Guild Wars 2

I’m just wondering if, for the traits, there is a reason why we will end up being locked into lines we may not want. As in, the lovely trait for reduced falling damage. If we want that trait, we will be locked into whatever line has it, even if there is nothing else in that line that fits where we want to go with our characters.

This one trait, specifically, needs to either be removed from the traits completely, or be used as a reason to NOT lock us into a set line to the end. There are a lot of us that use this trait almost constantly, and this is not the best news for us.

Yes, I’m going to wait and see, but still.

That’s what it seems like, the choice locking is pretty narrow and lame.

Yeah, I completely don’t understand why they are limiting us to 3 trait lines. Makes no sense.

Totally disagree.
They want us to make bigger decisions, to actually think.
People have to stop seeing the new system as restriction. Quite the contrary!
→ Traits got merged, you save space for other useful traits
→ Ability to use 3 grandmaster traits
→ You can trait into defensive traitlines without losing damage stats

I remember before launch we could choose any traits in each line as we wished. There were no restrictions within a line. Then, right before launch they put in the restrictions. People protested in the forum about it and others said it was a good thing to restrict your choices. So, now they restrict it even more and people say it’s a better system than what we has. If each time they restrict choices makes it better, then they should remove all choices to achieve the perfect system.

No one really speccs into more than 2-3 traitlines in the current trait system. Some builds are spread out but that is mostly because of the stats. With stats removed from traits it’s no longer needed.

Zoid.2568:

No one really speccs into more than 2-3 traitlines in the current trait system. Some builds are spread out but that is mostly because of the stats. With stats removed from traits it’s no longer needed.

You are mistaken, my mesmer build uses (legitimately) 4 trait lines currently, chosen for the traits rather than the stats. Mind you, the trickster build has been erased completely from the new system so being limited to 3 trait paths is the least of my worries.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I remember before launch we could choose any traits in each line as we wished. There were no restrictions within a line. Then, right before launch they put in the restrictions. People protested in the forum about it and others said it was a good thing to restrict your choices. So, now they restrict it even more and people say it’s a better system than what we has. If each time they restrict choices makes it better, then they should remove all choices to achieve the perfect system.

Personally, I agree. Before launch it allowed us to make an insane amount of different builds and offered far more diversity.
Locking us into 3 trait lines does make us think more about our builds but how annoying is it going to be when we want to change it?
Are they going to introduce a “save build” feature so that our choices are remembered and we can load it from a template like in gw1?
Also, it very much smacks of “lets keep it simple for the new players” which screws over people who can make diverse and balanced builds without restrictions.

Lana Del Rey.1873:

Totally disagree.
They want us to make bigger decisions, to actually think.

For the record, this is completely untrue. They want the process to be almost mind-numbingly easy.

Choosing 1 from a limited pool of 3
Then choosing 1 from another separate, limited pool of 3
And finally choosing 1 from another separate pool of 3

Takes a ton less thought than~

Choose 1 from a pool of 6
Then choose 1 from a pool of 11 that includes 6 new choices
And finally choose 1 from a pool of 13 that includes 3 new choices.

The psychology of choice in game systems is actually a pretty well understood field and “choose 1 of 3 options” is the holy grail of “most people can accept they’re just guessing in the absence of experience”. It is designed to reduce option paralysis and measured in those terms it will succeed brilliantly.

This system is not for dedicated build-crafters. It is for the most casual of the casual, like the New Player Experience.

In the original posts question, did anyone ever run the fall damage traits all the time?

The old answer is still true, just switch in as appropriate, then switch back.

I run them all the time, Windsagio. I can’t speak for anyone else, I may be the single player who loves them enough to keep them permanently equipped, but I somehow doubt I’m that unique.

Now am I still in a tiny minority that needn’t be heeded in this? Possibly. I’ve certainly seen a number of threads and posters stating they find the fall damage traits super useful and agreeing with my feeling that the current iteration of the new format does not adequately address the need for them.

I know there will be teething pains with any massive system overhaul. Most of us will adapt to however it shakes out. Still, as we are in the feedback stage, I think us free-fallers are pointing out enough reasonable concerns that ANet can take a look at the metrics to see how much the traits are used overall and decide if they want to let a chunk of their player base lose a treasured part of terrain navigation.

