Guild Wars 2

I see two lore problems with the new profession, and both come from unneeded “cool factor”. These are:

• Rytlock the first Revenant
• Summoning spirits of specific heroes

The first gives a continuity problem. Will Revenants join in the same Personal Story as every other profession? If so, how does it make sense to see Revenants fighting Zhaitan?

Second, how does it make any sense for a charr to summon a human hero? Or a human to summon a charr hero? It makes zero sense.

In my opinion, Rytlock shouldn’t be the first. Call the profession very rare, and make Rytlock a “High Revenant” instead. There, you have uniqueness and kittenery for him, without screwing up continuity. He’s a special revenant because he’s stronger.

Then maybe the summoned spirits should be generic, and themed around other things. Like “earthen strenght” instead of Jalis Ironhammer. I think this was done for cool factor, but it’s no good for the lore and each race’s culture. It’s just feels like anime superpower abuse. The ritualist had generic spirits and they were awesome, no need to pull off GW1 heroes to make the revenant kitten.

Just my opinion.

Considering how they didn’t seem to care at all about how the personal story got messed up by the China player experience patch that Anet forced on NA/EU players in September I doubt they will care and no one will even notice your a revenant as you go through the same personal story.

The first one can rather easily be explained by the Mists.

Rytlock might simply have returned from the Mists with his new powers before he went into the Mists.

As for the second I really see no issues with Charr being able to “summon” human heroes and so on.

Are you sure he’s the first?

It’s always possible that there are others out there right now, just not drawing attention to themselves. Rytlock would then be the first well known one, but not the first.

As for how they’ll deal with the class taking down Zhaitan and the like? Imagine if, for some strange reason, nobody ever rolled an engineer. The game goes a couple of years, and nobody makes one. Now, suddenly, someone rolls one and goes through the living story. As far as the story’s concerned, it’s nothing important. They can do the same here. There were always revenants, as far as the story is concerned.

You’re citing charr and humans summoning each other’s legendary spirits as an existing problem with the revenant, but the only two legends confirmed are a dwarf and a margonite, (and maybe a dragon).

The story I can see being a problem but using other races in the mist not so much.

I just assuming there is no “races” in the mist per say. I mean once you’re dead, you become part of the mist.

Even then how is a human using a Char hero from the mist is a problem? I’m pretty sure there is no bigotry among the races per say that is unless the Sepertist or Flame Legion can become Revenant but I guessing they will stick to race specificm mist heroes.

EDIT- Now I think about it, maybe they could do something similar like they did with Guild Wars when you take an expansion character into a early/ training mission before the main ones like I took my Assassin into Nightfall first mission (it was count as a flashback/ past vision). Granted that doesn’t solved it per say since I assume you still need to level up the Revenant character at the start than a already level 80 one.

I would like to see a Revenant specific starting zone, regardless of race. Maybe give them some kind of very small version of a personal story.

Chronologically it doesn’t make sense to put them into the existing story plots before Rytlock returns.

Whenever a Revenant enters a dungeon they could do like the original guild Wars did for players starting in certain campaigns and display something that says you are viewing events from the past.

Overthinking is strong in this thread…

I’m not concerned about the personal story. Yes, the revenant technically didn’t exist before the fall of Zhaitan, but your profession has no impact on your personal story. It’s barely even mentioned, if at all.

When I watched the Pax thing, I got the distinct impression that they meant Rytlock was going to be the first in game Revenant , not necessarily the first in the universe. And considering that it bears resemblance to the Ritualist in GW Factions, I doubt Anet would do that.

Well, races most definitely do exist in the Mists. We see human souls in the Underworld, for instance.

There is a precedent towards summoning specific spirits – the ritualist ash pots in GW1 were invoking specific spirits, although most of them we don’t have any lore on the spirits beyond their names. On the other hand, of course, those were all human PCs summoning human spirits, and nonhuman ritualist NPCs could have been summoning their own ancestors for similar benefits.

There is, however, truth in the observation that charr summoning humans and vice versa could be… problematic. As someone joked in another thread: Charr summons Gwen, instant downed. I think it is noteworthy, though, that none of the spirits that have been mentioned or observed thus far have been members of the playable races (well, Mallyx may have been human once…) – this could be how they’re getting around it. All the summons are either coming unwillingly regardless of race (Mallyx) or they’re someone who will willingly go to anyone who’s fighting the Elder Dragons (Jalis, Glint).

It is also interesting to note that this has basically confirmed that Jalis has died.

draxynnic.3719:

It is also interesting to note that this has basically confirmed that Jalis has died.

