Guild Wars 2

From the Challenging Content Blog

there are a number of Mastery traits attached to various facets of the raid encounters. For example, if your squad is working on the last boss of a wing, and no one has a particular and clearly stated Mastery unlocked, you’re probably going to fail spectacularly.

Then players without those masteries should not be allowed to enter. Full stop. Block them and keep them out until they have the required masteries.

Letting players do content you explicitly say they cannot succeed at will do nothing but frustrate the playerbase. Don’t trust your players to read the Masteries fine print.

Keep. Them. Out.
(so much for inclusive raiding)

One guy in a team of ten needs the requisite Mastery. Doesn’t mean the other nine do. Note the use of the word ‘probably’ in that snippet – if everyone in this forum is as inhumanly hardcore as they claim to be, then they’ll find a way to get by without the mastery.

People are supposed to fail and wipe on these things. That’s three quarters of the point of the groin-shatteringly ultrabrutal content people have been clamoring for, isn’kitten

DevilLordLaser.8619:

One guy in a team of ten needs the requisite Mastery. Doesn’t mean the other nine do. Note the use of the word ‘probably’ in that snippet – if everyone in this forum is as inhumanly hardcore as they claim to be, then they’ll find a way to get by without the mastery.

People are supposed to fail and wipe on these things. That’s three quarters of the point of the groin-shatteringly ultrabrutal content people have been clamoring for, isn’kitten

Yeah for now, then when most of those super hardcore players can’t complete it with in the first week you’ll have the forums full of people saying. “I know I’m good and if I can’t do it, it must be too hard pls nerf”

Samhayn.2385:

DevilLordLaser.8619:

One guy in a team of ten needs the requisite Mastery. Doesn’t mean the other nine do. Note the use of the word ‘probably’ in that snippet – if everyone in this forum is as inhumanly hardcore as they claim to be, then they’ll find a way to get by without the mastery.

People are supposed to fail and wipe on these things. That’s three quarters of the point of the groin-shatteringly ultrabrutal content people have been clamoring for, isn’kitten

Yeah for now, then when most of those super hardcore players can’t complete it with in the first week you’ll have the forums full of people saying. “I know I’m good and if I can’t do it, it must be too hard pls nerf”

Good. And i hope that this time Anet will listen and do nerf it (like they nerfed everything else so far). And that they won’t take too long to do it.

People say they want hardcore content but quickly choose the easiest way to complete said content. baffling!

If they wanted to make Raids really challenging ArenaNet could set the armor rating to “Blue Armor Stats” or “Green Armor Stats”. Make it a one size fits all raid gear set that automatically goes on your character. Put everyone on a level playing field. No gear check elitists. Block being able to look at AP. It boggles my mind that they would introduce something that is supposed to be hard(and should be! GW2 has needed this type of content forever)but then they don’t take the necessary steps to make raids all inclusive.

There’s PvP armor stats. There should be Raid armor stats as well. Use the PvP gear window and everything. It’s already baked into the game.

Hopefully they DON’T nerf it. It’s supposed to be challenging group content afterall. That’s the whole kitten point.

As for masteries, it depends. For instance the glider and mushroom ones are very, very easy to get and given that the raid is not going to be available upon release that should give people plenty of time to get those masteries. Not sure about other ones though.

I’ve been confused this whole time since Anet mentioned the word attunement cause I have no idea what that is apart from the elementalist thing. Is it something related to WoW or some other MMO?

Regardless and on topic, it’s fairly clear that whatever that will be required for certain aspects of a raid will become obvious with time. Anet isn’t expecting people to succeed the first time, they want people to figure it out. And people who can’t do something without a certain mastery…won’t be able to do it. People have figured out how Agony in fractals works, they’ll figure this out too.