Donari.5237:

I run them all the time, Windsagio. I can’t speak for anyone else, I may be the single player who loves them enough to keep them permanently equipped, but I somehow doubt I’m that unique.

Now am I still in a tiny minority that needn’t be heeded in this? Possibly. I’ve certainly seen a number of threads and posters stating they find the fall damage traits super useful and agreeing with my feeling that the current iteration of the new format does not adequately address the need for them.

I know there will be teething pains with any massive system overhaul. Most of us will adapt to however it shakes out. Still, as we are in the feedback stage, I think us free-fallers are pointing out enough reasonable concerns that ANet can take a look at the metrics to see how much the traits are used overall and decide if they want to let a chunk of their player base lose a treasured part of terrain navigation.

Oh no, if people do it, that’s fine. Just struck me as weird :p

For most of the classes you’re forced into specific trait lines just because you hold a type of weapon.

I wish all weapon traits were baseline.

Lana Del Rey.1873:

Totally disagree.
They want us to make bigger decisions, to actually think.
People have to stop seeing the new system as restriction. Quite the contrary!
-> Traits got merged, you save space for other useful traits
-> Ability to use 3 grandmaster traits
-> You can trait into defensive traitlines without losing damage stats

What? We don’t save space for other “useful” traits. We’re stuck with whatever garbage or blessing the developers gave us, and what if I don’t want to use 3 grandmaster traits? That’s also a decision I would be making. And we don’t care about the fact that we can go into traitlines without losing damage, we don’t want to be locking into a traitline we only want a part of!

McNinja.5417:

Lana Del Rey.1873:

Totally disagree.
They want us to make bigger decisions, to actually think.
People have to stop seeing the new system as restriction. Quite the contrary!
-> Traits got merged, you save space for other useful traits
-> Ability to use 3 grandmaster traits
-> You can trait into defensive traitlines without losing damage stats

What? We don’t save space for other “useful” traits. We’re stuck with whatever garbage or blessing the developers gave us, and what if I don’t want to use 3 grandmaster traits? That’s also a decision I would be making. And we don’t care about the fact that we can go into traitlines without losing damage, we don’t want to be locking into a traitline we only want a part of!

If you don’t want to use the three grandmaster traits, you would be in the same position as those people who put points in trait lines without actually reaching the next major or minor trait in the old system. That was a thing. Degenerate builds I think they called them. It was allowed, sure, but it wasn’t elegant or ideal to allow people to do that. I’m pretty sure that’s the same conclusion they reached when considering all the people mixing only adept or major traits in a line and avoiding grandmasters. I’ve done it and I imagine a lot of builds do. This is where the question of design, intent and balance comes in. The devs have an intent for how they expect you to interact with the trait system and that’s why they are shifting the paradigm to make build choices clearer, redefining trait lines to include specializations, and changing up some of the grandmaster traits. If the loss of the sheer number of potential trait combinations is a problem, consider they intend to add new lines of elite specializations and the number will continue to rise with time. And some of those potential trait combinations really were a non-option for a lot of players as evidenced by how many took them anyway. So, not a real loss outside of looking at the total number of combinations.

This is an approach to balance in my view. Anet feels they can’t appropriately balance traits so that players actually go deep into lines (which seems to be what they want players to do) so they lock us in.

The first round of restrictions we got were for this reason, people just picked the handful of good traits and never touched the rest. Rather than scrap or rework the traits the players didn’t use, they simply shuffled them around to force us to dig for them. The difference now is that you’re picking 3 lines and are even further restricted. On the bright side some traits are better and this is easier for them to balance. The downside is this feels worse for players who really liked to experiment and build craft.

Overall the changes are mostly good…its just limiting. The one thing I feel people might be missing is that many things seemed to have become base line or combined into other traits. We’ll have less choices, but the quality of those choices looks to be better.

Lara Hesperax.2537:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I remember before launch we could choose any traits in each line as we wished. There were no restrictions within a line. Then, right before launch they put in the restrictions. People protested in the forum about it and others said it was a good thing to restrict your choices. So, now they restrict it even more and people say it’s a better system than what we has. If each time they restrict choices makes it better, then they should remove all choices to achieve the perfect system.

