement is folly.

I believe the entire idea presented here is ridiculous, that somehow a certain skin or another is viewed as “prestigious” by other players. No wonder the game has an “Emperor’s New Wardrobe” achievement.

I apologise for the misinformation about lumi. I had not realized that they were offed on the vendor only after I had earned them by completing those achievements. I had assumed they were always there as I did the achievements before the SW open world content and haven’t really looked in to lumi as I don’t like the look of it and don’t find collections gratifying. I also find it appropriate that I don’t have access to lumi because I’m not willing to do the content connected to it.

The point stands that lumi requires extremely specific content. And is a meaningful achievement to acquire for thaose that obtain it for that specific reason.

You’ve also selectively quoted and responded to the bit about dungeon armor, conveniently omitting the exact reasoning those skins (and indeed any PvE skin) is avaliable in PvP. It’s not about choosing content. It’s about content parity for a game type that is so fundamentally separate that it does not share characters with PvP in a mechanical sense They removed glory specifically so that people didn’t feel that PvP stood in the way of PvE progress, and so that their rewards gained from specific content could be used and displayed universally.

I ask you though, how is your position any different from a belief that any achievement, or any of your theoretical trophy items, or any title should be granted by doing whatever content you like. Why can’t I obtain the “Golden” title by completing a dungeon? Why can’t I get the “Honorary Skritt” title through crafting?

You’ve simply singled out a specific reward type because you want to have access to all the skins, all the time. It has nothing to do with fairness or parity. You don’t value certain rewards, and thus are okay with not having access to them, but you value skins and thus feel that they should be made avaliable to you through means that you deem enjoyable.

A player who has done content tied to a skin is absolutely more deserving of the skin than someone who has not, regardless of how much they actually want to wear it because skins are the primary reward structure of the game I want those skins whether I wear them or not because the option to do so is intrinsically linked to my decision to attempt the content and my ability to complete it

It’s not about the skin being viewed as prestigious by other players. It’s about the skin actually being prestigious. Whether an individual player cares about prestige items, or how they view them is irrelevant. I don’t have to care about a full set of lumiscant armor for that armor to be proof that its wielder undertook a substantial and in some places difficult route to acquire it. What’s important is that the person wearing it knows, and that the people that want it know.

There are no legendary tales of Arthur pulling a bag of tokens from a stone, or recieving a magic business card from the lady of the lake for a very good reason. Tangible and usable trophies are part and parcel with not only the genre, but the core fantasy of the heroic epic. They’re why so many RPGs revolve around loot in the first place. You may not be one of those people, but for many of us it simply cheapens excalibur when you can either get it from a mysterious woman in a lake or for peeling 400 barrels of potatoes.

You don’t have to empathize with it. You can deny it. but the fact is your argument comes from that same desire. You want skins because they are a compelling reward and you play GW2 because you like getting items as loot

So does everyone else, and we want that loot to feel varied, special, and relevant to the tasks we undertake to acquire it.

I apologise for the misinformation about lumi. I had not realized that they were offed on the vendor only after I had earned them by completing those achievements. I had assumed they were always there as I did the achievements before the SW open world content and haven’t really looked in to lumi as I don’t like the look of it and don’t find collections gratifying. I also find it appropriate that I don’t have access to lumi because I’m not willing to do the content connected to it.

I own full Lumi, but even so I would be perfectly fine if they expended it a bit. 1000 badges is a little cheap, but I wouldn’t mind if people could buy a Lumi ingredient without clearing the required achievements if they spent like 3000 or more badges, and you could convert Geodes or dungeon tokens into badges if you preferred. It retains the thematic connections, just gives you more options.

You’ve also selectively quoted and responded to the bit about dungeon armor, conveniently omitting the exact reasoning those skins (and indeed any PvE skin) is avaliable in PvP. It’s not about choosing content. It’s about content parity for a game type that is so fundamentally separate that it does not share characters with PvP in a mechanical sense They removed glory specifically so that people didn’t feel that PvP stood in the way of PvE progress, and so that their rewards gained from specific content could be used and displayed universally.