Did they actually specifically say that you are calling on the dead. I don’t think so, the wording was that they are channeling past legends which when mists are involved doesn’t necessarily have to imply an actual spirit but also something akin to an echo. See fractals lore for example.

I don’t really find it a problem for a revenant of one race to be channeling a great hero of another. In “real life” there are lots of historical/spiritual figures from cultures other than my own that I admire, and if I could tap into the source of what made them great…well, I certainly would.

I mean, I get what you’re saying, Lonami, and I’m not being dismissive of your point, but…I actually think it makes revenant characters seem more enlightened and spiritual, in that they recognize strength and greatness no matter where it originates.

(Obviously we’ll have to wait for more information to get a full explanation of how this is all to be implemented).

Crise.9401:

draxynnic.3719:

It is also interesting to note that this has basically confirmed that Jalis has died.

Did they actually specifically say that you are calling on the dead. I don’t think so, the wording was that they are channeling past legends which when mists are involved doesn’t necessarily have to imply an actual spirit but also something akin to an echo. See fractals lore for example.

Hrrrmn. Valid point.

This would also address some of the issues with, say, the ‘Charr channeling Gwen’ issue. Tapping into a fractal-esque reflection of Gwen might also cause the reflection to view the revenent as an ally even if the original soul wouldn’t (for instance, the first step in calling a human spirit might be to alter your own spiritual signature so that you look like a human yourself).

It would also solve the “how can multiple revenents invoke the same legend simultaneously” issue.

Rytlock is the first Revenant, as was blatantly stated by Colin Johanson at Pax South. It is what it is, like it or lump it.

Palador.2170:

Are you sure he’s the first?

It’s always possible that there are others out there right now, just not drawing attention to themselves. Rytlock would then be the first well known one, but not the first.

As for how they’ll deal with the class taking down Zhaitan and the like? Imagine if, for some strange reason, nobody ever rolled an engineer. The game goes a couple of years, and nobody makes one. Now, suddenly, someone rolls one and goes through the living story. As far as the story’s concerned, it’s nothing important. They can do the same here. There were always revenants, as far as the story is concerned.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/87848/guild-wars-2-director-discusses-heart-of-thorns-revenants-guild-halls-and-more

Johanson: Rytlock Brimstone is the first Revenant. He is the famous hero of the Charr and during the Living World’s second season, he disappeared into the mists, chasing after an incredibly powerful magical sword. Through his journeys in the mists, he has mastered the power of the mists and he is returning to teach everyone how to be a Revenant.

He is the first, this has outright been confirmed. Also when you talk about the Mists you have to understand that…the Mists is a rather…mystical place. It transcends dimensions. Remember, WvW is actually canon and we are canonically fighting against the inhabitants of the other versions of Tyria. I highly doubt that the powers it may allow to be bestowed upon any one individual takes into account any degree of racism. I don’t think “it” cares.

Think about Charr and their Guardians. One could’ve speculated at one point, early on, that the Guardian profession (Preservation magic) is somewhat about a type of faith seeing as how closely related it is to the Monk profession from GW1 when we know that to not be true now. However we still have to wait for more information on this just like a lot of the other things coming in this expansion.

Actually… the guardian is based on faith. It just doesn’t matter what the faith is placed in. Faith in your companions is just as powerful as faith in the Six Gods or the Eternal Alchemy.

Lonami.2987:

I see two lore problems with the new profession, and both come from unneeded “cool factor”. These are:

• Rytlock the first Revenant
• Summoning spirits of specific heroes

The first gives a continuity problem. Will Revenants join in the same Personal Story as every other profession? If so, how does it make sense to see Revenants fighting Zhaitan?

Second, how does it make any sense for a charr to summon a human hero? Or a human to summon a charr hero? It makes zero sense.

In my opinion, Rytlock shouldn’t be the first. Call the profession very rare, and make Rytlock a “High Revenant” instead. There, you have uniqueness and kittenery for him, without screwing up continuity. He’s a special revenant because he’s stronger.

Then maybe the summoned spirits should be generic, and themed around other things. Like “earthen strenght” instead of Jalis Ironhammer. I think this was done for cool factor, but it’s no good for the lore and each race’s culture. It’s just feels like anime superpower abuse. The ritualist had generic spirits and they were awesome, no need to pull off GW1 heroes to make the revenant kitten.

Just my opinion.

Likely similar to Necromancers, they support undead spirits of heroes of the past to do their will. That’s why a charr can control a human spirit of the past.

lordkrall.7241:

Rytlock might simply have returned from the Mists with his new powers before he went into the Mists.

