Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
Masteries: Gating content.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
My take on how Combat Masteries should work.
The way I would like to see these Masteries added is, for example, the mordrem wolf is deadly when it flanks, we should get a Mastery that lowers the dmg on the flank and another one that increases the dmg you do to mordrem in general. Another example is, when fighting a Mordrem dragon he flies over you and tries to pick you up, if it gets you, you are dropped from a certain height taking fall dmg. gain a Mastery that either reduces the fall dmg or makes it so the dragon cant pick you up as high, which tunrs out to less fall dmg.
i really DON’T like this idea because all it does is trivialize player skill. wasn’t it you that just a few posts above was saying about how combat should be about player skill, not having the right masteries? how isn’t “now i don’t have to worry about being flanked by mordrem wolves” the exact opposite of that?
rather than something uninteresting like “now i do more damage against X enemy”, i prefer combat masteries to be “enablers”. yeah, hard gates. can’t do this thing until i have that thing. better than “can do this thing, but once i have that thing, it’ll be way easier”.
That doesnt change the fact that combat should be based on skill. All it means is that if you get that Mastery you dont have to be as careful around mordrem wolves. Either way these were just examples. I’m not a game designer so I’m not going to have the best ideas lol.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
Nah, but you are missing my point. Leveling is one thing. Gating is quite another. Two level 80’s all in equal gear go to fight a boss. One can fight him because he has earned masteries is the same as two max level characters in WoW going into a raid and only one of them can do the raid because they have the proper gear. That’s gating content.
At that point, it isn’t based on skill, but what they have gated behind masteries. Understand my point now?
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
except you couldn’t feasibly do any dungeons until you had strong enough gear.
and then you couldn’t do fractals past level 9 without agony resistance.
and then you couldn’t do the tower of nightmares without using the anti-toxin heal.
and so on and so forth.
and it doesn’t change the fact that leveling is gating. “oh it doesn’t count because reasons” isn’t an argument. you couldn’t do it before, you did a thing, you can do it now. it’s the exact same thing.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
except you couldn’t feasibly do any dungeons until you had strong enough gear.
and then you couldn’t do fractals past level 9 without agony resistance.
and then you couldn’t do the tower of nightmares without using the anti-toxin heal.
and so on and so forth.
and it doesn’t change the fact that leveling is gating. “oh it doesn’t count because reasons” isn’t an argument. you couldn’t do it before, you did a thing, you can do it now. it’s the exact same thing.
Bruno, if we are both on level 80s and we are in the exact same gear, and you can kill a boss because you have the mastery points to do so and I can’t because I haven’t yet earned those points that is exactly the same thing as gear gating and calling it a mastery system. It’s gated content. Period.
Nothing was gated before for max level characters. Even fractals. You could do the Fractal at level one and progress your way to high level fractals. Progression and gating are two totally different things.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
(edited by Iason Evan.3806)
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
Nah, but you are missing my point. Leveling is one thing. Gating is quite another. Two level 80’s all in equal gear go to fight a boss. One can fight him because he has earned masteries is the same as two max level characters in WoW going into a raid and only one of them can do the raid because they have the proper gear. That’s gating content.
At that point, it isn’t based on skill, but what they have gated behind masteries. Understand my point now?
no, i don’t, because it’s not different from “two characters go fight a boss: one is level appropriate, the other isn’t”. you people are creating problems in a situation you didn’t have issues with until now. you need to do things to be able to do other things. you need to level up to tackle lv80 content. you need to get agony resistance to do fractals. you need masteries to fight jungle bosses.
and you guys keep saying “it isn’t based on skill anymore”, like the mastery will just trivialize the fight for you, rather than let you fight it properly. it’s like saying agony infusions trivialize fractals. you have something that other players don’t, and that thing enables you to challenge new content. whether it’s level, infusions, or masteries, it doesn’t matter, they’re all just different names for the same thing: gating.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
Yet another system with wasted potential. Having general XP accumulation tied to unlocking masteries is setting the bar awfully low for this new progression system. Why not tie progression in a mastery to actual activities related to the mastery in question? 1
Want to learn how to hang glide? Find a teacher and then practice. The more you hang glide the more skills unlock in hang gliding. Speed up progression by playing special mini-games with your hang glider (glide through rings, collect new parts to build a better glider, etc.)
Want to learn a new language? Interact with the civilization in question by doing events for them, talking to their NPCs, etc.
Want to learn how to master the new enemies? Take on their minions. Speed up the process through scavenger hunts for learning about their anatomy or researching their weaknesses.
1 – Of course it’s more work, but it sounds like yet another rushed system that you’re adding to the game to fix a problem, rather than one that was well designed and crafted to be fun, while simultaneously fixing that problem.
(edited by SirMoogie.9263)
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
except you couldn’t feasibly do any dungeons until you had strong enough gear.
and then you couldn’t do fractals past level 9 without agony resistance.
and then you couldn’t do the tower of nightmares without using the anti-toxin heal.
and so on and so forth.
and it doesn’t change the fact that leveling is gating. “oh it doesn’t count because reasons” isn’t an argument. you couldn’t do it before, you did a thing, you can do it now. it’s the exact same thing.
Bruno, if we are both on level 80s and we are in the exact same gear, and you can kill a boss and I can’t that is exactly the same thing as gear gating and calling it a mastery system. It’s gated content. Period.
yeah, i know it’s gated content. so are levels (what do you think “level-gated” means?). so are infusions.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
except you couldn’t feasibly do any dungeons until you had strong enough gear.
and then you couldn’t do fractals past level 9 without agony resistance.
and then you couldn’t do the tower of nightmares without using the anti-toxin heal.
and so on and so forth.
and it doesn’t change the fact that leveling is gating. “oh it doesn’t count because reasons” isn’t an argument. you couldn’t do it before, you did a thing, you can do it now. it’s the exact same thing.
Who said that? I did exp dungeons with green and rare gear. I didnt have to grind anything. Fractals isnt forced on players. You were not forced to get the heal skill for the tower of nightmares. I did the whole thing without it.