I feel that raiding is no less far removed from more casual open world content than sPvP is. In fact, I’d bet you that there are going to be more serious raiders who are also serious PvPers than there will be serious raiders who are not. It’s an arbitrary distinction.

I ask you though, how is your position any different from a belief that any achievement, or any of your theoretical trophy items, or any title should be granted by doing whatever content you like. Why can’t I obtain the “Golden” title by completing a dungeon? Why can’t I get the “Honorary Skritt” title through crafting?

What would be the point of that? It just seems to me like a pointless strawman argument? I mean, turn it around in your head for a second, it’s like saying “why would you want to have Lumi armor if not to prove that you’ve completed the s2 achievements?” Well, the answer is “because I think it looks good on my character.”

So that’s why.

An achievement/title has no value beyond conveying that you’ve accomplished something. If it loses that value, then it has no purpose. While you insist that a skin can and should have a value as a trophy, and whether you agree with that or not, it does still retain an inherent value as an aesthetic option. People would still be swinging Twilight around whether it was a 3000g item on the TP or whether everyone got one as a log-in reward.

Given that skins have their own inherent value, while achievements/titles do not, that is why you should not just be able to get those “however,” while skins should be as available as possible to everyone who wants them. Now, I don’t mean that they should all be free and easy, different skins should require more work to create a reward cycle, but a variety of options should be available to minimize the chance that an engaged player will have to do content he has absolutely zero interest in.

A player who has done content tied to a skin is absolutely more deserving of the skin than someone who has not,

No, not in the least. The reward is only tied to the content because ANet said it was, for completely arbitrary reasons. The player who rand that arbitrary content is no more deserving of the item than another player who spent the same time and effort running some other arbitrary content.

It’s not about the skin being viewed as prestigious by other players. It’s about the skin actually being prestigious. Whether an individual player cares about prestige items, or how they view them is irrelevant. I don’t have to care about a full set of lumiscant armor for that armor to be proof that its wielder undertook a substantial and in some places difficult route to acquire it. What’s important is that the person wearing it knows, and that the people that want it know.

And again, you’re going back to trophy value, so if it’s about trophy value, why can you not be satisfied with yes, getting the Lumi armor, but also getting a “Season 2 Trophy” that you can wave around, while a player that just wants the Lumi armor can just get the Lumi armor through a more flexible method? You would retain 100% of the “prestige value,” while not artificially limiting that other player’s ability to wear the armor they want.

There are no legendary tales of Arthur pulling a bag of tokens from a stone, or recieving a magic business card from the lady of the lake for a very good reason.

Yeah, but that’s kitten reasoning in any MMO, where there are no truly unique items and anything you have, at least a few hundred, if not thousand, if not a hundred thousand people also have.

You don’t have to empathize with it. You can deny it. but the fact is your argument comes from that same desire. You want skins because they are a compelling reward and you play GW2 because you like getting items as loot

In part, yes, and I’m not suggesting anything that would remove that reward element. You would still have to work at the task, and the amount of work would remain equivalent. You would still have to earn the rewards through hard effort. All I suggest is that the method of that effort should be more flexible. Maybe you get the sword from the lady in the lake, maybe you pull it from a stone, maybe you kill a dragon and find it in his belly, maybe you craft your own from a thousand rare ingredients, maybe it’s a gift from saving a village, etc.

As the bard once noted:
King Arthur: The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water, signifying by divine providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. THAT is why I am your king.

Dennis: [interrupting] Listen, strange women lyin’ in ponds distributin’ swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.

Falso. Both titles and achievements have intrinsic values. Titles have the exact same intrinsic value as skins. They are things your character wears, that other people can see. Achievements have the intrinsic value of achievement points, which in turn grant (you guessed it) the primary reward mechanism of the game. unique cosmetic rewards

The suggestion that all skins should be avaliable through all forms of cintent is exactly the same argument that all titles should be avaliable through all content. Why do you wear a title? “because it looks good on my character” or “because I want to show off what I achieved to get it to the people around me” Titles are simply a gear slot, like minis or outfits, that happens to not have any stats or inventory items associated with it.