Personally, I agree. Before launch it allowed us to make an insane amount of different builds and offered far more diversity.
Locking us into 3 trait lines does make us think more about our builds but how annoying is it going to be when we want to change it?
Are they going to introduce a “save build” feature so that our choices are remembered and we can load it from a template like in gw1?
Also, it very much smacks of “lets keep it simple for the new players” which screws over people who can make diverse and balanced builds without restrictions.

But wait, you didn’t keep going, you stopped to soon…now let’s say you have all the traits unlocked..well, guess what…I like those two Grand Master traits in that one line…so I’m going to choose those…

Lana Del Rey.1873

Totally disagree.
They want us to make bigger decisions, to actually think.
People have to stop seeing the new system as restriction. Quite the contrary!
? Traits got merged, you save space for other useful traits
? Ability to use 3 grandmaster traits
? You can trait into defensive traitlines without losing damage stats

Yes, and most grandmaster traits still suck. Giving us fifty percent more suck -which we’ll have to select from when these changes go live- doesn’t sound good to me nor does it make up for what we’re losing.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty doesn’t signify much when someone’s spat in it first before giving it over to you. Just saying.

Zaklex.6308:

Lara Hesperax.2537:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

I remember before launch we could choose any traits in each line as we wished. There were no restrictions within a line. Then, right before launch they put in the restrictions. People protested in the forum about it and others said it was a good thing to restrict your choices. So, now they restrict it even more and people say it’s a better system than what we has. If each time they restrict choices makes it better, then they should remove all choices to achieve the perfect system.

Personally, I agree. Before launch it allowed us to make an insane amount of different builds and offered far more diversity.
Locking us into 3 trait lines does make us think more about our builds but how annoying is it going to be when we want to change it?
Are they going to introduce a “save build” feature so that our choices are remembered and we can load it from a template like in gw1?
Also, it very much smacks of “lets keep it simple for the new players” which screws over people who can make diverse and balanced builds without restrictions.

But wait, you didn’t keep going, you stopped to soon…now let’s say you have all the traits unlocked..well, guess what…I like those two Grand Master traits in that one line…so I’m going to choose those…

/shrug. Like that’s a problem? Most are grandmaster in name only.

I haven’t bothered to unlock all my grandmaster traits and on the lines I do have them unlocked, I’m just as likely to pick a lower choice for that slot.

binidj.5734:

You are mistaken, my mesmer build uses (legitimately) 4 trait lines currently, chosen for the traits rather than the stats. Mind you, the trickster build has been erased completely from the new system so being limited to 3 trait paths is the least of my worries.

Have you looked at the relocation/merger of the traits and seen what build would play in that spirit? If you were focused on clone replacement death traits then it might be one of those bad for the player good for the game changes.

I never focus on stats from Trait lines. I make builds based on the side effects of traits themselves.

nightwulf.1986:

McNinja.5417:

Lana Del Rey.1873:

Totally disagree.
They want us to make bigger decisions, to actually think.
People have to stop seeing the new system as restriction. Quite the contrary!
-> Traits got merged, you save space for other useful traits
-> Ability to use 3 grandmaster traits
-> You can trait into defensive traitlines without losing damage stats

What? We don’t save space for other “useful” traits. We’re stuck with whatever garbage or blessing the developers gave us, and what if I don’t want to use 3 grandmaster traits? That’s also a decision I would be making. And we don’t care about the fact that we can go into traitlines without losing damage, we don’t want to be locking into a traitline we only want a part of!

If you don’t want to use the three grandmaster traits, you would be in the same position as those people who put points in trait lines without actually reaching the next major or minor trait in the old system. That was a thing. Degenerate builds I think they called them. It was allowed, sure, but it wasn’t elegant or ideal to allow people to do that. I’m pretty sure that’s the same conclusion they reached when considering all the people mixing only adept or major traits in a line and avoiding grandmasters. I’ve done it and I imagine a lot of builds do. This is where the question of design, intent and balance comes in. The devs have an intent for how they expect you to interact with the trait system and that’s why they are shifting the paradigm to make build choices clearer, redefining trait lines to include specializations, and changing up some of the grandmaster traits. If the loss of the sheer number of potential trait combinations is a problem, consider they intend to add new lines of elite specializations and the number will continue to rise with time. And some of those potential trait combinations really were a non-option for a lot of players as evidenced by how many took them anyway. So, not a real loss outside of looking at the total number of combinations.

people do that because in many lines the grandmaster traits were weak or useless for your build so you didnt take them.