If I want to progress in the jungles I am forced to get Masteries. I dont mind gating things like learning a new language learning a Mastery that lets you burn huge vines. I am against Masteries that will make a mob/boss impossible to fight without it.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
Nah, but you are missing my point. Leveling is one thing. Gating is quite another. Two level 80’s all in equal gear go to fight a boss. One can fight him because he has earned masteries is the same as two max level characters in WoW going into a raid and only one of them can do the raid because they have the proper gear. That’s gating content.
At that point, it isn’t based on skill, but what they have gated behind masteries. Understand my point now?
no, i don’t, because it’s not different from “two characters go fight a boss: one is level appropriate, the other isn’t”. you people are creating problems in a situation you didn’t have issues with until now. you need to do things to be able to do other things. you need to level up to tackle lv80 content. you need to get agony resistance to do fractals. you need masteries to fight jungle bosses.
and you guys keep saying “it isn’t based on skill anymore”, like the mastery will just trivialize the fight for you, rather than let you fight it properly. it’s like saying agony infusions trivialize fractals. you have something that other players don’t, and that thing enables you to challenge new content. whether it’s level, infusions, or masteries, it doesn’t matter, they’re all just different names for the same thing: gating.
Just because the game has certain gating for some content does not make is acceptable to put it on all.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
except you couldn’t feasibly do any dungeons until you had strong enough gear.
and then you couldn’t do fractals past level 9 without agony resistance.
and then you couldn’t do the tower of nightmares without using the anti-toxin heal.
and so on and so forth.
and it doesn’t change the fact that leveling is gating. “oh it doesn’t count because reasons” isn’t an argument. you couldn’t do it before, you did a thing, you can do it now. it’s the exact same thing.
Who said that? I did exp dungeons with green and rare gear. I didnt have to grind anything. Fractals isnt forced on players. You were not forced to get the heal skill for the tower of nightmares. I did the whole thing without it.
If I want to progress in the jungles I am forced to get Masteries. I dont mind gating things like learning a new language learning a Mastery that lets you burn huge vines. I am against Masteries that will make a mob/boss impossible to fight without it.
I want to do high lv fractals , but I am forced to grind for agony resist.
I want to do orr dungeon at lv 1 , but I am forced to lv up first.
etc …
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
except you couldn’t feasibly do any dungeons until you had strong enough gear.
and then you couldn’t do fractals past level 9 without agony resistance.
and then you couldn’t do the tower of nightmares without using the anti-toxin heal.
and so on and so forth.
and it doesn’t change the fact that leveling is gating. “oh it doesn’t count because reasons” isn’t an argument. you couldn’t do it before, you did a thing, you can do it now. it’s the exact same thing.
Who said that? I did exp dungeons with green and rare gear. I didnt have to grind anything. Fractals isnt forced on players. You were not forced to get the heal skill for the tower of nightmares. I did the whole thing without it.
If I want to progress in the jungles I am forced to get Masteries. I dont mind gating things like learning a new language learning a Mastery that lets you burn huge vines. I am against Masteries that will make a mob/boss impossible to fight without it.
I want to do high lv fractals , but I am forced to grind for agony resist.
I want to do orr dungeon at lv 1 , but I am forced to lv up first.
etc …
You are not forced to do fractals. Levelling is not end game, we are talking end game here so please stop comparing the two.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
except you couldn’t feasibly do any dungeons until you had strong enough gear.
and then you couldn’t do fractals past level 9 without agony resistance.
and then you couldn’t do the tower of nightmares without using the anti-toxin heal.
and so on and so forth.
and it doesn’t change the fact that leveling is gating. “oh it doesn’t count because reasons” isn’t an argument. you couldn’t do it before, you did a thing, you can do it now. it’s the exact same thing.
Who said that? I did exp dungeons with green and rare gear. I didnt have to grind anything. Fractals isnt forced on players. You were not forced to get the heal skill for the tower of nightmares. I did the whole thing without it.
If I want to progress in the jungles I am forced to get Masteries. I dont mind gating things like learning a new language learning a Mastery that lets you burn huge vines. I am against Masteries that will make a mob/boss impossible to fight without it.
I want to do high lv fractals , but I am forced to grind for agony resist.
I want to do orr dungeon at lv 1 , but I am forced to lv up first.
etc …You are not forced to do fractals. Levelling is not end game, we are talking end game here so please stop comparing the two.
You are not forced to explore the jungle
It’s only grindy if the I receive inappropriate reward for any given event. For instance, Claw of Jormag feels grindy only because the event is not easy and it was not very rewarding. But ever since they’ve added the one-exotic-guarantee reward, it feels satisfactory to do the event.
My point is, “grind” is a matter of perspective.
Buddy that isn’t what grind means, what you are describing is simply unrewarding content.
On the contrary, it was a grind because the wanted reward has a slim chance of being awarded. Thus you tend to repeat the same content to hopefully be lucky to get what you want.
Grind just means doing something repeatedly in other to get something you are required to get.
Like I said, it’s a matter of perspective, and based on yours, progression means grinding.
http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
except you couldn’t feasibly do any dungeons until you had strong enough gear.
and then you couldn’t do fractals past level 9 without agony resistance.
and then you couldn’t do the tower of nightmares without using the anti-toxin heal.
and so on and so forth.
and it doesn’t change the fact that leveling is gating. “oh it doesn’t count because reasons” isn’t an argument. you couldn’t do it before, you did a thing, you can do it now. it’s the exact same thing.
Who said that? I did exp dungeons with green and rare gear. I didnt have to grind anything. Fractals isnt forced on players. You were not forced to get the heal skill for the tower of nightmares. I did the whole thing without it.
If I want to progress in the jungles I am forced to get Masteries. I dont mind gating things like learning a new language learning a Mastery that lets you burn huge vines. I am against Masteries that will make a mob/boss impossible to fight without it.
I want to do high lv fractals , but I am forced to grind for agony resist.
I want to do orr dungeon at lv 1 , but I am forced to lv up first.
etc …You are not forced to do fractals. Levelling is not end game, we are talking end game here so please stop comparing the two.
You are not forced to explore the jungle
LMAO! Really? Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. GG
LMAO! Really? Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. GG
Well to be fair we don’t actually know exactly what will be locked behind masteries.