See, that’s the thing. You can’t have one without the other. If you’re arguing against content exclusive skins, it follows logically that if you claim to hold a balanced and equitable viewpoint, you must extend that logic to all forms of reward which players can display to others. This includes your theoretical trophy items, titles, tonics, minis, outfits, and with an extremely broad interpretation any item a player can link

You’re singling out skins because they are important rewards to you personally. The fact of the matter is that as a reward mechanism they are not different. They are things you can display in public view that prove you did a thing. Whether that thing was spend gems, use the SMS authenticator, hoard gold, defeated liadri, or completed a raid, every bit of this is a form of cosmetic skin and if they were not tied to specific means of acquisition, acquiring many of them would lose much of their meaning.

I get it. You want skins and you don’t want to raid. Attempting to twist the game to favor you personally is simply selfish. I want those cool sPvP skins. I don’t want to do sPvP. The difference between you and I is that I’m not attempting to stomp all over those players just because I want something they have and don’t want to put in the time in sPvP that they did.

Dennis was right, it’s no basis for a system of government, but it’s absolutely a basis for a nice story or an entertaining video game.

Falso. Both titles and achievements have intrinsic values. Titles have the exact same intrinsic value as skins. They are things your character wears, that other people can see. Achievements have the intrinsic value of achievement points, which in turn grant (you guessed it) the primary reward mechanism of the game. unique cosmetic rewards.

This is a bit of a facetious argument. Ok, last bit first, AP. AP is not a unique reward. Yes, if you complete Point of no Return you get 85 points for it, but you can do anything else to get 85 more points, including just running dailies. You’ll get every skin out of the AP system eventually even if you skip that one entirely. It is a currency, not a reward, like gold. The only time getting every possible AP is of any value is if you’re in the “best of the best” AP leaderboard chase, which is again about prestige, not intrinsic value.

To the first point about titles, sure, maybe some player would care so much about the “Toymaker” title that he’d drag himself through broken glass to get it, but I just can’t see that. It’s a weak argument of a edge case. People who care that much about the intrinsic value of titles are too few to matter. You can’t please everyone, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to please those who you can.

If you lined up a thousand players, and offered them their choice of two possible rewards, either their favorite possible skin, or their favorite possible title, each completely divorced from any content/prestige value, if you can honestly tell me that you believe even 10% would take the title, then I can just write you off as a crazy person in good conscience and we can both move on.

See, that’s the thing. You can’t have one without the other. If you’re arguing against content exclusive skins, it follows logically that if you claim to hold a balanced and equitable viewpoint, you must extend that logic to all forms of reward which players can display to others.

No, again that’s a factitious argument. It’s like when someone posts about how they want to donate to a given charity, and someone else comes in to say “well you can’t reasonably care for that charity, when all these other charities are deserving of attention too.” No, you can pick and choose causes. If someone else is seriously invested in titles, maybe he can make a case for them, I don’t know. I’m not going to make that case myself, and I’m not going to entertain it from you under these circumstances. I just don’t buy it.

You’re singling out skins because they are important rewards to you personally.

To a point. It certainly wouldn’t be a cause I’d spend my own time on if it wasn’t one I personally cared about. Still though, I don’t believe for a second that this is a cause only of value to me, and at least a few people around here agree on that. I believe that a large number of players in the game do care about the intrinsic value of skins, and will feel put out by the current proposed model. If that’s not true, then sure, they shouldn’t do anything, I’m not that important, but I don’t believe it’s not.

They are things you can display in public view that prove you did a thing.

Again though, that’s the trophy value, which you really must learn to distinguish from the inherent value. There are people who wear an armor to “show they did a thing,” ok, but there are also people who are fully geared level 80s who run around in combinations of 1-80 rare, masterwork, and even default armor pieces, because they like the way they fit together. I mean, my Necro at the moment is currently running around in a combo of Shadow chest, Seer gloves, CoF boots, the default skirt, and Teq wings, none of which too overly difficult to come by, but I think they look good together. My Mesmer is in full Lumi, but only because I think it looks cool on her tinted in purples and pinks with the Charr tail. She would have the same look even if Lumi armor was a log-in reward. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know.