But if he returned from the mists before he went into the mists, he would pretty much copy himself indefinitely which could be problem for Tyria. Milions of Rytlocks everywhere.

However if there could be only one Rytlock in same time, the returning Rytlock would replace the original Rytloc but the “new Rytlock” would already be a Revenant and already have that funky sword which would mean he wouldnt have reason to go into the mists. But by not going into the mists he would never learn his new craft and never get that funky sword so he would have to go into the mists again in order to get them and this cycle would repeat forever.

draxynnic.3719:

Actually… the guardian is based on faith. It just doesn’t matter what the faith is placed in. Faith in your companions is just as powerful as faith in the Six Gods or the Eternal Alchemy.

I didn’t say faith didn’t have anything to do with it, I’m saying that it isn’t entirely based upon faith.

Guardians use Preservation magic which entails protecting one’s allies or preserving one’s own life through healing, defensive magics or even the smiting of one’s foes and the dominating of the battlefield to preserve your life and the lives of others.

It’s broad enough that one could use faith as a means of justifying preserving life or serving a deity, like one of the Six Gods, but it’s not simply about faith as a philosophy.

“They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity’s defensive nature and the charr’s desire to rule the battlefield.”

Brahmincorle.1264:

But if he returned from the mists before he went into the mists, he would pretty much copy himself indefinitely which could be problem for Tyria. Milions of Rytlocks everywhere.

However if there could be only one Rytlock in same time, the returning Rytlock would replace the original Rytloc but the “new Rytlock” would already be a Revenant and already have that funky sword which would mean he wouldnt have reason to go into the mists. But by not going into the mists he would never learn his new craft and never get that funky sword so he would have to go into the mists again in order to get them and this cycle would repeat forever.

Time paradoxes are fun, depending on the fiction you look to for reference returning before entering the mists could work, provided the old and the new timelines don’t interact (ie. the new Rytlock became a monk to live on a mountain in seclusion while waiting his past self to leave the timeline f.ex.). In this example the suposed indefinite cycle of Rytlocks would never interfere with the Rytlock whose past we know and there would only ever be one Rytlock in the timeline that affects the course of its events.

Here is an interesting idea, what if E is Rytlock who returned from the mists in the past? He would have details that he could use to steer people together to make the present that the PC is in, just as long as his past self does not become aware of this. Of course once Rytlock takes his past selfs place as the first cycle of the paradox comes to a close the timeline is again restored.

KryTiKaL.3125:

draxynnic.3719:

Actually… the guardian is based on faith. It just doesn’t matter what the faith is placed in. Faith in your companions is just as powerful as faith in the Six Gods or the Eternal Alchemy.

I didn’t say faith didn’t have anything to do with it, I’m saying that it isn’t entirely based upon faith.

Guardians use Preservation magic which entails protecting one’s allies or preserving one’s own life through healing, defensive magics or even the smiting of one’s foes and the dominating of the battlefield to preserve your life and the lives of others.

It’s broad enough that one could use faith as a means of justifying preserving life or serving a deity, like one of the Six Gods, but it’s not simply about faith as a philosophy.

“They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity’s defensive nature and the charr’s desire to rule the battlefield.”

This was explained further in other interviews at the time – some of which, unfortunately, have either been taken down or are really hard to find with search engines. Basically, though, even charr guardians are powered by faith. However, charr guardians are generally powered by their faith in their comrades or the Legions, rather than some supernatural entity or abstract philosophy.

Faith in your friends or faith in your nation is still faith, and that’s enough to power Preservation magic.

Faith as a word (mind you with synonyms), sure, but remember it can both be a term and a philosophy.

I just want to make it clear that it’s not just faith as a philosophy. Faith, as a word, can also be replaced with loyalty, or hope, confidence, conviction, and belief. As well as others that just aren’t popping into my head right now.

KryTiKaL.3125:

http://www.shacknews.com/article/87848/guild-wars-2-director-discusses-heart-of-thorns-revenants-guild-halls-and-more

Johanson: Rytlock Brimstone is the first Revenant. He is the famous hero of the Charr and during the Living World’s second season, he disappeared into the mists, chasing after an incredibly powerful magical sword. Through his journeys in the mists, he has mastered the power of the mists and he is returning to teach everyone how to be a Revenant.

I hadn’t seen that quote yet, thanks.

And I stand corrected on that point.