Based on what we have heard it all seems to be optional extra stuff as opposed to the “required” story parts.
And as such, his argument makes complete sense.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with gating. frankly, its the key way many games include progression within them. The apt comparisons o Metroid or Zelda was made in an Anet interview. You sometimes need an item or ability to go somewhere or do something in those games, and Anet is using this, rather than gating content by necessitating certain stats.
There seems to be the odd idea that this is somehow withholding content. Which I guess it is, but it massively misses the point. It’s withholding content so you can feel a sense of progression when you obtain it.
It’s no more grindy than beating a dungeon to get a new weapon in Zelda. At least you’ve have a little quest and adventure towards your goal, rather than literal gear grind of doing a raid over and over.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
Actually, that’s exactly what we’re talking about. New expansion should mean new leveling experience. Masteries is the new leveling experience. You call it end game, but how can it really be end game if you’re just starting it? It’s all new. I’m going to throw the card, you shouldn’t be entitled to the end just because you bought it. You need to work up to it, and that means leveling up your new levels to play the content at the higher levels.
Tarnished Coast Kal Spiro – Ranger (80), LB/S-D, Eagle/Wolf, Signet, M/S/WS #SABorRiot
|Daredevil|Ranger|Guardian|Scrapper|Necromancer|Berserker|Dragonhunter|Mesmer|Elementalist
|Deadeye|Warrior|Herald|Daredevil|Reaper|Spellbreaker
|Daredevil|Ranger|Guardian|Scrapper|Necromancer|Berserker|Dragonhunter|Mesmer|Elementalist
|Deadeye|Warrior|Herald|Daredevil|Reaper|Spellbreaker
LMAO! Really? Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. GG
Well to be fair we don’t actually know exactly what will be locked behind masteries.
Based on what we have heard it all seems to be optional extra stuff as opposed to the “required” story parts.And as such, his argument makes complete sense.
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
I fully expect masteries to gate content, and I do not have a problem with that. I do hope that progressing them is more exploration than grind though, I do not want to have to grind away at content for days or weeks just to unlock a mastery, I want to instead just accomplish something once to unlock it. But in principle it’s a fun Metroidvania element, that you can see the whole map before you, but only practically access a small portion of it, but then you unlock the rockets and can get through the locked doors, and then get the wave jump and can reach the higher platforms, and so on. That can be a lot of fun if done right.
But yeah, if it’s “get the rockets, and then kill 500 enemies before you can unlock the doors with them,” then that would be annoying more than fun.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
LMAO! Really? Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. GG
Well to be fair we don’t actually know exactly what will be locked behind masteries.
Based on what we have heard it all seems to be optional extra stuff as opposed to the “required” story parts.And as such, his argument makes complete sense.
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
Where does it say that season 3 of the LW needs you to get special masteries to proceed.
Maybe the special masteries are for hidden dungeons or world bosses.
I am pretty sure the new LW will be gate-free like the rest of the LW.
(edited by Altair.6109)
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
No. What he said was that you were not forced to EXPLORE the jungle.
Going into != Explore.
It is rather unlikely that the story parts will be locked behind Mastery advancements and as such his argument is very much valid.
What we have seen in interviews and such suggest that the gliding and such lets you visit SPECIAL places, not that you need it to visit every single place ever in the new maps.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
Actually, that’s exactly what we’re talking about. New expansion should mean new leveling experience. Masteries is the new leveling experience. You call it end game, but how can it really be end game if you’re just starting it? It’s all new. I’m going to throw the card, you shouldn’t be entitled to the end just because you bought it. You need to work up to it, and that means leveling up your new levels to play the content at the higher levels.
Levelling doesnt make a expansion. What makes a expansion is new meaningful re playable content. Like I said so many times already, certain things should be gated like learning a new language and the glider. When it comes to combat though, a fight shouldnt be impossible because you dont have the Mastery for it. The fight should be harder without it but not impossible.
LMAO! Really? Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. GG
Well to be fair we don’t actually know exactly what will be locked behind masteries.
Based on what we have heard it all seems to be optional extra stuff as opposed to the “required” story parts.And as such, his argument makes complete sense.
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
it’s the same thing, though. just because you refuse to admit and treat it as something different doesn’t change the fact that “if you don’t like this content, don’t do it” doesn’t mean the gating isn’t there.
you’re no more “forced” to play the jungle than you are “forced” to play fractals. it’s content, it’s there, don’t like it? go play the rest of the game.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
No. What he said was that you were not forced to EXPLORE the jungle.
Going into != Explore.It is rather unlikely that the story parts will be locked behind Mastery advancements and as such his argument is very much valid.
What we have seen in interviews and such suggest that the gliding and such lets you visit SPECIAL places, not that you need it to visit every single place ever in the new maps.
You are right he did say explore.
That would suck if it is.
Gating gliders and languages work perfectly but to do the same with mobs/bosses would be a mistake imo.
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
No. What he said was that you were not forced to EXPLORE the jungle.
Going into != Explore.It is rather unlikely that the story parts will be locked behind Mastery advancements and as such his argument is very much valid.
What we have seen in interviews and such suggest that the gliding and such lets you visit SPECIAL places, not that you need it to visit every single place ever in the new maps.
You are right he did say explore.
That would suck if it is.
Gating gliders and languages work perfectly but to do the same with mobs/bosses would be a mistake imo.
so they can gate all they want, so long as they don’t gate the things you want.
talk about double standards.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
It is rather unlikely that the story parts will be locked behind Mastery advancements and as such his argument is very much valid.
Is it unlikely? I would argue that the norm for MMOs is to gate story development behind gear checks and level gains. That this is a new system doesn’t suddenly mean Arena Net won’t use it to gate dynamic events, dungeons, personal story steps, etc. behind the mastery system. It’d be a missed opportunity for them not to do so. One of the problems for MMO developers is players digesting their preferred content of choice and leaving the game, thus no longer investing in the game. Something needs to prolong the gap between the old content and the content currently being developed, and that’s where gating systems come in. As others pointed out levels are a gating system, and Arena Net has used them to gate personal story content before… why would they stop now with a new system of gating content?