I get it. You want skins and you don’t want to raid. Attempting to twist the game to favor you personally is simply selfish.

Yeah, kinda, but so is attempting to keep the skins out of the hands of non-raiders. Both sides are selfish, both sides want what they want. The less selfish side is the one with the most people on it. I do not believe yours does, but neither of us have figures to back it up. I accept that my side may be selfish, but in lack of numbers to prove it, so is yours, so I’m comfortable pushing for what would make me happy.

When I’ve heard that you will get the legendary armor is only through pve-content (I would add raids to this content), I’m just disappointed that the wvw players left out again, and are forced again to play content they don’t prefer.

The selectable stats are a big plus, when anet decide to change skills and everything, or just to test other traits and builds. After big changes I spent usually at least 60g for new armor/weapons/trinkets with new runes and sigils.

If there were a wvw alternative, they could maybe add specific mats for defending and conquering objects, escort and slaying yaks. Ofc, you shouldn’t be fast to reach the goal but also not impossible like the most wvw titles. It could take the same amount of time to finish it. Is it selfish to ask devs not to forget a part of their game? The regular wvw part of gw2 provide already an unwanted step child or “harry potter” feeling compared to other parts of the game: worst loot table, less gold amounts, unsolved bugs and problems for months and years, non-salvagable gear (no zommorros), cut off some fun items and so on …

Yeah, I would like share skins like the mistforged weapons with pve-players, when I could get legendaries with only playing wvw and maybe a small pve part. I would also share with you something from my dozens of spikes and hoofs I’ve got during a wvw raid or the tons of ascended materials which are account bound and blocking my bank spaces.

As I wrote, I’m just disappointed.

When I’ve heard that you will get the legendary armor is only through pve-content (I would add raids to this content), I’m just disappointed that the wvw players left out again, and are forced again to play content they don’t prefer.

I’m right there with you, I think they should be available through WvW, sPvP, PvE, all methods.

then don’t, play the way you like pick up ascended chests and you’re on equal ground.

Ohono, you’re missing the point again. it is specifically because skins are generally more desirable rewards that it is more appropriate that they be tied to specific bits of content. That perception of value is the very reason that content exclusive skins are more appropiate and meaningful rewards than title. As you said, it’s because if you lined up a hundred players and said “would you like a unique title or a unique skin for this collection/raid/pvp rank/world rank” The overwhelming consensus would be “I want a skin”

The desire that underpins your argument is the primary driver for that reward system. GW1 ran this model for seven years successfully with event less statistical variation and no real tiers of power, and it was the driving force that spread players around and made content feel rewarding. Getting those shiro’s blades felt like a meaningful and appropriate reward for killing shiro. Getting that tormented bow felt like an appropriate reward for conquering the realm of torment

Those items would have lost meaning, and percieved value if they could be bought off a merchant, or if you could trade a stack of husks for them.

I’m not saying raiding should own all the skins. I’m saying every game type should have its own selection of unique skins in addition to sets that can be had from two types of content, three, some that require a bit of everything, and some that you can get with just plain gold so you can do whatever you like.

Arenanet seems to agree, and while it’s unfortunate that you do not, I don’t think you realize the ramifications of what you’re proposing.

Ohono, you’re missing the point again. it is specifically because skins are generally more desirable rewards that it is more appropriate that they be tied to specific bits of content. That perception of value is the very reason that content exclusive skins are more appropiate and meaningful rewards than title. As you said, it’s because if you lined up a hundred players and said “would you like a unique title or a unique skin for this collection/raid/pvp rank/world rank” The overwhelming consensus would be “I want a skin”

No.

I reject that entire notion. That just goes back to people being happy that other people don’t have things that they have, and I do not support that. If people want to have a skin, and do not have a reasonable method for obtaining it, then that reduces their enjoyment of the game. Such situations should be minimized, not increased.