Rialen.1524:

That’s what it seems like, the choice locking is pretty narrow and lame.

Seems like anet don’t care about build diversity…oh well time is running out. This is after all coming up to the 5th month, which means we are starting to come up to a couple of expected game release points.

Changing, shaking things up always a good thing. If everything are the same i get bored

Bran.7425:

binidj.5734:

You are mistaken, my mesmer build uses (legitimately) 4 trait lines currently, chosen for the traits rather than the stats. Mind you, the trickster build has been erased completely from the new system so being limited to 3 trait paths is the least of my worries.

Have you looked at the relocation/merger of the traits and seen what build would play in that spirit? If you were focused on clone replacement death traits then it might be one of those bad for the player good for the game changes.

Yes I have, the build is simply not supported by the new system.

The idea is that clones are indistinguishable from the mesmer (so auras are to be avoided except when the guano hits the rotating blades) and actually put out a fair bit of damage (not nearly as much as a more bursty build but trickster is a long-term strategy) while active, so it’s in the interests of the mesmer to keep them alive and casting until summoning skills (aside from dodge which is generally used for dodging unless it’s a faceroll fight in which case builds are pretty much irrelevant) refresh sufficient to bring a full set of 3 straight back; Shatter is not something that gets used very often (except in faceroll fights). So ideally all clones should be active, so the idea is that if one is destroyed then they apply a few conditions as a sort of consolation prize. The clone-bomb can also give a bit of breathing space to summon a replacement.

Trickster is probably not “meta” but I enjoy it as a build, it works well enough, and it feels very mesmer-y … even though it doesn’t utilise shatters.

The new traits don’t support any retaliation on clones, includes shatter skills everywhere and also has traits that either apply an aura or require an aura to be active in order to function … thus utterly breaking any chance of hide-and-seek.

Knighthonor.4061:

nightwulf.1986:

If you don’t want to use the three grandmaster traits, you would be in the same position as those people who put points in trait lines without actually reaching the next major or minor trait in the old system. That was a thing. Degenerate builds I think they called them. It was allowed, sure, but it wasn’t elegant or ideal to allow people to do that. I’m pretty sure that’s the same conclusion they reached when considering all the people mixing only adept or major traits in a line and avoiding grandmasters. I’ve done it and I imagine a lot of builds do. This is where the question of design, intent and balance comes in. The devs have an intent for how they expect you to interact with the trait system and that’s why they are shifting the paradigm to make build choices clearer, redefining trait lines to include specializations, and changing up some of the grandmaster traits. If the loss of the sheer number of potential trait combinations is a problem, consider they intend to add new lines of elite specializations and the number will continue to rise with time. And some of those potential trait combinations really were a non-option for a lot of players as evidenced by how many took them anyway. So, not a real loss outside of looking at the total number of combinations.

people do that because in many lines the grandmaster traits were weak or useless for your build so you didnt take them.

That’s been established. But the changes coming up mean you either have to make the choice to select a grandmaster, or not select one at all and end up with unused points, much like how they changed the number of points in a trait line from 30 points to 6. Seeing how many people didn’t take grandmasters at all meant that grandmasters were too weak, unwanted, and being circumvented by players too easily. It’s speculation based on their recent design choices, but it seems Anet really wants players to use grandmasters instead of using only adepts and majors. They’ve made them semi-required now, the balance portion of this scheme is what it takes to make them desired.

Iozeph.5617:

Lana Del Rey.1873

Totally disagree.
They want us to make bigger decisions, to actually think.
People have to stop seeing the new system as restriction. Quite the contrary!
? Traits got merged, you save space for other useful traits
? Ability to use 3 grandmaster traits
? You can trait into defensive traitlines without losing damage stats

Yes, and most grandmaster traits still suck. Giving us fifty percent more suck -which we’ll have to select from when these changes go live- doesn’t sound good to me nor does it make up for what we’re losing.

Whether the glass is half full or half empty doesn’t signify much when someone’s spat in it first before giving it over to you. Just saying.