I have nothing against gating systems per say,1 just pointing out that I do not share your optimism confidence that this won’t be used to slow personal story consumption, dynamic event access, etc.
Edit: “Optimism” was too strong of a word as I do not mind personal story, zone completion, dynamic events, etc. being gated either. I’d just rather they be gated with a system that has some logical sense to it… like the weapon skill unlock system used to be. You used to unlock new weapon skills by “practicing” with the weapon in question. I see no reason why killing a beast in the wild should improve my skills with the Hylek language, for example . Wasted potential for sure.
1 – I just find this one as uninspiring as leveling. See my post up thread.
(edited by SirMoogie.9263)
LMAO! Really? Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. GG
Well to be fair we don’t actually know exactly what will be locked behind masteries.
Based on what we have heard it all seems to be optional extra stuff as opposed to the “required” story parts.And as such, his argument makes complete sense.
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
it’s the same thing, though. just because you refuse to admit and treat it as something different doesn’t change the fact that “if you don’t like this content, don’t do it” doesn’t mean the gating isn’t there.
you’re no more “forced” to play the jungle than you are “forced” to play fractals. it’s content, it’s there, don’t like it? go play the rest of the game.
Can you play in the jungle and experience it fully without being forced to grind Masteries? No. Can you do every fractal without grinding AR? Yes.
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
No. What he said was that you were not forced to EXPLORE the jungle.
Going into != Explore.It is rather unlikely that the story parts will be locked behind Mastery advancements and as such his argument is very much valid.
What we have seen in interviews and such suggest that the gliding and such lets you visit SPECIAL places, not that you need it to visit every single place ever in the new maps.
You are right he did say explore.
That would suck if it is.
Gating gliders and languages work perfectly but to do the same with mobs/bosses would be a mistake imo.
so they can gate all they want, so long as they don’t gate the things you want.
talk about double standards.
Its not what I want its that certain things make more sense gated.
It doesnt make sense for my player to be able to glide out of no where so I have to learn somehow. It also doesnt make sense to be able to speak a language out of no where without learning it.
What does make sense is someone who fought and destroyed a elder dragon, and fights dragons on a daily basis, can go into the jungle and fight mobs/bosses without having to gain Masteries.
I am not against gating. I would just rather the gating be about cosmetics. Gated glider skins that we earn through the mastery system versus the gem shop because the gliders are a system of the x-pac which we already paid for. Gating armor skins, weapons skins that we earn and for the very same reasons I just mentioned.
Gating certain enemies is not my cup of tea. I want my enemies to be based on my skill as a player, not based on my gear or in GW2’s case how many mastery points I have earned and which places I have placed them. Same goes for exploring.
did you complain at launch that you didn’t have a fully geared character with all skills unlocked because you already paid for arah and those utilities?
We are tlaking end game here not the levelling experience. When I hit lvl 80 I wasnt gated behind anything. I was able to do all exp dungeons and all content available in the game.
Actually, that’s exactly what we’re talking about. New expansion should mean new leveling experience. Masteries is the new leveling experience. You call it end game, but how can it really be end game if you’re just starting it? It’s all new. I’m going to throw the card, you shouldn’t be entitled to the end just because you bought it. You need to work up to it, and that means leveling up your new levels to play the content at the higher levels.
Levelling doesnt make a expansion. What makes a expansion is new meaningful re playable content. Like I said so many times already, certain things should be gated like learning a new language and the glider. When it comes to combat though, a fight shouldnt be impossible because you dont have the Mastery for it. The fight should be harder without it but not impossible.
They disagree, and so do I.
Tarnished Coast Kal Spiro – Ranger (80), LB/S-D, Eagle/Wolf, Signet, M/S/WS #SABorRiot
|Daredevil|Ranger|Guardian|Scrapper|Necromancer|Berserker|Dragonhunter|Mesmer|Elementalist
|Deadeye|Warrior|Herald|Daredevil|Reaper|Spellbreaker
|Daredevil|Ranger|Guardian|Scrapper|Necromancer|Berserker|Dragonhunter|Mesmer|Elementalist
|Deadeye|Warrior|Herald|Daredevil|Reaper|Spellbreaker
LMAO! Really? Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. GG
Well to be fair we don’t actually know exactly what will be locked behind masteries.
Based on what we have heard it all seems to be optional extra stuff as opposed to the “required” story parts.And as such, his argument makes complete sense.
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
it’s the same thing, though. just because you refuse to admit and treat it as something different doesn’t change the fact that “if you don’t like this content, don’t do it” doesn’t mean the gating isn’t there.
you’re no more “forced” to play the jungle than you are “forced” to play fractals. it’s content, it’s there, don’t like it? go play the rest of the game.
Can you play in the jungle and experience it fully without being forced to grind Masteries? No. Can you do every fractal without grinding AR? Yes.
By all accounts “GRINDING MASTERIES!” primarily relates to playing the content
As you play you accrue points, and you direct those points towards what you’re most interested in seeing.
It’s much less of a grind than level progression, because you always have the choice of what you want to focus on.
In orr, if you’re too low level for Orr, you can’t do it and you have to level up.
If you have 5 mastery points, you can choose whether to glide more or get better at killing that dinosaur.
The “Grind” is giving you control over your own progression, and there was going to have to be progression of some kind.
When it comes to combat though, a fight shouldnt be impossible because you dont have the Mastery for it. The fight should be harder without it but not impossible.
Why is this so different from learning hang gliding? Let’s imagine this as if this were a real world. You are exploring unconquered terrain, your civilization has never been here before and your knowledge of the local flora and fauna is thin. Suddenly, a giant crab like creature leaps from the waters and attacks. You pull on your existing skills and they prove useless against the crab’s defenses. You retreat and start pulling on your brain not your brawn to address this new threat. You seek out the Asura for their research capabilities and bring them armor scraps from lesser crab creatures in the new environment. You ask the water dwelling creatures of the world about the crabs to aid the researchers. After enough time you have a solution, it’s an acidic spray to strip the armor off the crabs. You fight them again, and drive them back.