Iason Evan.3806:

If they wanted to make Raids really challenging ArenaNet could set the armor rating to “Blue Armor Stats” or “Green Armor Stats”. Make it a one size fits all raid gear set that automatically goes on your character. Put everyone on a level playing field. No gear check elitists. Block being able to look at AP. It boggles my mind that they would introduce something that is supposed to be hard(and should be! GW2 has needed this type of content forever)but then they don’t take the necessary steps to make raids all inclusive.

There’s PvP armor stats. There should be Raid armor stats as well. Use the PvP gear window and everything. It’s already baked into the game.

At no point did they state they wanted raids to be all inclusive. They said they didn’t want raids to create a gear treadmill that made raiders superior to people that choose not to.

They actually want people to have to worry about alternate equipment setups, spend money, and do out-of-raid work because it adds value to both the other content and the raid simultaneously, and indirectly adds value to the legendaries without actually making the legendaries superior in a mechanical sense.

This is content intended as something you invest time and probably gold in to because that’s kind of the point. They want to give you something to do that isn’t farming for currency and mats you have no other use for. If you have other uses for those mats, then you obviously still have non-raid content that’s more important to you than raiding.

Raids are suppose to be hard and use most of the mecanics you can find in the game.
Using masteries to get through raids, I’m all in with that. As it has been said before, not all the members have to get all masteries and even if it is the case you’ll have some alternatives such as rez the deads or wp. Also at release only 1 path of 1 raid will be open (and Colin even said not exactly at the release to give time to players to get masteries!) so you won’t have to “sacrifice” your game experience for the raid.

I agree that there will be a lot of “pro players that want hard content” who will come and cry because they don’t manage to finish the raid so it must be too hard. And I really hope Anet won’t nerf raids and will laugh at them. I strongly believe that raid are doable by everyone as long as you take your time to discover and learn raids mecanics. Sure you’ll wipe again and again, and that’s fine. Hard content isn’t meant to be something you go in rolling your head on the keyboard and never die. I will probably fail several times, feel frustrated because of a boss I don’t manage to kill but I know that will be SO GOOD when I’ll finely kill him.

Don’t expect the first raid to be done the first week after HoT release guyz, it probably won’t. Anet want raids to be FoW/UW/DOA-like content and people from GW1 remember that the it took quite some time to finish those area (before SC team ofc).

I See No Tomorrow.7302:

I’ve been confused this whole time since Anet mentioned the word attunement cause I have no idea what that is apart from the elementalist thing. Is it something related to WoW or some other MMO?

Attunement is like a pre-qualifying quest chain that you must complete before you can enter a raid or dungeon. The exact nature depends on the game, but these can be a gold sink or time-consuming. They often function as a gear-check.

EverythingXen.1835:

.

Keep. Them. Out.
(so much for inclusive raiding)

Yeah.
I have to ask did any of the devs actually see that manifesto video?

This seams to go totally against what GW2 was supposed to be.

Misguided.5139:

Attunement is like a pre-qualifying quest chain that you must complete before you can enter a raid or dungeon. The exact nature depends on the game, but these can be a gold sink or time-consuming. They often function as a gear-check.

Good definition, and it gets at the heart of the issue. True Attunements are annoying but essentially fair, because you know about them in advance and can’t even start the raid without them. ANet’s Mastery gates will let you start running to kick the football, then pull it away right before you connect.

tobascodagama.2961:

Good definition, and it gets at the heart of the issue. True Attunements are annoying but essentially fair, because you know about them in advance and can’t even start the raid without them. ANet’s Mastery gates will let you start running to kick the football, then pull it away right before you connect.

Here’s a question.

If someone you knew demanded, for three solid years, with increasingly unpleasant language and levels of hysteria, that you punch them in the face – like, as hard as you can, let ’em have it - would you continue to tell that person that they really wouldn’t enjoy getting punched in the face? Or would you, at some point, just give up and punch them in the face so they stop freaking asking?

Because that’s what’s going on here. The Hardcores have been demanding that ArenaNet provide extremely, brutally, utterly unforgiving content that Not Just Any Random Scrub Could Do – effectively, asking ArenaNet to punch them in the face.