Crise.9401:

Brahmincorle.1264:

But if he returned from the mists before he went into the mists, he would pretty much copy himself indefinitely which could be problem for Tyria. Milions of Rytlocks everywhere.

However if there could be only one Rytlock in same time, the returning Rytlock would replace the original Rytloc but the “new Rytlock” would already be a Revenant and already have that funky sword which would mean he wouldnt have reason to go into the mists. But by not going into the mists he would never learn his new craft and never get that funky sword so he would have to go into the mists again in order to get them and this cycle would repeat forever.

Time paradoxes are fun, depending on the fiction you look to for reference returning before entering the mists could work, provided the old and the new timelines don’t interact (ie. the new Rytlock became a monk to live on a mountain in seclusion while waiting his past self to leave the timeline f.ex.). In this example the suposed indefinite cycle of Rytlocks would never interfere with the Rytlock whose past we know and there would only ever be one Rytlock in the timeline that affects the course of its events.

Here is an interesting idea, what if E is Rytlock who returned from the mists in the past? He would have details that he could use to steer people together to make the present that the PC is in, just as long as his past self does not become aware of this. Of course once Rytlock takes his past selfs place as the first cycle of the paradox comes to a close the timeline is again restored.

But what would happend to “E-Rytlock?” would he commit suicide? or live in seclusion until he die? And this still doesn’t solve the cloning Rytlock paradox. If there isn’t major hole in my logic, every Rytlock that leave into the mists will return and find Rytlock that is alredy about to leave and XY Rytlocks that already returned.

Example:

At first there was only 1 Rytlock. He left into the mists and retuned before he went into the mists. Now we have 2 Rytlocks – one who returned and one who is about to leave. The “returned” Rytlock can’t stop the other Rytlock from leaving because it would cause another paradox when he never left which mean he cannot return and stop himself from leaving…. Ok so we have 2 Rytlocks, one once again leave and since we know he has to return before he leave now we have 3 Rytlocks… one that is about to leave, one who just now returned and the original Rytlock who returned as first. This will continue forever because Rytlock can’t stop leaving because as I said before if he stay in Tyria, he cannot return …. but he alredy did.

:)

This mean personal story as a Revenant would be logically flawed unles they drastically change it. They might keep it as it is but it would mean Rytlock wasn’t first revenant but “just another” revenant (or at best the second one because our character will be the first one).

Edit: my english is far from perfect, I hope it all make sense

the smart thing would be to design a revenant specific tutorial instance that takes place in the mists where Rytlock trains you and then you are warped back to the past.

or I suppose the Revenant would be a prestige class starting at lvl 80, not sure how I feel about that though.

Brahmincorle.1264:

But what would happend to “E-Rytlock?” would he commit suicide? or live in seclusion until he die? And this still doesn’t solve the cloning Rytlock paradox. If there isn’t major hole in my logic, every Rytlock that leave into the mists will return and find Rytlock that is alredy about to leave and XY Rytlocks that already returned.

Example:

At first there was only 1 Rytlock. He left into the mists and retuned before he went into the mists. Now we have 2 Rytlocks – one who returned and one who is about to leave. The “returned” Rytlock can’t stop the other Rytlock from leaving because it would cause another paradox when he never left which mean he cannot return and stop himself from leaving…. Ok so we have 2 Rytlocks, one once again leave and since we know he has to return before he leave now we have 3 Rytlocks… one that is about to leave, one who just now returned and the original Rytlock who returned as first. This will continue forever because Rytlock can’t stop leaving because as I said before if he stay in Tyria, he cannot return …. but he alredy did.

:)

This mean personal story as a Revenant would be logically flawed unles they drastically change it. They might keep it as it is but it would mean Rytlock wasn’t first revenant but “just another” revenant (or at best the second one because our character will be the first one).

Edit: my english is far from perfect, I hope it all make sense

I might have chosen my wording bit poorly, however, if “Revenant Rytlock” spends the time it takes for “Vanilla Rytlock” to go in to the mists in seclusion with minimal interaction with the timeline that will mean Vanilla will always enter the mists undisturbed. Here comes the key point, after Vanilla has entered the mists Revenant no longer has to worry about interacting with the timeline because he is now the only Rytlock in the active timeline. Then the new Revenant Rytlock will be the only Rytlock in the timeline past the point of his past self entering the mists while there will not be more than one Rytlock in seclusion in the past either because they will always have moved out of each others way without interference so to speak.