I can’t help but agree with you, the core spec mesmer GM traits are still terrible. There was good reason for me skipping every GM trait on my mesmer…now they want to force me to choose three of them!?! My mesmer is a phantasm build and the most useful traits are blade training, warden’s feedback, illusionist’s celerity, empowered illusions, and critical infusion. They are as spread out across multiple trait lines as they could make them…while still keeping all the grandmaster traits as useless as possible. If they are going to force GM traits on us, at least make them worth taking. The proposed ones they have listed so far do not include a single one that I would actually take.

I actually like the fact they are combining traits now…that should have happened a long time ago honestly. I think they still need to introduce some redundancy in the trait choices if they are going to lock us into only being able to choose from 3 trait lines at a time. I don’t like that they are locking us out of being able to take multiple adept/master traits in the same line…while still keeping GM traits as crappy as ever.

nightwulf.1986:

That’s been established. But the changes coming up mean you either have to make the choice to select a grandmaster, or not select one at all and end up with unused points, much like how they changed the number of points in a trait line from 30 points to 6. Seeing how many people didn’t take grandmasters at all meant that grandmasters were too weak, unwanted, and being circumvented by players too easily. It’s speculation based on their recent design choices, but it seems Anet really wants players to use grandmasters instead of using only adepts and majors. They’ve made them semi-required now, the balance portion of this scheme is what it takes to make them desired.

I have an idea. How about making the GM traits actually desirable to make them desired? If they already know they are terrible…how about actually fixing that instead of trying to force terrible choices on the players.

This looks worst the more I think about it.

My favorite Engie uses 4 trait lines. One of them is for Speedy Kits only, because that trait is just too god not to have it, and synergizes with the res of the build, but I can change it to take Explosive Descent whenever I need to.

I just take 1 trait and change it for another 1. 1 for 1. Simple, quick and easy. That was the purpose of making the system flexible and changeable on the go, am I right?

Well, now I can’t change just 1 for 1 trait. Now is 3 for 3. Always. Just to get the descent bonus and don’t die in that specific jump.

WTF.

Putting the cart before the horse. As it was said before you will have many different ways to your spec traits and not funneled into using just a select few. This is before Elites come into place. This gives further customization to your builds. Now how these will work out we shall see, but jumping the gun before we seen everything is typical impatience at work.

I honestly don’t understand how people can always convince themselves that limiting options actually “increases” choice and customization.

You can say all you want about whether or not the changes will be good for the game, but you can’t claim that limiting a player’s options increases customization.

Ardid.7203:

This looks worst the more I think about it.

My favorite Engie uses 4 trait lines. One of them is for Speedy Kits only, because that trait is just too god not to have it, and synergizes with the res of the build, but I can change it to take Explosive Descent whenever I need to.

I just take 1 trait and change it for another 1. 1 for 1. Simple, quick and easy. That was the purpose of making the system flexible and changeable on the go, am I right?

Well, now I can’t change just 1 for 1 trait. Now is 3 for 3. Always. Just to get the descent bonus and don’t die in that specific jump.

WTF.

It’s actually really annoying when you need to swap out traits right now because of the UI. You have to select a slot, which opens up the trait menu, then select the trait. With the new UI, you can just click on the new trait and bam. If you need to switch a trait line, then it’s just 4 clicks. It will take longer to switch one trait, but it will take a lot less time to switch all of them. Those are some pros and cons, at least.

Sekhmet.6153:

I honestly don’t understand how people can always convince themselves that limiting options actually “increases” choice and customization.

You can say all you want about whether or not the changes will be good for the game, but you can’t claim that limiting a player’s options increases customization.

You actually will have 196,830 different possible trait combinations with the new system, which is only 9.2% fewer options than the one we currently have now. The illusion of being limited is just that; an illusion. If they handed us 5 builds and said “pick from these 5”, then we’d have a serious issue. We still have many choices though, and plenty of those choice will be bad just as there are plenty of choices now that are bad.

Well I’m not trying to be overly critical, but nearly 10% less options is still less customization and is still the point I was making. Thats not an illusion.

The issue you’re commenting on, about this introducing more builds that will likely be competitive, is different. Not every player is interested in being viable since not every player is going to play with someone other than friends. I know quite a few players who will only play with friends or solo. Those players aren’t going to be concerned with making sure their build is considered good or bad.

But I get it. People see some increased stats and damage potential so now there will be a handful of newer builds that might be asked for in dungeons and WvW, and thats a good thing. I just don’t think anyone should continue to try and treat it like its increasing overall customization.