The desire that underpins your argument is the primary driver for that reward system. GW1 ran this model for seven years successfully with event less statistical variation and no real tiers of power, and it was the driving force that spread players around and made content feel rewarding. Getting those shiro’s blades felt like a meaningful and appropriate reward for killing shiro. Getting that tormented bow felt like an appropriate reward for conquering the realm of torment

From what I understand, almost any item in the game could be traded, so if you didn’t want to get it from the source, you could get it from other players instead. Look, if you want to get Shiro’s blades from Shiro, then I’m good with that. If you want to get the Tormented bow from the Realm of torment, I’m good with that, those methods should remain. But if you want those things but really very much do not want to do those tasks, then you should have the OPTION, and note the all caps version of the word “option,” for which I mean “a feature that you do NOT have to use if you feel it would be at all detrimental to your own experience,” you should have the option of pursuing the reward through other means that you might enjoy more.

But again, if you would not enjoy it more to pursue it via alternate means, then no one is forcing you to, unlike the existing method, which forces you into a fixed method whether you want to or not.

I’m not saying raiding should own all the skins. I’m saying every game type should have its own selection of unique skins in addition to sets that can be had from two types of content, three, some that require a bit of everything, and some that you can get with just plain gold so you can do whatever you like.

But that sort of system ONLY actually works if A. Every player enjoys every game type enough to enjoy participating in every game type, or B. Every player ONLY desires the rewards that are arbitrarily assigned to their preferred gametype and has no interest in ones arbitrarily assigned to other game types. Neither seems at all likely. So long as a player might hate PvP but still desire the armor that the developers arbitrarily decided should be attached to the PvP rewards, the “everyone gets their own exclusive rewards” argument just does not fly.

Valky.2574:

1 thing i loved about this game is i can do pretty much what ever i wanted and get what i want eventually but with legendary armor we can only get them in raids but what if i don’t like the raid mentality or guild mentality it’s why i quit eq2 and wow and now maybe gw2

So you take 1 step foreword with pre hunt and 1 back with legendary armor raid gate

It’s not really one step back. There are already tons of weapon and armor skins that are locked behind certain content. Why are these precursors any different? If you want Arah dungeon skin you have to do Arah. If you want any dungeon skin you have to do that dungeon. You want fractal skins? Guess what you have to do. I’ll give you a hint, you have to run fractals. The idea of certain skins being locked behind certain content is not new to the game.

To complain about it now makes no sense because it’s like you’re ignoring every other case of content locked skins to complain about this particular case of content locked skins.

ImTasty.2163:

Valky.2574:

1 thing i loved about this game is i can do pretty much what ever i wanted and get what i want eventually but with legendary armor we can only get them in raids but what if i don’t like the raid mentality or guild mentality it’s why i quit eq2 and wow and now maybe gw2

So you take 1 step foreword with pre hunt and 1 back with legendary armor raid gate

It’s not really one step back. There are already tons of weapon and armor skins that are locked behind certain content. Why are these precursors any different? If you want Arah dungeon skin you have to do Arah. If you want any dungeon skin you have to do that dungeon. You want fractal skins? Guess what you have to do. I’ll give you a hint, you have to run fractals. The idea of certain skins being locked behind certain content is not new to the game.

To complain about it now makes no sense because it’s like you’re ignoring every other case of content locked skins to complain about this particular case of content locked skins.

…. Umm point me where i said skin any where in my post thanks.

Astralporing.1957:

Bearhugger.4326:

It’s confirmed in the blog post that there will be rewards exclusive to raids. And frankly, that’s what it takes, otherwise people will run raids until they win for the challenge, and then they’ll have nothing to do. It takes a little carrot to make them keep playing after they beat the encounters. There are a lot of examples in other MMO with raids becoming ghosttowns after people beat them once due to no reward. The Ruby Sanctum raid in WoW is one such case.

That only means people weren’t there for the raid, but just for the rewards. To keep those that are actually interested in the content playing, all that is really needed is a right quantity of the rewards. No exclusivity should be necessary. If it is, that means raids are pulling in people that would have been equally happy (or happier) with acquiring those rewards from other sources.

What gets raiders raiding is the challenge and the exclusive rewards. You can argue that social is important too, but it’s orthogonal to raiding. (Social guilds don’t necessarily raid.)

If you beat the challenge and you have all encounters solidly on farm status, what’s left is the rewards. And if there’s no rewards? Raiders abandon the content. It’s as simple as that.