The theory of replicating Rytlocks relies the point in time were Rytlock emerges from the mists in the past (and when his past self enters the mists for that matter) to be constant, however, it is not as time flows continuously and when the paradox occurred the in the timeline there were indefinite number of splits each of which did at most one full circle as per my description in the previous paragraph. Perhaps in some of these split timelines Rytlock, if he indeed is E, interfered too much with the course of events and those timelines now either no longer exist because time has progressed past the beginning point of the paradox in the original timeline or now have an entirely new present different from the one we will see in HoT.

Which of the above outcomes you want to go with depends entirely on your preference but the concept of multiverse is established in GW2, see Asura personal story about “Infinity Ball” if memory serves, so perhaps paradoxes are how multiple versions and realities of Tyria have come to exist inside the mists in the past for example. Also, we don’t even know for sure the Rytlock that is coming back is originally from our incarnation of Tyria he was once the same person yes, but as he entered the mists he could have easily come out in any number of parallel version of Tyria (ie. he could be from a different timeline altogether, or have visited another version of Tyria where Revenants are commonplace for example).

As a closing note this theory relies on the fact that Rytlocks actions in the timeline after he re-emerges from the mists remain the same, ie. his state of mind would be the same after whatever he experienced in the mists, meaning the suicide scenario would not come into play and he would always take his old selfs place when the time came.

I’m pretty sure personal story is linked to race not profession. So… I’d say it should just give you an option to start at beginning or… I guess in Lion’s Arch near the Mist gates.

Kvothe.1467:

I’m pretty sure personal story is linked to race not profession. So… I’d say it should just give you an option to start at beginning or… I guess in Lion’s Arch near the Mist gates.

Usually yes, but lore wise if Rytlock is the first then technically they could create a separate instance for the profession in place of the race starter story.

For example, choosing Revenant as a class gives you a new choice, instead of choosing a pet etc like the ranger, you choose the method in which you “died” and went to the mists. This would lead to an intro scene of, for example, a battle in which you died or you falling into a portal similar to how Rytlock went to the mists.

After the cutscene it starts you in the mists without weapons (imagine the Sylvari starter area, it being in the Dream would be similar to this) whilst in the mists, you find Rytlock in all his Revenant glory and he agrees to teach you how to use the Revenants abilities and you complete the instance by leaving the mists.

This would drop you back in Tyria before Zhaitans defeat (explainable by mists physics and reasons) and the next personal story steps include dealing with issues with being a person with an unknown power in the “past” and that’d lead you into the order arc since they want you in their orders etc and it continues as normal.

Purely theoretical and wild, but it would fix the issues with lore and be a great incentive for people to try out the class.

psizone.8437:

Kvothe.1467:

I’m pretty sure personal story is linked to race not profession. So… I’d say it should just give you an option to start at beginning or… I guess in Lion’s Arch near the Mist gates.

Usually yes, but lore wise if Rytlock is the first then technically they could create a separate instance for the profession in place of the race starter story.

For example, choosing Revenant as a class gives you a new choice, instead of choosing a pet etc like the ranger, you choose the method in which you “died” and went to the mists. This would lead to an intro scene of, for example, a battle in which you died or you falling into a portal similar to how Rytlock went to the mists.

After the cutscene it starts you in the mists without weapons (imagine the Sylvari starter area, it being in the Dream would be similar to this) whilst in the mists, you find Rytlock in all his Revenant glory and he agrees to teach you how to use the Revenants abilities and you complete the instance by leaving the mists.

This would drop you back in Tyria before Zhaitans defeat (explainable by mists physics and reasons) and the next personal story steps include dealing with issues with being a person with an unknown power in the “past” and that’d lead you into the order arc since they want you in their orders etc and it continues as normal.

Purely theoretical and wild, but it would fix the issues with lore and be a great incentive for people to try out the class.

This, or any variant of it (ie. revenant instance + race intro even) would be super cool. Or even just a cutscene.

or just say Rytlock wasn’t first… no big deal imho.

Crise.9401:

This, or any variant of it (ie. revenant instance + race intro even) would be super cool. Or even just a cutscene.

A cutscene would be lame, lets have them go all the way and blow everyones minds, it’ll be fun

maybe, the player has to buy/acquire some kind of revenous artifact to allow you to transform into a revenant…

Each character gets one revenization charge free, when he visits the new maps.

hokeso.4028:

maybe, the player has to buy/acquire some kind of revenous artifact to allow you to transform into a revenant…

Each character gets one revenization charge free, when he visits the new maps.

While that would be a good solution, Colin said that Revenants would start at level one. Though to pick a hole in your idea if each character would get a charge for free what would the point of being able to buy/find one be.