Sekhmet.6153:

Well I’m not trying to be overly critical, but nearly 10% less options is still less customization and is still the point I was making. Thats not an illusion.

The issue you’re commenting on, about this introducing more builds that will likely be competitive, is different. Not every player is interested in being viable since not every player is going to play with someone other than friends. I know quite a few players who will only play with friends or solo. Those players aren’t going to be concerned with making sure their build is considered good or bad.

But I get it. People see some increased stats and damage potential so now there will be a handful of newer builds that might be asked for in dungeons and WvW, and thats a good thing. I just don’t think anyone should continue to try and treat it like its increasing overall customization.

I agree. Technically speaking, it’s not increasing overall customization; the numbers are pretty clear. However, it’s not the only change. Unbinding stats from the trait lines may have some extraordinary effects, since you don’t have to kitten yourself for losing a 2H weapon and chest-worth of stats by going into something aside from the power and crit trait lines. It’s more the entirety of the changes they are making that would improve customizability, even if it doesn’t necessarily increase the number of options available.

Then again, I’m not a professional theorycrafter like some of the people on the forums here, so I’ll concede that I really don’t know how everything will play out. I like to think that Anet wants us to like and continue to play the game, and these changes make it feel like at least an attempt at a good thing, even if it turns out to be bad. Time will tell.

Edit: apparently, that word is chat filtered. Huh.

Keysha.2815:

I’m just wondering if, for the traits, there is a reason why we will end up being locked into lines we may not want. As in, the lovely trait for reduced falling damage. If we want that trait, we will be locked into whatever line has it, even if there is nothing else in that line that fits where we want to go with our characters.

Just like now traits are specific to a given line, so if you want a trait you’d have to go into that line.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

If each time they restrict choices makes it better, then they should remove all choices to achieve the perfect system.

I think you’re logic is a bit flawed, you’re kinda falling back on all-or-nothing thinking. You should go with Goldilocks-logic here: too much isn’t good and neither is too little, but somewhere in the middle it’s just right.

Windsagio.1340:

In the original posts question, did anyone ever run the fall damage traits all the time?

My mesmer for map completion, but certainly not all the time.

McWolfy.5924:

Changing, shaking things up always a good thing. If everything are the same i get bored

that’s the spirit!

Sekhmet.6153:

I honestly don’t understand how people can always convince themselves that limiting options actually “increases” choice and customization.

You can say all you want about whether or not the changes will be good for the game, but you can’t claim that limiting a player’s options increases customization.

And here we go. It has been factually PROVEN that this new system won’t limit builds, but instead fixing the ones that didnt work or upset balance in game by either merging them or ridding it altogether. Add in a new weapon and elite specializations and you got a new set of builds to explore. Will some of them work? Sure. Will some be broken and useable? Knock youself out and think that.

MiniEquine.6014:

Unbinding stats from the trait lines may have some extraordinary effects, since you don’t have to kitten yourself for losing a 2H weapon and chest-worth of stats by going into something aside from the power and crit trait lines. It’s more the entirety of the changes they are making that would improve customizability, even if it doesn’t necessarily increase the number of options available.

The fear I feel is based on what we have already received in the past/have at current and what it’s likely to turn into. All things considered, this can really work. However, this pretty much REQUIRES ArenaNet to make really good M/GM traits for each and every line. There can be absolutely zero dud lines. Because if they aren’t worth using, you’re going to find people forced out of traitlines because “going into it isn’t effective”. It’s essentially the same problem that we have now with attribute points being tied to traits.

The build making process that currently has dilemmas like this:

“TRAITLINE isn’t a very helpful line for this build. I’m getting +X00 in ATTRIBUTE when I could be getting +X00 OTHER ATTRIBUTE in OTHER TRAITLINE instead and be more focused and effective. But if I don’t go down TRAITLINE, I don’t have access to BUILD-DEFINING TRAIT.”

(e.g. Is it worth it to miss out on extra additional Power/Condition Duration in Explosives or Precision/Condition Damage in Firearms for Elixir-Infused Bombs in the Inventions or Experimental Turrets in Alchemy?)