We’ve already done something like this before in Lost Shores. I think it’d be neat if we actually had to learn about our foes to defeat them. Learn their weaknesses, develop new weapons/skills to defeat them, etc. I agree though, essentially leveling to kill the new enemies is hardly new or inspiring for an MMO.
i really DON’T like this idea because all it does is trivialize player skill. wasn’t it you that just a few posts above was saying about how combat should be about player skill, not having the right masteries? how isn’t “now i don’t have to worry about being flanked by mordrem wolves” the exact opposite of that?
rather than something uninteresting like “now i do more damage against X enemy”, i prefer combat masteries to be “enablers”. yeah, hard gates. can’t do this thing until i have that thing. better than “can do this thing, but once i have that thing, it’ll be way easier”.
I like soft gates. The systems to make it easier is there for those that want the easy road. Not there for those that don’t and want the easy road and want more of the challenge. They may make a achievement for you defeating X enemy without the masteries that you would be able to display proudly. After all I think that is what you are really looking for is exclusive content.
In Game: Storm Bluff Isle — Anzz, Anzenketh Kyoto
LMAO! Really? Now you are arguing for the sake of arguing. GG
Well to be fair we don’t actually know exactly what will be locked behind masteries.
Based on what we have heard it all seems to be optional extra stuff as opposed to the “required” story parts.And as such, his argument makes complete sense.
It makes sense but doesnt change the fact that its a bad argument. I said we are not forced to do fractals then he comes back at me by saying youre not forced to go in the jungle. If you think about it you are, if you want to progress in the gw2 story. We also know season 3 of the LW will take place in the jungle.
it’s the same thing, though. just because you refuse to admit and treat it as something different doesn’t change the fact that “if you don’t like this content, don’t do it” doesn’t mean the gating isn’t there.
you’re no more “forced” to play the jungle than you are “forced” to play fractals. it’s content, it’s there, don’t like it? go play the rest of the game.
Can you play in the jungle and experience it fully without being forced to grind Masteries? No. Can you do every fractal without grinding AR? Yes.
By all accounts “GRINDING MASTERIES!” primarily relates to playing the content
As you play you accrue points, and you direct those points towards what you’re most interested in seeing.
It’s much less of a grind than level progression, because you always have the choice of what you want to focus on.
In orr, if you’re too low level for Orr, you can’t do it and you have to level up.
If you have 5 mastery points, you can choose whether to glide more or get better at killing that dinosaur.
The “Grind” is giving you control over your own progression, and there was going to have to be progression of some kind.
Thats what I’m asking for. Masteries that make you more efficient at killing monsters, not making impossible monsters possible.
i really DON’T like this idea because all it does is trivialize player skill. wasn’t it you that just a few posts above was saying about how combat should be about player skill, not having the right masteries? how isn’t “now i don’t have to worry about being flanked by mordrem wolves” the exact opposite of that?
rather than something uninteresting like “now i do more damage against X enemy”, i prefer combat masteries to be “enablers”. yeah, hard gates. can’t do this thing until i have that thing. better than “can do this thing, but once i have that thing, it’ll be way easier”.
I like soft gates. The systems to make it easier is there for those that want the easy road. Not there for those that don’t and want the easy road and want more of the challenge. They may make a achievement for you defeating X enemy without the masteries that you would be able to display proudly. After all I think that is what you are really looking for is exclusive content.
both soft and hard gates have advantages and disadvantages. i personally prefer hard gating stuff because it gives more structure, and the designers can focus on the content itself, rather than tweaking things to keep the gated content from being trivialized.
the games cited as the inspiration for the mastery system (zelda and metroid) both rely heavily on hard-gating (sometimes literally) to conduct the player experience, without deterring the feeling of exploration. matter of fact, it strengthens that feeling. “oh, so that’s how i do that thing, using this”. and both games still had soft gates (health and ammo) that can be optionally improved.
personally, i think soft gating in GW2 has the risk of just making fights feel easier than they should after you have the right masteries, simply because said fights would have to be designed with players that don’t have masteries in mind. meanwhile, just saying “nope, can’t do that” until the players have the proper mastery allows the fight to be designed with a single “base model”. there won’t be a range of players, power-wise, to take into account.
as for the achievement, i doubt they’ll do something like that, because i don’t see them allowing you to “turn off” masteries.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
When it comes to combat though, a fight shouldnt be impossible because you dont have the Mastery for it. The fight should be harder without it but not impossible.
Why is this so different from learning hang gliding? Let’s imagine this as if this were a real world. You are exploring unconquered terrain, your civilization has never been here before and your knowledge of the local flora and fauna is thin. Suddenly, a giant crab like creature leaps from the waters and attacks. You pull on your existing skills and they prove useless against the crab’s defenses. You retreat and start pulling on your brain not your brawn to address this new threat. You seek out the Asura for their research capabilities and bring them armor scraps from lesser crab creatures in the new environment. You ask the water dwelling creatures of the world about the crabs to aid the researchers. After enough time you have a solution, it’s an acidic spray to strip the armor off the crabs. You fight them again, and drive them back.
We’ve already done something like this before in Lost Shores. I think it’d be neat if we actually had to learn about our foes to defeat them. Learn their weaknesses, develop new weapons/skills to defeat them, etc. I agree though, essentially leveling to kill the new enemies is hardly new or inspiring for an MMO.
You’re example is great. Instead of your attacks not working on the giant crab. Why not make the crabs attacks more frequent or more powerful when you dont do the Mastery line but not impossible like you’re suggesting. I would like to fight that crab without weakening and I’m sure many others would too.
i really DON’T like this idea because all it does is trivialize player skill. wasn’t it you that just a few posts above was saying about how combat should be about player skill, not having the right masteries? how isn’t “now i don’t have to worry about being flanked by mordrem wolves” the exact opposite of that?
rather than something uninteresting like “now i do more damage against X enemy”, i prefer combat masteries to be “enablers”. yeah, hard gates. can’t do this thing until i have that thing. better than “can do this thing, but once i have that thing, it’ll be way easier”.