The people driving this particular content type are not looking for fair. They don’t want fair, they don’t want reasonable, they don’t want any of it. They want to get bent over the game’s knee and spanked. They want to get broken and forced out of the raid in disgrace, at least the first few times. They want to get punched in the face.

They want, in short, for ArenaNet to beat them. The first time, the second time, maybe even the third time. So that when they beat ArenaNet a few more tries in, they can hold that accomplishment up and go “RIGHT BACK AT’CHA, GUYS!” Which is a fair thing to want, to be sure – but it’s specifically anti-rookie coddling.

If you want to wander in the instance with no Masteries and give it a shot just for kicks, it is Working As Intended for the instance to grind up your face and spit out your bones.

That’s why we can’t have nice thing. Am I the only one that find that super awesome to use gliding in a raid?

DevilLordLaser.8619:

If someone you knew demanded, for three solid years, with increasingly unpleasant language and levels of hysteria, that you punch them in the face – like, as hard as you can, let ’em have it - would you continue to tell that person that they really wouldn’t enjoy getting punched in the face? Or would you, at some point, just give up and punch them in the face so they stop freaking asking?

The former, because I’m not a kittening sociopath.

tobascodagama.2961:

The former, because I’m not a kittening sociopath.

Some people can only learn the hard way. I’ll be honest with you – it would not have taken three years for me to deck this theoretical facepunch junkie..

myself.2143:

People say they want hardcore content but quickly choose the easiest way to complete said content. baffling!

True. But in properly designed hard content, even the easiest way is hard.

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Some people can only learn the hard way. I’ll be honest with you – it would not have taken three years for me to deck this theoretical facepunch junkie..

Yeah, but listen, your analogy is terrible. It’s more like you have this one friend who keeps asking you to punch him in the face and then give him cookies. So you bake a batch of cookies and offer it to a whole group of your friends at a party, on the condition that they have to let you punch them in the face first.

“Punch your buddy in the face” isn’t the only party game you could be playing in this situation, and only one guy you invited is actually enjoying it.

tobascodagama.2961:

Good definition, and it gets at the heart of the issue. True Attunements are annoying but essentially fair, because you know about them in advance and can’t even start the raid without them. ANet’s Mastery gates will let you start running to kick the football, then pull it away right before you connect.

It’s a good question, but we don’t know for sure that this is really going to be a problem. For instance, maybe they put the raid at a location that you have to have gliding in order to reach. Yeah, there are ways around that, like TP to friend, but there would essentially be a “soft” attunement in that case.

If they did let you start a raid without the tools you need to have a chance at completing it, I would agree that the design is flawed (or at the least unfortunate). I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt on it for the moment.

tobascodagama.2961:

DevilLordLaser.8619:

Some people can only learn the hard way. I’ll be honest with you – it would not have taken three years for me to deck this theoretical facepunch junkie..

Yeah, but listen, your analogy is terrible. It’s more like you have this one friend who keeps asking you to punch him in the face and then give him cookies. So you bake a batch of cookies and offer it to a whole group of your friends at a party, on the condition that they have to let you punch them in the face first.

“Punch your buddy in the face” isn’t the only party game you could be playing in this situation, and only one guy you invited is actually enjoying it.

Well, that’s assuming those are the only cookies at the party. if you want chocolate chip, play face punch. If you want frosted sugar cookies, play canasta. Nobody’s going to give you the sugar cookies for face punch, and nobody’s going to give you the chocolate ship for canasta.

I love this metaphor, and I hope this thread expands on it even more as it makes for a much more entertaining thread!

Samhayn.2385:

Yeah for now, then when most of those super hardcore players can’t complete it with in the first week you’ll have the forums full of people saying. “I know I’m good and if I can’t do it, it must be too hard pls nerf”

Pretty much this haha.