Will instead replace its dilemma to this:

“TRAITLINE has BUILD-DEFINING TRAIT in Adept level that’s useful to this build, but the Master and Grandmaster traits don’t help me. I could go down OTHER TRAITLINE instead and have three okay traits that have wider range of use rather than have one really good trait and two traits that don’t synergize. But if I don’t go down TRAITLINE, I don’t have access to these BUILD-DEFINING TRAIT.”

In the current dilemma, the meaningful decisions tends to sway away from the traits themselves and more towards the lack of synergy that is wrapped in between the lines. The trait builds that work the best are often the ones where there is little or no baggage to speak of.

binidj.5734:

Have you looked at the relocation/merger of the traits and seen what build would play in that spirit? If you were focused on clone replacement death traits then it might be one of those bad for the player good for the game changes.

Yes I have, the build is simply not supported by the new system.

The idea is that clones are indistinguishable from the mesmer (so auras are to be avoided except when the guano hits the rotating blades) and actually put out a fair bit of damage (not nearly as much as a more bursty build but trickster is a long-term strategy) while active, so it’s in the interests of the mesmer to keep them alive and casting until summoning skills (aside from dodge which is generally used for dodging unless it’s a faceroll fight in which case builds are pretty much irrelevant) refresh sufficient to bring a full set of 3 straight back; Shatter is not something that gets used very often (except in faceroll fights). So ideally all clones should be active, so the idea is that if one is destroyed then they apply a few conditions as a sort of consolation prize. The clone-bomb can also give a bit of breathing space to summon a replacement.

Trickster is probably not “meta” but I enjoy it as a build, it works well enough, and it feels very mesmer-y … even though it doesn’t utilise shatters.

The new traits don’t support any retaliation on clones, includes shatter skills everywhere and also has traits that either apply an aura or require an aura to be active in order to function … thus utterly breaking any chance of hide-and-seek.[/quote]

So you want to play without using your class mechanic unless you have no other choice? This seem like more of play style choice that build doesn’t really effect. So accessing 3 grandmasters in three line can’t even get you in the ballpark of what you were doing?
The removal of retaliation (don’t phantasms still have it, but that is not the point) from mesmer and thus clones was a design decision they made as it (from the live stream) didn’t feel mesmer-y as you put it.

I have some empathy for your situtation that aspects of play you preferred were moved away from, but the more I re-read what the issue is it isn’t the locking of only 3 trait lines, but the design shift on the profession you are playing.

OP
The new system is about meaningful choices. Since you don’t want to choose the whole trait line, you’re choosing to not get that trait, and because of that you think that trait line simply shouldn’t exist because you don’t want to devote the points to get it? So your attitude is “if I can’t have it no one can!”…

Honestly its freed my builds up quite a bit. I can actually take certain lines rather than being forced into one because of a weapon trait at the back of the line. Looking forward to the changes.

That is called ‘responsibility’ If you want a particular play style, you actually need to commit to it.

I think I can understand quite well the rationale behind the changes and I really agree with them. Ultimately, free build systems sound very enticing – in theory, but we all know how many issues they fundamentally bring to the table. By keeping conflicting interesting choices within the same specialisation, as well as forcing commitment, GW2 has a potential to become a better, more balanced game with (paradoxically) more viable builds.

Of course, another issue is about how meaningful the traits are in the first place. There is a class of traits I would call ‘quality of life traits’: these are abilities that serve a particular convenient purpose, that not necessarily has much to do with the game itself. Here are things like perma-switfness, fall damage traits etc, that is, traits that are very practical outside of combat. These traits are an issue IMO because they make some classes more convenient than others for a wide range of players. I would prefer if these traits were removed altogether or changed into a new independent category (such as a passive utility ability/equip). Speed increase abilities should be either in-combat only or serve as openers.

FrozenChinchilla.5249:

For most of the classes you’re forced into specific trait lines just because you hold a type of weapon.

This. So much of this. You want to be greatsword you have to get the greatsword trait and anything else that comes with it. Most of the time the traits seem well enough balanced that it’s -okay- but it still feels restricting. I should be able to play a power/condition build with a mace/shield guardian if I kitten well want to.

JNetRocks.3652:

FrozenChinchilla.5249:

For most of the classes you’re forced into specific trait lines just because you hold a type of weapon.