That’s what happens with unrewarding raid instances like Ruby Sanctum in WoW, and that’s what going to happen to GW2’s raids if they change their mind on legendary rewards. (Not that I think they’ll change their minds on the exclusivity of rewards because that’s how GW1 worked and that’s how GW2 was advertised to be before launch.)

Bearhugger.4326:

Astralporing.1957:

Bearhugger.4326:

It’s confirmed in the blog post that there will be rewards exclusive to raids. And frankly, that’s what it takes, otherwise people will run raids until they win for the challenge, and then they’ll have nothing to do. It takes a little carrot to make them keep playing after they beat the encounters. There are a lot of examples in other MMO with raids becoming ghosttowns after people beat them once due to no reward. The Ruby Sanctum raid in WoW is one such case.

That only means people weren’t there for the raid, but just for the rewards. To keep those that are actually interested in the content playing, all that is really needed is a right quantity of the rewards. No exclusivity should be necessary. If it is, that means raids are pulling in people that would have been equally happy (or happier) with acquiring those rewards from other sources.

What gets raiders raiding is the challenge and the exclusive rewards. You can argue that social is important too, but it’s orthogonal to raiding. (Social guilds don’t necessarily raid.)

If you beat the challenge and you have all encounters solidly on farm status, what’s left is the rewards. And if there’s no rewards? Raiders abandon the content. It’s as simple as that.

Note i did not say “no rewards”. I said “No unique rewards”. Also we’re back to the point that if the raiders are raiding for the rewards, and wouldn’t raid without them, then in the end it means that it’s not the raids themselves they are interested in.
If they were really interested in the challenge, then having raids be better/equally rewarding than other content in quantitative sense should be enough.

Basically, if people will stop doing raids just because legendary armor will become available elsewhere, then it means that the number of people that really wanted that content was just that small.

Astralporing.1957:

Bearhugger.4326:

Astralporing.1957:

Bearhugger.4326:

It’s confirmed in the blog post that there will be rewards exclusive to raids. And frankly, that’s what it takes, otherwise people will run raids until they win for the challenge, and then they’ll have nothing to do. It takes a little carrot to make them keep playing after they beat the encounters. There are a lot of examples in other MMO with raids becoming ghosttowns after people beat them once due to no reward. The Ruby Sanctum raid in WoW is one such case.

That only means people weren’t there for the raid, but just for the rewards. To keep those that are actually interested in the content playing, all that is really needed is a right quantity of the rewards. No exclusivity should be necessary. If it is, that means raids are pulling in people that would have been equally happy (or happier) with acquiring those rewards from other sources.

What gets raiders raiding is the challenge and the exclusive rewards. You can argue that social is important too, but it’s orthogonal to raiding. (Social guilds don’t necessarily raid.)

If you beat the challenge and you have all encounters solidly on farm status, what’s left is the rewards. And if there’s no rewards? Raiders abandon the content. It’s as simple as that.

Note i did not say “no rewards”. I said “No unique rewards”. Also we’re back to the point that if the raiders are raiding for the rewards, and wouldn’t raid without them, then in the end it means that it’s not the raids themselves they are interested in.
If they were really interested in the challenge, then having raids be better/equally rewarding than other content in quantitative sense should be enough.

Basically, if people will stop doing raids just because legendary armor will become available elsewhere, then it means that the number of people that really wanted that content was just that small.

It’s not about legendary armor. It’s about that specific set of legendary armor. I’m confident that, like ascended gear, there will be other ways to acquire it that aren’t tied to raids, but those legendary pieces will be visually distinct so that the raid armor retains its meaning and value. Doing fractals is’t about getting ascended items. It’s about getting fractal items, a unique skin that can only be acquired by persuing unique content.

I get that some people feel that they should be able to get everything and be required to do nothing specific for it, but it’s just plain bad for the longevity of the content.

People don’t do raids because of the challenge. they do them because of the challenge of obtaining a unique reward. For some of us, getting rewards without challenge isn’t fun, and neither is challenge without the unique reward.