I like soft gates. The systems to make it easier is there for those that want the easy road. Not there for those that don’t and want the easy road and want more of the challenge. They may make a achievement for you defeating X enemy without the masteries that you would be able to display proudly. After all I think that is what you are really looking for is exclusive content.
both soft and hard gates have advantages and disadvantages. i personally prefer hard gating stuff because it gives more structure, and the designers can focus on the content itself, rather than tweaking things to keep the gated content from being trivialized.
the games cited as the inspiration for the mastery system (zelda and metroid) both rely heavily on hard-gating (sometimes literally) to conduct the player experience, without deterring the feeling of exploration. matter of fact, it strengthens that feeling. “oh, so that’s how i do that thing, using this”. and both games still had soft gates (health and ammo) that can be optionally improved.
personally, i think soft gating in GW2 has the risk of just making fights feel easier than they should after you have the right masteries, simply because said fights would have to be designed with players that don’t have masteries in mind. meanwhile, just saying “nope, can’t do that” until the players have the proper mastery allows the fight to be designed with a single “base model”. there won’t be a range of players, power-wise, to take into account.
as for the achievement, i doubt they’ll do something like that, because i don’t see them allowing you to “turn off” masteries.
Examples of combat Masteries can be taking less dmg from a world boss. A example I gave earlier was a mordrem dragon flies over your head, it tired to pick you up and if it is successful then it lifts you off the ground some meters and you take a lot of fall dmg. A Mastery line can reduce the fall dmg you take or make you heavy to the mordrem so they cant pick you up for to long, resulting in less fall dmg.
Small things like this can make Masteries desirable to get yet not necessary. They can make it so you take more dmg in general from aoe attacks by bosses or do less dmg to bosses without Masteries. It doesnt have to be some crazy overhaul of the fights to make it fun/challenging for both non Masters and Masters. Sometimes a simple solution is enough.
i really DON’T like this idea because all it does is trivialize player skill. wasn’t it you that just a few posts above was saying about how combat should be about player skill, not having the right masteries? how isn’t “now i don’t have to worry about being flanked by mordrem wolves” the exact opposite of that?
rather than something uninteresting like “now i do more damage against X enemy”, i prefer combat masteries to be “enablers”. yeah, hard gates. can’t do this thing until i have that thing. better than “can do this thing, but once i have that thing, it’ll be way easier”.
I like soft gates. The systems to make it easier is there for those that want the easy road. Not there for those that don’t and want the easy road and want more of the challenge. They may make a achievement for you defeating X enemy without the masteries that you would be able to display proudly. After all I think that is what you are really looking for is exclusive content.
both soft and hard gates have advantages and disadvantages. i personally prefer hard gating stuff because it gives more structure, and the designers can focus on the content itself, rather than tweaking things to keep the gated content from being trivialized.
the games cited as the inspiration for the mastery system (zelda and metroid) both rely heavily on hard-gating (sometimes literally) to conduct the player experience, without deterring the feeling of exploration. matter of fact, it strengthens that feeling. “oh, so that’s how i do that thing, using this”. and both games still had soft gates (health and ammo) that can be optionally improved.
personally, i think soft gating in GW2 has the risk of just making fights feel easier than they should after you have the right masteries, simply because said fights would have to be designed with players that don’t have masteries in mind. meanwhile, just saying “nope, can’t do that” until the players have the proper mastery allows the fight to be designed with a single “base model”. there won’t be a range of players, power-wise, to take into account.
as for the achievement, i doubt they’ll do something like that, because i don’t see them allowing you to “turn off” masteries.
My point is that if there are a lot of hard gates I will be forced to progress a specific line to do content (I likely will anyways with a soft gate just because I am not at the top of my game.) With soft gates you can attempt it it may be possible but you will want to pull your hear out afterwords. This will allow someone to still do content. Possibly with help of those that have the line.
For example the difficulty of a mob designed to take advantage of the mastery system could be the equivalent of soloing two champions. It is possible but for the normal player they will take the mastery route so they actually can complete it taking the champion down to two veteran difficulty.
In Game: Storm Bluff Isle — Anzz, Anzenketh Kyoto
Until we actually see what they mean about not learning a mastery preventing you from taking on the challenge all of this is supposition.
Anet should have learned from EOTN how to managed a new skill system. For those who didn’t play EOTN, your characters were given title tracks that they could level up and gain new skills as well as a buff in a certain area. As your title level increased, your buff increased, things like bonus damage against certain enemy types in that zone and reduced damage taken, as well as the strength of the skills tied to that title level. Now, one may think “wow, tying the two together means my title skills and bonuses are totally OP!” which is only true when you are in the zone matching our title. Outside of that zone, your title skills were only as strong as the rest of your profession skills. And this leads to the last point. Those skills replaced other skills in your skill bar and were not used in addition to the skills on your bar. At no point, though, was any of the content not doable without those skills.
Now, with Mastery, I’m waiting to see how hard certain content is without it, and how easy it is with it. If it’s pretty challenging without it, and only somewhat less so with it, then Anet will have hit the nail on the head. If the Mastery trivialises the content then they’ve done it wrong. Until we see what they’ll do, we should reserve our judgement
i really DON’T like this idea because all it does is trivialize player skill. wasn’t it you that just a few posts above was saying about how combat should be about player skill, not having the right masteries? how isn’t “now i don’t have to worry about being flanked by mordrem wolves” the exact opposite of that?
rather than something uninteresting like “now i do more damage against X enemy”, i prefer combat masteries to be “enablers”. yeah, hard gates. can’t do this thing until i have that thing. better than “can do this thing, but once i have that thing, it’ll be way easier”.