PopeUrban.2578:

Well, that’s assuming those are the only cookies at the party. if you want chocolate chip, play face punch. If you want frosted sugar cookies, play canasta. Nobody’s going to give you the sugar cookies for face punch, and nobody’s going to give you the chocolate ship for canasta.

I love this metaphor, and I hope this thread expands on it even more as it makes for a much more entertaining thread!

Indeed!

Let’s say that exotics are like oatmeal raisin, because they’re perfectly serviceable cookies but most people would prefer something else. Ascended is chocolate chip, clearly better than oatmeal raisin in every way. Legendary are white chocolate macadamia, a special treat that you don’t see very often.

Anyone who comes in the door can play a few rounds of Tic Tac Toe for oatmeal cookies. If you want chocolate chip, you’re gonna have to sit through an entire game of Monopoly. For the white chocolate macadamia, you have to get in line to get punched in the face.

Cameirus.8407:

EverythingXen.1835:

.

Keep. Them. Out.
(so much for inclusive raiding)

Yeah.
I have to ask did any of the devs actually see that manifesto video?

This seams to go totally against what GW2 was supposed to be.

Anet hasn’t stuck to the manifesto since beta anyways.

tobascodagama.2961:

PopeUrban.2578:

Well, that’s assuming those are the only cookies at the party. if you want chocolate chip, play face punch. If you want frosted sugar cookies, play canasta. Nobody’s going to give you the sugar cookies for face punch, and nobody’s going to give you the chocolate ship for canasta.

I love this metaphor, and I hope this thread expands on it even more as it makes for a much more entertaining thread!

Indeed!

Let’s say that exotics are like oatmeal raisin, because they’re perfectly serviceable cookies but most people would prefer something else. Ascended is chocolate chip, clearly better than oatmeal raisin in every way. Legendary are white chocolate macadamia, a special treat that you don’t see very often.

Anyone who comes in the door can play a few rounds of Tic Tac Toe for oatmeal cookies. If you want chocolate chip, you’re gonna have to sit through an entire game of Monopoly. For the white chocolate macadamia, you have to get in line to get punched in the face.

I love how this has ballooned into a huge party where Face Punch is a party game and all content is rewarded with various types of cookies.

ArenaNet, this should be your explanatory model moving forward.

ANYWAYS.

My original point stands – some people really, truly do just want to get punched in the face. Whether they enjoy the face punching is irrelevant – they’ve been demanding it for years, they’re not going to stop until they get it. Gating the face punching behind Masteries is mostly an easy way for ArenaNet to toughen up their knuckles some prior to the face punching, and requires less work on their part.

Now, if it turns out that Face Punch isn’t nearly as entertaining a party game as some partygoers figure it would be, then ArenaNet can scale it back. Sure, they’ll always offer white chocolate macadamia for playing Face Punch, and they’ll never offer it for playing canasta. That said, they could certainly introduce a new party game later that offers a different brand of white chocolate macadamia cookies, or retrofit an existing party game to offer a different brand of WCM. The critical point is that the white chocolate macadamia is in the game now – for a while it’s going to be exclusive to Face Punch, that particular brand will always be exclusive to Face Punch, and if Face Punch turns out to be a really popular party game, it may remain that you can only ever get WCM, of any brand, from Face Punch.

But it doesn’t have to. That’s up to THE FUTURE. Which we’ll all have to just wait and see what holds while we play canasta and the occasional round of Face Punch.

Thanks for the definition of attunement, whoever gave it!

on-topic though: I agree that anybody should be able to try it and should be able to fail it, even if the failure is that they somehow didn’t train their updraft mastery for glider by the time they start raids. It teaches them what they need to do to continue while not barring the entirety of the content from them. Then, when they’ve later trained updraft mastery, they can come back and have a feeling of satisfaction that they’ve managed to get past that part of the raid.

This thread has convinced me that all disagreements should be hashed out using cookie-based analogies.

Arah request lvl80 people. Full stop. Block them and keep them out until they level to 80.