I get that you don’t understand it, but it’s pretty a common risk-reward design, and as long as they don’t make the wildstar mistake and over-emphasize that sort of challenging content and leave those that choose not to do with nothing to strive for in the content they do enjoy, everybody ends up with something they like, and the only people left complaining are the ones that demand to have it all for no reason other than they feel they deserve to have the rules bent around their personal preference or play style.

What gets raiders raiding is the challenge and the exclusive rewards. You can argue that social is important too, but it’s orthogonal to raiding. (Social guilds don’t necessarily raid.)

The challenge I’m fine with, but if it’s the exclusive rewards, then I’d rather those rewards be “exclusive” to something much more casual. I refuse to accept the idea that if raiders require both challenging content AND bribery, that it’s an element the game needs at all.

If you beat the challenge and you have all encounters solidly on farm status, what’s left is the rewards. And if there’s no rewards? Raiders abandon the content. It’s as simple as that.

Then there’s no reason to make the content in the first place. Skip to the end, spend the time making content people actually want to repeat. Now that isn’t to say that Raids should not be rewarding, they can offer just as much reward as anything else, it just shouldn’t be exclusive to raiding.

and the only people left complaining are the ones that demand to have it all for no reason other than they feel they deserve to have the rules bent around their personal preference or play style.

But isn’t that what the raiders are doing, demanding that the rules be bent aaround their personal playstyle? The only difference is that for you guys, the rules came pre-bent. Are you seriously telling me that if they announced raiding exactly as they did, but said that all the rewards could be earned elsewhere, nothing unique, that you guys would not be complaining all over the place that raiders need their own special shinies because they are oh so important and entitled?

Why does all the other content need “bribery” then? In fact, why do we need rewards at all? Why do we need gold, karma, skins, or anything to be locked behind any content? Wouldn’t it be more fair if we just unlocked it all on account creation so people could just repeat whatever they found fun? Certainly. Would it be as much fun? No.

Your posts are much better when you don’t devolve in to thinly cloaked insults.

Nobody asked for any rules to be bent but you. Exclusive content rewards have existed since the game went live. They are in place, and have been forever. Typically, the more challenging the content is the more likely it is to have an exclusive skin. At launch they locked karma skins behind god temples, which were their theoretical challenge focused endgame. They locked dungeon skins behind dungeons, again their theoretical challenge focused end game. I’m citing a precedent that exists. That’s not asking for the rules to be bent. That’s stating that enforcing the existing rules works and is fun.

They didn’t create legendary tracks for a whole new set of legendaries and make them account bound because they though buying a legendary off the TP was a working design because it wasn’t. The message was a quite clear “we want people to earn the most difficult to acquire things themselves. We don’t want them acquired by proxy. We want them to undergo the content we decided to link to the rewards”

You may feel it’s “arbitrary” but it isn’t at all arbitrary. It’s a fundamental reward mechanism that is core to the way the game works, and it always has been in GW2

The introduction of raids with raid exclusive cosmetic rewards should be a clear indication that this is a reward mechanism that arenanet likes, that players want more of, and that “play your way” does not and never did mean “you can have everything you want by doing only what you want to do to get it” it mean “There are extensive reward paths for all types of content which pay out their own special rewards”

I’ll leave this thread now for you to state your opinions, and out of politeness I’d usually wish you luck, but in this case I can’t do so with any shred of honesty.

The clamor over this is far far less than the clamor over ascended, and they didn’t reverse course there, so you can rest assured they’re not going to reverse course on this. At best they’ll introduce another set of legendary armor for non-raiders (and for the record I think they should) to mend the perception of mechanical inequality.

Enjoy your thread, and I hope you can stomach the future of a GW2 that continues to run the way it always has and remain part of our community.

Why does all the other content need “bribery” then? In fact, why do we need rewards at all? Why do we need gold, karma, skins, or anything to be locked behind any content?

The other content doesn’t need bribery either. Justy have a basic reward structure, do the content, get a prize. If you prefer to do content A to get the prize, do content A. If you prefer content B to get the prize, then do content B. It’s only bribery if the argument can be made that “well if it didn’t offer the reward it does, then I would do something else instead.”