I like soft gates. The systems to make it easier is there for those that want the easy road. Not there for those that don’t and want the easy road and want more of the challenge. They may make a achievement for you defeating X enemy without the masteries that you would be able to display proudly. After all I think that is what you are really looking for is exclusive content.
both soft and hard gates have advantages and disadvantages. i personally prefer hard gating stuff because it gives more structure, and the designers can focus on the content itself, rather than tweaking things to keep the gated content from being trivialized.
the games cited as the inspiration for the mastery system (zelda and metroid) both rely heavily on hard-gating (sometimes literally) to conduct the player experience, without deterring the feeling of exploration. matter of fact, it strengthens that feeling. “oh, so that’s how i do that thing, using this”. and both games still had soft gates (health and ammo) that can be optionally improved.
personally, i think soft gating in GW2 has the risk of just making fights feel easier than they should after you have the right masteries, simply because said fights would have to be designed with players that don’t have masteries in mind. meanwhile, just saying “nope, can’t do that” until the players have the proper mastery allows the fight to be designed with a single “base model”. there won’t be a range of players, power-wise, to take into account.
as for the achievement, i doubt they’ll do something like that, because i don’t see them allowing you to “turn off” masteries.
My point is that if there are a lot of hard gates I will be forced to progress a specific line to do content (I likely will anyways with a soft gate just because I am not at the top of my game.) With soft gates you can attempt it it may be possible but you will want to pull your hear out afterwords. This will allow someone to still do content. Possibly with help of those that have the line.
For example the difficulty of a mob designed to take advantage of the mastery system could be the equivalent of soloing two champions. It is possible but for the normal player they will take the mastery route so they actually can complete it taking the champion down to two veteran difficulty.
if the system is well designed, then getting through the gate would be part of the content, just like the first half of a zelda dungeon, when you still don’t have the item that solves most puzzles, isn’t wasted just because you need the item to do the other half.
LegendaryMythril/Zihark Darshell
But yeah, if it’s “get the rockets, and then kill 500 enemies before you can unlock the doors with them,” then that would be annoying more than fun.
I hope ANet paid close attention to using missiles to unlock doors in the first Metroid, actually. There’s a method to how they did it that I’m hoping they learned from.
When you first get the missiles, you get 5. That’s it, that’s all you can hold. That’s also enough to unlock a red door, the barrier they’re supposed to get you through. But, it’s only just enough, so if you’ve been using them, sometimes you have to stop and fight a bit to restock before you can open a door.
Then, as you play, you start finding more missile boosters. Soon you can carry 10, then 15, and so on. You can use them more freely, and rarely have to stop to restock before you can open a door. In other words, you get better at using missiles just by playing, once you’ve unlocked them the first time.
That’s the lesson I hope ANet learned for this. The starting ability you get from a basic Mastery should be enough to get you further, and no more. Then, leveling up that Mastery should make it easier and more convenient to use, so you can make better use of the ability as you play, until it finally becomes a standard part of how you go about things.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
But yeah, if it’s “get the rockets, and then kill 500 enemies before you can unlock the doors with them,” then that would be annoying more than fun.
I hope ANet paid close attention to using missiles to unlock doors in the first Metroid, actually. There’s a method to how they did it that I’m hoping they learned from.
When you first get the missiles, you get 5. That’s it, that’s all you can hold. That’s also enough to unlock a red door, the barrier they’re supposed to get you through. But, it’s only just enough, so if you’ve been using them, sometimes you have to stop and fight a bit to restock before you can open a door.
Then, as you play, you start finding more missile boosters. Soon you can carry 10, then 15, and so on. You can use them more freely, and rarely have to stop to restock before you can open a door. In other words, you get better at using missiles just by playing, once you’ve unlocked them the first time.
That’s the lesson I hope ANet learned for this. The starting ability you get from a basic Mastery should be enough to get you further, and no more. Then, leveling up that Mastery should make it easier and more convenient to use, so you can make better use of the ability as you play, until it finally becomes a standard part of how you go about things.
And that is the issue I think the OP and I have with it. They have said repeatedly that we will not have the ability to fight certain monsters. Period. Without certain masteries unlocked, it’s undo-able. I will use Liadri as an example. She is that super hard boss in the Pavilion. You could beat her your first try if you were really good. Most people needed to practice fighting her.
I don’t mind hard fights. In fact, I love hard content like Liadri. I can’t stand stuff that tells me no matter how good you are at this game you can not fight this creature that you are at because we put an arbitrary mechanic in place. I am not talking about leveling. I am talking about making me gain something by grinding in order to be able to fight it. Call it gear grind, call it mastery points. If I am at the appropriate level for content I want access to it so I can test my mettle against it. Instead, we get gated content instead of challenging content.
I would rather have content that a portion of the people in the game can’t get past if they are not good enough skill-wise to do so. They will have to practice it and practice it again until they are good enough. We won’t get that though. Instead, we will get gated areas and if something is deemed too hard it will get toned down even though those with enough skill to tackle it day 1 enjoy it because it’s such a rare thing in this game to get extremely difficult content.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
I don’t mind hard fights. In fact, I love hard content like Liadri. I can’t stand stuff that tells me no matter how good you are at this game you can not fight this creature that you are at because we put an arbitrary mechanic in place. I am not talking about leveling. I am talking about making me gain something by grinding in order to be able to fight it. Call it gear grind, call it mastery points.
Can we call it a “Queen’s Gauntlet Entrance Ticket”? As I recall, you needed those to get into the fight.
They were fairly easy to get, as I recall, but you still had to have them to do the fights. And if you ran out, you had to go get more.
As far as that goes, Liadri was fight 4 of Tier 3, right? She was effectively gated by everything before her. It didn’t matter how good you were, you had to earn the chance to fight her.
The problem isn’t stuff being gated. It’s stuff being gated badly. Wouldn’t you agree?
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
I don’t mind hard fights. In fact, I love hard content like Liadri. I can’t stand stuff that tells me no matter how good you are at this game you can not fight this creature that you are at because we put an arbitrary mechanic in place. I am not talking about leveling. I am talking about making me gain something by grinding in order to be able to fight it. Call it gear grind, call it mastery points.
Can we call it a “Queen’s Gauntlet Entrance Ticket”? As I recall, you needed those to get into the fight.
They were fairly easy to get, as I recall, but you still had to have them to do the fights. And if you ran out, you had to go get more.
As far as that goes, Liadri was fight 4 of Tier 3, right? She was effectively gated by everything before her. It didn’t matter how good you were, you had to earn the chance to fight her.
The problem isn’t stuff being gated. It’s stuff being gated badly. Wouldn’t you agree?