This. So much of this. You want to be greatsword you have to get the greatsword trait and anything else that comes with it. Most of the time the traits seem well enough balanced that it’s -okay- but it still feels restricting. I should be able to play a power/condition build with a mace/shield guardian if I kitten well want to.

what are you on about? you can easily do that with the new system. Why do you have to go down the GS line simply because you want to use a GS? You don’t have to. I mean my necro carries an axe right now, but I don’t have any axe specific traits. With the new system I suspect I will also not use any axe specific traits unless it happens to fall in the line I want and is the best choice for my build.

As for the OP. I assume you’re running 6/6/2 and then 0 on the other two lines, with the 2 specifically to get the fall damage trait. How exactly will this change your build? you now simply have 6/6/6 and you can still use your fall damage trait, but you get 2 extra minor and 2 extra major traits along with it.

I can understand some of the valid concerns some other people have raised, but the majority of these complaints are ridiculous.

Zoid.2568:

No one really speccs into more than 2-3 traitlines in the current trait system. Some builds are spread out but that is mostly because of the stats. With stats removed from traits it’s no longer needed.

So the Staff-Elementalist Build is meta because no one really uses it? Good to know. ;-)

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Elementalist_-_Staff

And no, it is not spread because of the stats. It is spread because of the traits.

Nevertheless I think the changes aren’t that bad. We get 3 GM –Traits and the system is getting easier to balance for anet.

JNetRocks.3652:

FrozenChinchilla.5249:

For most of the classes you’re forced into specific trait lines just because you hold a type of weapon.

This. So much of this. You want to be greatsword you have to get the greatsword trait and anything else that comes with it. Most of the time the traits seem well enough balanced that it’s -okay- but it still feels restricting. I should be able to play a power/condition build with a mace/shield guardian if I kitten well want to.

And that’s where the system comes in: if a weapon is build with X playstyle in mind you would commit to an entire specialization build for that X playstyle. That’s why many builds were not viable or were blurried. Pick a style, commit it. With trait rebalances/merges many playstyle forgotten before could emerge. This is why we are saying this system has the potential to bring more diversity even if we have fewer options. And I mean VIABLE diverse builds. Because that’s the only thing that matters.

Some of the merges of useless traits are really good. Limiting our creativity is bad. What if I don’t want a Grandmaster in that slot? What if I don’t want a Master trait in that slot?

More options are always better. ArenaNet always does this. They do something really cool on one hand and then dumb it down with the other.

If you can’t see the problem smart and skillful players are having with this, you are the reason why they are “streamlining” traits.

We tell them over and over how bad the trait changes were. Instead of rewarding skillful play, they water it down in a different way.

The bad of this new system definitely outweighs the good of it. *Just wait until the Elite Specializations are revealed. There will most definitely be disparity in strength of builds. You will literally have 2-3 builds that will work for each profession with elite specs always having a place in the meta.

honestly when in combat would you use fall dmg reduction traits, in my opinion it is a wasted trait already unless you are a thief trying to hide in a thief none of the fall dmg traits is actually helpfull /use full, instead try not to fall of cliffs and pay attention and you will never feel the need to use them again.

My current build uses four trait lines..

To fix this in this new expansion Anet completely killed and removed the Mesmer mechanic that I used from the game calling it UNHEALTHY. Also even though I don’t use Glamours that much any Mesmer who had a build around them which Glamours like Feedback and Portal are all people want Mesmers for anyway are also pushed up a creak without a paddle because that build is now killed as well.

JNetRocks.3652:

FrozenChinchilla.5249:

For most of the classes you’re forced into specific trait lines just because you hold a type of weapon.

This. So much of this. You want to be greatsword you have to get the greatsword trait and anything else that comes with it. Most of the time the traits seem well enough balanced that it’s -okay- but it still feels restricting. I should be able to play a power/condition build with a mace/shield guardian if I kitten well want to.

What you’re talking about sounds less like a trait issue, and more to do with the way weapons are designed. Guardian mace is a defensive weapon, that’s the way it’s 1-3 skill operate whether we have the current system or the new one no trait can really change that.

McWolfy.5924:

Changing, shaking things up always a good thing. If everything are the same i get bored

Not if you kill build diversity in favour for more meta control. Anet wants everyone to use predefined builds which they have direct control over since they will have locked us all into a 3 trait line choice.

You won’t be able to take points from wherever to spend into a trait line you haven’t invested into.

I find it ironic how anet continues to prove the fact that they do not understand what they created.