If you assert that the developers have to give a certain type of content an exclusive reward, that it wouldn’t play it if it just offered rewards comparable to other content, even if there was more of it, then that’s just straight bribery, and such content does not deserve to exist because clearly people don’t actually want to do it.

Wouldn’t it be more fair if we just unlocked it all on account creation so people could just repeat whatever they found fun? Certainly. Would it be as much fun? No.

No, it wouldn’t, which is why nobody is asking for that. I don’t see why you can’t actually argue the topic at hand, and instead need to keep resorting to strawmen, “well what if they pushed it to extremes that nobody actually asked for, wouldn’t it be bad then?” “Of course it would be bad then, which is why nobody is asking for it.” Can we return to the actual topic now?

Nobody asked for any rules to be bent but you. Exclusive content rewards have existed since the game went live. They are in place, and have been forever. Typically, the more challenging the content is the more likely it is to have an exclusive skin. At launch they locked karma skins behind god temples, which were their theoretical challenge focused endgame. They locked dungeon skins behind dungeons, again their theoretical challenge focused end game. I’m citing a precedent that exists. That’s not asking for the rules to be bent. That’s stating that enforcing the existing rules works and is fun.

“Maintain the stuatus quo” is a choice too. Those asking that rewards not be broadened are in no way “superior” to those asking them to be changed. It’s all just pressing for a an outcome that we believe more players would prefer.

They didn’t create legendary tracks for a whole new set of legendaries and make them account bound because they though buying a legendary off the TP was a working design because it wasn’t. The message was a quite clear “we want people to earn the most difficult to acquire things themselves. We don’t want them acquired by proxy. We want them to undergo the content we decided to link to the rewards”

If they wanted Legendaries to work differently, then they would work differently. They never had to allow them to be put on the TP, but they did, and could remove them from the TP at any time, but they haven’t. They could have added new methods for earning them at any time, but they haven’t until recently.

You may feel it’s “arbitrary” but it isn’t at all arbitrary. It’s a fundamental reward mechanism that is core to the way the game works, and it always has been in GW2

I think you miss what I meant by “arbitrary.” I meant that when they design armors, in many cases those armors could be anything. If they do end up designing “Raid Legendary” and they also design “Prole Legendary” armors, and they are identical except that the Raid version has rounded scrollwork while the Prole version has squared scrollwork, why is that? It’s arbitrary. And there will be raiders who want the Prole version and proles who want the Raider version, and they won’t have it, why? Because some developer slipped a coin and determined which would get which.

Raiders act like they deserve raid armor. That it only exists because they raid, and that they’ve earned it like salary at a job. That’s not how this works, that’s not how any of this works. They didn’t create legendary armor because raiders were going to raid it, they created it because there’s a team of artists who only have that job to make armor, and they will just keep making armor, and the other devs decide how to distribute it out to the players. If they aren’t designing armor for raiding, they’re spending that time designing armor for other areas of the game, it’s a zero-sum system.

You don’t “earn” armor by running a raid, you are not “generating” anything by running a raid, it is not like a job in which you generate productivity by doing your job and increase profits for your company. You are playing a game, it is purely for your own entertainment, and if you are running a raid when another player is running open world content then you’re playing Scrabble while they’re playing Monopoly, and there’s no reason why you “deserve” better rewards for that, the developers just chose to apply a better reward to that activity. And they shouldn’t have. And they can always fix that mistake.

Ohoni.6057:

You don’t “earn” armor by running a raid, you are not “generating” anything by running a raid

This is the primary flaw in your thinking. We are not going to see eye to eye on this, and you are not going to convince anyone of anything with this line of thinking.

We are playing a game, and like in any game mankind has ever played, we earn victory. In some games the reward is simply the victory, the knowledge that you won. In others victory has a tangible and quanitfiable reward.

This is a game in which victory confers a quantifiable reward with a direct corrolary to the challenges undertaken. It is not arbitrary. It is not bribery. It is not unfair. It will not change as drastically as you want it to.

Good luck finding your dream game where everything is purchased with the same token rewarded in different quantities. I’m sure it exists, and I’m sure it’s less fun than this one. Have a pleasant time with the rest of your thread.