If it’s as easy as getting gauntlet tickets, sure. You 100% have a point. We both know it’s not though. They even cited in the blog today that it isn’t gear grind. They are right. Instead they put lipstick on a pig named “gear grind” and called it “masteries”.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
I don’t mind hard fights. In fact, I love hard content like Liadri. I can’t stand stuff that tells me no matter how good you are at this game you can not fight this creature that you are at because we put an arbitrary mechanic in place.
Why not though? Why is this a problem? You can’t fight the boss of a dungeon until you crawl through the dungeon, right? You can’t fight a Fractal final boss until you clear the other three fractals, right? This is the same thing, you can’t defeat a so-and-so or perhaps even get to the place to fight him, until you have the required mastery. There’s nothing wrong with this. It’s not like if you have the mastery it will become a cakewalk, I expect the actual fight to be quite difficult regardless, all the mastery does is require you to clear Content A before you’re allowed to do Content B.
I would rather have content that a portion of the people in the game can’t get past if they are not good enough skill-wise to do so.
While personally I strongly disagree and do not like significant skill-gates at all, I can understand this philosophy, and I imagine that there will be some difficult content in this patch from what we’ve heard, but you’re conflating two separate issues. Don’t think of it as “they made some hard content, and then a mastery that trivializes it,” think of is as “they made some hard content, but you have to earn your right to challenge it.”
I mean, I don’t expect the Mastery thing to be like a Liadri fight where the mastery makes you immune to the death rain. I instead expect it to be like you can do zero damage to the boss at all until you learn to infuse your attacks with nature magic, or like the enemy has an unavoidable toxic buildup that you need a mastery to breathe in. I don’t expect these fights to be difficult without the required masteries, I expect them to be literally impossible without cheating in some way.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I don’t mind hard fights. In fact, I love hard content like Liadri. I can’t stand stuff that tells me no matter how good you are at this game you can not fight this creature that you are at because we put an arbitrary mechanic in place.
Why not though? Why is this a problem? You can’t fight the boss of a dungeon until you crawl through the dungeon, right? You can’t fight a Fractal final boss until you clear the other three fractals, right? This is the same thing, you can’t defeat a so-and-so or perhaps even get to the place to fight him, until you have the required mastery. There’s nothing wrong with this. It’s not like if you have the mastery it will become a cakewalk, I expect the actual fight to be quite difficult regardless, all the mastery does is require you to clear Content A before you’re allowed to do Content B.
I would rather have content that a portion of the people in the game can’t get past if they are not good enough skill-wise to do so.
While personally I strongly disagree and do not like significant skill-gates at all, I can understand this philosophy, and I imagine that there will be some difficult content in this patch from what we’ve heard, but you’re conflating two separate issues. Don’t think of it as “they made some hard content, and then a mastery that trivializes it,” think of is as “they made some hard content, but you have to earn your right to challenge it.”
I mean, I don’t expect the Mastery thing to be like a Liadri fight where the mastery makes you immune to the death rain. I instead expect it to be like you can do zero damage to the boss at all until you learn to infuse your attacks with nature magic, or like the enemy has an unavoidable toxic buildup that you need a mastery to breathe in. I don’t expect these fights to be difficult without the required masteries, I expect them to be literally impossible without cheating in some way.
“I would rather have content that a portion of the people in the game can’t get past if they are not good enough skill-wise to do so. They will have to practice it and practice it again until they are good enough.”
Don’t quote me out of context next time. You left out the last sentence which changes what I said dramatically. All I have stated is my opinion on the matter. We disagree. We may even both have valid points. It doesn’t change the fact that they called out not having gear grind and instead are gating content not behind gear like most MMOs but behind another gate that doesn’t involve gear.
Leader of The Guernsey Milking Coalition [MiLk] Sanctum of Rall
“Each Mastery track is tied to a region of Tyria—they must be unlocked with Mastery points gained in that region and can only be trained in that region”
Really, ANet? Really?
Translation:
“Each Mastery track gear tier is tied to a region of raid in Tyria—they must be unlocked with Mastery points gained in that region and can only be trained in that region by running that content repeatedly”
It’s not a gear grind. OK. But it looks, sounds, and smells like a content grind. I’m withholding judgement until we have more details, but please explain why needing to rerun content to be able to participate in that content isn’t grindy.
“Each Mastery track is tied to a region of Tyria—they must be unlocked with Mastery points gained in that region and can only be trained in that region”
Really, ANet? Really?
Translation:
“EachMastery trackgear tier is tied to aregion ofraid in Tyria—they must be unlockedwith Mastery points gained in that region and can only be trained in that regionby running that content repeatedly”It’s not a gear grind. OK. But it looks, sounds, and smells like a content grind. I’m withholding judgement until we have more details, but please explain why needing to rerun content to be able to participate in that content isn’t grindy.
I’m not sure where you’re getting the idea that this is how it’s going to work, because from what I’ve read you’re a slight bit off.
First of all, there’s going to be two “regions” in the game when HoT goes live. The HoT expansion area, and the older zones. This is so that the stuff you earn in HoT doesn’t apply in the main game. I’d expect any further expansions to work the same way, so the old game isn’t crushed under the weight of new abilities.
As to gaining and training Masteries? Yes, you will have to do something to get the track you’re after unlocked. Maybe it will be a raid, maybe a normal event, maybe map completion. Once you have it unlocked, though, doing anything that would normally give your level 80 EXP will now go towards earning you the points for that Mastery.
For example, let’s invent the Mastery of “Skritt Barter”, which allows you to haggle with skritt merchants and maybe make trades with them for items they don’t normally offer. You unlock it by doing one of the events to protect the King in Skrittsburgh. Once you have it unlocked, you can then select it as the Mastery you’re working on. Now, so long as you’re in the main world (not HoT zones), your EXP will go towards this Mastery. Maybe it takes one full bar to get to rank 1, two bars to rank 2, and so on… but ANY EXP you gain is going towards this. If you go to an HoT zone, you’ll change over to working on HoT Masteries.
No grinding of any content is needed. Specific content to unlock, yes, but then any content can be used to earn Mastery ranks.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
delicate, brick-like subtlety.